August 16, 2021

> HELLO, EVERYONE.

AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

> I DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL -- WHAT WILL HAPPEN TOMORROW AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN AFTER.

FEAR AND DESPERATION.

AFGHANISTAN WAKES UP TO A TERRIFYING NEW TALIBAN REALITY.

A SPECIAL HOUR OF NEWS AND ANALYSIS.

I'LL SPEAK TO THE TALIBAN'S MAIN SPOKESMAN.

OUR FRIENDS WILL GET KILLED.

OUR KIM WILL NOT HAVE ANY MORE RIGHTS.

PEACE NEGOTIATOR AND FORMER MP ON THE GRAVE DANGER THEY FACE.

AND --

WE HAVE INVESTED OVER FOUR ADMINISTRATIONS, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, ALONG WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IN THE AFGHAN SECURITY AND DEFENSE FORCES.

AMERICA'S 20-YEAR WAR EFFORT COLLAPSES WITH A WHIMPER.

I ASK THE FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE WHAT THE USA GOT SO WRONG.

PLUS, WHAT THIS SAYS ABOUT THE GLOBAL DEMOCRACY PROJECT WITH BRITISH MP AND WAR VETERAN.

> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.

THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

KU AND PATRICIA EWING, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

OVER THE NEXT HOUR WE WILL HAVE NEWS AND ANALYSIS ON THE TERRIFYING SITUATION UNFOLDING THERE.

A FOREIGN POLICY GAMBLE BY THE UNITED STATES THAT ENDED A TWO-DECADE ANTITERROR EFFORT SINCE 9/11 WHICH HAS NOW COLLAPSED AT LIGHTENING SPEED.

FEAR IS SPREADING IN KABUL AS THE TALIBAN INSTALL THEMSELVES IN THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE.

IF ANYTHING, THE DEVELOPMENTS OF THE PAST WEEK REINFORCED THAT ANY MILITARY REENFORCEMENT AT AFGHANISTAN NOW WAS THE RIGHT DECISION.

AMERICAN TROOPS REQCANNOT AND SHOULD NOT BE DYING IN A WAR THAT AFGHAN FORCES ARE NOT WILLING TO FIGHT FOR THEMSELVES.

BUT FEAR IS SPREADING IN KABUL AS THE TALIBAN INSTALL THEMSELVES IN THE PRESIDENTIAL PAL LANCE WITH THOUSANDS DESPERATE TO FREE FOR THEIR LIVES, THE AIRPORT IS IN A STATE OF CHAOS.

AND THESE ARE PICTURES OF DESPERATE AFGHANS ATTEMPTING TO CHAMBER ON TO A U.S. MILITARY PLANE AS IT LEAVES THE CAPITAL.

AT LEAST THREE AFGHANS WERE RUN OVER AND KILLED.

THE PICTURES OF THE TALIBAN ENSCONCED AND POSING IN THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE TELL THE WHOLE STORY OF WHO IS IN POWER RIGHT NOW.

EARLIER, I ASKED THE TALIBAN SPOKESMAN IN DOHA ABOUT THE PROSPECT OF AN INCLUSIVE NEW AFGHAN GOVERNMENT AS THEY PROMISE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I START BY ASKING YOU EXACTLY WHAT CONVERSATIONS ARE UNDERWAY BETWEEN THE NEW TALIBAN LEADERSHIP IN KABUL AND OTHER AFGHAN CONSTITUENCIES.

IS THERE ANY TALK OR PROGRESS TOWARDS SOME KIND OF NEW GOVERNMENT?

YES.

OUR PROGRAM IS TO FORM AN INCLUSIVE ISLAMIC GOVERNMENT.

SO I EXPECT THAT THERE WILL BE IN A FEW DAYS DELIBERATION FOR THAT.

DO YOU KNOW WHO YOU'RE ASKING THOSE INCLUSIVE TALKS WITH?

WE UNDERSTAND THE FORMER PRESIDENT MIGHT BE INVOLVED, FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER ABDULA, ABDULA.

ARE THESE THE KINDS OF PEOPLE YOU ARE TALKING TO?

I THINK THERE WILL BE SOME WELL-KNOWN FIGURES.

BUT RIGHT NOW, I CAN'T SAY BY NAME.

BUT THERE WILL BE SOME WELL-PHONE FIGURES, YES.

THE TALIBAN AND YOUR LEADERS HAVE SAID THE WAR IS OVER.

WE HAVE WON.

AND THE OCCUPATION FORCES HAVE GONE, AND WE NOW HAVE OUR INDEPENDENCE.

MANY BELIEVE THAT THE TALIBAN SIMPLY WANTS TO TAKE TOTAL CONTROL AND TOTAL POWER.

WHY SHOULD ANYBODY BELIEVE THAT UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES YOU ARE INTERESTED IN OTHER MEMBERS OF THE AFGHAN NATION BEING INVOLVED IN THE FUTURE.

BECAUSE WE THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR DURABLE PEACE IN AFGHANISTAN AND BECAUSE IT IS THE BASIS OF OUR POLICY THAT WE DO NOT WANT MONOPOLY OF POWER.

AND WE CAN HAVE PEACE WHEN ALL PARTS HAVE PARTICIPATION IN A FUTURE GOVERNMENT.

THAT'S WHY WE CALL IT AN INCLUSIVE ISLAMIC GOVERNMENT.

SO FOR THAT REASON, WE WANT TO HAVE THIS INCLUSIVE GOVERNMENT.

SO AS YOU KNOW, FOR THE LAST SEVERAL, I WOULD SAY, MONTHS, CERTAINLY THE NEGOTIATIONS, THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS AND DAYS, AS YOU HAVE CONDUCTED THIS LIGHTENING AND VERY WELL STRIKE THAT GUISED TAKEOVER OF THE COUNTRY, MOST IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY ARE SAYING, WELL, WE CAN'T TRUST WHAT THE TALIBAN SAYS.

LET US LOOK AT WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

SO YOU SAY NO REVENGE.

AMNESTY FOR EVEN THE OTHER SIDE, EVEN THE SOLDIERS FOR THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT SIDE.

AND, YET, YOU CAN SEE THE SCENES OF CHAOS AT THE KABUL AIRPORT WHERE TERRIFIED AFGHANS ARE ESCAPING YOU.

THEY ARE TRYING TO ESCAPE YOU RIGHT NOW, CLINGING TO AIRCRAFTS, FALLING FROM WINGS OF PLANES JUST SCRAMBLING TO GET OUT.

THEY ARE TERRIFIED.

THEY MUST HAVE A REASON TO BE TERRIFIED.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THESE PEOPLE?

THEY DO NOT HAVE A REASON.

WE ISSUED THE STATEMENTS BY THE SPOKESMAN.

SO WHY THEY ARE TERRIFIED?

SO WE ARE ASSURING THEM THAT THERE WILL BE NO RISK TO THEIR PROPERTY, TO THEIR LIVES, TO THEIR HONOR.

SO I'M ALSO SURPRISED WHY THEY ARE TERRIFIED IN FLEEING THE COUNTRY WHILE THE COUNTRY NEEDS THEM.

THIS IS OUR COUNTRY.

OUR COUNTRY.

THIS COUNTRY NEEDS THE CONSTRUCTION.

SO THEY SHOULD COME TOGETHER AND REBUILD THIS COUNTRY, TO HAVE A PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE AND TOLERANCE AMONG EACH OTHER.

SO OBVIOUSLY MANY REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU WERE IN CHARGE IN THE LATE '90s BEFORE 9/11, AND THERE WAS A LOT OF REVENGE AND A LOT OF RETRIBUTION.

BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT THE LAST FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS.

AS YOU KNOW, WE HAVE DISCOVERED A VIDEO THAT'S BEEN ALL OVER THE AIR FROM JULY WITH TALIBAN FIGHTERS EXECUTING 22 AFGHAN COMMANDOS WHO ARE TRYING TO SURRENDER.

THAT IS A TERRIFYING THING.

THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT AND HOPING IT DOESN'T HAPPEN TO THEM.

HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH SAY THAT NOW THE TALIBAN HAVE BEEN DETAINING AND EXECUTING SUSPECTED MEMBERS OF THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT AND SECURITY FORCES AND IN SOME CASES THEIR RELATIVES.

THERE HAVE BEEN ASSASSINATIONS ON THE GOVERNMENT SIDE AS YOU HAVE MOVED FORWARD AND NOW INTO -- INTO KABUL.

SO THESE ARE LEGITIMATE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED.

WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN WHEN WE'RE GETTING REPORTS THAT IT IS HAPPENING?

IT IS A FAKE VIDEO.

I HAVE ALREADY REFUTED THAT.

AND ALL OUR SPOKESMEN.

AND ABOUT IF THERE IS ANY CASE, IF THEY BRING IT, WE WILL INVESTIGATE IT.

ON THE BASIS OF EQUALITY, AMNESTY AND THERE IS NO HARM TO ANYONE.

IF ANYONE CLAIMS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN AFRAID TO THEIR LIVES OR ANY CASE OF ASSASSINATION OR ANY CASE, WE ARE COMMITTED TO INVESTIGATE THAT AND TO BRING THE CULPRIT TO THE FRONT AND TO SEE HIS OR HER PUNISHMENT.

I KNOW YOU SAY THAT'S A FAKE VIDEO AND MAYBE YOU WANT TO DISASSOCIATE YOURSELF FROM IT AT THIS POINT.

BUT CERTAINLY CNN AND OTHERS VERIFIED THAT VIDEO.

BUT LET'S MOVE ON.

YES.

BECAUSE I INVESTIGATED THAT VIDEO.

THAT'S WHY I'M SAYING IT IS A FAKE.

YOUR STATEMENT RECENTLY SAYS OR THE TALIBAN STATEMENT, ALL THOSE WHO PREVIOUSLY WORKED AND HELPED THE INVADERS OR WHO ARE NOW STANDING IN THE RANKS OF THE CORRUPT ADMINISTRATION OF KABUL, THEY HAVE OPENED UP TO ALLOW AMNESTY.

SO NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT THOSE MEMBERS OF THE ORDINARY AFGHAN PEOPLE WHO HAVE HELPED U.S.

FORCES IN THE PAST, WHO HAVE WORKED AS TRANSLATORS, WHO HAVE HELPED THE GOVERNMENT, WHO HAVE HELPED NGOs AND BEEN ON THE FOREFRONT.

THEY ARE DESPERATE TO BE AIR LIFTED OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.

WHAT WILL YOU SAY AND GUARANTEE FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE AFGHANS WHO HAVE WORKED WITH INTERNATIONAL FORCES IN THE PAST?

THEY SHOULD NOT BE TERRIFIED OR DESPAIR.

OUR GUARANTEE ENSURING THERE WILL BE NO PROPERTY TO THEIR HONOR OR LIFE.

THAT IS A COMMITMENT AND GUARANTEE.

IT REFLECTS OUR POSITION.

SO AND THEY CAN SEE IN OUR ADMINI ADMINISTRATION.

THE SCHOOLS ARE OPEN.

THE OFFICES ARE OPEN.

THEY CAN DO THEIR TRADE AND BUSINESS.

THIS IS A PRACTICAL EXAMPLE.

WELL, THEY REPORT AND WE'RE HEARING INTERVIEWS FROM, LET'S SAY, INSIDE KABUL THAT THEY ARE SETTING UP CHECK POINTS IN VARIOUS NEIGHBORHOODS, THAT THEY'RE VERY AFRAID OF HOUSE TO HOUSE SEARCHES, THAT MANY HAVE GONE TO HIDE PARTICULARLY THOSE WHO ARE MORE PROM NINENT AND KNN TO HELP INTERNATIONAL FORCES, ET CETERA.

AND THEY'RE VERY CONCERNED THAT SHOULD THE TALIBAN COME TO THEIR HOUSE AND RECOGNIZE THEM, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, THEY WILL GET THEIR HEAD CUTOFF.

THIS IS A VERY REAL FEAR AND IT IS NOT BASED ON NOTHING.

IT IS BASED ON WHAT HAPPENED THE LAST TIME YOU WERE IN POWER.

SO HAVE YOU CHANGED THAT MUCH?

AND, AGAIN, APART FROM YOUR WORDS, WHY SHOULD PEOPLE BELIEVE YOU?

ABOUT THE CHECK POINTS, THEY ARE TO PREVENT ANY SECURITY THAT REFUSE THE BURGLARS AND THE KIDNAPPERS TO NOT CARRY OUT WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.

THESE CHECK POINTS ARE FOR THE SECURITY OF THE PEOPLE.

THESE CHECK POINTS HAVE NOT BEEN SET UP TO HARASS PEOPLE.

SO BECAUSE THERE WAS A WELCOME.

BEFORE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE ISSUED A STATEMENT THAT OUR FORCES ARE INSTRUCTED TO REMAIN AT THE GATES OF KABUL, THE CITY.

AND WHEN THE KABUL ADMINISTRATION FORCES THEY LIFT THE IMPOSITION AND THEY'RE FULLY STATIONED AND EVERYTHING, THERE WAS A WELCOME.

THE BURGLARS, THE THIEVES, THEY WERE LOADING PEOPLE'S PROPERTIES, HOUSES.

THAT IS WHY WE WERE FORCED TO ENTER THE KABUL CITY.

NOW WE HAVE CHECKED UP THE CHECK POINTS TO PREVENT IT, A CHAOTIC SITUATION AND TO MAINTAIN THE SECURITY OF THE CITY.

SO THEY SHOULD NOT BE WORRIED.

RATHER, THEY SHOULD BE HAPPY WITH THAT.

WELL, CERTAINLY WOMEN ARE NOT HAPPY.

AND I ASKED YOU HAD YOU CHANGED?

AND I JUST WANT TO, YOU KNOW, ASK YOU TO REACT TO SOME OF THESE.

SOME ARE TALKING ABOUT BURNING THEIR CERTIFICATES OF EDUCATION, SOME OF THESE WOMEN.

AND WE HAVE ALREADY HEARD FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENTS ON THE GROUND THAT, YOU KNOW, THE TALIBAN ASKED ONE OF OUR FEMALE CORRESPONDENTS TO MOVE ASIDE BECAUSE SHE WAS A WOMAN AND THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY SHOULDN'T -- WOMEN SHOULD NOT BE, YOU KNOW, INTERACTING WITH ANYBODY, ANY MALE OUTSIDE THEIR FAMILY.

THAT YOUNG GIRLS, YOU SAY THEY WILL BE ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL, BUT ONLY TO A CERTAIN AGE AND ONLY TO STUDY RELIGION.

FOR WOMEN A VERY, VERY TERRIFYING DAY TO SEE THE TALIBAN, YOU ALL, TAKE OVER.

AND I'M WONDERING WHAT YOU CAN GUARANTEE FOR WOMEN SO THAT THEY CAN KEEP THE RIGHTS THAT THEY HAVE GAINED UP UNTIL NOW.

YOU KNOW, THE MEDIA OUTLETS IN KABUL, THEY ARE OPERATIVE.

THEY CARRY OUT THE CASTING ACTIVITIES.

THERE ARE MANY RIGHT NOW BASED IN KABUL.

THEY CARRY OUT THE WORK AND FIGHTING REPORTS FROM HERE AND ALSO THE SCHOOLS WILL BE OPEN AND THE GIRLS AND WOMEN, THEY WILL BE IN SCHOOLS AS TEACHERS AND AS STUDENTS.

SO YOU WILL SEE IT THERE IN A FEW DAYS.

THAT IS MY EXPECTATION.

WELL, WE CERTAINLY WILL OBVIOUSLY BE WATCHING VERY CLOSELY.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ONE FINAL QUESTION.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN FLED THE COUNTRY.

HE SEEMED TO INDICATE THAT IT WAS EITHER A CHOICE BETWEEN BEING EXECUTED ON THE SPOT OR FLEEING.

WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HE HAD STAYED AS YOUR FORCES, YOUR NEW LEADERSHIP ENTERED THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE IN KABUL?

RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE I THERE IN KABUL, NOTHING HAS HAPPENED -- HAPPENED TO THEM.

AND THEIR SECURITY IS MAINTAINED.

IF HE SURRENDERED TO THE PEOPLE, TO THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN AND HE AVOIDED THE BLOODSHED, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR HIM.

SO WHAT HE -- BUT WHEN IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IF HE WAS FIGHTING AND DURING FIGHTING HE WAS THE HARD.

THAT IS ANOTHER STORY.

BUT IF HE HAD SURRENDERED AND HANDED OVER THE POWER PEACEFULLY, OF COURSE HE WILL NOT BE HARMED.

HIS LIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.

ON THAT NOTE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

> AND NOW BEFORE WE TURN TO MY NEXT GUEST, WHO IS A FEMALE AFGHAN LAWMAKER, LET US PAUSE FOR A MINUTE TO REMEMBER HOW UTTERLY BRUTAL LIFE WAS FOR AFGHAN WOMEN WHEN THE TALIBAN WERE LAST IN CHARGE IN THOSE YEARS BEFORE 9/11.

FOR CENTURIES AFGHAN WOMEN HAVE BEEN RULED BY THE DY SIPPLESS O ISLAM.

THEY SUBJECTED WOMEN TO A BRAND OF BAR BARTY MORE CRUEL AND OPPRESSIVE THAN WE HAVE WITNESSED ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

THE TALIBAN'S SQUAD WOULD BEAT THEM FOR SHOWING THEIR FACES, THEIR ANKLES OR EVEN IF A STRAND OF HAIR PEEKED THROUGH THEIR BURKA.

SO YOU HEARD ME ASK ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN TODAY.

HE TOLD ME THEY WOULD KEEP THEIR RIGHTS, BUT MANY ARE TERRIFIED THAT HISTORY WILL REPEAT ITSELF.

A FORMER LAWMAKER AND A MEMBER OF THE FORMER AFGHAN'S NEGOTIATING TEAM IN THOSE PEACE TALKS WITH THE TALIBAN AND SHE'S JOINING ME FROM AFGHANISTAN.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

WE HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU OVER MANY, MANY MONTHS AND YEARS.

AND I'M WONDERING HOW YOU ARE DEALING WITH THE REALITY OF YOUR SITUATION RIGHT NOW.

THANK YOU, CHRISTIAN.

THIS MORNING WHEN I WOKE UP AND I SAW EVERYTHING IS REVERSED TO 20, 22 YEARS BACK, I COULDN'T BELIEVE THAT THE WHOLE 20 YEARS WAS LIKE A DREAM FOR MANY PEOPLE IN AFGHAN TO SEE WE WENT BACK.

IT IS SHOCKING FOR MANY PEOPLE HOW QUICKLY AND RAPIDLY EVERYTHING COLLAPSED AND HOW MILITARY OPERATIONS WERE UNDERTAKEN TO TAKE OVER THE POWER WHILE WE WERE NEGOTIATING.

AND IF ONLY NEGOTIATIONS WERE EXPEDITED, I'M SURE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE CELEBRATED TODAY THE STABILITY OF PEACE.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY, MANY PEOPLE ARE UNCERTAIN ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT FOR THE WOMEN OF AFGHA AFGHANISTAN.

SO MANY AFGHANS WHO HAVE BEEN BORN IN THE LAST 20 YEARS, IT IS A YOUNG NATION, MANY DO NOT REMEMBER OR HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WITH TALIBAN RULE, AND MANY HAVE PUT THEIR FATE IN A BETTER FUTURE.

CERTAINLY WOMEN AND GIRLS HAVE HAD A BETTER FUTURE AND A BETTER OPPORTUNITY.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING, IF ANYTHING, FROM YOUR FEMALE FRIENDS, FROM PARENTS WITH YOUNG GI GIRLS.

ARE PEOPLE HIDING OUT?

ARE THEY WAITING TO SEE?

DO THEY FEAR THE WORST?

DO THEY BELIEVE WHAT THE TALIBAN IS SAYING PUBLICALLY, THAT THEY WILL HAVE THEIR RIGHTS GUARANTEED?

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING?

WELL, THE SITUATION IS VERY CHAOTIC, CHRISTIAN.

IN A LAWLESS SOCIETY WHERE THERE IS A VACUUM OF POWER, PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO BE TERRIFIED AND TO BE UNCERTAIN ABOUT THEIR FUTURE.

IN MY LIFETIME, I HAVE SEEN MANY REGIME CHANGE THROUGH MILITARY COUP OR MILITARY TAKEOVER, BUT CERTAINLY NOT MY DAUGHTERS AND NOT THE YOUNGER GENERATION OF AFGHANISTAN.

THEY HAVE GROWN UP WITH THE WORLD TECHNOLOGY AND A DIFFERENT -- A DIFFERENT LIFE, CERTAINLY THE LIFE THAT I HAVE NOT HAD WHEN I WAS A CHILD.

SO FOR THEM TO SEE ANYTHING WENT BACK TO SCRATCH AND THEY SEE THE FLIGHT CHANGE VERY QUICKLY IN THE PROVINCIAL PALACE WAS SHOCKING.

MANY PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THE YOUNG GIRLS AND BOYS WHO WENT TO SCHOOL IN THE PAST 20 YEARS, THEY WENT TO UNIVERSITY, THEY ARE FINANCIALLY SELF-SUFFICIENT, MOST OF THEM, THEY DON'T REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, THE TALIBAN OR THE CIVIL WAR.

BUT THEY HAVE HEARD IT THROUGH THEIR PARENTS.

THEY HAVE HEARD IT IN THE HISTORY.

AND I THINK NOW THEY SEE IT IN SOME PROVINCES.

UNFORTUNATELY IN SOME PLACES TODAY, LIKE FOR INSTANCE IN KABUL WITH JUST THE MILITARY, YOU COULD ONLY SEE RANGERS GOING FROM ONE LOCATION TO THE OTHER OR IN THAT OTHER PROVINCE IS YOU COULD ONLY SEE RANGERS GOING AND MILITARY CARS.

WE HAVE ALSO REPORTS OF WOMEN'S RIGHTS VIOLATIONS AND WOMAN CANNOT GO OUT WITHOUT MALE COMPANY AND TO WORK OR TO EVEN GET THEIR BASIC SUPPLIES.

SO THESE ARE -- THESE ARE NOT NEW TO -- IN TERMS OF THE HISTORY FOR MANY PEOPLE IN AFGHANISTAN.

BUT AFTER 20 YEARS OF BLOOD AND TORTURE, WE WERE HOPING THINGS WOULD BE DIFFERENT.

I SAID IT ON YOUR PROGRAM LAST TIME, AND I MUST ALSO SAY THAT IT IS A FAILURE OF MORALE FOR MANY OF US, INCLUDING FOR OUR -- FOR OUR UNITED STATES FRIENDS.

I THINK IF THE U.S. WOULD HAVE NOT RUSHED THEIR WITHDRAWAL, WE WOULD HAVE THE CHANCE TO REACH A POLITICAL SETTLEMENT IN A WAY THAT EVERYBODY COULD BE PART OF A POLITICAL POWER SHARING GOVERNMENT.

YES, PEOPLE FROM AFGHANISTAN WERE NOT HAPPY WITH THE PREVIOUS PRESIDENT AND THE WAY HE FLEE UPON US.

IT RAISES A LOT OF QUESTIONS.

WE HAVE BEEN WITH OUR PEOPLE IN THEIR EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TIMES.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO STRUGGLE FOR OUR DESIRED COUNTRY.

SO PEOPLE WERE NOT HAPPY WITH THE PREVIOUS SITUATION AS WELL, BUT THEY DID NOT WANT TO GO FROM BAD TO WORSE.

THEY DESERVE A BETTER LIFE.

SO A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS I WANT TO ASK YOU.

OBVIOUSLY THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE TRYING TO FLEE, MANY OF THEM SEEM TO BE PEOPLE WHO WORKED FOR EITHER THE U.S. OR OTHER INTERNATIONALS, WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVISTS ARE AT THE AIRPORT.

MANY, MANY AFGHANS WHO FEEL THAT WHAT THEY DID OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS OVER THE PURSUIT OF FREEDOM AND PEACE AND HUMAN RIGHTS ARE GOING TO MAKE THEM TARGETS FOR THE TALIBAN.

DO YOU BELIEVE WHAT HE TOLD ME AND YOU WERE LISTENING TO THE INTERVIEW, THAT THERE WILL BE AMNESTIES, THAT AFGHANISTAN NEEDS ALL ITS PEOPLE, THAT THE COUNTRY NEEDS TO BE RECONSTRUCTED, THAT THEY DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO FLEE AND THEY GUARANTEE THEM SAFETY AND SECURITY.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

YOU SEE ALL THE EDUCATED, TALENTED AFGHANS WHO WANT TO LEAVE THEIR COUNTRY.

FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL, THE COUNTRY HAS INVESTED THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO BE WHO THEY ARE.

THE FAMILY, THE SOCIETY, THE GOVERNMENT INVESTED IN THEM.

TO SEE THEM BEING SO DISAPPOINTED, I RECEIVE NOW SO MANY TEXT MESSAGES, TELEPHONE CALLS, YOU KNOW, CONTACTS FROM PEOPLE ACROSS AFGHANISTAN.

TRUST ME, EVEN IF I DON'T, FOR WHATEVER REASON, REPLY, THE NEXT QUESTION IS, ARE YOU NOT IN AFGHANISTAN.

THE FACT I'M IN AFGHANISTAN GAVE PEOPLE A MORALE THAT IT WILL BE OKAY.

SO I THINK THE TALIBAN REALLY, THE POLITICAL OFFICE, I HAVE BEEN TALKING WITH THEM.

THEY NEED TO MAKE THEMSELVES RELEVANT.

THEY HAVE BEEN SPEAK ING.

IT HAS BEEN NICE, TO INDICATE THEY HAVE SHIFTED THEIR POLICIES.

BUT FOOT SOLDIERS ARE DOING DIFFERENTLY.

THIS IS SOMETHING I HAVE DELIVERED THE MESSAGE TO SOME OF THESE PEOPLE I HAVE BEEN ENGAGED IN NEGOTIATIONS OVER THE PAST TWO, THREE DAYS THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE MORE STEPS TO GAIN THE TRUST OF THESE PEOPLE.

IT CAN'T BE WITH GUNS.

WE NEED THE TALENT.

AND ABOVE ALL, AN INCLUSIVE GOVERNMENT CAN BRING PEACE AND STABILITY.

STABILITY AND NOT FIGHTING IS NOT PEACE.

IT IS NOT PEACE.

PEOPLE HAVE TO FEEL PEACEFUL.

PEOPLE NEED TO TRUST THE GOVERNMENT.

AND, YES, THERE IS A MILITARY TAKEOVER, BUT WE NEED TO GIVE THE PEOPLE THE VOICE THEY REQUIRE AND THE RESPECT THEY DESERVE IN THE GOVERNMENT.

YOU ARE IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION IN AFGHANISTAN WHICH WE ARE NOT GOING TO REVEAL FOR YOUR OWN SECURITY.

IT IS INTERESTING TO HEAR YOU SAY YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING TO THOSE TALIBAN YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING TO DURING YOUR ROLE AS PEACE NEGOTIATOR.

ARE YOU AFRAID FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY?

DO YOU FEAR A KNOCK ON THE DOOR AT ANY TIME OF DAY OR NIGHT?

IT IS A VERY UNCERTAIN, AS I SAID, UNCERTAIN SITUATION FOR MANY OF US.

SOME OF US WHO HAVE KIND OF INVESTED THEIR ENERGY TO SERVE THE COUNTRY AND CONTRIBUTE TO A FREE, LIBERAL, BETTER AFGHANISTAN FEEL MORE AT RISK.

I HAVE BEEN SHARING MY CONCERNS OVER WHAT I SEE FROM TIME TO TIME TO THOSE WITH WHOM WE HAVE BEEN ENGAGED IN THE NEGOTIATION, AND THEY HAVE BEEN GIVING ME THE RESPONSES THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT WHAT THEY THINK HAS HAPPENED.

BUT I THINK THEY SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY NEED TO TAKE BOTH STEPS, FIRST OF ALL, TO ENSURE THAT THEY WILL NOT REPEAT THE THINGS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN REPEATING SO FAR, THAT THEIR COMMANDERS LISTEN TO THEM, THAT THEIR FOOT SOLDIERS LISTEN TO THEM.

AND PEOPLE SHOULD TRUST THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO REALLY -- I HAVE SEEN -- TODAY I TALKED WITH SOME FEMALE JOURNALISTS.

PROBABLY YOU KNOW MOST OF THEM.

THEY WERE TELLING, THIS COUNTRY IS NOT.

ONLY TWO MONTHS AGO WHEN I TALKED TO THESE WOMEN AND I SAID, DO YOU HAVE A PLAN B?

THEY SAID NO.

THIS IS OUR COUNTRY.

OF COURSE WE WILL STAY FOREVER.

OF COURSE THERE WAS POVERTY AND CORRUPTION IN THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT.

BUT THE FACT THAT THESE PEOPLE HAD THE FREEDOM TO EXPRESS THOSE VIEWS, EXPRESS THE FACT THAT THEY'RE SUFFERING FROM CORRUPTION, FROM POVERTY, I THINK THAT'S WHAT THEY VALUED.

SO I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE TALIBAN SHOULD TAKE BOLD STEPS TO BRING TO GIVE PEOPLE WHAT THEY DESIRE AND INCLUDE PEOPLE IN THE DECISION-MAKING.

FAZIO, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW?

DO YOU FEEL ABANDONED?

YOU CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD, I GUESS, THAT ONE DAY THE U.S. WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE AFGHANISTAN.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY, IF YOU COULD, TO A LEADER, THE PRESIDENT, ANYBODY IF YOU WERE TO SEE AND TALK TO THEM RIGHT NOW AFTER WHAT'S HAPPENED?

RIGHT NOW I'M VERY, VERY ANGRY.

SO PROBABLY RIGHT NOW IS NOT THE RIGHT MOMENT TO GIVE MY MESSAGE, BUT I WILL GIVE IT ANYWAY.

WE DID NOT EXPECT THE UNITED STATES TO BE IN AFGHANISTAN FOREVER.

NOBODY WANTS ANY STATION, FOREIGN NATION, TO BE IN THEIR COUNTRY FOREVER.

THE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN ARE VERY FAMOUS FOR FIGHTING AGAINST FOREIGNERS THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY.

IF YOU LOOK AT OUR HISTORY, THERE IS A LOT OF FIGHTING, AND THE PEOPLE ARE PROUD FOR WHO THEY ARE.

HOWEVER, THE UNITED STATES CAME TO AFGHANISTAN NOT BECAUSE WE INVITED THEM BUT BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THAT AFGHANISTAN CAN BE A THREAT AND IT WAS A THREAT FOR THEIR OWN NATIONAL SECURITY.

THEREFORE, THEY CAME TO AFGHANISTAN.

WE STOOD WITH THEM.

WE WALKED WITH THEM SIDE BY SIDE.

WE PROMOTED THE COMMON PRINCIPLES.

THEY DECIDED TO LEAVE WITHOUT EVEN TALKING OR ASKING PERMISSION.

EVERYTHING IS CENTRIC TO THEIR INTERESTS.

MY MESSAGE WOULD BE IF AFGHANISTAN IS NOT SAFE, TRUST ME, YOUR OWN BORDERS WILL NOT BE SAFE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US UNDER THESE VERY PRECARIOUS CONDITIONS INSIDE AFGHANISTAN.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW YOU.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO MONITOR.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO WATCH AND TO TALK TO YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

SO WHERE DOES THE FAILURE FOR THIS TOTAL COLLAPSE OF THE AFGHAN FORCES LIE?

CHUCK WAS THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM VIRGINIA.

SECRETARY HAGEL, YOU JUST HEARD A VERY WELL KNOWN LEGISLATOR, MEMBER OF THE AFGHAN PEACE NEGOTIATING TEAM EXPRESS HER DEEP DISAPPOINTMENT IN WHAT THE UNITED STATES HAS DONE.

CAN YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT?

AND CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THE ANGER SHE EXPRESSED OF THE AFGHAN PEOPLE TODAY TOWARDS YOUR COUNTRY?

I CAN.

AND IT'S A TRAGIC SITUATION.

SAD, SAD SITUATION, WHICH I -- I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WANTED TO EVER SEE COME.

BUT IT IS HERE.

I THINK IN ASSIGNING BLAME HERE WE NEED TO GO BACK 20 YEARS.

THAT'S HOW LONG THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN THERE.

A LOT OF PTERYGOID TAKES WERE MADE FROM THE TIME WE ENTERED AFGHANISTAN.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S BEEN CONSISTENT, AND YOU TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS WITH YOUR GUEST, IS THAT EACH PRESIDENT, FOUR PRESIDENTS SINCE WE INVADED AND OCCUPIED AFGHANISTAN 20 YEARS AGO SAID WE WILL BE LEAVING.

WE WILL BE COMING OUT.

IT IS THE AFGHAN'S DECISION.

HOW DO THEY WANT TO RUN THEIR COUNTRY?

THE HISTORY OF AFGHANISTAN WE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND AT ALL.

IT HAS NEVER BEEN GOVERNED BY A CENTRAL GOVERNMENT.

THE BRITISH FOUND THAT OUT.

ALEXANDER THE GREAT FOUND THAT OUT.

WE HAVE NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE CULTURE.

WE NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE RELIGION.

WE NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE TRIBALISM, ALL THE DYNAMICS THAT MAKE UP A CULTURE.

HERE WE ARE 20 YEARS AS A WESTERN POWER INTO THIS COUNTRY AND PUTTING A LOT OF MONEY IN IT.

$2 TRILLION.

CORRUPTION, NO SECRET.

THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT IS ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT IN THE WORLD.

SO A LOT OF MISTAKES WERE MADE BY US, BY THE UNITED STATES.

AND I THINK BY THE AFGHANS.

THE PEOPLE WHO GOT CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE, IT IS ALWAYS THE PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE WHO HAVE NO WAY.

THAT'S THE UNFORTUNATE PART OF THIS.

YOU TALK ABOUT WOMEN, GIRLS, RIGHTS, EDUCATION, DRIVING GOOD PEOPLE, SMART PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR COUNTRY.

THAT'S A CONSEQUENCE HOPEFULLY THAT WE WON'T SEE TO THE EXTREME.

BUT I THINK YOU HAVE GOT TO SURVEY IT AND LOOK AT, CHRISTINE, THE ENTIRE LAST 20 YEARS. ONE OF THE BIG MISTAKES THAT WE MADE WAS WE TRIED TO MOLD AN AFGHAN ARMY IN THE LIKES OF AN AMERICAN ARMY.

WELL, THAT WAS A MISTAKE.

THE AFGHAN'S CULTURE RGS EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM ARE DIFFERENT THAN US.

DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE NOT AS SMART, NONE OF THAT.

BUT THEY HAVE TO HAVE THEIR OWN WILL TO DO THE THINGS THEY WANT TO DO FOR THEIR COUNTRY, AND WE'VE GOT TO RESPECT THAT.

I DON'T THINK WE EVER DID RESPECT THAT ENOUGH.

WE TRIED TO DO SO MUCH AND WE DID SO MUCH.

WE DID SO MUCH GOOD IN 20 YEARS.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY IT IS WHERE IT IS TODAY, AND THAT'S, I SUSPECT, A LACK OF PLANNING FOR THE WORST.

IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS AND FORTUNATELY WE HAVEN'T BEEN THROUGH MANY OF THEM, BUT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH VIETNAM, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, YOU PLAN FOR THE WORST.

AND I SUPPORT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S DECISION TO LEAVE.

A LOT OF MISTAKES WERE MADE, I THINK, IN THE PLANNING FOR THAT, NOT PLANNING WELL ENOUGH.

I DON'T KNOW.

I WASN'T PART OF IT, SO I DON'T KNOW THE DETAILS.

BUT --

WELL --

IT'S COMPLICATED.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE AND DAMN SAD.

IT IS ONE THING TO SUPPORT YOUR PRESIDENT.

CLEARLY A NATION MAKES ITS OWN NATIONAL SECURITY DECISIONS.

CLEARLY A FOREVER WAR COULDN'T LAST FOREVER.

BUT AS YOU YOURSELF SAID THERE WAS NO CONTINGENCY.

THERE WAS NO PLANNING.

IT APPEARS THAT THE UNITED STATES, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO STARTED THESE NEGOTIATIONS KIND OF GAVE THE SHOP AWAY WITHOUT ANY CONDITIONS AND WITHOUT EXTRACTING ANY PROMISES FROM THE TALIBAN.

LISTEN TO THE TALIBAN SAY ONE THING AT THE TABLE WHILE WATCHING THEM STRATEGY ON THE GROUND.

DON'T YOU THINK THAT THE U.S.

SHOULD HAVE MAINTAINED AIR SUPERIORITY, I DON'T KNOW, USED THE TIME TO KEEP THE ABILITY TO USE AIR POWER, YOU KNOW, CLOSE TO AFGHANISTAN INSTEAD OF FAR AWAY IN OTHER BASES?

IT DIDN'T REALLY HAVE TO HAPPEN THIS BADLY.

WELL, YOU MENTIONED PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HOW WE STARTED THAT IN FEBRUARY OF LAST YEAR IN DOHA.

WE ELIMINATED THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.

PRESIDENT TRUMP DID NOT HAVE AT THE TABLE THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.

WE, THE UNITED STATES, CUT THE DEAL WITH THE TALIBAN.

WELL, RIGHT THERE, THAT SHOWED VERY CLEARLY THAT WE WERE GOING TO CUT THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT OUT AND WE WERE COMING OUT NO MATTER WHAT.

AND ALL THAT CAME AFTER THAT, THAT RESULTED AFTER THAT, RELEASING 5,000 TALIBAN PRISONERS AND SO ON WERE NOT IN THE INTEREST IN THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT, IN THE GOVERNMENT TRIBE TO SAY THAT.

BUT AS YOU MOVE THIS FORWARD AND TO YOUR QUESTION, I DON'T THINK ANOTHER YEAR OR ANOTHER HALF YEAR WOULD HAVE MADE A LOT OF DIFFERENCE.

I SAY THAT FOR TWO REASONS.

OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, ACTUALLY LAST TEN YEARS, BUT LET'S JUST TAKE THE LAST TWO YEARS, EVERY NEWS OUTLET IN THE WORLD HAS CHARTED THE PROGRESS AND THE CONTROL OF THE TALIBAN IN AFGHANISTAN, THAT THEY HAVE CONTROLLED 50%, 60% OF AFGHANISTAN.

THE PROGRESS THE TALIBAN WERE CONTINUING TO MAKE WAS CLEAR TO EVERYBODY.

I DON'T KNOW IF OUR INTELLIGENCE WASN'T FOCUSSING ON THAT ENOUGH OR IF OUR GOVERNMENT WASN'T.

I DON'T KNOW.

BUT THAT WAS NO SURPRISE AS TO HOW THINGS STARTED TO REALLY UNRAVEL AND UNFOLD WHEN THIS THING GOT TO THE POINT, OKAY, NOW WE ARE STARTING TO BRING OUR PEOPLE OUT.

I'M NOT SO SURE.

AND THE OTHER POINT I WOULD MAKE IS HOW FAST THIS UNRAVELLED.

I MEAN, THIS WAS SOMETHING I SUSPECT NO ONE PREDICTED.

WELL, THAT --

WELL, I MEAN, YOU --

-- INDICATES TO ME THAT THE TALIBAN WAS PRETTY STRONG IN ALL THESE CASES.

WELL, YEAH.

YOU SAY CORRECTLY EVERY NEWS ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD WAS WITNESSING THIS AND REPORTING THIS SO PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN ABOUT IT, DID KNOW ABOUT IT.

ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT EVEN BEFORE HE'S ADDRESSED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OVER THIS LATEST -- WELL, THE FALL OF AFGHANISTAN, PRESIDENT BIDEN ESSENTIALLY TOLD THE WORLD THAT THIS, WHAT HAS HAPPENED, WAS NOT INEVITABLE.

HERE IS WHAT HE SAID.

YOU HAVE THE AFGHAN TROOPS AT 300,000 WELL EQUIPPED, AS WELL EQUIPPED AS ANY ARMY IN THE WORLD AND AN AIR FORCE AGAINST SOMETHING LIKE 75,000 TALIBAN.

IT IS NOT INEVITABLE.

THERE IS GOING TO BE NO CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE YOU SEE PEOPLE BEING LIFTED OFF THE ROOF OF AN EMBASSY IN THE UNITED STATES FROM AFGHANISTAN.

IT IS NOT AT ALL COMFORTABLE.

WHOOPS.

WELL, IN FACT, IT DID HAPPEN WITH LIGHTENING SPEED.

AND NOW EVERYBODY HAS GOT EGG ON THEIR FACE AT THE VERY LEAST.

SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS BECAUSE YOU WERE DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA.

HE HAD TO DECIDE, AND HE DID, TO FOLLOW THE U.S. MILITARY ADVICE AND TO KEEP ADDING AND MAINTAINING AMERICAN MILITARY PRESENCE THERE.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, YOU DID A LITTLE BIT, BUT WHERE THOSE TRILLIONS OR BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WENT IN TERMS OF -- AND WHY -- OR DID YOU MISTAKENLY BELIEVE THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT SIDE WHEN MANY, MANY PEOPLE WERE TELLING YOU ABOUT THE CORRUPTION IN THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT SIDE, THE FACT THEY WEREN'T PAYING THEIR FRONT LINE FORCES, THAT THEY SENT THEM TO THE FRONT LINES OFTEN WITHOUT FOOD OR WATER, MUCH LESS ARMS OR AMMUNITION.

WHAT THE HECK WAS GOING ON?

WELL, IN 2014, WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID WE ARE GOING TO END AMERICA'S COMBAT ROLE IN AFGHANISTAN, THEN WE PULLED OUT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN TROOPS AND CLOSED HUNDREDS OF BASES IN AFGHANISTAN.

AND PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID AT THAT TIME, THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF US, THE UNITED STATES, COMING OUT.

AT SOME POINT.

AND WE'LL DO THAT IN A PROCEDURAL AND COORDINATED WAY WITH THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.

BUT THIS WAS 2014.

SO THAT'S -- THAT'S SEVEN YEARS AGO THAT WE KNEW THAT WE WERE COMING OUT.

AS TO THE OTHER QUESTIONS ABOUT MONEY AND SO ON, I DON'T KNOW.

I MEAN, I LEFT THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT IN 2015.

WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT I DIDN'T SAY INVOLVED.

I MEAN, I READ THINGS, BUT I WAS NOT PRIVY TO INTELLIGENCE REPORTS.

BUT MY BIGGER POINT HERE IS, AND AS I SAID IT HERE EARLIER IN PART OF THIS INTERVIEW, EVERY PRESIDENT HAS SAID WE'RE GOING TO COME OUT.

WE WERE GEARING EVERYTHING WE WERE DOING WITH THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT, WITH THE AFGHAN ARMY WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE UNITED STATES FOR THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT AND THE FORCES, AFGHAN FORCES, TO GET READY FOR THE TIME WHEN WE ARE COMING OUT.

WE OBVIOUSLY MADE MISTAKES IN THAT PROCESS.

WE OBVIOUSLY UNDERESTIMATED EVERYTHING IN THAT PROCESS.

THE PRESIDENT'S COMMENTS I DON'T KNOW WHAT LED HIM TO MAKE THOSE COMMENTS OR TO BE REASSURED ENOUGH TO MAKE THOSE COMMENTS BUT IT IS WHAT IT IS.

OKAY.

SO LET ME ASK YOU FINALLY -- WELL, IT IS WHAT IT IS IS AN UNFORTUNATE STATEMENT BECAUSE IT IS NOT JUST MISTAKES.

IT IS THE HANDOVER OF WHAT WAS A TERRORIST HAVEN BACK TO THOSE WHO KEPT IT AS A TERRORIST HAVEN.

SO WHAT MESSAGE DID THIS SEND TO THE REST OF THE WORLD ABOUT AMERICA'S COMMITMENT IN ANTITERROR OR THE SPREAD OF DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM AND HUMAN RIGHTS AND PARTICULARLY, DO YOU BELIEVE -- YOU MAY NOT BE THE CURRENT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, BUT YOU HAVE ALSO BEEN A SENATOR.

YOU ARE VERY WELL-INFORMED.

DO YOU BELIEVE THIS WILL PUT AT RISK AGAIN AFGHANISTAN AS A POTENTIAL TERRORIST SAFE HAVEN THAT COULD COME BACK TO ATTACK THE UNITED STATES IN SOME FORM OR FASHION OR ITS ALLIES AROUND THE WORLD?

WELL, IT COULD, YES, ABSOLUTELY.

THERE ARE GOING TO BE CONSEQUENCES FOR THIS NO MATTER WHAT.

THERE WILL BE POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES.

THERE WILL BE SECURITY CONSEQUENCES AND DIPLOMATIC CONSEQUENCES AND YOU JUST NOTED THAT.

HOW OTHER NATIONS RESPOND TO THIS I DON'T KNOW.

BUT I THINK OTHER NATIONS WHO HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH US IN AFGHANISTAN UNDERSTAND THE REALITIES OF WHAT WAS GOING ON BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE AND THEY SAW IT.

I HOPE IT DOESN'T COST THIS COUNTRY A LOT OF DIPLOMATIC TRUST AND CONFIDENCE.

IT MIGHT.

IT COULD.

THIS IS GOING TO BE WITH US FOR A WHILE.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET OUT OF THIS JUST AFTER THIS EPISODE.

BUT WE'RE GOING TO BE DEALING WITH THIS FOR A FEW YEARS DOWN THE ROAD.

YEAH.

AND THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY, THOUGH, THIS IS 2021.

NOT 2001.

THE THREATS, THE CAPABILITIES, THE CAPACITIES OF THE UNITED STATES, OF OUR ALLIES, ALL OF THAT HAS CHANGED.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT AFGHANISTAN COULD -- COULD GET BACK WHERE IT WAS WHEN WE FOUND IT IN 2001, A TRAINING GROUND FOR TERRORISTS.

IT COULD VERY WELL BE THAT.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

> NOW HERE IN THE U.K., THE GOVERNMENT IS ALSO SCRAMBLING TO GET ITS NATIONALS OUT OF AFGHANISTAN AND TRYING TO EVACUATE THOSE AFGHANISTANS WHO WORKED WITH BRITISH FORCES.

AMID THOSE SCENES AT THE AIRPORT, BEN WALLACE, HIMSELF A FORMER SOLDIER, HAS ADMITTED IN AN EMOTIONAL INTERVIEW THAT, QUOTE, SOME PEOPLE WILL NOT GET BACK.

WE'RE NOT DOING OTHER DIPLOMATIC FUNCTIONS.

WE ARE SIMPLY THERE TO PROCESS ALL THOSE BRITISH PASSPORT PEOPLE AND ALL THE PEOPLE WE HAVE OBLIGATION AND MEN AND WOMEN OF OUR ARMED FORCES ARE RISKING THEIR LIVES IN DOING THAT.

BUT THAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

AT THE VERY LEAST OUR OBLIGATION HAS TO BE AS MANY PEOPLE THROUGH THE PIPELINE AS POSSIBLE.

BUT I THINK I ALSO SAID IT IS A REGRET FOR ME.

SOME PEOPLE WON'T GET BACK.

SOME PEOPLE WON'T GET BACK.

AND WE WILL HAVE TO DO OUR BEST IN THIRD COUNTRIES TO PROCESS THOSE PEOPLE.

HIS VOICE CRACKING THERE WITH THE SEVERITY AND THE SERIOUSNESS WITH THE ETHICAL DILEMMA THAT THE WEST POSES NOW WITH THE AFGHANS WHO HELPED US.

CHAIR OF THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE AND SERVED AS A SOLDIER IN AFGHANISTAN.

HE'S JOINING ME FROM NORWAY RIGHT NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU SAW YOUR VERY OWN DEFENSE SECRETARY BREAK DOWN THERE, HIS VOICE CRACKING WITH THE WEIGHT OF RESPONSIBILITY THAT CLEARLY HE FEELS TOWARDS THOSE THAT PUT THEIR LIFE AT RISK IN AFGHANISTAN TO HELP YOU ALL.

TELL ME HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT AND WHETHER YOU THINK THAT YOU WILL MANAGE TO GET EVERYBODY OUT.

HE SAYS CLEARLY MANY WILL FALL BETWEEN THE CRACKS.

LOOK, BEN HAS BEEN WORKING THIS NOW FOR MANY DAYS AND W WEEKS, AND I'M SURE SADLY WHAT HE SAYS IS CORRECT.

HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT HE'S BEEN DOING AND HAS BEEN WORKING 24/7 FOR THE LAST, GOD KNOWS, MANY DAYS, MANY WEEKS TO TRY AND GET A DECENT RESOLUTION.

NOT A GREAT RESOLUTION, BUT A DECENT RESOLUTION THAT GETS AS MANY PEOPLE OUT AS POSSIBLE.

I SPENT THE LAST WEEK, MAYBE TWO WEEKS RESPONDING, TRYING TO GET INTERPRETERS I WORKED WITH, PEOPLE WHO SERVED ALONGSIDE US, THE SPECIAL FORCES WE TRAINED, ANYBODY WHO I THINK WE HAVE A DUTY TO, I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET THEM INTO THE AIRPORT, INTO THE PROCESS AND OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

BUT I HAVE TO SAY, I GOT A HEART-BREAKING VOICE MAIL YESTERDAY FROM A VERY DEAR FRIEND WHO DESCRIBED HOW HE WAS NOW WAITING IN HIS HOME AS HE KNEW THE TALIBAN WERE KNOCKING ON DOORS GOING DOWN THE ROAD LOOKING FOR HIM AND HIS COMRADES.

WELL, HE HASN'T TEXTED ANYMORE, SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENED.

OH, GOD, TOM.

THAT'S JUST TOO CHILLING TO EVEN HEAR YOU RECOUNT.

AND YOU HEARD WHAT THE TALIBAN SPOKESMAN SAID TO ME, THAT THEY WILL NOT BE CONDUCTING REVENGE RAIDS OR GOING HOUSE TO HOUSE.

YOU HAVE SEEN THE PICTURES, WHICH ARE HORRIFIC OF AFGHANS TRYING TO LITERALLY CLAMBER ABOARD A MOVING U.S. MILITARY TRANSPORT PLANE ON THE TARMAC THERE.

DO YOU BELIEVE WHAT THE TALIBAN SAY ABOUT GIVING AMNESTY AND PROTECTING ALL AFGHANS NO MATTER WHAT THEY DID IN THE LAST 20 YEARS?

I DON'T BELIEVE THEM FOR A SECOND.

I CAN TELL YOU WHY I DON'T BELIEVE THEM, BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN IN THE PHOTOS THAT HAVE BEEN SENT TO ME BY MY FRIENDS THE REALITY OF THE TALIBAN REOCCUPATION.

I HAVE SEEN THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF PEOPLE WE TRAINED, PEOPLE WE SERVED WITH, PEOPLE OF INTEGRITY WHO DID THEIR BEST FOR THE AFGHAN PEOPLE AND THEIR BODIES ARE LYING IN THE GUTTER.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE REALITY OF TALIBAN RULE.

WE SHOULDN'T HAVE ANY ILLUSION AS TO WHAT'S GOING ON.

THIS IS AN ORGANIZATION THAT IS STILL PARTNERED WITH AL-QAEDA AND ISIS, WITH ISLAMIC MOVEMENT.

THERE IS PEOPLE, WHETHER THEY BE IN BEIJING OR IN MOSCOW WHO THINK THEY HAVE MADE A DEAL THAT WILL KEEP THEM SAFE.

WELL, ALL THEY'RE DOING IS THROWING MEAT AT THE CROCODILE IN THE HOPE THEY WILL EAT THEM IN LOTS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES AND BRITAIN, NATO, BUT THE UNITED STATES WHICH LED THIS WITHDRAWAL, THIS RETREAT SHOULD HAVE DONE AS A CONTINGENCY PLAN GIVEN THAT PRESUMABLY THEY WEREN'T GOING TO STAY THERE FOREVER.

OR DO YOU THINK THERE IS A SCENARIO WHICH FOR A RELATIVELY INEXPENSIVE INVESTMENT IN PEOPLE AND STRATEGY MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO STAY AND STAVE THIS OFF.

LOOK, THIS HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS A FOREVER WAR BY SOME PEOPLE.

FOR SOME REASON, NOBODY DESCRIBES THE DEFENSE OF GERMANY UNTIL 1991 AS A FOREVER WAR OR THE U.S. MILITARY CONTRIBUTION TO SOUTH KOREA AS A FOREVER WAR OR THE BRITISH MILITARY CONTRIBUTION IN CYPRUS.

I MEAN, I CAN GO ON.

THE BASING IN THE GULF.

THE SUPPORT TO ANTI-PIRACY OPERATIONS.

THEY'RE NOT BECAUSE WE RECOGNIZE THAT THESE ARE ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS TO DEFENDING OURSELVES, BY EXTENDING THE PERIMETER OF OUR SECURITY AND MAKING SURE THAT ALLIES STAND WITH US WHEN WE ASK FOR THEM.

AND I'M AFRAID THE SHORTSIGHTEDNESS THAT WE'VE MADE HERE IS TO CONSUME THE SUM COST WITH THE FUTURE COST.

THE SUM COST IS REAL.

WE HAVE SPENT TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN AFGHANISTAN.

I CAN POINT TO THE GRAVES OF THE MEN I HAVE BURIED AND I'M SURE MANY OTHER SOLDIERS CAN DO THE SAME.

BUT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO RISE AGAIN JUST BECAUSE WE LEAVE.

THAT IS A SUM COST, I'M AFRAID.

IT IS A SUNK COST MANY OF US HAVE TO LIVE WITH EVERY DAY.

AN ENDURING COST IS DIFFERENT.

IT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE IS AFFORDABLE, THAT WE CAN COPE WITH IT.

IN AFGHANISTAN, I THINK WE COULD HAVE GOT THERE.

WE CHOSE NOT TO.

BUT THAT'S A POLITICAL CHOICE.

AND FOR 2,500 SOLDIERS, WHAT'S THAT?

THAT'S HALF THE CREW OF AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER.

WE HAVE LEFT.

AND WE'RE SEEING WHAT THAT CHOICE HAS COST.

IT IS A TRAGIC SITUATION.

AND THE WAY YOU DESCRIBE IT IS CLEAR.

I JUST WANT TO MENTION BECAUSE YOU MENTION THESE OTHER ALLIES AND DEPLOYMENTS WHICH HAVE TAKEN PLACE FOR A LONG-TERM REASON.

BUT YOUR ALLIES IN AFGHANISTAN APPEAR TO BE SOMEWHAT UNRELIABLE, RIGHT?

I MEAN, IT SEEMS THAT THEY -- THE GOVERNMENT WAS CORRUPT.

THE GOVERNMENT DID NOT REALLY PAY OR TAKE CARE OF ITS FORCES.

HOW MUCH RESPONSIBILITY DO YOUR PARTNERS IN AFGHANISTAN, NOT THE TALIBAN, BUT THE PARTNERS ON THE GOVERNMENT SIDE, HOW MUCH RESPONSIBILITIES DO YOU THINK THEY BEAR?

OF COURSE THEY BEAR A RESPONSIBILITY.

I'M NOT GOING TO DENY THAT.

BUT AFTER 40 YEARS OF WAR, IT IS HARDLY SURPRISING IT WAS A CORRUPT AND BROKEN STATE.

THAT'S NOT REALLY A SURPRISE.

IN THE SAME WAY THAT GERMANY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DESCRIBED AS A RELIABLE PARTNER.

THE POLITICAL LEADERS AND THERE WERE IMPRESSIVE LEADERS IN GERMANY IN 1950 WERE NOT ALL PEOPLE THAT, WITH HINDSIGHT, WE WOULD HAPPILY HAVE SAT DOWN WITH.

MANY OF THEM HAD PASTS THAT LEFT A LOT TO BE DESIRED.

BUT THE IDEA WE COULD HAVE PULLED OUT IN GERMANY AND EXPECTED THEM TO STAND UP TO THE SOVIET TROOPS WAS RIDICULOUS AND WE KNEW IT BECAUSE IT TAKES MORE THAN FIVE YEARS TO BUILD A STATE.

THE REALITY IS THAT WE'VE ONLY JUST STARTED EASING DOWN ON THE FIGHTING IN THE LAST THREE OR FOUR YEARS.

WE LOST A BRITISH SOLDIER TRAGICALLY KILLED IN COMBAT IN 2013 AND THE LAST U.S. SOLDIER A FEW YEARS AGO.

THIS IS A WAR THAT HAS BEEN WINDING DOWN.

WHAT WE'VE JUST DONE IS THROWN FUEL ON IT.

THANK YOU FOR PUTTING THIS INTO PERSPECTIVE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

> AND FINALLY TONIGHT THEN, LET US FLASH BACK TO ONE OF MY OWN REPORTING TRIPS TO AFGHANISTAN.

THIS WAS 2002, MONTHS AFTER THE TALIBAN WAS OVERTHROWN.

AND I WITNESSED THEN THE SPARK OF HOPE AND JUBILATION AS GIRLS WERE FINALLY GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO SCHOOL, A PRIVILEGE THAT MANY TAKE FOR GRANTED AROUND THE WORLD.

BUT I ALSO DISCOVERED THAT EVEN WITHOUT THE TALIBAN STANDING IN THEIR WAY, MANY WOULD STILL NOT RECEIVE AN EDUCATION.

EVERYONE WE TALKED TO SAYS ONLY TIME AND EDUCATION WILL BRING REAL RIGHTS FOR AFGHANISTAN'S WOMEN.

AND NOWHERE IS THAT MORE KEENLY FELT THAN AMONG GIRLS WHO ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL.

UNDER THE TALIBAN IT WAS ILLEGAL.

BUT TEACHERS LIKE THIS TAUGHT IN A FLOURISHING NETWORK OF UNDERGROUND SCHOOLS, SECRET PLACES LIKE THIS ONE IN THE COUNTRYSIDE.

SHE SET UP HER SCHOOL ABOVE YOUR HUSBAND'S OFFICE.

HE'S A DOCTOR.

HUNDREDS OF GIRLS LEARNED TO READ AND WRITE HERE.

AND WHEN THE TALIBAN CAME TO INVESTIGATE, SHE BLAMED THE NOISE ON HER HUSBAND'S PATIENTS.

WAS IT DIFFICULT?

DID YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL?

IT WAS DIFFICULT.

I HAD TO BE VERY CAREFUL.

SOMETIMES I WAS CHANGING THE TIMES OF THE LESSONS.

SOMETIMES I WAS CHANGING THE PLACE.

WHY WEREN'T YOU AFRAID?

THEY COULD HAVE DONE TERRIBLE THINGS TO YOU.

I DON'T KNOW.

I WAS NOT AFRAID AT ALL.

IF THEY WOULD HAVE CAUGHT YOU, THEY WOULD HAVE WHIPPED YOU AT LEAST?

BUT I HAD TO HELP THE PEOPLE.

WERE YOU GIRLS AFRAID WHEN THE TALIBAN WOULD COME ROUND?

YES.

WE USED TO HIDE OUR BOOKS UNDER OUR BURKAS TO AVOID BEATINGS FROM THE TALIBAN.

BUT A FEW GIRLS WERE CAUGHT AND ROUGHED UP.

ONE DAY, THE TALIBAN APPROACHED ME AS I WAS GOING TO SCHOOL.

SO I QUICKLY HID MY BOOKS UNDER A PILE OF HAY.

AND WHEN THEY LEFT, I GRABBED THE BOOKS BACK FROM THE COWS.

YOU HAVE REALLY GOT TO WANT TO GO TO SCHOOL.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT SURPRISES ME?

THAT YOU GIRLS WOULD TAKE SO MANY RISKS JUST TO LEARN SOMETHING, JUST TO READ A BOOK.

THEY LOVE TO STUDY.

THEY WANT IT ALWAYS, EDUCATION.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE WHEN YOU GRADUATE FROM THIS CLASS?

WHO WANTS TO TELL ME?

TEACHER.

DOCTOR.

YOU WANT TO BE A DOCTOR.

THEY HAVE LOTS OF WISHES.

AND LOTS OF HOPES.

AND LOTS OF HOPES, YEAH.

BUT AS WE FOUND, GIRLS WHO MAKE IT TO COLLEGE IN THE BIG CITY ARE HAVING A HARD TIME.

MOST OF THE WOMEN IN THIS ENGINEERING SCHOOL IN KABUL HAVE DROPPED OUT BECAUSE THE DORMS WERE DESTROYED DURING THE WAR AND THEY HAVE NOWHERE TO SLEEP.

AFTER THE TALIBAN FLED, MORE THAN THREE MILLION GIRLS AND BOYS RUSHED BACK TO SCHOOL.

THAT'S MORE THAN DOUBLE WHAT THE GOVERNMENT EXPECTED.

BUT THERE IS STILL MANY GIRLS WHO MAY NEVER SEE THE INSIDE OF A CLASSROOM.

THE FATHER OF THESE LITTLE GIRLS KEEPS THEM AT HOME WEAVING CARPETS.

WHY DON'T THE MEN LET THE GIRLS GO TO SCHOOL?

OUR MEN ARE STRICT, AND THEY DON'T LET THE GIRLS GO TO SCHOOL.

WE PUT THE SAME QUESTION TO MOH MOH MOHAMMED, THE MAN OF THE HOUSE.

WHY DON'T YOU LET YOUR CHILDREN GO TO SCHOOL, YOUR GIRLS GO TO SCHOOL?

THEY'RE MAKING $5 A MONTH WEAVING CARPETS AND I'M UNEMPLOYED.

IF THEY GO TO SCHOOL, WE CAN'T EVEN PAY FOR THEIR BOOKS.

LOOK, YOU HAVE GOT ALL GIRLS.

AND ONE DAY THEY WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE MORE MONEY IF THEY'RE EDUCATED.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT.

BUT POOR PEOPLE LIKE US DON'T HAVE THAT CHOICE.

IF THE GIRLS DON'T WORK, WE'LL ALL BE HUNGRY.

THE WOMEN IN THIS HOUSEHOLD WANT THEIR GIRLS TO BE EDUCATED.

BUT IN THE END, IT'S THE MAN WHO DECIDES.

HE IS THE ONE WHO SETS THE RULES?

YES.

IT'S TRUE.

THE VOICE OF AN AFGHAN MOTHER AND WIFE, AN IMPORTANT REALITY CHECK THAT 20 YEARS OF A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR INTERNATIONAL EFFORT IN ONE OF THE POOREST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD MEANS THAT MANY PARENTS WILL STILL CHOOSE TO KEEP THEIR GIRLS WORKING AND NOT LEARNING.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN ALWAYS FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.