September 8, 2021

> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR.'

THE TALIBAN AND AMERICA'S ROLE NOW.

> THE WORLD TODAY, I HAVE TO SAY, IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN IT USED TO BE ON SEPTEMBER 10, 2001.

VITAL INTEL FROM AL QAEDA PRISONERS WITHOUT TORTURE.

GLOBAL TERROR IS FAR FROM OVER.

> FINALLY --

THE WELCOME WAGON HAS ARRIVED.

THE BREAKOUT SERIES 'TED LASSO.'

ONE OF ITS STARS ON WHY THIS WARM HUG OF A SHOW IS SUCH A HIT

'AMANPOUR'AMANPOUR' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, THE TALIBAN HAVE ISSUED STRICT NEW RULES BANNING PROTESTS WITHOUT PRIOR PERMISSION.

THIS AS AFGHAN WOMEN HAVE AGAIN TAKEN TO THE STREETS THERE TO PROTEST IN KABUL.

THIS TIME CALLING OUT THE TALIBAN'S HARD LINE NEW GOVERNMENT.

THE CABINET DOES NOT INCLUDE ANY WOMEN, AND THERE IS NO ATTEMPT TO MAKE IT INCLUSIVE WITH OTHER FACTIONS AS THE TALIBAN PROMISED.SOME HIGH PROFILE APPOS INCLUDE A KEY MEMBER OF THE NETWORK WHICH THE U.S.

DESIGNATED A TERROR GROUP.

HE HAS BEEN ON THE FBI'S MOST NOW AFGHANISTAN'S ACTING INTERIOR MINISTER.

ALL OF THIS AS THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES GRAPPLE WITH HOW TO ENGAGE THE TALIBAN, ESPECIALLY ON BEHALF OF THE AFGHAN PEOPLE AS FOOD, FINANCES AND PUBLIC SERVICES ARE ALL ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE.

JOINING ME ON ALL OF THIS IS THE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT, CHRIS MURPHY.

HE SITS ON THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE.

HE IS CHAIRMAN OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE NEAR EAST AND COUNTERTERRORISM.

HE WRAPPED UP A TOUR FROM THE REGION.SENATOR MURPHY, WELCOME . GOOD TO SEE YOU IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

LET'S START WITH THE BEGINNING.

MANY PROMISES TO AMERICAN AND OTHER OFFICIALS THAT THIS WILL BE AN INCLUSIVE GOVERNMENT.

THERE'S PROTESTS.

HOW DO YOU ENGAGE WITH THIS GROUP?

OR CONTINUE TO ENGAGE WITH THEM AS THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID HEO.

WE HAVE KNOWN WHO THE TALIBAN IS FOR 20 YEARS.

WE LISTENED TO THE PROMISES THEY MADE ABOUT BEING DIFFERENT THIS TIME AROUND.

THOSE OF WHITE HOUSE HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING AFGHANISTAN LOOKED AT ALL OF THOSE WITH A MOUNTAIN OF SALT.

LISTEN, WE HAVE NO CHOICE RIGHT NOW BUT TO BE IN A DIALOGUE WITH THE TALIBAN, WHETHER WE LIKE IT FIRST AND FOREMOST, WE HAVE PEOPLE WE NEED TO GET OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

SECOND, WE PLAN TO DO THE WORK NECESSARY TO HOLD THEM TO THEIR THEIR COMMITMENT WAS IF THEY CAME BACK INTO POWER, THEY WOULD MAKE SURE THAT AL QAEDA NEVER HAD A FOOTPRINT WITHIN WE HAVE TO BE IN A DIALOGUE TO HOLD THEM TO THAT PARTICULAR PROMISE.THAT IS ABSOLUTELY VITAO AMERICAN INTERESTS.

NOT SHOCKING THAT THIS IS A GOVERNMENT THAT LOOKS A LOT LIKE THE ONE THAT RAN AFGHANISTAN 20 YEARS AGO.

THAT'S PART OF THE REASON WE WERE THERE FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS, TRYING TO WORK TO STAND UP AN AFGHAN MILITARY AND AFGHAN GOVERNMENT THAT WOULD ACTUALLY WORK TO KEEP THE HANDS -- TO KEEP THE HANDS OF GOVERNMENT IN THE HANDS OF MORE MODERATE ELEMENTS OF AFGHAN SOCIETY.

OBVIOUSLY, THEY DIDN'T WANT TO DO THE HARD WORK NECESSARY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S CONFLICTING VIEWS ON THAT.

MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THEY DID AND WERE SOLD OUT BY THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION, STARTED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I DO ACTUALLY, IN TERMS OF THE NEGOTIATIONS WHICH CUT OUT THE GOVERNMENT, AS YOU KNOW, I WANT TO ASK YOU THEN, BECAUSE WE HAVE HAD THE HEAD OF THE GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE ON AFGHANISTAN ON OUR PROGRAM, PARTICULARLY IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE COLLAPSE.

HE HAS SAID AND MANY OTHERS HAVE LOOKED BACK AND FOUND HOW ACTUALLY THERE WAS SO MUCH OSTRICH-LIKE HEAD IN THE SAND FROM AMERICAN OFFICIALS, WHETHER THEY ARE IN CONGRESS, ON THE GROUND, IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

SOME IN THE MEDIA.

SOME POLICYMAKERS.

WANTING TO MAKE THIS SOMETHING THAT IT WASN'T.

HE TALKED ABOUT NOT A 20 YEAR WAR BUT 21 YEAR WARS.

IN OTHER WORDS, NOT EXACTLY OPTIMUM.DO YOU THINK THAT THE US SOME RESPONSIBILITY AS WELL, WHETHER IT'S CONGRESS, MILITARY, THE ROSIE PREDICTION THAT WERE PUT OUT FOR SO LONG?

WELL, LISTEN, IT'S CLEAR THAT THERE WAS INTELLIGENCE COMING OUT OF AFGHANISTAN OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST TEN YEARS TELLING AMERICAN POLICYMAKERS AND AMERICAN PRESIDENTS THAT WHEN THE UNITED STATES LEFT, THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT AND MILITARY WERE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO HOLD THE COUNTRY AGAINST THE TALIBAN.

I THINK MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION NOW IS, WHY DID WE ENGAGE IN A FANTASY FOR AN EXTRA TEN YEARS?

WHY DID WE SPEND ANOTHER TRILLION DOLLARS?

WHY DID WE SUBJECT THAT COUNTRY TO A CIVIL WAR IN WHICH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF AFGHAN CIVILIANS WERE BEING KILLED OR BADLY HURT?

WHY DID WE HAVE A LOT OF AMERICAN BLOOD SPILLED DURING THAT TIME?

LISTEN, IT'S AWFUL TO COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE UNITED STATES --

YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED THAT.

YOU ARE ON THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE.

YOU ARE A SENIOR MEMBER OF THE AMERICAN POLITICAL CLASS.

YOU ARE ON THE SENATE FOREIGN DO YOU HAVE AN ANSWER TO THOSE WHYS THAT YOU RAISED?

WELL, I CALLED FOR THE UNITED STATES TO END THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN IN 2011, TEN YEARS AGO.

I WAS ONE OF THOSE THAT SORT OF SAW OUR MISSION AS UNFORTUNATELY HOPELESS AND FIGURED IT WOULD BE BETTER TO SPEND AMERICAN TIME, ATTENTION AND RESOURCES IN OTHER PLACES.

AGAIN, THIS IS A QUESTION OF WHAT AMERICA CAN DO AND WHAT WE CAN'T DO.

THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS IN WASHINGTON WHO BELIEVE WE CAN BUILD AMERICAN-STYLE NATIONS IN VERY FAR OFF, UNFAMILIAR PLACES.

THERE'S NOT A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT WE CAN DO THAT.

AS TRAGIC AS IT HAS BEEN TO WATCH AFGHANISTAN UNWIND, HOPEFULLY, IT WILL BE A CAUTION TO THE UNITED STATES ABOUT TAKING ON MISSIONS THAT SIMPLY AREN'T ACHIEVABLE.

THEN SENATOR, WHAT HAPPENS?

AMERICA'S ENTIRE THING IS TO PROMOTE VALUES, PROMOTE DEMOCRACY, PROMOTE HUMAN RIGHTS AND HOLD VARIOUS PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE AS YOU LAID OUT REGARDING THE TALIBAN.

WHAT HAPPENS NOW?

IF AMERICA HAS COME TO THIS PLACE OF A COMPLETE 180 NOW IN ITS MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN, WHAT HAPPENS GOES FORWARD?

IS IT -- WHAT IS AMERICA'S ROLE IN THE WORLD NOW?

I THINK JOE BIDEN SEES THE FIGHT OF THE NEXT 50 YEARS AS BETWEEN AMERICAN-STYLE DEMOCRACY AND CHINESE AND RUSSIAN-STYLE AUTOCRACY.IM AND TO ME, FRANKLY, AFGHANISTAN HAD BECOME A DISTRACTION FROM THAT BROADER FIGHT.

SO THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO REALIGN RESOURCES.

AFGHANISTAN WAS BARELY A DEMOCRACY. FRANKLY WAS MAKING AA LOOK REALLY WEAK.

THE FACT THAT WE WERE SPENDING THAT MUCH MONEY WITH A PARTNER AFGHAN GOVERNMENT AND MILITARY THAT SIMPLY WEREN'T WILLING TO DO THE JOB.

WE'RE NOW ABLE TO TAKE THOSE RESOURCES AND ALL OF THAT ENERGY THAT WE SPENT ON AFGHANISTAN AND INVEST IT IN FIGHTS THAT WE ARE JUST MORE LIKELY TO WIN, WHETHER IT BE PUSHING BACK AGAINST RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA IN EASTERN EUROPE OR WORKING WITH DEMOCRACIES IN AND AROUND CHINA TO BOLSTER THEM AGAINST CHINESE WE JUST ARE IN A BETTER POSITION TO FIGHT FIGHTS THAT ACTUALLY HAVE A POTENTIAL WIN AT THE END.

AFGHANISTAN WAS JUST NOT IN THAT

EXCEPT, IT IS WHERE THE ATTACK ON THE AMERICAN HOMELAND WAS CONCEIVED AND DIRECTED.

YOU ARE ON THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE FOR THAT REGION.

YOU HAVE JUST COME BACK FROM THAT REGION AND NOT FROM RUSSIA OR CHINA.

THERE ARE MANY WHO BELIEVE THAT THAT REGION WILL BE EMPOWERED BY THE VERY FACT THAT THE UNITED STATES LEAVING AFGHANISTAN HAS ALLOWED THE WORST KIND OF ENEMIES YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS TO GET SOME INSPIRATION. DO PEOPLE IN LEBANN TUNISIA OR IN ISRAEL, WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN SAYING TO YOU?

LET'S TAKE TUNISIA WHERE YOU ARE TRYING TO PUSH A RETURN TO DEMOCRACY OVER THE CURRENT EMERGENCY LAWS THAT ARE UNDERWAY THERE.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE STILL TAKEN SERIOUSLY?

ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IDEA THAT TERRORISTS WEREN'T ENABLED BY THE AMERICAN OCCUPATION OF AFGHANISTAN, THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT IN PARTS OF PAKISTAN, WHERE WE WERE DROPPINN RECRUITMENT CENTERS FOR EVERY TALIBAN FIGHTER WE KILLED, WE RECRUITED TWO OR THREE MORE.

OUR OCCUPATION OF THESE COUNTRIES CERTAINLY ALLOWS US TO HAVE A CLOSER CHASE OF THE BAD GUYS.

BUT IT ALSO FEEDS THEIR NARRATIVE. BOOSTS THEIR RECRUITT DRIVES.THIS IDEA THAT THE ONLY T YOU DEFEAT TERRORISM IS WITH U.S. MILITARY OCCUPATION ABROAD IS NONSENSE.CT IT.

IN THE MEDITERRANEAN, CERTAINLY PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT WHETHER THE WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN SUGGESTS A BROADER AMERICAN PULLOUT FROM THE WORLD.

MY ARGUMENT WAS, IT'S EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.

IT ALLOWS THE AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY ESTABLISHMENT -- THE STATE DEPARTMENT, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, TO INVEST IN OTHER FIGHTS THAT ARE WINNABLE.

TUNISIA IS A WINNABLE FIGHT RIGHT NOW.

IT'S EARLY DEMOCRACY THAT'S GOING THROUGH A BIT OF A CRISIS TODAY.

WHEN HALF OF YOUR DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE AND STATE DEPARTMENT IS TIED UP WITH IRAN AND AFGHANISTAN, IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU RESOURCES TO HELP BUILD A FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY IN A PLACE LIKE TUNISIA.

BY GETTING OUT OF AFGHANISTAN, WE WILL BE A STRONGER PARTNER FOR PEACE AND DEMOCRACY THROUGHOUT OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

LET'S END WITH ISRAEL.

THE NEW PRIME MINISTER WAS AT THE WHITE HOUSE NOT SO LONG AGO.

IT'S NO SECRET THE FORMER WAS A THORN IN THE SIDE OF THE U.S.

ADMINISTRATION, CERTAINLY ON THE RECENT DEMOCRATS, BECAUSE HE DID NOT LIKE, FOR INSTANCE, THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL, WHICH THE U.S.

PROMOTED AND FELT WAS BENEFICIAL.

WHAT DID YOU HEAR FROM BENNETT ON HOW THEY PLAN TO ENGAGE WITH THE UNITED STATES, WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION, ON IRAN AND ON THE TWO STATE SOLUTION AND THE OTHER ISSUES THAT ARE SO IMPORTANT TO YOU?

PRIME MINISTER'S RELATIONSHIP WAS NOT -- IT'S IMPORTANT WE KEEP IT OUT OF POLITICS.

I HAVE DISAGREEMENTS WITH BENNETT'S VISION OF THE FUTURE.

HE DOES NOT SUPPORT ALESTINIAN . IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THIS GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN SOME REALLY IMPORTANT STEPS.

ONE, TO DO OUTREACH WITH THE PALESTINIANS.E FIRST GOVERNMENTO GOVERNMENT MEETINGS AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS IN OVER A DECADE.

THEY HAVE BEGUN TO OPEN UP HUMANITARIAN PATHWAYS INTO GAZA TO RELIEVE THE SUFFERING IN A WAY THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT WOULD HAVE NEVER CONTEMPLATED.

THIS IS A UNIQUE COALITION GOVERNMENT.AVE LITTLE ROOM TO MANEUVER SINCE THEY ARE SUCH AN INTERESTING STITCH OF RIGHT WING AND LEFT LEANING PARTIES.

I LEFT PRETTY IMPRESSED WITH THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE GOVERNMENT AND SOME OF THE EARLY STEPS THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN TO LOWER THE TEMPERATURE IN THE RELATIONSHIP WITH PALESTINIANS AND IN ISRAEL.

ONE VERY QUICK QUESTION.

I HAVE TO BECAUSE I'M SURE AFGHAN PEOPLE ARE LISTENING AROUND THE WORLD AND WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, HOW THE U.S. WILL AND CONGRESS APPROVE FUNDS AND HUMANITARIAN AID.

WE HEAR ALL THOSE MOST IMPORTANT BASIC SERVICES ARE ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE.

THE TALIBAN HAS NO IDEA WHAT TO.

ARE YOU GOING TO APPROVE AID, WHETHER IT'S THE TALIBAN THERE OR NOT?

IN A COUNTRY THAT BIG, I THINK THERE'S A LIMIT TO WHAT THE UNITED STATES CAN DO WITHOUT A GOVERNMENT THAT'S A TRUE PARTNER.IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT OD WOULD MOVE THROUGH NGOs, NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS.

THERE'S PLENTY OF EXAMPLES AROUND THE WORLD IN WHICH WE DON'T HAVE A WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE GOVERNMENT BUT WE CONTINUE TO FLOW HUMANITARIAN AID INTO THE COUNTRY.

GAZA AN EXAMPLE.

THAT CERTAINLY IS A VIABLE PATHWAY IN AFGHANISTAN AND ONE THAT MANY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WILL BE OPEN TO.

LIFE AND DEATH.

SENATOR MURPHY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

> WHETHER IT'S AFGHANISTAN OR ISRAEL OR TUNISIA OR IRAN, THAT REGION IS A VITAL AREA OF CONCERN FOR THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD.

LISTENING IN ON THAT CONVERSATION HAS BEEN COREY SHOCKY.SHE HELD SEVERAL TOP JOBE UNITED STATES DEFENSE AND STATE DEPARTMENT.SHE'S WORKED AS A FOY ADVISOR TO SENATOR McCAIN'S 2008 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

LATE SENATOR.

SHE IS CURRENTLY THE DIRECTOR OF FOREIGN AND DEFENSE POLICY AT THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, WHICH WAS THE BRAINCHILD FOR THE 2003 U.S. WAR IN IRAQ.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET'S JUST PARK THE FACT THAT IRAQ TURNED OUT TO BE A DEBACLE.

WITH THE DRAWL WAS A DEBACLE.

BROUGHT ISIS INTO POWER THERE.

LET ME ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK OF THE ROBUST DEFENSE OF CURRENT ADMINISTRATION POLICY RAISED BY SENATOR MURPHY, THAT THE IDEA THAT OCCUPYING A LAND SUCH AS AFGHANISTAN AND THEN NOT HAD ANY IMPACT ON TERRORISM OR INSPIRING MILITANTS OR THE LIKE WOULD BE RIDICULOUS.

WHERE DO YOU SEE WHAT'S JUST HAPPENED IN THOSE TERMS?

I THINK THAT THE COUNTCOUNTERPOINT TO SENATOR MURPHY IS HE SAID BECAUSE WE WERE FIGHTING TERRORISM, IT CREATED MORE TERRORISTS.

THE ALTERNATIVE EXPLANATION IS MAYBE THERE WOULD JUST BE MORE TERRORISTS WHETHER OR NOT WE WERE DOING THIS.

IT DOES SEEM TO ME THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN SAFER IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE SEPTEMBER 11, 2001 ATTACKS, NOT ONLY BECAUSE WE BEGAN TO PLAY BETTER DEFENSE, BETTER PROTECTION OF OUR COUNTRY, BETTER SCREENING OF INDIVIDUALS, BUT ALSO BECAUSE WE WERE TARGETING TERRORISTS, BUILDING INTELLIGENCE AND ACTION NETWORKS AROUND THE WORLD TO KEEP THEM WORRYING AND ON THE RUN AND LESS ABLE TO PLOT ATTACKS ON US.

THAT WILL GET MORE CHALLENGING, THAT WILL GET HARDER WITH OUR WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN.

THE NOTION THAT YOU CAN HAVE OVER THE HORIZON COUNTERTERRORISM EXACERBATES PUBLIC FRUSTRATION IN THOSE COUNTRIES WHEN WE ARE JUST DROPPING IN BY DRONE AND KILLING PEOPLE AND NOT DOING ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE AND POSITIVE TO ADVANCE GOVERNANCE AND HUMAN RIGHTS IN THIS COUNTRY.

ALSO, YOU WON'T HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE NETWORKS TO DO IT WITH ANY PRECISION.

THAT SIDE WILL SAY WE TRIED AND FAILED BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT TO.

YOU HEARD SENATOR MURPHY.

YOU HEARD THE PRESIDENT SAY, NEITHER THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT NOR FORCES WHICH HAD TRILLIONS OF AMERICAN DOLLARS IN TRAINING SPENT ON THEM ACTUALLY STOOD UP.

I THINK THAT'S DISGRACEFUL.

I ACTUALLY THINK IT'S DISGRACEFUL FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, AFTER 20 YEARS OF AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT IN AFGHANISTAN, TO SAY WE BEAR NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT HAPPENS NOW THAT WE ARE WRITING IT OFF AND TO SUGGEST THAT AN AFGHAN MILITARY AND POLICE FORCE THAT SUFFERED 68,000 DEAD IN ORDER TO TRY AND FIGHT FOR WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO CREATE WITH THEM, THAT SOMEHOW THIS IS THEIR FAILURE AND WE DESERVE TO BE EXALTED FOR BEING SMART ENOUGH TO WRITE OFF THEIR FUTURE.

I THINK THAT'S DISRESPECTFUL TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEARING THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE POLICYRT.

HOW MUCH RESPONSIBILITY DO YOU THINK -- NOT YOU PRECISELY, BUT THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, THOSE WHO DECIDED TO MOVE FROM THE LEGITIMATE GOALS IN AFGHANISTAN, TO RESPOND TO AN ATTACK ON THE HOMELAND AND WENT OFF ON SOME HALF COCKED IDEA THAT IRAN WAS A GREAT PLACE TO END UP?

TONY BLAIR SAID, WE HAVE TO RESPOND AND WE WILL HELP AMERICA DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST 9/11.

THEN LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID.

THERE HAS TO BE AN AGENDA THAT INFORMS THE WHOLE OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY OF DISMANTLING INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM, HOW IT'S FINANCED, HOW THEY MOVE ABOUT THE WORLD, THE COUNTRIES THAT HARBOR THEM AND GIVE THEM HELP, AT EVERY SINGLE LEVEL, WE HAVE TO PURSUE AND DISMANTLE THIS MACHINERY OF TERROR.

THREE OR FOUR DAYS AFTER 9/11, HE ENVISIONED WESTERN POLICY. AFTER TERRORISM BASED ON FALSE PREMISE.

WE KNOW THAT'S THE CASE.

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WAS THAT YOU ARE STILL AT THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, YOU ARE THERE NOW.

WHAT IS THE CONSERVATIVE PLAYBOOK FOR WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE?

AMERICA DEFENDING AND RAISING THE KIND OF IDEALS IT HAS DONE AND PROTECT THE INSTITUTIONS THAT IT CREATED IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

I WENT TO WORK IN THE BUSH WHITE HOUSE NOT LONG AFTER SEPTEMBER 11th.

MY STRONGEST IMPRESSION WAS HOW FRIGHTENED PEOPLE WERE, HOW FEARFUL THEY WERE THAT THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE DIMENSIONS OF THE TERRORIST THREAT.

I THINK WE MADE A LOT OF BAD POLICY CHOICES OUT OF FEAR AND OUT OF IGNORANCE ABOUT THE NATURE AND MAGNITUDE OF THE WE ARE GOING TO BEAR THE BURDEN OF THOSE CHOICES FOR A VERY LONG I AGREE WITH YOUR JUDGMENT THAT THE DECISION TO INVADE IRAQ WAS A MISTAKE OF HISTORIC DIMENSIONS.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERYTHING WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO IS A MISTAKE.

WHAT I THINK WE DID IN THE AFTERMATH OF SEPTEMBER 11th THAT WAS CONSEQUENTIAL WAS BECAUSE WE WERE FEARFUL, WE WERE TRYING TO.

IN FACT, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT AMERICAN POWER, ESPECIALLY SINCE 1945, WORKS BEST WHEN WE EMPHASIZE THE MAGETISM OF AMERICAN IDEALS AND SUCCESSES.

THE TRANSPARENCY THAT JOURNALISTS IMPOSE ON US.

WE DO OUR BEST SHAPING OF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER WHEN WE CREATE RULES THAT OTHER COUNTRIES ALSO SEE ARE IN THEIR INTEREST.ON'T HAVE TO COERCE THM INTO COOPERATING WITH US.

IT'S IN THEIR INTEREST.

THAT IS HOW WE HAVE DRAWN TOGETHER MULTILATERAL ORGANIZATIONS, ALLIANCES THAT BOTH STRENGTHEN AND AMPLIFY AMERICAN POWER IN THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER.

WE NEED TO GET BACK TO PLAYING TEAM SPORTS RELIABLY.

THAT'S WHY SENATOR MURPHY AND PRESIDENT BIDEN INSIST WE PUT HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY PROMOTION AT THE CENTER OF OUR FOREIGN POLICY WHILE ABANDONING AFGHANISTAN SENDS A VERY CONFUSING MESSAGE AND AN UNHELPFUL ONE.

AGAIN, YOU ARE RIGHT.

I COVERED SUCCESS IT WILL HUMANITARIAN INTERVENTIONS.

EVENTUALLY, THE U.S. IN BOSNIA TO STOP A GENOCIDE, IN KOSOVO TO PREVENT ONE.

BRITISH INTERVENTION IN SIERRA LEONE TO STOP THE WAR THAT WENT ON THERE.

THERE ARE MANY SUCCESSFUL RECENT INTERVENTIONS.OU PICK AND CHOOS?

HOW DOES A SUPERPOWER LIKE THE UNITED STATES, WHICH HAS BECOME SUPREMELY MILITARIZED, ASKING FOR MORE MONEY FROM CONGRESS, THE WHOLE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX HAS DEFINED THE POST 9/11 ERA, HOW DO YOU SWITCH FROM THAT BACK TO WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, TO A SUPERPOWER THAT SHOULD STILL BE ENERGIZED TO UPHOLD ALL THE CORRECT IDEALS, THE VALUES THAT WE HAVE ALL GROWN UP BEING TAUGHT TO RESPECT?

I DISAGREE WITH YOUR CHARACTERIZATION THAT THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX ISIN THERE ARE LEGITIMATE CHALLENGES THAT WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO DEFEND OURSELVES AGAINST AND TO BE MILITARILY STRONG ENOUGH THAT WE DETER.

I WOULD VERY MUCH HOPE THAT CHINA LOOKING AT THE DESIRE TO RETAKE TAIWAN FEARS THAT THEY COULDN'T DO IT BECAUSE OF AMERICAN AND ALLIED MILITARY STRENGTH.

THAT'S NOT -- MILITARY SPENDING ISN'T AMERICA'S PROBLEM.

WE CAN SUSTAIN 3.5% OR 4% OF GDP AS A REASONABLE BALANCE.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE'RE NOT DOING THE OTHER STUFF TO THE SAME LEVEL OF EXCELLENCE THAT WE DO OUR DEFENSE POLICY AND OUR DEFENSE STRUCTURING.

WE NEED A BIGGER, MORE CAPABLE AMERICAN DIPLOMATIC CORPS.

PEOPLE COME INTO THE UNITED STATES SPEAKING 137 DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.

WE CAN HIRE FOR LANGUAGE SKILL AND CULTURAL SKILL.

WE CAN TEACH THEM STRATEGY.

WE CAN SEND THEM OUT IN NUMBERS TO SUPPORT LOCAL INITIATIVES THAT ADVANCE HUMAN DIGNITY, THAT EXPAND HUMAN OPPORTUNITY, THAT MAKE THE WORLD A FREER AND SAFER PLACE.EED TO INVEST IN THE NON-MILITARY TOOLS TO THE SAME EXTENT WE INVEST IN THE MILITARY TOOLS.THERE I THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS THE RIGHT MESSAGE.

I VERY MUCH HOPE THAT SENATOR MURPHY AND HIS CONGRESSIONAL COLLEAGUES WILL PUT MONEY AGAINST THOSE CHALLENGES.

WE NEED IT.

WE ALSO NEED THE VIBRANCY OF AMERICAN CIVIL SOCIETY.

I THINK WHAT YOU SAW IN THE EVACUATIONS IN AFGHANISTAN WAS AN ENORMOUS FAILURE OF THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT.

A REALLY HOPEFUL MESSAGE OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL SOCIETY MOBILIZING ITSELF AND ORGANIZING TO HELP PEOPLE WHO DESERVE OUR

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

OF COURSE, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TOUTED THE AIRLIFT AS ONE OF THE GREATEST ACTS OF HUMANITARIAN RESCUE IN HISTORY.IT DID TURN OUT THAT ONY MINORITY OF THE MORE THAN OF 120,000 WHO WERE EVACUATED WERE AMERICAN PERSONNEL AND NOT AFGHAN CIVILIANS.

AROUND 8,000 AFGHANS HAVE BEEN RELOCATED HERE IN THE UK IN RECENT WEEKS.

MORE THAN HALF OF THEM ARE CHILDREN.

ONE FAMILY FACES A TOUGH PATH.

A 20-YEAR-OLD, WHO IS A BRITISH CITIZEN, HAS FOUGHT TO GET HER SIX YOUNG UNDOCUMENTED COUSINS ON AN EVACUATION FLIGHT WITH HER OUT OF KABUL.

NOW BARELY AN ADULT HERSELF, SHE MUST CARE FOR THEM AS THEY ESTABLISH A NEW LIFE HERE IN THE UK.

HERE IS PHIL BLACK WITH THEIR

IT'S DIFFICULT TO COMPREHEND WHAT THESE CHILDREN ARE FEELING.

FEAR.

LONELINESS.

TRAUMA.

THESE SIX BOYS AND GIRLS, 5 TO 17, FROM THREE DIFFERENT FAMILIES, HAVE BEEN TRANSPORTED FROM THE DESPERATE STREETS OF KABUL TO A SMALL ENGLISH TOWN.

THEY HAVE LEFT BEHIND EVERYTHING THEY KNOW AND LOVE.

INCLUDING THEIR PARENTS.

THEY ARE AT LEAST SAFE, BECAUSE OF THEIR COUSIN'S EXTRAORDINARY COURAGE.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.

THEY CRY EVERY DAY?

THEY CRY EVERY DAY.

ESPECIALLY WITH THEIR PARENTS, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

SHE'S 20.

A BRITISH CITIZEN WHO WAS VISITING FAMILY IN KABUL AS THE TALIBAN TOOK THE CAPITAL.

IN 24 HOURS, IT'S LIKE THE WORLD FLIPPED.

SHE KNEW HER WHOLE FAMILY WAS SUDDENLY IN DANGER, BECAUSE THEY ARE A GROUP LONG PERSECUTED IN AFGHANISTAN AND OFTEN MASSACRED BY THE TALIBAN.

THE FIRST ENEMY FOR THE TALIBAN ARE US.

SHE HEADED FOR THE AIRPORT SAVE THEM.OUSINS, DETERMINED TO THIS VIDEO SHOWS PART OF THEIR JOURNEY.

HER UNCLE IS DRIVING.

HE TELLS THE CHILDREN, DON'T BE SCARED, NOTHING WILL HAPPEN.

HOURS LATER, HE WOULD BE DEAD.

VIDEO CAPTURED BY OTHER PEOPLE ON THE SAME DAY SHOWS THE CHAOS THEY WERE HEADING INTO AROUND THE AIRPORT.

THEY PUSHED THROUGH THE CROWD.

HER UNCLE WAS TRYING TO CLEAR A PATH WHEN HE WAS SHOT.

HE JUST FELL?

HE JUST FELL.

GO SHOT IN THE HEART.

SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THE BULLET CAME FROM OR WHAT TO DO.

SHE TOOK THIS PICTURE AS HE LAY DYING.

HE SAID, GO.

THAT'S LAST THING HE SAID.

HE SAID, GO.

AND I WENT.

DID YOU LOOK BACK?

SHE KEPT THE CHIRP MOVING, EVENTUALLY APPROACHING SOME AMERICAN SOLDIERS.

I SAID, I'M A BRITISH CITIZEN.THEY SAID, WHO ARE THEY?

THEY DIDN'T HAVE DOCUMENTS, NOTHING.

THEY SAID -- I SAID THAT THESE ARE MY KIDS.

I HAVE ADOPTED THEM.

YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHICH WAY IT WOULD GO?

NO.

IT WAS A SCENE WHERE IF THEY DON'T GO, EVEN ONE OF THEM, IF THEY DON'T GO, I'M BACK.

I'M NOT GOING AS WELL.

YOU MEANT THAT?

YEAH.

I EXPLAINED IT TO THEM.

THE SOLDIER LOOKED AT ME IN THE FACE, GO.

THAT ENORMOUS RELIEF OF SAVING SIX YOUNG LIVES IS NOW OVERWHELMED BY RESPONSIBILITY.

THE YOUNGEST, JUST 5, IS DEEPLY ANXIOUS ABOUT HIS PARENTS.

HE IS LIKE, THEY ARE GOING TO KILL US FIRST.

THIS IS WHAT HE IS TELLING ME.

CHILDREN GROW UP IN AFGHANISTAN KNOWING THAT TALIBAN MEANS DEATH?

YEAH.

THIS YOUNG WOMAN'S LIFE IS ON HOLD AS SHE CARES FOR THE CHILDREN.

SOOTHS THEIR NIGHTMARES.

TRIES TO CONVINCE THEM THEY WILL SEE THEIR PARENTS AGAIN.

PHIL BLACK THERE ON THE INCREASINGLY DESPERATE HUMAN STORY FOR SO MANY AFGHANS.

THE BIG QUESTION IS WHETHER AFGHANISTAN WILL AGAIN BECOME A TERRORIST SAFE HAVEN.

FEW PEOPLE KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS THAN OUR NEXT GUEST.

HE IS A FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT WHO MADE HIS NAME INVESTIGATING AL QAEDA PLOTS BEFORE 9/11 AND HIS TORTURE FREE INTERROGATION OF SUSPECTS AFTERWARDS.

HE TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN THIS TERRORISM ERA IS FAR FROM OVER AND THAT POTENTIALLY A MORE DANGEROUS PHASE HAS JUST BEGUN.

THANKS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, THE UNITED STATES HAS CONCLUDED ITS WITHDRAWAL OF GROUND TROOPS FROM AFGHANISTAN.N THE COMMEMORATIONF THE 9/11 ATTACKS.

20 YEARS ON, AFTER ALL THAT'S GONE ON IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS, IS THIS COUNTRY SAFER THAN IT WAS BEFORE?

UNFORTUNATELY, MICHELLE, WE WENT BACK A FULL CIRCLE.

THE WORLD TODAY, I HAVE TO SAY, IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN IT USED TO BE ON SEPTEMBER 10, 2001.

AFGHANISTAN IS NOT THE ONLY LAWLESS REGION CONTROLLED BY MILITANTS WHO ARE ANTI-AMERICAN.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE MAP TODAY, 20 YEARS AFTER 9/11, WE HAVE LARGE SWATHS OF LAND ALL THE WAY FROM THE WESTERN SHORES OF AFRICA TO AFGHANISTAN THAT CONTROL BY MILITIA, NON-STATE ACTORS, SOME OF WHOM ARE CONSIDERED TERRORISTS BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND BY THE UNITED I THINK THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS.

NOW WE HAVE MANY AFGHANISTANS IN LIBYA AND YEMEN AND IN SOMALIA, IN MALI, NORTH NIGERIA.

THE WORLD IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN IT USED TO BE BEFORE, WE NEED TO DEAL WITH THIS WE CANNOT IGNORE IT LIKE WE IGNORED IT YEARS AND YEARS, LIKE THE DECADE BEFORE 9/11.

I THINK IF WE IGNORE IT, WE CAN IGNORE IT IN OUR PERIL.

IS THIS BECAUSE OF THE SO-CALLED WAR ON TERROR?

IS THIS METASTASIZING OF THE TERRORIST THREAT?

IS THAT IN YOUR OPINION BECAUSE OF THE SO-CALLED WAR OR TERROR?

ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO SO-CALLED WAR ON TERROR.

IN DECEMBER OF 2001, EARLY 2002, I WAS IN AFGHANISTAN AS PART OF THE FIRST GROUP THAT WENT THERE IN ORDER TO DESTROY AL QAEDA AND THEIR NETWORK.

I REMEMBER I WAS FULL OF HOPE.

THE WORLD WAS BEHIND THE UNITED STATES.

MUSLIM WORLD SUPPORTED THE UNITED STATES.

EVERYBODY WAS TOGETHER, JOINED HAND IN HAND IN ORDER TO GET RID OF THE EVIL THAT MURDERED MORE THAN 3,000 AMERICANS ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001.

LATER, WE STARTED TO SEE THAT KIND OF GOOD WILL FADE.

AT THE END OF 2002, I REMEMBER I WAS IN KABUL.

I REALIZED, WE ARE LOSING THE WAR.

WE LOST THE WAR WHEN AL QAEDA AND TALIBAN WERE REGROUPING.

ORDERS WERE COMING FROM WASHINGTON FOR RESOURCES ON THE GROUND TO MOVE FROM AFGHANISTAN TO START PREPARING FOR THE IRAQ WAR.

BY THEN, AL QAEDA AND THE TALIBAN WERE ON THE VERGE OF DEFEAT, ON THE VERGE OF WE BROUGHT THEM BACK WITH OUR INVASION OF IRAQ, A COUNTRY THAT HAS NOTHING DO WITH 9/11, AND I THINK IT JUST SENT A MESSAGE TO THE MUSLIM WORLD THAT AL QAEDA AND THE MILITANTS ARE RIGHT, WE ARE THERE TO INVADE THE MUSLIM WORLD AND STEAL THE RESOURCES OF YOU WILL SEE THE UNITED STATES HAVE NO EMBASSY IN LIBYA, NO EMBASSY IN YEMEN, NO EMBASSY IN SYRIA.

NOW WE HAVE NO EMBASSY IN KABUL, IN AFGHANISTAN.

IN IRAQ, WE ARE FORCED TO TOLERATE POLITICAL LEADERS WHO WORK WITH IRAN AND WORK WITH IRANIAN GROUPS THAT'S CONSIDERED BY THE UNITED STATES TERRORIST I THINK THIS IS THE REALITY WE LIVE IN.

THIS IS WHAT THE WAR ON TERROR PRODUCED.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE LAST 20 YEARS, THE WORLD SAW AMERICA AT ITS WORST.

I THINK IF WE NEED TO CLAIM OUR POSITION IN THE WORLD, WE HAVE TO START SHOWING THE WORLD AMERICA AT ITS BEST.

WAS THERE ONE FATAL ERROR?

WAS IT A SERIES OF ERRORS?

DO YOU TRACE THIS FAILURE TO THE DECISION TO MOVE INTO IRAQ?

IS THAT REALLY THE CORE?

WAS THERE A SERIES OF BAD DECISIONS? THINK THE WAR IN IRAA PIVOTAL POINT THAT SHIFTED THE FOCUS ON -- FROM AL QAEDA AND THE PEOPLE WHO ATTACKED US ON 9/11 TO SOMETHING THAT NOBODY UNDERSTOOD AROUND THE WORLD.

ESPECIALLY IN THE MUSLIM WORLD.

THEN AFTER THAT, A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED LATER.

FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE THE TORTURE PROGRAM.

THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

WE FIGHT FOR FREEDOM.

WE FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY.

HERE WE ARE, THIS IS IMAGES, SEE AMERICA, THIS IS THE REAL I THINK WE STARTED TO DO A LOT OF THINGS THAT VIOLATE WHO WE ARE AS A NATION, VIOLATE OUR VALUES, OUR MORAL CHARACTER, OUR WE START RUNNING WARS AROUND THE WORLD WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THE COMPLEXITY OF HOW THE WORLD IS.

WE JUST WANTED TO BASICALLY GO ABOUT HOW WE THOUGHT THE WORLD OUGHT TO BE.

UNFORTUNATELY, 20 YEARS LATER, THE EVENTS THAT UNFOLDED IN AFGHANISTAN JUST LAST WEEK SHOWED US THAT WE ARE WRONG.

WE CANNOT JUST VIEW EVERY PROBLEM IN THE WORLD AS A MILITARY PROBLEM JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE THE STRONGEST MILITARY ON EARTH.

I DO WANT TO ASK ABOUT THE LAST SORT OF 20 YEARS.

BECAUSE THESE DECISIONS CARRIED THROUGH, AS YOU POINTED OUT, TO MULTIPLE ADMINISTRATIONS OF DIFFERENT POLITICAL PARTIES.

I WANT TO START WITH THE GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION.

IS IT YOUR CONTENTION THAT THE ADMINISTRATION WENT INTO IRAQ KNOWING THAT THE PREMISE THAT THEY WERE ESPOUSING WAS A LIE?

WAS IT A LIE OR MISTAKE?

I THINK IT WAS A LIE.

I THINK THEY KNEW IT WAS A LIE.

WE KNEW THERE WAS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN HUSSEIN AND AL QAEDA.

WE KNEW THAT.

I REMEMBER WHEN THE DEBATE WAS IN FBI HEADQUARTERS ABOUT THIS.

THE DECISION WAS -- WE TOLD THE ADMINISTRATION THE TRUTH BECAUSE IN THE FBI, WE PRESENT THE TRUTH.

WE DON'T PRESENT LIES TO MANUFACTURE WHITE HOUSE WARS.

THAT WAS A QUOTE THAT SOME PEOPLE USED.

THE INFORMATION WAS RESULT OF TORTURE.

THEY CAUGHT A GUY, TORTURED HIM AND BECAUSE OF TORTURE, HE TOLD THEM ABOUT THE LINK BETWEEN AL QAEDA AND BETWEEN SADDAM AND HOW BOTH ARE WORKING TOGETHER.

THAT INFORMATION WENT ALL THE WAY TO THE UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL IN THE FAMOUS SECRETARY POWELL SPEECH.

THEY WENT BACK AFTER WE INVADED IRAQ AND WE FOUND OUT NONE IS BASICALLY, HE SAID, YOU WERE TORTURING ME.

I GAVE YOU WHAT YOU WANTED TO HEAR.

THAT'S SHOCKING.

THAT'S SHOCKING.

THE ADMINISTRATION AT THE TIME WANTED TO GO TO INVADE IRAQ.

THEY WERE TRYING TO FIND ANY REASON, ANY SOURCE THAT CAN TELL THEM, YES, THERE'S SOMETHING IN IRAQ SO WE CAN JUSTIFY OUR INVASION.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT IT WAS A MISTAKE.

I BELIEVE IT WAS A HUGE LIE THAT RESULTED IN THIS DISASTROUS ADVENTURE IN IRAQ THAT DESTABLED THE MIDDLE EAST.

THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, THE CURRENT PRESIDENT WAS A PART, WAS A KEY PART.

WHAT WAS THEIR ROLE IN PERPETUATING THIS MISTAKE, WHICH WAS AS YOU PUT IT, BASED ON A LIE?

WE DID NOT REALIZE OR THAT ADMINISTRATION DID NOT WANT TO BELIEVE THE REALITY ON THE GROUND IN AFGHANISTAN.

THE TALIBAN STARTED TO BE IN THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT WAS NOTHING BUT A CORRUPT GROUP OF PEOPLE PUSHING AWAY FROM THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT TOWARDS THE TALIBAN AROUND AFGHANISTAN.

THE MILITARY, WITH THE TROOPS THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID DID A GOOD JOB IN MAINTAINING THE SECURITY, CREATING A SECURE ENVIRONMENT FOR THE DIPLOMATS, CAN GET ENGAGED TO COME UP WITH A POLITICAL SOLUTION.

UNFORTUNATELY, THEY SENT MILITARY, BULLETS, BUT THEY NEVER SEND DIPLOMATS.

WE NEVER HAD A POLITICAL STRATEGY ON HOW TO MOVE FORWARD.

THAT'S A MISTAKE ALSO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION DID WHEN IT COMES TO AFGHANISTAN.

TRUMP?

OH, MY GOD.

WHERE DO YOU WANT TO START?

FIRST OF ALL, NEGOTIATING WITH THE TALIBAN AND IGNORING THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT SENDS A VERY BAD MESSAGE.

RECOGNIZING THE TALIBAN, SENDING HIS SECRETARY OF STATE TO MEET WITH THE TALIBAN LEADERSHIP IN QATAR.

AFTER THAT, BASICALLY SAYING HOW THE TALIBAN ARE SMART, GREAT PEOPLE AND HE WANTED TO INVITE THEM TO THE WHITE HOUSE BEFORE 9/11, IF YOU REMEMBER.

THEN PUSHING THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT TO RELEASE 5,000 TALIBAN WARRIORS THAT THE TALIBAN USED TO TAKE OVER AFGHANISTAN LATER ON.

A LOT OF THESE KIND OF THINGS HAPPENED UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.AVE A BAD DEAL TT HAPPENED NOW, IT'S BECAUSE OF THE NEGOTIATIONS AND BECAUSE OF WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DID.

MY CRITICISM OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THAT IF SOMEBODY GIVE YOU A BAD DEAL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE IT.

YOU HAVE BEEN IN OFFICE FOR 100 DAYS, MORE THAN 100 DAYS.

YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO LEAVE AFGHANISTAN.T PREPARING FROM DA.

GIVEN THAT PRESENTED A DIRE PICTURE.LET'S BE HONEST.

YOU SAY THE TERRORISM THREAT -- YOU DON'T CALL IT -- THE THREAT OF TERRORISM IS ENTERING A MORE DANGEROUS PHASE NOW FOR ALL THE REASONS THAT YOU HAVE LAID OUT TO US.

WHAT NOW?

WHAT SHOULD THE BIDENNOW?

WE HAVE A LOT OF TOOLS IN OUR TOOLBOX.

DIPLOMACY, AID, ECONOMY, TRADE, CULTURAL ENGAGEMENT.

WE NEED TO PUT ALL THESE THINGS TOGETHER IN ORDER TO SOLVE, TO MOUNT A DIPLOMATIC INITIATIVE TO SOLVE ALL THESE CONFLICTS THAT'S HAPPENING AROUND THE MIDDLE EAST.

LOOK AT LIBYA.

THE UNITED STATES CAN DO SO MUCH TO STOP THE CONFLICT IN LIBYA.

ALL THE FACTIONS IN LIBYA THAT REPORT TO QATAR OR TURKEY OR SAUDI ARABIA OR TO FRANCE OR TO ITALY.THESE REGIONAL COUNTRIES E ENGAGED IN LIBYA.

ALL OF THEM ARE ALLIES TO THE UNITED STATES.

WHY DON'T WE START AN INITIATIVE TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM IN LIBYA?

LIBYA IS ON THE PATH TO BE A SIMILAR TO AFGHANISTAN, RULED BY NON-STATE ACTORS.

SOME ARE AFFILIATED WITH TERRORIST GROUPS AND VIOLENT MILITIAS.

LOOK AT THE SITUATION IN YEMEN.

WE NEED TO FIND A SOLUTION FOR WE SPENT HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON COUNTERTERRORISM.

TODAY, WE DON'T HAVE AN EMBASSY THERE.

EVERY TIME WE SHUT DOWN OUR EMBASSY IT AN AREA, SOMEBODY ELSE IS TAKING THE VACUUM.

YOU ARE SAYING MORE ENGAGEMENT, NOT LESS?

ABSOLUTELY, MORE ENGAGEMENT.

WE ALWAYS MIX ENGAGEMENT AND MILITARY POWER.

MANY OF THESE COUNTRIES HAVE DIFFERENT REASONS, CULTURAL, ECONOMIC, POLITICAL, TRIBAL, THAT'S ALLOWING THIS CONFLICT TO HAPPEN IN THAT SPECIFIC REGION.

MALI HAS A LOT TO DO WITH THE ENVIRONMENT, TO DO WITH GLOBAL WARMING AND THE LACK OF RESOURCES, LACK OF WATER.

IN YEMEN, YOU CAN MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT YEMEN IS RUNNING OUT OF WATER AS WELL.

BEFORE 9/11, AL QAEDA HAD 400 MEMBERS WHO TOOK AN OATH TO OSAMA BIN LADEN.

TODAY, AL QAEDA ALONE IS MORE THAN 40,000.

WHY IS THAT?

FIRST OF ALL, WE NEVER COUNTERED THE IDEOLOGY, WE NEVER HAD A PROGRAM TO COUNTER THE IDEOLOGY.

NUMBER TWO, AL QAEDA'S NUMBERS WENT UP WHEN WE STARTED SEEING ALL THESE CONFLICTS HAPPENING IN THE REGION.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN YEMEN, A PERFECT BEFORE THE WAR IN YEMEN, AL QAEDA PROBABLY, 800, 900 PEOPLE.

TODAY IT'S ABOUT 8,000 PEOPLE.

THE 8,000 MEMBERS OF AL QAEDA I DON'T BELIEVE ALL ARE IDEOLOGICALLY MOTIVATED BY THE NARRATIVES OF OSAMA BIN LADEN.

THEIR TRIBES WANT SECURITY, SAFETY.

THEY WANT PROTECTION.

THEY WANT RESOURCES GIVEN TO THEM.

THEY HAVE NO OTHER OPTION.

AL QAEDA IS THE ONLY ONE ON THE GROUND DOING THESE THINGS.

THAT NUMBER GOES UP TREMENDOUSLY.

WE HAVE BEEN FOCUSED ON ISLAMIC EXTREMIST MOVEMENTS.

THIS HAS BEEN A VERY BIG FOCUS.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT IN THE UNITED STATES IN RECENT YEARS, WHITE NATIONAL RADICAL MOVEMENTS HAVE ENGAGED IN A GREAT DEAL OF VIOLENCE, HAVE KILLED MANY PEOPLE AND ALSO SEEM TO HAVE A TRANS-NATIONAL FLAVOR.

DO YOU SEE A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THIS RISE -- MAYBE NOTICE UNITED STATES A RETURN OF WHITE TERRORIST MOVEMENTS OR WHITE EXTREMIST MOVEMENTS, WHITE IDENTITY MOVEMENTS?

IS THERE SOME CONNECTION THERE?

YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

MICHELLE, AS YOU KNOW, I HAVE BEEN RAISING THE ALARM ON THIS FOR ABOUT MORE THAN TWO YEARS.

I TESTIFIED IN CONGRESS ABOUT THE THREAT AND SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE NEW TRANS-NATIONAL WHITE SUPREMACIST MOVEMENT WE SEE IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE CONNECTION TO MANY WESTERN CAPITALS AND COUNTRIES AND BETWEEN THE JIHADI AND HOW THE WHITE SUPREMACISTS ARE LEARNING FROM THEM.

THE WHITE SUPREMACIST ORGANIZATION IN THE STATES AND NOW IT'S IN MANY WESTERN COUNTRIES CALLED THE BASE.

THEY USE AL QAEDA MANUALS, INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE MAGAZINES TO DO THEIR -- WHAT THEY CALL WHITE JIHAD.

YOU HAVE SO MANY ORGANIZATIONS THAT'S COPYING WHAT THE JIHADIS ARE DOING, LEARNING FROM THEM.

YOU HAVE MANY WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS ON THE CHAT ROOMS ARE PRAISING THE TALIBAN AS A CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT THAT DEFEATED THE UNITED STATES AND TOOK OVER AFGHANISTAN.

BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING THESE GROUPS WOULD LIKE TO DO THAN DEFEAT THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND HAVE THEIR OWN VERSION OF REALITY GOVERN ALL OF US.

THIS IS A VERY BIG THREAT.

THAT ADDS A DIFFERENT DIMENSION TO THE SECURITY MATRIX THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

THE GLOBAL JIHADI TERRORISM IS THERE AND ALIVE.

IT'S STILL VERY DANGEROUS.

WE NEED TO KEEP OUR EYE ON IT.

WE HAVE ALSO A VERY DANGEROUS THREAT IN OUR MIDST HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

THAT THREAT IS ALSO THAT THREAT IS FUNDED SOMETIMES BY EVEN NATION STATES.

I THINK WE NEED TO KEEP OUR EYE ON IT.

YOU SAID IN ONE OF YOUR PIECES THAT WE CAN'T FIGHT DOMESTIC TERROR GROUPS UNTIL THE LAW TREATS THEM THE WAY WE TREAT FOREIGN ONES.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WAY THE U.S. APPROACHES DOMESTIC TERRORISM? DO WE HAVE AN APPROA?

WE DON'T EVEN HAVE DOMESTIC TERRORISM LAWS.

IF A WHITE SUPREMACIST IS PLANNING A PLOT AGAINST AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN CHURCH OR A JEWISH SYNAGOGUE OR MUSLIM MOSQUE, WE CANNOT USE THE TOOLS THAT WE HAVE TO STOP AL QAEDA MEMBERS, RIGHT, DOING THIS KIND OF PLOT.

WE DON'T HAVE DOMESTIC TERRORISM LAWS.

THE ONLY THING THEY CAN DO IS CHARGE THEM ON SOMETHING LIKE VIOLATION OF THE COMMUNICATION ONLY WHEN YOU HAVE BODIES, THEY CARRY OUT THE ATTACK YOU CAN ACTUALLY CHARGE THEM WITH A CRIME.

WE DON'T HAVE MATERIAL SUPPORT WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF THE CHARGES THAT WE USE IN INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM.

ALL OUR TERRORISM LAWS IS FOR INTERNATIONAL DOMESTIC.

IN ORDER TO FOCUS ON DOMESTIC TERRORISM, WE HAVE TO GIVE TOOLS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT, VERY SIMILAR TOOLS TO THE TOOLS THAT THEY USE TO STOP AL QAEDA PLOT OR STOP ISIS PLOT TO BE CARRIED IN THE UNITED STATES.

IF WE DON'T HAVE THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, WE ARE GOING TO ONLY BE REACTIVE LIKE WE USED TO BE BEFORE 9/11.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

THANK YOU, MICHELLE.

A STARK WARNING FROM ONE WHO KNOWS.

> FINALLY, WE ARE GOING TO FOR WHAT MANY PEOPLE HAS BECOME A HAPPY PLACE.

IT'S THE SLEEPER HIT COMEDY 'TED LASSO' WHICH BURST ON THE SCENE IN THE HEIGHT OF COVID.

IT FOLLOWS AN AMERICAN COLLEGE FOOTBALL COACH WHO IS HIRED BY A FOOTBALL TEAM, REAL FOOTBALL, SOCCER TO THE AMERICANS.

THE SHOW HAS WON A TRUCKLOAD OF 20 EMMY NOMINATIONS AND A LEGION OF DEDICATED FANS.

THE SECOND SEASON IS OUT NOW ON APPLE TV PLUS.

YOU THINK THIS WILL END YOUR EMBARRASSING STREAK?

I HAVE NEVER BEEN EMBARRASSED.

IT'S PART OF GROWING UP.

I GOT A QUESTION.

HAS A TEAM EVER WON IT ALL?

NOT FOR 40 YEARS.

THAT'S FINE.

I GOT YOU.

Y'ALL PROBABLY CALL IT EARLS OF RISK.

ONE OF THE MAIN STARS IS JOINING ME NOW.

HE IS NOMINATED FOR AN EMMY FOR PLAYING ASSISTANT COACH NATE THE GREAT.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WHEN YOU STARTED THIS, DID YOU HAVE ANY IDEA THAT FOR SO MANY IT WOULD BECOME SUCH A BALM FOR THESE TROUBLED TIMES WE FIND OURSELVES IN?

YES AND NO.

I THINK THAT WHEN YOU ARE MAKING A SHOW, YOU WANT THE BEST FOR IT.

YOU WANT IT TO FIND ITS AUDIENCE.

I DON'T THINK ANYONE COULD HAVE ANTICIPATED THE FACT THAT IT WOULD CONNECT WITH SO MANY PEOPLE IN SUCH A GENUINELY AND POSITIVE WAY.

I THINK THE TIMING CERTAINLY HELPED.

NOT SAYING THAT THEY PLANNED THE PANDEMIC.THE TIMING WAS GOOD.

I THINK THE THEMES OF THE SHOW, THE POSITIVE MESSAGE, HOPE AND OPTIMISM THAT PERVADES IT, WAS WELCOME AT A TIME WHEN PEOPLE AT HOME AND NEEDED A BIT OF RELIEF WITH EVERYTHING GOING ON.

I THINK THE SHOW WOULD HAVE BEEN -- IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PANDEMIC, I THINK IT MANAGED TO BUCK THE TREND IN THE SENSE THAT I THINK THE MARKET HAD BECOME A COMEDY MARKET, HAD BECOME SATURATED WITH SNARKY DARK COMEDY.WHICH I'M A BIG FAN.

BUT THIS FELT REFRESHING TO HAVE A POSITIVE CHARACTER WHO HAD A POSITIVE MESSAGE AND DIDN'T HAVE AN OUNCE OF CYNICISM IN HIM.

I THINK IT HAS KIND OF DONE CRAZY WORLD.

I DON'T THINK ANYONE WOULD HAVE ANTICIPATED THIS.

ON THE SNARKY THING, I READ JASON IS THE STAR AND CREATED THIS WITH HIS COLLEAGUES.

SAID THEY BASED IT ON THE BRITISH -- 'THE OFFICE.'

YOU KNOW THAT.

THEY COULDN'T REALLY USE THAT WHERE RICKY GERVAIS CRUSHED THE IDEA OF A BIT OF -- I DON'T KNOW HOW -- SOMEBODY WHO IS NOT SO ALTRUISTIC BECOMING.

HE DECIDED JASON WILL START WITH THE IDEA THAT THE CENTRAL CHARACTER, STORY IS RELENTLESSLY OPTIMISTIC FROM BEGINNING TO THAT'S AN INTERESTING DEVICE.

IT'S NOT LIKE IT'S A CHANGE OF CHARACTERS.

THEN I THINK THE THING WITH 'TED LASSO,' HE CHANGES EVERYONE HE INTERACTS WITH FOR THE GOOD.

EVEN THOUGH HE REMAINS THIS INCREDIBLE POSITIVE SOURCE -- HE HAS HIS DEMONS AS WELL.

HE HAS HIS -- HIS MARRIAGE IS FALLING APART.

THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS SON.

HE IS IN ENGLAND.

HE IS A FISH OUT OF WATER.

HE IS A CATALYST FOR GOOD.

EVERYONE ENDS UP REALIZING SOMETHING ABOUT THEMSELVES OR LITERALLY BECOMING A BETTER PERSON.

PARTICULARLY IN SEASON ONE, REBECCA STARTS OFF AS THIS VILLAIN OF THE SHOW.

THROUGH HER INTERACTION WITH TED, SHE ABSOLUTELY SORT OF GROWS THE CHARACTER AND SEES THIS GOODNESS IN HERSELF AND IS ONE OF THE BEST STORIES IN SEASON ONE, SEEING HER TRANSFORMATION.D JUST DOES THATE HE INTERACTS WITH.

HE EEKS OUT THIS POSITIVITY IN THEM AND FINDS THIS INNER STRENGTH.

JUST A COUPLE OF -- TO THAT POINT, A COUPLE OF REVIEWS.

THEY CALL HIM A ROAD MAP FOR MAN, AN EMOTIONAL LIFE BOAT.

THE PERFECT COUNTER TO THE PREVALENCE OF TOXIC MASCULINITY ON SCREEN AND OFF.

THAT'S THE BULK OF WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING ABOUT LIST CHARACTER.

YOU ARE NATE THE GREAT IN THE SHOW.

YOU ARE THE UNDERDOG CHARACTER.

YOU BECOME WONDER KID ASSISTANT EVEN YOUR STORY HAS THIS AMAZING ARC OF TRIUMPH.

AND YET, I WONDER IF YOU WOULD AGREE, THERE SEEMS TO BE A LITTLE MORE DARKNESS ENTERING THE SHOW AND YOUR CHARACTER AS HE TAKES ON THIS PROMOTION.

I'M GOING TO PLAY A CLIP AND HAVE YOU TALK ABOUT WHY IT'S

CAN I LEAVE EARLY TODAY?

STAY UNTIL THE WHOLE TEAM IS GONE.

YES.

IT'S JUST IT'S MY MOM'S 50th BIRTHDAY.

OH.

WHAT POSITION DOES YOUR MOM PLAY ON THE TEAM?

IT'S OKAY.

TELL YOUR MOM HAPPY BIRTHDAY.

IF SHE WANTS TO TRY OUT FOR THE TEAM, SHE'S MORE THAN WELCOME.

LOVELY.

YOU GOTTA STAY ON HIM.

PRESSURE MAKES PEARLS.

WAIT.

THAT'S WRONG.

IT'S DIAMONDS.

[ BLEEP ].

TELL US ABOUT THE STORY.

WHY ARE YOU BECOMING MORE BOSSY?

WHY ARE YOU SORT OF, I DON'T KNOW, FALLING INTO THE TRAP OF -- MAYBE NOT BEING ABLE TO DEAL WITH YOUR SUCCESS?

THAT'S EXACTLY IT.

THE SEASON ONE STORY FOR NATE WAS SOMETHING THAT WE COULD ALL I THINK GET BEHIND AS AN IT WAS THE UNDERDOG.

HE DOES GOOD THROUGH HIS INTERACTION WITH TED.

IT'S A STORY WE CAN RELATE TO.

WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT SEASON TWO IS THAT IT TAKES THE SAME GUY WITH ALL HIS INNER DEMONS AND INSECURITY AND LACK OF CONFIDENCE BUT HE HAS THIS SLIGHTLY RAISED POSITION OF POWER.

HE IS IN A POSITION OF RESPONSIBILITY.

HE HAS SOMEBODY BENEATH HIM DOING HIS JOB.

HE JUST CAN'T REALLY DEAL WITH IT.

HE HAS NEVER BEEN IN THAT POSITION BEFORE.

I THINK HE IS MISTAKING WHAT IT TAKES TO BE SORT OF HEARD AND TO BE SORT OF A POWERFUL PRESENCE IN THE ROOM.

HE IS MAKING A FEW WRONG TURNS.

THIS SEASON, A SLIGHTLY MORE -- LIKE A DARKER TRAJECTORY FOR NATE.

IT STEMS FROM -- WE CAN SAY BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN OUT.

YOU CAN SEE THAT IT'S STEMMING FROM HIS TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS DAD WHO HE HAS NEVER BEEN ABLE TO DO WELL REGARDLESS OF HIS ACHIEVEMENTS.

THERE'S THAT SAYING -- I THINK IT'S SAID IN THE SHOW.

HURT PEOPLE HURT PEOPLE.

NATE WAS BULLIED BY FORMER PLAYERS ON THE TEAM IN THE EARLIER SEASON.

NOW HE HAS THIS -- HE HAS MORE CONTROL.

HE HAS MORE RESPONSIBILITY.

HE IS TAKING IT OUT ON THOSE PLAYERS.

I WISH WE HAD MORE TIME.

I'M SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU.

IT'S SO GOOD WITH ALL THOSE ISSUES.ISH YOU REALLY GOOD LUCKT THE EMMYS AND FOR YOUR NOMINATION AS WELL.

THERE'S ONE MORE SEASON COMING UP.

> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW