August 20, 2021

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> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & CO.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

DESPERATION IN KABUL AS A SCRAMBLE TO EVACUATE CONTINUES, CHAOS REIGNS.

I'LL SPEAK TO THE INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR AFGHANISTAN AS HE REFLECTS ON AMERICAN FAILURES.

> THEN --

I'VE GOT TO BELIEVE THAT WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS NOT IN OUR INTEREST.E ON THE PAINFUL LS OF AFGHANISTAN WITH GENERAL JOSEPH BOTEL WHO OVERSAW THE WAR UNTIL 2019.

> IF WE LEAVE RACISM UNATTENDED, IT WILL HARM THE COUNTRY IN A WAY THAT NO SET OF LAWS CAN SOLVE.

'WHEN THE STARS BEGIN TO FALL.'

THE THREAT OF RACISM AND RENEWING THE PROMISE OF AMERICA.

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> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE CHAOS WE'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST FEW DAYS AT KABUL'S AIRPORT SHOWS LITTLE SIGN OF EASING.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF FOREIGNERS AND AFGHANS WHO WORKED WITH U.S.

AND NATO FORCES REMAIN STRANDED.

THE DESPERATION CAPTURED IN THIS VIDEO HAS SOMEONE HANDS A BABY TO AN AMERICAN MARINE OVER A WALL.

THE BABY WAS TAKEN TO A MEDICAL TREATMENT FACILITATING.

PRESIDENT BIDEN ADDRESSED THE SITUATION FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

WE'RE GOING TO DO EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN TOOVIDE R ALLIES, PARTNERS AND AFGHANS WHO MIGHT BE TARGETED OF THE ASSOCIATION OF THE UNITED LET ME BE CLEAR, ANY AMERICAN WHO WANTS TO COME HOME, WE WILL GET YOU HOME.

MAKE NO MISTAKE, THIS EVACUATION MISSION IS DANGEROUS.

IT IS BEING CONDUCTED UNDER DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES.

I CANNOT PROMISE WHAT THE FINAL OUTCOME WILL BE AND WHAT IT WILL BE -- THAT IT WILL BE WITHOUT RISK OF LOSS.

BUT AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT I WILL MOBILIZE EVERY RESOURCE NECESSARY AND AS AN AMERICAN, I OFFER MY GRATITUDE TO THE BRAVE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE U.S. ARMED FORCES WHO ARE CARRYING OUT THIS IF WE HAD DECIDED 15 YEARS AGO TO LEAVE AFGHANISTAN, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN REALLY DIFFICULT.

IF WE DECIDED FIVE YEARS AGO, IF WE CONTINUE TO WORK FOR ANOTHER DECADE AND TRIED TO LEAVE, THERE'S NO WAY IN WHICH YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO LEAVE AFGHANISTAN WITHOUT THERE BEING SOME OF WHAT YOU'RE SEEING NOW.

THE U.S. EVACUATED AROUND 3,000 PEOPLE ON THURSDAY ALONE.

BUT SCENES AROUND THE COMPOUND REMAIN DISTRESSING.

THE TALIBAN ARE STATIONED RIGHT OVER OF IT AND EVEN PEOPLE WHO MAKE IT PAST THEM, FACE AN AGONIZING WAIT IN HEAT.

CLARISSA WARD IS ON THE GROUND AND GIVES US A SENSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING.

I HAVE TALKED TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR TWO DAYS, TWO DAYS.

AND IT'S SUCH A BOTTLENECK TRYING TO GET ALL THESE PEOPLE PROCESSED AND ALL THESE PEOPLE THROUGH.

AND THE PROBLEM IS, AT THESE BOTTLENECKS, YOU HAVE THESE VERY DANGEROUS SITUATIONS WHERE YOU HAVE A CRUSH OF PEOPLE AND CROWDS AND ONE SOLDIER WAS TELLING ME THAT YESTERDAY TWO WOMEN ACTUALLY THREW THEIR BABIES OVER THE FENCE, TRYING TO THROW THEM TO THE U.S. SOLDIERS, ONE SOLDIER CAUGHT THE BABY IN HIS ARMS.

HE WENT AND FOUND THE WOMAN AFTERWARDS TO GIVE THE BABY BACK.

BUT HONESTLY WHAT KIND OF DESPERATION DOES A PARENT HAVE TO BE IN WHERE THAT'S YOUR BEST HOPE IS TO TRY TO THROW YOUR BABY TO A SOLDIER TO GET THEM OUT, TO SAVE THEM FROM BEING CRUSHED, TO GIVE THEM A BETTER FUTURE.

AND I THINK THERE IS NOTHING THAT ILLUSTRATES BETTER THE PANIC, THE CHAOS, THE FEAR THAN THAT SUBSCRIPTION.

I TALKED TO ANOTHER BRITISH SOLDIER WHO STARTED TALKED TO ME AND HE STARTED WEEPING.

HE SAID I'VE DONE TWO TOURS.

BUT THE PTSD I WILL HAVE FROM THIS WEEK IS WORSE THAN EITHER OF THOSE DEPLOYMENTS.

I TALKED TO ONE WOMAN WHO GOT SEPARATED FROM HER FAMILY.

SHE WAS INSIDE HERE, BUT THE REST OF HER FAMILY WAS STUCK OUTSIDE THE BASE.

THERE IS NO MECHANISM FOR DEALING WITH A SITUATION LIKE THAT.

IF YOU LOSE YOUR FAMILY, YOU LOST YOUR FAMILY.

THERE'S NO WAY TO RECONNECT PEOPLE.THERE'S NO WAY TO BRING N FROM THE FLOOD GATES.

THERE JUST ISN'T A COHERENT MECHANISM IN PLACE TO PROCESS THESE PEOPLE.

EVEN SOMETHING SIMPLE LIKE TENTS, GET THESE PEOPLE SOME TENTS, OKAY?

I'M OKAY.

BUT THE WOMEN WITH THEIR BABIES, THEY CAN'T BE STANDING OUT IN THE 95-DEGREE SUN FOR EIGHT HOURS.

THEY JUST CAN'T.

THEY'RE GETTING WATER.

THEY'RE HANDING OUT MREs, MILITARY MEALS READY TO EAT AND THEY'RE DOING THE BEST THEY CAN.

BUT IT IS STILL A REALLY, REALLY, REALLY TOUGH SITUATION HERE.

CLARISSA WARD ON THE GROUND RECALLING SCENE AFTER SCENE OF JUST TRAUMA.

AND AS THESE SCENES ARE BEAMED AROUND THE WORLD, MANY ARE REFLECTING ON AMERICA'S FAILURES IN THIS WAR.

MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT HAS BEEN THE SPECIAL INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR AFGHANISTAN SINCE 2012.

IN A NEW REPORT, HE WRITES, IF THE GOAL IS TO REBUILD AND LEAVE BEHIND A COUNTRY THAT CAN SUSTAIN ITSELF AND POSE LITTLE THREAT TO U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS, THE OVERALL PICTURE IS BLEAK.

HE JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

AND I JUST GET CHILLS HEARING THOSE WORDS AND READING THEM ONCE AGAIN, JOHN.

YOU ARE NOT MINCING WORDS THERE.

TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE EXPERIENCING AS YOU SEE THIS CHAOS UNFOLD.

WELL, IT'S EXTREMELY DISTRESSING TO ME AND MY STAFF, MANY WHO HAVE WORKED FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS WITH ME, BECAUSE WE HAVE WORKED THERE.

WE'VE TRIED FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS TO IMPROVE THE CHANCES OF AFGHANISTAN TO TURN INTO A WORKING, FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY.

AND IT'S ALSO DISTRESSING BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW THE -- NOT ONLY THE AMERICANS WHO DID GREAT WORK THERE AND PARTICULARLY I THINK OUR MILITARY WHO DID GREAT WORK AND WE DESERVE A WORD OF PRAISE TO THEM.

I KNOW A LOT OF THEM ARE PROBABLY DISTRESSED.

THEY HELPED US AND SAVED US FROM A TERRORIST ATTACK FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS.

BUT ALSO I KNOW QUITE A FEW AFGHANS AND WORKED WITH SOME MANY BRAVE AFGHAN SOLDIERS AND CIVIL SOCIETY PEOPLE, JOURNALISTS, GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WHO NOW ARE ALL IN TROUBLE.AND I FEEL FOR THEM ALL.

AND I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW AND CONGRESS HAS A RIGHT TO KNOW WHY THE AFGHAN MILITARY SO SUDDENLY COLLAPSED, WHY THE GOVERNMENT SO SUDDENLY COLLAPSED.

WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE MONEY THAT WAS LEFT BEHIND THAT WE GAVE THEM?

WE'RE HEARING RUMORS ABOUT SOME OF IT HAVING LEFT WITH SOME OF THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS.

WHAT'S HAPPENED TO ALL THIS WEAPONS WE LEFT?

AND WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THE WOMEN AND GIRLS WHO WE TRIED TO PROTECT?

AND WE STAND READY TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS WITH THE DIRECTION AND HELP OF CONGRESS.

A LOT TO UNPACK THERE.

JUST TO GET BACK TO THOSE CONTACTS AND AFGHANS ON THE GROUND WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH YOU AND YOUR TEAM, I BELIEVE YOU'RE HELPING TO FACILITATE SOME OF THEIR TRIPS OUT OF THE COUNTRY AS WELL.

IS THAT TRUE?

WELL, WE'RE TRYING TO.

WE'RE USING THE STATE DEPARTMENT SYSTEM AND WE'VE WORKED WITH THE STATE DEPARTMENT FOR WEEKS GIVING THEM THE NAMES OF PEOPLE.

WE'RE JUST SO HAPPY THAT OUR IMMEDIATE STAFF LEFT AND GOT OUT, NOW WE'RE WORKING TO GET THE AFGHANS OUT.

JOHN, LET'S START UNPACKING THIS AND ANSWERING SOME OF THOSE QUESTIONS THAT YOU IMPORTANTLY LAID OUT THERE.

20 YEARS LATER WHY ARE WE IN THIS POSITION?

WHAT DID THE MILITARY -- IS IT AN INTELLIGENCE FAILURE, A DIPLOMATIC FAILURE?

WHAT WENT WRONG?

WELL, I CAN'T SPEAK DIRECTLY FOR THE ISSUE ABOUT THE SIV PROGRAM AND THE OTHER PROGRAM TO GET PEOPLE OUT.

OUR REPORT DOESN'T FOCUS ON WE FOCUS ON THE RECONSTRUCTION ELEMENT WHICH INCLUDES THE TRAIN, ADVISE AND ASSIST MISSION.

WHAT WE -- THE BOTTOM LINE OF OUR REPORT IS THAT WE WERE ILL PREPARED AND OUR COUNTRY IS ILL PREPARED FOR SUCH A HUGE TASK AND IN PART IS BECAUSE WHEN WE WERE IN VIETNAM AND AFTER VIETNAM WE DECIDED, THE ADMINISTRATIONS DECIDED AND CONGRESS TO BASICALLY CUT THE USAID'S CAPABILITY, STATE DEPARTMENT'S CAPABILITY, D.O.D.'S CAPABILITY TO CARRY OUT SUCH A COMPLEX AND MAJOR TASK.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THIS WAS THE LARGEST DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SINCE THE MARSHALL PLAN, AND IT ACTUALLY COST MORE THAN THE MARSHALL PLAN.

WE ELIMINATED THAT BECAUSE WE THOUGHT WE WOULD NEVER DO THIS AGAIN.UNFORTUNATELY, WE DID IT N IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

WE DID IT THREE TIMES IN THE LAST 50 YEARS AND WE'RE DOING SORT OF NASCENT PROGRAMS LIKE THIS RIGHT NOW IN AFRICA.

I'VE HEARD FROM PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THAT WE SHOULD DO A RECONSTRUCTION PROGRAM IN A VERY DANGEROUS ENVIRONMENT OF HAITI.

I'M NOT OPPOSED TO DOING THAT.

THERE PROBABLY IS A NEED TO DO THAT SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE.

BUT WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS LEARN SOME LESSONS FROM THE FAILURE OF THE LAST TWO YEARS.

AND THAT'S WHAT THIS REPORT IS ALL ABOUT.

AND I KNOW THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO CONFLATE YOUR REPORT WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND THERE.

BUT I THINK THERE'S AN ARGUMENT TO BE MADE THAT IT IS KIND OF RELATED.

BECAUSE OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE $145 BILLION SPENT, THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF SAYING THAT HE WAS DEPENDING ON SOME 300,000 TRAINED AFGHAN SOLDIERS, USING U.S. MILITARY EQUIPMENT, WITH A GOVERNMENT THERE BACKED BY THE UNITED STATES, WORKING HAND IN HAND, THE U.S. GIVING THE GOVERNMENT MONEY AS WELL.

ALL OF THAT COLLAPSING WITHIN A MATTER OF 11 DAYS, TWO WEEKS.

SO THAT'S WHY I ASKED WHAT YOU THINK HAS HAPPENED WITH ALL OF THE SQUANDERED MONEY AND IT SEEMS TO EVEN SURPRISE THE PEOPLE AT THE VERY TOP OF THIS COUNTRY.

I THINK THE SPEED OF THE COLLAPSE OF THE AFGHAN MILITARY AND THE GOVERNMENT SURPRISED EVERYONE.

BUT THE PROBLEMS THAT LED TO THE COLLAPSE SHOULD NOT HAVE.

WE HAVE WRITTEN OVER APPROXIMATELY 700 REPORTS, 11 LESSONS LEARNED REPORTS, IN-DEPTH STUDIES OF THE AFGHAN MILITARY, THE CORRUPTION ISSUE, THE STABILIZATION ISSUE, ET CETERA.

WE'VE GONE THROUGH THEM ALL.

AND SO NO ONE SHOULD BE SURPRISED.

WE HAVE HIGHLIGHTED THE PROBLEM WITH THE COMPETENCY OF THE AFGHAN MILITARY.

WE ISSUED FOUR HIGH-RISK LIST REPORTS, FOR EVERY NEW CONGRESS COMING IN.

WHERE WE TALKED ABOUT THAT THE AFGHAN MILITARY WAS INCAPABLE OF -- AND WE SAID INCAPABLE -- TO STAND ON THEIR OWN.

WE HIGHLIGHTED THE PROBLEM WHEN YOU PULLED OUT THE ENABLERS, THE AFGHAN -- THE U.S. TROOPS THAT SUPPORTED THEM.

WE HIGHLIGHTED THE FACT IF YOU PULLED OUT THE CONTRACTORS, BECAUSE THE AFGHANS COULDN'T MAINTAIN THEIR EQUIPMENT, PARTICULARLY THEIR AIR FORCE, EVEN THE U.S. AIR FORCE HIGHLIGHTED THAT LAST YEAR, SAID IF THE CONTRACTORS LEAVE, THE AFGHAN AIR FORCE WILL COLLAPSE WITHIN A MATTER OF WEEKS.

SO NO ONE CAN SAY THEY WEREN'T SURPRISED.D WE HAVE HIGHLIGHTEDS LONG AS I'VE BEEN THERE, THAT THE NUMBER OF 300,000 AFGHAN SOLDIERS AND POLICE WAS BOGUS.

BECAUSE OF GHOST SOLDIERS AND GHOST POLICE.

ACTUALLY, A LOT OF OTHER GHOSTS.

I'VE BEEN CHASING GHOSTS AND STOLEN GASOLINE AND GANGSTERS FOR YEARS THERE.

SO NO ONE CAN ACT SURPRISED THAT THE FACT THAT THE AFGHAN MILITARY, EXCEPT FOR THE AIR FORCE AND THE SPECIAL FORCES, MELTED AWAY.

AND THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, THOUGH, IS STILL USING THAT 300,000 NUMBER.

LET'S GET TO SOME OF SPECIFICS IN TERMS OF WASTE.

YOU TOUCHED ON ONE OF THEM.

ONE OF YOUR REPORTS FOUND THAT THE U.S. SPENT $43 MILLION ON A WORTHLESS GAS STATION.

ANOTHER 28 MILLION WAS WASTED ON CAMOUFLAGE UNIFORMS.

IS IT JUST THAT THE U.S. DID NOT WANT TO LISTEN -- I'M TALKING ABOUT CONGRESS, THE U.S.

CONGRESS, DID NOT WANT TO LISTEN TO THESE WARNINGS THAT YOU REPEATED TIME AND TIME AGAIN?

WHAT WAS THEIR RESPONSE?

WELL, MANY IN CONGRESS ACTUALLY WERE OUTRAGED BY THIS AND SOME OF OUR RECOMMENDATIONS WERE INTRODUCED.

BUT, AGAIN, IT'S A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED.'S LIKE TRYING TO CE MOTION OF A -- IN THE DIRECTION OF A SHIP AND THAT'S HARD.

AND THAT TAKES TIME.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON DID NOT WANT TO HEAR BAD NEWS.

OUR SYSTEM -- AND WE TALKED ABOUT THAT -- IS IN PLACE BECAUSE OF ROTATIONS OF STAFF, BECAUSE OF THE APPROPRIATION CYCLE TO REPORT SUCCESS.

AND THERE'S AN INCENTIVE -- I USE THE TERM MENDACITY, THEY TELL CONGRESS ONLY THE GOOD NEWS.

AND THAT'S AN INCENTIVE I THINK OF BUREAUCRACIES IN GENERAL.

THERE ARE PEOPLE SITTING IN THE BOARDROOMS OF GOVERNMENT -- NOT GOVERNMENT, BUT U.S. INDUSTRY WHO'S JOB IS TO KEEP BAD NEWS FROM GETTING TO THE CEO OR THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS.

IT'S NOT UNIQUE.

IT'S NOT UNIQUE ONLY TO IT'S INTERESTING, SO MANY LABEL THIS AS THE LONGEST WAR, AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR.

THEY TALK ABOUT 20 YEARS THAT THE U.S. HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN AFGHANISTAN, BUT YOU CONTEND THAT WE DIDN'T FIGHT ONE 20-YEAR WAR, WE FOUGHT ONE WAR 20 TIMES.

EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE THERE.

WELL, IN PART IT'S BECAUSE OUR POLICIES CHANGE SO MUCH.

SO OUR -- WE SWITCHED FROM GOING AFTER AL QAEDA AND THEN IT WAS THE TO GO AFTER THE TALIBAN, AND THEN IT WAS TO DO NATION-BUILDING, AND THEN THE OTHER PROBLEM AS I TALK ABOUT THESE ROTATIONS.

OUR PEOPLE WE SEND OVER STAYED ONLY A YEAR AT MOST.

OUR AGENCY WAS KIND OF AN EXCEPTION BECAUSE MOST OF MY PEOPLE IN AFGHANISTAN WERE THERE FIVE YEARS OR MORE.

AND SO WHAT HAPPENS, WHEN YOU'RE ON A SHORT ROTATION, YOU HAVE TO SHOW SUCCESS DURING YOUR ROTATION.

SO WHAT YOU USUALLY DO IS SAY, MY PREDECESSOR, HE WAS -- HE MADE MISTAKES.

THE AFGHANS ARE IN BAD SHAPE.

BUT NOW I SUCCEEDED.

SO YOU GET A -- WHAT WE CALL A SHARK TOOTH OF ASSESSMENTS.

THE OTHER THING -- AND THIS IS ALSO IMPORTANT -- IS THAT WE SET UNREALISTIC DEADLINES AS EACH ADMINISTRATION CAME AND AS CONGRESS WAS FACED WITH THIS LONG WAR, WE STARTED TO SET DEADLINES WHICH DID NOT REFLECT THE REALITY ON THE GROUND.

SO WE FORCED A LOT OF OUR PEOPLE OUT THERE TO SPEND MONEY WITHOUT ANY CONCEPT OF IT DOING ANY GOOD.

IF ANYTHING, IT CONTRIBUTED TO THE PROBLEM BECAUSE IT CONTRIBUTED TO THE CORRUPTION.

THAT'S THE THING WE HIGHLIGHT IN THIS REPORT IS THE SHORT TIMELINES THAT WERE TOTALLY UNREALISTIC, THAT WE SET.

AND WE FORCED OUR AMBASSADORS AND OUR AID OFFICIALS AND OUR MILITARY TO SPEND MONEY LIKE DRUNKEN SAILORS.

YEAH.

IT'S -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO END THIS INTERVIEW WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT YOU JUST VIEW THIS AS ALL BEING ONE BIG WASTE BECAUSE THERE WERE BRIGHT SPOTS.

WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE, GIRLS AT SCHOOLS, AND NOW YOU CONTRAST THAT WITH IMAGES OF BABIES BEING THROWN OVER BARBED WIRE AT THE AIRPORT JUST TO GET THESE KIDS A BETTER FUTURE.

IT IS HEARTBREAKING TO SEE, BUT NO ONE CAN SAY THAT YOU AT LEAST DIDN'T SOUND THE ALARM.

US.NK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING WE APPRECIATE IT.T'S A PLEASURE.

> AS WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING THE AFGHANISTAN WITHDRAWAL HOLDS SO MANY PAINFUL LESSONS FOR THE UNITED STATES AND ITS NATO ALLIES.

CAN'T ANSWER STOLTENBERG.

THERE ARE HARD QUESTIONS THAT WE NEED TO ASK OURSELVES ABOUT THE ENGAGEMENT IN AFGHANISTAN.

WE WERE CLEAR-EYED ABOUT THE RISKS OF WITHDRAWING OUR TROOPS, BUT THE SPEED OR COLLAPSE OF THE MILITARY LEADERSHIP AND ARMED FORCES WAS NOT ANTICIPATED.

THERE ARE MANY LESSONS TO BE LEARNED AND I INTEND TO CONDUCT A THOROUGH ASSESSMENT OF NATO'S ENGAGEMENT IN AFGHANISTAN.

FOR MANY ON THIS I WANT TO RETURNED TO RETIRED GENERAL JOSEPH OTEL.

I SPOKE TO HIM A LITTLE EARLIER TODAY BEFORE PRESIDENT BIDEN'S GENERAL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.

I HAVE TO START BY ASKING YOU WHAT HAS BEEN GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND THIS WEEK AS YOU HAVE BEEN SEEING THESE IMAGES COMING OUT OF KABUL, ALL THE CHAOS UNFOLDING THERE, PARTICULARLY AT THE AIRPORT.

YEAH, THANKS.

IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

I THINK THE EMOTIONS I'M FEELING ARE PROBABLY THE SAME EMOTIONS OF MANY VETERANS FROM THE AFGHAN EXPERIENCE ARE FEELING.

THERE'S A DISAPPOINTMENT THAT IT'S ENDING THIS WAY AND WE ARE LEAVING THE AFGHAN PEOPLE IN THE LURCH.

THERE'S SADNESS FOR WHAT'S PLAYING OUT ON TV AND CERTAINLY THE HUMANITARIAN DETERIORATING HUMANITARIAN SITUATION OUTSIDE OF THE GATES OF KABUL.

OF COURSE, FRANKLY, IT'S GIVING AWAY TO A LITTLE BIT OF ANGER, JUST FOR HOW WE'RE BEING PORTRAYED NOW AND THE IMPACT THIS IS HAVING ON OUR CREDIBILITY AND, YOU KNOW, THE GOODNESS THAT THE UNITED STATES NORMALLY TRIED TO BRING IN THESE

TALK MORE ABOUT THAT ANCHOR.

BECAUSE AS I'M SURE YOU'VE HEARD, THE PRESIDENT EARLIER THIS WEEK SAY IN AN INTERVIEW THAT THIS OUTCOME WAS -- AS HE THAT THIS CHAOS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN, WHETHER IT WAS THIS WEEK OR IN THE COMING WEEKS OR

I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT.

I THINK THERE WERE A LOT OF OPTIONS AVAILABLE FOR US.

AGAIN, REASONABLE PEOPLE CAN AGREE OR DISAGREE ON THE APPROACH THAT WE'RE TAKING HERE.

BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, WHEN THE DECISION IS MADE TO DEPART, THE WAY THAT WE GO ABOUT THIS, I THINK WE ALWAYS HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO MITIGATE RISK, NOT ONLY TO OUR FORCE, BUT TO THE -- THE OTHER PARTIES INVOLVED IN THIS AND I BELIEVE THE FACT THAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO THIS AGAINST THE TIMELINE, I THINK HAS CAUSED THIS TO MAKE US DECISIONS THAT HAVE MADE THIS SITUATION MUCH WORSE THAN IT NEEDED TO BE.

LET'S DIG MORE INTO THIS TIMELINE BECAUSE AS WE KNOW, IT WAS SET BY THE PRESIDENT, RIGHT, AND MANY SAY THAT THE TALIBAN HAD NOT BEEN LIVING UP TO ITS RESPONSIBILITIES AND ITS PLEDGES.

YOU WERE ASKED EARLIER IN ANOTHER INTERVIEW ABOUT WHY THE U.S. DIDN'T DO MORE TO SLOW THE TALIBAN'S ADVANCES AND YOU SAID, I THINK IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT THIS WAS NO LONGER A PRIORITY FOR OUR GOVERNMENT.

SHOULD IT HAVE BEEN MORE OF A PRIORITY?

I THINK THAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN.INK WE HAD AN OBLIGATION TO TRY TO SUPPORT OUR PARTNERS AS BEST WE COULD, AS WE CONDUCTED OUR WITHDRAWAL HERE.

I THINK WE PUT OURSELVES INTO A SITUATION THAT IS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO SUPPORT.

I DON'T WANT TO UNDEREMPHASIZE THE DIFFICULTY OF THIS OPERATING ENVIRONMENT RIGHT NOW.

WE ARE RELYING ON RESOURCES COMING FROM OVER THE HORIZON.

THEY HAVE LIMITED OPPORTUNITY TO OPERATE IN THE AIR SPACE OVER IT IS A RAPIDLY MOVING, DEVELOPING SITUATION, CERTAINLY AS WE SAW THE CITIES OF AFGHANISTAN FALLING OVER THE LAST WEEK OR SO.

SO I THINK -- I WANT TO EMPHASIS, IT IS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO DO THAT.

IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE, BUT IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO DO THAT.

AND I THINK WE HAVE PUT OURSELVES INTO A POSITION WHERE IT HAS BEEN DIFFICULT FOR US TO RESPOND TO THIS VERY RAPIDLY DEVELOPING SITUATION.

AND THIS, I THINK HAS MADE THINGS WORSE ON THE GROUND.

THE U.S. EMBASSY IN KABUL HAS ISSUED A NEW ALERT TO U.S.

CITIZENS IN PARTICULAR TRYING TO GET TO THE AIRPORT.

AND THEY SAID, GET TO THE AIRPORT WHEN YOU JUDGE IT IS SAFE TO DO SO.

DUE TO LARGE CROWDS AND SECURITY CONCERNS, GATES MAY OPEN OR CLOSE WITHOUT NOTICE.

PLEASE USE YOUR BEST JUDGMENT AND ATTEMPT TO ENTER THE AIRPORT AT ANY GATE THAT IS OPEN.

THIS SEEMS TO READ THAT AMERICANS WHO ARE STILL THERE TRYING TO GET TO THE AIRPORT ARE BASICALLY ON THEIR OWN.

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT TO GET THAT AIRPORT SECURED?

WELL, I THINK AS YOU LOOK AT THE SITUATION, MY PERSPECTIVE, I THINK THE PHYSICAL AIRPORT WHERE WE OPERATE AIRCRAFT AND WERE MOVING PEOPLE AROUND INSIDE THE CONFINES OF KABUL INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT IS PROBABLY PRETTY SECURE.THE CHALLENGE, OF COURSES OUTSIDE OF THE AIRPORT.

IT'S THE APPROACHES INTO THE GATES THAT SEEM TO BE CAUSING A LOT OF PROBLEM AND WHILE THE GUIDANCE THAT I THINK IS -- HAS BEEN DISSEMINATED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE, CERTAINLY THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THAT MAY HAVE BEEN APPROPRIATE GUIDANCE.

I THINK AT THIS POINT, I THINK IT'S EVIDENT THAT IT IS A THERE'S -- PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO TAKE RISKS TO TRY TO DO THIS AND THERE MAY BE AN ELEMENT OF THAT IN IT.

BUT WE PROBABLY NEED TO BEGIN TO LOOK AT OTHER WAYS TO GET OUT AND RECOVER AMERICAN CITIZENS AND GET THEM BACK TO THE AIRFIELD SO WE CAN EVACUATE THEM SAFELY.I DON'T WANT TO SAY THIST WITHOUT SOME RISK.

IT CERTAINLY IS.

WE WILL BE PUTTING AMERICAN SERVICEMEN AND WOMEN IN HARM'S WAY TO TRY TO DO THIS.

BUT THIS IS ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT WE CAN GET EVERY AMERICAN CITIZEN THAT WANTS TO GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.

THAT'S IS WHAT THE MISSION IS.

AND I THINK RELYING ON THE TALIBAN TO ALLOW THEM TO MOVE TO THE AIRFIELD I THINK IS RISKY AT THIS POINT.

AND WE HAVE TO BE PREPARED TO GO OUT AND HAVE HELP WITH THIS OURSELVES AND GET AMERICANS TO THE AIRFIELD.

YEAH, AND ONE OF THOSE OPTIONS THAT WE PUBLICLY HAD BEEN HEARING ABOUT IS PERHAPS LEAVING 2,500, 3,000 TROOPS ON THE AND THAT NUMBER ALONE WOULD HAVE KEPT THE TALIBAN AT BAY.

THE PRESIDENT RESPONDED TO THAT AND SAID THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE CASE.

THERE HAS BEEN A TIMELINE AND AN AGREEMENT WITH THE TALIBAN AND HAD THAT AGREEMENT NOT BEEN FOLLOWED THROUGH ON, THAT PERHAPS THE TALIBAN WOULD HAVE ATTACKED THOSE 2,000 OR 3,000 THAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

THE TALIBAN HAS NOT LIVED UP TO ANY PART OF THEIR AGREEMENT THE ENTIRE WAY THROUGH.

WE MADE AN AGREEMENT WITH THEM, YOU KNOW, QUITE SOME TIME AGO THAT PUT US ON A TIMELINE TO DEPART AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAD ASKED FOR THEM TO RENOUNCE AL QAEDA, WE ASKED FOR THEM TO ENGAGE WITH THE GOVERNMENT OF AFGHANISTAN AND THEY SIMPLY REFUSED TO DO THAT.

SO WE HAVE CONTINUED TO ADHERE TO THE AGREEMENTS MADE, BUT THE PARTNER -- THE OTHER PARTNERS AND THE AGREEMENTS HAVE NOT DONE THIS.

TO ME, REALLY UNDERMINES THE WHOLE AGREEMENT HERE.

IN MY ESTIMATION, MY PERSONAL VIEW HERE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHEN WE ENTER INTO THESE TYPES OF CONFLICTS, WE NEED TO BE PREPARED TO SEE THEM THROUGH.

AND I DON'T WANT TO PROLONG A WAR IN AFGHANISTAN ANY MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE DOES.

BUT WE DO HAVE INTERESTS IN THE REGION.

AND I'VE GOT TO BELIEVE THAT WHAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS NOT IN OUR INTEREST.

WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, UNDERMINED OUR PARTNERS ON THE GROUND.

WE'RE TAKING AN INCREDIBLE HITS TO OUR CREDIBILITY HERE.

WE'RE LOSING INFLUENCE.

TO ME, THESE ALL GO AFTER THE IMPORTANT INTEREST THAT WE HAVE HAD IN THE REGION.

AND I JUST -- I JUST HAVE GOT TO BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO US THAT WOULD HAVE PRESERVED THIS ORIN E CONDITIONS BASED APPROACH THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR THE AFGHAN PEOPLE AND CERTAINLY BETTER FOR US AT THIS STAGE.

IS IT TOO LATE NOW TO GO BACK AND IMPLEMENT SOME OF THOSE OTHER OPTIONS?

WELL, WHETHER WE GO BACK OR NOT, I MEAN THAT'S CERTAINLY A DECISION FOR THE PRESIDENT AND OUR LEADERSHIP.

BUT I WOULD JUST SAY IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND RIGHT NOW OUR FOCUS, AS WE'VE SEEN, IS REALLY ON GETTING OUR CITIZENS AND THOSE AFGHANS WHO HAVE SUPPORTED US AND ARE NOW VERY VULNERABLE TO THE TALIBAN, GETTING THEM OUT.

AND WE NOW SHOULD DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT IS SUCCESSFUL AND THAT WE ACCOMPLISH THAT MISSION TO THE VERY, VERY BEST OF YOUR ABILITIES.

WHETHER WE GO BACK IN OR NOT, I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY A DISCUSSION FOR ANOTHER TIME.

I THINK THE TASK IN FRONT OF US IS VERY, VERY CLEAR, IT IS TO GET OUR PEOPLE OUT, GET THOSE AFGHANS WHO HAVE SUPPORTED US OUT AND DO IT AS SAFELY, AS QUICKLY, AND AS EFFECTIVELY AS WE CAN.

YOU SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THE NUMBER OF AFGHANS THAT YOU'VE PERSONALLY MET AND MADE CONNECTIONS WITH.

HAVE YOU BE IN TOUCH WITH THEM?

ARE ALL OF YOUR CONTACTS AND FRIENDS THERE ON THE GROUND, ARE THEY SAFE NOW?

WELL, NO, NOT ALL OF THEM I'VE CERTAINLY BEEN IN TOUCH WITH A NUMBER WHO HAVE REACHED OUT TO ME AND WHO I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO ASSIST AND THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER OF OTHER GROUPS OUT THERE WHO ARE DOING THIS.

AND I THINK THIS IS ONE THING THAT WE REALLY NEED TO THINK I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH ORGANIZATIONS LIKE NO ONE LEFT BEHIND AND A VARIETY OF OTHER ORGANIZATIONS WHO ARE REALLY FOCUSED ON HELPING GET OUR PARTNERS OUT.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE DOZENS AND DOZENS OF GROUPS LIKE THIS THAT ARE TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE GET OUT.

I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE COLLECTIVELY PULL ALL THAT TOGETHER, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE CONNECTIONS AND NETWORKS AND MANY OF OUR NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS OR OTHERS THAT ARE TRYING TO HELP WITH THIS HAVE RIGHT NOW TO HELP US ACCOMPLISH THIS MISSION.

SOME HAVE REFERRED TO THIS AS A DUNKIRK MOMENT AND THERE'S A COUPLE ASPECTS OF THAT.

ONE ASPECT OF A DUNKIRK MOMENT IS A NATION COMING TOGETHER TO SOLVE THIS VERY DIFFICULT AND WE HAVE CITIZENS THAT REALLY CARE ABOUT THIS, ARE DOING WORK TO HELP GET AFGHANS RIGHT NOW, GET AFGHANS OUT OF THEIR, HELP GET OUR OWN CITIZENS OUT OF THERE AND WE NEED TO LEVERAGE THAT AS MUCH AS WE CAN RIGHT NOW.

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT THAT THE PRESIDENT FOCUS MORE ON THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE?

HE WAS CRITICIZED FOR NOT TALKING ABOUT AFGHANS, IN PARTICULAR, THOSE WHO HAD BEEN HELPING THE U.S. FOR THESE PAST TWO DECADES.

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT THAT WE WELCOME AS MANY AS WE CAN TO THE UNITED STATES?

WELL, I THINK WE -- I THINK WE HAVE TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT HERE, WHAT'S MORALLY RIGHT, FOR THOSE WHO PUT IT ON THE LINE FOR US, TO GIVE THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET HERE.

I GET WE CAN'T PROCESS EVERYBODY IN THE SAME WAY THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO.

SO IF WE GET THEM THE THIRD COUNTRY LOCATIONS OR GET THEM TO OUR OWN COUNTRY AND WE COMPLETE THE PROCESS AND DO IT AS WELL AS WE CAN, I THINK WE CAN DO THAT.

I GREW UP IN ST. PAUL, THIS WAS THE PLACE WHERE WE BROUGHT MON BACK.

I'M CERTAIN IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR OUR COUNTRY.

BUT MY COMMUNITY WELCOMED THEM, 40, 50 YEARS AFTER THEY ARRIVED, THEY'RE INTEGRATED AND VERY POSITIVE CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY.

I THINK THE AFGHANS CAN BE EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.

AND I THINK WE OWE IT TO THEM TO DO THE RIGHT THING HERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S LOTS OF PRIORITIES UNDER WAY RIGHT NOW IN OUR COUNTRY. GOT TO BE NEAR P OF THE LIST AND WHY WE NEED TO DO THE RIGHT THING BY OUR PARTNERS ON THE GROUND.

FINALLY, GENERAL, ONE INDELIBLE IMAGE FROM ALL OF THE CHAOS THAT WE HAD SEEN THIS WEEK ARE WHAT APPEARED TO BE FALLING BODIES OFF OF U.S. PLANES TAKING OFF FROM KABUL.HOSE HAS BEEN IDD AND IT IS A 17-YEAR-OLD BOY.

HE IS A MEMBER OF AFGHANISTAN'S NATIONAL YOUTH SOCCER TEAM.

AND HE HAD WORKED HIS WAY UP FROM POVERTY AND HIS FAMILY WORKING HARD, HONING IN ON HIS SKILLS AS A SOCCER PLAYER AND MAKING IT TO THE NATIONAL YOUTH SOCCER TEAM ONLY TO HAVE HIS LIFE ENDED SO SHORTLY AS HE WAS TRYING TO ESCAPE THE COUNTRY FALLING OFF OF A U.S. PLANE.

TALK TO US, GIVEN YOUR HISTORY AND COMMITMENT AND DEDICATION TO THIS MISSION, OF WHAT THAT IMAGE SAYS TO YOU.

THAT IMAGE, LIKE MANY OTHERS, IS CERTAINLY HEARTBREAKING.

I THINK IF THERE'S PERHAPS ONE THING THAT WE DID ACCOMPLISH IN THE LAST 20 YEARS -- AND I THINK THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT WE DID ACCOMPLISH -- WAS TO GIVE THE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN HOPE.

HOPE FOR STABILITY.

HOPE FOR PEACE.

HOPE FOR A BETTER AFGHANISTAN AND, YOU KNOW, AS I THINK ABOUT THE IMAGE THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED, I MEAN, I THINK WHAT YOU SEE IN THAT IS THIS YOUNG MAN CLINGING TO THAT HOPE RIGHT THERE.

THERE IS SOMETHING BETTER.

IN THIS CASE, OBVIOUSLY, VERY GRAPHIC AND TRAGIC FOR HIM ANDF.

BUT I THINK IT JUST UNDERSCORES THE HOPE THAT THE AFGHAN PEOPLE PUT INTO THIS WHOLE EFFORT OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS AND THE DESPERATION NOW AS WE SEE THIS COLLAPSE.

GENERAL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE ALL OF THESE YEARS TO OUR COUNTRY.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU.

> THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE WAITING AT THE AIRPORT IN KABUL DESPERATE FOR A CHANCE TO ESCAPE.

AMONG THEM, AN AFGHAN INTERPRETER WHO WORKED WITH U.S.

MARINES.

HERE'S THE STORY.

Reporter: ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS CROWD, THE ONLY WAY OUTL INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT.

FAMILIES, WOMEN AND CHILDREN, THOUSANDS RUSHED HERE TO BE EVACUATED AFTER THE TALIBAN'S SUDDEN TAKEOVER OF THE COUNTRY.

SOME ARE BEING TURNED AWAY, IT SEEMS, OTHERS ARE SETTLING IN FOR A LONG WAIT.

THE MAN WHO SHOT THIS VIDEO, HIS IDENTITY PROTECTED FOR FEAR OF RETRIBUTION.

HIS JOURNEY TO THE AIRPORT STARTED HERE TEN YEARS AGO.

THE HEART OF THE TALIBAN INSURGENCY.

HE SIDED WITH THE AMERICANS, A TRANSLATOR FOR THE U.S. MARINE CORPS. AT LEAST ONE OF THOSE KIS A FIGHTER.

WOULD YOU AGREE?

YES.

DEFINITELY.

DEFINITELY.

THE TALIBAN NEVER FOR GAVE HE'S BEEN ON THE ONE WITH HIS WIFE AND YOUNG CHILDREN FOR FIVE YEARS.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID TO CNN ONLY A FEW WEEKS AGO.

DENIED A SPECIAL IMMIGRANT VISA FOR THE U.S. TWICE, HE WAS RUNNING OUT OF OPTIONS WHEN A FORMER PLATOON MATE STEPPED IN.

I HAD A MOMENT WHERE I REALIZED HE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DO THIS BY HIMSELF AT ALL AND I FELT LIKE IF I DIDN'T SEE IT THROUGH, THERE WAS ZERO CHANCE OF HIM GETTING OUT.

Reporter: FROM HALF A WORLD AWAY, JIMMY APPLIED FOR A FEW VISA AND STARTED CROWD FUNDING, ANTICIPATING HARD TIMES AHEAD.

I WAS PRETTY BLOWN AWAY AT $2,000 FROM FRIENDS AND FAMILY, AND THEN THE CNN STORY AIRED AND IT -- 10, 13, 18.

HOW QUICKLY IT GREW HAS BEEN REALLY, REALLY COOL.

REALLY OVERWHELMING.

Reporter: BUT THE TALIBAN'S LIGHTNING ADVANCED FORCED DIFFICULT DECISIONS.

YOU 100% NEED TO GET TO KABUL, JIMMY WRITES.

HAVE YOU GOTTEN THE MONEY?

HOURS GO BY AND FINALLY THIS.

GETTING TO KABUL.

WALKING, RUNNING, HIDING.

WALKING IN MOUNTAINS AND FOREST.

HE AND HIS FAMILY TAKING EVERY RISK, SKIRTING TALIBAN CHECKPOINTS, INCLUDING THIS ONE AND RUSHING TO THE AIRPORT.

GAMBLING THAT THEIR VISA APPLICATION WOULD BE ENOUGH TO GET THEM TO SAFETY.

WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU TRIED TO GET TO THE GATE?

YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOMEONE IN THE AIRPORT COME FOR YOU AND TAKE YOU INSIDE.

Reporter: SO HE WAITS FOR AN EMAIL, CROWDS NOW LOOKING LIKE THIS OUTSIDE THE AIRPORT.

THE TALIBAN BIDING THEIR TIME AS THE U.S. IMPROVISES A MASS EVACUATION.S LIFE IS IN THE HANE AMERICANS FOR WHOM A DECADE AGO, HE RISKED HIS OWN.

THANK YOU FOR THAT IMPORTANT

> NOW TO A CRISIS DEEP WITHIN THE HEART OF THE UNITED STATES.

RACISM.

OUR NEXT GUEST, THE AUTHOR AND RETIRED NAVAL COMMANDER THEODORE JOHNSON ARGUES THAT RACISM IS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO AMERICA.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, HE LAYS OUT A BLUEPRINT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING.

YOUR BOOK, 'WHEN THE STARS BEGIN TO FALL,' IS BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN.

IT HAS BEAUTIFUL MEDITATIONS ABOUT CITIZENSHIP, ABOUT RACE AND CITIZENSHIP.

BUT IT ALSO HAS SOME -- I WOULD ARGUE SOME FAIRLY PROVOCATIVE THESIS, AND I WOULD LIKE TO GO THROUGH SOME OF THOSE WITH YOU.

YOU MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE COUNTRY HAS SURVIVED, YOU KNOW, THESE CENTURIES WITH RACISM VERY MUCH A PART OF AMERICAN LIFE, YOU ARGUE THAT RACISM CONTINUES TO BE AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO THIS COUNTRY.

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

ABSOLUTELY.

JUST HISTORICALLY, IF WE LOOK BACK, THE ONE TIME OUR NATION LITERALLY BROKE INTO TWO PIECES WAS OVER THE QUESTION OF RACE.

AND REALLY THE STATUS OF BLACK AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY.

THAT'S THE ONLY THING THAT'S EVER LITERALLY BROKEN US AND CAUSED 1 MILLION CAUSALITIES IN THE PROCESS.

BUT THE IDEA IN THE BOOK IS A LITTLE BIT MORE PHILOSOPHICAL THAN THAT.

WHAT I'M ARGUING IN THE BOOK IS THAT RACISM -- RACIAL INEQUALITY -- DOES NOT AND CANNOT COEXIST WITH THE IDEA THAT WE'RE ALL CREATED EQUAL AND A GOVERNMENT WHERE ITS POWERFUL IS DERIVED FROM THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED.

I'M SAYING THAT STRUCTURAL RACISM IS A THREAT TO THE IDEA OF AMERICA AND I SEPARATE THE IDEA OF AMERICA, THE PROMISE OF AMERICA, FROM THE NATION STATE, THE UNITED STATES.

SO AS YOU SAID, THE UNITED STATES HAS LIVED QUITE COMFORTABLY AT TIMES WITH RACISM, WITH SLAVERY, WITH JIM CROW, BUT THE IDEA OF AMERICA HAS NEVER BEEN COMFORTABLE WITH STRUCTURAL RACISM, WITH RACIAL INEQUALITY. RACIAL PROGRESS HAP, THE IDEA OF AMERICA IS ACHIEVED IS REALIZED IN FULL -- OR AT LEAST IN MORE CONTEXT.

BUT WHENEVER WE ALLOW RACISM TO PERPETUATE ITSELF IN OUR STRUCTURES, THEN THE IDEA OF AMERICA RECEDES.

EITHER WE CONFRONT THE PROBLEMS OR WE ADMIT THAT OUR COMMITMENT TO THE IDEALS OF AMERICA ARE BASICALLY SUPERFICIAL RHETORIC AND WE'RE MORE MARRIED TO COMMANDEERING AS MUCH OF AMERICA FOR OURSELVES INSTEAD OF TRYING TO CREATE A SOCIETY.

YOU SAY THIS IS HAPPENING EVEN AS THE COUNTRY HAS MOVED IN MANY WAYS TOWARDS ITS IDEALS.

THE COUNTRY HAS MOVED CLOSER TO ITS IDEALS.

YET IT REMAINS DEEPLY POLARIZED.

YOU SAY THE NATION WE HAVE AND A NATION WE WANT ARE SEPARATED BY A VAST SEA.

AND THAT WE WONDER ALOUD HOW A COUNTRY THAT HAS BECOME MORE ALIGNED TO ITS FOUNDING PRINCIPLES REMAINS CONFOUNDED BY RACIAL INJUSTICE AND CONFLICT AT EVERY TURN.

YOU SAY WE ARE HOPEFUL, YES, BUT WE ARE TIRED.

WHY TIRED?

YEAH.

SO WE ARE 245 YEARS OLD AS A NATION THIS YEAR.

AND FOR THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF OUR NATION'S HISTORY AND EVEN IN THE CENTURIES PRECEDING IT, THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE EXCLUDED FROM THE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF CITIZENSHIP THAT HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR INCLUSION.

LOOK, THE PROGRESS IS REAL.

I'M MUCH HAPPIER BEING A BLACK MAN IN AMERICA IN 2021 THAN IN 1921 AND CERTAINLY IN 1821.

SO PROGRESS IS UNDENIABLE.

BUT WE HAVE NOT YET ACHIEVED THIS KIND OF MULTIRACIAL SOCIETY THAT IS IN OUR IDEALS, THAT'S CAPTURED IN THE DECLARATION AND THE CONSTITUTION.

SO THE FIGHT CONTINUES TO CREATE THIS WORLD WHERE RACIAL HIERARCHY DOESN'T EXIST, WHERE STRUCTURAL RACISM DOESN'T INFLUENCE THE PAST THAT PEOPLE TAKE IN OUR COUNTRY, THAT DOESN'T MAKE THE CLIMB TO THE AMERICAN DREAM STEEPER FOR SOME GROUPS THAN OTHERS.

SO THE FIGHT CONTINUES WHICH MEANS MANY OF US ARE TIRED OF IT.

LOOK, WE DRAW INSPIRATION FROM THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE US.

IF THOSE WHO WERE ENSLAVED COULD SOMEHOW MANAGE TO KEEP HOPE AND OPTIMISM AND FAITH ALIVE AND HOPES THAT MAYBE THEIR CHILDREN OR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN WOULD BE EMANCIPATED AND BE FULLY EMBRACED AS AMERICANS, CERTAINLY TODAY WE CAN HOLD ON TO THE SAME FAITH AND OPTIMISM IN HOPES THAT WE CAN LEAVE BEHIND A BETTER COUNTRY THAN THE ONE WE INHERITED.

ONE OF THE POINTS THAT YOU MAKE THOUGH IS THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT IS A NOVEL UNDERTAKING.

YOU QUOTE THE THEORIST DANIEL ALAN, THE WORLD HAS NEVER BUILT A MULTIPLE ETHNIC DEMOCRACY IN WHICH NO PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP IS IN THE MAJORITY AND WHERE POLITICAL EQUALITY, SOCIAL EQUALITY AND ECONOMIES THATHIEV.

HAVING SAID THAT, WHY DO YOU THINK IT CAN BE?

WHEN ENSLAVED BACK PEOPLE ARE IN THE COUNTRY, IF SOMEONE TOLD THEM, ONE DAY THERE WOULD BE A CIVIL WAR AND THE RESULTS OF THIS WILL BE THE ABOLISHMENT OF SLAVERY, MANY OF THEM WOULD SAY, I DON'T BELIEVE THE COUNTRY HAS IT IN THEM.

AS BLACK FOLKS ARE BEING LYNCHED IN THE SOUTH, SOME OF THEM SAID, ONE DAY THERE WILL BE A BLACK PRESIDENT IN THIS COUNTRY, THEY WOULD SAY, I DON'T THINK WE CAN DO IT.

AND SO THE PATH THAT I HOPE TO ILLUMINATE IN THIS BOOK IS THAT THERE IS A WAY FORWARD.

NOW, WHETHER WE ARE BIG ENOUGH PEOPLE, WHETHER WE ARE COURAGEOUS ENOUGH, COMMITTED ENOUGH TO THE CAUSE, TO CREATE THE NATION OF OUR IDEALS IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION AND ONE THAT WE WILL -- WE MUST ANSWER.

WHAT'S THE WAY FORWARD?

LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

AS I SAID, YOUR BOOK ADDRESSES THEMES THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE UNDERTAKEN BEFORE.

SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE UNDERTAKEN THIS QUESTION OF WHAT DOES CITIZENSHIP MEAN IN A COUNTRY IN WHICH EQUAL RIGHTS ARE NOT OUR PROMISE BUT NOT DELIVERED.

ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS YOU MAKE IS THAT IT REQUIRES AN CRIME OF THE STATE.RACISM IS A

RIGHT.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

THE BASIC ARGUMENT HERE IS THAT IF WE TRY TO MAKE THE UNITED STATES LIVE UP TO THE IDEALS OF AMERICA, THIS PROMISE OF AMERICA, BY ONLY MAKING MORAL CLAIMS, BY CLAIMING OUR INHERENT RIGHT TO EQUALITY, BY DEMANDING FULL ACCESS TO ALL OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS BASED ON A MORAL BASIS, NATION STATES ARE NOT MOVED BY MORAL CLAIMS.

EXCEPT WHEN THEY'RE ALIGNED TO THE NATIONAL INTERESTS.

NATION STATES ARE GOVERNED BY THEIR INTERESTS, NOT BY SOME ABSOLUTE SENSE OF GOODNESS OR MORALITY.

AND SO WHEN WE ALLOW RACISM TO PERPETUATE ITSELF IN OUR STRUCTURES THE WAY SOCIETY IS BUILT, THE PUBLIC POLICY THAT IS PASSED AND IMPLEMENTED, THEN IT IS THE FAULT OF THE NATION STATES THAT WE STILL SEE RACIAL INEQUALITY RESULTING FROM THE WAY OUR SOCIETY IS STRUCTURED.

IT'S NOT WHITE PEOPLE BEING MEAN TO BLACK PEOPLE THAT CAUSES THE WEALTH GAP.

IT IS WE HAVE A SOCIETY STRUCTURED IN SUCH A WAY THAT INEQUALITY IS THE PRODUCT OF THOSE STRUCTURES AND THAT'S THE FAULT OF THE STATE FOR NOT BEING ACTIVE ENOUGH IN ITS PUBLIC POLICY TO ADDRESS SUCH STRUCTURES SO THAT THEY CREATE OUTCOMES THAT LIVE UP TO OUR IDEALS ABOUT THIS INHERENT INEQUALITY.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP, IN THE CONTEXT OF ALL THE THINGS YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

WHEN YOU'RE ABLE TO WEAPONIZE RACIAL DIVERSITY AND STOKE FEARS OF OTHER GROUPS IN ORDER TO -- BECAUSE OF POLITICAL EXPEDIENCE, IN ORDER TO HOLD ON AND GET POLITICAL POWER, THEN NOT ONLY ARE YOU DIVIDING THE COUNTRY, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY BEHAVING IN AN UN-AMERICAN WAY IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE PRINCIPLES SUBSCRIBED IN OUR FOUNDING WHAT DONALD TRUMP WAS ABLE TO DO WAS GET PEOPLE TO STOP FOCUSING ON THE AMERICA OF PRINCIPLE, EQUALITY, LIBERTY, FREEDOM, AND GET PEOPLE TO FOCUS ON THE IDEA THAT THEIR GROUP WAS LOSING THEIR PLACE IN AMERICA AND TRIGGER THOSE ANXIETIES AND FEARS IN ORDER TO HAVE CERTAIN FOLKS OKAY WITH THE OPPRESSION OF OTHER FOLKS BECAUSE THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY THE AMERICA OF THEIR GRANDPARENTS' GENERATION COULD BE SECURED.

THIS IS NOT TRUE.

IT'S A FALSE EQUIVALENCY, BUT IT IS EFFECTIVE POLITICS FOR THOSE WHO AREN'T INTERESTED IN MAKING AMERICA A BETTER VERSION OF ITSELF.

AMONG THE FOUNDING LEADERS OF THE COUNTRY, THIS DEBATE WAS HAD ABOUT WHETHER THIS COUNTRY COULD BE A TRULY DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY AND MAINTAIN SLAVERY AND THE DECISION WAS, YEAH, IT CAN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE IN THE CURRENT ERA WILL DISAGREE?

WELL, SO, THE HILL IS STEEP.

THIS IS NOT AN EASY TASK.

TWO THINGS HAVE TO HAPPEN.

WHEN THE FOUNDING FATHERS CREATED THIS NATION AND DECIDED THAT THE UNION -- ESTABLISHING THE UNION WAS MORE IMPORTANT THAN GETTING RID OF SLAVERY, THEY MADE A NATIONAL INTEREST DECISION WHICH GOES BACK TO THE EARLIER PART IN OUR CONVERSATION.

90 YEARS LATER, THEY DECIDED THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP THE UNION WAS TO ABOLISH SLAVERY.

SLAVERY DIDN'T CHANGE IN THOSE 90 YEARS, BUT THE INTEREST OF THE NATION DID SUCH THAT KEEPING THE UNION WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, KEEPING SLAVERY, HELP ITS CREATION, GETTING RID OF SLAVERY, HELPED IT IN ITS REUNIFICATION.

I COULD GO THROUGH EXAMPLES ABOUT HOW MARRYING THE NATIONAL INTEREST TO THE RACIALLY CORRECT THING TO DO LEADS TO GREAT PROBLEM.

THE WAY FORWARD, TWO THINGS HAVE TO HAPPEN.

FIRST, IS WE HAVE TO SHOW THE WAYS THAT RACIAL INEQUALITY HARM THE NATIONAL INTEREST.

WE DON'T NEED WARS.

CERTAINLY WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER GLOBAL PANDEMIC BECAUSE BOTH HAVE PROVEN NOT TO BE THE UNIFYING THING THAT A LOT OF FOLKS THINK THEY ARE.

BUT WE DO NEED A SET OF LEADERS, LOCAL UP THROUGH NATIONAL, TO MAKE THE CONNECTION BETWEEN RACIAL INEQUALITY AND THE NATIONAL INTEREST.

THE SECOND THING IS, WE DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER.

IF YOU LOOK AT PEOPLE'S SOCIAL CIRCLES, THEIR HO MONOJA NOUS.

SO WE DON'T TALK TO ONE ANOTHER.

WHEN SOMEONE SHOWS UP AND SAYS S THE REASON YOUR TAXES ARE SO HIGH.

THEY'RE THE REASON THEY DON'T HAVE A JOB.

THEY'RE THE REASON WHY THERE'S TERRORISM HAPPENING IN THE WORLD, ET CETERA, AND YOU DON'T KNOW PEOPLE FROM THAT GROUP, IT'S HARD TO BE RESILIENT TO THE DEVICES OF APPEALS BECAUSE YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SOMEONE OR SOMETHING TO BLAME FOR WHY THE AMERICAN PROMISE HASN'T BEEN EXTENDED TO YOU, WHY THE AMERICAN DREAM IS HARD FOR YOU TO REACH.

THE ONE THING WE CAN DO TODAY, ALL OF US AND THIS IS SOMETHING BLACK FOLKS HAVE BEEN DOING SINCE THE BEGINNING, IS GET OUT OF OUR SOCIAL CIRCLES AND INTERACT WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE UNLIKE US.

WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO INTERACT SOCIALLY IF WE'RE EVER GOING TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO ESTABLISH SOME KIND OF MULTIRACIAL SOLIDARITY.

YOU TALK A LOT IN THE BOOK, AND MOST PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW THE NEWS SEE THE SAME THINGS THAT YOU DO, A VERY POLARIZED DIVISION IN THIS COUNTRY ISN'T JUST ABOUT RACE.

WE'RE SEEING CONFRONTATIONS OVER MASK MANDATES.

WE'RE SEEING CONFRONTATIONS OVER GETTING A VACCINE.

HOW DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN

LOOK, A LOT OF POLITICAL SCIENTISTS HAVE SPENT TIME SHOWING ALL OF THE FRACTURES IN OUR DEMOCRACY THAT HAVE OCCURRED OVER THE LAST DECADE-PLUS.

SOME WOULD SAY HYPERPARTISANSHIP IS THE THING THAT'S TEARING US APART.

THE REAL ISSUE IS ECONOMIC INEQUALITY.

THE HAVES HAVE SO MUCH, WHILE THE HAVE NOTES HAVE GAINED NOTHING.

IF WE DON'T ADDRESS THIS ECONOMIC INEQUALITY, THE NATION WILL BREAK APART, WE CAN LOOK AT THE ANTITRUST ERA TO SHOW THE DANGERS OF THE MEGA RICH HAVING TOO MUCH POWER IN A COUNTRY.

AND YET A THIRD GROUP WOULD SAY, THE ISSUE IS REALLY SORT OF THIS UNDEMOCRATIC POPULISM WHERE POPULAR FIGURES AND DEMAGOGUES GET TO COMMANDEER OUR SYSTEMS OF JUSTICE TO DO THINGS THAT ARE UNDEMOCRATIC AND UNJUST.

AND THAT IS COULD ALSO BE A FRACTURE.

IF YOU DISSECT ALL OF THOSE THREE THINGS, YOU WILL FIND RACIAL INEQUALITY AT THE HEART.

IF WE SOLVE ECONOMIC INEQUALITY TOMORROW, RACISM WILL CREATE A NATION WHERE EQUALITY DOES NOT EXIST.

IF WE GET RID OF THE POPULOUS DEMAGOGUES, RACISM WILL STILL EXIST.

IF WE ADDRESS HYPERPARTISANSHIP AND HAVE MORE -- RACISM WILL STILL EXIST AND WE DON'T HAVE TO GUESS.

WE HAVE SEEN THESE THINGS RISE AND SORT OF RECEDE IN OUR NATION'S HISTORY.

AND THE THING THAT HAS REMAINED IS RACIAL INEQUALITY RESULTING FROM BAD PUBLIC POLICY AND GOOD IN THIS WAY, RACIAL INEQUALITY, STRUCTURAL RACISM IS THE THING THAT IF WE CAN FIGURE THAT OUT, WE HAVE A CHANCE OF ADDRESSING HYPERPARTISANSHIP, SOME OF THESE LIBERAL TENDENCIES.

IF WE LEAVE RACISM UNATTENDED, IT WILL BE THE THING THAT HARMS THE COUNTRY IN WAYS THAT NO OTHER SET OF POLICY PRESCRIPTIONS WILL SOLVE.

IF YOU WERE TO PRESENT YOUR BOOK TO YOUR FORMER COLLEAGUES IN THE MILITARY, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT THEY WOULD RECEIVE IT?

ON THE ONE HAND, WE TALK ABOUT THE MILITARY BEING THE MOST SUCCESSFULLY INTEGRATED INSTITUTION IN AMERICA.

ON THE OTHER HAND WE SEE THESE ISSUES HAVING TO SIT IN THE MILITARY AND SOME WAYS DO PERSIST.

WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON WHETHER YOUR COLLEAGUES IN THE MILITARY SEE THIS THE WAY YOU DO?

A FEW THINGS HERE.

ONE IS, WHEN GENERAL MILLEY WAS QUESTIONED JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY, HE SAYS --

WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF.

WHO IS WHITE.

WHO IS WHITE.

HE SAID WHAT'S SO WRONG WITH WANTING TO UNDERSTAND THE NATION WE'RE DEFENDING?

AND THIS BOOK IS THAT.

IT IS A PATRIOTIC LOOK AT THE CHALLENGE THAT STRUCTURAL RACISM PRESENTS TO THE EXISTENCE OF THE AMERICAN IDEA.

IF YOU CAN'T GET ON BOARD WITH THAT IN THE MILITARY, WANTING TO UNDERSTAND YOUR COUNTRY THAT YOU'RE DEFENDING AND RECOGNIZING THAT THERE'S MUCH TO VALUE IN THIS NATION, I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU CAN BE REACHED BY THE VAST MAJORITY OF FOLKS.

THERE'S A QUOTE FROM A BRITISH PHILOSOPHER OR MILITARY STRATEGIST THAT SAYS, THE NATION THAT WILL INSIST ON DIVIDING ITS THINKING MEN AND FIGHTING MEN WILL FIND ITS THINKING DONE BY COWARDS AND FIGHTING DONE BY FOOLS.

ALL OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE FOUGHT FOR IN THE CONSTITUTION WE'VE MADE TREMENDOUS PROGRESS ON EXTENDING RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES TO MORE PEOPLE.

BUT WE HAVE NOT CREATED THE MORE PERFECT UNION YET, THAT WE HAVE NOT CLOSED THE GAP BETWEEN WHO WE SAY WE ARE AND WHO WE PROFESS TO BE.

YOU SAY IN THE BOOK, SORT OF ON THE HOPEFUL SIDE OF THE LEDGER, THAT WE ALL WANT THE SAME THINGS.

AND YOU CITE A NUMBER OF DATA POINTS TO SUPPORT THAT IDEA.

BUT DO WE REALLY?

DO WE REALLY ALL WANT THE SAME THING?

IF SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST INVESTED IN RACIAL HIERARCHY BECAUSE IT ADVANTAGES THEM.

THIS IS A REAL QUESTION.

AND I WOULD SAY THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS -- THIS IS BASED ON POLLING, ET CETERA.

I THINK IF THERE'S SOMETHING THERE, IF YOU ASK DO YOU BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY, DO YOU BELIEVE IN EQUALITY, FREEDOM, LIBERTY, PROSPERITY, ET CETERA, MOST AMERICANS WOULD SAY YES TO THAT QUESTION.

SO ON THE FIRST PRINCIPLES OF OUR NATION, THESE THINGS, AGAIN, CAPTURED IN OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS, MOST AMERICANS AGREE, YES, I WANT THIS MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY.D THEN WHEN YOU TAKE T STEP AND SAY, HERE'S WHAT IT'S GOING TO COST TO GET THIS THING YOU SAY YOU WANT, THAT'S WHEN YOU GET A LOT OF PEOPLE BAILING OUT BECAUSE THEY'RE REALIZING, OH, I HAVE TO SACRIFICE SOMETHING, SOMETHING MATERIAL IN ORDER TO REALIZE THIS MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY OF OUR DREAMS?

I DON'T KNOW HOW COMMITTED I AM TO IT ANYMORE.

BUT THEY DON'T SAY THAT OUT LOUD.

THE QUESTION BEFORE THE COUNTRY IS, DO WE REALLY WANT DEMOCRACY?

THE QUESTION BEFORE THE COUNTRY IS, DO WE REALLY BELIEVE IN THE IDEA, THE PROMISE OF AMERICAN?

IF WE DON'T, THEN WE NEED TO SAY SO EXPLICITLY AND SAY WE BELIEVE THAT USING VIOLENCE TO KEEP THE RACIAL VIOLENCE IS A GOOD THING, AND THEN WE WILL HAVE A UNITED STATES BUT IT IS ONE THAT IS A TERRIBLE VERSION OF WHO WE ARE TODAY AND ONE THAT IS REMINISCENT OF THE PEOPLE WE USED TO BE, THAT WE DECIDED WE NO LONGER WANTED TO BE CENTURIES AGO.

THERE'S NO SHORTCUT TO UTOPIA.

THE MORE PERFECT UNION IS GOING TO REQUIRE MORE PERFECT PEOPLE AND WE HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER WE'RE UP TO THE TASK OR NOT.

YOUR LATEST BOOK IS CALLED 'WHEN THE STARS BEGIN TO FALL.'G WITH US TODAY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

> A LOT TO LOSE IF AMERICANS CAN'T LIVE UP TO THE PROMISE OF OUR NATION.

BUT SO MUCH TO GAIN IF WE CAN.

AND THAT IS IT FOR THE PROGRAM YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & CO.' ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪

> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MAD- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

FAMILY.RYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

KU AND PATRICIA EWING, COMMITTES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> YOU'RE WATCHING PBS.