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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND AGAIN.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
FOR THOSE THAT HAVE COUNTED CALIFORNIA OUT, EAT YOUR HEART OUT.
FIGHTING FOR HIS OWN POLITICAL LIFE.
HE JOINS ME FROM SACRAMENTO.
AND --
STORIES BRING US TOGETHER.
GRIEF, LOVE, AND NATURE.
I TALKED TO TURKISH BRITISH NOVELIST ABOUT HER LATEST NOVEL AND THE POWER OF STORY TELLING.
THEN --
A REPORT FROM IRAN WHERE THIS WEEK REVOLUTIONARY HARD LINER BECOMES PRESIDENT THREATENING EVEN WORSE RELATIONS WITH THE WEST.
PLUS --
I WOULD ARGUE THAT RACISM CAN AND DOES FLOURISH IN A CULTURE OF NICENESS.
WHY SHE CALLED HER NEW BOOK NICE RACISM AND THE BACKLASH THAT COMES WITH IT.
♪♪♪ POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.
THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
KU AND PATRICIA EWING, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCE.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
EVERYONE.ME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
CALIFORNIA IS ROARING BACK.
THAT IS THE VIEW OF THEIR GOVERNOR.HE'S FACING A RECALL EN THIS SEPTEMBER AND THE GOVERNOR IS TRYING TO RALLY SUPPORT.
AMID COVID SPIKING AGAIN IN THE STATE, CONTENTIOUS DEBATES ABOUT COVID, RAGING WILD FIRES AND A DROUGHT THAT'S PLAGUING NEARLY HALF THE STATE.
THE GOVERNOR IS JOINING ME NOW FROM THE STATE CAPITAL, SACRAMENTO.
CAN I TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE FACT THAT CALIFORNIA IS ONE OF AT LEAST 20 STATES THAT HAS OVER HALF ITS POPULATION VACCINATED.
WHY DO YOU THINK YOU ARE SUFFERING THIS SPIKE AGAIN?
WHY ARE WE SEEING AN INCREASE?
WE HAVE A CASE RATE THAT HAS GROWN TO 17.5%. WE'RE SEEING AN INCREASE IN HOSPITALIZATIONS, JUST SHY OF 5,000 PEOPLE NOW HOSPITALIZED.
THAT'S NOWHERE NEAR OUR PEAK, BUT IT'S SIMPLY THIS.
AND IT IS WELL KNOWN AND WELL DESCRIBED.
SO BUILDING ON THAT, THE STATISTICS SHOW THAT MORE THAN 90% OF CALIFORNIANS LIVE IN AREAS WHERE COMMUNITY SPREAD IS, QUOTE, HIGH OR SUBSTANTIAL.
SO YOU HAVE SORT OF DANCED AROUND, IF I CAN SAY, THE QUESTION OF WHETHER YOU WILL ORDER MANDATES OF ANY KIND, MASK MANDATES OR THE REST.
THE BAY AREA IS CALLING FOR IT.
WE SEE NEW YORK CITY IS CALLING FOR CERTAIN MANDATES TO GO INDOORS NOW, WHETHER IT IS RESTAURANTS AND THE LIKE.
WHY DO YOU NOT JUST COME OUT, GIVEN THE SPIKE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND GIVEN THOSE WHO ARE VULNERABLE AND JUST DECLARE CERTAIN MANDATES?
WELL, WE WERE THE FIRST STATE IN THE COUNTRY TO DO JUST THAT LAST WEEK.
IN FACT, CALIFORNIA LED THE WAY IN MANDATING THAT EVERY STATE EMPLOYEE BE VACCINATED OR SUBMIT TO WEEKLY TESTING.
BUT WE TOOK IT A STEP FURTHER THAT INCLUDED ALL HEALTH CARE WORKERS TOTAL.
WE ALSO WORK IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR WITH THE LARGEST HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS IN THE COUNTRY.
JUST THIS WEEK KAISER FOLLOWING SUIT.
SOME OF THE LARGEST EMPLOYERS IN THE WORLD FOLLOWING SIMILARLY.
AND OF COURSE THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF ORDERING ALL FEDERAL EMPLOYEES.
WE HAVE MASK MANDATES THROUGHOUT THE AREA.
AND THESE MASK MANDATES ARE THE FIRST TO DO IT FOR ALL SCHOOLS AS THEY REOPEN AS WELL.
SO WE HAVE BEEN ASSERTIVE.
WE HAVE BEEN AGGRESSIVE AND WE ARE PROUD OF WHERE CALIFORNIA STANDS.
WE'RE SOBER AND MINDFUL AND HUMBLED BY THE NATURE OF THE DELTA VARIANT IN PARTICULAR.
WHAT ABOUT THE CONTROVERSIAL NOTION OF VACCINE MANDATES?
WE HAVE SEEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DO SOME IN CERTAIN AREAS.
WOULD YOU CONSIDER DOING THAT?
AND AGAIN, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE HELD THINGS LIKE CASH TO BOOST YOU ARE REQUIRING MORE THAN, YOU KNOW, NEARLY TWO AND A HALF MILLION STATES AND HEALTH CARE WORKERS TO PROVIDE PROOF OF GIVEN THE FACT IT DOES APPEAR THAT THE WORST AFFECTED PEOPLE ARE THOSE WHO ARE UNVACCINATED, CAN YOU, WOULD YOU DO THAT?
AND IF NOT, HOW DO YOU PERSUADE NOT THE HOSTILE BUT THE HESITANT, THE VACCINE HESITANT?
WELL, WE HAVE BEEN WORKING AT A SCALE NO OTHER STATE HAS WORKED TO ADDRESS.
AS WE SUGGESTED, AND WE HAVE ASSERTED WE HAVE BEEN VERY AGGRESSIVE IN TERMS OF REQUIRING WE HAVE DIGITIZED THE CARDS.
WE HAVE BEEN VERY AGGRESSIVE WORKING WITH THE PRIVATE SECTOR IN TERMS OF EFFORTS, AND WE ARE OPEN TO DOING WHAT WE MUST IN ORDER TO STEM THE SPREAD OF THIS THAT SAID, AS IT RELATES TO THE HESITANCY, WE MADE REAL PROGRESS.THE LAST WEEK WE HAVE A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE BEING VACCINATED.
IN FACT, OVER A THREE-WEEK PERIOD, WE HAVE SEEN A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE.
THESE VACCINE LOTTERIES AND INCENTIVES MAY NOT BE EVERYBODY'S CUP OF TEA, BUT THEY HAVE WORKED HERE IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA.
WE HAVE SEEN AN INCREASE IN DISPROPORTIONATELY UNDERREPRESENTED IN TERMS OF VACCINES AND HEALTH OUTCOMES AND THAT'S IN OUR MINORITIES WHERE WE'RE STARTING TO SEE AN UPTICK, WHICH IS VERY ENCOURAGING.
76.2% IS NOT WHERE WE WANT TO BE, BUT IT IS SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER THAN MOST STATES.
WE WILL CONTINUE TO ACCELERATE OUR EFFORTS AND WE'RE WORKING WITH BARBERSHOPS AND FAITH-BASED COMMUNITIES.
MOBILE SITES, NO LONGER FIXED SITES.
WE'RE KNOCKING ON DOORS.
1.3 MILLION PHONE CONVERSATIONS.
WE'VE HAD INCENTIVES ACROSS THE SPECTRUM DOING WHAT WE CAN TO INCREASE THESE RATES.
CAN I JUST ASK YOU, THEN, ABOUT REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS?
YOU KNOW, CLEARLY THERE HAS BEEN A PRETTY CLEAR DIVISION BETWEEN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE UNITED STATES.YOU CAN SEE IT ALL THE WM HERE IN THE U.K. WHERE MANY POLITICIANS HAVE, UP UNTIL NOW, BEEN SORT OF RUBBISHING THE IDEA OF VACCINES AND TALKING ABOUT FREEDOM AND THIS AND THAT.
IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, WEEKS, REPUBLICANS AND CONSERVATIVES HAVE BEEN GETTING ONBOARD WITH THE VACCINE BANDWAGON.
INDEED, WE HAVE A SOUND BITE FROM ALABAMA'S KAY IVY.
LISTEN TO WHAT SHE SAID.
IT IS TIME TO START BLAMING THE UNVACCINATED FOLKS, NOT THE REGULAR FOLKS.
IT IS THE UNVACCINATED FOLKS THAT ARE LETTING US DOWN.
I HAVE DONE ALL I CAN DO.
I CAN ENCOURAGE YOU TO DO SOMETHING, BUT I CAN'T MAKE YOU TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.
SO THAT IS THE REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR OF ALABAMA.
THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH THE SPREAD IN THE SOUTH, OF WHAT DO YOU SAY NOW TO THEM?
AND WHAT THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO HAD THEY BEEN SAYING THAT KIND OF STUFF FROM THE
YEAH, LOOK, I'M NOT HERE TO JUDGE THE PERFORMANCE IN OTHER STATES.
EACH STATE IS CLEARLY UNIQUE AND DISTINCTIVE.FORNIA IS NOT ONLY E LARGEST STATE IN AMERICA, IT'S THE FIFTH LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE IT IS THE SIZE OF 21 STATES IN AMERICA COMBINED.
SO THE NUANCES, THE REGIONAL DIFFERENCES ARE CHALLENGING.
THAT SAID, LET'S JUST BE HONEST.
MISINFORMATION COMING FROM THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FROM THE GET GO HAS IMPACTED OUR VACCINATION RATES HERE IN THIS COUNTRY.
THAT MISINFORMATION IS BEING PROFITED BY A WELL KNOWN PUNDITS ON PARTICULAR NETWORKS THAT SIMPLY MISLED OR LIED INTENTIONALLY PEOPLE ABOUT THE EFFICACY AND SAFETY OF THESE VACCINES.
WE NEED TO CALL OUT THAT INFORMATION.S NICE TO SEE THIS N IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS WHEN THESE GUYS RECOGNIZED THAT THEIR POLITICAL FUTURES THEY BE AT STAKE TO NOW JUMP ONBOARD.
BUT YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
WHERE THE HELL HAVE THEY BEEN IN THE LAST FIVE, SIX MONTHS.
PEOPLE ARE LITERALLY DYING BECAUSE OF THAT MISINFORMATION.
AND LET'S BE CANDID.
LOOK, IT'S PRIMARILY COMING FROM THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THE UNITED STATES AND THOSE THAT BACK THE PARTY AND AMPLIFY THEIR VOICES OF THEIR LEADERS.
AND THERE ARE A FEW EXCEPTIONS.
MITCH McCONNELL, THANK YOU FOR YOUR LEADERSHIP.
BUT A FEW EXCEPTIONS AND INCREASINGLY WE'RE SEEING MORE BOLD MOVES.
BUT, AGAIN, IT IS COMING A LITTLE TOO LATE.
BUT I'M ENCOURAGED, NONETHELESS, DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT AS TIMELY AS WE HAD HOPED.
YOU KNOW, I'M STRUCK BY WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT POLITICAL FUTURES AND THEM, YOU KNOW, CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR POLITICAL FUTURES.
OBVIOUSLY YOU ARE AS WELL FIGHTING FOR YOUR OWN.
I'M GOING TO GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT, PLUS MORE CALIFORNIA SPECIFIC QUESTIONS.
BUT I DO NEED TO ASK YOU AS A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR OF THE MOST POPULUS STATE IN THE UNITED STATES, YOUR DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR COLLEAGUE CUOMO HAS JUST BEEN ACCUSED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AFTER AN INVESTIGATION OF SEXUALLY HARASSING MULTIPLE FEMALES IN STATE GOVERNMENT, FORMER STATE GOVERNMENT AND THOSE OUTSIDE STATE GOVERNMENT.
SHE'S ALSO SUGGESTED THAT HE HAS VIOLATED STATE AND FEDERAL LAW.
HE HAS DENIED IT IN A PRESS CONFERENCE, JUST AS WE HAVE BEEN SPEAKING.DO YOU THINK HE SHOULD?
OR WHAT IS THE RIGHT COURSE OF
WELL OVER A YEAR AGO, I WAS VERY CLEAR AND MANY OF MY DEMOCRATIC COLLEAGUES WERE CLEAR IN EXPRESSING OUR CONCERN ABOUT THE SERIOUSNESS OF THESE ALLEGATIONS AND ALSO COMPLIMENTING AND CELEBRATING THE COURAGE OF THE WOMEN THAT CAME FORWARD, THEIR REPUTATIONS ON THE LINE.
ALL OF THAT SAID WAITING FOR THE OUTCOME OF THE INVESTIGATION, IT IS AN INTERESTING FACT THAT NOT ONLY IS THE GOVERNOR RESPONDING AS WE SPEAK, AND I HAVEN'T BEEN THE BENEFICIARY OF THAT RESPONSE, BUT NOR WAS I A BENEFICIARY OF HEARING THE PRESS CONFERENCE FROM THE AG.
WE WERE ON A CONFERENCE CALL LISTENING TO DR. FAUCI ABOUT THE SPREAD OF THE DELTA VIRUS.
SO I WANT TO WAIT UNTIL I HAVE THE BENEFIT OF THE CHALLENGE BEFORE I OPINE FURTHER.
BUT THESE ARE SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS AND DEEP RESPECT AND ADMIRATION FOR THE WOMEN THAT CAME FORWARD.
SO I REALIZE THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPECIFIC, BUT AS I SAY, THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE HAS CONCLUDED THIS MONTH'S LONG INVESTIGATION.
AGAIN, SHE HAS SUGGESTED THAT HE'S VIOLATED THE LAW, BOTH FEDERAL AND STATE.
IN FACT, SHE SAID IT.
SHE'S INTERVIEWED 179 WITNESSES, 74,000 PIECES OF SO-CALLED -- OF EVIDENCE.D APPARENTLY 11 WOMEN E COME FORWARD.
AS YOU SAY, THEY'RE BRAVE.
YOU YOURSELF HAVE ENACTED MEASURES THAT GIVE WOMEN THE CHANCE TO COME FORWARD AND COMPLAIN AND ALLOW THEM AN UNHOSTILE ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH TO ADDRESS THESE THINGS.
YOU KNOW, SO MUCH HAS BEEN MADE -- AND THIS IS, BY THE WAY, BEYOND THE ME TOO PERIOD.
IT IS A TIME PERIOD BETWEEN 2018 AND 2020 ALSO IN THE MIDST OF COVID RESPONSE.
YEAH.
I MEAN, THIS IS RESPOND SERIOUS.
IT PRETTY MUCH DEFIES --
ZERO TOLERANCE FOR THE THE BURDEN IS AS WE SPEAK, I DON'T HAVE THE BENEFICIARY OF THAT BACK AND FORTH.
BUT AS I SAID, THESE ARE SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS.
I APPLAUD THE COURAGE OF THE WOMEN.
I MEAN THAT QUITE SINCERELY.
WE HAVE ZERO TOLERANCE FOR THAT OUT IN THE STATES AND THE ALLEGATIONS IF PROVEN TRUE, AND IT SOUNDS LIKE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WAS VERY ASSERTIVE IN PROVING THEM TRUE AND THE GOVERNOR SHOULD BE HELD TO ACCOUNT.
LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE BATTLING CLIMATE, PLUS THE COVID, PLUS DROUGHT, PLUS HOMELESSNESS AND CONVICTIONS AND FIGHTING FOR YOUR OWN POLITICAL LIFE.
THERE IS A RARE RECALL THAT'S BEEN LODGED AGAINST YOU AND IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN SEPTEMBER.
WHAT ARE YOUR CHANCES?
WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU WILL BE ABLE TO PULL OUT?
BECAUSE THE POLLS WERE PRETTY MUCH, YOU KNOW, IN YOUR FAVOR FOR A WHILE.
NOW THEY SEEM TO BE DROPPING A LITTLE BIT.
THERE MAY BE SOME, YOU KNOW, ELECTION FATIGUE AMONGST DEMOCRATS.AT DO YOU HAVE TO DO N IN OFFICE?
WELL, WE HAVE GOT TO DO OUR JOB.
YOU'RE RIGHT.
WE HAVE CRISIS STACKED ON TOP OF AS IT RELATES TO CLIMATE CHANGE AND COVID SCIENCE, YOU KNOW, COME OUT HERE IN THE WEST COAST AND SEE FOR YOUR OWN EYES THE EXTREME WEATHER THAT WE'RE EXPERIENCING, THESE RECORD BREAKING HEAT DOME, THESE RECORD BREAKING FIRE SEASONS.
WE'RE ROUGHLY DOUBLE NOW THE ACRES BURNED HERE TO DATE THIS YEAR COMPARED TO THAT RECORD BREAKING YEAR LAST YEAR.
WE HAVE CHALLENGES ON THE ENTIRE WEST COAST OF THE UNITED STATES WITH AN EXTREME -- WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS MEGADROUGHT.
AND OF COURSE WE'RE STILL DEALING RESIDUALLY WITH THE CHALLENGES OF RACIAL, SOCIAL, ENVIRONMENTAL AND ECONOMIC THAT SAID, I'M REALLY PROUD OF OUR STATE AND ITS RESILIENCY.
$85 BILLION OPERATING SURPLUS.
OUTPERFORMING GERMANY, JAPAN, THE UNITED STATES AS A WHOLE.
WE ARE INDEED COMING BACK.
BUT WE HAVE DISPARITIES, HOMELESSNESS, COST OF HOUSING.
ALL THOSE THINGS NEED TO BE ATTENDED TO.
WE ATTENDED TO BEATING THIS REPUBLICAN-BACKED RECALL WHOSE PRINCIPAL SPONSOR WANTS TO MICROCHIP IMMIGRANTS.
THIS IS THE SIXTH RECALL EFFORT IN 30 MONTHS I HAVE BEEN IN IT IS BACKED BY ALL THE FOLKS THAT WERE OUT THERE ON JANUARY 6th AND OF COURSE BACKED BY MANY MEMBERS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ITSELF, NEWT GINGRICH AND THE WHOLE CREW OF THEM, DEVIN NUNES.
IT IS A POWER BACK.
WE WILL DEFEAT IT AND CONTINUE TO DO GOOD WORK FOR THE PEOPLE IN THIS STATE REGARDLESS OF THEIR POLITICAL STRIPES.
BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO.
AND ONE OF THE PRINCIPAL SPONSORS, IN FACT, THE LEADING REPUBLICAN RUNNING AGAINST YOU IS A TALK SHOW HOST, CONSERVATIVE LARRY ELDER.
HE TOLD A LOCAL NEWS STATION THAT HE BELIEVES IN CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT HE'S NOT SURE IT'S PLAYING A ROLE IN CALIFORNIA'S WORSENING FIRES.
HE'S BLAMING MISMANAGEMENT FROM YOU, FROM YOUR OFFICE SAYING YOU HAVEN'T TAKEN CARE ENOUGH OF, YOU KNOW, OF THE FORESTLAND AND ALL THE REST OF IT AND ALSO THEY'RE BLAMING YOU FOR SO-CALLED COVID MISMANAGEMENT AND IMPOSING TOO MANY RESTRICTIONS.N THE FIRES, GIVENE IN COVID, WHAT WOULD YOU ANSWER TO THAT?
WELL, LOOK, OUR HEALTH OUTCOMES OUTPERFORM THE REST OF THE COUNTRY IN TERMS OF COVID, INCLUDING STATES THAT HE TENDS TO REVERE, TEXAS AND FLORIDA, INDIANA.T ONLY DID OUR HEALTH OS OUTPERFORM, OUR ECONOMIC CONDITION, OUR GDP CONTRACTED A MORE MODEST RATE THAN THOSE STATES IN THE U.S. AS A WHOLE AS IT RELATES TO FOREST MANAGEMENT, WE PUT RECORD INVESTMENT IN VEGETATION MANAGEMENT, FUEL REDUCTION, PREPOSITION AND ASSETS, MORE TECHNOLOGY AND MORE PROGRESSIVE STRATEGIES TO DEAL WITH THESE WILD FIRES.
IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE.
YOU ARE SEEING THEM ALL THROUGHOUT THE WEST COAST OF THE UNITED STATES, NOT UNIQUE TO CALIFORNIA.
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE FOLKS THAT ARE RUNNING IN THIS RECALL, NOT RUNNING -- I'M NOT RUNNING AGAINST ANY OF THEM.
THEY'RE RUNNING AGAINST THEMSELVES.THERE IS 46 OF THEM.
I MEAN, YOU CAN'T MAKE UP THEIR POSITIONS ON THE CLIMATE.
THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN CLIMATE SCIENCE.THAT SIMILAR INDIVIDUALU REFERENCED WANTS TO LEAD OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING IN CALIFORNIA AND SPEW MORE TOXICITY INTO OUR AIR AND POLLUTE THE ENVIRONMENT.
THIS IS A SERIOUS MOMENT IN CALIFORNIA.D I WOULD ARGUE AMERN HISTORY.THE VALUES WE HOLD DEARE STATE OF CALIFORNIA ARE ON THE BALLOT.
CLIMATE SCIENCE IS ON THE BALLOT.OUR HEALTH POLICIES, OUR IMMIGRATION POLICIES ARE ON THE BALLOT ON THE 14th.
THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO STOP THIS RECALL AND GET DEMOCRATS ENGAGED IN RECOGNIZING WHAT'S AT STAKE INCLUDING OUR NATIONAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO RECOGNIZE THE IMPERATIVE OF KEEPING THIS STATE ON TRACK.
A LOT AT STAKE, INDEED.
GOVERNOR NEWSOM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
> WE'RE TUNING NOW TO IRAN WHERE PRESIDENT-ELECT ABRA HIM RA HEESY IS ABOUT TO TAKE OFFICE.
HE WAS ELECTED AHEAD OF THURSDAY'S INAUGURATION.
HE'S A MUCH MORE HARD LINE REVOLUTIONARY ANTI-WESTERN POLITICIAN THAN THE OUTGOING POLITICIAN, RAHANIT.
WHAT IS AT THE TOP OF HIS TO DO LIST AND WHETHER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WILL BE ABLE TO NEGOTIATE A DESIRED RETURN TO THE IRAN NEW CLEAR DEAL WITH IM.
IRAN'S POLITICAL TRANSITION IS NEARLY COMPLETE AS THE INCOMING HARD LINE PRESIDENT IS OFFICIALLY ACCEPTED BY SUPREME LEADER.
VOWING TO TRY TO GET SANCTIONS ON IRAN LIFTED BUT NOT COOPERATE WITH COUNTRIES LIKE THE U.S.
WE WILL DEFINITELY SEEK TO ELIMINATE AND LIFT THE TYRANNICAL SANCTIONS, HE SAID.
WE WILL NOT MAKE THE PEOPLE'S LIVELIHOOD CONDITIONAL.
WE WILL NOT TIE ALL THESE THINGS TO FOREIGNERS.
WE WILL DEFINITELY PURSUE THE MATTERS THAT ARE IMMEDIATE ISSUES FOR US AND WE ARE FACING TODAY.
IRAN FACES A MULTITUDE OF IMMEDIATE ISSUES.
THE ECONOMY CONTINUES TO STRUGGLE AS TOUGH SANCTIONS PUT IN PLACE BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CONTINUE TO TAKE THEIR TOLL.
WATER SHORTAGES HAVE RECENTLY LED TO DEMONSTRATIONS.
SOME OF THEM VIOLENT IN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.
WITH IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER SAYING HE UNDERSTANDS THE PROTESTERS AND THAT THEIR DEMANDS NEED TO BE ADDRESSED.
RAHISI VOWING TO TACKLE THE
THESE MATTERS HAVE BEEN DETECTED.SURE THE PEOPLE THAT TE SOLUTIONS HAVE BEEN DELINEATED, AND WE HAVE BENEFITTED FROM THE VIEWS OF EXPERTS AND SCHOLARS, AND THIS WILL BE URGENTLY DEALT WITH.
THE U.S., ISRAEL AND THE U.K.
ARE BLAMING IRAN FOR THE DRONE ATTACK ON THE ISRAELI LINKED TANKER MERCER STREET, AN ATTACK THAT KILLED TWO SAILERS FROM BRITAIN AND ROMANIA.
WE ARE IN VERY CLOSE CONTACT, IN COORDINATION WITH THE UNITED KINGDOM, ISRAEL, ROMANIA AND OTHER COUNTRIES.
AND THERE WILL BE A COLLECTIVE RESPONSE.
IRAN DENIES THE ALLEGATIONS AND IS WARNING AGAINST ANY RETALIATION.
THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION SAYS IT WILL GET TOUGHER ON THE U.S., WHILE NEGOTIATIONS ARE CONTINUING TO TRY TO REVIVE THE NEW CLEAR AGREEMENT.
RAHISI SHOT DOWN ANY DIRECT TALKS WITH WASHINGTON.
WHEN ASKED IF HE WOULD SPEAK WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN, HE SIMI SAID NO.
NOT A GOOD SIGN.
THAT WAS FRED WHO IS JOINING ME NOW LIVE.
FRED, FOR A WHILE IT SEEMED THAT THIS NUCLEAR DEAL WAS GOING TO, YOU KNOW, RESTART.
NOW, IT SEEMS, THAT IT'S QUITE DICEY, THAT IT MAY NOT HAPPEN.
AND IRAN IS GATHERING UP MORE IN RICH URANIUM SINCE TRUMP'S ACTION OF PULLING OUT OF THIS WHAT IS THE FEELING THERE ABOUT THIS DEAL HAPPENING?
I THINK THE FEELING IS GETTING WORSE, THAT THE U.S.
COULD RE-JOIN THE DEAL AND THAT THE IRANIANS WOULD COME BACK INTO FULL COMPLIANCE.
ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS I HAVE HEARD ON THE GROUND HERE SPEAKING TO ANALYSTS CLOSE TO THE POWER CENTER HERE, THEY SAID THAT THE THING THEY WERE HOPING FOR IS THAT WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN TOOK OFFICE IS HE WOULD BRING THE U.S. ALMOST IMMEDIATELY BACK INTO THE NEW CLEAR AGREEMENT.
HE WOULD DO IT SIMILARLY AS THE U.S. DID WITH THE PARIS CLIMATE AGREEMENT.
LIKE SOME OF THE SUNSET CLAUSES HAVE MOVED ON, DESPITE THE FACT THAT IRAN HAS MORE ENRICHED URANIUM AND THE JUST WANTS OTHER THINGS TALKED ABOUT IN THE FUTURE LIKE IRAN'S BALLISTIC MISSILE PROGRAM, SOME OF IRAN'S ACTIONS HERE IN THE MIDDLE EAST SPECIFICALLY AS WELL.
THE IRANIANS ARE NOW SAYING, WITH EVERY DAY THAT PASSES, IT BECOMES MORE DIFFICULT FOR THE TWO SIDES TO COME TO AN AGREEMENT.
WHAT YOU HAVE HAD SO FAR IS YOU HAVE HAD THE NEGOTIATORS FROM THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE NEGOTIATORS FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION INDIRECTLY ESSENTIALLY SPEAKING TO EACH OTHER IN VIENNA.
NOW YOU HAVE A NEW ADMINISTRATION COMING IN HERE.
AND THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT THERE WILL BE MORE HITCHES.
ON THE OTHER SIDE, YOU HAVE A U.S. SIDE SAYING, YEAH, THEY BELIEVE THEY WANT TO COME BACK TO THE NEW CLEAR AGREEMENT.
BUT THEY SAY THE TALKS CAN'T GO ON FOREVER.
SO WHILE THE LAST TIME THAT I WAS HERE, WHICH WAS RIGHT WHEN THE ELECTION WAS HAPPENING IN IRAN, THERE WAS A LOT OF CONFIDENCE THAT THE DEAL WAS GOING TO TAKE PLACE, THAT IT WAS GOING TO COME BACK.
NOW I WOULD SAY THERE IS A LOT LESS CONFIDENCE HERE IN TEHERAN THAT THE DEAL WILL HAPPEN.
THE WINDOW SEEMS TO BE CLOSING.
AND, FRED, I NEED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE, YOU KNOW, THE MOOD ON THE STREET, SO TO SPEAK.
THERE IS AN UNPRECEDENTED AMOUNT OF STRESS AMONGST THE PEOPLE THERE.
HUGE PROTESTS.
YEAH.
THEY'RE NOT AFRAID TO COME OUT AND DEMONSTRATE.
RAHISI IS A REAL HARD LINER, A VIOLATOR OF HUMAN RIGHTS ACCORDING TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND THREATENING TO PUT THE PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY 40 YEARS BACK INTO THOSE DARK REVOLUTIONARY DAYS.
WHAT ARE THE PEOPLE SAYING TO YOU ABOUT WHAT THEY FEAR WILL HAPPEN, YOU KNOW, SOCIALLY, NOT JUST WHEN IT COMES TO FOREIGN POLICY?
WELL, RIGHT NOW, WITH WHEN WE GO OUT AND WE TALK TO PEOPLE HERE ON THE GROUND, THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY FOR THEM, NUMBER ONE CONCERN THAT PEOPLE HAD IS DEFINITELY VERY MUCH THE ECONOMY.
OF COURSE THERE IS A LOT OF SOCIAL ISSUES AS WELL.
BUT THE ECONOMY RIGHT NOW IS ON A LOT OF PEOPLE'S MINDS.
THE PAST THREE YEARS AND FOUR YEARS UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ESPECIALLY SINCE THOSE BIG SANCTIONS CAM INTO EFFECT, THE MAXIMUM PRESSURE CAMPAIGN, THOSE HAVE HURT A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE IN THE COUNTRY.
EVEN LARGE PARTS OF THE MIDDLE CLASS HAVE BEEN HURT BY THE FACT THESE SANCTIONS WERE IN PLACE.
YOU ADD TO THAT THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE A MASSIVE COVID OUTBREAK, ONE WAVE AFTER THE NEXT GOING THROUGH THIS COUNTRY MAKING IT VERY, VERY DIFFICULT FOR BUSINESSES TO REOPEN.
BUT OF COURSE ALSO A BIG PUBLIC HEALTH RISK AS WELL.
THOSE ARE THINGS OF COURSE THE PEOPLE SAY THIS NEW ADMINISTRATION, THEY KNOW HOW CONSERVATIVE IT IS, DEFINITELY HAS TO DEAL WITH IT.
HE UNDERSTANDS HE HAS A BIG TASK ON HIS HAND.
IT WAS QUITE INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU HAD EVENTS TODAY WHEN HE WAS ACCEPTED BY THE SUPREME LEADER.
HE SAID HE UNDERSTANDS THAT CORRUPTION NEEDS TO BE FOUGHT HERE IN THIS COUNTRY.
BUT HE ALSO UNDERSTANDS THAT, YES, THEY NEED TO WORK TOWARDS GETTING RID OF THE SANCTIONS.
AT THE SAME TIME ALSO VERY MUCH REPAIRING THIS COUNTRY'S ECONOMY AND THEN GOING FROM THERE.
RIGHT NOW IT CERTAINLY IS A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT ECONOMIC SITUATION HERE IN THIS COUNTRY AND ONE THAT, AS LONG AS THE SANCTIONS ARE IN PLACE COULD BE VERY HARD TO MEND.
FRED, THANKS.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR THAT REPORT FROM TEHERAN.
> NOW WE TURN TO NOVELIST WITH A NEW BOOK 'THE ISLAND OF MISSING TREES.'
IT IS A TALE OF LOVE AND WAR.
SHE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM LONDON.
WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
AND YOUR NEW BOOK IS CAUSING A LOT OF WAVES, A LOT OF GOOD RECEPTION AND GOOD REVIEWS, MAGICAL STORY TELLING, AS USUAL.
BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU TO TELL ME ABOUT THE TREES AND THE NATURE AND THE NATURAL WORLD THROUGH WHICH YOU TELL THIS STORY.
WHAT MADE YOU FOCUS ON THAT?
I HAVE BEEN WANTING TO WRITE ABOUT CYPRUS FOR A LONG TIME NOW.
BUT I COULDN'T DARE BECAUSE IT IS A DIFFICULT STORY.
IT IS A VERY EMOTIONAL STORY AND THE WOUNDS ARE NOT HEALED YET.
SO I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO APPROACH THE STORY UNTIL I FOUND THE FIG TREE, THE VOICE OF THE FIG TREE.
AND WHAT BROUGHT ME CLOSER TO THE TREE IS LIKE MANY PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE PANDEMIC AND THE LOCKDOWN, I ALSO BEGUN TO RETHINK ABOUT MY OWN RELATIONSHIP WITH NATURE, THOSE MOMENTS SITTING UNDER A TREE READING A BOOK, I FELT THE NEED TO RECONNECT.
AND THAT GAVE ME THE IDEA INTO THE STORY OF THE FIG TREE.
SO I'M GOING TO GET BACK TO THE TREES IN A MOMENT.
BUT YOU BROUGHT UP CYPRUS AND WHERE YOUR STORY IS SET.
SO TELL US, TELL THE VIEWERS ABOUT CYPRUS BECAUSE IT IS CLEARLY STILL -- I THINK IT IS THE ONLY DIVIDED CAPITAL IN EUROPE, THE CAPITAL OF CYPRUS BETWEEN GREEK AND TURKEY.
CIVIL WAR OF THE '70s STILL HAS NOT BEEN RESOLVED.
SO JUST SET THE SCENE FOR US ABOUT CYPRUS AND YOUR MAIN CHARACTERS. INDEED.
THIS IS A DIVIDED ISLAND AND THE DIVISION AND THE VERY COMPLEX HISTORY, CLASHING NATIONALISMS.
I THINK THE STORY I'M HOPING MIGHT ALSO RESONATE WITH ANYONE WHO COMES FROM TROUBLED PASTS AND DIVIDED LANDS.
BASICALLY, THIS IS A NOVEL ABOUT INTERGENERATIONAL MEMORY AND TRAUMA.
I THINK I DO BELIEVE IN INHERITED PAIN.
I KNOW IT DOESN'T SOUND VERY SCIENTIFIC.
BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THE STORIES AND SILENCES THAT RUN IN OUR FAMILIES SOMEHOW SHAPE US.
AND I HAVE MET MANY IMMIGRANT FAMILIES OR FAMILIES IN EXILE OR FAMILIES COMING FROM DIFFICULT PASTS IN WHICH THE FIRST GENERATION BEARS THE MEMORIES.
THE SECOND GENERATION IS BUSY ADOPTING, FINDING THEIR FEET, BELONGING.BUT IT IS THE THIRD OE FOURTH GENERATIONS, THE YOUNGEST IN THE FAMILIES THAT ARE DIGGING INTO THE MEMORIES OF THEIR THEY WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THEIR IDENTITY.
SO THE STORY PARTLY TAKES PLACE IN LONDON WITH AIDA, WHO IS THE CHILD OF GREEK AND TURKEY.
AND THERE IS SO MANY THINGS SHE NEVER HEARD ABOUT.
AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK THIS IS A BOOK ABOUT RENEWAL, NATURE ECOLOGICAL THINKING AND ECOCONSCIOUSNESS.'S TALK ABOUT T OF INHERITED TRAUMA AND GENERATIONAL TRAUMA THAT YOU DO FOCUS ON.
SO AIDA IS THE DAUGHTER IN THIS NOVEL.
HER PARENTS ARE -- IT'S ALMOST ROMEO AND JULIET.
THEY'RE FROM DIFFERENT SIDES AND THAT CAUSES A HUGE AMOUNT OF DRAMA AND THIS FORBIDDEN LOVE STORY, ET CETERA.
TALK TO US ABOUT -- ABOUT THAT.
AND THEN I WANT TO READ YOU A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT IT.
THEY'RE VERY DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES.I THINK THEY'RE BD IN HEALING.
THEY WANT TO HEAL THEIR DIVIDED ISLANDS.
AND THEY UNDERSTAND THE PAIN.
BUT COSTAS DOES THAT WITH CONNECTIONS THROUGH NATURE AS A BOW TANNIST.
BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE, SHE IS INVOLVED ON COMMENTING ON MISSING PERSONS, WHO IS SO IMPORTANT UNDER UNITED NATIONS.
THEY ARE WORKING TOGETHER IN A WAY TO UNBURY THE BONES OF THE DEAD, OF THE MISSING.
NOT IN ORDER TO REVIVE ALL THE ANIMOSITIES, BUT TO GIVE THE DIG DIGNITY, A PROPER BURIAL, FUNERAL AND THE FAMILIES A SENSE OF CLOSURE.
I THINK SIMILAR TRAJECTOIES HAVE BEEN EXPERIENCED IN COUNTRIES AFTER THE GENOCIDE.
SO DIGGING INTO THIS PAST IS AN IMPORTANT METHOD THROUGHOUT THE BOOK.
IT IS A LOVE STORY.
IT IS A FORBIDDEN LOVE STORY IN A WAY.
BUT IT IS ALSO THE STORY OF, YOU KNOW, HOW DO WE CARRY OUR MEMORIES?
IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE COEXISTENCE AND RENEWAL AND LOVE?
SO LET'S GET BACK TO THE FIG TREE AND THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK, MISSING TREES.
BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW HOW IT REFLECTS ON THIS WAR AND THIS LOVE STORY.
BUT PARTICULARLY I WOULD LIKE YOU TO READ A PASSAGE.
I THINK WE HAVE ASKED YOU TO READ FROM PAGE 45 TO 46 ABOUT THE THROWS FROM THEIR OWN PERSPECTIVE.
INDEED.
THANK YOU.
HUMANS WALK BY US EVERY DAY.
THEY SIT AND SLEEP, SMOKE AND PICNIC IN OUR SHADE.
THEY PLUG OUR LEAVES AND GORGE THEMSELVES ON OUR FRUIT.
WHEN THEY BECOME OLDER AND MORE CRUEL, THEY CARVE THEIR LOVER'S NAME ON OUR TRUNK AND VOW ETERNAL LOVE.
THEY WEAVE NECKLACES OUT OF OUR NEEDLESS AND PAINT OUR FLOWERS INTO ART.
THEY SPLIT US INTO LOGS TO HEAT THEIR HOMES AND SOMETIMES THEY CHOP US DOWN JUST BECAUSE WE OBSTRUCT THEIR VIEW.
AND IT GOES ON, OBVIOUSLY, BUT IT IS REMARKABLE.
AND THERE IS A LOT OF LITERATURE CERTAINLY UNDER COVID ABOUT TREES, ABOUT THE NATURAL WORLD.
SUDDENLY THE WORLD BEGAN TO, YOU KNOW, I GUESS, REALLY VALUE THE POWER OF BOTONY, THE POWER OF THE OUTDOORS CERTAINLY DURING I KNOW THIS WAS WRITTEN NOT PARTICULARLY AT THAT TIME, BUT WHEN DID THAT STRIKE YOU?
I REALLY THINK WE SPOKE WITH THE PANDEMIC BUT OF COURSE CLIMATE CRISIS AS WE ARE SPEAKING OUR PLANET.
OUR ONLY HOME IS BURNING AND WE HAVE NO TIME TO LOSE.
THERE ARE WILD FIRES GOING IN ON IN TURKEY.
TODAY A VIDEO WAS RELEASED WITH THE SOUNDS, THE SCREAMS ALMOST OF ANIMALS DYING IN WILD FIRES.
WE TEND TO FORGET THAT WE ARE NOT THE OWNERS OF THIS PLANET.
WE ARE NOT ABOVE ALL OF THE CREATURES.
I THINK WE HAVE TO RECONNECT WITH OUR EARTH, OUR NATURE AND WE NEED A BIT MORE HUMILITY, YOU KNOW?
AND WE HAVE NO TIME TO LOSE.
SO I BELIEVE WE ARE AT A MAJOR CROSS ROAD AS THE CLIMATE AND EK LOGICAL CRISIS IS DEFINITELY ACCELERATING.
AND, AGAIN, YOU DO WRITE SO MUCH ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ISSUES THAT FACE US TODAY THROUGH ALL OF THE VEHICLES AND METAPHORS THAT YOU PARTICULARLY EMPLOY TO SUCH -- TO SUCH EFFECT.
BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR OWN LIFE BECAUSE A LITTLE BIT OF AIDA'S STORY AND COSTAS IS A LITTLE BIT A METAPHOR OF YOUR OWN LIFE.
YOU AND YOUR PARENTS LEFT TURKEY, CAME TO LONDON.
YOU SAID IN ONE INTERVIEW ABOUT WRITING, I STARTED WRITING FICTION WHEN I WAS VERY YOUNG.
NOT BECAUSE I WANTED TO BE AN AUTHOR BUT BECAUSE I THOUGHT LIFE WAS REALLY BORING.
I NEEDED BOOKS IN ORDER TO STAY SANE.
TO ME, STORY LAND WAS MUCH MORE COLORFUL AND ENTICING THAN THE REAL WORLD.
THE DESIRE TO BE A WRITER CAME ONLY IN MY 20s.
I LOVE THAT.
EXPAND ON THAT.
LIFE WAS BORING FOR YOU AS A KID.
YEAH.
IT WAS.
IT WAS QUITE BORING.
I WAS AN ONLY CHILD RAISED BY A SINGLE MOTHER, A WORKING MOTHER.
IN A WAY, I WAS RAISED BY TWO WOMEN, MY MOTHER AND MY GRANDMOTHER.
IT WAS A MATRIARCHAL HOUSE BUT IN A VERY CONSERVATIVE PLACE, AS YOU POINTED OUT, I DID LIVE IN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, CITIES.
BUT THERE WERE MIGRATIONS, AND I THOUGHT LIFE WAS QUITE BORING.
BOOKS REALLY OPENED UP A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORLD FOR ME, GAVE ME OTHER POSSIBILITIES.
AND FOR THAT I WILL ALWAYS BE GRATEFUL.O BOOKS.
THE DESIRE TO BECOME AN AUTHOR CAME TO ME MUCH LATER.
BUT ALL THESE ISSUES I COVER IN THE BOOK, WHETHER IT IS BELONGING, NONBELONGING, EXILE, ROOTS BEING UPROOTED, RE-ROOTED OR ROOTED, THESE ARE ISSUES THAT I HAVE VERY CLOSE TO MY HEART.
SO THINKING ABOUT TREES ALSO HELPED ME TO CONNECT WITH PERHAPS MY OWN JOURNEYS IN LIFE.
AND, FINALLY, YOU KNOW, LANGUAGE IS REALLY IMPORTANT AND WHAT LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK AND COMMUNICATE AND WORK IN.
YOU ARE TURKISH BY BIRTH AND YOU HAVE WRITTEN MOST OF YOUR BOOKS IN THAT LANGUAGE, IN TURKISH.
ALL THE ONES THAT HAVE BEEN READ BY WESTERNERS.
I THINK YOUR FIRST ENGLISH LANGUAGE BOOK WAS IN 2004.
YOU SAID, I STILL FIND IT EASY TO EXPRESS MELANCHOLY AND LONGING IN TURKISH, BUT HUMOR IS EASIER IN ENGLISH.
IT IS TRUE.
FOR ME IT WAS -- IT WAS A CHALLENGE, TO BE HONEST, TO START WRITING IN ENGLISH BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY I HAVE NOT BEEN RAISED IN A BILINGUAL HOUSEHOLD.
ENGLISH FOR ME IS AN ACQUIRED LIKE MANY IMMIGRANTS, I'M VERY MUCH AWARE OF THE GRAB BETWEEN THE MIND AND THE TONGUE.
THE MIND ALWAYS RUNS FASTER AND THE TONGUE IS TRYING TO CATCH UP.
THAT CAN BE INTIMIDATING.
BUT WHAT I HAVE NOTICED OVER THE YEARS IS I LOVE THE SENSE OF FREEDOM THAT COMES TO ME WHEN I SPEAK OR THINK IN ENGLISH, WRITE IN ENGLISH.
TO BE A WRITER IN TURKEY IS QUITE HEAVY.
TO BE A WOMAN WRITER OR A WOMAN NOVELIST IN TURKEY IS EVEN HEAVIER.
I THINK I NEEDED A LITTLE DISTANCE. IS LIKE TAKING A STEPK AND MAYBE OR EVEN HELPED ME TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THE COUNTRY AND THE CULTURE WHERE I WAS COMING FROM.
SO MY CONNECTION WITH EACH LANGUAGE IS VERY DIFFERENT.
WITH THE TURKISH LANGUAGE IT IS MORE EMOTIONAL.
MY CONNECTION WITH THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.EN IT COMES TO MELANCHR SORROW, THOSE THINGS ARE ALWAYS EASIER TO EXPRESS IN TURKISH.
BUT I LOVE HUMOR.
I LOVE COMPASSIONATE HUMOR.
I LOVE SATIRE.
THOSE ARE MUCH EASIER IN ENGLISH.
CAN YOU IN OUR LAST 45 SECONDS TELL US WHAT YOU ARE WORKING ON NEXT?
WHAT IS YOUR NEXT STORY?
OR IS THAT A CLOSELY GUARDED SECRET?
WHEN I FINISH I NOVEL, I DON'T IMMEDIATELY START ANOTHER ONE.
THERE IS A PENDULUM FOR ME.
I BECOME A MORE NORMAL OR SOCIAL HUMAN BEING WHEN IT IS OVER.
I READ.
I ONLY READ AND LISTEN.
I THINK AS WRITERS WE NEED TO BE GOOD WRITERS AND GOOD LISTENERS AND SEE WHAT THE UNIVERSE IS TELLING ME AND WHAT KIND OF STORY IT IS TELLING ME.
SO AT THE MOMENT, I'M JUST READING.
THAT'S A GOOD PLACE TO BE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
> OUR NEXT GUEST IS THE ANTI-RACIST EDUCATOR FAMED FOR 'WHITE FRAGILITY.'
HER WORK AIMS TO EDUCATE WHITE PROGRESSIVES ON THE PART THEY PLAY WITHIN A RACIST CULTURE.
IT IS A THEME SHE CONTINUES IN HER NEWEST BOOK 'NICE RACISM.'
HERE SHE IS EXPLAINING HER WORK AND THE CRITICISM THAT'S BEEN LEVELLED AGAINST HER, MICHELLE MARTIN.
THANKS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.
I'M SO HAPPY TO BE WITH YOU, MICHELLE.
YOUR FIRST BOOK 'WHITE FRAGILITY' IT WAS PUBLISHED JUNE OF 2018.
IT SPENT MORE THAN A YEAR ON THE BEST SELLER LISTS.
THERE WAS ANOTHER RESURGENCE OF INTEREST AFTER LAST SUMMER'S SOCIAL JUSTICE APPROACH AFTER YOUR LATEST BOOK 'NICE RACISM.'
WHAT DOES THE SECOND BOOK DO THAT THE FIRST ONE DID NOT?
WHAT WAS YOUR GOAL?
THE FIRST BOOK SET OUT TO ACCOMPLISH THE EXISTENCE OF SYSTEMIC RACISM.
THIS STARTS WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT MY READERS ARE WITH ME.
I'M NOT HAVING TO PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF SYSTEMIC RACISM AND THEY WANT A DEEPER DIVE.
THERE WAS A PROVOCATIVE QUESTION OR, EXCUSE ME, STATEMENT I MADE THAT I GET ASKED ABOUT A LOT.
AND THAT IS THAT WHITE PROGRESSIVES MAY IN FACT CAUSE THE MOST DAILY HARM ACROSS RACE.
AND THIS BOOK SET OUT TO ANSWER HOW WE DO THAT.
WHY 'NICE RACISM'? WHAT'S NICE RACISM?
I HOPE THAT IT GRABS YOUR ATTENTION BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE AN OXYMORON.
BUT IT IS THE KIND OF RACISM THAT IS BEHIND A SMILE OR THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE PRESENCE OF NICENESS OR A CULTURE OF NICENESS IS AN INDICATION OF THE ABSENCE OF RACISM.
AND I WOULD ARGUE THAT RACISM CAN AND DOES FLOURISH IN A CULTURE OF NICENESS BECAUSE CULTURE OF NICENESS TENDS TO BE ONE THAT ASSUMES THE WHITE EXPERIENCE AS UNIVERSAL.
IT'S A CONFLICT AVOIDENT CULTURE WHERE ISSUES THAT CAUSE DISCOMFORT ARE SEEN AS A BREACH IN THE SOCIAL CONTRACT.
IT TENDS TO BE MORE PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE AND JUST HARDER TO GET YOUR HANDS ON.
THERE IS MORE GASLIGHTING.
IT IS THE MORE SUBTLE END OF THAT CONTINUUM OF RACISM.
ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND STRIKING ABOUT THE BOOK IS THE VERY BEGINNING.
YOUR ARGUMENT IS YOU THINK NICE RACISM CAUSES MORE DAILY HARM TO PEOPLE OF COLOR THAN THE SORT OF OVERT, AGGRESSIVE KIND.
TELL ME WHY YOU SAY THAT NICE RACISM IS ACTUALLY COULD BE MORE PERNICIOUS.
YEAH, AND INSIDIOUS.
LET ME BE CLEAR NOT TO DOWN PLAY THE IMPACT OF REALLY EXPLICIT RACISM AND THE IMPACT OF VOTER SUPPRESSION AND THE LEGAL BLOCKING OF US BEING ABLE TO JUST ACKNOWLEDGE THE EXISTENCE OF RACISM.
IT IS A VERY, VERY SERIOUS, VERY POWERFUL AND EFFECTIVE BACKLASH.
BUT IT IS EASY TO GET YOUR HANDS ON.IT IS VERY CLEAR.
AND IT IS EASY TO AVOID PEOPLE THAT WOULD STAND BEHIND THOSE KINDS OF ACTS.
SO ON A DAILY BASIS AND SINCE WE'RE BEING DIRECT AND BLUNT, MICHELLE, YOU ARE IN A CLASSIC, WHITE PROGRESSIVE ENVIRONMENT AND INSTITUTION ON A DAILY BASIS.
YOU LIKELY DO NOT INTERACT WITH WHITE NATIONALISTS OR PEOPLE WHO WOULD PROFESS EXPLICIT RACISM.
ON A DAILY BASIS, YOU INTERACT WITH ME AND PEOPLE JUST LIKE ME.
AND THE THEME THAT I HEAR OVER AND OVER, PARTICULARLY FROM BLACK PEOPLE WHO ARE IN OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE ENVIRONMENTS IS EXHAUSTION.
AND NOT JUST EXHAUSTION FROM THEIR DAILY WORK, BUT THE EXHAUSTION FROM THAT CULTURE OF NICENESS THAT COVERS UP AND MAKES IT HARDER TO TALK ABOUT THE MORE SUBTLE -- I'M GOING TO PUT AIR QUOTES.
SUBTLE TO ME SLIGHTS AND INDIGNITIES.UNEXAMINED ASSUMPTIT YOUR QUALIFICATIONS OR HOW YOU GOT YOUR JOB OR THE RESENTMENT SIMMERING JUST UNDER THE SURFACE THAT I HEAR QUITE OFTEN FROM WHITE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT DIVERSITY HIRES OR, WE HAD TO AND THAT'S WHY.
YOU KNOW, THAT CREATES A CULTURE, TOO, THAT CAN BE DEBILITATING.
DIFFERENT EXAMPLE.
I THINK OF ONE.
YOU THINK OF ONE.
WHAT RECENTLY HAPPENED AT ESPN, THE SPORTS NETWORK WHERE A WHITE CORRESPONDENT WAS OVERHEARD MAKING COMMENTS ABOUT HER DISAPPOINTMENT THAT A BLACK COLLEAGUE OF HERS HAD A HIGH PROFILE POSITION COVERING BASKETBALL AND SHE SAID, I TOTALLY LOOK THEY NEED TO DEAL WITH THEIR DIVERSITY PROBLEMS, BUT NOT AT MY EXPENSE.
IT'S CAUSED THIS HUGE INTERNAL UPROAR.
THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN CORRESPONDENT ENDED UP LEAVING AFTER THAT.
I'M NOT PRIVY TO ALL THE INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS THAT WENT ON, BUT IS THAT AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?
I THINK IT IS A GREAT EXAMPLE BECAUSE WE HAVE A TWO-PART MOVE.
THE FIRST MOVE IS I'M ALL FOR DIVERSITY.
SO THIS ISN'T SOMEBODY COMING OUT SAYING, WE SHOULDN'T HAVE BUT THE BUT IS YOU WON'T DO IT ON MY BACK, IF YOU WILL.
NOW YOU HAVE WHITE FEMINISM, THE KIND OF RESENTMENT THAT WHITE WOMEN CAN FEEL BECAUSE PATRIARCHY IS REAL.
SEXISM AND MISOGYNY ARE REAL.
AND SOMETIMES OUR RESENTMENT ABOUT THAT, OUR SENSE THAT WE'RE NOT BEING SEEN OR HEARD CAN TRANSLATE TO US NOT BEING OPEN TO WHERE WE'RE NOT SEEING OR HEARING SOMEBODY ELSE.
SO SHE EXPRESSED THAT RESENTMENT THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT THAT SOMEHOW YOU HAVE TO RATHER THAN SEEING IT AS AN ENHANCEMENT OR A CONTRIBUTION.
LET'S SORT OF STAY WITH THAT AS AN EXAMPLE, IF YOU DON'T WHY ISN'T SHE ALLOWED TO HAVE HER FEELINGS TOO?
WELL, OF COURSE SHE IS ALLOWED TO HAVE HER FEELINGS, BUT IT DOES TRANSLATE INTO THE CLIMATE.
IT'S GOING TO COME OUT IN SOME KIND OF WAY.
IF I AM YOUR COWORKER, AND I BASICALLY RESENT YOU AND SEE YOU AS KIND OF TAKING SOMETHING THAT IS INHERENTLY MINE, YOU ARE GOING TO FEEL THAT FROM ME.
IT'S GOING TO IMPACT THE WORKPLACE.
IT IS GOING TO -- I WILL PROBABLY UNDERMINE YOU IN WAYS YOU MIGHT NOT BE AWARE I'M DOING SO.
AND I'M PRETTY SURE, AND YOU CAN CHECK ME IF I'M WRONG, THAT YOU CAN FEEL THAT FROM ME, RIGHT, AND THAT IT IMPACTS YOU AS YOU DO YOUR JOB.
IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE YOUR BOOKS FOR SOME PEOPLE, OBVIOUSLY THEY HAVEN'T BEEN BEST SELLERS FOR AS LONG AS THEY HAVE FOR NO REASON.
OBVIOUSLY SOME PEOPLE FEEL LIKE, YEAH, IT JUST BRINGS A SENSE OF PEACE.IT IS COMFORTING.
YOU REALIZE, OH, I'M NOT CRAZY.
I REALLY AMEX PEERNSING THESE THINGS.
BUT FOR SOME PEOPLE, THEY SEEM TO FIND IT INFURIATING.
I'M CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK IS BEHIND THAT FURY.
YEAH.
IF YOU CAN'T LET GO OF THE IDEA THAT IT IS A MORAL ISSUE, YOU ARE GOING TO BE INFURIATED BY IT.
YOU ARE GOING TO THINK THAT SOMEBODY IS SAYING THAT YOU ARE AN IMMORAL PERSON AND YOU ARE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
IT IS GOING TO FEEL LIKE AN UNFAIR ACCUSATION.
I'M WITH YOU.
I FIND IT INCREDIBLY FREEING AND LIBERATING.I DON'T FIND IT AT AT ENHANCING.U KNOW, IT JUST KIND E MOVES YOU PAST ALL OF THE DEFENSIVENESS INTO A PLACE OF DEEP SELF-REFLECTION.
AND, SO, I THINK THAT'S A PIECE OF IT FOR PEOPLE HANGING ON TO THIS IDEA OF EITHER/OR.
APPARENTLY A LOT OF WHITE PEOPLE THINK THAT IF YOU CAN TALK TO BLACK PEOPLE CALMLY, YOU CAN'T BE RACIST.
YOU KNOW, THIS IDEA THAT PROXIMITY IS PROVE.
AND THIS IS ANOTHER WAY THAT I THINK NICE RACISM MANIFESTS, IS THE URGENCY THAT MANY OF US FEEL WHO ARE WHITE TO ESTABLISH AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE THAT WE'RE NOT RACIST.
AND ALL OF THE WAYS WE SEEK TO ESTABLISH THAT ARE PRETTY MUCH NOT CONVINCING.
THE EVIDENCE WE OFFER UP IS KIND OF RIDICULOUS.
LIKE WHAT?
LIKE WHAT?
LIKE I CAN'T BE RACIST.
I MARCHED IN THE '60s.
I CAN'T BE RACIST.
I HAD A BLACK ROOMMATE IN COLLEGE.
I CAN'T BE RACIST.
I WORK ON A REALLY DIVERSE TEAM.
I'M NOT RACIST.
I'M FROM BOSTON.
I SPEAK SEVERAL LANGUAGES.
I MEAN, IT DOES BEG THE QUESTION WHAT DO YOU THINK RACISM IS THAT THIS WOULD, YOU KNOW, ENSURE THAT YOU'RE FREE OF IT.
YOU KNOW, HARVEY WEINSTEIN WAS AROUND WOMEN ON THE TILE.
HE WAS MARRIED TO A WOMAN.
DOES THAT MEAN HE WASN'T MISOGYNY.
AND WHILE HE DIDN'T ASSAULT ALL WOMEN, I IMAGINE IF I WAS AROUND HIM, I WOULD PICK UP ON IT.
ON THE OTHER HAND, I HAVE TO SAY SOME OF THE MORE STINGING CRITIQUES I HAVE SEEN HAVE COME FROM PEOPLE OF COLOR.
IN TRYING TO POINT THE FINGER AT WHITE PEOPLE THAT YOU DEHUMANIZE AND FLATTEN OUT BLACK PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR, PEOPLE OF COLOR, THAT PEOPLE OF COLOR BECOME SORT OF THE MORAL AUTHORITY.
THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE THE WISE ONES.
THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE SORT OF GIFT EVERYONE WITH THEIR MORAL SENSIBILITY.
AND THAT'S KIND OF RACIST IN ITS OWN WAY.
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?
BLACK PEOPLE CAN BE JERKS, TOO?
SELF-ABSORBED, NARROW MINDED, BIGOTED JERKS, TOO.
THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN BLACK PEOPLE WHO WILL CLAIM THAT RACISM DOESN'T EXIST AND THEY RARELY EVER EXPERIENCED IT, THAT, YOU KNOW, THE PROBLEMS BLACK PEOPLE HAVE ARE BROUGHT TO THEMSELVES AND THEY WILL BE EMBRACED AND THEIR VOICES WILL BE AMPLIFIED.
I DON'T TAKE THAT AS SERIOUSLY AS I TAKE SOMEBODY WHO HAS A RECORD AND A COMMITMENT TO ANTI-RACISM CRITIQUING ME.
SO LET'S MOVE TO THOSE FOLKS.
AND ABSOLUTELY.
IT'S THE MASTERS TOOLS DILEMMA.
I'M AT A PLACE WHERE I'M WONDERING WHY ANYONE THINKS ANY ONE PERSON COULD GET THIS RIGHT AND GET THIS RIGHT BY EVERYBODY AND IS RESPONSIBLE TO GET IT ABSOLUTELY RIGHT BY EVERYONE.
OF COURSE THERE ARE GOING TO BE CRITIQUES.
AND, YES, IN A WAY I DO SEE THAT.
I'M ASKING WHITE PEOPLE TO BASICALLY DEFER AND THAT'S BECAUSE MOST OF THE WHITE PEOPLE, MY AUDIENCE, HAVE NOT OR COULD NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION: WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE WHITE?
AND IF YOU ARE IN THAT PLACE IF YOU HAVE NEVER EVEN THOUGHT DEEPLY, I DON'T THINK YOU ARE IN A POSITION TO DETERMINE WHAT IS LEGITIMATE AND WHAT IS NOT YOU KNOW, WHAT IS VALID WHAT YOU'RE SHARING ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE AND WHAT ISN'T IT.
AND, YOU KNOW, DOES IT HURT TO DOES IT HURT TO JUST LISTEN OPENLY AND CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY THAT WHAT THIS PERSON IS SHARING WITH YOU.
YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST WHITE PERSON TO WRITE ABOUT RACISM FROM A WHITE PERSPECTIVE AND TO DIRECT YOUR WRITINGS TO OTHER WHITE PEOPLE.
I'M THINKING ABOUT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
I'M JUST WONDERING WHY PEOPLE COME AT YOU SO HARD.
I WONDER IF YOU THINK GENDER IS PART OF IT.
I DO THINK GENDER IS PART OF IT.
I EXPECT MY IDEAS, AS AN ACADEMIC AND MY THEORIES AND MY ANALYSIS TO BE ENGAGED WITH AND QUESTIONED, BUT IT IS THE PERSONAL.
THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF PERSONAL VILIFICATION THAT IS NOT TYPICAL WHEN SOMEBODY WRITES A BOOK AND, YOU KNOW, MAKES A PROVOCATIVE ARGUMENT.
AND I THINK GENDER IS A PIECE OF THAT.AND I DO WANT TO SAY THAT R THE PAST FIVE YEARS THERE HAVE BEEN 32 BOOKS ABOUT RACE ON 'THE NEW YORK TIMES' BEST SELLER LIST.
AND 29 OF THEM HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY BLACK PEOPLE.
AND ONLY THREE BY PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT BLACK, AND ONE OF THEM IS ME.
A COUPLE OF THOSE BOOKS HAVE BEEN ON LONGER THAN MY BOOK.
SO IT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE THAT PEOPLE AREN'T LISTENING TO BLACK PEOPLE ON THIS TOPIC.
AND, YOU KNOW, I'M SPEAKING TO THE MAJORITY OF FOLKS WHO PERPETUATE THIS PROBLEM.
TALK TO ME, IF YOU WOULD, ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY.
AS YOU AND I WERE SPEAKING NOW, THERE HAS BEEN THIS TREMENDOUS EFFORT TO, BY SOME STATES, TO OUTLAW THE TEACHES OF ISSUES AROUND RACE AND CLASS.
MOSTLY RACE.
IN SCHOOL DISTRICTS AROUND THE COUNTRY.
I DON'T WANT TO GIVE A NUMBER BECAUSE I MAY BE WRONG BY THE TIME PEOPLE HEAR THIS.
BUT I THINK AT LEAST A DOZEN STATES ARE MOVING TO EITHER OUTLAW THE TEACHING OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY OR REGULATE HOW TEACHERS CAN TALK ABOUT RACE AND CLASS IN SCHOOL SETTINGS, TO TAKE CERTAIN BOOKS OFF THE SHELVES, FOR EXAMPLE, IN SCHOOL LIBRARIES.WHAT DO YOU THINK THA?
LET ME JUST SAY IT'S STUNNING AND TERRIFYING.
AND I THINK IT REALLY SPEAKS TO WHERE POWER LIES, THAT THAT QUICKLY ACTUAL LAWS COULD BE ON THE BOOKS.
SUMMER 2020 WAS REALLY DIFFERENT.AD BEEN A LONG TIME SE YOU SAW THAT KIND OF GALVANIZATION OF WHITE PEOPLE.
WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD THE SOUTHERN STRATEGY, WHICH IS TRIED AND TRUE.
AND CRITICAL RACE THEORY IS THE PERFECT NEW BOOGIE MAN.
RIGHT?
IT'S JUST VAGUE ENOUGH TO, YOU KNOW, SOUND SCARY.
REALLY IT JUST MEANS CRITICALLY THINKING ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF SUCH PERSISTENT RACIAL INEQUALITY.
I'M NOT A CRITICAL RACE THEORIST AND IT TRULY COMES OUT OF LEGAL SCHOLARSHIP.AM, ACCORDING TO THD OF BOOGIE MAN APPROACH, IN THAT WHAT THEY ARE REALLY TALKING ABOUT IS ANYONE WHO SAYS THAT SYSTEMIC RACISM EXISTS.
ANYONE WHO SAYS THAT OUR COUNTRY WAS BUILT ON IT.
AND IT IS IN THE FOUNDATION.
THAT IS SOMEONE WHO IS GOING TO BE LABELED A CRYSTAL RACE THEORIST.
ONE OF THE BILLS, FOR EXAMPLE, MOVING THROUGH THE TEXAS LEGISLATION SAYS THAT STUDENTS SHOULD HAVE TO TALK TO SOMEBODY IF IT MAKES THEM UNCOMFORTABLE.
WHAT IS YOUR BEST ARGUMENT?
I WOULD ASK TWO QUESTIONS.
ONE, WHO DOES IT SERVE OR WHAT DOES IT SERVE NOT TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION?
IT IS NOT NEUTRAL OR BENIGN.
WHO IS MADE UNCOMFORTABLE BY THIS CONVERSATION?
I WANT TO ASK IS THERE ANY OTHER SOCIAL ILL THAT WE WOULD ARGUE THE BEST APPROACH TO THAT SOCIAL ILL IS TO NEVER SPEAK OF IT: SUICIDE, BULLYING, EATING DISORDERS, SEXUAL ASSAULT?
WOULD WE ARGUE WE SHOULD NEVER SPEAK ABOUT THOSE THINGS?
I DON'T THINK WE WOULD.
SO THERE IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT HERE.
AND I THINK IT IS ABOUT DEEPLY VESTED INTERESTS.
I DO THINK THAT WHITE, MIDDLE AND UPPER CLASS PARENTS WHO BELIEVE THAT THEIR CHILDREN SHOULD HAVE THE BEST OF EVERYTHING ARE IN LARGE PART LEADING SOME OF THIS BACKLASH AGAINST LOOKING AT RACIAL INEQUALITY IN SCHOOLS.
RIGHT?
ANYTHING THAT WOULD CAUSE THEIR CHILDREN NOT TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE BEST WILL BE PERCEIVED AS A THREAT OR TO CAUSE THEIR CHILDREN TO FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE.
BUT RESEARCH HAS REALLY SHOWED THAT YOUNG PEOPLE DO SO MUCH BETTER WHEN THEY ARE EQUIPPED TO ENGAGE IN CONVERSATIONS LIKE THIS, WHEN THEY HAVE INFORMATION AND THEY'RE PREPARED TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD IN A WAY THAT MAKES SENSE TO THEM AND THEY CAN ACTUALLY ACT IN A WORLD.
HOW DO YOU WANT THIS BOOK TO BE USED, IF I COULD PUT IT THAT WAY?
WELL, WE DID BUILD INTO IT REFLECTION QUESTIONS.
SO AS A GUIDE TO KEEP TRYING, KEEP STRUGGLING TO STAY ENGAGED, TO FIND SOME KIND OF INSPIRATION AND SOME SENSE -- YEAH, SOME SENSE OF GUIDANCE.
RIGHT?
BECAUSE THIS IS HARD.
THIS IS HARD.
AND LET ME JUST BE REALLY CLEAR.
TWO KEY THINGS.
AS A WHITE PERSON, I LIVE, LOVE, WORK, CREATE EVERY SINGLE DAY IN A RACIST CULTURE IN WHICH I'M I AM COMFORTABLE IN A RACIST CULTURE.
I'D LIKE TO CHANGE THAT.
RIGHT?
IF THAT DISCOMFORT HELPS BRING SOME OF THAT RACISM DOWN, THEN IT'S ACTUALLY A GOOD THING.
AND AS A WHITE PERSON, I WAS NEVER MEANT TO KNOW OR LOVE BLACK PEOPLE.
LET'S BE HONEST.
WHITE PEOPLE IN LARGE PART MEASURE THE VALUE AND THE STATUS OF THEIR ENVIRONMENTS, THEIR SCHOOLS, THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS BY THE ABSENCE OF ANY SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF BLACK PEOPLE.
THAT'S PRETTY DEEP.
AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO CHALLENGE THAT AND BUILD THOSE RELATIONSHIPS AND SEE HUMANITY IN ONE OTHER IF WE CONTINUE TO LIVE IN SEGREGATION.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
THE CHALLENGING AND DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS THAT WE MUST KEEP HAVING.
> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, BILES IS BACK.
FLIPPING AND ROTATING HER WAY TO AN OLYMPIC BRONZE MEDAL ON THE BALANCE BEAM.
AFTER WITHDRAWING FROM TEAM GYM EVENTS, THE GREAT AMERICAN CHAMPION CAME BACK TO PERFORM A MODIFIED ROUTINE WITHOUT ANY OF THE TWISTTIES THAT CAUSED HER TO LOSE HER BEARINGS WHILE ON THE AIR.
GOLD AND SILVER WENT TO CHINA, BUT BILES SAID SHE WAS THRILLED TO HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN ABLE TO COMPETE AND MOUNT THE MEDAL PODIUM.
SO I HAD TO BE MEDICALLY EVALUATED EVERY DAY, AND THEN I HAD TWO SESSIONS WITH A SPORTS PSYCHOLOGIST FROM TEAM USA.
BUT I HAVE BEEN TRAINING BEAM EVERY DAY.
WE JUST LAST MINUTE DECIDED TO SWITCH THE DISMOUNT, WHICH I PROBABLY HAVE NOT DONE SINCE I WAS LIKE 12 YEARS OLD BECAUSE I HAVE ALWAYS TWISTED OFF SINCE I WAS PROBABLY 13 OR 14 JUST TO HAVE ONE MORE OPPORTUNITY TO COMPETE IN THE OLYMPICS MEANT THE WORLD TO ME.
AND GIVEN ALL THAT HAPPENED TO HER IN TOKYO, SHE CALLS THIS MEDAL EVEN MORE SPECIAL THAN THE BRONZE SHE WON IN THE SAME EVENT AT THE RIO OLYMPICS IN 2016.
I WILL CHERISH THIS FOR A LONG TIME, SHE SAID.
AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
REMEMBER, YOU CAN ALWAYS FOLLOW ME ON THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANKS FOR WATCHING ON PBS.
AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.