August 11, 2021

> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

IF YOU'RE NOT VACCINATED SHUT UP.

DON'T COMPLAIN.

THE DEADLY STR VACCINATION AND HERD IMMUNITY.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI TELLS US WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING NOW TO BEAT THIS VIRUS AND STAY ALIVE.

THEN --

ON THREE OKAY?

ONE, TWO, THREE!

TV VISIONARY NORMAN LEAR ON SITCOMS AND SOCIAL JUSTICE.

I SPEAK TO HIM AND BEN JEALOUS ABOUT THEIR ADVOCACY GROUP PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY.

ALSO AHEAD --

I'LL CONFESS I FIND REALLY TOPICS WHERE I WANT TO JUMP IN.

TALKING TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT GOING OUT ON A LIMB.

FINALLY -- SOCCER SUPERSTAR LIONEL MESSI'S EMOTIONAL MOVE TO PARIS.

> AMANPOUR & COMPANY MADE POSSIBLE BY THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILL STEIN FAMILY.

THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PB.

THANK YOU.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

WHO COULD HAVE THOUGHT SUCH A LIFE AND DEATH PUBLIC HEALTH MATTER AS GETTING VACCINATED OR NOT WOULD BECOME SUCH A HOT BUTTON POLITICAL ISSUE IN THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD?

THE SILENT MAJORITIES WHO BACKED VACCINATION ARE NOW GETTING A LOT LESS SILENT AS BITTERNESS RISES AGAINST HOLD OUTS WHO ARE PUTTING LIVES AT RISK.

DESPITAT VEILABILITY OF MANY EFFECTIVE VACCINES, DESPITE BILLIONS OF DOSES BEING JABBED INTO ARMS WITH SCARCE SIDE EFFECTS THE MAYOR OF BALTIMORE, MARYLAND CAPTURES THE ANGER AND THE FRUSTRATION OF THIS MOMENT.

NONE OF US WANT TO GO BACK TO WHAT WE WENT THROUGH THE LAST TWO TIMES AND FOR ANYONE THAT IS FRUSTRATED ABOUT WEARING A MASK AND YOU'RE NOT VACCINATED THEN LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

IT'S YOUR FAULT WE'RE GOING BACK TO HAVING AN INDOOR MASK MANDATE.

MAKE SURE FOLKS GET VACCINATED.

IF YOU'RE NOT VACCINATED, SHUT UP.

DON'T COMPLAIN.

WHILE COVID CASES ARE AT AN ALL TIME HIGH IN U.S. STATES LIKE LOUISIANA AND FLORIDA, WITH KIDS HEADING BACK TO SCHOOL, PRESENTING THE VERY REAL WORRY ABOUT THE HIGHLY CONTAGIOUS DELTA VARIANT.

AND PERHAPS OTHERS EMERGING.

NOW THE MAJORITY OF U.S. PARENTS BACK MASK MANDATES FOR STAFF AND STUDENTS NOT VACCINATED.

SO WE WELCOME DR. ANTHONY FAUCI TO THE PROGRAM FOR SOME SOUND MEDICAL ADVICE.

HE OF COURSE IS DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES AND HE IS CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO THE PRESIDENT.. FAUCI, WELCOME TO TE PROGRAM.YOU KNOW, I PLEASE BE YE WORRIED.

I KNOW MANY PARENTS ARE AT PEAK THIS IS BACK TO SCHOOL MOMENT AROUND THE CORNER.

WHAT IS THE KEY THING THAT YOU'RE FOCUSING ON IN THIS REGARD RIGHT NOW ABOUT CHILDREN?

WELL, THE BEST WAYS CHRISTIANE TO PROTECT CHILDREN ARE TO SURROUND THEM TO THE EXTENT POSSIBLE WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ELIGIBLE TO BE VACCINATED WHO ARE VACCINATED THAT WOULD BE TEACHERS, PERSONNEL IN THE SCHOOL, AND CHILDREN FROM 12 AND OLDER WHO ARE NOW ELIGIBLE TO BE VACCINATED TO GET THEM VACCINATED.

NOW, OBVIOUSLY, YOUNGER CHILDREN NOT YET APPROVED TO GET VACCINATED.E WE NEED TO PROTECT.

THAT IS THE REASON FOR OUR CDC COMING UP WITH THE RECOMMENDATION OF HAVING EVERYBODY WEAR A MASK IN SCHOOL EVEN THOSE WHO ARE VACCINATED, BECAUSE WE KNOW SHOW SEW WELL THE DETRIMENTAL EFFECTS OF HAVING CHILDREN NOT BE PHYSICALLY PRESENT IN SCHOOL.

WE KNOW THAT FROM MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT ISSUES, A VARIETY OF OTHER ISSUES AND SO IMPORTANT.

WE HAVE TO DO BOTH.

GET THEM BACK TO SCHOOL BUT WE HAVE TO DO IT SAFELY.

YOU WERE MENTIONING ISSUES ABOUT VACCINATION.IT IS JUST EXTRAORDN YOU HAVE VACCINES THAT HAVE BEEN PROVEN THROUGH HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOSES TO BE HIGHLY EFFECTIVE AND SAFE EVEN AGAINST THIS VERY TROUBLESOME DELTA VARIANT AND YET WE STILL HAVE RECALCITRANTS IN SOME AREA OF THE COUNTRY OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO GET VACCINATED.

IT IS ALMOST UNEXPLAINABLE THAT IS THE CASE.

INDEED.

THERE IS ALSO A LOT OF POLITICS AND HEALTH DATA AND SOME PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHO IS SAYING WHAT.

THAT DOES THE DATA TELL US ABOUT YOUNG CHILDREN IN THOSE STATES IN THE SOUTH WHICH ARE SEEING SPIKES?E THEY GETTING SICK?

HOW SICK?

FOR INSTANCE THE FLORIDA GOVERNOR SAYS HE IS SEEING NO DIFFERENCE IN PROPORTIONS OF ADMISSIONS.

BUT OTHERWISE THERE ARE OTHER NUMBERS THAT SAY THAT ACTUALLY THERE ARE SPIKES EVEN AMONG TELL US AND FOR PARENTS AS WELL.

WELL, THERE ARE SPIKES AMONG CHILDREN.

FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS.

FIRST OF ALL, WE'RE DEALING NOW CHRISTIANE WITH AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT VIRUS IN THE SENSE OF ITS ABILITY TO TRANSMIT HIGHLY EFFICIENTLY.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE ALPHA VARIANT, THE ONE THAT WAS ORIGINALLY IN THE UK AND NOW BECAME DOMINANT IN THE UNITED STATES THAT HAS BEEN COMPLETELY PUSHED ASIDE BY THE DELTA VARIANT WHICH HAS AN EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH CAPABILITY OF TRANSMITTING FROM PERSON TO PERSON.THE LEVEL OF VIRUS IN THL PHARNYX OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE DELTA VARIANT IS MUCH HIGHER THAN THOSE INFECTED WITH THE ALPHA VARIANT.

WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED THERE IS A GREATER CHANCE IF YOU'RE UNVACCINATED TO GET INFECTED.

THAT IS POINT NUMBER ONE.

POINT NUMBER TWO IN THE UNITED STATES WE HAVE FOR THE MOST PART DONE VERY WELL IN GETTING THE ELDERLY VACCINATED.

WE HAVE MORE THAN 85% OF INDIVIDUALS OLDER THAN 65 WHO HAVE HAD AT LEAST ONE DOSE AND THAT IS REALLY QUITE GOOD.

SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT A HIGHLY EFFICIENT VIRUS IN TRANSMISSION AND YOU LOOK AT THE RELATIVE PROPORTION OF VULNERABLE PEOPLE, RELATIVELY SPEAKING THE YOUNG ARE NOW MORE VULNERABLE BECAUSE THEY ARE IN THE COHORT WHO IS UNDER VACCINATED.

12 TO 18 WHO ARE ELIGIBLE WHO ARE NOT YET VACCINATED WHEN THEY SHOULD, OR THE CHILDREN WHO ARE TOO YOUNG TO GET VACCINATED.

SO WHEN YOU LOOK ANYWHERE IN A HOSPITAL, YOU ARE SEEING A RELATIVE PROPORTION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SICK LEANING MUCH MORE TOWARD THE YOUNGER GROUP.

THAT IS NOT SURPRISING.

THE COMBINATION OF A HIGHLY EFFICIENT VIRUS IN TRANSMITTING TOGETHER WITH A RELATIVELY UNPROTECTED GROUP WHEN YOU COMPARE THEM TO THE OLDER INDIVIDUALS.

REGARDING CHERN AND PARENTS I KNOW YOU BACK A VACCINE MANDATE FOR TEACHERS.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE REALISTIC HOPE FOR THAT TO HAPPEN BUT IN SOME STATES SOME CHILDREN AND SCHOOL AUTHORITIES ARE BEING BANNED BY THE GOVERNORS AND BY THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES FROM ACTUALLY WEARING MASKS.

IS THAT EVEN A VIABLE CONCERN?

WE'RE SEEING SOME SCHOOLS JUST TAKE MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS AND MANDATE THEIR OWN MASK

RIGHT.

I MEAN, THAT TO ME IS SO DISCONCERTING, CHRISTIANE, WHEN YOU HAVE AUTHORITIES FOR REASONS THAT, I MEAN, I CAN'T EXPLAIN.

IS IT POLITICAL?

IS IT LIBERTARIAN?

WHAT IS IT?

I MEAN, HOW COULD YOU PREVENT THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES FROM DOING WHAT IT TAKES TO PROTECT THE CHILDREN?

FOR WHAT REASON IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN PROTECTING THE HEALTH OF THE CHILDREN?

AND THAT IS THE THING THAT AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW, AS YOU LED INTO IN THE INTRODUCTION, IS THE REASON FOR SUCH FRICTION AND SUCH CONFLICT HERE.

WE HAVE TO PROTECT THE CHILDREN.

WE HAVE A VACCINE THAT IS HIGHLY EFFECTIVE AND IT IS SAFE.

WE HAVE THE TOOLS WITHIN OUR OWN ARMORY TO FIGHT THIS VIRUS VERY EFFECTIVELY.ST CANNOT IMAGINE WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT THIS AS, LET'S SAY WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER.E COMMON ENEMY IS THE . LET'S NOT HAVE THE COMMON ENEMY BE ARGUING WITH EACH OTHER AND HAVING IDEOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES DICTATE WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE GOING TO GET VACCINATED OR NOT.

BECAUSE -- I THINK THE REASON YOU'RE SEEING A LOT MORE TENSION NOW, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE THE VACCINATED PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING REALIZE THAT AS LONG AS YOU HAVE AND WE DO IN THIS COUNTRY 93 MILLION PEOPLE WHO ARE ELIGIBLE FOR BEING VACCINATED WHO ARE NOT YET GETTING VACCINATED, THAT ALLOWS THE VIRUS TO CIRCULATE REGULARLY AND EASILY AND THEREFORE YOU HAVE THE POSSIBILITY OF THE EMERGENCE OF ANOTHER VARIANT THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY EVADE THE VACCINE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED WITH.

SO YOU NOT ONLY NEGATIVELY IMPACT POTENTIALLY YOUR OWN HEALTH BY NOT GETTING VACCINATED.

YOU'RE BECOMING PART OF A POTENTIAL PROBLEM THAT WOULD LEAD TO THE DEVELOPMENT OR THE EVOLUTION OF ANOTHER VARIANT.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

AND STAYING ON THE SCIENCE FOR A MOMENT BECAUSE I DO WANT TO GET TO SOME OF THESE ISSUES YOU'VE RAISED.

YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THEY'RE IMPORTANT AND LIFE AND DEATH.

DO YOU HAVE ANY ANTICIPATION OR WHEN DO YOU THINK CHILDREN UNDER 12 MIGHT BE AUTHORIZED OR A VACCINE MIGHT BE AUTHORIZED FOR CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 12?

WELL, WE'RE DOING THE CLINICAL STUDIES NOW ON WHAT IS CALLED AGE DE-ESCALATION.

WE'RE LOOKING FOR THE SAFETY AND THE ABILITY TO INDUCE A PROPER IMMUNE RESPONSE AND THE PROPER DOSE FOR THAT FOR CHILDREN FROM 11 TO 9 AND THEN 9 TO 6 THEN 6 TO 2 AND THEN 6 MONTHS TO TWO YEARS.

WE'RE WELL INTO THOSE STUDIES.

THUS FAR THINGS LOOK GOOD.

BUT THEN IT'S LEFT UP TO A REGULATORY DECISION.

WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE REGULATORY MECHANISM TO GET THE APPROVAL TO GET THESE YOUNGER CHILDREN VACCINATED?

SO WE'RE DOING THE SCIENCE.

THAT IS BEING DONE IN A QUICK PACE.

WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE REGULATORY DECISION.

I HOPE THAT IS AS WE GET INTO THE FALL, LATE FALL, EARLY WINTER.

SO THAT IS JUST AROUNE CORNER THAT IS SOME ENCOURAGEMENT.

YES.

WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER REGULATORY DECISION THAT MANY IN THE UNVACCINATED CAMP POINT TO.

THESE VACCINES HAVE ONLY RECEIVED EMERGENCY DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPECTATION THAT THOSE WHICH ARE ON THE MARKET RIGHT NOW WILL GET FULL AUTHORIZATION BY THE FDA AND MAYBE HAVE A PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON THOSE WHO CONTINUE TO SAY THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT THEM?

WE NEVER WANT TO GET AHEAD OF THE REGULATORY AGENCY BECAUSE THEN YOU WILL GET THE KIND OF PUSHBACK THAT WILL SAY YOU ARE UNDULY INFLUENCING THEM AND YOU HAVE THE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE EFFECT OF SAYING WELL MAYBE IT ISN'T SO SAFE BUT THEY APPROVED IT BECAUSE YOU PUSHED THEM.

THEY HAVE THEIR OWN PROCESS, WHICH HAS SERVED US WELL.

I BELIEVE, CHRISTIANE, THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE VERY SOON.

I CAN'T PREDICT BUT CERTAINLY HOPE WITHIN THE NEXT COUPLE WHEN YOU GET THAT IN THE NEXT COUPLE WEEKS --

WOW.

TWO THINGS ARE GOING O HAPPEN.

ONE, INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE WAITING FOR THAT FULL APPROVAL WILL SAY OKAY.

NOW I'M MORE CONFIDENT.

THEN YOU WILL ALSO HAVE THE SITUATION WHERE INDIVIDUAL ENTITIES AT THE LOCAL LEVEL WILL FEEL MORE EMPOWERED TO MANDATE.

FOR EXAMPLE, COLLEGES, UNIVERSITIES, LARGE BUSINESSES WOULD FEEL MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE IF THEY WANT TO DO A LOCAL MANDATE WHEN YOU HAVE A FULLY APPROVED VACCINE.

AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHEN IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN BUT I HOPE IT IS IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS BEFORE WE COME TO THE END OF AUGUST.

WOW.

THAT IS -- THAT WOULD BE AMAZING CERTAINLY.N I ASK YOU ABOUT ANTS AND BOOSTERS?

MANY OF THE ELDERLY WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED, YOU KNOW, ARE THEY -- IS THERE AN ISSUE?

DOES THE DATA SHOW THE ANTIBODIES LAST?

DO THEY NEED BOOSTERS?

HOW EFFECTIVE SIX MONTHS DOWN THE LINE NOW ARE SOME OF THE VACCINES ALREADY ADMINISTERED?

YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT FROM TWO STANDPOINTS BECAUSE THIS IS SOMETIMES CONFUSING.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT IMMUNE COMPROMISED PEOPLE, NAMELY THOSE WITH CANCERS, THOSE ON CHEMOTHERAPY FOR A VARIETY OF DISEASES, THOSE WHO HAVE IMMUNE DEPRESSION OF SOME SORT OR ANOTHER, THEY LIKELY NEVER GOT A GOOD IMMUNE RESPONSE TO BEGIN WITH.

IN FACT WE KNOW THEY GENERALLY DON'T HAVE A GOOD IMMUNE RESPONSE.THEY THINK THEY SHOULDE ADDITIONAL BOOST SOONER RATHER THAN LATER AND I HOPE THAT IS GOING TO BE VERY SOON.

THEN THERE IS THE QUESTION THAT YOU ASKED ABOUT OTHERWISE NORMAL PEOPLE OF VARIOUS AGES.

ARE WE SEEING AN ATTENUATION OF THE IMMUNE RESPONSE AS WELL AS IN THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE WHICH IS COMPLICATED BECAUSE NOW, TODAY, MOST OF US ARE DEALING WITH A DELTA VARIANT.

THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS WE ARE NOW RAPIDLY DOING THE STUDIES TO TRY AND DETERMINE TO WHOM, WHEN, AND WHAT KIND OF BOOSTER WE'LL BE DOING.

YOU'LL HEAR ABOUT THAT REASONABLY SOON.

IF YOU LOOK AT STUDIES FROM ISRAEL, FROM THE UK, FROM OTHER PLACES AND EVEN THE COMPANY STUDIES, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THE PROTECTION OVER TIME DOES ATTENUATE.AL QUESTION IS WHEN DU GET TO THE POINT WHERE IN AN ORDERLY FASHION IF YOU HAVE TO BOOST HOW DO YOU DO THAT AND IN A WAY THAT IS ORDERLY AND FAIR?

ALL OF THESE THINGS CHRISTIANE ARE UNDER VERY ACTIVE DISCUSSION RIGHT NOW.

AND OF COURSE IF YOU BROADEN IT OUT FROM THE UNITED STATES OR SOME OF OUR RICH, WESTERN DEVELOPED NATIONS, THE FAIRNESS ISSUE IS ALREADY BEING CHALLENGED BY THE W.H.O. WHO ARE SAYING DON'T DO BOOSTERS AS LONG AS THE REST OF THE WORLD HASN'T EVEN HAD ONE VACCINE.

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT?

YEAH.

I BELIEVE WE CAN DO BOTH.

I REALLY DO.

I LEAVE THAT THE RICH COUNTRIES INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS ALREADY DOING A LOT, WE ALREADY HAVE NOW A HALF A BILLION DOSES THAT ARE GOING TO GO OUT PLUS 80 OF OUR OWN SUPPLY PLUS 4 BILLION IN COVAX SO WE'RE DOING A LOT BUT I BELIEVE WE CAN DO MORE.

AND IF WE DO MORE I HOPE THE OTHER RICH COUNTRIES WILL DO MORE AND THE WAY TO DO THAT IS TO EXPAND CAPACITY OF THE COMPANIES THAT HAVE THE CAPABILITY OF MAKING IT AND TO DEVELOP THE CAPABILITY IN OTHER COUNTRIES TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

IF WE PUT ENOUGH RESOURCES IN I BELIEVE WE CAN DO BOTH.

WE CAN GET THE LOWER AND MIDDLE INCOME COUNTRIES THAT ARE NOT GETTING ADEQUATELY VACCINATED YET TO GET THEM VACCINATED AS QUICKLY AS WE POSSIBLY CAN AT THE SAME TIME WE ADDRESS THE SITUATION OF THE POTENTIAL NEED FOR BOOSTERS TO GET AN ADEQUATE AND DURABLE RESPONSE.

ON THE POLITICAL ISSUE YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME.

I MEAN, GOING ALL THE WAY BACK TO AIDS/HIV, AND BEFORE.

YOU'VE SEEN THE POLITICAL BATTLES OVER THESE HEALTH MATTERS.DO YOU, WHEN YOU LOOK AE POLITICAL ISSUE IN THE U.S. AND COMPARE IT SAY TO FRANCE ALSO QUITE HESITANT, QUITE HOSTILE IN CERTAIN SECTORS, UNTIL THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF CAME AND ISSUED NOT JUST VACCINE MANDATES BUT ALSO VACCINE PASSES THAT LITERALLY YOU CAN'T DO CERTAIN THINGS IF NOT VACCINATED.

THAT HAS CREATED A MASSIVE UPTICK IN VACCINATION.

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT LEADERSHIP GAMBLE IF YOU LIKE IN MATTERS OF LIFE AND DEATH?

YES, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE VERY LIKELY, CHRISTIANE, AND IT GETS TO THE QUESTION YOU ASKED ME A MOMENT AGO, AND THAT IS WHEN WE GET THE FULL APPROVAL OF THE VACCINES, YOU ARE GOING TO SEE A COUPLE OF THINGS.

YOU ARE GOING TO SEE THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES ESSENTIALLY IMPLEMENTING MANDATES AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

AND YOU WILL VERY LIKELY SEE AS WE HAVE SEEN THUS FAR, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH THE VETERANS ADMINISTRATION, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES FOR THOSE WHO WORK FOR AND ARE CONNECTED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO HAVE A MANDATE.

SO PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SHOWN A LOT OF LEADERSHIP IN THIS FROM A NUMBER OF STANDPOINTS AND YOU'LL SEE EVEN MORE MANDATING PREDOMINANTLY AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

I THINK THAT IS REALLY AND REALLY TRYING TO DIGEST WHAT YOU'VE JUST SAID, BECAUSE THIS IS ALL SORT OF MOVING THE BALL FORWARD.AS I SAID, THIS INCREDIY IMPORTANT TIME WITH SCHOOLS OPENING.

DO YOU THINK GIVEN YOUR EXPERIENCE THAT COVID-19 IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE ERADICATED WITHIN A REASONABLE PERIOD OF TIME, OR CAN AND WILL ONE SIMPLY HAVE TO CO-EXIST WITH IT?

I BELIEVE THAT IF WE GET THE REST OF THE WORLD THE VACCINATIONS TO THEM THAT I MENTIONED, THAT WE WILL BE ABLE TO -- I DON'T THINK NECESSARILY ERADICATE.

WE'VE ONLY SUCCESSFULLY ERADICATED ONE VIRAL INFECTION FOR HUMANS AND THAT IS SMALL POX.

I BELIEVE WE CAN ELIMINATE IT.

THINGS WE'VE DONE IN MANY COUNTRIES WITH POLIO, WITH MEASLES.

BUT THAT WOULD REQUIRE A GLOBAL RESPONSE BECAUSE THIS IS A GLOBAL PANDEMIC WHICH REQUIRES A GLOBAL RESPONSE.

THAT IS THE REASON WHY I FEEL SO STRONGLY THAT IN ADDITION TO THE U.S.A. AS A RICH COUNTRY TO BE DOING WHAT THEY'RE DOING, TAKE A LEADERSHIP ROLE NOT ONLY IN PROTECTING OUR OWN CITIZENS BUT PROVIDING THE CAPABILITY TO GET THE ENTIRE WORLD VACCINATED.

YOU DO THAT, YOU'LL SEE A BLANKET OF PROTECTION THAT WOULD REALLY BE ABLE TO GET THIS OFF THE TABLE.

MAYBE NOT ERADICATE IT IN THE TECHNICAL SENSE, BUT TO NOT MAKE IT AN ISSUE THAT IS NOW ESSENTIALLY PARALYZED THE PLANET FOR 18 MONTHS NOW.

ELIMINATE IS A GOOD WORD ON THIS EVENING.

WE'LL TAKE ELIMINATE.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

A PLEASURE.

> AS WE'VE DISCUSSED, THE PANDEMIC HAS FURTHER EXPOSED SOCIETY'S FAULT LINES AND MY NEXT GUESTS ARE TRYING TO HEAL MANY OF THOSE DIVISIONS.

NORMAN LEAR IS BEHIND SITCOM HITS LIKE ALL IN THE FAMILY, THE JEFFERSONS, ONE DAY AT A TIME BUT ALSO A KEEN SOCIAL ACTIVIST FOUNDING THE PROGRESSIVE ADVOCACY GROUP PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY.

HE IS ALSO IN HIS 100th YEAR.

AND SO HAS A SENSE OF URGENCY NIPPING AT HIS HEELS.

HE IS JOINING US ALONGSIDE BEN JEALOUS WHO IS PRESIDENT OF THE FOUNDATION AND FORMER HEAD OF THE NAACP.

WELCOME BOTH TO THE PROGRAM.

NORMAN LEAR, YOU'RE IN YOUR 100th YEAR.

YOU'VE MADE A BIG DEAL ABOUT IT.

I AM NOT BREAKING ANY SECRETS.

SOON TO BE A HUNDRED.

YOU SAID AND I FIND IT REALLY INTERESTING AT THIS MOMENT THAT WHEN YOU WERE A YOUNG MAN YOU FLEW MORE THAN 50 BOMBER MISSIONS OVER EUROPE DURING WORLD WAR II AND WE HAVE AMAZING PICTURES.

IN CONTEXT OF YOUR SOCIAL ADVOCACY AND CIVIL RIGHTS I WONDER WHAT FROM THERE STUCK WITH YOU THROUGH THESE YEARS, WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED TO BRING YOU TO THE SOCIAL ACTIVISM YOU'RE ENGAGED IN NOW.

I THINK IT BEGAN WITH A VERY EARLY LOVE OF AMERICA.

I WAS IN MY SOPHOMORE YEAR AT EMERSON COLLEGE IN BOSTON WHEN THE PEARL HARBOR WAS BOMBED.

I CALLED THAT AFTERNOON TO MY MOM IN HARTFORD TO TELL HER I WANTED TO ENLIST.

IT WAS REFLEXIVE AND URGENT AND SHE BEGGED ME, BEGGED ME.

AND IN A THIRD OR FOURTH OR 12th SHE SAID SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY WOULD ABSOLUTELY DIE IF I -- THERE WAS NO DRAFT.

I WAS ENLISTING FREELY.

SHE WAS SCARED TO DEATH ABOUT IT.

AND AS I LOOK BACK, YOU KNOW, I HAD HAD -- I'M IN COLLEGE NOW BUT I HAD HAD IT SEEMED TO ME AN EDUCATIONAL LIFETIME OF CIVICS CLASSES.

AND I KNEW FAR BETTER THAN TODAY'S YOUTH WHAT AMERICA MEANT TO THE YOUTH.

WHAT THE PROMISES OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS MEANT.

WHAT EQUALITY AND IT WAS ALL TOGETHER UNQUESTIONABLE AND WONDERFUL AND THEN CAME WORLD WAR II.

I REMEMBER COMING BACK AND WONDERING IF WE NOW WEREN'T -- WE WERE THE GOOD GUYS VERY CLEARLY IN WORLD WAR II.

I MEAN YOU WERE THE GOOD GUYS.

YOU SNATCHED FREEDOM FROM THE JAWS OF FACISM.

I GUESS WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU AND BEN AS WELL, YOU SAID YOU'RE BAFFLED THAT ALL THESE YEARS LATER IN THE 21st CENTURY AMERICA DEMOCRACY AND ALL THAT YOU FOUGHT FOR BACK THEN IS IN SUCH A FRAGILE PLACE.

NORMAN, DID YOU EVER IMAGINE THAT WOULD HAPPEN ALL THESE YEARS AFTER YOU FOUGHT FOR IT?

I NEVER, EVER IMAGINED.

I NEVER IMAGINED THE CONCERNS WE HAD AT THE TIME PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY CAME ABOUT AND BLESS BEN JEALOUS WHO JOINED US RECENTLY AND I'M TALKING TOO LONG AND I HAVEN'T HEARD HIM SAY ANYTHING YET.

BUT THE REASON IT CAME ABOUT WAS THE FEAR OF EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW FROM THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT, THE POLITICAL RIGHT, THE FAR RIGHT.

NOT, YOU KNOW, I HAVE TOO MANY GOOD REPUBLICAN FRIENDS TO FEEL RIGHT AND LEFT ALONE.

IT'S THE FAR RIGHT.

IT'S THE CRAZY RIGHT.

IT'S TIME FOR YOU, BEN.

LET ME ASK BEN.

FORMER HEAD OF THE NAACP AND NOW PRESIDENT OF NORMAN'S ORGANIZATION PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY.

RIGHT NOW AS WE CAN SEE IN CONGRESS THEY'RE STRUGGLING WITH HOW TO PROTECT PEOPLE'S VOTING RIGHTS IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

DESCRIBE THE SITUATION AND WHAT YOU THINK YOUR ORGANIZATION COULD HELP DO ABOUT IT.

YOU KNOW, FIRST OF ALL JUST DEEPLY INSPIRED BY NORMAN.

WHAT HISTORY HAS SHOWN US IS EVERY GENERATION HAS TO STEP UP TO DEFEND OUR DEMOCRACY.

WHAT IS GREAT ABOUT NORMAN IS HE DIDN'T JUST STEP UP WITH HIS OWN GENERATION IN THE '40s BUT KEPT STEPPING UP IN THE 1960s AND 80s AND 2000s AND NOW.

WHAT BOTH OF US ARE FOCUSED ON IS MAKING SURE THIS BOLD, FEDERAL ACTION TO PROTECT VOTING RIGHTS, VERY PLEASED TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE SENATE.

WE'RE CONCERNED THAT THE PRESIDENT NEEDS TO GO THE FULL DISTANCE.

BIDEN'S COMMENTS AT HIS TOWN HALL THE OTHER NIGHT WERE A BIT MY OWN FAMILY IS TESTAMENT TO THE FACT THAT LAWS CAN IN FACT STOP PEOPLE FROM VOTING.

MY GRANDMOTHER TURNS 105 IN HER GRANDFATHER WAS BORN A SLAVE. WAS ONE OF THE LAST BLACO SERVE DURING RECONSTRUCTION IN VIRGINIA.DEED, HIS CAREER IN POS WAS ENDED BECAUSE OF VOTER SUPPRESSION LAWS.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE, I'M TALKING TO PEERS, THINKING ABOUT RUNNING FOR STATEWIDE OFFICE AS I DID IN MY STATE A COUPLE YEARS AGO AND FOR THE FIRST TIME ARE SAYING, I'M NOT SURE THAT I SHOULD DO IT BECAUSE IN THEIR STATES THEIR GOVERNOR NOW HAS THE POWER TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION IF THEY DON'T LIKE THE RESULT.

AND SO WE'RE IN A VERY DIRE MOMENT.AN AND I ARE BOTH WORKING INTENTLY TO MAKE SURE THAT STRONG FEDERAL VOTING RIGHTS LAWS GET PASSED NOW.

SO YOU SAID YOU WERE DISCONCERTED BY THE TOWN HALL.

WHAT PARTICULARLY DISCONCERTED YOU ABOUT WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN DO YOU HAVE ANY FAITH THAT CONGRESS WILL ACT TO SAVE, YOU KNOW, FULL VOTING RIGHTS?

THERE WAS A MOMENT IN THE TOWN HALL WHERE BIDEN WAS PUSHED AND ON STANDING UP AGAINST THESE VOTER SUPPRESSION LAWS AND DOING LITERALLY EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO GET IT DONE AND HE SAID YOU JUST CAN'T STOP PEOPLE FROM VOTING.LOOK AT THE LAST ELECTIO.

WE HAD RECORD TURNOUT.

IT'S JUST AN HISTORIC -- I WISH IT WERE THE CASE BUT IT'S NOT.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW ON THE STATE LEVEL ASSAULTS ON VOTING RIGHTS IS THEY ARE SO MASSIVE AND THOROUGH THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN LIKE MORE THAN A CENTURY WE'RE SEEING BLACK POLITICIANS IN CERTAIN STATES SAYING I DON'T THINK IT MAKES SENSE TO RUN BECAUSE THE INCUMBENT COULD LITERALLY OVERTURN THE ELECTION IF THEY WANTED.

IT IS OBVIOUSLY VERY TROUBLING.D OF COURSE WE SAW WHT HAPPENED IN 2020.

WE ALSO DID SEE LOCAL AUTHORITIES, GOVERNORS, YOU KNOW, THE COURTS AND STUFF HOLD TO THE FACTS OF THE ELECTION.

BUT I HEAR YOU.

I WANT TO ASK NORMAN.

LET'S GO BACK A LITTLE BIT TO YOUR PRODUCING AND WRITING CAREER.

I GUESS I WANT TO ASK YOU.

WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR TV HITS AND YOUR SITCOMS CONTRIBUTED NOT JUST TO CULTURE AND PEOPLE'S ENJOYMENT AND GREAT RATINGS BUT TO THE WAY AMERICANS SAW THEIR WORLD AND THE WAY THE OTHERS, WATCHING, SAW AMERICA?

WHAT COMES TO MIND REFLEXIVELY IS I DON'T REMEMBER DOING A SHOW WHERE THE FOLLOWING WEEK THE SHOW WAS ON SATURDAY NIGHT AND MONDAY I WAS READING ABOUT AND HEARING ABOUT, FROM PEOPLE, ABOUT THE CONVERSATIONS THAT FOLLOWED THE SHOW IN THE FAMILIES AND IN THEIR HOMES WATCHING IT.

AND THE EXPRESSION, THE WATER FOUNTAIN IN THE OFFICES, PEOPLE STOOD AROUND THE WATER FOUNTAIN TALKING ABOUT THE 'ALL IN THE FAMILY' EPISODE THE WAY ARCHIE CARRIED ON ABOUT THIS, THAT, OR THE OTHER THING.

BEA ARTHUR AS MAUDE.

I HAD THE -- I COULD BE CERTAIN THAT WHAT WE WERE DEALING WITH IN THE SHOWS BY WAY OF THE TOPICS WE SELECTED WAS CAUSING FAMILIES TO TALK.

AND THINK AND EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS AND IT ALL FELT GOOD AND EXTREMELY AMERICAN.

SO I HAD --

NORMAN --

I BEG YOUR PARDON.

GO AHEAD.

WE'RE GOING TO PLAY A CLIP FROM 'SANFORD AND SONS' AND IT IS WHERE THE ELDER SANFORD IS REPORTING A ROBBERY TO THE POLICE.

WE'LL PLAY THIS CLIP BECAUSE IT HAS A VERY STINGING END TO THE CONVERSATION.ST, WHAT IS YOUR FL NAME?

FRED SANFORD.

AND YOU WERE ATTACKED AND ROBBED.

HOW MANY MEN WERE THERE?

AH, I MEAN, I THINK FOUR.

FOUR.

FOUR?

THAT TOO MANY?

[ LAUGHTER ] IF THAT'S IT.

WERE THEY COLORED?

YEAH.

WHITE.

[ LAUGHTER ]

BEN, ALL THE WAY BACK THEN, THAT WAS A PHENOMENAL LINE I GUESS.

DO YOU REMEMBER AS A CHILD OF THE '70s WATCHING NORMAN'S, YOU KNOW, GROUNDBREAKING TELEVISION?

OH, MY GOSH, ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, AS A GENERATION Xer I WAS RAISED ON A DIET OF NORMAN LEAR SHOWS.

I WAS A LATCH KEY KID.

I SAW MANY WHEN THEY CAME ON AND SAW TLEM AGAIN AS RE-RUNS.

FOR ME, AS A CHILD OF A MARRIAGE BETWEEN A WHITE MAN AND A BLACK WOMAN, YOU KNOW, IT WAS DEEPLY AFFIRMING TO SEE A COUPLE LIKE MY PARENTS ON 'GOOD TIMES.'

AND, YOU KNOW, AS A KID WHO GREW UP WITH LOTS OF WHITE FRIENDS.

YOU.

ONE OF NORMAN'S PROTEGEES IT WAS NICE WHEN I WAS OLDER TO JUST KIND OF SEE THAT AFFIRMED IN A BIG WAY.

IT WASN'T JUST KIND OF WHAT NORMAN DID.

IT WAS WHO HE SURROUNDED HIMSELF WITH AND WHAT THEY WENT ON TO DO.

AS A CADRE THEY REALLY CREATED TELEVISION THAT MOVED OUR SOCIETY FORWARD.

YOU KNOW, I THINK ONE THING THAT IS THE MOST LONG LASTING IS NORMAN TAUGHT THE COUNTRY WHAT WE ALL KNEW IN OUR PRIVATE LIVES AND NEVER SAW REFLECTED ON TELEVISION, WHICH WAS THAT FAMILIES THAT LOVE EACH OTHER SOMETIMES HAVE TO FIGHT.

THAT SORT OF FIGHT AND THAT STRUGGLE IN THE FAMILY IS A REFLECTION OF YOUR LOVE FOR EACH OTHER.

YOU KNOW, WHEN IT'S DONE RIGHT.

AND SO IT IS IN OUR COUNTRY AS A

NORMAN, I WANT TO GO BACK TO YOUR WORLD WAR II EXPERIENCE.

I JUST WONDER WHETHER WHAT YOU HAVE SAID ABOUT HOW THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN, YOU SAID SAVED YOUR SKIN, YOU KNOW, DURING MANY OF THE ENCOUNTERS YOU HAD AND YET THEY WERE SEGREGATED DURING THAT TIME AND COULDN'T SLEEP WHERE YOU DID, COULDN'T EAT WHERE YOU DID.

HOW DID THAT SHAPE WHAT YOU THEN WENT TO WRITE FOR A BROADER PUBLIC AUDIENCE?

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE AT ALL THAT I WAS AWARE DURING THE WAR.

I GOT CREDIT FOR 52 MISSIONS, ACTUALLY DROPPED BOMBS 35 TIMES.

SO I ALWAYS THINK THE ONES IN WHICH I DROPPED BOMBS WERE THE -- OUGHT TO BE THE TOTAL.

BUT IN AMERICA WE GO WITH THE LARGER FIGURE.

AND SO IT WAS 52.

I REMEMBER I WAS THE RADIO OPERATOR GUNNER ON A B-17.

I SAD CLOSEST TO THE BOMB BAY DOORS.

I WAS THE CREW MEMBER WHO COULD SEE WHEN THE DOORS WERE EMPTY WHEN THE LAST BOMB HAD DROPPED.

AND I COULD TELL THE PILOT TO CLOSE THE DOORS.

SO I HAD THE MEMORY OF LOOKING DOWN AND WATCHING OUR DOZENS OF BOMBS LEAVE OUR PLANE AND JOINFR BOMBS FROM THE SQUADRON WE WERE FLYING WITH AND IMAGINING A FAMILY AT A LONG DINNER TABLE OR LUNCHEON TABLE AND THESE BOMBS RAINING DOWN ON THEM.

AND I REMEMBER WITH MY TEETH GRIT THINKING, SCREW 'EM.

THE HELL WITH 'EM.

AND THEN AN HOUR LATER FLYING BACK TO OUR BASE I RECALL SO WELL WONDERING IF ANYBODY CAME TO ME OVER THE YEARS THAT FOLLOWED WITH A PENCIL AND PAPER AND SAID, MR. LEAR, SIGN THIS AND YOU'LL NEVER REGRET HAVING WISHED TO KILL -- NOT NECESSARILY WISHED TO KILL BUT NOT CARING THAT A BOMB DROPPED ON A FAMILY.

AND I LIKE TO THINK, I REMEMBER SO WELL, THINKING I WOULD NEVER SIGN THAT.

I WOULD NEVER SIGN THAT.

BUT IT HAS ALWAYS -- THE NEXT THOUGHT REFLEXIVELY THE NEXT THOUGHT ALWAYS WAS BUT I WASN'T TESTED.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN THAT I WAS TESTED.

I LIKE TO THINK I WOULD NOT HAVE SIGNED THAT PAPER.

BUT SO IT IS WITH THESE --

YOU HAVE INCREDIBLE MEMORIES.

YEAH.

YEAH. NORMAN, WE CAN'T END WITHT PLAYING A SOUND FROM 'ALL IN THE FAMILY' YOU KNOW MORE PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THAT AROUND THE WORLD THAN JUST ABOUT ANYTHING.

AND, YOU KNOW YOU EPITOMIZED THE HEAT HEAD SO TO SPEAK.

I'LL PLAY THIS RIGHT NOW.

YOU'RE SAYING AMERICA LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT?

THAT'S RIGHT.

IT'S A FREE COUNTRY.

SO AMSCRAY.

THAT WOULD INCLUDE ME, TOO, MR. BUNKER.

AND TOODLY DO TO YOU TOO.

WHAT WOULD OUR LEAVING SOLVE?

WITH OR WITHOUT PROTESTERS THISE SAME PROBLEMS.T PROBLEMS?

THE WAR.

THE RACIAL PROBLEM, THE ECONOMIC PROBLEM, THE POLLUTION PROBLEM.

OH, COME ON IF YOU WANT TO NIT PICK.

NIT PICK.

LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING MR.

BUNKER.

NO LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING MR. STIVEK.

YOU ARE A MEAT HEAD.

WHAT DID YOU CALL ME?

MEAT HEAD.

DEAD FROM THE NECK UP.

HONESTLY IT IS A SEEN THAT LOOKS LIKE IT COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN TODAY.

YOU WERE VERY PRESCIENT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR YEARS OF SERVICE IN ENTERTAINMENT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

MAY I JUST TAKE A MOMENT TO REMIND YOU WE WERE DINNER MATES AT THE BRADLEYS BEN AND SALLY'S A GREAT MANY YEARS AGO.

YES, I REMEMBER.

I REMEMBER.

I WISH WE -- IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

I WISH WE COULD TALK MORE ABOUT IT.

WE WILL.

ON YOUR HUNDREDth BIRTHDAY I'LL GIVE YOU A CALL.

ISSUES OF RACIAL AND SOCIAL JUSTICE ARE ALSO AMONG THE TOPICS TACKLED BY OUR NEXT GUEST BUT FROM A VERY DIFFERENT VANTAGE POINT.

ANDREW SULLIVAN IS ONE OF TODAY'S MOST PROVOCATIVE SOCIAL AND POLITICAL COMMENTATORS AND OFTEN CRITICAL OF BOTH LEFT AND HIS NEW BOOK EXPLORES WHETHER AMERICA HAS BECOME TOO IDEOLOGICAL IN THESE POLITICALLY CHARGED TIMES.

HERE HE IS GOING OUT ON A LIMB WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

ANDREW SULLIVAN, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK AND WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

MICHAEL WHO YOU WRITE ABOUT, WHEN I FIRST MET YOU AS A GRADUATE STUDENT DOING YOUR DISSERTATION IS IN THIS BOOK BUT NOT ONLY A MODERATE CONSERVATIVE AS YOU SAY.

HE IS SORT OF ANTI-IDEOLOGY.

RIGHT?

DO YOU FEEL THAT WE'VE BECOME TOO IDEOLOGICAL?

OH, OF COURSE WE HAVE.

I THINK WE FORGET AND CAN OFTEN FORGET THAT LIFE IS A PRACTICAL ENTITY.

A CHALLENGE THAT WE GO THROUGH LIFE DOING THINGS AND WE TRY AND COMPROMISE WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

AND THE WORLD CHANGES AND PEOPLE CHANGE SO WE'RE IN THIS CONSTANT FLUX AND IF YOU HAVE THIS FIXED IDEOLOGY IT WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO TAKE ACCOUNT OF THE SOCIETY YOU LIVE IN.

AND THIS METAPHOR OF A BOOK THAT YOU ARE RUNNING SOCIETY OUT OF AND YOU USE THIS BOOK AS A GUIDE AND EVENTUALLY THEY START DOING THINGS THE BOOK DOESN'T SAY YOU ARE ALLOWED TO DO AND SO YOU TRY AND REVISE IT AND THEN YOU KEEP REVISING IT UNTIL EVENTUALLY YOU REALIZE THE SOCIETY IS DOING THIS ON ITS OWN AND YOU SHUT THE BOOK.

AND I THINK SHUTTING THE BOOK OF IDEOLOGY IS REALLY WHAT HE WAS ABOUT.WHICH MEANS BEING ALIVE TE PRESENT AND BEING ALIVE TO THE PRACTICAL POSSIBILITIES OF EVERY MOMENT.

SO THERE IS ALSO A KIND OF BOHEMIAN, EASTERN VIEW BEHIND IT WHICH IS THINGS ARE MYSTERIOUS.

LET'S LIVE NOW AND LET'S UNDERSTAND THE WORLD.

HE HAD THIS PHRASE EVERYTHING IS TRUE SO LONG AS IT ISN'T TAKEN TO BE ANYTHING MORE THAN IT IS.

IN OTHER WORDS, FIND EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FIRST AND THEN UNDERSTAND THE WORLD THAT WAY. THE OTHER GUIDING LIGN YOUR BOOK WAS PLATO.

I READ ABOUT HIM IN THE REPUBLIC AND YOUR BOOK QUITE A BIT.

HE TALKS ABOUT IN THE DIALOGUE HOW TYRANNY IS GOING TO MAYBE GROW OUT OF DEMOCRACY.

DO YOU THINK WE'RE SEEING THAT?

I DO.

THAT IS WHAT I SAW IN THE PIECE I WROTE ABOUT TRUMP IN 2016.

WHEN A SOCIETY BECOMES A KIND OF PATHOLOGICALLY EGALITARIAN SOCIETY IN WHICH WE ABOLISH DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN THE LEARNED AND UNLEARNED, WE, THE KID TEACHES HIS PARENTS, THE STUDENTS TEACH THE TEACHERS, THE RICH WEAR CLOTHES THAT THE POOR WEAR, AND PEOPLE'S COMPLEXITY AND VARIETY OF FACTIONS IN THE COMMUNITY BECOME SO GREAT THAT YOU KIND OF GET PARALYZED BY DIVISION, PARALYZED BY HAVE YOU HAD TRIBALISM.

IN WAYS YOU THINK YOUR COUNTRY IS JUST NOT GOING ANYWHERE WITH THIS KIND OF -- IS KIND OF STUCK.

THERE IS A YEARNING FOR SOMEONE TO COME ALONG AND JUST PUT IT RIGHT.

THAT SORT OF AUTHORITATIVE A MAN WILL COME UP AND PLATO BELIEVED OUT OF THE CHAOTIC DEMOCRACY SOMEONE WOULD HAVE THE SKILL TO EXPLOIT THAT FRUSTRATION, TO TELL THE PEOPLE THAT HE ALONE AMONG THE ELITES UNDERSTANDS HOW CORRUPT THIS IS AND HE WILL DO IT FOR THEM.

WITH TRUMP YOU HAD AN ABSOLUTELY PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THAT.

NOW, IT ALMOST SUCCEEDED IN SOME WAYS.

IF HE HAD BEEN AN OPERATIONAL COMPETENT, INTELLIGENT, AND NOT MENTALLY UNWELL PERSON, HE COULD HAVE USED THE EPIDEMIC FOR EXAMPLE TO IMPOSE MARTIAL LAW IF HE WANTED.

THAT IS THE KIND OF SITUATION A DICTATOR YEARNS FOR.

BUT HE DIDN'T BECAUSE HE IS NOT INTERESTED IN CONTROLLING.

WHAT HE IS INTERESTED IN IS HIS OWN EGO.

SO EVENTUALLY HE SUBVERTED THE CONSTITUTION OF THIS COUNTRY, TRIED TO OVERTURN AN ELECTION.

BECAUSE HIS OWN EGO COULDN'T ACCEPT THAT HE HAD LOST.

AND THAT IS A PERSON NOT IN CONTROL OF REASON.

THAT IS SOMEONE WHO IS GUIDED BY PASSION AND IMPULSE.

AND WHO HAS BUILT HIS ENTIRE APPEAL ON RESENTMENT AND FEAR.

BUT IT HAPPENED.

AND IT CAN HAPPEN AGAIN.

YOU SEE A DISCOMFORT ON BOTH RIGHT AND LEFT WITH THE MESS OF PLURALISM, THE MESS OF COMPROMISE, THE MESS OF HAVING PEOPLE IN YOUR OWN SOCIETY YOU REALLY DISAGREE WITH BUT YOU HAVE TO COME TO A COMPROMISE ON.

THAT COULD BE FRUSTRATING BUT THAT FRUSTRATION IS WHAT THE CONSERVATIVE SAYS WHEN YOU WANT TO CUT THROUGH IT, AND SOLVE EVERYTHING, AND GET A LEADER, CONSERVATIVE SHOULD SAY, NO.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHEN YOU SHOULDN'T.

AND WHAT'S HAPPENED IN AMERICA IS THE CONSERVATIVISM HAS BECOME THE OPPOSITE.

IT IS NOW WORSHIPPING A CULT FIGURE, AUTHORITARIAN IMPULSES HAVE OVERWHELMED THE SENSE OF SMALL GOVERNMENT AND INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS TRUMP OR A DEEPER IMPULSE AFFECTING THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT IN AMERICA?

I THINK IT IS A DEEPER IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE.

I THINK THE FAILURES OF THE ELITES IN THE EARLY 21st CENTURY EMBITTERED PEOPLE.

I THINK THE FACT THAT IT SEEMS AS IF OUR INDUSTRIAL BASE WAS LOST TO CHINA AND PEOPLE WERE LEFT BEHIND, I THINK THE COLLAPSE OF CHRISTIANITY AND RELIGION HAS LEFT PEOPLE ADRIFT.

THESE ARE RIPE CONDITIONS FOR THE DEMAGOGUE.

BUT THEY ARE ALSO LESSONS FOR THE EXISTING ELITES.

TAKE NOTE.

DO NOT IGNORE THE FORCES THAT HE IS EXPLOITING.

SO DO NOT TAKE IMMIGRATION AS SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO HAVE UNRESTRICTED IN ORDER TO SHOW YOU'RE NOT TRUMP.

IF YOU DO NOT ENFORCE THE BORDERS FASCISTS WILL.

AND SO HE IS JUST A BRILLIANT DEMAGOGUE.THINK THAT HASN'T BEEN PROPERLY APPRECIATED.

A GIFTED, REALLY GIFTED UP THERE WITH SOME OF THE WORST AND GREATEST LIKE HUEY LONG.

PEOPLE WHO COULD REALLY RATTLE YOU WITH THE POWER TO RALLY A CROWD.

YOU'VE SEEN THOSE RALLIES.

THAT IS A -- NOT MANY POLITICIANS CAN DO THAT AND HE ALSO LISTENED TO THE CROWD.

HE BECAME ONE WITH THEM.

WHEN WE READ STORIES OF THESE CHARISMATIC DICTATORS, THERE IS THIS QUALITY AND HE HAD IT.

IRONICALLY, A NEW YORK REAL ESTATE PERSON HAS THAT TALENT AND HE DID.

HAPPILY NOT MANY PEOPLE HAVE IT BUT HE SAW THE OPPORTUNITY AND INSTINCTIVELY SEIZED IT.

YOU'VE ENDORSED OBAMA AND TAKEN ON TRUMP BUT YOU'RE MAINLY NOW AIMING YOUR LANCE AT THE FAR LEFT.

THE WOKE LEFT.

THE CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

DOES THAT WORRY YOU AS MUCH AS THE TRUMPIST AUTHORITARIAN IMPULSE?

I DON'T THINK IT WORRIES ME AS MUCH.

BUT I DO THINK IT IS AT ITS CORE AN ALIBERAL IMPULSE.

IF YOU REMOVE THE IDEA WE'RE ALL INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS IRRESPECTIVE OF RACE, GENDER, SEX AND WE ARE AS CITIZENS ENGAGED IN A PROJECT OF REASONING THROUGH THE COMMON GOOD, IF THAT'S THE BASIS OF OUR SOCIETY, THEN CRITICAL RACE THEORY REALLY DETONATES IT AT ITS FOUNDATION BECAUSE IT DOESN'T BELIEVE IN INDIVIDUALS.

IT BELIEVES IN GROUP RIGHTS.

IT DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT SOCIETY IS A FUNCTION OF INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM COMPETING WITH ONE ANOTHER.

IT BELIEVES IT IS ACTUALLY A STORY OF OPPRESSION IN WHICH GROUPS SUPPRESS OTHER GROUPS AD INFINITUM. DON'T WE HAVE A HISTF OPPRESSION IN THIS COUNTRY AGAINST BLACKS THAT NEEDS TO BE RIGHTED?

YES.

WE ABSOLUTELY DO.

AND I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT IT UP.

I DON'T WANT TO BE SEEN AS SOMEONE DISMISSING THAT.

THE TRUTH IS WE HAVE WHITE WASHED THE PAST.

IT IS SHOCKING HOW MUCH WE HAVE IGNORED OR PLAYED DOWN WHAT WAS ESSENTIALLY A SORT OF GULAG SYSTEM IN THE AMERICAN SOUTH FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

AND WE HAVE SHAMEFULLY NOT ACTUALLY BROUGHT TO LIFE THE HIDEOUS REALITIES OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY FOR SO LONG.

IF IT WAS ABOUT THAT, IF IT WAS ABOUT UNEARTHING THAT HISTORY AND MAKING STUDENTS FACE IT AND UNDERSTAND WHERE WE'VE COME FROM, BUT IN SO DOING UNDERSTANDING HOW WE HAVE MANAGED TO GET PAST SOME OF THAT, HOW WE STILL HAVE WORK TO DO BUT AMERICA AS OBAMA SAID IS A PROJECT.

IT'S STILL ONGOING.

CRITICAL RACE THEORY SAYS NO.

THERE WILL NEVER BE A MOMENT WHERE AMERICA CAN GET PAST ITS RACIST ESSENTIAL DNA.

THE FOUNDING OF AMERICA WASN'T 1775.

IT WAS WHEN SLAVES WERE BROUGHT IN.

THIS IS A SLAVE-OCRACY NOT A DEMOCRACY.

THE CONSTITUTION WAS DESIGNED FOR RACIAL OPPRESSION NOT INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM.

NOW, AND THEREFORE THE WHOLE SYSTEM HAS TO BE UNDONE TO UNDO THAT CRIME.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

I DON'T BELIEVE THIS COUNTRY IS ROTTEN AT ITS CORE.

I DON'T.

I THINK IT'S DEEPLY FLAWED.

I THINK ITS HISTORY HAS HORRORS IN IT.

BUT I EMIGRATED HERE FOR A REASON.

BECAUSE IT HAS IMPROVED AND IT BETTERS ITSELF.

AND IT HAS SHOWN THAT INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM AND SMALL GOVERNMENT LEADS TO DYNAMIC SOCIETY.

AND SO I DON'T WANT AMERICA'S KIDS TO BE CONSTANTLY AWARE OF THEIR RACE AND GENDER.

I DON'T WANT THEM TO BE FIXATED ON THE IDENTITIES OF THEIR I WANT THEM TO BE INTERESTED IN THE CHARACTERS OF THEIR FRIENDS, THEIR PERSONALITIES, THEIR I WANT THEM TO FORM FRIENDSHIPS THE WAY I DID AS A KID.

AND EVENTUALLY WE CAN UNDERSTAND THE PAST AND LEARN TO ADJUST TO IT.

BUT THE IDEA WE'VE MADE NO PROGRESS, THE IDEA THAT BARACK OBAMA'S TWO TERMS WERE A WASTE OF TIME, THE IDEA WE HAVE TO ACTUALLY REINTRODUCE ACTIVE RACE DISCRIMINATION AND SEX DISCRIMINATION INTO THE GOVERNMENT AND INTO SOCIETY AS A WHOLE TO RECTIFY THESE HISTORIC INJUSTICES IS DEEPLY ANTITHETICAL. WE HAVE TO INJECT SOMETHING TO RECTIFY WHAT ARE STILL INJUSTICES BUILT IN A BIT SO THAT WE CAN MAKE SURE, WHICH YOU'VE BEEN AGAINST?ON,

WELL, I DON'T THINK AFFIRMATIVE ACTION DOES THAT.

I THINK WHAT WE SHOULD DO IS INVEST IN EARLY EDUCATION, AND REALLY CARE ABOUT THE NEXT GENERATION OF BLACK KIDS.

I THINK WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE CRIME THAT TERRORIZES THEM ON A DAILY BASIS AND THAT IS RISING VERY FAST.

I THINK WE NEED TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT FAMILY STRUCTURE.

I THINK, YES.

WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO BE HONEST ABOUT THE PROBLEMS THAT ARE THERE.

AND WAYS TO IMPROVE.S TO THEM BUT I DON'T THINK TOKEN GESTURES THAT, IN WHICH WHITE PEOPLE BASE THEMSELVES FOR THE PAST AND GIVE IS HEALTHY AND I DON'T THINK THE CURRENT GENERATION IS GUILTY OF THE CRIMES OF PREVIOUS GENERATIONS.K OF ALL THE NEW IMS FROM ASIA, AFRICA, AROUND THE WORLD THE LAST 30 YEARS.

THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SOMETHING CALLED WHITE SUPREMACY.N'T THINK THIS COUNTRA WHITE SUPREMACIST COUNTRY.

I DON'T.

I THINK IT HAS BEEN.

I THINK THERE ARE STRAINS OF IT STILL HERE.

I THINK THERE ARE LEGACIES OF IT THAT NEED TO BE CONFRONTED.

SPECIFICALLY THE WEALTH GAP.

BUT WHEN YOU COME TO THAT KIND OF -- YOU SHARE THE WEALTH GAP CREATED IN PART BY RED LINING AND DISCRIMINATION BY THE GOVERNMENT IN THE PAST, THE QUESTION THEN BECOMES HOW WOULD WE MAKE THAT RIGHT?

AND IT'S VERY COMPLICATED.

AND I WOULD RATHER FOCUS ON HOW DO WE MAKE THE NEXT GENERATION MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN THE LAST?

AND WE DON'T IGNORE IT.

WE DON'T PRETEND THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS THERE.

MY APPROACH TO THAT IS OBAMA'S.

IT'S NOT EXACTLY FAR RIGHT.

ONE OF THE MOST EMOTIONAL AND SORT OF LAYERED ESSAYS IN YOUR BOOK IS A LETTER YOU WROTE, AN OPEN LETTER.

IT STEMS OUT OF THE FACT THAT WHEN YOU WERE ADDED TO THE NEW REPUBLIC YOU PUBLISHED THE BELL CURVE WHICH LOOKED AT THE CORRELATION OF RACE AND I.Q. AND A SYMPOSIUM IN WHICH PEOPLE DEBATED IT AND YOU WERE A TRUTH SEEKER.

AND, YET, IN THAT LETTER, YOU TALK ABOUT MAYBE BEING EMPATHETIC SHOULD TRUMP BEING A TRUTH SEEKER AT TIMES, YOU HAVE TO WRESTLE WITH THAT.

EXPLAIN YOUR THINKING ON THAT.

WELL, I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS A LOT OBVIOUSLY AND I WAS QUITE YOUNG WHEN I DECIDED TO USE THE NEW REPUBLIC MAGAZINE AS A PLACE TO AIR A DEBATE ABOUT THIS.

AND INTELLECTUALLY I UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY THE NEED, IN FACT I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT, TO AIR DIFFICULT SUBJECTS, DEMYSTIFY THEM, NOT TO LET THEM BE COVERED BY SUBTERRANEAN FORCES BUT TO BRING THEM OUT INTO THE OPEN AND SUBJECT THEM TO REASON.

I HAVE NO QUALMS ABOUT THAT.

BUT WHEN YOU HURT PEOPLE'S FEELINGS, WHEN YOU MAY ACTUALLY CREATE SENTIMENT THAT CAN PUT BACK RACE RELATIONS.

WHEN YOUR OWN FRIENDS AND PEOPLE YOU LOVE AND I WAS FRIENDS WITH HIM AND RESPECT HIM ENORMOUSLY ARE DEEPLY WOUNDED AND I THINK I AM PERSONALLY WOUNDING THEM FROM THIS I TAKE STOCK.

ISN'T IT THAT POLITICAL CORRECTNESS WHICH PEOPLE CRITICIZE AT ITS CORE ISN'T THAT WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE IS TAKING STOCK OF WHETHER YOU ARE WOUNDING SOMEBODY BY PRETENDING TO BE TOO MUCH OF A TRUTH SEEKER?

IN PART, YES.

BUT IN THE SAME WAY, CHRISTIANITY, WHICH DOESN'T REQUIRE ALL THAT KIND OF IDEOLOGY, TELLS YOU JUST TO LOVE YOUR FELLOW PERSON.

AND REGARDLESS OF THEIR RACE.

WE ARE NEITHER GREEK NOR JEW, NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE.

THAT IS A VERY FUNDAMENTAL PART OF MY OWN BELIEF.

TO HURT PEOPLE AND TO INVOKE AND TOUCH DEEP HISTORICAL PAIN IS SOMETHING YOU SHOULD DO VERY GINGERLY AND ONLY WHEN IT REALLY REQUIRES AN HONEST ACCOUNT AND YOU NEED TO DO IT IN GOOD FAITH AND CAREFULLY.

BUT, NONETHELESS, THERE ARE TIMES WHEN I FEEL THAT MY DUTY AS A TRUTH SEEKER IN A WAY HAS CONFLICTED WITH MY DUTY TO BE A BETTER CHRISTIAN.

AND TO NOT PICK UP SOME OLD NOT LOOK UNDER THE -- NOT PURSUE THE THINGS.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE ROLES WE ALL PLAY.

AND ONE OF THE ROLES AS A JOURNALIST IS TO BE AND THE PUBLIC INTELLECTUAL IS TO BE THE SKUNK AT THE PARTY.

TO BE THE PERSON NO ONE LIKES BECAUSE THEY BRING UP UNCOMFORTABLE SUBJECTS AND MAKE PEOPLE DO THAT.

I DON'T BELIEVE JOURNALISTS SHOULD BE POPULAR OR PARTICULARLY AMIABLE.

WE SHOULD BE A KIND OF PARIAH CLASS WHOSE ROLE IS IN PART TO PLAY THE ROLE OF THE COURT JESTER OR PERSON WHO WILL ASK THE QUESTION NO ONE IS SUPPOSED TO ASK.

I'VE SEEN THAT AS PART OF MY ROLE TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.

I ALSO, I'LL CONFESS, I FIND REALLY DIFFICULT TOPICS AT PLACES I WANT TO JUMP IN.

I AM CURIOUS.

I WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT THIS.

I AM A LONG BELIEVER THAT THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT IS HAVE IT ALL OUT ON THE TABLE.

LET THIS VIEW COMPETE WITH THAT VIEW.

AN OLD SCHOOL LIBERAL IN A SENSE.

I DON'T THINK WORDS ULTIMATELY HARM PEOPLE.

I THINK ACTIONS HARM PEOPLE.

BUT WORDS DO HARM PEOPLE.

THEY CAN HARM YOUR PSYCHE BUT WHAT HAPPENED TO ELEANOR ROOSEVELT, THAT NO ONE CAN MAKE YOU FEEL INFERIOR WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT.

PEOPLE SAY HURTFUL THINGS ALL THE TIME.

THE THINGS I HAVE HEARD AGAINST ME WHETHER A CATHOLIC IN ENGLAND, GAY PERSON IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, YOU KNOW, A GAY PERSON IN AMERICA, I'VE BEEN PEOPLE SAY MEAN THINGS.

PEOPLE TALK ABOUT PROMISCUITY AND WHEN I HAD HIV, DID I COMPLAIN WHEN PEOPLE SAID HE WAS TOO STUPID, HE SHOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN THIS?

OR HE'S GAY OF COURSE THEY'RE GOING TO GET THIS?

NO.

YOU HAVE TO DEVELOP, AND THIS IS KEY, MINORITIES HAVE TO DEVELOP AND HAVE DEVELOPED IN THE PAST RESILIENCE.

TENACITY.

AND TO COLLAPSE ALL THAT INTO THIS DESPERATE NEED FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S LOVE, SCREW THAT.

YOU DON'T NEED PEOPLE'S LOVE.

I WANT THEIR RESPECT.

AND I WANT EQUALITY.

BUT I DON'T MIND IF THEY HATE ME.

AND INSTEAD OF RESPONDING TO PEOPLE YELLING, PERV AT US, YELLING BACK BIGOT, ENGAGE THEM.

TALK TO THEM.

BE REASONABLE.

AMERICA, AND HERE AGAIN I WILL SAY THIS.

PEOPLE WHO TALK ABOUT AMERICA AS INHERENTLY RACIST OR BIGOT OR HOMOPHOBIC I'VE LIVED AN ADULT LIFE WHERE THIS COUNTRY HAS GONE FROM ONE POSITION TO ANOTHER THROUGH A SYSTEM OF OPEN DEBATE, DONE CIVILLY, NO VIOLENCE, OCCASIONAL SPECTACULAR DEMOS AND SOME OF THEM I DISAGREED WITH BUT A LOT OF ARGUMENT, A LOT OF TALK AROUND FAMILY TABLES.

A LOT OF PEOPLE TAKING RISK FOR THEIR OWN LIVES AND TELLING THEIR STORY.

AND WE CHANGE PEOPLE'S MINDS AND I'M NOT GIVING UP ON THIS PLACE.

I DON'T THINK IT IS ROOTED IN EVIL AND ALWAYS GOING TO OPPRESS PEOPLE.IT IS A FANTASTIC PLACE.

THAT'S WHY I CAME HERE.

ANDREW SULLIVAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WELL, IT IS WONDERFUL TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AND FINALLY TONIGHT, MESSI MANIA.

PARIS CELEBRATES AS THE SUPERSTAR SOCCER PLAYER LIONEL MESSI ARRIVED TO JOIN HIS NEW TEAM, PARIS ST. GERMAIN AFTER A GLITTERING 19 YEARS WITH BARCELONA AND OF COURSE A LOT OF GOLD.

SPEAKING TO CNN HE REFLECTED ON THIS MOMENTOUS MOVE.

Translator: WELL THE TRUTH IS IT IS HARD TO PUT INTO WORDS WHAT I'VE HAD TO LIVE THROUGH THIS WEEK.

IT WAS REALLY DIFFICULT WHAT HAPPENED WITH BARCELONA.

SAYING FARE WELL AFTER BEING THERE MY WHOLE LIFE IN ONE PLACE.AFTER THREE DAYS, WITHOUT FORGETTING WHAT HAPPENED, EVERYTHING CHANGED.

I WAS LIVING WITH A LOT OF DOUBT, A LOT OF NERVES.

A LOT OF ANTICIPATION THAT THIS WOULD HAPPEN.

AND, WELL, A LOT OF EXCITEMENT AND DESIRE TO GET STARTED.

IT WAS A REALLY SPECIAL ARRIVAL.

THE WELCOME FROM THE PEOPLE WHO WELCOMED ME, WHO CAME OUT ON TO THE STREETS, I AM VERY EXCITED TO START THIS NEW ERA AND I AM GOING TO LIVE AND I AM READY TO START MY NEW LIFE HERE IN PARIS.

AND OF COURSE SAYING GOOD-BYE TO HIS NUMBER 10 JERSEY HE NOW WILL WEAR NUMBER 30.

DOES THAT MEAN HE WILL BE THREE TIMES AS FEARFULLY GOOD?

HIS RIVALS HAD BETTER WATCH OUT, STILL.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.MEMBER YOU CAN FOLLOW MD THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR & COMPANY ON PBS.JOIN US AGAIN TO.