August 13, 2021

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> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

WE WILL NOT ALLOW AFGHANISTAN TO BECOME A SAFE HAVEN FOR TERRORIST ATTACKS ON OUR HOMELAND AGAIN.

AS THE TALIBAN TIGHTENED THE NOOSE AND SET THEIR SIGHTS ON KABUL, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR YOU ARE SKOOITY AT HOME AND AROUND THE WORLD?

BEING IN BELARUS I WAS REALLY AFRAID ABOUT THEIR LIFE AND ABOUT THEIR PARENTS.

SHE MADE HEADLINES BY REFUSING TO RETURN HOME FROM TOKYO.

MY CONVERSATION WITH BELARUSIAN OLYMPIAN KRYSTSINA IS IMKNOPF SKAA.

YOU FEEL LIKE YOUR FEET ARE ON FIRE AND YOU FEEL LIKE YOU CAN'T BREATHE.

PRISONERS FIGHT DEVASTATING FIRES FOR LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE.

WE LOOK AT THE WOMEN PUTTING THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE.

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> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.

THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

BERNARD AND IRENE SCHWARTZ.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EARN.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR WHO WILL BE BACK NEXT WEEK.

THE TALIBAN CONTINUES TO SEIZE LARGE SWATHS OF AFGHAN TERRITORY CAPTURING 17 REGIONAL CAPITALS INCLUDING KANDAHAR AND A MAJOR STRATEGIC TARGET.

IN APRIL WHEN PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN ANNOUNCED A FULL WITHDRAWAL OF U.S. TROOPS, THE TALIBAN CONTROLLED FEWER THAN ONE-FIFTH OF AFGHANISTAN'S DISTRICT SEEN HERE IN DARK RED ACCORDING TO LONG WAR JOURNAL.

NOW THEY CONTROL MORE THAN HALF.

U.S. INTELLIGENCE ESTIMATES THAT KABUL COULD FALL WITHIN 90 DAYS.

SO THE WHITE HOUSE IS SENDING 3,000 TROOPS BACK TO AFGHANISTAN TO EVACUATE AMERICANS THERE.

HASHTANA DORANI IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF LEARN AFGHANISTAN THAT HAS REACHED HUNDRED OF AFGHAN STUDENTS.

SHE WORKS AS AN ACTIVIST FOR WOMEN'S EMPOWERMENT AND GIRLS' EDUCATION.

SHE JOINS ME NOW FROM INSIDE AFGHANISTAN.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME FIRST BY ASKING YOU WHAT IS THE SITUATION LIKE THERE ON THE GROUND, AND ARE YOU SAFE?

FIRST OFF, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND IS NOT VERY -- WHAT DO WE CALL IT, HOPEFUL, RIGHT NOW.

I AM SAFE AT THE MOMENT, BUT APART FROM THAT I JUST GOT NEWS THE MINUTE I GOT HERE FOR THE INTERVIEW THAT THEY HAVE GONE INSIDE THE HOUSES OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING WITH THE GOVERNMENT -- WHO HAVE WORKED WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND WHO HAVE WORKED WITH INTERNATIONAL NGOs AND THEY HAVE SEIZED THEIR CARS, THEIR RIFLES, GUN, WHATEVER THEY COULD IN KANDAHAR, SO THAT SITUATION IS ON THE GROUND.

HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL AND HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU ABOUT WHAT'S TO COME?

IMAGINE YOUR CHILDREN ARE CRYING BECAUSE THERE'S ONGOING FIGHTING BECAUSE THEY'RE CELEBRATING.

THAT'S WHAT I GOT FROM STAFF MEMBERS.

THE CHILDREN ARE CRYING AND THEY CANNOT SLEEP BECAUSE THEY WERE CELEBRATING AND YOU HAVE TO LEAVE EVERYTHING THAT BELONGS TO THEM OR TO YOU.

THAT'S ME TODAY, RIGHT?

THAT'S EVERYONE THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

THAT DOESN'T MAKE ME FEEL ANYTHING LESS THAN SAD AND FRUITLESS THAN THOSE WHO LEFT US IN THIS MESS.

WHO DO YOU BLAME FOR LEAVING YOU IN THIS CHAOS AND BLAME?

MY OWN GOVERNMENT FOR FALLING BACK AND NOT RESISTING, FOR NOT PUSHING THE TALIBAN OUT BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY HAD INTEL.

WHY DIDN'T THEY?

BECAUSE THEY WERE CAUGHT UP.

THEY WERE TOO EASY POLITICIZING WHATEVER POLITICS THEY WERE DOING.

I AM ALSO -- I'M SAD AT THE WEST WHO CLAIM TO BE ALL THESE HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS AND, YOU KNOW, AND PRO-HUMAN RIGHTS AND LIKE YOU ALL -- THEY ALL SAT TOGETHER AND PASS THESE HUMAN RIGHTS DECLARATIONS IN THE U.N. AND WHAT ARE THEY DOING ACTUALLY?

THEY ARE STANDING BY.

AFGHANISTAN IS BURNING, PEOPLE ARE FLEEING THEIR HOUSES AND CHILDREN ARE DYING OF STARVATION AND WOMEN ARE SITTING WITH NO TENT, NO SHELTER AND PEOPLE HAVEN'T DRANK WATER FOR HOURS OR DAYS, AND THEN THEY CLAIM TO BE LIKE, YOU KNOW, WAR LEADERS.

SO HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?

HOW DID THE TALIBAN DO THIS?

THEY HAD LEVERAGE.

THEY COULD HAVE PRESSURIZED THE TALIBAN, BUT THEY DIDN'T.

THEY STOOD BY SO THAT MAKES ME SAD ABOUT THEM, ABOUT THEIR LEADERSHIP.

YOU ASKED ME AND OUR VIEWERS TO IMAGINE CERTAIN SITUATIONS, PARTICULARLY HOW THEY'RE IMPACTING THE INNOCENT PEOPLE THERE, YOUNG CHILDREN, GIRLS AND TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT.

I CAN'T IMAGINE A LIFE LIKE THAT, AND I'M JUXTAPOSING THAT WITH ONE ARGUMENT THAT IS MADE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT NOTHING HAS HAPPENED AFTER 20 YEARS.

THE U.S. HAS BEEN THERE, THE U.S. HAS TRIED TO HELP GET AFGHAN PEOPLE ON THEIR FEET AND THAT NOTHING HAS RESULTED FROM THAT.

I WANT YOU TO COUNTER THAT BY TELLING US ABOUT THE WORK THAT YOUR ORGANIZATION HAS BEEN DOING PARTICULARLY IN KANDAHAR AND THE IMPACT YOU HAVE MADE ON HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN AND GIRLS.

SEE, FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO HIGHLIGHT THAT IT'S NOT THE FACT THAT THE U.S. SHOULD BE MAKING ANY DIFFERENT FOR AFGHANISTAN BECAUSE MY PRESIDENT IS NOT JOE BIDEN.

MY PRESIDENT, AND THEN AT THE SAME TIME BECAUSE THEY WENT TO US FOR AID MONEY, AGAIN, YOUR LEADERS STAY IN AFGHANISTAN WHERE THEY DIDN'T HAVE CHECKS AND BALANCES, WHERE AN INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION AND PRIVATE COMPANIES WERE INVOLVED IN A LOT OF CORRUPTION.

THEY DIDN'T BRING ALL OF THE MONEY TO AFGHANISTAN.

EVEN IF THEY DID WE MADE FRIENDS WITH POLITICIANS AND CORRUPT LEADERS AND TOOK THE MONEY OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.

TO HAVE FUNDS TO WORK YOU HAVE TO MAKE CHECKS AND BALANCES AND THAT'S HOW THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WORKS, RIGHT?

AND THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE KNOWN FOR.

WHEN IT COMES TO AFGHANISTAN, APART FROM THAT, PEOPLE HAVE MADE EVERY EFFORT TO SUSTAIN THIS COUNTRY.

I'M GOING TO SAY IT'S AFGHANISTAN OR THE PEOPLE VOLUNTEERING WITH ME OR THE TEACHERS, THE AMAZING TEACHERS AND THE FIERCE PRINCIPALS AND AMAZING STUDENTS.

IT'S EVERY OTHER PERSON.

WE STARTED WITH THE DIGITAL SCHOOL.

WE DIDN'T HAVE A CLINIC AND WE STARTED WITH A DIGITAL CLINIC AND THAT'S ALL BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT THERE IS A SOLUTION FOR EVERY PROBLEM, BUT IF IT'S A MESS AND CHAOS THAT'S LEGITIMIZED BY THE U.S.

YOU CAN'T STOP THAT BECAUSE THE U.S. IS MORE POWERFUL, RIGHT?

AND THEY'VE COME TO QUESTION IT AND THE U.S. SIDELINED US AND THAT MAKES ME SAD ABOUT THEM, AND THE FACT THAT WE DO, I'M NOT THE ONLY PERSON AND THERE ARE MORE OTHER AMAZING CHARITIES AND FOUNDATIONS THAT ARE WORKING WHO IS WORKING, AND I'M NOT THE ONLY PERSON WHO IS AMAZING WOMEN DOING AMAZING JOBS.

IT'S JUST THE POLITICS DON'T HELP US.

THE POLITICS DON'T HELP YOU AND YET YOU ARE WORKING TO HELP THOSE AROUND YOU.

WE JUST SAW IMAGES OF AFGHAN GIRLS IN A CLASSROOM LEARNING THE ALPHABET BEHIND THEM, SITTING THERE WITH THEIR TEACHERS.

CAN YOU GIVE US SOME STORIES, SOME EXAMPLES OF THE PROGRESS THAT YOU HAVE SEEN THERE FROM THE WORK THAT YOU DO?

IT'S VERY SELFLESS OF YOU TO HIGHLIGHT OTHER ORGANIZATIONS, BUT HERE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT YOUR WORK IN PARTICULAR.

CAN YOU GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES?

SO THIS YEAR WHEN THERE WERE THESE TWO ORGANIZATIONS FROM THE UK AROUND A THOUSAND POUNDS AND WE STARTED WITH THIS CAMPAIGN FOR MENSTRUAL HYGIENE MANAGEMENT BECAUSE THE SCHOOLS ARE INFRASTRUCTURALLY NOT DEVELOPED AND WE DON'T HAVE RUNNING WATER IN SCHOOLS.

SO WE USED TO GO TO EVERY SCHOOL AND TALK ABOUT NATURAL HYGIENE MANAGEMENT AND WASH AND GET THROUGH THE FOUR DAYS AND THERE ARE LOTS OF GIRLS SAYING THIS IS HAPPENING TO ME AND I CANNOT TALK TO MY PARENTS ABOUT IT, BUT YOU HELP ME, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I REMEMBER WHO BAHBAH CAME TO KNOW HOW TO USE A PAD.

THE FACT THAT A GIRL IS CONFIDENT TALKING ABOUT HER PERIOD AND SOMEBODY'S WORKING ON IT THAT MEANS THAT WE DID MAKE A LOT OF PROGRESS, RIGHT?

WE DON'T HAVE TEACHERS IN THE SCHOOLS, I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN GIVE THEIR NAMES AND FOR THEIR SECURITY I WON'T AND WITHIN THE TABLET AND THEN THE GIRLS LEARN FROM IT AND IT'S A GROUP OF FIVE GIRLS AND THEN THEY LEARN FROM ONE TABLET THAT'S DONATED FROM THIS AMAZING NGO.

SO ALL THESE EFFORTS WENT INTO MAKING GIRLS EDUCATED, CONFIDENT, RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS OF AFGHANISTAN, BUT NOW THE POLITICS FAILED THEM.

I AS AN AFGHAN GIRL, I KNOW THAT RUNNING WATER IS AN ISSUE AND ACCESS TO PADS IS AN ISSUE AND NO TEACHER AVAILABILITY IS AN ISSUE, BUT I CANNOT MAKE SURE THAT ALL OF THE PARTIES LET THE GIRLS GO TO SCHOOL BECAUSE THAT'S SOMETHING BEYOND MY CONTROL.

SO I DID EVERYTHING IN MY POWER AND PEOPLE DID EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER WHICH IS ALWAYS THE POLITICS AND IT'S ALWAYS THE WAR LEADERS ON WOMEN AGAIN ASK AGAIN.

I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WE ARE THE VICTIMS HERE AND WE TRY EVERY TIME AND THEN THEY COME AND BLOCK OUR PROGRESS AND THEN CLAIM THAT WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING.

YEAH.

IT'S CLEAR TO SEE BY ALL OF THE RESULTS THAT YOU'VE WORKED SO HARD FOR THAT YOU DID A LOT AND YOU WILL BE DOING AND YOU WILL BE CONTINUING TO DO A LOT TO FIGHT FOR YOUNG WOMEN THERE AND GIRLS ON THE GROUND.

THERE'S THE PERCEPTION THAT SOME OPTIMISTS WOULD LIKE TO THINK OF THIS BEING A NEW TALIBAN, AND A DIFFERENT TALIBAN AND A MORE MODERATE TALIBAN THAT WILL MAYBE APPROACH WOMEN AND GIRLS DIFFERENTLY.

EVERYTHING THEY SEEM TO HAVE PROMISED THUS FAR DURING THESE PEACE TALKS, THEY HAVE BROKEN MANY OF THESE PROMISES.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT AFGHANS AND THEIR NOW BEING ENCROACHED BY THE TALIBAN IN THESE RURAL AREAS IN PARTICULAR AND NOW THE BIGGER CITIES?

AND THEIR PROMISES.

DO YOU TRUST THEM?

IT IS DIFFERENT.

I HAVE ALWAYS TALKED ABOUT IT.

I'M A YOUNG, EDUCATED WOMAN SO I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT MY AMBITIONS AND GOALS.

WOMEN ARE NOT EDUCATED.

THEIR MEN HAVE ALREADY BEEN MURDERED ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

THEY WERE EITHER IN THE TALIBAN OR IN THE LEAGUE AND THEY ARE DEAD, RIGHT?

THE WOMEN ARE ILLITERATE.

THEY HAVEN'T BEEN SKILLED AND THEY HAVE FLED THEIR HOMES.

THEY ARE ON HUMANITARIAN SUPPORT THAT THEY CAN GET RIGHT NOW AND THEN COME TO THE SECOND -- AND THE BANK, A PRIVATE BANK EMPLOYEES WERE WOMEN AND THEY WERE ASKED AND ESCORTED TO GO HOME AND ASK TO SEND IN A MALE GUARD OR RELATIVES TO WORK INSTEAD OF THEM.

SO THEY HAVE CHANGED WHY ARE THEY STOPPING WOMEN FROM GOING TO WORK?

WHY ARE THEY MURDERING?

WHY ARE THEY MURDERING PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT IN THE ARMY RIGHT NOW?

WHY ARE THEY NOT ACTUALLY STANDING BY THEIR PROMISES THAT THEY MADE.

I'M NOT GOING TO SAY THAT I TRUST THEM.

I DIDN'T TRUST THEM AT ALL, BUT NOW THEY SHOULDN'T BE TRUSTING THEMSELVES BECAUSE ON ONE SIDE THEY CLAIM THAT WE HAVE CHANGED.

ON THE OTHER, THEY DON'T EACH STAND BY THEIR OWN WORD.

WHAT KIND OF PERSON IS THAT?

AS YOU KNOW, MANY ARE FLEEING THE COUNTRY AND AREAS THERE FOR SAFETY, AND I'M CURIOUS, WHAT'S NEXT FOR YOU?

NOW MUCH LONGER ARE YOU GOING TO BE IN AFGHANISTAN?

CONTINUE MOVING.

I HATE THE FACT THAT -- YOU KNOW, IT SHOULD BE EXPECTED FOR ME TO LEAVE BECAUSE AS A PERSON WHO GREW UP AS A REFUGEE, FOR THEM IT IS REALLY HARD TO RELIVE THAT.

WHEN I USED TO GO TO SCHOOL, AND NOW I DON'T WANT THAT.

I DON'T WANT THAT, RIGHT?

AND FOR ME, I JUST HAVE TO UNDERSTAND OR JUST GET USED TO ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

I DON'T HAVE ANY PLAN IN PLACE.

FOR NOW I'LL JUST FOCUS ON THE PEOPLE THAT I CAN GET THEM TENTS, MEDICINES AND WHATEVER I CAN.

YEAH.

PASHTANA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO TALK TO US.

THANK YOU FOR ALL OF THE HARD WORK THAT YOU'VE BEEN DOING OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, AND PLEASE, PLEASE STAY SAFE.

THE FORMER UK MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT RORY STEWART KNOWS AFGHANISTAN WELL AND THE AFGHAN PEOPLE INTIMATELY.

IN 2002 HE WALKED ACROSS THE SPAN OF THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

A JOURNEY THAT HE DESCRIBES IN HIS BOOK THE PLACES IN BETWEEN.

RORY STEWART IS JOINING US NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, RORY.

HELLO.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

I'M AT A LOSS FOR WORDS AFTER THAT CONVERSATION WITH PASHTANA.

I KNOW THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO LISTEN TO MOST OF IT.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION?

WELL, IT'S HEARTBREAKING.

AS YOU CAN SEE, THIS IS NOT JUST A MILITARY CATASTROPHE NOW.

IT'S A HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE AND WE SNEAD TO FOCUS ON THE SUFFERING NOW OF TENS OF MILLIONS OF AFGHANS WHO HAVE BEEN PLUNGED BY A VERY RECKLESS AND UNNECESSARY DECISION, I'M AFRAID, BY PRESIDENT BIDEN INTO MISERY, AND WE SHOULD NOT -- I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S BEEN VERY SAD OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS IS IN EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES PEOPLE PUTTING BLAME ON THE AFGHANS SOMEHOW SUGGESTING THIS IS THEIR FAULT, BUT THERE'S LITERALLY NO COINCIDENCE BETWEEN THE FACT THAT WE REMOVED THE AIR POWER AND MECHANISMS FROM THE AFGHAN ARMY AND IT'S ALLOWED THE TALIBAN TO CAPTURE THE COUNTRY IN A MATTER OF DAYS.

BUT YET YOU HEARD PASHTANA THERE LEVY QUITE A BIT OF BLAME TOWARD THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT AND THE MILITARY ITSELF, AND SHE TALKED ABOUT CORRUPTION.

THIS IS AN ARGUMENT AND A RESPONSE THAT WE'RE HEARING FROM MANY WHO SUPPORT THE PRESIDENT'S DECISION FOR LEAVING AND QUITE FRANKLY, THOSE THAT DON'T EVEN SUPPORT IT THAT THERE'S BLAME TO GO AROUND, AS WELL, SPECIFICALLY TO THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

IT'S EXTREMELY UNFOUND.

YES, THERE'S CORRUPTION IN AFGHANISTAN.

YES, AFGHANISTAN IS A VERY POOR, FRAGILE COUNTRY.

MANY WEALTHIER COUNTRIES LIKE NIGERIA AND PAKISTAN, IT'S GOT SIMILAR PROBLEMS.

WHAT WAS DIFFERENT ABOUT AFGHANISTAN IS THAT WE WERE ABLE TO CONTAIN A TALIBAN FOR 20 YEARS.

WE WERE ABLE TO ALLOW IMPROVEMENTS FOR MILLIONS OF LIVES AND GIRLS GOING TO SCHOOL AND EXTRAORDINARY TRANSFORMATION AND I RUN A NON-PROFIT IN AFGHANISTAN AND WE'VE SEEN INCREDIBLE CHANGES IN PEOPLE'S LIVES AND IT'S UNRECOGNIZABLE IN THE CITY AND TEN TIMES THE SIZE AND IT'S EDUCATED AFGHAN PEOPLE AND WE WERE DOING IT WITH THE TINY PRESENCE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN IS SOMEHOW PRETENDING THIS IS ANOTHER VET VIETNAM.

THERE WERE NO CASUALTIES BEING SUFFERED BY THE U.S., UK OR OTHERS.

WE ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE WE ARE PROVIDING LIGHT AIR SUPPORT AND WE COULD HAVE DONE THAT INDEFINITELY INSTEAD OF WHICH WE HAVE RECKLESSLY PULLED THE RUG OUT FROM UNDER THE AFGHAN NATIONAL ARMY AND WE HAVE CREATED THIS CHAOS AND WE SHOULD FEEL DEEPLY ASHAMED.

I WAS LISTENING TO AN ANALYST WHO SAID THE FAULT LIES ON BOTH SIDES THAT THE TALIBAN WAS PLANNING THIS FOR YEARS AND THIS WASN'T SOME OVERNIGHT MOVE ON THEIR PART.

THAT THEY DECIDED TO ENCROACH ON AND PLANNED TO ENCROACH ON THE RURAL AREAS YEARS AGO AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID, WHEREAS THE U.S. AND THE AFGHAN MILITARY FOCUSED ON PERHAPS SPREADING THEIR TROOPS TOO THIN AND FOCUSING ON THE BIG CITIES.

WAS THAT A MISTAKE?

IF PEOPLE SAW THE TALIBAN COMING WHY WASN'T MORE DONE?

THE TALIBAN BEING IN THE RURAL AREAS FOR 20 YEARS THEY NEVER WENT AWAY.

THEY'VE BEEN THERE FROM THE BEGINNING.

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO ELIMINATE THOSE KINDS OF INSURGENCY GROUPS AS YOU FIND IN NIGERIA, PAKISTAN THAT ARE FACING INSURGENCIES AND SO LONG AS THE U.S. AIR SUPPORT AND U.S. COMMAND AND CONTROL IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE TALIBAN TO CAPTURE THE TOWN AND THEY COULDN'T PUT ARTILLERY ON THE TOWN AND THEY COULDN'T ROLL OUT THE VEHICLES BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN HIT FROM THE AIR AND THEY WERE CONTAINING THE SITUATION.

WE WERE ALLOWING MILLIONS OF AFGHANS TO LIVE NORMAL LIVES TO GET EDUCATION.

AFGHANISTAN WAS CHANGING, AND IT WAS A VERY SMALL INVESTMENT IN THE UNITED STATES.

THAT'S ALL THAT WAS ASKED FOR.

2,500 SOLDIERS AND VERY FEW CASUALTIES, AND LOW COST AND WE'VE THROWN IT ALL AWAY FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

AND YET PRESIDENT BIDEN CONTINUES TO STAND BY HIS DECISION AND SAYS HE HAS NO REGRETS EVEN THOUGH JUST LAST MONTH HE SAID THAT THE TALIBAN WAS HIGHLY UNLIKELY TO TAKE OVER LARGE SWATHS OF THIS COUNTRY AND HERE THEY ARE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE PRESIDENT'S DECISION AND HIS DECISION TO STAND BY THOSE WORDS?

WELL, I'M HORRIFIED.

I WORKED WITH AMBASSADOR HOLBROOKE AND SECRETARY CLINTON IN 2008 AND 2009, WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN, THEN PRESIDENT WAS ARGUING FOR TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN AND THAT WAS WHAT HE INHERITED FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

EXACTLY WHEN HE WAS ADVOCATING, A FEW U.S. SOLDIERS AT MINIMAL COST AND MINIMAL RISK INSTEAD OF DRIVEN ABOUT SOME FANTASY IN THE MIDTERMS.

HE DECIDED TO MAKE A GESTURE WHICH MAKES ALMOST NO DIFFERENCE TO THE U.S. MILITARY AND HAS DEVASTATED MILLIONS OF LIVES AND BY DOING SO HE CREATED A VACUUM IN WHICH PAKISTAN AND IRAN WILL FLOW.

MILLIONS OF REFUGEES WILL BE PUSHED OUT OF THAT COUNTRY, AND IT WILL BE A PLACE LIKE SYRIA IN WHICH TERRORISTS WILL THRIVE.

HE'S DONE ALL OF THAT FOR NO REASON AT ALL.

AND OBVIOUSLY, THE U.S. AND ITS ALLIES, NATO ALLIES ARE FOLLOWING SUIT AND LEAVING THE COUNTRY AS WELL THOUGH RELUCTANTLY, PERHAPS, AND I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY FOR YOU SOUND FROM THE UK DEFENSE MINISTER EARLIER THIS WEEK.

AL QAEDA WILL PROBABLY COME BACK.

THEY WOULD CERTAINLY LIKE THAT TYPE OF BREEDING GROUND.

THAT'S WHAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE.

FAILED STATES LEAD TO INSTABILITY AND LEAD TO INSECURITY, A THREAT TO US AND OUR INTERESTS.

THAT SOUNDS LIKE A DOOMSDAY SCENARIO.

THE U.S. IS SENDING 3,000 TROOPS TO EVACUATE U.S. MEMBERS AND CITIZENS THERE ESPECIALLY THOSE WITHIN THE EMBASSY AND THE UK IS SENDING A FEW HUNDRED TROOPS, AS WELL.

WHAT HAPPENS NOW?

WHAT IS THE MOOD THERE WITHIN THE UK AND THOSE THAT YOU STILL CONTINUE TO SPEAK WITH?

WELL, IT'S A TERRIBLE HUMILIATION BECAUSE, OF COURSE, YOU'RE RIGHT.

THIS IS NOT JUST A U.S. FAILURE.

THIS IS A FAILURE FROM THE UK, FROM FRANCE, GERMANY, FROM NATO.

THE ONLY NATION THAT'S STAYING AT THE MOMENT IS TURKEY.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PERFECTLY POSSIBLE TO HAVE A SENSIBLE CONVERSATION IF PRESIDENT BIDEN WANTS TO FORM IT ON THE GROUND OF ANOTHER SOLUTION SO THE AFGHANS HAVE ALSO BEEN LET DOWN VERY BADLY BY THE EUROPEANS HERE.

IT IS A VERY SHAMEFUL MOMENT FOR THE WEST IN GENERAL AND IT'S ONE THAT OUR ENEMIES WILL BENEFIT FROM IN MANY WAYS AND OF COURSE, EUROPEANS WILL FEEL THE IMPACT OF MILLIONS OF REFUGEES.

I SUPPOSE NOW ALL WE CAN DO IS MOVE ON FROM THE MILITARY TO THE HUMANITARIAN.

IN THE U.S. AND THE UK AND OTHERS WILL HAVE TO PRODUCE BILLIONS OF AID TO DEAL WITH REFUGEES AND DEAL WITH THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN AFGHANISTAN AND TO TRY TO DO WHAT WE CAN TO KEEP BASIC HEALTH AND EDUCATION GOING AND TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT NON-PROFITS LIKE THE VERY COURAGEOUS LADY THAT YOU WERE INTERVIEWING BEFORE I CAME ON AND MANY OTHER VERY GOOD ORGANIZATIONS, MANY OF THEM WITH AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN STAFF WHO ARE TRYING DESPERATELY TO DELIVER THINGS TO AFGHANS AND KEEP THEM ALIVE.

IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY THING TO DO.

I MEAN, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS WE'VE DEVELOPED OVER 20 YEARS AND THERE WERE 100,000 CIVILIANS AND NOT JUST SOLDIERS THERE FROM THE U.S. AND EUROPE AND DEVELOPING WITH AFGHANS, BUILDING THINGS TOGETHER AND SOMEHOW WE'VE DECIDED TO SMASH THE WHOLE THING AND HAND AFGHANISTAN BACK TO THE TALIBAN AND IT'S BEYOND IMAGINING.

IT'S NOT AS IF THERE ISN'T PRECEDENT FROM THE 20th CENTURY, EVEN, IN TERMS OF A U.S. LIGHT FOOTPRINT WHETHER THAT'S GERMANY, SOUTH KOREA, JAPAN.

I'D LIKE FOR YOU TO RESPOND TO WHAT ONE POLICY EXPERT SAID.

HE SAID THIS IS A TRAGEDY, BUT NOT OUR TRAGEDY.

THIS IS A U.S. POLICY EXPERT.

CAN YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW ANYONE CAN SAY THAT WHO HAS ANY IMAGINATION, COMPASSION OR EMPATHY TO WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW.

THERE ARE MILLIONS OF AFGHANS NOW TRAPPED IN AN ISLAND IN THE SEA OF TALIBAN.

WOMEN WHO HAVE, YOU KNOW, TAKEN 20 YEARS TO TRY TO BUILD THEIR LIVES AND GO TO SCHOOL, GO TO UNIVERSITY, SET UP SMALL BUSINESSES.

YOUNG MEN WHO WERE BEGINNING LIKE YOUNG PEOPLE IN INDIA AND ELSEWHERE TO CONNECT TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD AND DEVELOP THEIR HOPES, WHO TRUSTED US AND BELIEVED IN ALL OUR TALK ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND GROWTH AND HUMAN RIGHTS AND ALL OF THE THINGS WE TRIED TO DO TOGETHER.

TO SAY THIS IS NOT OUR TRAGEDY, THIS IS THEIR TRAGEDY IS THE MOST BRUTAL THING, AND I AM VERY SORRY TO HEAR A SENIOR AMERICAN SAY THAT.

I WAS DEEPLY IMPRESSED BY THE AMERICAN SOLDIERS AND DIPLOMATS AND AID WORKERS I SERVED WITH IN AFGHANISTAN.

EVEN THOUGH I DISAGREED WITH HIM I HAVE HUGE ADMIRATION FOR PETRAEUS, AND THEY WERE SERIOUS ABOUT AFGHANISTAN.

THEY CARED ABOUT IT, AND IT'S ASTONISHING THAT THE UNITED STATES CAN IN A MOMENT GO FROM DEEP THOUGHT AND SERIOUSNESS TO TRYING TO PRETEND THIS IS SOMEHOW NOT OUR PROBLEM.

THIS IS VERY MUCH OUR PROBLEM.

IT'S WORTH POINTING OUT AS WE END THIS, IF THERE IS ONE THING THAT SUPPORTERS OF AN ABRUPT U.S. WITHDRAWAL WITH AFGHANISTAN HAD IN COMMON IS THAT THEY WERE ALMOST ENTIRELY MEN.

I THINK AS WE HEARD FROM PASHTANA, THERE IS A LOT OF WORK AND A LOT OF BRAVE YOUNG WOMEN AND GIRLS THERE WHO HAVE FOUGHT HARD TO GET WHERE THEY ARE.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THEIR STORIES.

RORY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

WE TURN NOW TO ANOTHER HUMAN RIGHTS CRISIS IN BELARUS WHERE DICTATOR ALEKSANDER LUKASHENKO IS TIGHTENING HIS IRON GRIP.

UNTIL RECENTLY THE BELARUSIAN OLYMPIAN KRYSTSINA TSIMANOUSKAYA WAS NOT RECOGNIZED, AND IT ALL STARTED WHEN SHE CRITICIZED HER COACHES ON INSTAGRAM.

SHE WAS BEING FORCED TO TRAVEL BACK HOME, BUT A CALL WITH HER FAMILY PERSUADED HER TO SEEK ASYLUM OUTSIDE OF BELARUS.

A PAINFUL DECISION THAT HAS DRAWN INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION TO THE DIRE STATE OF AFFAIRS IN HER COUNTRY.

WHEN I SPOKE WITH KRYSTSINA IN ENGLISH AND OCCASIONALLY IN RUSSIAN SHE SHARED THE INSIDE STORY OF HER ESCAPE.

KRYSTSINA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

MY FIRST QUESTION IS HOW ARE YOU DOING NOW THAT YOU ARE IN POLAND FOR A WEEK?

SO I THINK Y I'M OKAY AND I AM HERE IN POLAND WITH MY HUSBAND.

WE LIVE IN SAME HOUSE THAT IS REALLY SAFETY FOR US AND WE HAVE SOME SECURITY AND SOME BODY GUARD, I THINK, AND WE FEEL, LIKE, REALLY SAFE HERE IN POLAND.

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT HAPPENED IN TOKYO AFTER YOU POSTED THAT VIDEO ON INSTAGRAM?

YEAH.

FIRST WHAT HAPPENED, I SAW IN TV OR IN BELARUSIAN TV THAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT ME.

THEY SHOW MY VID WHY FROM INSTAGRAM AND TALKING THAT I HAVE SOME MENTAL PROBLEMS, AND A REALLY BAD SPORTSMAN AND TWO COACHES FROM MY TEAM THEY COME TO ME, TO MY ROOM AND SAY THAT I SHOULD BE ABLE TO COME BACK TO HOME, AND NO RUN FOR ME AT THE OLYMPIC GAMES AND IT WAS NOT THEIR DECISION.

IT WAS A DECISION FROM SOMEONE FROM MINSK AND THAT I SHOULD DO IT AND THAT'S ALL.

AND THIS HAPPENED AFTER THEY CAME TO YOU AND SURPRISED YOU BY TELLING YOU THAT YOU WERE GOING TO RUN AND COMPETE IN THE 4 x 4 RELAY.

THAT IS NOT YOUR AREA, AND ONE CAN UNDERSTAND WHY YOU WERE UPSET AFTER THAT.

WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO RECORD THAT CONVERSATION?

YOU WERE CRYING.

YOU WERE VERY UPSET.

WHY WAS IT IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO RECORD IT?

I SAW IN MY PROFILE THAT I HAVE 100, 200 AND RELAY, AND NO ONE DON'T ASK ME IF I WANT TO RUN RELAYS OR NOT.

SO I NEVER RUN 400 METERS IN MY SPORT CAREER.

NEVER.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO RUN THIS DISTANCE.

FOR ME IT'S TOO MUCH, AND I WAS SURPRISED BECAUSE NEVER -- NO ONE DON'T TALK WITH ME OR WITH MY COACH, AND WHEN I TRYING TO ASK THEM I SENT MESSAGE TO THEM, IS IT TRUE OR NOT?

THEY DON'T ANSWER ME IN FEW HOURS AND THEN I DECIDE TO SPEAK ABOUT THIS SITUATION IN MY INSTAGRAM, BUT I WAS SURPRISED WHAT HAPPENED NEXT IN A FEW DAYS.

IT WAS A SHOCK FOR ME.

WE HEARD YOUR CONVERSATION WITH YOUR COACHES, YOU RECORDED IT AND YOU WERE CRYING.

YOU WERE VERY UPSET, AND WHY DID YOU RECORD IT?

YEAH.

BECAUSE WHEN HE COME TO MY ROOM AND HE STARTED TO TALK THAT MY SPORT CAREER CAN BE FINISHED AND WHEN I COME BACK TO BELARUS, AND SOMEONE TELL THAT I SHOULD COME BACK TO HOME, AND I STARTED TO CRY ABOUT THIS BECAUSE I WAS REALLY UPSET.

I COME TO THE OLYMPIC GAMES FOR RUNNING BECAUSE I WANTED TO RUN MY NEXT DISTANCE, AND I CAN'T DO IT.

SO THIS -- AT THIS MOMENT I DECIDED TO TAKE MY PHONE AND MAKE SOME AUDIO ABOUT OUR TALKING WITH MY MAIN COACH.

AND BECAUSE YOU DID THAT YOU LIKELY HELPED THE IOC WITH THE EVIDENCE THAT YOUR COACHES ARE NOW SUSPENDED AND HAVE BEEN REMOVED.

THEY WERE REMOVED FROM THE OLYMPICS AND THAT WAS BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU DID AND A QUICK THINKING TO RECORD THE PHONE CALL.

YOUR GRANDMOTHER CONVINCED YOU, CALLED YOU AND TOLD YOU NOT TO COME HOME.

WHAT DID SHE SAY AND WHY?

SHE JUST SAYING DON'T COME BACK TO THE BELARUS BECAUSE HERE IT'S DANGEROUS FOR YOU, AND IT WAS ALL, BUT TWO DAYS LATER WHEN I WAS SAYING WHY YOU SAY THIS TO ME.

SOMEONE IN BELARUS CALLED MY GRANDMOTHER AND SAID WHAT CAN HAPPEN TO ME IF I GO BACK HOME.

IT CAB JUST JAIL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL CLINIC BECAUSE ALREADY IN OUR TV THEY SAY THAT I HAVE SOME MENTAL PROBLEM, BUT OF COURSE, IT'S NOT TRUE.

[ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ] THANKS TO GRANDMOTHER FOR QUICK THINKING.

YEAH.

AND YOU SAID WHICH IS SO IMPORTANT YOU ARE NOT AFRAID OF WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO YOUR CAREER AND YOUR FUTURE IN ATHLETICS IN BELARUS.

YOU WERE AFRAID FOR YOUR FREEDOM THAT YOU WERE GOING TO BE IMPRISONED.

THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

YES, OF COURSE.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT TO OUR VIEWERS ABOUT WHAT LIFE IS LIKE UNDER LUKASHENKO NOW?

JUST THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT PEOPLE IN BELARUS ARE REALLY AFRAID TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT GOVERNMENT OR WHICH ONES THEY DON'T LIKE OR I DON'T KNOW HOW TO EXPLAIN, BUT EVERYONE IN BELARUS IS REALLY AFRAID ABOUT THEIR LIFE AND ABOUT THEIR PARENTS AND ABOUT EVERYTHING.

BEFORE YOUR INSTAGRAM POST, WERE YOU AFRAID OF LIVING IN BELARUS?

NO, I'M NOT AFRAID BEFORE OLYMPIC GAMES BECAUSE I LIVE IN BELARUS.

WERE YOU AFRAID OF WHAT WOULD HAPPEN AFTER THAT?

AT THIS MOMENT I DON'T THINK ABOUT WHAT CAN HAPPEN.

I DON'T KNOW.

I DID IT, AND I DON'T THINK ABOUT THIS.

I JUST TALKING IN MY INSTAGRAM BECAUSE USUALLY I TALKING ABOUT ALL MY LIFE AND MY INSTAGRAM SO I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT IT CAN BE LIKE THIS.

YOU WERE EMOTIONAL.

IT WAS AN EMOTIONAL MOMENT AND YOU EXPRESSED HOW YOU FELT.

LET ME TELL OUR VIEWERS HOW LUKASHENKO RESPONDED TO WHAT HAPPENED WITH YOU IN HIS ADDRESS TO THE COUNTRY.

HE SPOKE FOR EIGHT HOURS THIS WEEK, AND HE TALKED ABOUT YOU.

HE SAID THAT YOU WERE MANIPULATED BY POLISH FRIENDS, THAT IT WAS NOT YOUR IDEA TO LEAVE BELARUS FOR POLAND, THAT YOU WERE CONVINCED AND PUSHED BY OTHERS TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

WHAT DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT WITH?

IT'S NOT TRUE BECAUSE WHEN I DECIDE TO NOT COME BACK TO BELARUS I TEXTED TO THE SPORTS AUTHORITY AND ASKED WHAT I CAN DO.

I DO NOT WANT TO COME BACK HOME BECAUSE FOR ME IT'S REALLY DANGEROUS AND THEY ANSWERED TO ME THAT THEY WOULD TRY TO HELP ME WITH THIS SITUATION, AND WITH MY TRAVELING TO THE EUROPE, BUT NOT BEFORE.

THERE HAVE BEEN MANY SANCTIONS NOW PUT ON LUKASHENKO AND HIS REGIME AFTER AFTER THE INCIDENT WITH PROTASEVICH.

SANCTIONS FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE UNITED STATES.

SHOULD THERE BE MORE SANCTIONS?

SHOULD BELARUS BE BANNED FROM FUTURE OLYMPIC GAMES UNDER LUKASHENKO?

[ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ]

> DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A DISSIDENT NOW?

NO.

NO, I DON'T THINK.

DO YOU WANT TO GO BACK TO BELARUS ONE DAY?

YEAH.

WE THINK ABOUT THIS.

THIS IS OUR COUNTRY.

THIS IS PLACE WHERE WE'RE BORN, AND OF COURSE, WE WANT TO COME BACK TO BELARUS, BUT ONLY WHEN BELARUS WILL BE FREE AND WILL BE SAFETY FOR US.

WHAT IS NEXT FOR YOU?

I KNOW POLAND OFFERED YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE WITH THEIR SPORTS PROGRAM.

ARE YOU GOING TO WORK WITH THEM?

WILL YOU BE A POLISH ATHLETE?

NOW WE DISCUSS ABOUT THIS IN MINISTRY OF SPORT IN POLAND, BUT THIS IS DIFFICULT BECAUSE IF WE CHANGE SOME NATIONAL TEAM THEN WE SHOULD HAVE SOME -- SOME -- IF IT CHANGED SOME COUNTRIES THEN WE HAVE SOME SPORTS COUNTRY AROUND THREE YEARS AND AT FIRST, I THINK WE SHOULD DECIDE WITH ATHLETICS.

DO YOU FEEL SAFE EVEN IN POLAND?

LUKASHENKO HAS CALLED EUROPED'S LAST DICTATOR.

35,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN IMPRISONED IN BELARUS.

ONE OPPOSITION LEADER, AS YOU KNOW, WAS BELIEVED TO BE KILLED IN KIEV AND UKRAINE.

DO YOU FEEL SAFE IN POLAND?

YES.

I THINK HERE IN POLAND I FEEL LIKE REALLY SAFE AND HOPEFULLY IT WILL BE LIKE THAT.

HOW IS YOUR FAMILY BACK HOME?

HOW IS YOUR BABUSHKA?

HOW IS YOUR GRANDMOTHER?

THEY WANT TO BE IN BELARUS.

THEY DON'T WANT TO LEAVE COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY'RE OLD PEOPLE AND MAYBE FOR US IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT SO HARD TO CHANGE COUNTRY BECAUSE WE ARE YOUNG, WE CAN CHANGE OUR LIFE, WE CAN CHANGE OUR JOB, BUT FOR MY PARENTS AND FOR PARENTS OF MY HUSBAND IT'S REALLY HARD ALSO BECAUSE MY FATHER, HE HAS SOME PROBLEM WITH HEALTH AND PARENTS OF MY HUSBAND HAVE THE SAME SITUATION, BUT WE HOPE WE CAN MEET WITH EACH OTHER SOMEWHERE HERE IN POLAND AND MAYBE IN THE FUTURE.

I DON'T KNOW, BUT HOPEFULLY THE DAY WILL BE IN BELARUS BECAUSE THEY DON'T DO NOTHING AGAINST OF GOVERNMENT, AND JUST -- THE SITUATION IT HAPPENED WITH ME AND THIS IS JUST MY PROBLEM.

NOT PROBLEM OF MY PARENTS.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO TELL THE WORLD ABOUT YOUR LIFE IN BELARUS AND THE LIFE OF OTHER ATHLETES AND AVERAGE CITIZENS UNDER LUKASHENKO TODAY?

SO I JUST -- I WANT TO SAY FOR PEOPLE FROM MY COUNTRY THAT -- [ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ] [ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ]

KRYSTSINA -- [ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ] GOOD LUCK TO YOU AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

THANK YOU.

SOME POWERFUL LAST WORDS THERE AND WE WILL, OF COURSE, CONTINUE TO FOLLOW KRYSTSINA'S STORY.

WE TURN NEXT TO CALIFORNIA AND THOSE DEVASTATING WILDFIRES SCORCHING THE STATE.

OUR NEXT GUEST KNOWS WHAT IT'S LIKE TO TACKLE THOSE BLAZES.

JESSICA WHO IS ONLY USING HER FIRST NAME FOR PRIVACY SERVED AS A FIREFIGHTER IN A PRISON PROGRAM.

HER HEARTBREAKING EXPERIENCE WITNESSING THE DEATH OF A FELLOW INMATE FIREFIGHTER IS INCLUDED IN THE NEW BOOK 'BREATHING FIRE' BY JOURNALIST JAMIE LOWE.

HERE THEY BOTH ARE SPEAKING TO HARY STRONOVASEN.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

JAMIE, GIVE US A SCALE OF HOW WIDE SPREAD THIS PRACTICE IS.

RIGHT YOU IN WE ARE WATCHING STORIES OF FIRES RAVAGING THROUGH CALIFORNIA.

HOW MANY INMATES ARE ON THESE LINES, MALE AND FEMALE AND WHAT SORT OF WORK ARE THEY DOING WHEN WE SEE WHAT WE SEE ON TV.

THE PROGRAM IS SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER THIS YEAR BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC AND IT WAS LAST YEAR ALSO, USUALLY IT'S ABOUT 30% OF THE FIREFIGHTER CREWS.

RIGHT NOW I THINK THERE'S ABOUT A THOUSAND, YOU KNOW, WITHIN CAMPS AND INCARCERATED FIREFIGHTER CREWS.

I SAW A PICTURE OF A CREW THAT WAS CLEARING AREAS AROUND A HOUSE THAT WAS IMMERSED IN THE DIXIE FIRE.

THAT'S COMPLICATED BECAUSE THE HOMEOWNER SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR CLEARING AREAS AROUND THEIR HOUSES IF THEY LIVE IN HIGH FIRE RISK ZONES AND IT'S NOT -- IT SHOULDN'T NECESSARILY FALL TO INCARCERATED CREWS TO BE PROTECTING SHELTERS, BUT THEY ARE.

WHEN YOU SEE THESE FIRES ON TV RATE NOW THAT ARE HAPPENING SO REGULARLY IN CALIFORNIA, MOST OF US SEE IT FROM A DISTANCE AND HAVE NEVER STOOD ON A FIRE LINE.

SO JUST TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT GOES THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOU SEE THIS.

WHAT'S IT LIKE TO FIGHT A WILDFIRE?

IT'S REALLY, REALLY HARD.

YOU FEEL LIKE YOUR FEET ARE ON FIRE.

YOU'RE PANICKING AT ANY MOMENT BECAUSE YOU FEEL LIKE YOU CAN'T BREATHE, EVEN THOUGH YOU KNOW THAT YOU CAN BREATHE, BUT YOU'RE INHALING THIS THICK SMOKE.

YOUR CAPTAIN IS CONSTANTLY, LIKE, HURRY UP, HURRY UP.

THEY'RE EXPECTING YOU TO BE ALMOST LIKE A SLAVE.

I KNOW SLAVERY IS WAY WORSE, BUT THEY HAVE YOU, LIKE, HURRY UP, HURRY UP, LIKE, ON YOUR TOES AND FOR EVERYTHING THEY WANT TO THREATEN YOU WITH A DIRECT ORDER.

YOU'RE NOT LISTENING.

I'M GOING TO ADD TIME, AND IF ANYONE GETS INJURED I FEEL BAD.

I FEEL BAD BECAUSE SOMETIMES THE GIRLS ARE TIRED AND YOU'RE ON THE FIRE AND YOU SEE THESE STAFF AND THEY'RE SITTING DOWN AND WE ASK WHY CAN'T WE SIT DOWN AND IF WE'RE STANDING STILL ON THE MOUNTAIN, YOU CANNOT SIT DOWN EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE THIS WEIGHT ON YOU.

YOU HAVE BACKPACKS ON YOU AND THEN WHEN WE EAT, WE CAN ONLY EAT ONE TIME AND REALLY FAST.

YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST CRAZY AND I FEEL SO BAD FOR THEM AND I PRAY FOR THEM ALL OF THE TIME WHEN I SEE THEM ON THE NEWS BECAUSE I KNOW IT IS SO HARD TO BE OUT THERE.

JESSICA, OUR AUDIENCE IS PROBABLY NOT FAMILIAR, WHEN YOU SAY FREE WORLD, THE NON-INCARCERATED FIREFIGHTERS.

YOU ARE CLEARING ALL OF THE BRUSH IN THE FIRST PLACE.

YOU ARE DIGGING THE TRENCHES AND YOU'RE PULLING OUT THE ROOTS TO TRY TO CREATE FIRE LINES?

YES.

SO WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE CREATING A BARE MINERAL SOIL.

WE ARE CHOPPING DOWN ALL OF THE TREES AND THE STUMPS AND THEY'RE SCRAPING THE BARE DIRT TO MAKE SURE THERE'S NO FUEL ON THE LINE SO WE CAN TRY TO PREVENT THE FIRE FROM JUMPING OVER.

AND HOW PHYSICALLY HARD IS THAT WORK WHEN IT MIGHT BE DARK, IT MIGHT BE MORE LIKELY THAN NOT UPHILL, DOWNHILL.

IT IS VERY HARD AND MORE SO WHEN YOU ARE TIRED, TO THE POINT THAT YOU'RE FALL ASLEEP WORKING AND THAT HAS HAPPENED TO US ON A COUPLE OF OCCASIONS.

YOUR BODY IS JUST SO TIRED AND YOU'RE TRYING TO GO, GO, AND YOU ARE KIND OF TRAINED FOR THE ENDURANCE TO KEEP GOING, BUT THERE'S A POINT WHEN YOUR BODY IS JUST SHAKING AND YOU FEEL LIKE I CAN'T GO NO MORE, BUT NOBODY CAN DO ANYTHING.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

TELL THE CAPTAIN YOU'RE TIRED AND THEY'LL YELL AT YOU TO KEEP GOING AND ADD MORE TIME.

YOU DON'T WANT TO GET KICKED OUT.

WE DON'T WANT THESE PROBLEMS EVEN THOUGH WE'RE HUMANS.

WE'RE TIRED.

JAMIE, THE PROGRAM FOR HAVING INMATES WORK ON ALL OF THESE PROJECTS SAVES THE STATE A TON OF MONEY.

I MEAN, THESE PEOPLE -- GIVE US AN IDEA OF WHAT THEY EARN WHILE THEY'RE DOING THIS JOB, CLEARING BRUSH OR FIGHTING FIRES VERSUS WHAT WE WOULD BE PAYING FIREFIGHTERS TO DO.

SO WHEN I STARTED REPORTING THERE WERE 256 A DAY AND ABOUT A DOLLAR TO SOMETIMES $2 AN HOUR ON THE LINE, AND IT'S SINCE BEEN INCREASED TO $5 A DAY IN CAMP AND THE HOURLY WAGE IS NOT INCREASED AND THE CDCR HAD ON THEIR WEBSITE AND THE PROGRAM SAVES IT $100 MILLION A YEAR AND I THINK RIGHT NOW THEY HAVE 8,000 PEOPLE AND THAT INCLUDES INCARCERATED FIREFIGHTERS AND FORESTRY IS INVOLVED AND MUNICIPAL CREWS ARE INVOLVED AND GENERALLY AND THIS IS A PROBLEM, TOO, BUT FEDERAL FIREFIGHTERS WILL MAKE ABOUT $38,000 A YEAR WHICH IS SO LOW THAT IT'S REALLY HARD TO RECRUIT FOR THOSE POSITIONS.

THIS ENTIRE BOOK CAME FROM YOU READING A RELATIVELY SMALL ARTICLE IN 'THE LOS ANGELES TIMES' ABOUT A HORRIBLE TRAGEDY AT THE MULHOLLAND FIRE.

YEAH.

I WAS ACTUALLY HOME AT MY MOM'S HOUSE, AND I THINK IT WAS FEBRUARY OF 2016 WHEN SOMEONE PASSED AWAY AND IT WAS A 500-WORD STORY IN THE B SECTION, AND I WAS STRUCK IMMEDIATELY BY TWO THINGS.

ONE, I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW INCARCERATED FIRE CAMPS EXISTED.

AND I KNOW THE HILLS.

I KNOW THE TRAILS.

I KNOW IT IS ROADS, AND I HAD NO IDEA THAT THEY WERE CLEARED, MAINTAINED AND PRESERVED BY CREWS, AND THE OTHER THING THAT STRUCK ME THAT SEAN WAS PRESENTED IN SORT OF A TWO-SENTENCE SUMMARY AND IT WAS ALL RELATED TO HER CRIME, AND I REALLY JUST -- I WANTED TO KNOW A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT HER.

I WANTED TO KNOW WHO SHE WAS BEFORE SHE WAS INCARCERATED.

I WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT HER FAMILY.

I WANTED TO KNOW WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR HER IN CAMP.

JESSICA, YOU WERE ON THE FIRE LINE NEXT TO SHAUNA LYNN WHEN THE ACCIDENT HAPPENED.

IF YOU COULD JUST DESCRIBE WHAT IT WAS LIKE.

THIS IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

YOU'VE BEEN TREKKING UP AND DOWN OVER HILLS, CLEARING BRUSH.

WHAT HAPPENED?

SO, WHEN WE FINISHED OUR ASSIGNMENT THAT WE WERE ASSIGNED TO WHEN WE FIRST GOT OFF THE BUGGY, WE WERE TOLD WE'RE ALMOST DONE AND WE MIGHT GO BACK TO CAMP AND IT MIGHT FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO DO, SO THE GIRL BEFORE ME IN LINE COMES UP AND SHAUNA COMES UP AND SHE JUST LOOKS AT ME, LIKE, WOW!

THIS IS WHAT I GET.

COUNTY, SUPER, ACRE FIRES AND I'M, LIKE, YEAH, IT'S CRAZY, HUH?

AND WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT THE FIRE, AND AS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A HUNDRED FEET HIGH THESE, LIKE PEBBLES MAYBE THE SIZE OF A DIME AND A QUARTER ARE FALLING AND WE HAVE ABOUT THREE SETS OF CLOTHING ON INCLUDING OUR FIRE GEAR, AND WE COULD FEEL THE ROCKS.

I'M HOLDING MY CHAIN SAW LIKE THIS SO I CAN FEEL THE ROCKS HITTING ME HERE, HERE AND HERE, HITTING ME AND THEY HURT.

THEY'RE COMING FROM A HUNDRED FEET HIGH AND SO WE'RE RIGHT THERE TALKING AND DISCUSSING ABOUT WHETHER WE'RE MOVING OR NOT, THERE'S A BIG GIANT BOULDER THAT COMES AND HITS SHAUNA NEXT TO ME AND -- I JUST STARTED HEARING THE GIRLS SCREAM.

I TURNED AROUND AND I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW -- I THOUGHT IT WAS LIKE A -- NOT A JOKE, BUT I WAS, LIKE, WHAT IS SHE DOING?

WHY IS SHE LAYING -- I DON'T KNOW WHY MY MIND THOUGHT THAT AND I TURNED AROUND, LIKE, SHAUNA?

AND I SEE THIS SHE'S UNRESPONSIVE SO I GET CLOSER AND I'M, LIKE, SHAUNA?

LIKE, AND I'M, LIKE, GET UP, AND I SEE HER AND I'M -- THAT'S WHEN I START TO NOTICE THAT BLOOD STARTS COMING OUT OF HER EARS AND HER NOSE AND HER LIPS ARE GETTING BLUE AND THE GIRLS ARE SCREAMING AND THEY'RE, LIKE, SHE'S DEAD.

SHE GOT HIT AND THEY'RE, LIKE, RUNNING TO THE CLIFF THAT WE WERE AT WHERE WE ALMOST FELL, YOU KNOW?

AND SO I'M, LIKE, HEY, GIRLS THERE IS A CLIFF AND I START RUNNING THAT WAY TO HELP THEM BECAUSE OUR BOSS IS ON THE TOP.

THE LAST TWO GIRLS THAT HELP OUT WITH THE CREW, THEY'RE ALSO TRYING TO GIVE SHAUNA CPR.

WHEN I TURNED AROUND TO SEE WHERE SHAUNA WAS LAYING DOWN.

SHE WOULD ALWAYS WEAR HER CHINSTRAP AND HER HELMET WAS TO THE SIDE AND HER HEAD WAS SLID OPEN AND A LOT WAS COMING OUT AND THE GIRLS LOOKED AT HER AND THEY GAVE HER CPR, BUT NONE THE OF THE STAFF WANTED TO TOUCH HER BECAUSE SHE WAS AN INMATE AND THE INMATES WERE TRYING TO GIVE HER CPR AND BAILEY WAS TRYING TO TELL THEM HOW TO DO IT AND HE CALLED FOR THE HELICOPTER TO COME DOWN AND THE HELICOPTER CAME DOWN AND THEY TOOK SHAUNA.

I'M SO SADDENED TO HEAR THAT YOU HAD TO LIVE THROUGH THAT, AND SHE WAS ALMOST DONE WITH HER TIME.

IT ADDS LAYERS OF TRAGEDY TO WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT SLOPE.

SO, JAMIE, YOU HAD A DETAIL IN THERE THAT EVEN AFTER THIS TRAGEDY WHEN SHAUNA IS AIRLIFTED TO A HOSPITAL THAT SHE WAS STILL HANDCUFFED TO HER GURNEY.

IS THAT JUST STANDARD PROCEDURE?

IT IS IF YOU'RE INCARCERATED AND SOMETHING HAPPENS TO YOU, YOU'RE ALWAYS IN A PERSON OF THIS STATE -- WHO THE STATE REGARDS YOU AS A PRISONER.

I BECAME VERY CLOSE WITH DIANA, SHAUNA'S MOM THROUGH THE REPORTING, AND ONE OF THE NURSES WAS AT THE HOSPITAL TOLD DIANA THAT THIS WAS HOW SEANA WAS BROUGHT TO THE AIRPORT, AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, TO KNOW THAT THAT'S HOW SHE WAS TRANSFERRED AND HOW SHE WAS TREATED AND HOW SHE WAS REGARDED WHEN SHE WAS SAVING THE STATE.

SHE WAS SAVING A NEIGHBORHOOD FROM A FIRE.

SO IS THERE A REASON FOR THESE TYPES OF PROGRAMS TO CONTINUE.

KNOW GOVERNOR GAVIN NEWSOM, HE SAID LAST YEAR WAS LOOKING AT WAYS TO TRY TO KIND OF CREATE A PIPELINE FOR WORK FROM THESE WOMEN AND MEN WHO WERE WORKING AS FIREFIGHTERS.

SO, GOVERNOR NEWSOM'S BEEN PRETTY UNCLEAR, ACTUALLY, ABOUT WHAT EXACTLY THAT MEANS.

HE HAS CLOSED EIGHT CAMPS SINCE IN THE PAST YEAR AND THAT'S LARGELY BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ENOUGH NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING.

HE ALSO PASSED A BILL CALLED AB-2147 WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO EXPEDITE EXPUNGEMENT FOR FORMERLY INCARCERATED FIREFIGHTERS.

THE BILL IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, BUT IT'S JUST NOT NEARLY ENOUGH.

IT DOESN'T GUARANTEE A JOB.

IT DOESN'T TRACK ANY DATA TO SEE WHO IS ACTUALLY BENEFITING.

IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY, THE AGENCIES WHO ARE STILL LOOKING TO HIRE CAN SEE CRIMINAL RECORDS, AND SO THERE STILL CAN BE DISCRIMINATORY PRACTICES.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, CAL FIRE AND MUNICIPAL AGENCIES THAT HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF DISCRIMINATION.

JESSICA, WHAT HAD FIGHTING THESE FIRES OR WORKING ON THESE SLOPES, WHAT DID IT TEACH YOU?

WAS THERE ANYTHING GOOD THAT CAME OUT OF IT, CONSIDERING THAT YOU WERE FEET AWAY FROM THIS TRAGEDY THAT HAPPENED TO YOUR FRIEND?

YEAH.

I FEEL LIKE A LOT OF GOOD THINGS HAPPENED, AND FOR ME, IT REALLY BROUGHT OUT MY WORK ETHIC.

THEY SHOWED ME THAT I TRANSITIONED TO FIRST AND I WAS LEADING THE LINE, AND I FELT LIKE THAT WAS A BIG RESPONSIBILITY BECAUSE I COULD AREN'T LET MY CREW DOWN.

THEY SHOWED ME LEADERSHIP IN LIFE.

THEY SHOWED ME HOW I CAN PUSH MYSELF TO AN ABILITY THAT I NEVER THOUGHT THAT I WOULD BE ABLE TO DO, AND YOU KNOW, THEY TEACH YOU HOW TO BUILD GOOD YOU MIGHT WANT GET ALONG WITH, AND ALSO HOW TO RESPECT PEOPLE AROUND YOU AND HOW TO BE PART OF A CREW AND WORK.

SO, JAMIE, THAT WOULD ALMOST SEEM LIKE AN AD FOR THE PROGRAM, SO WHAT KINDS OF REFORMS SHOULD THE CALIFORNIA PRISON SYSTEM AND OTHER PRISON SYSTEMS MAKE WHERE YOU CAN STILL GET SOME OF THOSE BENEFITS THAT JESSICA'S TALKING ABOUT WITHOUT THE STRUCTURE THAT IT HAS TODAY WHERE THERE ARE SUCH A LONG LIST OF PROBLEMS THAT YOU DETAIL IN THE BOOK.

SURE.

IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT THE PROGRAM AND THEY DID SPEAK TO MANY, MANY OF THE BENEFITS AS JESSICA MENTIONED AND THERE IS ALMOST THIS, LIKE, LONGING FOR HAVING BEEN THERE, NOT FOR BEING IMPRISONED, BUT THERE WAS A TIME THAT IT WAS BENEFICIAL AND TRANSFORMATIVE.

THE THING THAT IS PROBLEMATIC IS THAT THEY'RE NOT PAID ENOUGH.

THEY SHOULD BE PAID AT LEAST MINIMUM WAGE.

THERE SHOULD BE A DIRECT LINK TO JOB AND A GUARANTEE IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO PURSUE IT AND THERE SHOULD BE MORE SUPPORT WITH IT, AND THEY SHOULDN'T BE PRISONERS WHILE FIGHTING FIRES AND IF THEY'RE LOW-LEVEL PRISONERS, THEN THE TERM OF THE PEOPLE WHO CAN QUALIFY FOR THE PROGRAM THEY SHOULD HAVE THE OPTION TO THEN GO TO FIRE CAMP, BE PAID AND BE PART OF SOMETHING LIKE CALIFORNIA CONSERVATION CORPS OR AMERICORP AND DO TIME IN THAT WAY BECAUSE BEING A FIREFIGHTER IS ONE OF THE HARDEST, MOST TAXING MENTALLY AND PHYSICAL JOBS OUT THERE RIGHT NOW AND TO DO THAT WHILE YOU'RE ALSO A PRISONER AND BEING, YOU KNOW, MONITORED BY CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS BY POTENTIALLY HAVING TIME ADDED, BY HAVING TO DEAL WITH ALL OF THE TRAUMA OF BEING IMPRISONED, IT'S JUST TOO MUCH.

IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

THE BOOK IS CALLED 'BREATHING FIRE,' AUTHOR JAMIE LOWE AND ONE OF THE FIREFIGHTERS OF THE MULHOLLAND FIRE, JESSICA.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

VERY EMOTIONAL TESTIMONY THERE AND ALSO AN OPPORTUNITY FOR REFORM.

FINALLY, FORMER CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER HAS A BLUNT MESSAGE FOR ANYONE REFUSING A VACCINE.

HERE'S WHAT HE TOLD ME EARLIER THIS WEEK DURING A CONVERSATION I MODERATED BETWEEN HIM AND FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY STAFFER ALEXANDER VINMAN.

SCREW YOUR FREEDOM BECAUSE WITH FREEDOM COME OBLIGATIONS AND RESPONSIBILITIES.

WE CANNOT JUST SAY I HAVE THE RIGHT IT TO X, Y, Z.

WHEN YOU AFFECT OTHER PEOPLE THAT IS WHEN IT GETS SERIOUS.

IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN TRAFFIC LIGHT.

YOU PUT IT IN THE INTERSECTION SO SOMEONE DOESN'T KILL SOMEONE ELSE BY ACCIDENT.

YOU CANNOT SAY NO ONE IS GOING TO TELL ME THAT I HAVE TO STOP HERE AND I HAVE TO STOP AT THIS TRAFFIC LIGHT HERE AND I'LL GO RIGHT THROUGH AND AND THEN YOU KILL SOMEONELES AND THEN YOU DO IT AND IT'S THE SAME THING, AND YOU CANNOT GO PUT THE MASK ON BECAUSE WHEN YOU BREATHE YOU CAN INFECT SOMEONE ELSE AND YOU CAN INFECT SOMEONE THAT THEN GETS SICK AND MAY DIE.

SO THIS IS WHY I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER ON THIS.

AND WHAT DO ARNOLD'S BICEPS AND DR. FAUCI HAVE IN COMMON.

WELL, I'LL LET ARNOLD EXPLAIN THAT ONE.

LOOK, I'M AN EXPERT ON HOW TO BUILD A BICEP, AND SO THEREFORE I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

I'VE STUDIED THIS ISSUE, AND I KNOW EXACTLY HOW TO CREATE THIS, AND THERE'S NO ONE THAT KNOWS MORE ABOUT A BICEP THAN I DO BECAUSE I STUDIED THIS ISSUE FOR 50 YEARS AND THE SAME IS ALSO WITH THE VIRUS THAT PEOPLE AND THE EXPERTS THAT STUDIED THIS YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR AND THEY EXPERIENCED, LIKE FAUCI FOR HIS ENTIRE LIFE.

WHY WOULD YOU NOT BELIEVE SOMEONE LIKE THAT?

SOME SAGE ADVICE FROM THE TERMINATOR HIMSELF.

LISTEN TO THE EXPERTS AND PLEASE GET VACCINATED.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR & COMPANY ON PBS.

CHRISTIANE WILL BE BACK ON MONDAY.

> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.