August 31, 2021

♪♪♪

> HELLO, EVERYONE.

AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

> THE TALIBAN RISE AGAIN.

WHAT WILL THEY IMPOSE THIS TIME?

I ASK EXPERT ASHLEY JACKSON AND ROBERT GRINE.

THEN --

WE ARE HEADING TO THE AIRPORT.

HOPE TO MAKE IT AND SURVIVE.

ONE OF THE LAST ESCAPES.

WE FOLLOW A FORMER INTERPRETER'S DANGEROUS AND EMOTIONAL JOURNEY FROM AFGHANISTAN TO AMERICA.

PLUS, THE CURTAIN IS COMING DOWN ON ANGELA MERKEL'S LONG I TALKED TO HER POTENTIAL SUCCESSOR.

> ALSO AHEAD --

EVENTUALLY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GO, I AM NOT GOING TO PAY THIS EXTRA MONEY BECAUSE YOU MADE THE CHOICE NOT TO GET VACCINATED.

THE DOLLARS AND CENTS OF GETTING VACCINATED.

PERSONAL FINANCE GURU TALKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT THE FINANCIAL COST OF SKIPPING THE ♪♪♪

> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.

THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

KU AND PATRICIA EWING, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCE.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

EVERYONE.ME TO THE PROGRAM I'M CHRISTIANA AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE LAST AMERICAN FLIGHT OUT OF KABUL MARKS THE SECOND TIME IN AFGHAN INSURGENTS HAVE DEFEATED A SUPER POWER.

FIRST THE SOVIET UNION AND NOW THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

SO WHAT IS NEXT FOR A NATION THAT HAS DRAWN SO MUCH OF AMERICA'S BLOOD AND TREASURE, ITS STRATEGIC AND SECURITY CONCERNS?

IS THE WAR ACTUALLY OVER?

WILL THE VICTORIOUS TALIBAN IMPOSE A RADICAL ISLAMIST CALIPHATE DESPITE THEIR PROMISES?

WELL, THIS IS THEIR MESSAGE NOW.

Translator: WE HAVE A MESSAGE FOR ANY POSSIBLE INVADER.

THAT ANYONE WHO LOOKS TO AFGHANISTAN WITH BAD INTENTION, THEY WILL FACE WHAT THE UNITED STATES HAS FACED TODAY.

AND THEY WASTED NO TIME TAKING OVER THE AIRPORT.

EVER AIRLIFT.WORLD'S BIGGEST FIGHTERS ENTERING THE HANGER WEARING WESTERN LOOKING FATIGUES AND INSPECTING U.S. LOOKING EQUIPMENT.

HERE TO DISCUSS ARE ASHLEY JACKSON.

SHE IS A CODIRECTOR AT THE CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF ARMED GROUPS, AND ROBERT GRENE SERVED AS CIA CHIEF OF PAKISTAN AND AFGHANISTAN FROM 1999 TO 2002 DURING THE RISE OF THE TALIBAN AND al-QAEDA.

ROBERT, LET ME START WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU WERE THERE ON THE GROUND WHEN 9/11 HAPPENED.

WHAT IS TOP OF MIND FOR YOU AS YOU WITNESSED WHAT WE JUST SAID, TOO SUPER POWERS DEFEATED BY AN INSURGENCY IN ABOUT 32 YEARS AND THE AMERICAN PLACE IN THAT?

WHAT I THINK IS THE EIGHT HOURS OF DISCUSSION I HAD OVER TWO DAYWISE THE NUMBER TWO FIGURE IN THE TALIBAN AT THAT TIME WHERE I EXPLAINED TO HIM UNLESS HE HANDED OVER bin LADEN AND DISMANTLED al-QAEDA THAT THE AMERICANS WERE GOING TO COME AND HE WAS GOING TO PAY A VERY SERIOUS PRICE.

HE PREDICTED THAT THE TIME IF WE DID THAT WE WOULD MEET THE SAME FATE AS THE SOVIETS.

AND I THINK OVERALL I THINK HE WAS MAYBE CLOSER TO BEING RIGHT CERTAINLY THAN I WAS.

IT REALLY IS EXTRAORDINARY, ACTUALLY, TO PUT IT IN THAT FRAME BECAUSE I GUESS I WANT TO ASK YOU HAVING SPENT SO MUCH TIME THERE, HAVING SEEN SO MUCH OF THE MILITARY COMPONENT, SPENT SO MUCH TIME THERE, THE NGOs, WHAT HAS BEEN ACHIEVED WOULD YOU SAY, ROBERT?

I THINK THE GREATEST ACHIEVEMENTS HAVE BEEN SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC.

I MEAN THE AFGHANISTAN OF TODAY BEARS FORTUNATELY RELATIVELY LITTLE RESEMBLANCE TO THE AFGHANISTAN OF 2001 IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, IN TERMS OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT, IN TERMS OF LIBERTIES FOR WOMEN, EDUCATION OVERALL AND INFANT MORTALITY.

YOU GO DOWN THE LIST AND THERE HAS BEEN TREMENDOUS PROGRESS BOTH IN SOME CASE AND PERHAPS IN SPITE OF THE U.S. AND THE INTERNATIONAL INVOLVEMENT THERE.

SO ASHLEY, YOU KNOW THAT FIRST-HAND BECAUSE YOU SPENT MANY YEARS ACTUALLY CONVERSING, INTERVIEWING, TALKING WITH THE TALIBAN IN THE PARTS THEY HELD, YOU KNOW, EVEN THROUGHOUT THE LAST 20 YEARS.

DO YOU BELIEVE WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, THAT THEY WILL BE SOMEHOW, SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT?

OR ALL THESE THINGS ROBERT HAVE SAID, ALL THE THINGS WE'VE REPORTED, ARE THEY AT RISK RIGHT NOW PARTICULARLY WITH THE WOMEN, YOU KNOW, WITH THE FREEDOMS THAT HAVE BEEN GAINED OVER THE LAST TWO DECADES?

WELL, THERE'S NO UP AND DOWN ANSWER TO THAT.

I THINK WE'VE HEARD THE TALIBAN LEADERSHIP, YOU KNOW, MAKEOVERTURES SAYING THAT GIRLS.

THERE HAVE ALSO BEEN CONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS ABOUT THE RESTRICTIONS THAT WILL BE PLACED ON WOMEN.

THE MOVEMENT ITSELF I THINK IS SAVVIER THAN IT WAS IN THE 1990s.

THEY KNOW HOW TO COMMUNICATE AND HOW TO DEAL WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, BUT THEY'RE ALSO WALK INTO AN AFGHANISTAN AS ROBERT SAID THAT HAS SCHOOLS AND CLINICS AND A LEVEL OF DEVELOPMENT AND INDUSTRY AND ECONOMY THAT, YOU KNOW, SIMPLY WASN'T THERE IN THE 1990s AND THE TALIBAN DOESN'T WANT TO LOSE THAT.

THEY WANT INTERNATIONAL LEGITIMACY.

THEY BASICALLY WANT TO TAKE OVER AND BENEFIT FROM THE GAINS OF THE INTERNATIONAL INTERVENTION AND IMPOSE THEIR OWN KIND OF STATE, AND THAT'S GOING TO BE TOUGH TO DO BECAUSE THE AFGHAN INTERNATIONAL BUDGET IS 80% DEPENDENT ON INTERNATIONAL AID.

IF THEY WANT THAT AID THEY WILL HAVE TO MAKE SOME SORTS OF CONCESSIONS.

ROBERT, FROM WHAT YOU KNOW AND OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A LOT OF INTERNAL WRANGLING BETWEEN THE VARIOUS GENERATIONS AND ITERATIONS OF TALIBAN RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU THINK THEY ARE THE TYPE TO RECOGNIZE THIS FACT IF THEY WANT TO ACTUALLY RUN THIS COUNTRY, WHATEVER IT LOOKS LIKE, THEY HAVE TO MAKE CONCESSIONS NOW BEING DEMANDED BY THE UNITED STATES, BY EUROPE AND THE OTHERS?

WELL, I SUSPECT AND I HOPE THEY'D BE WILLING TO MAKE CERTAIN CONCESSIONS, BUT I SEE NO REASON TO BELIEVE THEY'RE GOING TO COMPROMISE THEIR CORE BELIEFS.

AND SO WITH REGARD TO THE ROLE OF WOMEN IN SOCIETY, THE ROLE OF SHARIA, ISLAMIC LAW, I DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BE VERY FLEXIBLE, AND I THINK WE NEED TO PREPARE OURSELVES FOR THAT.

KNOWING TO SOME DEGREE THEY'RE GOING TO DISAPPOINT US, SO TO SPEAK.

I THINK WE NEED TO BE VERY CLEAR WHAT ARE THE RED LINES, WHAT ARE THE BOTTOM LINES FOR US, NUMBER ONE.

AND NUMBER TWO, I'D VERY MUCH AGREE WITH ASHLEY WE MUST TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT POSSIBLE NOT ALLOW OUR POLITICAL AIMS AND DESIRES IN AFGHANISTAN BE PLACED ON THE BACKS OF THE MASS OF THE AFGHAN PEOPLE, THAT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER WE NEED TO FIND SOME WAY AT LEAST TO PROVIDE SOME LEVEL OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE TO THEM.

WELL, ASHLEY, WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE THEN?

WHO DOES THAT?

IS IT THE U.N., NGOs, USAID?

WHO ACTUALLY TAKES CARE OF THE TERRIBLE AND STILL GRINDING POVERTY AND LACK AMONGST SO MANY OF, I THINK AS YOU SAID, 39 AND A HALF MILLION PEOPLE THERE?

THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

IT'S SOME MIXTURE OF ALL OF THE ABOVE.

THE FACT IS THE TALIBAN ARE NOW OR WILL BE WHEN THEY ANNOUNCE A GOVERNMENT, THEY WILL BE THE GOVERNMENT.

THEY WILL BE THE ONES RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WELFARE OF AFGHANS.

BUT SINCE 2001 THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS HELPED ESTABLISH AND SUSTAIN A STATE HEAVILY DEPENDENT ON INTERNATIONAL AID.

YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING FROM TEACHERS SALARIES TO THE MEDICINE AND HEALTH CLINICS IS PAID FOR BY U.S. AND OTHER GOVERNMENTS.

AND TO SIMPLY CUT THAT OFF I THINK WOULD BE A CRUELTY TO EVEN A HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE.

SO WHAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS TO DO NOW IS REALLY THINK THROUGH, OKAY, WHAT SYSTEMS ARE THERE TO CHANNEL THE MONEY TO KEEP THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH GOING, TO DRAW LINES AND THAT FUNDING AND THOSE ACTIVITIES WHICH THE CLINICS ARE PART OF THE GOVERNMENT AND SO ARE THE SCHOOLS, THAT YOU CAN'T SHUT THEM DOWN, THAT YOU PAID FOR GIRLS EDUCATION FOR 20 YEARS AND, YOU KNOW, CUTTING THAT FUNDING, HALTING THAT FUNDING AS THE THEY'VE ALREADY DONE BASICALLY SHUTS GIRL SCHOOLS BEFORE THE TALIBAN HAS A CHANCE TO.

SO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS TO WORK OUT MODALITIES BY WHICH IT WILL CONTINUE TO SUSTAIN SOME OF THE VERY, VERY BASIC SERVICES.

AND ALSO I THINK, YOU KNOW, FRANKLY THE TALIBAN WILL WANT TO SHOW IT CAN BE SELF-SUFFICIENT, IT CAN RAISE MONEY AND SO WE HAVE TO SEE HOW THIS PLAYS OUT.

BUT IT REALLY IS ON THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO MAKE SURE AS ROBERT SAID AFGHANS DON'T SUFFER ON THE BACK OF THIS.

SO, ROBERT, WHAT DOES ACTUALLY MATTER THEN FOR THE UNITED STATES?

IS IT, YOU KNOW, THE SITUATION OF THE AFGHAN PEOPLE, OR IS IT FOR THE UNITED STATES AND I GUESS EUROPE AND OTHERS IN THE REGION TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE A SECURE AFGHANISTAN, ONE THAT DOES NOT SERVE AS A LAUNCHING PAD TO TERRORIST ATTACKS, ONE THAT WILL NOT BE A SAFE HAVEN FOR, YOU KNOW, RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS.

WHICH DO YOU THINK THE U.S. IS MOST -- YOU KNOW, WANTS TO BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE THE MOST?

WELL, I THINK THE BOTTOM LINE IS TERRORISM.

JUST AS WE SAID TO THE TALIBAN BACK IN 2001 THERE MUST BE A GOVERNMENT, MUST BE A POLITICAL DISPENSATION IN AFGHANISTAN WHICH IS WILLING TO DENY THE TERRITORY TO CONTROL THE INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST, AND IF IT IS YOU, THE TALIBAN WILLING TO DO THAT, WE'RE QUITE WILLING TO LIVE WITH YOU AS A GOVERNMENT OTHERWISE WE'RE GOING TO DO OUR BEST TO TRY TO REPLACE YOU.

WELL, WE SPENT 20 YEARS TRYING TO REPLACE THEM.

THAT HASN'T GONE VERY WELL.

WE COULD GET INTO A LONG DISCUSSION AS TO WHETHER THE RECENT DECISIONS BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WERE CORRECT OR NOT.

IN ANY CASE THAT'S PRECISELY THE QUESTION WE'RE POSING TO THE TALIBAN NOW, AND AS THEN -- AGAIN, I THINK WE NEED TO GIVE THEM EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO DISAPPOINT US.

BUT IF I HAD TO GUESS RIGHT NOW I DO NOT THINK WE HAVE IT WITHIN THEMSELVES TO ACTUALLY CONTROL INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST GROUPS, AND OF COURSE THERE ARE MANY MORE OF THEM, AND ESSENTIALLY IT WAS NOW IN 2001 AND THIS IS A CONCERN NOT JUST FOR THE UNITED STATES, NOT JUST FOR NATO BUT REALLY FOR THE ENTIRE REGION AND ESPECIALLY PAKISTAN BECAUSE THE PAKISTANI TALIBAN HAS A SAFE HAVEN RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK.

AND WE'VE ALREADY SEEN THAT ACTUALLY AFGHANISTAN HAS BEEN ABLE TO HAVE A TERRORIST ATTACK IN THE MIDST OF THIS ENTIRE RETREAT AROUND THE AIRPORT, SO WE HAVE ISIS-K, WHICH SEEMED TO BE THRILLED TO BITS THEY'RE THE NEW TALIBAN AND ARE SHOWING, YOU KNOW, ISLAMISTS AROUND THE WORLD THEY WILL TAKE THE PLACE OF THE TALIBAN IN TERMS OF SHARIA, THE ISIS KIND OF CALIPHATE LOGIC THAT THEY HAD, AND IT APPEARS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO FAR MORE THIS OUT TO THE COUNTER TERRORISM, SO HOW REALISTIC IS OVER THE HORIZON?

AND HOW DANGEROUS IS THIS NOT NEW BUT SHOWING ITSELF ISIS-K GROUP.

I THINK IT DEPENDS VERY MUCH ON THE EXTENT TO WHICH TERRORIST GROUPS OTHER THAN ISIS-K, LET'S LEAVE THAT ASIDE FOR A MOMENT, TERRORIST GROUPS ESPECIALLY al-QAEDA, PAKISTANI TALIBAN, ETIM FOCUS ODON CHINA AND OTHERS IS FOCUSED IN A WAY THAT PERMITS THEM TO LAUNCH OPERATIONS IN THE REGION AND FURTHER AFIELD.

AS WE SEE THAT PROBLEM INCREASE, AS WE MAY WELL, I THINK WE'LL FIND OVER THE HORIZON AS A PRACTICE RIGHT NOW WILL NOT BE ADEQUATE, AND I THINK WE'LL BE SCRAMBLING TO FIND BASES IN THE REGION.

WITH REGARD TO ISIS-K, YES, AS WE ALL KNOW THEY ARE SWORN ENEMIES OF THE TALIBAN.

THEY DON'T HAVE ANYWHERE NEAR THE STRENGTH THE TALIBAN HAD OR HAS RIGHT NOW.

NONETHELESS THEY COULD CREATE SOME SERIOUS PROBLEMS FOR THE TALIBAN PARTICULARLY IN THE AREAS WHERE THEY ARE STRONGEST.

ASHLEY, I WANT TO GET BACK TO THE PEOPLE BECAUSE ONE OF THE TROPES, AND I'VE CERTAINLY COVERED THIS AND I BELIEVE IT'S NOT CORRECT.

ONE OF THE TROPES OF THE AFGHAN PEOPLE HAS BEEN, OH, THEY WEREN'T READY FOR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE, FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY, PROGRESS, WOMENS RIGHTS.

CAN YOU TELL PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE WATCHING JUST HOW MUCH INVESTMENT THE AFGHAN PEOPLE DID PUT IN THEIR LIBERATION FROM THE TALIBAN SOME 21 YEARS AGO, 20 YEARS AGO?

I THINK IT'S DIFFICULT TO MAKE GENERALIZATIONS ABOUT A COUNTRY AND PEOPLE AS DIVERSE AS AFGHANISTAN AT ONE END OF THE SPECTRUM YOU HAD ASHRAF GHANI AND MORE LIBERAL TECHNOCRATTIC ELITES THAT RULED THE COUNTRY UNTIL VERY RECENTLY.

AND AT THE OTHER END OF THE SPECTRUM YOU HAVE THE TALIBAN.

AND SO AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN.

BUT I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER OF COMMON VALUES.

AND EVEN TALKING TO PEOPLE IN MORE CONSERVATIVE AREAS OF THE COUNTRY LIVING UNDER TALIBAN CONTROL, PEOPLE HAVE A DESIRE FOR EDUCATION.

THEY HAVE A DESIRE FOR PROGRESS.

EVERYONE ON ALL SIDES OF THE CONFLICT, AND I'VE DONE HUNDRED OF INTERVIEWS OVER THE YEARS OF TALIBAN FIGHTERS, WITH MIDWIVES, YOU KNOW, WITH EVERY SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION PRACTICALLY.

THEY WANT PEACE.

THEY'RE EXHAUSTED, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'VE SEEN WITH THE TALIBANS SWEEP THROUGH THE COUNTRY WITH A LOT OF THE ATTITUDE NOW, WITH THE PANIC ABOUT FLEEING.

NO ONE WANTS ANOTHER CIVIL WAR.

NO ONE WANTS THIS CONFLICT TO CONTINUE.

AND I THINK THIS WAS FOR A LOT OF MY FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES ON THE GROUND ABOUT THE ATTACK ON THE AIRPORT, IT WAS BEYOND THE JUST THE CRUELTY OF IT, PEOPLE FELT EVEN IF THEY VIOLENTLY OPPOSED THE TALIBAN IN THEIR HEARTS, OKAY, THE WAR IS OVER NOW, THE TALIBAN HAVE TAKEN KABUL AND THERE'LL BE NO MORE VIOLENCE, THERE WON'T BE ANYMORE SUICIDE ATTACKS, AND IMMEDIATELY THAT WAS PROVED WRONG.

BROADLY ABOUT THE AFGHAN POPULATION, NO ONE WANTS TO LOSE THE KINDS OF PROGRESS, THE KIND OF INTEGRATION INTO THE REST OF THE WORLD, THE ECONOMIC, SOCIAL, POLITICAL, KIND OF GAINS THAT WE'VE SEEN.

THERE ARE A VARIETY OF OPINIONS ABOUT WHAT THE FUTURE OF AFGHANISTAN SHOULD LOOK LIKE AND INDEED THAT'S WHAT THIS WAR HAS BEEN ABOUT.

BUT PEOPLE WANT EDUCATION, PEOPLE WANT HEALTH CARE AND THEY WANT PEACE ABOVE ALL ELSE.

ROBERT, HOW REALISTIC IS THAT?

WE HEAR FROM THE PRESIDENT SAYING THE WAR IS OVER.

IS THE WAR OVER?

HOW DO YOU SEE THE NEXT I DON'T KNOW YEAR, TWO YEARS, EVEN SIX MONTHS UNFOLDING?

WELL, I THINK THAT ASHLEY IS ESSENTIALLY RIGHT.

I THINK THE VAST MAJORITY OF AFGHANS WANT TO SEE PEACE, AND THAT EXTENDS TO -- TO FORMER POLITICAL LEADERS.

SO I THINK ALL THINGS EQUAL THEY WOULD LIKE TO MAKE THEIR PEACE WITH THE TALIBAN.

THEY WOULD LIKE TO HELP THE TALIBAN CREATE A BROAD-BASED POLITICAL DISPENSATION THAT CAN APPEAL TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF AFGHANS.

SUCCEED IN THAT, BUT I THINK THE SENTIMENT MOST OF THE COUNTRY WHETHER IN THEIR HEART OF HEARTS THEY LIKE TO TALIBAN OR NOT ARE GOING TO WANT TO TRY TO GIVE THIS A CHANCE AND TO TRY TO MAKE THE BEST OF IT.

YOU KNOW, IT'S -- I DON'T THINK WE CAN MAKE JUDGMENTS ABOUT FIVE YEARS FROM NOW BASED ON THE SENTIMENTS THAT WE SEE RIGHT NOW, AND THE TALIBAN STILL HAS MANY ENEMIES IN THE COUNTRY AS WE KNOW, AND I WOULD NOT BE AT ALL SURPRISED IF FIVE YEARS FROM NOW, EIGHT YEARS FROM NOW, WE SEE SIGNIFICANT POCKETS OF RESISTANCE TO THE TALIBAN CREEPING UP ELSEWHERE IN THE COUNTRY IF THEY DON'T DO WHAT THEY NEED TO DO TO BRING THE AFGHAN PEOPLE ALONG WITH THEM.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR YOUR PERSPECTIVES.

ROBERT AND ASHLEY, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

NOW, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAYS EFFORTS ARE STILL UNDER WAY TO EXTRACT AROUND 100 AMERICANS WHO WERE LEFT BEHIND IN AFGHANISTAN.

SINCE THE FALL OF KABUL THE U.S.

AND ITS ALLIES HAVE EVACUATED MORE THAN 123,000 PEOPLE FROM THE COUNTRY.

HE'S A FORMER AFGHAN INTERPRETER WHO SPENT FIVE YEARS WORKING FOR U.S. SPECIAL FORCES.

CORRESPONDENT ANA CORAN FOLLOWS HIS FAMILY'S DESPERATE JOURNEY.

Reporter: HIS FAMILY PILED INTO A TAXI WITH JUST A BAG OF BELONGINGS, ABDUL RASHEED SHAZAD.

HEADING TO THE AIRPORT, HOPE TO MAKE IT AND SURVIVE.

Reporter: THEY KNEW THEIR CHANCE FOR ESCAPE WAS SLIM.

THAT'S A TALIBAN VEHICLE RIGHT THERE WITH THE WHITE FLAG.

Reporter: BUT AS THE FATHER OF THREE YOUNG BOYS THE ALTERNATIVE WAS NOT AN OPTION.

THAT'S MY WIFE RIGHT THERE.

THIS IS ME.

Reporter: ONCE AT THE AIRPORT HE REALIZED HE'D MADE A MISTAKE.

HIS ELDEST CHILD NEARLY TRAMPLED.

THERE'S NO WAY TO GET INSIDE.

Reporter: THIS WAS THE FAMILY'S SECOND ATTEMPT AT THE AIRPORT WITHIN DAYS AND AS DARKNESS FELL THE REALITY.

WE MET RASHEED LAST MONTH IN KABUL WHILE DOING A STORY ON INTERPRETERS LEFT BEHIND.

A NUMBER OF THEM HAD BEEN EXECUTED BY THE TALIBAN AND FEARED THEY'D BE KILLED.

SEAL COMMANDERS DESCRIBING HIM AS A VALUABLE AND NECESSARY ASSET WHO BRAVED ENEMY FIRE AND UNDOUBTEDLY SAVED THE LIVES OF AMERICANS AND AFGHANS ALIKE.

THESE GUYS WERE YOUR AMERICAN BROTHERS.

AMERICAN BROTHERS, YEAH.

BUT AT THE END OF 2013 HIS CONTRACT WAS TERMINATED AFTER HE FAILED A POLYGRAPH TEST.

WHEN HE LATER APPLIED AN SIV TO THE UNITED STATES HIS APPLICATION WAS AUTOMATICALLY DENIED.

WE KEPT IN TOUCH AFTER I LEFT AFGHANISTAN.

AND IN A MATTER OF WEEKS THE COUNTRY HAD COLLAPSED AND WAS NOW UNDER TALIBAN RULE.

THEY'RE GOING TO CUT OUR HEADS OFF IF THEY FIND MY LOCATION.

PLEASE HELP.

CNN EVACUATED STAFF FROM KABUL WITH THE HELP OF A SECURITY TEAM ON THE GROUND WORKING WITH BRITISH PARATROOPERS INSIDE THE AIRPORT.

BEFORE DAWN ON SUNDAY 22nd OF AUGUST, HE, HIS FAMILY, AND ANOTHER NINE PEOPLE WERE PICKED UP AT A LOCATION NEAR THE AIRPORT.

THEY WERE DRIVEN CLOSE TO A TALIBAN CHECK POINT NEAR A TALIBAN BACK GATE MANNED BY THE BRITISH.

WE WERE SO CLOSE TO THE GATE.

IN LESS THAN AN HOUR BRITISH PARATROOPERS LET THEM IN.

BUT CELEBRATIONS WERE SHORT-LIVED.

U.S. MARINES WOULD NOT ALLOW RASHAED AND HIS FAMILY PAST THE AIRPORT.

Reporter: A FRANTIC SEVEN HOURS ENSUED AS MESSAGES AND PHONE CALLS BETWEEN LONDON, HONG KONG, ATLANTA, VIRGINIA AND KABUL WERE MADE COORDINATING WITH SECURITY ON THE GROUND.

ONCE HIS IDENTITY WAS CONFIRMED THEY WERE THROUGH.

WE'RE AT THE AIRPORT TERMINAL.

WE MADE IT.

WE'RE EXCITE.

Reporter: FOR ALMOST TWO DAYS THEY WAITED PATIENT ATLY THE AIRPORT AS THOUSANDS OF FELLOW AFGHANS WERE AIRLIFTED TO A NEW LIFE.

ANOTHER AIRCRAFT ABOUT TO TAKE OFF, LOTS OF MARINES THERE.

Reporter: THEN IT WAS THEIR TURN, EXHAUSTED BUT HAPPY ABOARD A C130 TO A U.S. BASE IN BAHRAIN.

LESS THAN 24 HOURS LATER THEY WERE ON THE MOVE AGAIN.

WE ARE SO EXCITED.

WE STILL DON'T KNOW WHERE WE'RE HEADING TO SO HOPEFULLY IT'S THE U.S.

Reporter: AND SURE ENOUGH THEIR WISH HAD COME TRUE.

OUR AIRCRAFT HAS LANDED IN D.C., THAT'S WASHINGTON.

WE ARE THIS CLOSE.

EVERYBODY IS EXCITED.

Reporter: IN THE SPACE OF FOUR DAYS THEY WERE ON U.S.

SOIL.

HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE IN AMERICA?

IT'S BEAUTIFUL TO BE HERE.

WE WERE THE LUCKIEST PEOPLE, YOU KNOW.

Reporter: FORT LEE MILITARY BASE VIRGINIA WHILE HIS SIV WAS PROCESSED HE WAS RENEWNITED WITH A MEMBER WHO HE HADN'T SEEN FOR NINE YEARS.

A SECOND CHANCE AT LIFE FROM AN ETERNALLY GRATEFUL FAMILY.

HIS HEART MAY REMAIN IN AFGHANISTAN BUT HIS FUTURE NOW LIES A WORLD AWAY.

ANA COREN REPORTING THERE.

AND A COUPLE OF DEFENSE OFFICIALS SAY TALIBAN MEMBERS ESCORTED AMERICANS TO THE GATES OF THE TALIBAN AIRPORT TO SECRET ARRANGEMENTS DURING AN AIRLIFT, BUT THE EVACUATION EFFORT WASN'T ALL AMERICA'S HEAVY LIFTING.

EUROPE INVESTED HEAVILY IN AFGHANISTAN UNDER A NATO UMBRELLA AFTER SEPTEMBER 11th WHEN THE BLOC INVOKED ITS ARTICLE DEFENDANT DEFENSE OF ALL FOR THE FIRST TIME.

THE GERMAN MINISTER IS IN PAKISTAN TODAY MEETING WITH HIS COUNTERPART ABOUT NEXT STEPS.

ANGELA MERKEL IS ONE OF AMERICA'S LONGEST SERVING CHANCELLORS.

FOR NEARLY 16 YEARS SHE'S REPRESENTED DEMOCRACY, HUMANE MIGRATION, A STRONG EUROPE.

BUT HER EXTRAORDINARY LEADERSHIP ENDS IN LATE SEPTEMBER, AND WHOEVER HER SUCCESSOR WILL HAVE TO FILL SOME VERY LARGE SHOES.

ONE HOPEFUL IS MY NEXT GUEST, THE GREEN PARTY LEADER AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW LIVE FROM POTTSTOWN, GERMANY.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I DID SAY THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO FILL SOME VERY LARGE SHOES IF YOU WANTED TO STEP INTO ANGELA MERKEL'S ROLE.

IS THAT FAIR?

IS THAT A BURDEN ON YOU?

HOW DO YOU FEEL TAKING THIS ON?

HELLO AND GOOD AFTERNOON.

OVER THE ATLANTIC IT'S REALLY A BIG PLEASURE FOR ME TO BE IN YOUR SHOW.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE INVITATION.

YES, THESE ARE VERY IMPORTANT THREE WEEKS TO COME IN GERMANY BECAUSE AFTER DECADES OF ANGELA MERKEL WITH BIG SHOES A NEW CHANCELLOR AND REALLY A HISTORICAL DECISION IN GERMANY BECAUSE THE QUESTION IS IF WE REALLY RENEW OUR COUNTRY OR IF WE KEEP ONGOING LIKE IN THE LAST YEAR SO IT'S REALLY AN IMPORTANT TIME FOR GERMANY.

SO I'M GOING TO GET TO GREEN IN A MOMENT BECAUSE IT IS EXTRAORDINARY.

YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT 11 OF YOUR 16 AREAS THAT ARE IN COALITION WITH GREENS.

IT'S THE FIRST TIME A GREEN CANDIDATE IS RUNNING FOR THIS POSITION.

BUT I FIRST WANT TO GO BACK TO AFGHANISTAN BECAUSE YOUR FOREIGN MINISTER IS IN THE REGION.

YOU YOURSELF SAID DURING THE EVACUATION AND THE FALL OF KABUL THAT THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT HAD MISSED SIGNALS FROM YOUR OWN DIPLOMATS IN THE COUNTRY, IN AFGHANISTAN AND CONTRIBUTED TO THIS FAILURE OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOU THINK SHOULD HAVE GONE BETTER, HOW IT?

FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD LIKE TO EXPRESS MY DEEPEST CONDOLENCES TO THE FALLEN U.S. SERVICE MEMBERS AFTER THIS HORRIBLE ATTACK AON THE GROUND OF KABUL.

THESE ARE REALLY EMOTIONAL TIMES FOR EVERYBODY, ALSO FOR US IN GERMANY BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE LIKE YOU ALREADY HAD IN YOUR REPORT STATE IN AFGHANISTAN, MANY PEOPLE WHO OF THE GERMAN CITIZENSHIP, MANY PEOPLE WHO WORKED FOR THE GERMAN ARMIES COULDN'T BE SAVED OVER THE LAST WEEKS.

AND ONE OF THE BIG FAILURES FROM THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT WAS AFTER THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION DECLARED IN APRIL THAT THEY WOULD WITHDRAW END OF AUGUST, THE PREPARATION DIDN'T WORK AS THEY SHOULD IN GERMANY TO BRING BACK GERMAN CITIZENS BUT ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WHO WORKED WITH THE GERMAN ARMY, WORKED WITH GERMAN NGOs TO GET THE VISAS READY FOR THOSE PEOPLE TO GO -- TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY TOWARD GERMANY.

BECAUSE PREPARATION WEREN'T DONE MANY PEOPLE COULDN'T BE SAVED OVER THE LAST WEEKS.

SO YOU RECALL WHEN YOUR CHANCELLOR ANGELA MERKEL DID ALLOW SO MANY REFUGEES IN BACK IN 2015, AND SHE WAS ROUNDLY CRITICIZED.

IT LED TO A WAVE OF NATIONALALLISM AND POPULISM AND UPSIDE DOWN POLITICS.

NOW SHE'S SAYING THAT 10 TO 40,000 LOCAL AFGHANS WHO WORKED AS YOU SAY FOR GERMANY AND FOR THE MISSION HAVE THE RIGHT TO RESETTLE IN GERMANY IF THEY WANT TO.

WILL GERMANY ALLOW THAT?

WOULD YOU PARTY BACK THAT?

WELL, FIRST OF ALL IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT IN 2015 THAT THE CHANCELLOR SAID AT THE MOMENT WHEN PEOPLE WERE MOVING AROUND EUROPE WAS STANDING IN FRONT OF THE GERMAN BORDER WHICH HAS BEEN AN OPEN BORDER FOR MANY, MANY YEARS BECAUSE WE ARE IN A UNITED EUROPE, THAT PEOPLE COULD COME TO GERMANY.

IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT.

AND MANY PEOPLE CAME, AND OVER THE LAST YEARS EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS A RISE OF A POPULIST PARTY WITHIN GERMANY, THE BIG MAJORITY OF GERMANS SUPPORTED THE INTEGRATIONS OF REFUGEES, WAS IN GERMANY.

IN MY DOWNTOWN HERE IN POTTSTOWN, THERE WERE SO MANY PEOPLE ENGAGING AND BRINGING KIDS TO SCHOOL, GETTING JOBS FOR REFUGEES WHO SETTLED IN OUR HOMETOWNS HERE.

AND NOW THE BIG QUESTION, IF WE HELP THOSE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORTED NATO TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN TO SAVE THEIR LIVES AND TO YOUR QUESTION, YES I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THOSE PEOPLE -- AND IT GOES UP TO 50,000 PEOPLE IN AFGHANISTAN WHO SUPPORTED NATO TROOPS, SUPPORTED GERMAN TROOPS AND ALSO WORKED AS NGOs, TRANSLATORS, AS COOKS FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS, WOMEN ORGANIZATIONS WE GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.

BUT THE DIFFICULTY IS NOW AFTER THE TROOPS HAVE LEFT AS YOU KNOW AS WELL THAT IT'S REALLY HARD TO GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT.

AND MY POINT OF VIEW IS THAT WE NEED REALLY IMPORTANTLY AN AFGHANISTAN SUMMIT OF ALL NATO TROOPS TOGETHER WITH CHINA AND TOGETHER WITH RUSSIA AND THE NEIGHBORING STATES TO SAVE THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL STUCK IN AFGHANISTAN AND WHO ARE FACED WITH THIS.

YOU KNOW, I WAS SPEAKING TO MY PREVIOUS GUEST WHO SAID WE HAD TO ENGAGE NOW WITH THE TALIBAN BECAUSE YOU COULDN'T BLAME, YOU KNOW, THE TALIBAN FOR THE POVERTY AND THE HARDSHIP THAT MIGHT COME DOWN TO THE GENERAL POPULATION.

SO HOW DO YOU, IF YOU WERE CHANCELLOR, ENVISION A RELATIONSHIP WITH A GROUP SUCH AS THE TALIBAN?

WELL, IT'S A TERRORIST GROUP SO WE CANNOT RECOGNIZE THE TALIBAN AS A JIHADIST TERRORIST GROUP AS A NORM GOVERNMENT.

SO IT CANNOT BE RECOGNIZED AS A GOVERNMENT, BUT WE HAVE TO KEEP UP THOSE FUNDINGS.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH WHAT HAS BEEN SAID BEFORE, FUNDINGS FOR SCHOOL ESPECIALLY FOR CHILDREN, FOR GIRLS.

WE HAVE TO TALK ALSO ABOUT THE UNITE NATION'S MISSION WHICH IS STILL IN AFGHANISTAN TO ENSURE THAT THE BASIC CIVIL RIGHTS ARE ENSURED IN THE COUNTRY AND TO GUARANTEE THAT THE WHOLE QUESTION OF HEALTH CARE IS NOT TOTALLY DESTROYED.

BUT, HOWEVER, I FIND MOST IMPORTANTLY AT THE MOMENT NOT EVERY NATO GOVERNMENT IS DOING THEIR OWN THING BECAUSE WE WENT TOGETHER INTO THIS MISSION 20 YEARS AGO AND NOW IT'S THE RESPONSIBILITY OF NATO AND THIS THE SUMMIT BETWEEN THE NATO STATES TO ENSURE THAT BASIC CIVIL RIGHTS AND LIVING CONDITIONS ARE STILL GUARANTEED IN AFGHANISTAN.

SO ONE OF YOUR OPPONENTS OR CHALLENGERS FOR THE CHANCELLORS POSITION HAS SAID THAT THIS DEFEAT, THIS DEBACLE AS HE'S CALLED IT IS THE BIGGEST, YOU KNOW, PROBLEM NATO HAS ENCOUNTERED SINCE ITS FOUNDING.

I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS THIS.

NATO AS YOU MENTIONED INVOKED ARTICLE 5 FOR THE UNITED STATES AFTER 9/11.

NOW IT'S PERCEIVED THAT THE UNITED STATES DID NOT CORRECTLY ENGAGE WITH GERMAN OR BRITISH OR OTHER EUROPEAN PARTNERS AS IT CAME OUT.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT SAID ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN AND AMERICA'S BACK AND NOW EUROPEANS ARE ASKING WHAT EXACTLY DOES THAT MEAN?

ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH UN OF THE FIRST EXAMPLES OF AMERICA BEING BACK, YOU KNOW, UNFOLDING IN AFGHANISTAN RIGHT NOW?

WE HAVE TO EVALUATE THE WHOLE MISSION, THE WHOLE 20 YEARS BECAUSE IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT THAT 20 YEARS AGO THERE WAS NOT ONLY A SOLIDARITY WITH THE U.S.

FROM EUROPE, FROM WESTERN PARTNERS, FROM NATO PARTNERS TO INVOKE ARTICLE 5 BUT ALSO A QUESTION OF HUMANITARIAN INTERVENTION BECAUSE WE CANNOT SHUTDOWN, IN WORST CASE IF HUMAN RIGHTS ATROCITIES ARE HAPPENING AROUND US IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD.

BUT OVER THE 20 YEARS THERE HAVE BEEN MANY MISTAKES WHICH HAVE TO BE EVALUATED.

WITHIN NATO WE ARE ANYHOW AT THE MOMENT AT A STRATEGIC DEBATE WITH NATO, AND THIS MISSION, ONE OF BIGGEST MISSIONS OF NATO HAS TO BE TOTALLY DISCUSSED WITH NATO, WHAT WENT WRONG AND WHAT WENT RIGHT BECAUSE THERE WAS BIG SUPPORT IN THE BEGINNING WITH REGARD OF CIVIL SOCIETY WITH BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS.

BUT OVER THE YEARS WHEN THE MISSION TURNED TOWARDS THE WAR ON TERROR WE HAD MANY, MANY PEOPLE ALSO OUT OF THE ARMY WHICH WERE SAYING WE CANNOT FIGHT ONLY TERROR.

WE HAVE TO DO ALSO WORKING TOGETHER WITH THE GOVERNMENT, WORKING WITH INFRASTRUCTURE AND LOOKING AT THE PROBLEMS WHICH HAPPENED ALREADY IN THE LAST YEARS THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN TRAINED FROM NATO TROOPS WENT OVER TO THE TALIBAN BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T PAID THE SAME AS WHAT THE TALIBAN PAID THEM.

IN THE MIDST OF THE NATO MANDATE DISCUSSIONS AND TALKS WITH THE TALIBAN IGNORING THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.

THIS WAS ONE OF THE MAJOR NOT ONLY PROBLEMS BUT DISASTERS FOR THE SITUATION WE ARE STANDING IN NOW RIGHT NOW.

CAN I ASK YOU OBVIOUSLY ABOUT CLIMATE?

YOU'RE THE FIRST GREEN CANDIDATE FOR CHANCELLOR.

WE'VE SEEN HURRICANE IDA IN THE UNITED STATES.

YOU HAD TERRIBLE FLOODS, TERRIBLE DEATHS IN GERMANY.

WE'VE SEEN THEM IN INDIA, IN CHINA OVER THE SUMMER.

EUROPEANS ARE VERY INCLINED TO VOTE FOR -- YOU KNOW, FOR MITIGATING THE CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT SOME OF THEM ARE CONCERNED WHAT DO YOU PLAN TO DO TO MAKE IT REALLY MEANINGFULLY FRONT AND CENTER OF AN ADMINISTRATION THAT YOU MIGHT LEAD?

FIGHTING THE CLIMATE CRISIS HAS TO BE TOPIC FOR EVERY GOVERNMENT FOR THE UPCOMING YEARS BECAUSE CLIMATE NEUTRALITY IS NOT ONLY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO SAVE ALL OF OUR LIVES.

YOU MENTIONED ALREADY THE HORRIBLE DISASTERS IN THE U.S.

WE HAD IT IN EUROPE WITH MANY, MANY PEOPLE LOST THEIR LIFE OVER THE LAST YEARS BECAUSE OF THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

SO IT'S THE QUESTION FOR HUMAN MAN KIND IN THE 21st CENTURY AND ON THE OTHER PART IT'S ALSO THE QUESTION FOR MODERN SOCIETY, FOR MODERN INDUSTRY.

SO MY PROPOSAL IS THAT WE GO TOGETHER TO THE NEXT CLIMATE CONFERENCE IN GLASGOW AS A TRANSATLANTIC UNION BETWEEN THE EU AND THE UNITED STATES AND FORALIZE A TRANSATLANTIC AGENDA INVESTING BILLIONS INTO A CLIMATE NEUTRAL TECHNOLOGY AND SHOWING ALSO THAT WESTERN DEMOCRACIES CAN FACE TOGETHER ONE OF OUR BIGGEST CHALLENGES OF THE WORLD.

AND FINALLY I WAS REALLY INTERESTED YOU BROUGHT UP RUSSIA AND KINA, AND WE SEE MANY WORLD LEADERS TALK ABOUT HOW THEY NEED CHINA TO BE ONBOARD PARTICULARLY ON CLIMATE.

YOU INTERESTINGLY SAY YOU'LL NOT GO EASY ON CHINA JUST BECAUSE YOU NEED COOPERATION ON CLIMATES.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

WHY ARE YOU MAKING THAT STATEMENT?

WE HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER ON CLIMATE BECAUSE WE HAVE ONLY ONE WORLD AND THE CLIMATE DOESN'T KNOW ANY BORDERS BUT WE'RE IN A COMPETITION WITH CHINA TOWARD AUTOCRATIC SYSTEMS AND AUTOCRATIC STATES.

AND WE'VE SEEN OVER THE LAST YEARS THAT THE GAP WHICH HAVE BEEN LEFT BY THE WEST BUT ALSO BY THE EUROPEAN UNION WITH REGARD OF WORKING TOGETHER WAS FILLED BY CHINA.

GIVING ONE EXAMPLE OF MAYBE YOU OVER THE ATLANTIC WHO DIDN'T FOLLOW THAT SO CLOSELY, WHEN WE HAD THE EURO CRISIS IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, WHEN GREECE WAS FACING REALLY BIG CHALLENGES FOR THEIR COUNTRY OF INFRASTRUCTURE CHINA INVESTED HEAVILY IN GREECE AND IN ALSO OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, IN TRAIN NETWORKS, IN DIGITALIZATION BUT NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF GOOD WILL BUT FOR STRATEGIC REASONS, TO HAVE DEPENDENCY WITH THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE WE'RE IN HEAVY COMPETITION WITH CHINA WITH REGARD OF FUTURE MARKET BUT ALSO WITH REGARD OF VALUES AND HUMAN RIGHTS, AND THAT'S WHY FOR ME IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO STAY IN CONTACT WITH CHINA ON CLIMATE ISSUES, TO STAY IN CONTACT WITH GLOBAL PROBLEMS LIKE THE PANDEMIC BUT HAVE A STRONG VOICE WITH REGARD OF PROTECTING OUR EUROPEAN VALUES, PRECCING OUR EUROPEAN INTERESTS AND ALSO PROTECTING OUR COMMON EUROPEAN MARKET MAYBE, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS WHICH ARE FACING CHINESE PEOPLE IN CHINA.

WHAT IS REALLY INTERESTING TO GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE PARTICULARLY AS YOU'RE FIGHTING FOR THIS CHANCELLORSHIP.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

> NOW COVID IS STILL SURGING IN GERMANY AND WAVING IT'S DEADLY TRAIL AROUND THE WORLD.

IN THE UNITED STATES THERE'S BEEN A RECENT UPTICK IN VACCINATIONS, BUT 26% OF ADULTS ARE STILL UNPROTECTED.

AND THERE MAY BE A HIDDEN ECONOMIC IMPACT.

MICHELLE SINGLETARY IS A FINANCE COLUMNIST FOR 'THE WASHINGTON POST' AND HER NEW OP-ED 'FIRED, SICK OR BOTH.'

HERE SHE IS SPEAKING TO OUR MICHELLE MARTIN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

OH, IT'S MY PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

SO MANY PEOPLE WILL KNOW YOU A PERSON WHO'S BEEN WRITING ABOUT PERSONAL FINANCE FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

NOW YOU'VE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THE IMPACT OF BEING UNVACCINATED MAY HAVE ON PEOPLES PERSONAL FINANCIAL SITUATIONS.

NOW AS WE ARE SPEAKING THOSE NUMBERS ARE CREEPING UP, BUT THERE'S STILL A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF ELIGIBLE AMERICANS WHO ARE NOT YET VACCINATED.

AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT COMPANIES ARE STARTING TO PRESSURE PEOPLE.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WAYS THEY'RE STARTING TO DO THAT?

WELL, FOR EXAMPLE, DELTA ANNOUNCED IT'S GOING TO DO A SURCHARGE FOR THOSE UNVACCINATED EMPLOYEES WHO CHOOSE NOT TO GET VACCINATED.

AND MANY COMPANIES ESPECIALLY NOW THAT THE PFIZER DRUG HAS FULL FDA APPROVAL ARE SAYING GET VACCINATED OR YOU COULD LOSE YOUR JOB.

AND COMPANIES HAVE FIRED PEOPLE FOR NOT GETTING VACCINATED.

AND I WANTED TO WRITE A COLUMN TO TAKE IT AWAY FROM THE POLITICS AND ALL THE YELLING AND SCREAMING AND, YOU KNOW, ACCUSING PEOPLE OF BEING ANTI-VAXXER IN A VERY NEGATIVE WAY BECAUSE YOU CAN'T PERSUADE PEOPLE THAT WAY.

THEY JUST DIG IN AND SO I WANTED TO WRITE A COLUMN TO SAY, HEY, OKAY, YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT GET THIS VACCINATION BUT IT'S GOING TO COST YOU AND THE COST COULD BE ASTRONOMICAL TO YOU AND TO YOUR FAMILY.

TO AIRLINES THEY'RE GOING TO START PLACING A SURCHARGE AND INSURANCE ON THOSE CHOOSING NOT TO BE VACCINATED.

IT'S A $200 SURCHARGE AND THEY'RE FINDING WHEN EMPLOYEES ARE HOSPITALIZED IT COST UP TO $50,000.

ON AVERAGE KAISER FOUNDATION FOUND IT WAS ABOUT $20,000, BUT THAT'S THE AVERAGE.

SO MORE OR LESS, RIGHT?

AND SO IT'S GOING TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE EMPLOYERS AND HOSPITALS AND SHOO INSURERS ARE SAYING IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO GET VACCINATED YOU MIGHT HAVE TO COVER THAT FULL COST.

WE'RE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT AND PEOPLE MAY BE UNSURE, BUT ONCE PFIZER GOT FULL APPROVAL AND MIND YOU LET'S JUST SAY ALL THE VACCINES HAD APPROVAL, EMERGENCY APPROVAL.

SO IT'S NOT LIKE SOME SORT OF WILD, WILD WILD WEST, IT WEPT THROUGH RIGOROUS STUDIES AND SCIENCE.

IF COMES TO THE POINT EMPLOYers SAY YOU GOT THIS BILL BECAUSE YOU DECIDED NOT TO GET VACCINATED.

HOUSTON METHODIST HEALTH SYSTEM HAS FIRED EMPLOYEES FOR REFUSING TO GET VACCINATED PARTICULARLY RELEVANT TO THEIR PARTICULAR JOB FUNCTION LIKE THE FACT THEY HAD TO INTERACT WITH OTHER EMPLOYEES OR PATIENTS SORT OF CLOSELY.

IS IT PRETTY WELL-ESTABLISHED AT THIS POINT THAT EMPLOYERS DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMPEL THEIR EMPLOYEES TO GET VACCINATED?

HAS THAT BEEN PRETTY WELL-ESTABLISHED SPH.

I WOULDN'T SAY PRETTY WELL, BUT IT'S GOING TO GO AGAINST YOU.

IN HOUSTON ABOUT 153 PEOPLE EITHER THEY GOT FIRED OR HAD TO RESIGN.

AND SOME OF THOSE EMPLOYEES TOOE CASE WAS DISMISSED BECAUSE THE JUDGE SAID THIS IS A HEALTH SYSTEM AND THESE ARE HEALTH PROFESSIONALS TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE WITH COVID.

SO TO GET VACCINATED PROTECT THEM AND PROTECT THE PATIENTS AND THE STAFF, AND SO IT'S GOOD CAUSE TO HAVE THEM REQUIRE EMPLOYEES TO BE VACCINATED.

SO THE JUDGE TOSSED THE SUIT OUT.

BUT THE EOC HAS BEEN RELEASING UPDATES AND BULLETINS TO EMPLOYERS.

AND AS LONG AS ACCOMMODATIONS ARE MADE AND PROVIDED AND YOU STILL -- AND IF YOU STILL REFUTE IT, THEN THEY HAVE A RIGHT.

ACCORDING TO THE EOC EARLY GUIDANCE THAT THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO FIRE YOU OR DENY YOU EMPLOYMENT IF YOU DON'T GET VACCINATED.

WAYS THAT BEING UNVACCINATEDR COULD COST YOU AND AS YOU SAY ASTRONOMICALLY?

WELL, ONE WAY IS YOU LOSE YOUR JOB.

WHILE YOU'RE LOOKING FOR ANOTHER JOB YOU MAY NOT GET UNEMPLOYMEN.

BECAUSE IF THE EMPLOYERS REQUIRE IT AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S PROTECTING THEIR STAFF, AND YOU SAY NO THEN YOU COULD BE DENIED BENEFITS.

SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO PREPARE FOR YOUR FAMILY?

AND MORE AND MORE EMPLOYERS ARE REQUIRING IT SO THAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE YOU LONGER TO FIND A JOB THAT YOU CAN REPLACE THAT INCOME.

IT LET'S BE REAL.

GOING TO PAY YOUR BILLS FOR YOUR FAMILY?

AND WE ALREADY KNOW MANY FAMILIES DON'T HAVE ENOUGH LIFE INSURANCE, DON'T HAVE SAVINGS.

PARTICULARLY IF YOU'VE GOT UNDERAGE CHILDREN 18 AND UNDER WHO CAN'T WORK AND GET A JOB, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM?

AND LOOK DOWN THE ROAD.

PEOPLE AREN'T GOOD ABOUT THAT LOOKING DOWN THE ROAD BUT WE KNOW THE LONG HAULERS, THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SYMPTOMS FROM COVID LONG AFTER IT'S GONE WE DON'T KNOW HOW THAT'S GOING TO COST YOU MEDICALLY IN TERMS OF NEUROLOGICAL ISSUES.

AND SO THAT COULD COST YOU DOWN THE ROAD IN TERMS OF LONG-TERM CARE.

THAT COULD COST YOU DOWN THE ROAD.

AND WHAT I THINK I HEAR YOU SAYING IS EVEN IF -- YOU MAY NOT BE COVERED EVEN IF YOU DO HAVE INSURANCE THROUGH THAT LONG-TERM REHABILITATION PROCESS.

EVEN IF YOU DO HAVE INSURANCE.

THAT'S TRUE.

WE'RE IN A GRAY AREA.

AND EOC AND GOVERNMENT AGENCIES ARE GIVING GUIDANCE.

THEY'RE NOT SAYING IT'S AN ABSOLUTE, BUT THEY'RE SAYING WE KNOW THAT THE VACCINE CAN KEEP YOU FROM DYING OR HAVING SEVERE EFFECTS.

IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO SOME OF THAT COST OR ALL OF THAT COST COULD BE PUT ON YOU SOMEWHERE DOWN THE ROAD.

BECAUSE IF NOT WE ALL PAY FOR SOMEONE'S INDIVIDUAL DECISION NOT TO GET VACCINATED.

IF THE COST OF HEALTH CARE GOES UP SIGNIFICANTLY, THEY'RE SPREAD ACROSS ALL THE BASE OF PEOPLE INSURED.

EVENTUALLY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GO I'M NOT GOING TO PAY THIS EXTRA MONEY BECAUSE YOU CHOSE NOT TO GET VACCINATED.

I THOUGHT AFFORDABLE CARE ACT WAS NOT TO PUNISH PEOPLE FOR HAVING PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS.

I MEAN THIS WAS A CONTAGIOUS RESPIRATORY VIRUS THE ENTIRE WORLD HAS BEEN DEALING WITH SO IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS SORT OF UNKNOWN TO YOU.

BUT I MEAN HOW DOES THAT SIT WITH YOU CHARGING PEOPLE MORE FOR THE DECISION THEY MAKE?

IS THERE A PRECEDENT FOR THIS?

FOR EXAMPLE, COULD YOU CHARGE PEOPLE MORE FOR CHOOSING TO SMOKE?

IT'S BEEN KNOWN FOR SOME TIME SMOKING HAS A DELETERIOUS EFFECT ON HEALTH.

IS THERE SOME PRECEDENT FOR THIS INSURERS ARE POINTING TO, EMPLOYERS CAN POINT TO?

YEAH, WELL THEY DO CHARGE SMOKERS MORE.

TO YOUR POINT ABOUT PRE-EXISTIN.

PEOPLE CHALLENGE IT, THEY GO TO COURT, IT COULD TAKE YEARS.

AND DURING THAT TIME YOU'VE GOT TO FOOT THAT BILL, SO IT IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE.

IF WE'RE GOING TO CHARGE PEOPLE NOT TO GET THE VACCINE WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HAD TYPE 2 DIABETES, FOR EXAMPLE, MAYBE THEIR LIFESTYLE CREATED THIS CONDITION?

I THINK THE COURTS MIGHT END UP BEING CLOGGED WITH A LOT OF CASES PEOPLE ARGUING AGAINST IT, AND THAT'S WELL AND GOOD AND HOW OUR SYSTEM WORKS, BUT I WANT TO TALK TO THE INDIVIDUAL WHO IS DECIDING NOT TO DO THIS, AND CAN YOU BEAR THAT COST?

CAN YOU FIGHT THROUGH A LEGAL CASE WHILE YOU DON'T HAVE A JOB OR PAY PREMIUMS UNTIL IT GETS WORKED OUT IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM?

I'VE BEEN LOOKING AT GOFUNDME PAGES OF PEOPLE WHO DIED FROM COVID AND ASKING FOR MONEY FROM THEIR SURVIVING CHILDREN AND SPOUSE, WHICH TELLS ME NOT ENOUGH LIFE INSURANCE OR SAVINGS AND I GET THAT.

IT'S HARD TO SAVE FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS, OF COURSE, BUT IT ALSO SHOWS PEOPLE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHO YOU'RE GOING TO LEAVE BEHIND OR WHO ELSE ARE IMPACTED FROM NOT GETTING THE VACCINE.

I'M LEAVING MY CHILDREN AND DYING AND WHO'S GOING TO TAKE CARE OF THEM?

AND THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO SAY.I.

I WAS SCARED WHEN THIS FIRST CAME OUT.

AND AS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WE DON'T TRUST THE HEALTH SYSTEM BECAUSE WE KNOW THERE WERE A LOT OF DISCRIMINATION GOING ON.

WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THE TUSKEGEE INCIDENT, SO I GET IT.

I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU'RE AFRAID.

WHEN I LOOKED AT THE RESEARCH AND LOOKED AT IT OUTSIDE THE SORT OF POLITICAL BUBBLE WE'RE IN, I CHOSE TO GET VACCINATED BECAUSE I WANT TO BE HERE FOR MY KIDS.

I WANT TO BE HERE FOR MY HUSBAND.

I DON'T WANT TO ENDANGER MY COWORKERS AND THEIR CHILDREN.

LET'S REMEMBER THAT CHILDREN UNDER 12 CAN'T GET THE VACCINE.

AND ALTHOUGH THE DEATHS AND ILLNESS FROM CHILDREN STATISTICALLY IS LESS, DO YOU WANT YOUR KID TO BE THAT STATISTIC BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SAY AT THEIR FUNERAL OH, MOST CHILDREN DON'T GET SICK AND DIE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE WORRIED IF GUY SICK FROM THE SIDE EFFECTS THEY MISS WORK.

IF YOU'RE SICK FROM THE SIDE EFFECTS YOU'RE GOING TO BE HOME WITH POSSIBLY WITHOUT PAY.

I GOT SICK AND I TOOK A SICK DAY BECAUSE IT WAS JUST LIKE A COLD.

BUT, AGAIN, THINK ABOUT LONG-TERM.

YOU MIGHT NOT GET PAID FOR TWO DAYS BUT IF YOU DON'T TAKE THAT SHOT AND YOU DIE YOU MIGHT NOT GET PAID FOR A LIFETIME AND YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE IMPACTED.

A COUPLE OF DAYS OF NO PAY AND BEING SICK AND A LIFETIME OF YOUR CHILDREN STRUG OR YOUR SPOUSE STRUGGLING AND YOU'VE GOT TO WEIGH THOSE TWO.

AND I'D SAY YOU NEED TO OPFOR EVEN IF YOU'VE GOT TO TAKE OFF A COUPLE OF DAYS WITHOUT PAY TO LIVE.

ARE THERE, THOUGH, ANY RELIGIOUS OR HEALTH REQUIREMENTS OR EXEMPTIONS THAT YOU DO FIND CREDIBLE?

BECAUSE IT IS A FACT THAT PEOPLE DO HAVE DIVERSE RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVES.

SOME PEOPLE DO HAVE OBJECTIONS TO WHAT THEY BELIEVE TO BE THE RESEARCH -- THE RESEARCH MODELS THAT LED TO THESE VACCINES ALTHOUGH I DO WANT TO POINT OUT AGAIN, YOU KNOW, POPE FRANCIS HAS ENCOURAGED PEOPLE TO BE VACCINATED.

SO THE ARGUMENT THAT, YOU KNOW, FETAL TISSUE WAS INVOLVED AND THEREFORE IT'S UNETHICAL, IT WOULD SEEM HE WOULD BE THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY ON THAT, AND HE HAS DECIDED THAT VACCINES SHOULD BE TAKEN TO SAVE LIVES ESPECIALLY TO SAVE VULNERABLE LIVES.

BUT ARE THERE ANY SPECIFIC HEALTH OR RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS THAT YOU THINK ARE CREDIBLE THAT SHOULD BE RESPECTED?

THERE ARE CERTAINLY SOME PEOPLE WHO PERHAPS HAVE RESPIRATORY ISSUES, FOR EXAMPLE THEY CAN'T WEAR MASKS OR THERE'S SOME RESEARCH THAT SHOWS, YOU KNOW, THE POTENTIAL FOR GETTING BLOOD CLOTS.

AND I ACTUALLY SUFFER FROM BLOOD CLOTTING CONDITION.

I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT IT SO I'M HAPPY TO TALK ABOUT IT.

I HAVE A PROTEIN EXTRAFICIENCY WHICH MAKES ME PRONE TO BLOOD CLOTS.

I'M ON MEDICATION AND THERE'S A WAY TO TREAT THE BLOOD CLOTS MORE EFFECTIVELY THAN IT IS TO TREAT COVID LONG-TERM.

SO THERE ARE SOME EXEMPTIONS AND THE LAW PROVIDES FOR THAT.

THE AMERICANS DISABILITY ACT SAYS IF SOMEONE HAS A DISABILITY OR SOME RELIGIOUS OBJECTION AND YOU HAVE -- EMPLOYERS HAVE TO ACCOMMODATE THOSE.

SO EVEN IN THE LAW THERE IS A CARVE OUT FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEGITIMATE -- LEGITIMATE.

THAT'S KEY -- REASONS FOR NOT GETTING THE VACCINE.

IF THEY PROVIDE ACCOMMODATIONS THERE IS A CARVE OUT FOR THOSE FOLKS.

HOWEVER, IF YOU STOCK SHELVES AND YOUR EMPLOYER SAYS YOU MUST GET VACCINATED THAT'S NOT AN ACCOMMODATION THEY CAN MAKE FOR YOU.

YOU CAN'T STOCK SHELVES FROM HOME.

SO THAT'S SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER.

I THINK IN THE AGE OF COVID THAT IS APPROPRIATE.

MICHELLE, ARE YOU AT ALL CONCERNED, THOUGH, COMPANIES STARTING TO IMPOSE THESE VACCINE MANDATES WILL START IMPOSING OTHER REQUIREMENTS AND THAT MIGHT LEAD TO A SLIPPERY SLOPE?

THERE IS A POSSIBILITY, BUT I'M NOT CONCERNED RIGHT NOW.

COVID IS SO LETHAL AND HAS SO MANY LONG-TERM EFFECTS THAT I THINK RIGHT NOW WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING COVID.

AND IT'S SUCH A -- WHEN YOU GET DIABETES IT EFFECTS MAYBE JUST YOUR FAMILY, BUT COVID HAS THE POTENTIAL TO EFFECT NOT JUST YOUR FAMILY BUT YOUR NEIGHBORS, YOUR FRIENDS, YOUR COWORKERS.

AND I THINK THERE CAN BE A CASE MADE IF YOU CHOOSE, THE SCIENCE IS THERE, THE VACCINE WORKS, IT WILL REDUCE YOUR ABILITY -- EVEN IF THERE'S SOME BREAK THROUGH CASES YOU'RE LESS LIKELY TO GET VERY, VERY SICK AND BE HOSPITALIZED AND DIE.

AND I THINK THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.

AND I'M NOT AS CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.

A LOT OF PLACES HAVE OFFERED INCENTIVES LIKE, YOU KNOW, METRO CARDS OR, YOU KNOW, LOTTERIES SO IN SOME CASES TUITION PAID AT COMMUNITY COLLEGE.

I MEAN, SOME OF THESE INCENTIVES HAVE BEEN PRETTY LAVISH AND SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN CUTE LIKE SHOW YOUR VAX CARD AND YOU GET A FREE BEER, ICE CREAM.

WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THAT?

DO YOU THINK THAT'S MOVED THE NEEDLE AT ALL?

I THINK IT'S MOVED A LITTLE.

AND YOU KNOW IN STATES AND AREAS WHERE THEY HAVE A LOTTERY LIKE THEY DID HERE IN MARYLAND VACCINATION RATES DID GO UP.

LISTEN, AMERICANS LOVE GETTING STUFF FREE, LOVE THOSE DISCOUNTS, THAT TWO FOR ONE KIND OF DEAL.

IF THAT WHAT IT TAKES TO GET PEOPLE ON THE FENCE AND THOSE PEOPLE LIKE I'M NOT SO SURE, THEN THAT MOVES THEM OVER TO THE VACCINATION COLUMN, AND I'M OKAY WITH THAT BECAUSE THAT COST IS GOING TO BE A LOT LESS THAN THE SOCIETAL COST OF PEOPLE BEING SICK OR DYING OR NOT EVEN BEING ABLE TO WORK.

LISTEN, YOUR EMPLOYER MAY NOT REQUIRE YOU TO GET VACCINATED AND MAY SAY, LISTEN, COME IN YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE HAVE A MASK HOWEVER IF YOU GET SICK OR YOUR COWORKER GETS SICK, PEOPLE YOU CARE ABOUT COULD LOSE YOUR JOB, YOUR KIDS COULD GET SICK.

SO THAT'S ALSO AN EFFECTIVE APPEAL I HOPE.

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WE'RE JUST NEVER GOING TO PERSUADE AND THAT'S VERY UNFORTUNATE.

AND WHILE SOME PEOPLE GLEEFULLY TWEET ABOUT THOSE FOLKS WHO HAVE DIED FROM COVID WHO WERE ANTI-VAXERS, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE GLEEFUL BECAUSE THE COST TO ALL OF US IS TOO HIGH.

AND WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO DO WHATEVER WE CAN DO TO PERSUADE THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE FENCE AND MAYBE DON'T REALLY HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE, THE RIGHT KNOWLEDGE.

MICHELLE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

REALLY IMPORTANT INFORMATION THERE.

AND SO FINALLY BACK TO AFGHANISTAN WHEREOF ALL THINGS THAT COULD BE LOST IN TRANSLATION, INFORMATION AND JOURNALLISM COULD BE AMONG THEM.

THEY COULD GO BACK INTO THAT DEEP, BLACK HOLE UNDERSTAND INTALIBAN IT WAS BEFORE, SO WE THOUGHT WE'D RAISE A TRIBUTE TO THE LEGENDARY AMERICAN ACTOR WHO DIED ON SUNDAY MORNING AT 91.

THE SEVEN TIME EMMY WINNER ROSE TO FAME AS THE LOVABLE TV MODEL LOU GRANT BECAUSE HE STOOD FOR REAL NEWS AND THE ABILITY OF WOMEN TO COVER IT.

THAT WAS IN THE 1970s.

HE LATER CAPTURED HEARTS IN THE COMEDY.

AND DESPITE ALL THE ACCOLADES AND ACHIEVEMENTS IT WILL SURELY BE AS A LOCAL NEWSROOM DIRECTOR ON TV HE'LL BE MOST REMEMBEREDF.

THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING ON PBS.