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> CHAOS OUTSIDE OF KABUL AIRPORT AS PRESIDENT BIDEN DOUBLES DOWN ON HIS AFGHANISTAN TROOP WITHDRAWAL.
FORMER U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL ELLIOT COHEN JOINS ME TO EXAMINE HOW THE U.S. COULD HAVE GOTTEN IT SO WRONG.
> AND THE TALIBAN TOOK OVER AFGHANISTAN, BUT WHO IS REALLY IN CHARGE.
WE DIVE INTO THE COMPETING TALIBAN FACTIONS WITH AN EXPERT.
THEN -- AN EARTHQUAKE, A HURRICANE AND A PRESIDENTIAL ASSASSINATION.I TALK TO RELIEF N ABOUT HOW HAITI IS COPING WITH TRAGEDY UPON TRAGEDY.
PLUS --
OUR POLITICIANS ARE INCENTIVIZED TO BEHAVE IN ALL THE WRONG WAYS.
PLUS, JOURNALIST DAVID DALEY WARNS THE U.S. COULD BECOME LESS DEMOCRATIC.
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> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.
I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORE AMANPOUR.
AIRPORT IS GROWING MOREF KABUL DESPERATE BY THE DAY.
AFGHANS ARE SWARMING THEDS OF PERIMETER TRYING TO GET THEMSELVES ON FLIGHTS OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.
NEVER HAPPEN.MOST LIKELY WILL LUCK GETTING OUT, BUT THETTER PENTAGON TODAY SAYS IT DOESN'TKE STILL IN THE COUNTRY.
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN IS FACING A STORM OF CRITICISM AND QUESTIONS ABOUT THE UNFOLDING CRISIS, PARTICULARLY WHY THE UNITED STATES WAS SO UNPREPARED FOR THE QUICK TALIBAN TAKEOVER AND THE CHAOS THAT FOLLOWED.
LISTEN TO WHAT HE TOLD ABC NEWS.
THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY DID NOT SAY BACK IN JUNE OR JULY THAT, IN FACT, THIS WAS GOING TO ONE.APSE LIKE IT DID, NUMBER WOULD TAKE OVER, BUT NOT THISQU?
NOT THIS QUICKLY.
NOT EVEN CLOSE.
GRANTED, IT TOOK TWO DAYS TO GET CONTROL OF THE AIRPORT.
NOW.AVE CONTROL OF THE AIRPORT PANDEMONIUM OUTSIDE THE AIRPORT.
WELL, THERE IS.
BUT, LOOK, BUT NO ONE IS BEING KILLED RIGHT NOW.
GOD FORGIVE ME IF I'M WRONG, BU.
WE GOT 1,200 OUT YESTERDAY, A COUPLE THOUSAND A DAY, AND IT'S.
WE'RE GOING TO GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT.
BUT WE'VE ALL SEEN THE PICTURES.
WE'VE SEEN THE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE PACKED INTO THE C-17 AND WE'VE SEEN AFGHANS FALLING --
THAT WAS FOUR DAYS AGO, FIVE DAYS AGO.
WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THOSE PICTURES?
WHAT I THOUGHT WAS WE HAVE TO GAIN CONTROL OF THIS, WE HAVE TO MOVE THIS MORE QUICKLY.
ELLIOT COHEN SERVED AS A COUNSELOR IN THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM MARYLAND.
ELLIOT, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
SO LET'S BEGIN WITH WHAT THE PRESIDENT JUST SAID LAST MONTH, AND THAT IS THAT A WITHDRAW FROM AFGHANISTAN WOULD BE ORDERLY, DELIBERATE AND SAFE.
WHAT WE'VE SEEN OVER THESE PAST FEW DAYS IS ANYTHING BUT THAT.
THEN YOU HAVE THE PRESIDENT SAYING YESTERDAY THAT THIS CHAOS WAS INEVITABLE.
WAS IT?
WELL, I THINK A CERTAIN DEGREE OF CHAOS PROBABLY WAS INEVITABLE.
HERE. ARE TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES ONE IS THE DECISION TO GO FOR A FULL, COMPLETE WITHDRAW, THE OTHER IS THE EXECUTION OF IT.
BUT I THINK WHAT YOU SAW HAPPEN HERE WAS WISHFUL THINKING, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS THINGS YOU CAN DO IN GOVERNMENTU WANT TO BE TRUE REALLY ARE TRUE.
AND I DON'T THINK HANGING THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY OUT TO DRY GETS THE LEADERSHIP OFF THE HOOK.
THE WAY THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY WORKS, THEY GIVE YOU A RANGE OF POSSIBILITIES, AND I'M SURE THAT ONE OF THOSE POSSIBILITIES WAS CHAOS.
BUT ULTIMATELY THE PEOPLE PAID TO MAKE JUDGMENTS ABOUT WHAT IS LIKELY ARE POLITICAL, SENIOR POLITICAL AND MILITARY LEADERS, AND THAT REALLY DOES START WITH THE PRESIDENT.
AND THERE WAS JUST A TERRIBLE FAILURE.
AND ON THE ISSUE OF WHETHER THERE SHOULD HAVE REMAINED AT LEAST SOME, A FEW THOUSAND BOOTS ON THE GROUND, U.S. TROOPS ON THE GROUND THERE, THE PRESIDENT CAUSED EVEN MORE CONFUSION BY SUGGESTING THAT HIS MILITARY ADVISERS HAD NOT SUGGESTED THAT THERE SHOULD BE A FEW THOUSAND THERE HAD BEEN MANY REPORTS THAT THAT IS, IN FACT, WHAT TRANSPIRED AND THAT WAS THE CASE.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
THINGS THAT HAS JUST BEEN SO DISHEARTENING ABOUT THIS IS THE PRESIDENT GETTING ON TELEVISION SAYING THE BUCK STOPS HERE AND THEN PROCEEDING TO CAST BLAME ON EVERYBODY ELSE OTHER THAN HIMSELF.
THE FACT IS, FROM ALL THE REPORTS, HIS MILITARY ADVISERS WERE UNANIMOUS ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF KEEPING SOME KIND OF FORCE ON THE GROUND, PARTICULARLY AS YOU CONDUCT THIS EVACUATION.
ULTIMATELY THE RESPONSIBILITY FALLS ON POLITICAL LEADERS, AND I THINK HE JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN, AND I ALSO THINK THAT -- AND, YOU KNOW, YOU SAW THIS IN A WAY WITH THE TONE OF THE SPEECH, IT WAS PROBABLY PRETTY HARD FOR SENIOR ADVISERS TO LOOK HIM SQUARELY IN THE EYE AND SAY, MR.
PRESIDENT, I KNOW YOU DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE THIS, I KNOW THIS WILL DISCONFIRM OUR FUNDAMENTAL CONVICTIONS, BUT THIS IS REALLY THE KIND OF DANGER THAT YOU'RE RUNNING.
AND WHEN YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF ATTITUDE, YOU GET THINGS LIKE, REALLY, THE DISPLAY THAT WE'VE SEEN HERE TODAY.
JUST ON THAT POINT OF WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS ADVISED BY HIS MILITARY TEAM AND ADVISERS THERE TO KEEP TROOPS ON THE GROUND, GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS SAID, NO ONE TOLD YOU, YOUR MILITARY ADVISERS DID NOT TELL YOU WE SHOULD KEEP 2,500 TROOPS?
PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID, NO, NO ONE SAID THAT TO ME THAT I CAN RECALL.
AND OBVIOUSLY YOU AND I ARE BOTH TALKING ABOUT REPORTS WE HAVE SEEN THAT SUGGESTED OTHERWISE.
BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS NEXT, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF FINGER-POINTING, AS YOU JUST MENTIONED, AND SOME ARE CASTING BLAME AT NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JAKE SULLIVAN, THAT THIS IS SOMETHING HE SHOULD HAVE SEEN COMING.
AT THIS POINT, SHOULD SOMEBODY'S JOB BE ON THE LINE, OR IS IT TOO SOON TO TALK ABOUT THAT RIGHT NOW?
I THINK IT'S TOO SOON TO TALK ABOUT THAT.
THE URGENT THING IS GET AHOLD OF THOSE AMERICAN CITIZENS.
I'M AFRAID THERE'S PROBABLY LOTS OF BLAME TO GO AROUND.
YOU KNOW, WHY DIDN'T WE HAVE SOME SORT OF SENSE OF WHO THE AMERICAN CITIZENS IN KABUL ARE, AND HAVE SOME SORT OF PLAN FOR GETTING THEM TO THE AIRPORT?
WHY DID WE GIVE UP BAGRAM AIR BASE, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN A MUCH BETTER LOCATION TO DO THIS?
WHY DIDN'T WE KEEP TROOPS ON THE GROUND?
THERE ARE A WHOLE BUNCH OF QUESTIONS AND THIS IS A SYSTEMIC FAILURE OF THE ENTIRE TEAM AND IT'S NOT JUST A POLICY FAILURE.
THIS IS A MORAL FAILURE HERE.
WE'VE ACTED IN WAYS TOWARDS OUR AFGHAN ALLIES, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE LIKE THE INTERPRETERS AND SO ON, IN WAYS THAT YOU CAN ONLY DESCRIBE AS PERFIDIOUS.
WE'RE BETRAYING PEOPLE WHO PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE FOR US AND WERE SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH US IN VERY DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES AND THAT'S WHY SO MANY SOLDIERS AND MARINES THAT I KNOW, VETERANS OF THIS WAR, ARE JUST PROFOUNDLY ANGUISHED BY WHAT THEY'RE SEEING.
WE DON'T LEAVE PEOPLE BEHIND.
AND THE PRESIDENT'S GRUDGING MESSAGE SEEMS TO BE WE WON'T LEAVE AMERICANS BEHIND, THE AFGHANS, THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM.
AND THAT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE.
THE PENTAGON OFFICIALS TODAY DIDN'T SEEM TO HAVE AN EXACT NUMBER AS TO HOW MANY AMERICANS ARE STILL IN AFGHANISTAN, NOT TO MENTION OUR AFGHAN ALLIES THERE WHO HAD BEEN HELPING US OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES.
IN TERMS OF THE INTELLIGENCE FAILURE, WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS AN INTELLIGENCE FAILURE, THAT'S ALSO ANOTHER DEBATE AND ONE OF YOUR FORMER COLLEAGUES, FORMER ACTING CIA DIRECTOR MIKE MORRELL SAID WHAT IS HAPPENING IN AFGHANISTAN IS NOT THE RESULT OF AN INTELLIGENCE FAILURE, IT IS THE RESULT OF NUMEROUS POLICY FAILURES BY MULTIPLE ADMINISTRATIONS, OF ALL THE PLAYERS OVER THE YEARS, THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY BY FAR HAS SEEN THE SITUATION IN AFGHANISTAN MORE ACCURATELY.
HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT WITH NOT ONLY WHAT WE'VE HEARD FROM THE PRESIDENT, BUT ALSO WHAT WE HEARD FROM THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF, MARK MILLEY, WHERE HE SAID HE NEVER EXPECTED FOR THE COUNTRY TO FALL WITHIN 11 DAYS?L SAY, I'M WAITING FOR SOMEBODY TO ACTUALLY TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.
I MEAN, THE LAPSE IN ACCOUNTABILITY, WHICH IS ESSENTIAL FOR GOVERNMENT, ANY ORGANIZATION, IS REALLY SHOCKING HERE.
THE SECOND THING, LET'S BE REALISTIC ABOUT WHAT TO EXPECT FROM INTELLIGENCE.
INTELLIGENCE DOES NOT FORECAST THE FUTURE.
WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT THE INTELLIGENCE PEOPLE TO KNOW IS THE SITUATION AS IT'S ACTUALLY UNFOLDING.
THE THIRD THING I WOULD SAY IS THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IS A BIG THING.
MY EXPERIENCE IN GOVERNMENT WAS THE CIA ANALYSTS WERE GENERALLY MORE ACCURATE THAN SOME OF THE MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ANALYSTS WHO WERE OUT IN THE FIELD, ODDLR THAT.
REASONABLY COOL AND DETACHEDOOKY WAY, WHICH WE CAN'T RIGHT NOW, THERE WILL BE SOME BLAME THERE.
BUT I WOULD AGREE ON THE WHOLE WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS A POLICY FAILURE AND PART OF THAT POLICY FAILURE IS REALLY TREMENDOUSLY POOR JUDGMENT BY THE LEADERSHIP TEAM IN THIS CASE.
AND THIS POLICY FAILURE GOES BACK OVER FOUR ADMINISTRATIONS, INCLUDING ONE THAT YOU SERVED WITH, THAT INITIALLY LAUNCHED THE INVASION INTO AFGHANISTAN, AND THAT IS PRESIDENT GEORGE W.
BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION.
LOOKING BACK, AND I UNDERSTAND SITTING HERE IN 2021 THAT HINDSIGHT IS 20/20 AND I DON'T WANT TO BE A MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACK, BUT IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN LOOK BACK IN TERMS OF THE WORK YOU DID, THE ANALYSIS, THE ADVICE THAT YOU GAVE DURING YOUR TIME IN OFFICE THAT YOU THINK, PERHAPS, WASN'T RIGHT, RIGHT NOW?
SO I'VE ACTUALLY WRITTEN AN ARTICLE ON THIS.
IT'S POSTED ON 'THE ATLANTIC' WEBSITE WHERE I OCCASIONALLY WRITE PIECES WHICH REFLECTS ON MY OWN EXPERIENCE.
I WAS IN THE LAST TWO YEARS OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION AND I HAD A VERY UNCOMFORTABLE FEELING ABOUT WHERE WE WERE.
BUT I WILL SAY THIS, FIRST, THERE'S PLENTY OF MISTAKES TO GO AROUND AND I'M SURE THAT I'VE GOT MY SHARE OF THEM.
BUT WHAT I WILL SAY IS, AT LEAST GEORGE W. BUSH, WITH AS MANY FAULTS, WAS COMMITTED TO SUCCESS.
TO MY MIND, THE ORIGINS OF THE CURRENT FAILURE WE'RE IN, AS SOON AS IT BECAME CLEAR, AND THIS IS REALLY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA, WHO HAS ESCAPED SOME CRITICISM, I THINK, IN ALL OF THIS, THAT WE WANTED OUT OF THERE AND WE WERE NOT GOING TO SEE IT THROUGH TO THE END, I THINK THAT SET THE CONDITIONS FOR THE AFGHANS WHEN THE MOMENT CAME TO TURN VERY, VERY QUICKLY AND CUT THEIR DEALS WITH THE TALIBAN, BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THEY'RE GOING TO SURVIVE.
AND TO THIS EXTENT I THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS A FAIR POINT.
I MEAN, THEY ARE REAPING THE RESULTS OF THINGS THAT WERE SOWN, I WOULD ARGUE, PARTICULARLY IN THE PREVIOUS TWO ADMINISTRATIONS.
I WOULD FAULT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION FOR UNDER-RESOURCING THE WAR AT THE VERY BEGINNING, AND I WOULD FAULT THEM FOR HOW WE WENT ABOUT THE TRAINING MISSION.
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS LIKE THAT, AND I THINK MOST OF MY COLLEAGUES IN THE BUSH ADMISSION WOULD AGREE TO THAT.
BUT THE FUNDAMENTAL REASONS WHY AFGHANS DECIDED TO TURN TO THE TALIBAN IS NOT BECAUSE THEY LIKE THEM.
THEY'RE AFRAID OF THEM.
THAT'S WHY THEY TURNED TO THEM.
AND WHEN THEY ARE CONVINCED THAT THEIR MOST IMPORTANT ALLY IS GOING TO TURN THEIR BACK ON THEM, THEY'LL DO WHAT EXPERIENCE HAS TAUGHT THEM TO DO, WHICH IS CUT DEALS.
WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND RIGHTLY SO, TALKING ABOUT WHAT HIS POLICIES, AND EVEN SOME OF HIS STATEMENTS AND OFF-THE-CUFF STATEMENTS AND TWEETS MEANT FOR THE ROLE THE U.S. PLAYED INTERNATIONALLY AND THE VISION THAT IT PROJECTED AROUND THE WORLD.
I GUESS THE SAME COULD BE ASKED NOW ABOUT WHAT DAMAGE, IF ANY, AND HOW LONG LASTING IT WOULD BE ASSESSING WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE.
HE HAS SAID AMERICA IS BACK.
YOU JUST CAME BACK FROM A WHIRLWIND TRIP IN EUROPE, MEETING OUR TOP ALLIES, WHO HE SAID DEFENDED THIS DECISION.
I DON'T THINK MANY PEOPLE ARE DEFENDING THE WAY THIS DECISION WAS EXECUTED.
THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT THINGS AT WORK HERE.
ONE IS THIS IMMEDIATE DECISION AND THIS HAS CLEARLY DAMAGED BIDEN'S CREDIBILITY WITH OUR ALLIES.
THERE HAVE BEEN SOME SEARING SPEECHES, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE BRITISH PARLIAMENT BY A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT WHO, HIMSELF, IS A VETERAN OF THE AFGHAN WAR AND I WOULD COMMEND PEOPLE LOOKING AT THAT.
IT'S BRUTAL TO WATCH IF YOU'RE AN AMERICAN, BUT UNFORTUNATELY IT'S ENTIRELY FAIR.
WE BLINDSIDED OUR ALLIES.
LET'S REMEMBER OUR ALLIES HAD MORE TROOPS THERE IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS THAN WE HAVE, AND WE MADE THESE DECISIONS REALLY WITHOUT MUCH IN THE WAY OF CONSULTATION OR DELIBERATION.
SO THERE'S A PARTICULAR DAMAGE THAT'S BEEN DONE THERE.
BUT IT'S A CUMULATIVE DAMAGE, I THINK, THAT HAS BEEN DONE OVER A NUMBER OF ADMINISTRATIONS, AND THAT WOULD INCLUDE EVEN THE GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION, WHICH HAS UNDERMINED THE CONFIDENCE OF OUR ALLIES IN OUR GOOD JUDGMENT, IN OUR STEADINESS, IN OUR COMMITMENT TO THE THINGS THAT WE SAY WE STAND FOR.
AND THAT SORT OF DAMAGE IS LONG TERM AND IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO RECOVER FROM.
YOU KNOW, WE'RE THE UNITED STATES, WE CAN RECOVER FROM JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING.
BUT LOSING THE TRUST OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU REALLY NEED, THAT MATTERS.
IN THE SHORT RUN WILL THEY, YOU KNOW, SIGN UP WITH THE CHINESE?
I DON'T THINK SO.
YEAH.
BUT WILL THIS BE SOMETHING IN THE BACK OF THEIR MINDS?
I BELIEVE SO.
FINAL QUESTION, AS WE ARE JUST WEEKS AWAY FROM THE 20th ANNIVERSARY OF THE 9/11 ATTACKS, WHICH LED TO THE OBVIOUS INVASION OF AFGHANISTAN, AND I SHOULD NOTE THE ONLY TIME THAT ARTICLE 5 UNDER NATO WAS INVOKED, ARE AMERICANS SAFER TODAY, GIVEN WHAT'S TRANSPIRING RIGHT NOW AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING UNFOLDING IN AFGHANISTAN, THAN THEY WERE TWO MONTHS AGO?
I WOULD SAY LESS SAFE.
WE'RE MUCH SAFER THAN WE WERE ON 9/11 BECAUSE ALL KINDS OF THINGS HAVE HAPPENED SINCE THEN, FIRST ALL KINDS OF DOMESTIC SECURITY MEASURES, BUT ALSO A VERY EFFECTIVE, REALLY GLOBAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST TERRORIST GROUPS WHICH HAS BEEN CONDUCTED UNDER ALL FOUR ADMINISTRATIONS.
BUT, YEAH, I WOULD SAY WE'RE LESS SAFE.
BRETT STEVENS IN 'THE NEW YORK TIMES' POINTED OUT, IF YOU WERE AN ASPIRING YOUNG GEE HAD, WHERE WOULD YOU WANT TO GO?
YOU WOULD WANT TO GO TO AFGHANISTAN.
AND I FIND IT DIFFICULT THAT WE'LL BE ABLE TO CONDUCT ANTI-TERRORISM FROM OTHER COUNTRIES, AND WE KNOW THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IS SAYING IT WILL JUST BE A YEAR OR TWO BEFORE YOU SEE SOME OF THESE NETWORKS REBUILT.
BUT THE LARGER POINT IS THIS IS A TREMENDOUS SHOT IN THE ARM TO THOSE JIHADI MOVEMENTS.
THEY'VE WON.
AND THEY WILL RUN WITH THAT.
AND WE'RE GOING TO LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES.
THEY'VE RUN FASTER THAN MANY HAD ANTICIPATED, SOME OF OUR SMARTEST MINDS AS WELL.
ELLIOT COHEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
WE APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHT.
> A FEW OUTSIDE OBSERVERS HAVE BEEN FACE TO FACE WITH THE TALIBAN, BUT OUR CLARISSA WARD HAS BEEN UP CLOSE WITH THE GROUP AS SHE REPORTS LIVE IN KABUL.
SPOKE WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE WHO CLAIMED TO HAVE WORKED FOR THE U.S. AND ARE NOW TRYING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
THESE TALIBAN FIGHTERS ARE A LITTLE UPSET WITH US.
LET'S KEEP GOING.
Reporter: WE DECIDE TO LEAVE AND HEAD FOR OUR CAR.
THE FIGHTER TAKES THE SAFETY OFF HIS AK-47 AND PUSHES THROUGH THE CROWD.
STAY BEHIND HIM, STAY BEHIND HIM.
YOU CAN SEE SOME OF THE TALIBAN FIGHTERS ARE JUST HOPPED UP ON ADRENALINE, OR I DON'T KNOW WHAT.
IT'S A VERY DICEY SITUATION.
Reporter: SUDDENLY, TWO OTHER TALIBAN CHARGE TOWARDS US.
YOU CAN SEE THEIR RIFLE BUTT, RAISED TO STRIKE PRODUCER BRENT SWALES.
WHEN THE FIGHTERS ARE TOLD WE HAVE PERMISSION TO REPORT, THEY LOWER THEIR WEAPONS AND LET US PASS.
THOSE ARE FRIGHTENING IMAGES TO SEE, BUT THEY ARE SO IMPORTANT AND WE ARE SO THANKFUL FOR OUR COLLEAGUES THERE REPORTING ON THE GROUND.
CLARISSA AND HER TEAM.
BUT WITH AFGHANISTAN NOW FIRMLY IN THE HANDS OF THE TALIBAN, THE QUESTION OF HOW THEY WILL GOVERN AND WHO WILL BE IN CHARGE IS NOT A SIMPLE ONE.
HERE TO HELP US SORT THROUGH THE GROUP'S COMPETING FACTIONS IS SOMEONE WHO HAS, IN THE PAST, PERSONAL EXPERIENCE NEGOTIATING WITH THE ISLAMIST GROUP, A FORMER EU ENVOY TO AFGHANISTAN, AND HE JOINS ME FROM BIRMINGHAM, ENGLAND.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THIS HAS BEEN A QUESTION THAT OUR TEAM HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR DAYS NOW, JUST WHO IS THE TALIBAN RIGHT NOW, WHO ARE THE PEOPLE LEADING THE COUNTRY, AND WHAT, IF ANY, CHANGE CAN WE EXPECT TO SEE FROM 20 YEARS AGO?
THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE TALIBAN TODAY ARE, WITH ONLY A FEW CHANGES, THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WERE RUNNING THE TALIBAN 20 YEARS AGO.
IF WE WANT TO GET A CLUE AS TO WHAT TALIBAN RULE WILL LOOK LIKE, THE BEST THING WE CAN DO IS LOOK BACK TO THE PERIOD OF 1996 TO 2001 WHEN THEY WERE IN CHARGE, BECAUSE THE SURVIVORS OF THAT GENERATION OF LEADERS ARE THE ONES STILL RUNNING THE MOVEMENT WHO HAVE MOVED INTO KABUL OVER THE PAST WEEK AND ARE ALREADY STARTING TO EXERCISE POWER, ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE AVOIDED DECLARING A GOVERNMENT.
NOW, WHAT HAS CHANGED ALONG THE WAY IS NOT THAT SOMEHOW THE TALIBAN HAVE BECOME MODERATE, IT'S A SLIGHTLY MORE COMPLEX ORGANIZATION.
WHEN THEY TOOK OVER KABUL IN 1996, THE MOVEMENT WAS BARELY TWO YEARS OLD AND HAD A HISTORY OF A FEW YEARS IN THE SOVIET JIHAD, BUT BASICALLY IT WAS A GROUP OF YOUNG MEN.
NOW IT'S A MULTI-GENERATIONAL MOVEMENT, SO WE HAVE THE VETERANS OF THE 1994-96 CONFLICT, THAT ERA, BUT THEY ARE JOINED BY SOME OF THEIR SONS, SO THE ORIGINAL LEADER, HIS SON WAS EXPECTED IN KABUL TODAY AND IS ONE OF THE DEPUTIES OF THE MOVEMENT AND A KEY FIGURE IN THEIR NEW ADMINISTRATION.
THERE ARE OTHER SONS AS WELL.
BUT THERE'S ALSO A THIRD GENERATION OF TALIBAN, THE 18-YEAR-OLDS, THE 19-YEAR-OLDS, THE 20-YEAR-OLDS, WHO WEREN'T ALIVE IN THE '90s, BUT THEY'RE THE ONES WITH THE GUNS IN THEIR HANDS, WITH THE VEHICLES IN THEIR CONTROL, THE ONES WHO ARE HANDING OUT THE KIND OF BEATING WE HEARD DESCRIBED ON THE STREET THERE.
AND THEY'RE THE PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT THEY ACTUALLY RUN THE COUNTRY NOW.
THEY'RE THE ONES THAT THE AFGHAN POPULATION WILL COME FACE TO FACE WITH.
BUT IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT A TALIBAN GOVERNMENT LOOKS LIKE, LOOK BACK AT WHAT 1996 TO 2001 WAS LIKE.
THAT SOUNDS SO OMINOUS AND IT MAKES ME WONDER WHETHER PRESIDENT BIDEN IS JUST ENGAGED IN WISHFUL THINKING WHEN HE SUGGESTS, AS HE DID YESTERDAY IN THE INTERVIEW WITH ABC NEWS, THAT THE TALIBAN WILL NOT BE REALIGNING ITSELF WITH AL QAEDA AND TERRORISTS.
DO YOU THINK OTHERWISE?
I THINK THAT WISHFUL THINKING CHARACTERIZES THE U.S. POLICY OVER THE PAST THREE YEARS.
THIS SPANS BOTH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.
THE RUN-UP TO THIS DISASTROUS TAKEOVER OF THE PAST WEEK WAS A FAILED PEACE PROCESS, WHICH WAS INITIATED UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND CONTINUED UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN.
IT WAS BASED ON THE NOTION THAT THE TALIBAN WERE READY TO DO A DEAL, THAT THEY HAD ACCEPTED THE LOGIC THAT YOU SHOULDN'T TRY TO FORCE YOUR WILL UPON THE AFGHAN PEOPLE, THAT ANY SETTLEMENT OF THE AFGHAN CONFLICT MUST INVOLVE A POLITICAL SETTLEMENT WITH ALL ETHNICITIES, ALL MAJOR GROUPS, ALL VERY NICE IDEAS.
NOW, MANY OF US ANALYSTS, AND I'M SURE IN THE U.S. ANALYST COMMUNITY IT WAS THE SAME, WE WARNED THEM.
THE UNITED STATES IS LEAVING AFGHANISTAN.
THE UNITED STATES WOULD LEAVE AND THE TALIBAN WOULD IMMEDIATELY TAKE OVER AND THEY'VE PULLED IT OFF.
SO WISHFUL THINKING, YOU COULD SAY, AS FAR AS WESTERN LEADERS, BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE WITHIN AFGHANISTAN ITSELF?
WE INTERVIEWED MANY TOP LEADERS, FORMER LEADERS, INCLUDING ABDULLAH ABDULLAH, WHO HAD SAID THAT AFGHANISTAN IS A DIFFERENT PLACE NOW AND THE TALIBAN CANNOT GO BACK TO THE DAYS OF 20 YEARS AGO AND THE PAST, THAT THERE'S BEEN PROGRESS MADE IN THE COUNTRY.
SPECIFICALLY FREEDOMS FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS.
WAS THAT ALSO NOT BASED ON REALITY THEN?
I THINK THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS TO THIS.
ANY TIME I'VE HAD CONTACT WITH THE TALIBAN LEADERSHIP OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, AS AN ANALYST, I HAVE ADVISED THEM THAT AFGHANISTAN IS A CHANGED PLACE, AND EVEN IF YOU ARE ABLE TO SECURE MILITARY VICTORY, YOU SHOULD NOT PURSUE IT.
BECAUSE IF YOU CAPTURE AFGHANISTAN, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MEET THE EXPECTATIONS OF THE POPULATION, YOU WILL CREATE A FURTHER MESS AND YOU WILL DELEGITIMIZE YOURSELVES.
IT IS THE PRUDENT APPROACH FOR THE TALIBAN OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, WOULD INDEED HAVE BEEN TO ENDORSE SOME KIND OF POWER SHARING DEAL, WHICH WAS AVAILABLE.
THEY CHOSE NOT TO DO THAT.
SO IN A SENSE IT'S NOT THAT -- WHAT DR. ABDULLAH WAS SAYING WAS NOT JUST WISHFUL THINKING, IT WAS STATING SOMETHING, WHICH I THINK IS STILL TRUE AND THE TALIBAN REALIZE THEY'VE JUST TAKEN OVER AN ECONOMIC CRISIS WITH 30 MILLION PEOPLE WANTING TO BE FED AND THE TALIBAN MOVEMENT IS NOT IN A POSITION TO FEED A SINGLE ONE OF THEM.
ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE TO APPRECIATE THAT THE UNITED STATES HEADED UP THIS PEACE PROCESS OVER THE PAST THREE YEARS, ON REPEATED OCCASIONS DR. ABDULLAH AND OTHER AFGHAN LEADERS RECEIVED REASSURANCES FROM THE U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY ACTING ON BEHALF OF THE U.S.
GOVERNMENT, SAYING THAT THE U.S.
WAS COMMITTED TO THE PEACE DEAL, THAT THE U.S. WAS BRINGING THE TALIBAN INTO THE NEGOTIATIONS, THAT IF THE KABUL SIDE SHOWED FLEXIBILITY, THAT THE TALIBAN WOULD RECIPROCATE THAT AND THE UNITED STATES WILL PULL MILITARILY OUT OF AFGHANISTAN AND LEAVE A POWER SHARING GOVERNMENT.
FIGURES LIKE DR. ABDULLAH BELIEVED THE ASSURANCES THEY RECEIVED AND THOSE WERE BASED ON A WISHFUL THINKING OF TALIBAN INTERPRETATIONS.
THE TALIBAN LEADERSHIP WANTED TO PULL OFF EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE OVER THE PAST WEEK AND THE FAILURE OF SOME OF THE AFGHAN LEADERS IS THEY BELIEVED WHATTHR U.S. COUNTERPARTS.
OR LEADERS LIKE ASHRAF GHANI WHO TOOK OFF HOURS AFTER THE TALIBAN ENTERED KABUL TO OBVIOUSLY PRESIDENT BIDEN'S DISMAY AS HE SAID LAST NIGHT IN THAT INTERVIEW ONCE AGAIN.
SO YOU MENTIONED THE FACT THAT THEY DON'T HAVE ANY ABILITY TO GET MONEY AT THIS POINT, THAT THEY HAVE BEEN FROZEN OUT.
ACCOUNTS HAVE BEEN FROZEN.
THE IMF SAID THEY WILL NOT BE RECEIVING MONEY.
MAYBE $18 BILLION RIGHT NOW THAT THEY DON'T HAVE.
WHERE WILL THAT MONEY COME FROM?
WHAT WILL HAPPEN?
WILL THIS BE ANOTHER FAILED STATE?
AS OF TODAY I THINK WE SHOULD CONSIDER IT A FAILED STATE.
THE TALIBAN VOLUNTARILY TOOK THIS CHALLENGE UPON THEMSELVES AND I'VE BEEN ASKED MULTIPLE TIMES OVER THE PAST YEAR OR TWO, HAVE THE TALIBAN THOUGHT THIS THROUGH?
DON'T THEY REALIZE THAT IF THEY GRAB KABUL AND THE COUNTRY WITHOUT ANY INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT, WITHOUT ANY DEAL, IT'S GOING TO BE A DISASTER FOR THEM?
WHAT I SAID IN THE RUN-UP TO THIS WAS THAT THE TALIBAN BELIEVE THAT THEY'VE ESTABLISHED CONTACT WITH MANY OF THE NEIGHBORS, THEY TOLD THEIR SUPPORTERS WE'VE HAD GUARANTEES OF SUPPORT.
THEY WERE PROBABLY BUOYED BY THE CONFIDENCE THAT CAME FROM HAVING SUCCESSFULLY FINANCED THE INSURGENCY.
AS THEY HAVE HUNGRY MOBS ASKING, HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO FEED OURSELVES WITH INCOME TURNED OFF, WITH MANY OF THE PRICES HAVING GONE UP BECAUSE TRADE HAS BEEN DISRUPTED, WHAT DO THE TALIBAN DO?
THE ANSWER OF THE TALIBAN WILL PROBABLY BE TO CONTINUE WITH THEIR SMOOTH PRESS CONFERENCES SAYING WE'RE A VERY MODERN ORGANIZATION AND WE REALLY OUGHT TO BE RECOGNIZED AND WE OUGHT TO RECEIVE INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE, AND MEANWHILE THEY'LL TURN ON THEIR OWN POPULATION BASICALLY WITH THE WHIP WE'VE SEEN IN ACTION OVER RECENT DAYS TO TRY AND SUPPRESS RUTHLESSLY ANY EXPRESSION OF DISSENT.
MICHAEL, IF THERE'S ANY DOUBT AS TO WHY WE'RE SEEING SO MANY THOUSANDS OF AFGHANS DESPERATELY SCRAMBLING TO THE AIRPORT, ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS LISTEN TO WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SAYING OVER THE LAST FEW MINUTES.
IT IS INDEED FRIGHTENING, THE FUTURE OF THAT COUNTRY.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU.
> AS COVERAGE OF THE AFGHANISTAN COLLAPSE CONTINUES TO DOMINATE HEADLINES, WE CAN'T FORGET ABOUT HAITI.
LAST WEEKEND'S EARTHQUAKE HAS KILLED MORE THAN 2,000 PEOPLE AND HAS LEFT THE COUNTRY ON ITS KNEES ACCORDING TO PRIME MINISTER HENRY.
THE COUNTRY WAS ALREADY REELING FROM EXTREME POVERTY, COVID-19 AND THE ASSASSINATION OF ITS PRESIDENT.
MEANWHILE, ASSISTANCE EFFORTS ARE STYMIED IN THE AFTERMATH OF TROPICAL STORM GRACE.
WE HAVE THE COMMUNITY ORGANIZED RELIEF EFFORT, A NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION FOUNDED BY ACTOR SEAN PENN IN RESPONSE TO THE 2010 EARTHQUAKE.
SHE JOINS ME FROM PORT-AU-PRINCE.
MARGARITE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
WHAT ARE YOU SEEING ON THE GROUND THERE, ONCE AGAIN, A COUNTRY THAT CONTINUES TO BE PLAGUED BY SO MUCH HEARTACHE?
WELL, THE RESCUE RELIEF OPERATION IS STILL ONGOING.
AS YOU JUST MENTIONED, THE DEATH TOLL IS SURGING RAPIDLY.
ON THE GROUND, WE ARE STILL TRYING TO REMOVE RUBBLE, FREEING THE STREETS SO THAT THE AID CAN GET THROUGH.
WE ARE SEEING A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN NEED FOR EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE, SO WE ARE SUPPORTING HOSPITALS TO DO THAT.
BUT LAST REPORT I RECEIVED, WE ARE TALKING 40% OF THE POPULATION IN THE THREE DEPARTMENTS THAT WERE AFFECTED ARE DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY THE EARTHQUAKE.
SO IT'S ABOUT 500,000 PEOPLE.
OF COURSE, SOME OF THEM, THEIR HOMES ARE COMPLETELY DAMAGED, THEY'RE OUT ON THE STREETS.
SOME ARE PARTLY DAMAGED.
BUT AS THE ASSESSMENT IS ONGOING, WE EXPECT THIS TO BE A VERY SERIOUS IMPACT ON THE COMMUNITY, GIVEN THE CONTEXTUAL CHALLENGES THAT THE COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN FACING ALREADY.
THAT'S WHAT I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU.
HOW DIFFICULT IS IT FOR YOU TO GET NEEDS AND RESOURCES TO THOSE WHO ARE MOST DESPERATE FOR IT, GIVEN THESE IMAGES THAT WE'VE SEEN, RUBBLE?
WHAT IS TRANSPORTATION LIKE ON THE STREETS THERE?
WELL, IT'S QUITE DIFFICULT TO ACCESS, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE WE ARE, WE'RE IN THE MOST AFFECTED AREA, WHICH IS IN THE SOUTH, WHERE WE HAVE 15,000 PLUS HOUSES THAT HAVE BEEN DAMAGED, AND THEN WE ARE TRYING TO GET TO JEREMY.
THE MAIN ROAD LEADING THERE WAS SHUT DOWN BY RUBBLE.
WE REMOVED THE RUBBLE ON DAY SECOND, AND WE REALIZED YESTERDAY IT WAS BLOCKED AGAIN AFTER THE RAIN.
WE'RE ON THE ROAD AGAIN TRYING TO REOPEN THE ROAD SO THE AID CAN GET THROUGH.
SO YOU REALLY GO INTO THE CYCLE OF CLEANING AND HAVING TO REMOVE RUBBLE AGAIN BECAUSE OF THE RAIN.
AND AS WE MENTIONED, THIS IS ALL HAPPENING DURING POLITICAL TURMOIL THERE.
JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO WE WERE COVERING A PRESIDENTIAL ASSASSINATION.
THERE IS NO COHESIVE GOVERNMENT IN PLACE RIGHT NOW.
SO WHO ARE YOU WORKING WITH THERE TO MAKE SURE THAT AID IS DISTRIBUTED TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS EFFICIENTLY AND EFFECTIVELY AS POSSIBLE?
WELL, WE'RE WORKING WITH TWO MAIN NATIONAL OFFICIALS, WHICH IS THERE IS THE CIVIL PROTECTION DEPARTMENT THAT WE'VE WORKED WITH MANY YEARS, IN 2010 AFTER THE EARTHQUAKE, THEY ARE THE LEAD RESPONSE, SO WE'RE WORKING WITH THEM AT THE CENTRAL AND LOCAL LEVEL, DOING ASSESSMENTS TOGETHER TO IDENTIFY WHERE THE PEOPLE ARE, HOW TO GET THE AID TO THEM.
WE ARE ALSO WORKING WITH THE MINISTRY OF PUBLIC WORKS, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR RUBBLE MOVEMENT.
AND ALSO THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH.
SO IN BETWEEN THOSE THREE OFFICIALS, WE ARE ABLE TO REACH THE PEOPLE AFFECTED AND WE NEED TO HELP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE VERY FAST, WHICH IS WHY WE'RE DOING DIFFERENT THINGS WITH DIFFERENT NATIONAL OFFICIALS, MEANING PUBLIC MOBILE CLINICS, RUBBLE REMOVAL, SEARCH, RESCUE, AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
OBVIOUSLY THE COUNTRY HAS A LONG HISTORY OF CRISES AND NATURAL DISASTERS, AND I'M CURIOUS HOW THIS ONE COMPARES TO PREVIOUS NATURAL DISASTERS THAT YOUR ORGANIZATION AND YOU, YOURSELF, HAVE WORKED IN, GIVEN THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A FUNCTIONING, A REAL FUNCTIONING PARLIAMENT RIGHT NOW OR GOVERNMENT TO ASSIST.
WELL, IT'S DIFFERENT IN THE SENSE THAT THERE ARE MORE CONTEXTUAL CHALLENGES, SUCH AS THE ONES THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED, THAT YOU HAVE TO WORK THROUGH IN ORDER TO GET THE AID TO THE PEOPLE.
WE ARE AN ORGANIZATION WITH LOCAL HAITIAN LEADERSHIP, SO THIS PUTS US IN A POSITION TO RESPOND MOST EFFECTIVELY BY WORKING WITH COMMUNITIES WHO KNOW US, BECAUSE WE WERE ON THE GROUND IN 2010 AND THROUGHOUT TO SUPPORT COMMUNITIES.
SO BASICALLY KNOWING WHO THE KEY PLAYERS ARE WITHIN GOVERNMENT, THE TECHNICAL PLAYERS, HAS ENABLED US TO BE ABLE TO RESPOND A LOT BETTER THAN IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHO TO TALK TO, HOW TO GET TO THE COMMUNITY LEADERS.
YES, THERE IS NO PARLIAMENT, BUT, AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, THERE IS THE CIVIL PROTECTION BODY THAT IS SORT OF LIKE APOLITICAL THAT IS WORKING WITH NGOs ON THE GROUND TO COORDINATE THE RELIEF.
AND SO THEY HAVE BEEN OUR PARTNERS THROUGHOUT, SINCE 2010, AND THEY ARE THE ONES BASICALLY THAT WE WORK WITH TO GET TO THE
I BELIEVE HAITI IS THE LAST WESTERN COUNTRY TO BEGIN GETTING VACCINATED AND ONLY 21,000 OF ITS 11 MILLION POPULATION HAS BEEN VACCINATED.
HAS THAT IMPACTED YOUR WORK AT ALL?
ABSOLUTELY.
WE WERE ALL FOCUSED ON COVID VACCINES BEFORE THE EARTHQUAKE.
WE WERE WORKING WITH THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH.
WE'VE OPENED ABOUT 32 SITES, VACCINE SITES, ALONGSIDE THE MINISTRY.
THAT WAS GOING VERY WELL.
THERE IS VERY HIGH VACCINE HESITANCY IN HAITI, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, SO HAITI RECEIVED 5,00.
WE WERE WORKING ON THAT AND ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION THAT WAS TARGETED HAS BEEN VACCINATED.
AND THEN THE EARTHQUAKE CAME.
SO THAT WAS IMPACTED THAT WORK SIGNIFICANTLY, BUT WE ARE WORKING WITH THE MINISTRY TO SEE HOW WE CAN CONTINUE THE VACCINES.
BUT, AGAIN, THE FOCUS HAS COMPLETELY SHIFTED TO THE EARTHQUAKE.
SO WE ARE ALSO WORKING WITH THEM TO SEE HOW WE CAN INTEGRATE THE VACCINE DESENSITIZATION IN THE RELIEF IN THE SOUTH.
THANK GOODNESS FOR THE WORK THAT YOU AND OTHER NGOs ARE DOING ON THE GROUND.
ONE CAN'T HELP BUT THINK HOW THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND THERE, HAITIANS, WHO ARE ONCE AGAIN HAVING TO PICK UP THE RUBBLE AND THE PIECES FROM YET ANOTHER CRISIS, ARE FEELING ABOUT THIS, AND IN PARTICULAR HOW THEY'RE FEELING, ASIDE FROM YOU, ABOUT BASICALLY BEING ABANDONED BY A NONFUNCTIONING GOVERNMENT.
ONE OF OUR REPORTERS, MATT RIVERS, SPOKE WITH A LOCAL THERE, AND HERE'S WHAT HE RELAYED TO HIM.
DO YOU THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN COME HERE AND HELP YOU?
I DON'T THINK SO.
I DON'T THINK SO.
I DON'T THINK SO.
SO YOU'RE NOT WAITING FOR THEM?
NO.
AND ARE YOU FRUSTRATED WITH THAT?
YEAH, YEAH, VERY FRUSTRATED.
I'M VERY FRUSTRATED.
ARE THOSE THE KINDS OF SENTIMENTS YOU'RE HEARING AS WELL, AND WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE?
MY RESPONSE IS THIS, OBVIOUSLY ARE OBVIOUSLY VERY FRUSTRATED BECAUSE THERE ARE MANY CONTEXTUAL CHALLENGES THAT THEY ARE FACING.
IT'S NOT JUST THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DIRECTLY AFFECTED, BUT THE WHOLE COMMUNITY.
MY RESPONSE IS THAT IN OUR EXPERIENCE, WORKING WITH THE GOVERNMENT ENTITIES RESPONSIBLE FOR RELIEF MAKES THINGS GO FASTER.
SO WE ARE CONTINUING TO WORK WITH THE DIRECTION OF CIVIL PROTECTION AND THE MINISTRY TO DO WHAT WE DO BEST.
WORK WITH THE COMMUNITIES, GET THE AID TO THE PEOPLE.
SO I WON'T COMMENT ON THE GOVERNMENT CAPACITY AT THE CENTRAL LEVEL OR THE LOCAL LEVEL.
WE JUST WORK WITH THE ONES THAT WE NEED TO WORK WITH BECAUSE THE COMMUNITY AS TO OWN THE RESPONSE AS WELL.
WE DON'T JUST DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO, WE WILL DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO, BUT ALONGSIDE GOVERNMENT ENTITY.
I DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE SO MANY CRISES RIGHT NOW UNFOLDING AROUND THE WORLD, WHETHER IT BE COVID AND THE PANDEMIC, NOW OBVIOUSLY YOU HEARD THESE PREVIOUS TWO SEGMENTS ON AFGHANISTAN.
THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME, UNFORTUNATELY, THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING AND HAITI, IN PARTICULAR, HAS BEEN DEALT SUCH A DEVASTATING BLOW.
WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY WHO MAY BE JUST UTTERLY EXHAUSTED BY SEEING THIS HAPPEN ONCE AGAIN TO THIS BEAUTIFUL, BUT SMALL COUNTRY THAT CONTINUES TO BE RIDDEN WITH THESE HORRORS, AND NOT TO MENTION, A LOT OF CORRUPTION?
YOU KNOW WHAT, THANKS TO YOU, THE MEDIA, THE WORLD HAS BECOME A COMMUNITY.
SO COMMUNITIES WILL GO THROUGH DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES, HARD EXPERIENCES.
I THINK THAT WE SHOULD NOT GET TIRED.
WE SHOULD COME TOGETHER AS THE COMMUNITY, AND BY THAT I MEAN THE MEDIA, THE DONORS, OUR FRIENDS, THE COMMUNITIES IN HAITI, THE GOVERNMENTS COME TOGETHER AND COME TO THE AID OF THE PEOPLE IN NEED RIGHT NOW.
THEY NEED TO GET UP AND REBUILD, WE NEED TO HELP THEM REBUILD WHILE WE'RE PROVIDING EMERGENCY RELIEF.
GETTING TIRED IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM.
WE JUST NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN WE HELP THEM REBUILD, IT HAS TO BE SINCERELY SUSTAINABLE AS POSSIBLE.
AND THAT'S WHY WE WORK WITH COMMUNITIES SO THEY CAN OWN THE RELIEF, THEY CAN OWN THE REBUILD.
FOR THAT, WE NEED THE FUNDING.
WE NEED TO GET THE FUNDING ON THE GROUND SO WE CAN DO THE WORK.
IT APPEARS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO BE TIRED BECAUSE OF ALL OF THE WORK YOU'RE DOING.
YOU CAN'T BE TIRED.
JUST LOOK AT THE COMMUNITY IN THE UNITED STATES.
WE COME TOGETHER TO HELP, WE CAN JUST SIT THERE AND SAY LET THEM HELP THEMSELVES.
WE ARE A COMMUNITY IN THIS WORLD.
GLOBALLY WE ARE NOW A COMMUNITY.
YOU'RE TALKING TO ME RIGHT NOW, I'M IN HAITI, 75,000 MILES FROM THE EPICENTER OF THE EARTHQUAKE.
SO YOU'RE GETTING THE INFORMATION THAT YOU NEED, YOU'RE SHARING THE INFORMATION.
I THINK THE COMMUNITIES THAT I MENTIONED, LET'S COME TOGETHER AND HELP THESE PEOPLE RISE AGAIN, AND THEY WILL.
WELL SAID, MARGARITE.
AND, OF COURSE, WE WILL CONTINUE TO BE COVERING THIS STORY AS WELL.
WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND ALL THE WORK YOU'RE DOING.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THAT, FOR BEING PART OF THE COMMUNITY.
THANK YOU.
> AND IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THE WORK THEY'RE DOING TO SUPPORT THE VICTIMS OF THE HAITI EARTHQUAKE, GO TO CORERESPONSE.ORG.
> WE TURN TO U.S. POLITICS AND THE GERRYMANDERING OLYMPICS.
DAVID DALEY IS THE AUTHOR OF 'UNRIGGED' AND HE'S REFERRING TO THE CENSUS RELEASING DATA.
HERE HE IS.
THANKS FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU.
SO HERE WE ARE NOW AND WE ARE SEEING THE FIRST BITS OF DATA TRICKING OUT OF THE MOST RECENT CENSUS, AND I WANT TO ASK, WHAT SORTS OF POWER SHIFTS DO YOU SEE IN THESE NUMBERS, WHETHER IT'S RURAL VERSUS URBAN, ONE DEMOGRAPHIC OVER ANOTHER?
IT'S A FASCINATING SET OF NUMBERS, ABSOLUTELY.
WHAT WE ARE SEEING HERE IS THAT WE ARE QUICKLY BECOMING A MORE DIVERSE NATION, WE ARE BECOMING A LESS RURAL NATION, AND MORE OF US LIVE IN BIG CITIES OR BIG METRO AREAS THAN REALLY EVER BEFORE.
SO THIS IS -- IT SETS UP A FASCINATING COLLISION WITH THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS, WHICH IS THE OTHER THING THAT THIS DATA REALLY LAUNCHES THE START OF THE REDRAWING OF CONGRESSIONAL AND LEGISLATIVE LINES AROUND THE COUNTRY.
AND SO WHAT YOU'RE SEEING, ESPECIALLY IN STATES LIKE FLORIDA AND TEXAS AND NORTH CAROLINA AND GEORGIA, ARE HUGE GROWTHS IN THE HISPANIC, LATINO AND ASIAN POPULATIONS, BUT THAT IS GOING TO COLLIDE WITH THE FACT THAT IT IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT WILL HAVE THE POWER OF DRAWING NEW LINES IN ALL OF THOSE STATES.
SO THE REAL QUESTION, AND IN MANY WAYS IT COULD BE A DEFINING QUESTION FOR THE DEMOCRATIC HOUSE MAJORITY IN 2022 AND THE STATE OF PLAY FOR OUR POLITICS OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT DECADE, IS WHETHER OR NOT REPUBLICANS CAN USE REDISTRICTING IN THOSE STATES ESPECIALLY AS A WAY TO DEFY DEMOGRAPHIC TRENDS.
WHEN YOU RATTLE OFF THESE STATES, THESE ARE ALSO IMPORTANT IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, SO WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REDISTRICTING ENDS UP ALSO IMPACTING WHAT HAPPENS BOTH ON THE NATIONAL FEDERAL ELECTION LEVEL, BUT ALSO ON THE KIND OF LOCAL REPRESENTATION LEVEL.
SO EVEN IF THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE OVERWHELMINGLY VOTE ONE WAY, THAT REPRESENTATION, WHETHER BY IDEOLOGY OR PARTY, MIGHT NOT BE SEEN IN WHO HOLDS THE LEVERS OF POWER.
I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
AND THAT'S HOW REDISTRICTING REALLY WORKS.
WHEN REDISTRICTING IS TWISTED FOR PARTISAN ADVANTAGE, WE CALL THAT GERRYMANDERING, AND GERRYMANDERING IS MORE TOXIC AND POWERFUL THAN EVER BEFORE.
IN ALL OF THESE KEY STATES THAT WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT AS BEING SO CONTESTED AND COMPETITIVE AND EVOLVING, AND WHO LIVES THERE, FLORIDA, NORTH CAROLINA, TEXAS, GEORGIA, MICHIGAN, OHIO, WISCONSIN, PENNSYLVANIA, A CRUCIAL ELECTORAL COLLEGE BATTLEGROUNDS, DEEPLY COMPETITIVE STATES, REPUBLICANS MANAGE TO DRAW THOSE LINES IN 2011 IN SUCH A WAY THAT THEY DID NOT LOSE A SINGLE STATE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER IN ANY OF THOSE STATES OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST TEN YEARS.
AND AFTER THE 2018 ELECTION, YOU HAD 59 MILLION AMERICANS LIVING IN A STATE IN WHICH ONE OR BOTH CHAMBERS OF THEIR STATE LEGISLATURE WAS CONTROLLED BY REPUBLICANS, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD WON FEWER VOTES THAT YEAR.
THAT'S ALMOST ONE IN SIX OF US.
SO FOR PERHAPS OUR OVERSEAS AUDIENCE OR EVEN OUR AMERICAN AUDIENCE, HOW DOES GERRYMANDERING WORK?
THERE'S IDEAS OF PACKING AND CRACKING.
WHEN SOMEBODY HEARS YOUR ANSWER, THEY'RE GOING TO SAY, WAIT, I DON'T GET IT, WHAT IS HE TALKING ABOUT?
HOW IS IT THAT THEY CAN BE VOTING MORE DEMOCRATIC BUT HAVE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATORS?
WHAT HAPPENS.
PACKING AND CRACKING ARE REALLY THE TWO KEY TERMS WHEN IT COMES TO GERRYMANDERING.
IF YOU CONTROL DISTRICT LINES AND YOU CAN DECIDE WHO IS IN THEM AND WHO IS OUT OF THEM, YOU CAN DRAW DISTRICTS THAT PACK ALL OF THE OTHER SIDE'S VOTERS INTO AS FEW DISTRICTS AS POSSIBLE SO THEY WIN ALL OF THOSE DISTRICTS GOING AWAY, 75, 80, EVEN BIGGER MARGINS.
AND THEN THERE ARE FEWER OF THAT SIDE'S VOTERS FOR ALL OF THE OTHER DISTRICTS.
SO YOU CAN SIMPLY CRACK THOSE VOTERS AND DILUTE OTHER VOTES.
THINK OF IT THIS WAY.
IN ASHEVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA, OR IN AUSTIN, TEXAS, THESE ARE BLUE CITIES, BUT WHAT REPUBLICANS IN TEXAS AND NORTH CAROLINA DID WHEN THEY REDREW THOSE LINES IN 2011 IS, IN THE CASE OF ASHEVILLE, THEY DIVIDED IT IN HALF AND ATTACHED IT TO SORT OF RURAL MOUNTAIN AREAS AROUND IT, AND IN AUSTIN THEY SLICED IT UP LIKE A PIZZA INTO FIVE DIFFERENT SLICES, AND ATTACHED EACH OF THOSE PIECES TO MORE RURAL PARTS OF TEXAS.
SO AS A RESULT, INSTEAD OF ASHEVILLE ELECTING A DEMOCRAT, IT ELECTS TWO REPUBLICANS, INSTEAD OF AUSTIN, BLUE AUSTIN ELECTING DEMOCRATS, THOSE VOTES ARE SO INCONSEQUENTIAL THAT BLUE AUSTIN HAS FIVE DISTRICTS AND FOUR REPUBLICAN MEMBERS.
SO THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.
IT'S A REALLY EFFECTIVE WAY OF TRYING TO GATE IN THE OTHER SIDE'S VOTERS.
YOU WROTE RECENT THAT HAS ALREADY LED TO DEMOCRACY DESERTS, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
WHAT I MEAN BY DEMOCRACY DESERTS, IS THERE ARE HUGE SWATHS OF THE COUNTRY IN WHICH A MAJORITY OF VOTERS CAN NO LONGER CHANGE THEIR STATE LEGISLATURE IF THEY WISH TO.
IF YOU LOOK AT A STATE LIKE WISCONSIN, FOR EXAMPLE, IN 2018 YOU HAD VOTERS THERE WHO RE-ELECTED DEMOCRATIC SENATOR TAMMY BALDWIN AND DEFEATED A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR, SCOTT WALKER, AND GIVE DEMOCRATIC ASSEMBLY CANDIDATES 2,003 MORE VOTES THAN REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES, AND YET THAT ONLY TRANSLATED TO 36 OF THE 99 SEATS.
REPUBLICANS ALMOST HELD A SUPER MAJORITY EVEN THOUGH THEY LOST THE OVERALL VOTE BY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF VOTES.
AND THAT'S ALSO THE CASE IN PENNSYLVANIA, IT'S BEEN THE CASE IN MANY OTHER STATES OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST DECADE.
AND THEN YOU SEE WHAT THOSE GERRYMANDERED LEGISLATORS THEN DO ONCE THEY'RE INSULATED FROM THE VOTERS.
THEY ARE FREE TO PURSUE EFFECTIVELY WHATEVER EXTREME POLICIES THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO WITHOUT ANY REAL FEAR THAT THEY CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE AT THE BALLOT BOX.
THIS IS HOW YOU END UP SEEING REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS BILLS PASSED, VERY DRACONIAN ONES PASSED IN STATES LIKE GEORGIA AND OHIO AND MISSOURI, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE DEEPLY OUT OF STEP, OPINION POLES SHOW, WITH THE CITIZENS THERE.
IT'S HOW YOU CAN SEE IN STATES LIKE WISCONSIN AND PENNSYLVANIA STATE LEGISLATORS TRYING TO REIGN IN THE EMERGENCY POWERS AND MASK MANDATES IMPOSED BY A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE POPULAR WITH VOTERS.
GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF HOW THIS MIGHT AFFECT THE COMING ELECTION NEXT YEAR.
DEMOCRATS RIGHT NOW HOLD A FIVE-SEAT ADVANTAGE IN THE U.S.
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
THROUGH REDISTRICTING ALONE, REPUBLICANS COULD PICK UP SOMEWHERE CLOSE TO BETWEEN 10 AND 12 SEATS, IN TEXAS, FLORIDA, NORTH CAROLINA AND GEORGIA ALONE.
THEN THEY CAN DO ADDITIONAL CRACKING OF BLUE CITIES IN RED STATES LIKE THEY DID IN ASHEVILLE AND AUSTIN.
YOU COULD EXTEND THAT TO, SAY, KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI, OR LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY, PERHAPS MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE, AND PICK UP A HANDFUL OF SEATS THERE.
REPUBLICANS ARE ON RECORD SAYING THEY ARE GOING TO GERRYMANDER CONGRESSWOMAN DAVIS OUT OF HER SEAT IN KANSAS AND REPUBLICANS HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE PROCESS IN NEW HAMPSHIRE AND THEY'VE ALREADY MADE CLEAR THAT THEY INTEND TO DRAW THEMSELVES ONE OF THE TWO SEATS THERE.
SO THAT'S 15, 16 SEATS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
DEMOCRATS WILL BE ABLE TO IMPOSE GERRYMANDERS OF THEIR OWN, PERHAPS PICK UP A COUPLE OF SEATS IN ILLINOIS AND NEW YORK, PERHAPS ONE IN MARYLAND.
BUT THE MAP SIMPLY DOESN'T FAVOR THEM WHEN IT COMES TO THIS KIND OF OUTRAGEOUS BEHAVIOR.
REPUBLICANS COULD WIN THE U.S.
HOUSE IN 2022 THROUGH REDISTRICTING ALONE, AND WHAT I THINK IS SO DANGEROUS ABOUT THAT, I MEAN, DEMOCRATS WON A 4.7 MILLION MAJORITY IN THE POPULAR VOTE FOR THE U.S. HOUSE, YOU COULD HAVE A SITUATION IN WHICH DEMOCRATS WIN BY A SIMILAR MARGIN, BUT THE HOUSE BECOMES SO UNREPRESENTATIVE THAT GERRYMANDERING ALONE TIPS CONTROL THE OTHER DIRECTION.
YOU'VE GOT SPEAKER KEVIN McCARTHY AND POTENTIALLY SPEAKER DONALD TRUMP.
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF CONGRESS.
DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF CONGRESS.
THERE'S ALREADY WHISPERS THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT COULD BE INTERESTED IN THAT JOB.
I MEAN, IMAGINE IF REDISTRICTING TIPS THE HOUSE THE OTHER WAY DESPITE A BIG MAJORITY OF VOTERS AND DONALD TRUMP IS INSTALLED AS SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.
IT SOUNDS RIDICULOUS, BUT IT'S ENTIRELY POSSIBLE.
THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID PREVIOUSLY WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET INVOLVED IN THIS.
IF CONGRESS WANTS TO CHANGE THE RULES, LET THEM CHANGE THE RULES.
BUT I KIND OF FEEL LIKE THERE'S ALMOST A CONFLICT OF INTEREST THERE.
IS CONGRESS GOING TO CHANGE THEIR RULES THAT PUT THOSE SPECIFIC PEOPLE INTO POWER?
ARE THEY GOING TO SAY, OKAY, FINE, LET'S ALL TAKE OUR CHANCES AND REDRAW THE LINES IN SOME SORT OF MATHEMATICALLY FAIR WAY?
I THINK YOU'VE GOT YOUR FINGER ON THE PROBLEM.
THE U.S. SUPREME COURT IN 2019 DECLARED GERRYMANDERING A NON-POLITICAL ISSUE AND THEY EFFECTIVELY CLOSED THE DOORS OF THE FEDERAL COURTS TO THESE CASES.
BUT WE NEEDED THE FEDERAL COURTS TO STEP UP FOR THAT PRECISE REASON, BECAUSE POLITICIANS CAN'T BE TRUSTED TO DO THIS ON THEIR OWN.
THEY WILL ENTRENCH THEMSELVES IN OFFICE.
THEY HAVE EXACTLY THAT CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
IT'S WHY WE NEED THE COURTS TO BE A NEUTRAL AND INDEPENDENT ARBITER TO STAND UP FOR THE PEOPLE, TO STAND UP FOR THE VERY IDEA OF FAIRNESS AND VOTES THAT MATTER.
WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW IN CONGRESS THE DEBATE OVER THE FOR THE PEOPLE ACT, AND IT, TOO, NOW, IS RUNNING UP AGAINST ONE OF THE SMALL STATE STRUCTURAL IMPEDIMENTS TO REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY, THE FILIBUSTER.
YOU NEED TO HAVE 60 VOTES TO GET IT THROUGH THE U.S. SENATE, EVEN FOR A VOTE, AND THERE APPEARS TO BE VERY SLIM PATH OF THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENING.
SENATORS MANCHIN AND SINEMA ARE OPPOSED TO CHANGING THE FILIBUSTER RULE.
YOU HAVE A WHITE HOUSE THAT SEEMS TO BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN OUT-ORGANIZE PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING.
I WOULD SUGGEST THEY ASK THE CITIZENS OF WISCONSIN OR PENNSYLVANIA EXACTLY HOW EFFECTIVE THAT STRATEGY IS.
YOU CAN'T OUT-ORGANIZE PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING.
THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF ITS POWER.
AND DEMOCRATS HAVE THIS OPPORTUNITY RIGHT NOW, THEY HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OF WASHINGTON.
THEY HAVE THE PRESIDENCY, BOTH BRANCHES OF CONGRESS.
I THINK THAT THEY'RE EXTRAORDINARILY LIKELY TO LOSE THE HOUSE IN 2022, LARGELY BECAUSE OF REDISTRICTING.
HOWEVER, THEY HAVE A CHANCE NOW.
THEY'VE ALREADY SQUANDERED THE OPPORTUNITY.
AND IF THEY FAIL TO DO THIS NOW, GIVEN THE ALARM BELLS THAT HAVE GONE OFF, WATCHING WHAT'S HAPPENING AT STATE CAPITOLS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, I THINK IT WILL BE HISTORICAL SHAME.
THIS IS NOT JUST THE SORT OF PROBLEM THAT AFFECTS DEMOCRATS.
I'M ASSUMING THAT THIS IS ALSO A PROBLEM THAT AFFECTS REPUBLICANS IN HEAVILY BLUE STATES.
I MEAN, IF WE HAD A MORE REPRESENTATIVE SYSTEM WOULD WE FIND THAT THE COUNTRY IS MORE PURPLE IN MORE PLACES, OR MORE -- YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
NOT EVERYONE IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK IS DYED IN BLUE AND NOT EVERYBODY IN THE MIDDLE OF TULSA IS TOTALLY RED.
AND THAT'S THE NATURE OF SINGLE MEMBER TAKE OFF, IF YOU'RE A REPUBLICAN IN NEW YORK CITY OR A DEMOCRAT IN OKLAHOMA, YOU EFFECTIVELY HAVE NO REPRESENTATION.
IF WE WERE TO TRANSITION, AND I KNOW IT'S A BIG LIFT AT A TIME WHEN DOING ANYTHING ON VOTING SEEMS SO DIFFICULT AND SO PARTISAN, BUT WE ARE IN THIS REALLY IMPORTANT SERIOUS MOMENT IN WHICH THE COUNTRY IS MORE POLARIZED THAN PERHAPS IT'S BEEN AT ANY POINT IN TIME IN RECENT DECADES.
WE CAN'T EVEN HAVE THANKSGIVING DINNERS WITH EACH OTHER, RIGHT, WITHOUT MASHED POTATOES FLYING ACROSS THE TABLE.
AND OUR POLITICIANS ARE INCENTIVIZED TO BEHAVE IN ALL THE WRONG WAYS BECAUSE THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT PRIMARIES IN THE BASE IN WILDLY UNCOMPETITIVE DISTRICTS.
AND IF WE HAD A SYSTEM THAT USED MULTI-MEMBER DISTRICTS, LARGER DISTRICTS, RANKED CHOICE VOTING, YOU WOULD SEE THOSE INCENTIVES CHANGE ALMOST IMMEDIATELY.
YOU WOULD SEE REPUBLICANS REPRESENTED IN THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS, YOU WOULD SEE DEMOCRATS FROM OKLAHOMA, AND THEN THOSE MEMBERS WOULD GO TO WASHINGTON AND THEIR BEHAVIOR WOULD LIKELY CHANGE.
WE HAVE NOT HAD SORT OF LIBERAL, NEW ENGLAND REPUBLICANS OR CONSERVATIVE MIDWESTERN DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS FOR A LONG TIME, AND THOSE IN MANY WAYS ARE THE DEALMAKERS.
THAT'S WHERE THE GREASE IS IN THE SYSTEM.
AND RIGHT NOW WE ARE GRINDING OUR WHEELS.
SO LET ME TRY TO INJECT MAYBE SOME DOSE OF OPTIMISM HERE.
YOUR MOST RECENT BOOK 'UNRIGGED' YOU MET WITH SO MANY DIFFERENT ACTIVISTS WORKING ON THE GROUND TO TRY TO ENSURE DEMOCRACY.
IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS IS WHEN THESE MAPS ARE DRAWN.
AND IS THAT A PUBLIC PROCESS?
IS IT A BEHIND-CLOSED-DOORS PROCESS?
WHAT CAN A CITIZEN DO TO HAVE, AT THE VERY LEAST, A LOOK AT, IF NOT A SAY IN, HOW THEIR COMMUNITY IS CATEGORIZED AND DRAWN FOR ELECTORAL OUTCOMES?
THIS IS WHY WE OUGHT TO BE OPTIMISTIC.
IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN, A DEMOCRAT, OR AN INDEPENDENT, PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY HATE PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING.
IF YOU'RE A RED STATE, A BLUE STATE, A PURPLE STATE, WHEN THIS IS ON THE BALLOT, INDEPENDENT COMMISSIONS, THINGS THAT TAKE THIS OUT OF THE HANDS OF POLITICIANS ARE PUT BEFORE THE PEOPLE, IT WINS WITH 60%, 70% OF THE VOTE IN MISSOURI AND MICHIGAN AND OHIO, IN COLORADO, IT EVEN WINS IN UTAH.
SO VOTERS ARE ON THE SIDE OF FAIRNESS.
IT'S A HANDFUL OF POLITICIANS TRYING TO HOLD ONTO POWER THAT ARE ON THE WRONG SIDE.
SO WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS SMOKE THEM OUT.
WE HAVE TO INSIST THESE LINES BE DRAWN IN PUBLIC, THAT THE PROCESS BE TRANSPARENT, THAT POLITICIANS ARE ACCOUNTABLE, BECAUSE THESE DISTRICT LINES ARE THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF OUR DEMOCRACY.
WHEN THEY GET WARPED BY PARTISAN POLITICIANS AND TWISTED, IT DISTORTS THE VERY NATURE OF DEMOCRACY ITSELF.
AND WE CAN'T ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.
POLITICIANS LOVE TO HAVE THIS HAPPEN BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND IN CLOSED ROOMS.
THEY WANT YOU TO THINK THAT IT'S CONFUSING, IT'S MAPS AND IT'S MATH AND IT'S ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT A REGULAR PERSON CAN'T UNDERSTAND.
WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND THIS.
THIS IS ABOUT POLITICAL POWER, IT'S ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT YOUR VOTE COUNTS, AND ALL OF US IN THIS MOMENT HAVE TO SHOW THAT WE CARE ABOUT THIS AND THAT WE ARE GOING TO DEMAND A FAIR AND TRANSPARENT PROCESS.
DAVID DALEY, AUTHOR OF THE BOOKS 'WHY YOUR VOTE DOESN'T COUNT', THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU.
> AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE ABOUT OUR DEMOCRACY.
AND FINALLY A WIN FOR ENVIRONMENTALISTS.
AFTER FEDERAL JUDGE IN ALASKA BLOCKED AN OIL DRILLING PROJECT, HOME TO THE WILDLIFE REFUGE.
THEY CALLED THE RULING A CLIMATE VICTORY.
WELL, THAT IS IT FOR NOW.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM NEW YORK.
YOU CAN ALWAYS FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANKS FOR WATCHING ON PBS.
AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.