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AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
> WE WILL NOT BE SILENCED!
WE WILL NOT BE SILENCED?
ANTI-VAXXERK AND THE COVID CULTURE WARS.
THEN --
POLICE.
WE'RE HERE FOR A WELFARE CHECK.
A NEW FILM DETAILS THE HORRIFYING POLICE SHOOTING OF AN ELDERLY BLACK MAN.
MORGAN FREEMAN, AND KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN JR. JOIN ME.
PLUS --
CHINA IS ACTUALLY MOVING BACKWARDS.
FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER TALKS ABOUT CHINA, AFGHANISTAN AND WHY HE RESIGNED AFTER THE CAPITAL INSURRECTION.
> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
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JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
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ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
MORE COVID MANDATES ON THE HORIZON ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ATLANTIC.
HERE IN THE UK THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER SET TO UNVEIL A NEW PLAN TO TACKLE THE VIRUS FOR THE WINTER MONTHS.
DITCHING VACCINE PASSPORTS AND FOCUSING ON BOOSTER SHOTS, DESPITE THE W.H.O. APPEAL TO FIRST SEND VACCINES TO THE UNVACCINATED DEVELOPING WORLD.
IN THE UNITED STATES PRESIDENT BIDEN ORDERED VACCINE MANDATES FOR ALL FEDERAL WORKERS AND HOPING THE FDA GIVES A GREEN LIGHT TO BOOSTERS NEXT WEEK.
ACROSS AMERICA THERE ARE ABOUT 1500 COVID DEATHS PER DAY RIGHT NOW.
ALMOST ENTIRELY AMONGST THE UNVACCINATED.
ANTI-VAXERS ARE FINDING SUCCESS CRUSADING ON THE KEYWORD 'FREEDOM.'
SCIENCE JOURNALIST LOOKED CLOSE AT THIS PHENOMENON WRITING IN THE 'NEW YORK TIMES' THIS IS THE MOMENT THE ANTI-VACCINE MOVEMENT HAS BEEN WAITING FOR.
TARA JOINS ME NOW FROM DALLAS, TEXAS.
ALONG WITH THE INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA AT BIRMINGHAM.
WELCOME BOTH OF YOU TO THE PROGRAM.
DR. MORATSO, CAN I FIRST ASK YOU LIFE IS AND DEATH QUESTIONS.
FEW WEEKS AGO YOU SAID YOU FEAR THE APOCALYPSE.
DESCRIBED IT AS SORT APOCALYPTIC IN YOUR STATE.
AND IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, NOW YOU HAVE ABOUT 3,000 HOSPITALIZED.
IS IT WORSE?
BETTER?
WHAT IS THE ACTUAL SITUATION FROM WHEN YOU USED THAT WORD?
WELL IT IS DEFINITELY NOT GETTING BETTER, CHRISTIANE.
IT IS ESSENTIALLY TO THE POINT WHERE MOST OF THE HOSPITALS IN OUR STATE ARE NOT ABLE TO PROVIDE CARE FOR THE USUAL NON COVID ILLNESSES THAT PEOPLE COME TO THE HOSPITAL FOR.
AND WHEN I USED THE TERM APOCALYPTIC, IT REALLY WAS MEANT TO INVOKE A BREAKDOWN OF SOME OF OUR SOCIETAL EXPECTATIONS ABOUT HOW WE TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER AND HOW WE TAKE CARE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SICK.
IF YOU ARE HAVING A HEART ATTACK OR YOUR PARENT IS HAVING A HEART ATTACK YOU KIND OF EXPECT YOU ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO GO TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM AND BE TAKEN CARE OF.
WE HAVE MANY EMERGENCY ROOMS RIGHT NOW IN THE UNITED STATES THAT ARE ON DIVERSION.
MEANING THEY ARE NOT EVEN TAKING NEW PATIENTS.
OUR EMERGENCY ROOMS ARE VERY CROWDED WITH PEOPLE WAITING FOR A BED.
AND OVER HALF OF OUR ICU BEDS RIGHT NOW IN THE STATE OF ALABAMA ARE OCCUPIED BY PEOPLE WITH COVID.
MOST OF WHOM ARE ON VENTILATORS.
SO THAT MAY NOT QUALIFY AS AN APOCALYPTIC VISION TO SOME PEOPLE IN THE STRICTEST INTERPRETATION OF THE WORLD.
BUT TO ME AS A MEDICAL PROVIDER AND SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE GET GOOD CARE, IT IS VERY, VERY FRIGHTENING.
DOCTOR, I WANT TO ASK YOU.
BECAUSE AS I MENTION THE STATISTICS AS LAID OUT RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF DAILY DEATHS AND THE FACT THAT ALL, OR RATHER THE VAST MAJORITY OF SERIOUS ILLNESS AND DEATH IS BEING ATTRIBUTED TO THE UNVACCINATED.
IT IS THEM WHO ARE HAT THE MOST RISK.
FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE IN TERMS OF PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURES, HOW BAD IS THE VACCINE TAKEUP IN YOUR ENVIRONMENT?
AND HOW MUCH DOES THAT CONTRIBUTE TO WHAT YOU HAVE JUST LAID OUT?
IT IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO HOW BAD THINGS ARE.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE CDC'S DATA ON THE RATES OF HOSPITALIZATION, SEVERE ILLNESS AND DEATH, IT IS DIRECTLY INVERSE TO THE LEVEL OF VACCINATION COVERAGE.
SO THE ENTIRE SOUTHEAST UNITED STATES REALLY HAS HAD A PROBLEM AND CHALLENGE WITH VACCINE UPTAKE, PARTICULARLY AMONG YOUNGER ADULTS.
AND IT IS IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE NUMBER OF CASES WE'RE SEEING, THE HOSPITALIZATIONS RIGHTS NOW, ARE REALLY BEING DRIVEN BY RELATIVELY YOUNG PEOPLE.
PEOPLE, OF COURSE PEDIATRIC ADMISSIONS RIGHT NOW HAVE REACHED A RECORD IN THE UNITED STATES.
BUT PEOPLE 18 TO, SORT OF, 40, THEY ARE REALLY DRIVING THE BULK OF THIS TRANSMISSION.
SO YOU CAN DO DIRECT LITERALLY ASSOCIATIONS BETWEEN THE RATE OF VACCINATIONS AND THE ABILITY TO KEEP PEOPLE OUT OF THE HOSPITAL.
SOME DATA SUGGEST THAT THE CURRENT VACCINES ARE A LITTLE BIT LESS EFFECTIVE AT PREVENTING ACQUISITION OF THE DELTA VARIANT, MEANING THEY MAY NOT WORK AS WELL AS THEY USED TO FOR THE ORIGINAL VARIANTS IN TERMS OF GETTING THE VIRUS.
BUT THEY STILL WORKED FANTASTICALLY WELL FOR KEEPING PEOPLE OUT OF THE HOSPITAL AND KEEPING THEM FROM DYING.
WHICH IS REALLY AT THIS POINT WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO DO.
EXACTLY.
THAT IS IN FACT THE POINT.
SO LET ME TURN TO TARA HALEY, SCIENCE JOURNALIST WHO'S DONE A DEEP DIVE ON THIS VACCINE CRISIS.
APPARENTLY ONLY 40% OF THE ALABAMA --. FALL TO LAST PLACE AMONGST G 7 NATIONS REGARDING VACCINES AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY ONLY 63% VACCINATED.
DIFFERENT FROM EUROPE WHERE AS A WHOLE 80% ARE AND HERE IN THE UK 77%. ALL THAT TO SAY, WHY -- AND WHAT HAVE YOU DISCOVERED TO BE THE MOST PERNICIOUS REASON FOR THIS LACK OF VACCINATION?
THERE'S LOTS OF REASONS, BUT THE DOMINATE REASON IS THE REALLY INTENSE DISINFORMATION THAT IS BEING DISTRIBUTED.
AND IT HAS BEEN FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THE FOLLOWING THE ANTI-VACCINE MOVEMENT FOR A DECADE AND ESPECIALLY IN 2015 WE SAW A SHIFT WHERE THE DISINFORMATION WAS CONTINUING BUT IT WAS INCREASING AND IT BEGAN TO MERGE WITH THE RHETORIC OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHERE WE SAW ANTI-VACCINE ACTIVISTS TAKE ON THAT FREEDOM CRY, SAYING I HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DETERMINE WHAT HAPPENS TO MY BODY, I HAVE TO FREEDOM TO DETERMINE WHAT HAPPENS TO MY KIDS AND WHETHER OR NOT I GIVE THEM THE VACCINE.
AND THAT MESHED VERY WELL WITH THE EXISTING RHETORIC IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF PUSHING FOR THE FREEDOM FROM GOVERNMENT TYRANNY AND OTHER THINGS.
YOU KNOW, THE TEA PARTY MOVEMENT THAT SORT OF PUSHED FOR THIS FREEDOM NARRATIVE.
THOSE MERGED, AND IT ENABLED THE ANTI-VACCINE ACTIVISTS TO BASICALLY BRING A LOT OF REPUBLICAN LEGISLATORS ON TO THEIR SIDE AND LEADERS ON TO THEIR SIDE.
LET ME JUST PLAY THIS SOUND BITE.
IT IS FROM A HEALTHCARE WORKER IN NORTH CAROLINA.
AND SHE TALKS TO WHAT YOU HAVE JUST LAID OUT.
AND THEN WE CAN DISCUSS IT.
WE LIVE IN A FREE COUNTRY.
AND THE RIGHT TO MAKE OUR OWN HEALTHCARE DECISIONS IS THE CORE OF IT.
REALLY.
I MEAN, YOU CAN GO INTO THE VACCINE PART.
BUT FREEDOM IS THAT CORE.
SO TAR REMARKS LET ME ASK YOU, THE FREEDOM TO BE VACCINATED DOES NOT TRUMP THE FREEDOM OF THE GREATER POPULATION, THE MAJORITY POPULATION TO BE KEPT SAFE AND TO BE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, SAVE THEIR LIVES.
HOW HAS THIS GROUP, WHICH APPEARS TO BE A MINORITY BUT VERY VOCAL AND VERY STRONG.
HOW HAS IT BECOME THAT WAY?
HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON?
THIS BUILDING OF THIS POLITICAL MOVEMENT?
THE ANTI-VACCINE MOVEMENT AS A WHOLE AS YOU SAID IS VERY VERY SMALL.
ITS EXISTED SINCE THE VERY BEGINNING OF VACCINES.
IT GOES BACK 200 YEARS.
BUT HARNESSING OF THE FREEDOM RHETORIC, THAT STARTED REALLY IN 2015.
WE HAD A DISNEYLAND OUTBREAK OF MEASLES.
A MEASLES OUTBREAK THAT BEGAN AT DISNEYLAND.
AND AS A RESULT WE HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY REALIZE OH, VACCINE HESITANCY IS A REAL PROBLEM.
LOWER VACCINATION RATES ENABLES OUTBREAKS TO ACTUALLY SPREAD.
SO WE SAW PEOPLE STARTING TO GET ORGANIZED POLITICALLY TO HAVE SCHOOL EXEMPTIONS FROM VACCINES.
A LOT OF PARENTS WANTED TO STOP THOSE.
THEY WANTED TO NOT ALLOW EXEMPTIONS.
AND WHEN THE ANTI-VACCINE ACTIVISTS PUSHED AGAINST THAT LAW, THEY FOUND OUT QUICKLY THAT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE HARMS OF VACCINES, IT DIDN'T WORK.
THE SCIENCE WAS NOT ON THEIR SIDE.
SO THEY SWITCHED TACTICS AND DECIDED, OKAY, WELL I'M GOING TO PROMOTE INSTEAD THIS IS MY FREEDOM.
I HAVE TO FREEDOM TO DECIDE WHAT HAPPENS TO MY BODY.
I HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DECIDE HOW I RAISE MY CHILD.
AND THAT HAD TRACTION WITH THE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATORS.
AND BECAUSE IT HAD TRACTION, IT GREW, IT SPREAD.
ACTIVISTS SHARED THEIR TACTICS WITH ONE ANOTHER ACROSS DIFFERENT STATES.
AND THEN WE HAD TRUMP KIND OF RUN -- YOU KNOW, WITH HE ROAD THAT IN.
WE SAW DISCUSSIONS OF VACCINES IN THE DEBATES WHERE TRUMP HIMSELF WAS SPREADING MISINFORMATION ABOUT VACCINES.
AND IT KIND OF ALL CAME TO A HEAD BASICALLY.
LET ME ASK YOU DR. MORAZZO.
I'M SURE YOU DON'T WANT TO GET POLITICAL BUT NONETHELESS IT HAS BECOME POLITICALLY.
LET ME ASK YOUR OWN STATE AND GOVERNOR.
THE GOVERNOR OF YOUR HOME STATE, KAY IVEY HAS CALLED PRESIDENT BIDEN'S CALL FOR VACCINE MANDATES AMONGST ALL FEDERAL WORKERS OR ALTERNATIVELY WEEKLY TESTS OUTRAGEOUS BUT SHE DOES BLAME UNVACCINATED FOLKS FOR THE CORONAVIRUS SURGE.
SO JUST TELL ME FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AS YOU KNOW A PUBLIC HEALTH WORKER AND A DOCTOR, DID YOU ALSO FEEL THE ALARM BELLS BACK WHEN THE MMR CONTROVERSY STARTED AND THE SO CALLED DR.
ANDREW WAKEFIELD STARTED THE, YOU KNOW, THAT FALSE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE MUMPS, MEASLES, RUBELLA AND AUTISM.
DID YOU NOTICE IT THEN?
DID IT WORRY YOU?
ABSOLUTELY.
AT THE TIME I WAS IN WASHINGTON STATE.
SO A VERY DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT THAN ALABAMA.
YET WE HAD SOME AREAS IN WASHINGTON STATE THAT HAD SOME OF THE HIGHEST UNVACCINATED PROPORTIONS OF CHILDREN FOR MEASLES, MUMPS AND RUBELLA OF ANY PLACE IN THE COUNTRY.
AND I WANT TO BRING THIS BACK TO WHAT TARA SAID SO BEAUTIFULLY AND WHAT HER ARTICLE SAID, WHICH IS WHAT THE ANTI-VACCINE FOLKS HAVE DONE SO WELL IS NOT JUST DO THE FREEDOM THING.
BUT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY LATCHED ON TO CONCERNS THAT ARE NOT COMPLETELY CRAZY.
RIGHT?
SO THE AUTISM THING WAS DISPROVEN.
BUT WE ARE SEEING A LOT MORE AUTISM THAN WE WERE 20 YEARS AGO IN KIDS.
THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT AND WE DON'T HAVE A GREAT EXPLANATION TOO FOR THAT.
SO LET'S BLAME IT ON INCREASING VACCINATION.
ULTIMATELY THAT WAS DISCREDITED.
BUT IF YOU ARE A PARENT AND YOU DON'T KNOW THE SCIENCE, IT GETS YOUR ATTENTION.
A GREAT EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH COVID AND ONE OF THE REASONS WE THINK YOUNG WOMEN AREN'T GETTING VACCINATED SO WELL IS THIS MYTH ABOUT COVID VACCINES AFFECTING FERTILITY.
IN FACT THERE ARE ACTUALLY OB-GYNS IN OUR COMMUNITY AND FERTILITY SPECIALISTS WHO ARE TELLING YOUNG WOMEN THEY SHOULD NOT GET THE COVID VACCINE IF THEY ARE PREGNANT OR IF THEY WANT TO GET PREGNANT.
AND THAT IS BALONEY.
THESE VACCINES ARE REALLY SAFE IN PREGNANCY.
NOT ONLY THAT THE RISK OF ADVERSE OUTCOMES IF YOU GET COVID IN PREGNANCY IS REALLY SCARY.
WE'VE HAD OVER A DOZEN WOMEN IN THIS STATE, IF NOT MORE NOW, WHO HAVE ACTUALLY DIED OF COVID WHILE PREGNANT.
AND YOU WILL SEE THE STORIES OVER AND OVER IN FLORIDA AND TEXAS.
SO THOSE ARE PREVENTABLE DEATHS, WHERE YOU HAVE A PREGNANT WOMAN, OFTEN THE BABY OF COURSE DOESN'T MAKE IT BECAUSE THESE BIRTHS TEND TO BE PREMATURE.
THEY HAPPEN IN, YOU KNOW, WEEK 30, WEEK 28.
SO VERY, VERY TOUGH.
AND YET AGAIN THIS PREYS ON PEOPLE'S FEARS WITH SUPERFICIALLY CREDIBLE INFORMATION THAT IF THEY JUST DON'T KNOW WHO TO ASK OR WHO TO GO TO, THEY MIGHT SAY HMM, MAYBE I SHOULDN'T GET THE VACCINE.
SO THAT'S BEEN VERY CHALLENGING THING FOR US AS MEDICAL PROVIDERS AND COMMUNICATORS ABOUT THE SCIENCE.
LET'S TALK ABOUT COMMUNICATION AND HOW ONE TRIES TO RECTIFY THIS IF THAT IS THE CORRECT WORD TO USE.
AND SEE WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IF THERE ARE OTHER PANDEMICS.
SO IF MOCKING DOESN'T WORK, WHICH IT DOESN'T, WHICH WE SAW WITH THE TEA PARTY AND IT IS NOT A GREAT THING TO MOCK PEOPLE.
HOW DO YOU ACTUALLY GET THE RIGHT MESSAGE OUT?
AND PARTICULARLY IN A WORLD, SAY AMERICA, IT IS JUST TAKEN AS GRANTED THAT YOU WILL PUT SEAT BELTS ON BEFORE YOU GET IN A CAR AND TAKING OFF THAT YOU WILL TAKE THE CORRECT VACCINES YOU HAVE TO FOR YOUR CHILDREN TO ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOL.
ALL THAT IS A MATTER OF COURSE THESE DAYS.
HOW DO YOU GET -- AND I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TARA, HOW DO YOU GET PARENTS, PEOPLE, TO SORT OF GET IT ABOUT VACCINES IN THE WAY THE DOCTOR HAS JUST LAID OUT?
THAT IT IS SO MUCH MORE DANGEROUS TO GET THE DISEASE THAN TO GET THE VACCINE?
FIRST TELL YOU WHAT NOT TO DO.
YOU MENTIONED NOT MOCKING.
ANOTHER THING THAT IS NOT HELPFUL TO DO IS TO AMPLIFY THE MESSAGES THAT YOU HEAR FROM ANTI-VACCINE ACTIVISTS EVEN IF IT IS FOR THE SAKE OF SAYING THIS IS CRAZY.
INSTEAD YOU NEED TO FOCUS ON SAYING THE ACCURATE INFORMATION.
BUT REALLY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE THINK WORKS THAT DOESN'T WORK AS WELL AS WE WISH IT DID IS GIVING PEOPLE FACTS.
WE DO NEED TO GIVE PEOPLE FACTS ABSOLUTELY.
BUT FACTS ALONE ARE NOT ENOUGH TO CHANGE PEOPLE'S MINDS.
SO THERE IS TWO DIFFERENT WAYS TO LOOK AT THIS.
ON THE MACRO LEVEL, WE NEED TO HAVE -- THERE IS MANY PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHO ARE PROVACCINE WHO HAVE GOTTEN VACCINATED WHO KNOW THE VALUE OF THE VACCINES.
AND WE DO HAVE A LOT OF THEM SPEAKING UP BUT WE NEED MORE OF THEM SPEAKING UP.
AND WE NEED THEM SPEAKING TO THEIR CONSTITUENTS AND LETTING THEM KNOW, I GOT THIS VACCINE.
THIS VACCINE IS SAFE, I WANT YOU TO BE SAFE AS WELL.
SO WE NEED ACTUAL ROLE MODELS, WHAT THEY ARE CALLED 'TRUSTED MESSENGERS' QUAYING THIS IDEA, CONVEYING THIS IMPORTANT MESSAGE.
THE OTHER THING IS ONE ON ONE WHEN YOU ARE TALKING TO SOMEONE.
WE ALL HAVE THE ABILITY TO TALK TO PEOPLE AROUND US WHO ARE NOT VACCINATED BUT WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS START BY LISTENING TO THEM.
ASK THEM WHY ARE YOU WORRIED?
WHAT WORRIES YOU?
WHAT SCARES YOU?
AND LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY AND THEN TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S UNDER I?
THE FERTILITY CONCERN.
YOU ARE AFRAID THIS IS GOING TO AFFECT LONG-TERM FERTILITY AND AFRAID THIS IS GOING TO LOSE CONTROL OF THE ABILITY TO HAVE A KID AND THEN START TO USE, I KNOW IT IS SOCRATIC METH BUT ASKING THEM QUESTIONS BUT DID YOU REALIZE THIS MANY WOMEN DIE IN PREGNANCY IN COVID?
DID YOU REALIZE THE BABY CAN GET ACTUAL ANTIBODIES WHEN THEY ARE DOING THIS.
DID YOU REALIZE A STUDY OF MORE THAN 30,000 PEOPLE FOUND NO HIGHER RISK OF PRE TERM BIRTH OR ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE VACCINE?
SO YOU ASK THEM THESE QUESTIONS BUT THEN COME BACK TO LISTENING TO THEM.
AND IT HAS TO BE A DIALOGUE.
AND IT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN ONE SITTING.
A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE PATIENCE BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE THERE IS NO POINT.
AND I -- THERE IS A POINT IT DOES WORK BUT IT TAKES TIME AND YOU HAVE TO REALLY ENGAGE WITH THEM.
SO ON THAT POINT THEN, DR.
MORAZZO, TALKING ABOUT MEASLES, THE FACTS HERE.
BECAUSE OF THE ANTI-VAX MOVEMENT OF MMR.
BECAUSE OF THE VACCINE -- REPORTED HIGHEST NUMBER IN 25 YEARS AND NUMBER OF CHILDREN DIED BECAUSE OF IT.
IN TERMS OF TRUSTED VOICES AND WHO WILL, YOU KNOW, MODEL THE REQUIRED BEHAVIOR, LOOK, THE GOVERNOR OF SOUTH CAROLINA HAS SAID THE AMERICAN DREAM HAS TURNED INTO A NIGHTMARE UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE RADICAL DEMOCRATS, REST ASSURED WE WILL FIGHT THEM TO THE GATES OF HELL TO PROTECT THE LIBERTY AND LIVELIHOOD OF EVERY SOUTH CAROLINIAN.
WHO WOULD YOU RELY ON TO STEP UP AND COUNTER THESE MESSAGES?
IN GENERAL, NOT POLITICIANS OR ANYONE WHO HAS AN AGENDA THAT DOESN'T REALLY DIRECTLY RELATE TO ONE'S INDIVIDUAL HEALTH.
SO THESE RALLYING CRIES FOR FREEDOM HAVE NOTHING TO DO, IN A WAY, WITH THE PERSON WHO IS SITTING IN FRONT OF ME ASKING ME IF IT IS SAFE TO GET THIS VACCINE, OR SOMEONE LIKE YOU INTERVIEWING ME.
THE WHOLE IDEA IS TO HAVE A RESPECTFUL, HONEST, INFORMED, ENGAGED CONVERSATION WITH PEOPLE ABOUT THEIR FEARS.
AS TARA SAID SO WELL.
YOU REALLY DO HAVE TO SAY, WHAT ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT?
AND WHAT CAN I TELL YOU ABOUT THIS?
FACTS, IT IS TRUE PROBABLY WON'T CHANGE THE POPULATION AS A WHOLE.
BUT ONE ON ONE IF YOU REALLY ENGAGE WITH PEOPLE, YOU CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION.
THERE ARE SOME INTERESTING STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE A TRUSTED HEALTHCARE PROVIDER, THE MESSAGE COMING FROM THAT HEALTHCARE PROVIDER, WHETHER IT IS A PHYSICIAN OR A NURSE OR A MID LEVEL PROVIDER, ACTUALLY CARRIES A LOT OF WEIGHT.
SO THAT'S WHY WE CARE SO MUCH ABOUT EDUCATING OUR PROFESSIONAL COMMUNITIES AGAIN GOING BACK TO THIS THING I SAID BEFORE ABOUT PEOPLE GETTING THE WRONG MESSAGES FROM SPECIALISTS, WHO TAY LISTEN TO.
SO I THINK THAT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.
THE OTHER THING I WOULD POINT OUT IS THAT PEERS ARE REALLY IMPORTANT.
AND TARA MENTIONED THAT.
WE EVEN LISTED ATHLETES.
WE EVEN LISTED STUDENT ATHLETES.
OUR COACHES REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT IF YOU LOOK AT VACCINATION UPTAKE BY THE BEHAVIOR OF OUR COLLEGE FOOTBALL COACHES HERE LOCALLY.
WHICH IS A HUGE DEAL.
YOU WILL SEE VERY IMPORTANT TRENDS.
PEOPLE RESPECT AUTHORITY AND UNFORTUNATELY WHEN POLITICIANS MAKE THOSE KIND OF ARGUMENTS AND THEY WANT TO GO TOWARDS THAT SOURCE OF AUTHORITY, IT IS VERY HARD TO UNDO AND COUNTER THAT.
WELL THANK YOU BOTH FOR LAYING THIS OUT SO ACCESSIBLY.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.
> TURNING NOW TO THE POLICE KILLING OF AN ELDERLY BLACK MAN, A 10 YEAR OLD TRAGEDY THAT NEVER TRULY GOT THE ATTENTION IT DESERVED.
BEFORE GEORGE FLOYD OR BREONNA TAYLOR AND OTHER THE OTHER INNOCENTS.
68 YEAR OLD KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN WAS AT HIS HOME IN WHITE PLAINS NEW YORK WHEN HE ACCIDENTALLY TRIGGERED HIS MEDICAL ALERT TWICE PROMPTING A SINGLE VISIT FROM POLICE.
WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A CHECK IN ENDED WITH A SINGLE KILLING OF KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN.
INDEED THAT IS THE NAME OF THE FILM GOES THROUGH THE HORRIFYING LAST HOURS OF HIS LIFE.
TAKE A LOOK AT THIS CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.
MR. CHAMBERLAIN THIS IS CANDACE WITH LIFE GUARD MEDICAL ALERTS.
THIS LINE IS BEING RECORDED.
JUST RECEIVED AN ACTIVATION FROM YOUR PENDANT.
DO YOU HAVE AN EMERGENCY?
I'M NOT GETTING AN RESPONSE FROM YOU I'M GOING TO DISPATCH EMERGENCY SERVICES NOW.
SIR, WYATT PLAINS POLICE.
WE'RE HERE FOR A WELFARE CHECK.
OPEN THIS DOOR!
WELCOME BOTH TO THE PROGRAM.
LET ME ASK YOU FIRST, KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN JR., THIS IS ALL ABOUT YOUR FATHER, YOUR FAMILY.
I FRANKLY FOUND IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO WATCH.
IT WAS ON THE EDGE OF MY SEAT.
OBVIOUSLY I KNEW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.
BUT THE DRAMA, THE HORROR OF IT WAS ALMOST UNSPEAKABLE.
AND I JUST WONDER HOW YOU FELT WATCHING IT.
WELL EACH AND EVERY TIME THAT I VIEW IT, THE SAME REACTION HAPPENS.
I MEAN, TEARS START TO FALL FROM MY EYES.
BECAUSE FOR SOME PEOPLE IT IS A FILM.
BUT FOR ME IT IS MY REALITY.
IT IS MY LIFE.
SO IT IS ALWAYS VERY TRAUMATIC WHEN I LOOK AT IT.
LET'S JUST GO THROUGH VERY QUICKLY BEFORE I TURN TO FRANKIE FAISON WHO DID YOUR FATHER IN THE MOST INCREDIBLE WAY.
HE HAD A, YOU KNOW, A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE.
HE HAD SOME BIPOLAR ISSUES.
HE HAD A HEART ISSUE.
AND HE APPARENTLY ROLLED OVER AT 5:00 IN THE MORNING ON HIS DEVICE, WHICH WAS BEING MONITORED BY A PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION WHO THEN WOULD CALL, YOU KNOW, HELP IF THERE WAS AN EMERGENCY.
IS THAT THE BASIC PARAMETERS OF WHAT HAPPENED THAT TERRIBLE MORNING?
THAT'S CORRECT.
OUR FATHER, AS YOU SAID HAD BIPOLAR DISORDER BUT ALSO SUFFERED FROM A HEART CONDITION AND CHRONIC OBSTRUCTIVE PULMONARY DISEASE.
SO HE DID ACCIDENTALLY OR INADVERTENTLY TRIGGER HIS LIFE AID PENDANT.
THE MONITORING STATION ATTEMPTED TO REACH HIM.
THEY WEREN'T SUCCESSFUL WHEN THEY TRIED.
SO THEY CONTACTED WHITE PLAINS POLICE.
WHITE PLAINS POLICE BEING FIRST RESPONDERS IN THIS CITY, DID ARRIVE AT HIS HOME IN WHITE PLAINS, HIS APARTMENT.
THEY KNOCKED ON THE DOOR.
MY FATHER CAME TO THE DOOR, SAID HE WAS OKAY, THAT HE DIDN'T CALL THEM.
BUT THAT WASN'T ENOUGH FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT.
THEY WANT MID FATHER TO OPEN THE DOOR AND ALLOW THEM ENTRY INTO HIS HOME, WHICH HE REFUSED.
AND IT WAS HIS RIGHT TO REFUSE.
BECAUSE YOU WERE COMING FOR A POSSIBLE MEDICAL EMERGENCY.
YOU DIDN'T HAVE A WARRANT.
YOU DIDN'T HAVE HIS PERMISSION AND THERE WAS NO EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCE.
SO FRANKIE FAISON, THIS IS A ROLE FOR YOU.
BUT YOU REALLY INHABITED.
AND WE JUST CAN'T LOOK AWAY.
AS I SAID, THE FEELING OF PANIC THAT OBVIOUSLY KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN WAS FEELING AND THE AGGRESSION THAT WAS HAPPENING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE DOOR WERE JUST PALPABLE.
WHAT ABOUT YOU, BEFORE YOU STARTED TO PLAY IT, GRIPPED YOU?
SORRY, WHAT ABOUT IT AND THIS STORY MADE YOU WANT TO DO THIS ROLE?
WELL, WHEN I FIRST RECEIVED THIS SCRIPT FROM MY MANAGER, I IMMEDIATELY UPON FIRST READING WAS DRAWN TO THIS CHARACTER AND TO THIS ROLE.
IN PARTICULAR, HE'S A MAN WHO IS ABOUT MY AGE.
AND I JUST STARTED THINKING ABOUT MY FATHER WHO, YOU KNOW, WAS 50 YEARS OLDER THAN ME WHEN I WAS BORN.
SO WHEN I GOT TO SEE HIM, WHEN HE TURNED 70 AND 80, YOU KNOW, I GOT TO SEE A VERY FRAGILE INDIVIDUAL.
AND VULNERABLE INDIVIDUAL.
AND SO ALL THOSE ELEMENTS, THEY FUSED THROUGH ME AS I READ THE SCRIPT.
AND I WAS THINKING THAT HOW EASILY IT COULD HAVE BEEN MY FATHER.
IT COULD HAVE BEEN SOMEONE ELSE IN MY FAMILY OR EVEN A FRIEND OR A LOVED ONE.
AND THE WRITING BY DAVID MADELL SO COMPREHENSIVE AND BEAUTIFULLY DONE THAT IT JUST DREW ME IN.
AND AS AN ACTOR I FELT THAT I REALLY WANTED TO BE CHALLENGED BY PLAYING THIS ROLE AND KNEW IT WOULD BE EMOTIONALLY, PHYSICALLY DRAINING IN WAYS THAT I HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED BEFORE IN A FILM.
SO I'M GOING TO PLAY A CLIP, WHICH SORT OF ENCAPSULATES WHAT'S GOING ON ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS DOOR.
[ KNOCKING ]
YO KEN, REMEMBER ME, IT IS SERGEANT FLANAGAN.
YEAH, I REMEMBER YOU FROM MY WALKABOUTS AROUND HERE.
WE'RE GOING TO GIVE YOU ONE LAST CHANCE TO OPEN THIS DOOR, BUDDY.
[ POUNDING ON THE DOOR ] COME ON KENNETH.
WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO BUST YOUR DOOR DOWN.
NO THANK YOU.
I DON'T NEED YOUR HELP.
GONNA HAVE TO LET US IN SOMETIME.
COME ON, YOU'RE A GROWN ASS MAN.
ENOUGH OF THIS CRY BABY STUFF.
LET'S HANDLE THIS LIKE ADULTS.
JUST LET US IN.
WE'LL CHECK YOU OUT.
THEN WE'LL LEAVE.
I'M TELLING YOU, I'M FINE.
I AM NOT SICK.
I DON'T NEED YOUR HELP.
THANK YOU.
FOR YOUR TIME.
BUT PLEASE GET AWAY FROM MY DOOR.
SO I WANT BOTH OF YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THIS.
BECAUSE CLEARLY KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN, YOUR FATHER, WAS CALM, POLITE.
HE SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN I DON'T NEED HELP.
GET AWAY FROM MY DOOR.
AND INDEED THE ACTUAL COMPANY THAT WAS MONITORING HIM HAD CALLED OFF AT HIS REQUEST THE INTERVENTION.
AND YET THE POLICE SIMPLY DID NOT KNOW HOW TO DEESCALATE AND IT WITH TRAGIC CONSEQUENCES.
KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN JR. YOU WERE ON THE PHONE WITH YOUR FATHER IN REAL TIME AND THIS WHOLE FILM UNFOLDS IN REAL TIME.
ABOUT AN HOUR AND A HALF, TWO HOURS.
YOU DIDN'T GO THERE H.
HE DIDN'T WANT YOU TO DO.
HE KEPT SAYING HE COULD TAKE CARE OF HIMSELF.
TAKE US BACK TO THAT MOMENT?
SO THAT PIECE IN THE FILM IS SOMETHING THAT WAS INCLUDED.
INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH WHEN THE COMPANY TOLD WHITE PLAINS POLICE DEPARTMENT TO CONTACT ME, THEY REFUSED TO CONTACT ME.
SO I HAD NO CLUE, NO IDEA WHAT WAS ACTUALLY TAKING PLACE WITH MY FATHER THAT MORNING.
HAD THEY SIMPLY CALLED ME, I COULD HAVE GOTTEN TO HIS APARTMENT ON TIME AND MAYBE, JUST MAYBE MY FATHER WOULD BE ALIVE TODAY.
AND WE'RE ABOUT TO GET MORGAN FREEMAN UP ON THE SATELLITE.
HE OBVIOUSLY IS MOVIE STAR BUT ALSO THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER OF THIS FILM.
MORGAN FREEMAN CAN YOU HEAR ME?
I CAN.
CAN YOU HEAR ME?
FANTASTIC.
YES I CAN.
SO WE'RE GLAD TO HAVE YOU ALONG WITH FRANKIE FAISON AND KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN JR.
WE'VE BEEN TALK ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF THIS FILM.
WHAT IS IT ABOUT IT?
THERE ARE MANY, MANY INNOCENT BLACK MEN WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED AND BLACK WOMEN BY THE POLICE OUT OF CONTROL.
WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THIS ONE THAT MADE YOU WANT TO PUT YOUR NAME AND YOUR EXECUTIVE PRODUCING TITLE BEHIND IT?
I THINK THIS IS THE ONLY ONE THAT SOMEBODY DECIDED TO MAKE A MOVIE OF.
SO WE'VE NOT SEEN IT DRAMATIZED AS A MOVIE THAT WOULD GO INTO THE THEATERS AND YOU CAN SEE IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
AND WHEN WE SAW IT LAST YEAR, WE DECIDED THAT THIS NEEDS ALL THE HELP IT CAN GET TO GET OUT TO THE PUBLIC, THAT IT NEEDS TO BE SEEN.
WE NEED TO DIGEST THIS KIND OF INFORMATION AND FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN MAKE USE OF IT, WHAT KIND OF A LESSON CAN WE IMPART HERE WITH THIS KIND OF -- THIS W THIS FILM.
IT IS IMPORTANT WE FEEL THAT THESE KINDS OF THINGS BE DRAMATIZED MORE.
SO HERE WE ARE TRYING TO GET IT DISTRIBUTED.
SO IS YOUR MAIN TAKEAWAY?
THERE ARE SO MANY.
WHAT IS IT, LIKE NUMBER ONE THAT YOU WANT TO SEE?
YOU HAVE BEEN INTERVIEWED AND YOU HAVE SAID I KNOW THAT WHATEVER I SAY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO TAKE IT AS DEFUND THE POLICE.
THAT IS NOTE WHAT I MEAN.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
BECAUSE THE SCENE OF THE POLICE OUTSIDE THAT DOOR WOULD ENRAGE ANYBODY.
EVEN IF THEY SAY THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER HE WAS DANGEROUS OR WHATEVER.
HE WASN'T PRESENTING A DANGER.
HE WAS SPEAKING CALMLY.
HE WAS EXPLAINING THE CENTER HAD CALLED OFF THE CALL.
AND THE POLICE WOULDN'T LISTEN.
WHAT DO YOU WANT -- WHAT SORT OF REFORM WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE?
YOU'RE ASKING ME?
YES, MORGAN FREEMAN.
I AM.
OH, SORRY, YEAH.
WELL, YOU KNOW, MY COMPANION AND I HAVE FUNDED A DEPARTMENT AT OLE MISS THAT IS SET UP TO ADDRESS THIS SORT OF SITUATION.
WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT POLICE, NUMBER ONE, MISCONDUCT, BUT POLICE JUST IN THE WRONG PLACE?
IN KENNETH'S SITUATION, POLICE HAD NO BUSINESS BEING THERE.
AND WHEN THEY WERE THERE AND HE SAID I'M OKAY, I DIDN'T CALL YOU, THERE WAS NO REASON FOR THEM TO STAY.
THEY SHOULD HAVE LEFT.
THEY SEND THE POLICE TO SOMETHING THAT HAD TO DO WITH MENTAL HEALTH OR JUST HEALTH ISSUES.
AND POLICE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.
SO I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS GET A MOVEMENT GOING THAT IS GOING TO NOT DEFUND THE POLICE AT ALL.
BUT REFUND THEM, TAKE MONEY THEM AND ALLOCATE IT FOR DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS.
DEPARTMENTS THAT CAN DEAL WITH HEALTH ISSUES, WITH ISSUES THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH CRIMINALITY.
YEAH, BECAUSE FROM THE BEGINNING THEY TREATED HIM AS IF HE WAS A POTENTIAL CRIMINAL.
AND OBVIOUSLY FROM THE BEGINNING, HE LOOKED AT THEM WITH A -- WELL, DIDN'T LOOK.
BUT ENGAGED THROUGH THE DOOR AS SOMEBODY WHO HAD REASON TO, BECAUSE OF HIS DEMOGRAPHIC, AFRAID OF THE POLICE.
I'M REALLY INTERESTED, FRANKIE FAISON IN HOW THE FILM WAS DONE IN THAT JUST VERY TIGHT, ALMOST CLAUSTROPHOBIC ENVIRONMENT, LANDING OUTSIDE THE FRONT DOOR AND A LITTLE BIT INSIDE THE DEPARTMENT.
TELL ME ABOUT THE FILMING THAT CREATED THE ATMOSPHERE.
WELL THAT IS VERY SPECTACULAR THE WAY IN WHICH THIS WAS DONE.
FIRST OF ALL THE FILM, I SHOT MY SECTION IN EIGHT DAYS.
AND THEY SHOT EVERYTHING OF ME FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE DOOR.
AND THEN TAY TOOK MORE EIGHT MORE DAYS AND SHOT THE PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE, ON THE STAIRWAY AND ALL OF THAT.
THEY USED TWO CAMERAS AND IT WAS LIKE A DANCE.
BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE FINANCES TO DO ELABORATE SETUPS.
IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO EXPENSIVE.
IT WOULD HAVE BEEN LONGER.
SO THEY JUST DID EVERYTHING WITH THOSE TWO CAMERAS AND DANCING AROUND ME, NOT TRYING TO GET IN EACH OTHER'S WAY SO THAT THEY COULD GET THE KIND OF SHOTS THEY NEEDED TO GET.
AND THEY WERE LIKE SORT OF PART OF MY INNER CONSCIENCE.
THEY WERE THERE BUT THEY WERE NOT THERE.
THEY WERE NOT IN THE WAY EVER.
AND THAT IS THE WAY THAT WAS SHOT.
AND I NEVER HAD ANY INTERACTION WITH THE PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE DOOR UNTIL THEY FINALLY BURST IN AT THE END OF THE FILM.
AND IT WAS TO ME IT WAS JUST ONE OF THE MOST ECONOMICAL AND FASCINATING WAYS TO SHOOT THIS FILM.
AND KENNETH CHAMBERLAIN JR., THIS IS YOUR FATHER, AND AS YOU KNOW FRANKIE SAY, THE POLICE FINALLY BASH THE DOOR DOWN TRY TO TAKE IT OFF ITS HINGES.
THEY RUN IN WITH HANDGUNS, WITH TASER.
AND THEY KILL HIM.
THEY SHOOT HIM.
AND HE DIES.
NO GURNEY.
NO NOTHING.
THIS WAS MEANT TO BE A WELFARE CHECK A HEALTH CHECK.
NONE OF THAT.
AND THEN ABOUT JUSTICE.
TELL ME ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.
DID THE JURY WHEN IT CAME TO TRIAL HEAR THE FULL STORY?
DID ANY OF THE POLICE?
WERE ANY OF THE POLICE HELD ACCOUNTABLE?
AND THERE WAS SOME VERY UGLY RACIAL COMMENTS THROWN AROUND PARTICULAR BY BY THE ONE OFFICER, WHO IS, YOU KNOW, THE WHITE OFFICER WHO IS ONE OF THE FEATURED OFFICERS.
TELL ME ABOUT THE PROCESS OF TAKING THIS TO COURT IN THE END.
SO AFTER MY FATHER WAS KILLED IN 2011, IT WENT TO THE GRAND JURY IN 2012.
THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY AT THAT TIME PROMISED THE FULL AND FAIR INVESTIGATION.
BUT IN MAY OF 2012, SHE CAME BACK WITH NO TRUE BILL.
THERE WAS NO INDICTMENT.
THEY ALL SEEMED TO READ FROM THE SAME PLAYBOOK WHEN IT COMES TO THAT.
REPORTER ACTUALLY ASKED THE CURRENT -- ASKED THAT DA AT THE TIME WHO WAS JANET DIFIORRE.
THEY ASKED HER ABOUT THE RACIAL SLUR THAT WAS HURDLE AT MY FATHER BEFORE IT WAS KILLED.
SHE DIDN'T DENY THAT IT WAS SAID.
SHE DID SAY YES, A OFFICER DID USE THE 'N' WORD.
BUT SHE JUSTIFIED IT.
SHE SAID IT WAS USED AS A TACTIC TO DISTRACT MY FATHER.
SO, WE MOVE FORWARD CIVILLY AT THAT POINT.
BUT THE JUDGE HEARING THE CASE CIVILLY REMOVED THE MEAT OF OUR CASE AND TOOK IT DOWN TO THE FINAL SECONDS OF, LIKE, MAYBE THREE SECONDS RIGHT BEFORE THE OFFICER PULLED THE TRIGGER.
THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN PRESENT A CASE OR FIGHT A CASE LIKE THAT WHEN ALL YOU HAVE IS THREE SECONDS.
WE COULDN'T TALK ABOUT THE EVENTS THAT LED UP TO IT.
SO THE JURY ORIGINALLY FOUND FOR THE CITY.
BUT WE FILED AN APPEAL.
AND THEN LAST YEAR, WE WON THE APPEAL BASED ON QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.
WE WON THE APPEAL AND THE DECISION THAT THE JUDGES WROTE, THEY SAID INSTEAD OF TREATED MR.
CHAMBERLAIN LIKE A CRITICALLY ILL PATIENT YOU TREATED HIM AS IF HE WERE A CRIMINAL SUSPECT.
SO WE ARE BACK IN COURT NOW.
AND, ALSO, THE CURRENT WESTCHESTER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY IS TAKING A SECOND LOOK AT THE KILLING OF MY FATHER TO SEE WHAT WAS PRESENTED AND WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS PRESENTED FAIRLY TO A GRAND JURY.
ALL RIGHT.
AND OF COURSE ALL OF THIS HAS COME UP AGAIN, OBVIOUSLY IN THE AFTERMATH OF GEORGE FLOYD AND ALL THE NAMES THAT WE'VE BEEN REPORTING ON OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS.
EVERYBODY THANK YOU SO MUCH.
IT IS A REALLY AMAZING FILM.
AND REALLY OUR CONDOLENCES TO YOU, KENNETH JR. AS WELL.
> AND NOW, WE TURN TO ASIA WHERE NORTH KOREA CLAIMS IT HAS SUCCESSFULLY TEST FIRED NEW CRUISE MISSILES.
OUR NEXT GUEST FOCUSED ON ASIA BEFORE BECOMING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR.
HERE HE IS SPEAKING TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE THREAT TO THE REGION AND WHY HE RESIGNED FROM THE WHITE HOUSE AFTER THE JANUARY 6th ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL.
THANKS CHRISTIANE.
AND MATT, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME, WALTER.
GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.
WE'RE JUST LEARNING ON THE NEWS TODAY THAT NORTH KOREA IS AGAIN TESTING LONG-RANGE MISSILES.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING?
YEAH, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT NORTH KOREA IS WATCHING THE MISTAKEN, YOU KNOW, THE MISTAKE OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S MOVING FORWARD WITH TRYING TO NEGOTIATE AGAIN WITH IRAN ON IRAN'S TERMS.
I THINK THEY HAVE SEEN THIS WITHDRAW FROM AFGHANISTAN.
THEY HAVE SEEN IT US MAKE UNILATERAL -- WITH RUSSIA.
WHY WOULD REALLOW RUSSIA TO BUILD, FOR EXAMPLE, AGAINST THE WISHES OF CONGRESS AND AGAINST THE WISHES OF OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES WITH EXCEPTION OF GERMANY.
WHY WOULD THEY ALLOW RUSSIA TO BUILD A GAS PIPELINE STRAIGHT INTO THE HEART OF EUROPE BYPASSING UKRAINE?
SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT KIM JONG UN IS A SAVVY CHARACTER.
HE WATCHES WHAT WE'RE DOING.
HE WATCHES HOW WE'RE DOING IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.
AND THEN MAKES, YOU KNOW, CALCULATIONS ABOUT WHETHER HE WANTS TO GO BACK TO AN OLD PLAYBOOK.
BUT YOU AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TRIED PRETTY HARD TO ENGAGE HIM, TO ACTUALLY NEGOTIATE WITH HIM PERSONALRY RIGHT.
I'M NOT -- I'M NOT AGAINST ENGAGING DICTATORS, PARTICULARLY AT THEIR LEVEL.
MY VIEW IS THAT YOU ARE BETTER OFF GOING LEADER TO LEADER THAN GOING THROUGH THE CHARADE OF HAVING A BUNCH OF MID LEVEL DIPLOMATS SPEND YEARS NEGOTIATING AN AGREEMENT THAT DICTATORS END UP, YOU KNOW, RENEGING ON TEN MINUTES LATER.
I'M NOT AGAINST THE IDEA OF US ENGAGING WITH DICTATORS.
BUT WHAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IS WHEN WE MAKE UNILATERAL CONCESSIONS IN THE EXPECTATION THAT DICTATORS ARE THEN GOING TO TREAT US FAIRLY.
THAT IS JUST NOT HOW THOSE SYSTEMS, WHO.
SO I THINK WE MIGHT BE MOVING BACK TOWARDS THIS PATTERN WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO SHORT CIRCUIT.
END OF 2017 WE HAD APPLIED SO MUCH ECONOMIC PRESSURE THROUGH THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, ECONOMIC PRESSURE IN THE FORM OF SANCTIONS ON NORTH KOREA THAT THEIR NUCLEAR AND LONG-RANGE MISSILES TESTS STOPPED.
AT THE END OF 2017.
AND, YOU KNOW, ITS BEEN ALMOST, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER, FOUR YEARS SINCE THEY HAVE STARTED AGAIN.
HE MAYBE NOW TESTING THE WATERS AGAIN TO SEE WHETHER HE CAN PROVOKE IN A WAY THAT WOULD LURE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION INTO GOING BACK TO THE PRETTY STUPID PATTERN THAT WE FOLLOWED FOR 30 YEARS OF MID LEVEL NEGOTIATIONS THAT TAKE YEARS, INVOLVE US GIVING SIGNIFICANT CONCESSIONS ONLY FOR US TO BE DISAPPOINTED IN THE FINAL RESULT.
SO YOU WERE A MARINE, TWO TOURS, IN AFGHANISTAN.
FIRST OF ALL, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF OUR WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN?
WELL, THE WAY IN WHICH WE'VE WITHDRAWN HAS DEALT A GRAVE BLOW TO OUR STANDING.
THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.
WHEN WE -- WE SEE OUR EUROPEAN PARTNERS IN SOME CASES CENSURING THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
I THINK IT'S BEEN PAINFUL FOR VETERANS CERTAINLY TO WATCH AND MANY OF US HAVE BEEN ENGAGED IN TRYING TO GET PEOPLE OUT OF AFGHANISTAN WHO WORKED MOST CLOSELY WITH US TO TRY TO ESTABLISH A VIABLE GOVERNMENT THERE.
SO CERTAINLY THE SHORT-TERM IMPACT HAS BEEN QUITE GRAVE.
MEDIUM, LONGER TERM IMPACT IS A MUCH TOUGHER GUESS.
WE KNOW THAT THIS HAS DONE DAMAGE TO INDIA.
INDIA IN A CERTAIN RESPECT NOW THAT THE TALIBAN HAS TAKEN OVER MOST OF AFGHANISTAN, IN SOME RESPECTS INDIA IS NOW HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT TWO PAKISTANS ON ITS NORTHERN FLANK.
WE DON'T WANT INDIA TO BE ENCUMBERED BY ADDITIONAL THREATS OF TERRORISM BECAUSE WE NEED INDIA AS A PARTNER TO HELP COUNTERBALANCE CHINA'S AMBITIONS THROUGHOUT THE REGION.
SO THAT IS ON THE NEGATIVE SIDE.
THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TRIED TO DESCRIBE THIS AS OUR WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO DOUBLE DOWN ON THE WESTERN PACIFIC REGION AND ENSURE THAT SOUTHEAST ASIAN COUNTRY, PACIFIC COUNTRY, JAPAN, AUSTRALIA, SOUTH KOREA REMAIN INDEPENDENT AND STRONG AND SAFE FROM CHINA'S AMBITIONS, NOT TO MENTION TAIWAN.
SO I'M HOPEFUL THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FOLLOWS THROUGH ON PROVING THAT -- THAT OUR LOSS IN AFGHANISTAN WILL BE OUR GAIN SOMEHOW IN THE WESTERN PACIFIC.
BUT IT WAS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WITH YOU AS DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR AND TRUMP AS PRESIDENT WHO SET A TIME TO GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.
WAS THAT A MISTAKE?
WELL, YOU KNOW, I -- I THINK THAT WE SAW UMM, A TIME LINE SET MULTIPLE TIMES, AND THEN WE WERE ABLE TO PUSH THAT TIME LINE OUT CONTINGENT UPON THE TALIBAN ACTUALLY MAKING GOOD ON THE PROMISES THAT IT MADE IN THAT AGREEMENT.
SO YOU ARE SAYING TRUMP WOULD HAVE PUSHED IT OUT AND NOT FOLLOWED THE ACCORD THAT HE SIGNED?
I THINK YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASK HIM.
I THINK THAT THERE IS A -- THERE WERE EARLIER -- THEIR AMBITIONS DURING THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY TO GET OUT EARLIER THAN WE DID.
TRUMP FINISHED HIS TERM WITHOUT HAVING COMPLETELY GOTTEN OUT.
WERE YOU AMONG THOSE PUSHING NOT TO GET OUT TOO QUICKLY?
YEAH MY VIEW WAS KEEPING SEVERAL THOUSAND TROOPS IN SORT OF A BACKGROUND ROLE WHERE WE'RE PROVIDING SUPPORT AND MONEY AND EXPERTISE AND CONTRACTORS ARE ABLE TO KEEP EQUIPMENT AND AIRCRAFT UP IN THE AIR AND TO PROVIDE THE ALL IMPORTANT CLOSE AIR SUPPORT FROM THE U.S. AIR FORCE AND NAVY WOULD ALLOW US TO BUY TIME.
IT WASN'T GOING TO WIN THIS WAR IN -- IN THE -- YOU KNOW, AS DEFINED AT VARIOUS POINTS OVER THE COURSE OF THAT 20-YEAR CONFLICT.
CERTAIN POINTS WE THOUGHT WE COULD COMPLETELY DEFEAT THE TALIBAN AND ESTABLISH, YOU KNOW, A SOVEREIGN CENTRALIZED DEMOCRACY.
I THINK THAT THAT IS A PIPE DREAM.
THAT WOULD CONTINUE TO BE A PIPE DREAM.
EVEN IF WE HAD STAYED.
BUT AFGHANISTAN, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T NEED FOR AFGHANISTAN TO BECOME, YOU KNOW, A WESTERN EUROPEAN DEMOCRACY IN ORDER FOR US TO HELP PROTECT OURSELVES.
WE JUST NEED AFGHANISTAN TO BE A BETTER AFGHANISTAN THAN --
LET ME MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND THIS.
I MEAN, WHEN YOU SAID YOU WOULD HAVE KEPT A FEW THOUSAND TROOPS INDEFINITELY, TRUMP BASICALLY WENT AGAINST THAT ADVICE, RIGHT?
THE AGREEMENT THAT WAS SIGNED SAID THAT WE WERE GOING TO GET OUT COMPLETELY IN MAY, ASSUMING THAT THE TALIBAN WORK TOWARDS A, YOU KNOW, A UNITY GOVERNMENT, A PARTNERSHIP WHETHER THEY WOULD REACH THROUGH NEGOTIATION NOT THROUGH THE BARRELS OF THEIR GUNS, AND ALSO THAT THEY WOULD NO LONGER SUPPORT AL QAEDA.
NOW, WE'VE JUST SEEN THE LEADER OF AL QAEDA AL-ZAWAHIRI, WHO WE'VE NOT HEARD FROM IN A LONG TIME, AL QAEDA JUST RELEASE AD VIDEO BY HIM.
I THINK THAT THAT IS A HINT OF WHAT'S TO COME.
I DON'T THINK THAT THOSE LINKS TWEEN THE TALIBAN AND AL QAEDA HAVE BEEN SEVERED.
FAR FROM IT.
I THINK WE'RE GOING TO LEARN THE HARD WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, IN COMING MONTHS THAT AL QAEDA IS GOING TO BE BACK IN BUSINESS.
WAS THAT DISAGREEMENT ENGAGEMENT FOR THIS MAY THAT TRUMP HAS DONE, WAS THAT A MISTAKE?
I -- I -- I THINK THAT THE -- IT HADN'T YET BEEN FULFILLED ON THE PART OF THE TALIBAN.
SO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A MISTAKE TO GET OUT IN MAY GIVEN WHERE THE TALIBAN WAS IN REALITY AND WHAT THEY WERE FAILING TO DO TO KEEP UP THEIR SIDE OF THAT BARGAIN, YEAH.
PRESIDENT BIDEN AND CHINA PRESIDENT XI JINPING A FEW DAYS AGO HAD A CONVERSATION.
WENT ON FOR AN HOUR AND A HALF AND IT WAS NOT REALLY A GREAT CONVERSATION.
FOR YEARS WE THOUGHT ENGAGEMENT WITH THE CHINESE AND ECONOMIC ENGAGEMENT WITH DISNEY AND APPLE WOULD HELP MAKE OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH CHINA GOOD.
WAS THAT A FLAWED THESIS?
YEAH, I THINK IT WAS.
AND IT IS ONE THAT A LOT OF US ALL SUBSCRIBE TO, IF WE'RE HONEST WITH OURSELVES.
WE HAD A BIPARTISAN, REALLY WHOLE OF SOCIETY CONSENSUS THAT AT THE END OF THE COLD WAR, WITH OUR SUCCESS AND TRIUMPH IN THAT COLD WAR, THAT IT WAS INEVITABLE THAT CHINA WAS GOING TO HAVE TO LIBERALIZE OVER TIME AS WELL AND THAT WE COULD HASTEN THAT LIBERALIZATION BY ENGAGING WITH CHINA.
AND IT WAS A -- IT WAS BIG HEARTED.
IT WAS OPTIMISTIC.
AND IT WAS ALSO A LITTLE BIT ARROGANT.
AND UNFORTUNATELY TURNED OUT TO BE WRONG.
WE THOUGHT THAT BY OPENING UP OUR MARKETS, PROVIDING CAPITAL, TRAINING CHINA'S ENTREPRENEURS AND SCIENTISTS AND MILITARY OFFICERS AND GOVERNMENT TECHNOCRATS THAT WE WOULD HAYS THAN LIBERALIZATION OF THEIR MARKETS AT FIRST AND HOPED OVER TIME WE'D MAKE SHARE SYSTEM MORE PLURALISTIC AS WELL.
THE POLITICAL SYSTEM.
WE NOW KNOW 20, 30 YEARS ON.
ITS BEEN 20 YEARS SINCE CHINA ENTERED THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION THAT CHINA IS NOT ONLY NOT LIBERALIZING ANYMORE.
IT IS ACTUALLY MOVING BACKWARDS TOWARDS AN EARLIER ERA.
I'VE WATCHED YOUR CAREER EVER SINCE YOU WERE AT WALL STREET.
GREAT 'WALL STREET JOURNAL' REPORTER IN CHINA AND THROUGH MANY THINGS, THE MARINE CORPS.
TELL ME, WHY DID YOU JOIN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?
YEAH, WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M -- I SWORE AN OATH WHEN I BECAME A MARINE TO THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
AND THAT'S MY -- THAT'S MY NORTH STAR, YOU KNOW.
AND YOU KNOW, I'M -- I BELIEVE THAT WHEN PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ASKS YOU TO SERVE, YOU -- YOU -- YOUR DEFAULT DECISION HAS GOT TO BE TO SAY YES.
I'M REALLY PROUD OF MY SERVICE IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
I'M VERY PROUD OF THE FOREIGN POLICY THAT CAME OUT OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
I THINK ITS BEEN UNDERVALUED IN, YOU KNOW, SORT OF MAINSTREAM DISCOURSE AND OVER TIME I THINK PEOPLE ARE GOING TO REALIZE THAT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE ACHIEVED WITH THE PARADIGM SHIFT ON OUR APPROACH TO CHINA, STRENGTHENING NATO IN REALITY, EVEN THOUGH WE WERE TOUGH ON NATO RHETORICALLY, WE WERE ABLE TO ABSTRACT, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF ADDITIONAL DOLLARS OVER THE COURSE OF THE DECADE FOR EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TO STAND UP FOR THEIR DEFENSE.
AND THEN YOU HAVE GOT THINGS LIKE THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS.
THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN -- IF THAT HAD BEEN A DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATION THAT IT ACHIEVED, YOU KNOW, PEACE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND MULTIPLE SUNNI ARAB, YOU KNOW, MONARCHIES, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A PRETTY BIG STORY I THINK IN A DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATION.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE PULLED SOME RABBITS OUT OF THE HAT.
IN YOUR FOREIGN AFFAIRS PIECE YOU TALK ABOUT HOW CHINA HAS NOW ADOPTED A TACTIC I THINK RUSSIA HAS BEEN USING OF USING OUR OWN SOCIAL MEDIA TO DO THINGS LIKE SPREAD CONSPIRACY THEORIES.
SPREAD WHAT QANON IS SAYING.
UNDERMINE BELIEF IN VACCINES.
UNDERMINE VARIOUS WAY, PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURES FOR COVID AND VACCINES.
HOW DANGEROUS IS THAT AND WHY HAVEN'T MORE REPUBLICANS PUSHED BACK AGAINST THESE DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS?
MUCH OF WHICH ACCORDING TO YOUR PIECE ARE BEING AMPLIFIED BY CHINA TO UNDERMINE OUR COUNTRY.
YEAH, YEAH, I THINK THAT AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENTS ARE LOOKING AT OUR SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS AS A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO INFLUENCE AMERICAN POPULATIONS.
AND THE POPULATIONS OF OTHER FREE SOCIETIES.
AND SO THE RUSSIANS, BUT THE CHINESE NOW, PROBABLY WITH EVEN GREATER RESOURCES THAN THE RUSSIANS APPLIED, HAVE BANNED ALL OF OUR PLATFORMS IN THEIR OWN BORDERS BUT ARE NOW ENERGETICALLY USING THEM FOR BOTH OVERT PROPAGANDA BUT ALSO CONVERT PROPAGANDA THAT MAKES USE OF ALGORITHMS AND BOTS AND PROXIES THAT TRY TO CREATE THE ILLUSION OF ORGANIC, REAL CITIZEN DISCOURSE.
WHEN IN FACT IT IS HIGHLY ORCHESTRATED DISCOURSE DESIGNED TO DO A NUMBER OF THINGS.
AND YOU HAVE MENTIONED SOME OF THEM.
ONE IS DESIGNED TO FIND THOSE AREAS WHERE THERE ARE DIVISIONS IN OUR SOCIETY OR AT LEAST CRACKS AND TO TRY TO TAP WEDGES INTO THESE CRACKS.
THEY ARE TRYING TO AMP UP DIVISION AND CONTROVERSY.
ANOTHER AREA IS SIMPLY TO TRY TO CAUSE AMERICANS TO LOSE FAITH IN OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT, EVEN THOUGH OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT FOR ALL OF ITS FLAWS HAS WORKED PRETTY DARN WELL AND HELL OF A LOT BETTER THAN CHINA'S SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE HAS WORKED FOR ITS PEOPLE.
COMMUNICATION PARTY HAS ONLY BEEN IN POWER FOR SEVEN DECADES IN CHINA.
THEY HAVE KILLED ROUGHLY 50 MILLION OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE THROUGH ABUSE BY MAO ZEDONG, THE GREAT LEAP FORWARD, CULTURAL REVOLUTION AND MANY FEEL WE MAY BE SLIDING BACK INTO AN ERA WHERE BECAUSE ALL DECISIONS ARE NOW BEING MADE BY ONE MAN AT THE TOP.
IF THAT ONE MAN AT THE TOP MAKES A MISTAKE, THAT IS GOING TO REVERBERATE THROUGH SOCIETY IN WAYS THAT CAN BE EXTREMELY DISRUPTIVE AND EVEN DEADLY.
SO THEY ARE TRYING TO CAUSE PEOPLE TO DOUBT THAT OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT CAN DELIVER.
AND SO I'M -- I ACTUALLY GIVE CREDIT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN FOR HAVING SPOKEN OUT REPEATEDLY ABOUT THE IDEA THAT THIS IS REALLY A IN SOME RESPECTS AN IDEOLOGICAL COMPETITION WE'RE IN.
IT IS ABOUT AS HE'S PUT IT, WHETHER DEMOCRACY IS STILL GOING TO PROVE ITSELF AND REFRESH ITSELF, TO CONTINUE TO BE THE GREATEST HOPE FOR HUMANITY OR WHETHER WE'RE GOING ALLOW THIS FLOWING TIDE OF AUTHORITARIANISM TO CORRUPT OUR SYSTEMS AND UNDERMINE OUR SOVEREIGNTY.
SO DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP AND MAYBE SOME OF O HIS ENABLERS AND SUPPORTERS ALSO HELPED SPREAD DISINFORMATION, WHETHER IT BE ON COVID OR EVEN ABOUT THE ELECTION?
WELL I THINK -- I THINK THAT THE ELECTION OUTCOME WAS LITIGATED.
AND JUDGES APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF CAME OUT WITH THEIR DETERMINATION ON THE OUTCOME.
AND THAT LED TO PRESIDENT BIDEN BEING THE PRESIDENT.
I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT PART OF UPHOLDING THE CONSTITUTION IS TO LIVE BY THE THREE BRANCHES OF OUR GOVERNMENT.
AND WHEN JUDGES DETERMINE THAT THE ELECTION HAS COME OUT A CERTAIN WAY, YOU HAVE GOT RESPECT THAT AND WE MOVE ON.
YOU ARE SAYING TRUMP REALLY SHOULD QUIT SAYING THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.
YEAH, I DON'T THINK THAT, UMM -- THAT WE CAN SAY THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN WHEN, UNDER OUR SYSTEM JUDGES DETERMINED THAT THE OUTCOME CAME OUT THE WAY IT DID.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE SHOULDN'T FIND WAYS TO IMPROVE OUR ELECTION SYSTEM SO THAT EVERYBODY CAN HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT OUR ELECTIONS ARE FREE AND FAIR.
AND WE'VE OBVIOUSLY GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO ON THAT AND I HOPE WE MOVE FORWARD WITH THAT IN A VERY BIPARTISAN WAY.
BUT YOU QUIT.
YOU RESIGNED FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THE DAY AFTER THE ASSAULT ON THE CAPITOL.
WAS THAT BECAUSE YOU WERE WORRIED ABOUT THE THREATS OF DEMOCRACY THAT HAD BEEN HAPPENING THERE?
AND BECAUSE THE ADMINISTRATION HAD HELPED STOKE SOME OF THAT.
I RESIGNED ON THE 6th.
THE AFTERNOON OF THE -- OF THOSE PROTESTS.
AND, YOU KNOW, I FELT JUST GIVEN THE EVENTS OF THAT DAY THAT IT WAS APPROPRIATE FOR ME TO LEAVE.
MATT POTTINGER.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANKS WALTER.
GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.
> SO LET'S JUST REEMPHASIZE THE DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP LEFT BECAUSE OF THAT 'ASSAULT ON DEMOCRACY,' ON JANUARY 6th.
AND RIGHTLY SAYS ONE OF THE GREAT CHANGES NOW GOING FORWARD NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES BUT FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD IS TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY AGAINST THE GROWING AUTHORITARIANISM AROUND THE WORLD.
> FINALLY TONIGHT IN FRANCE, LIBERTY, EQUALITY AND ARTISTRY, AS WE SPEAK, ONE OF THE GREAT PARIS LAND MARX IS BEING TRAMPLED INTO A WORK OF ART SIXTY YEARS IN THE MAKING.
THE ARC DE TRIOMPHE IS BEING WRAPPED IN SILVER BLUE FABRIC POSTHUMOUSLY FULFILLING A LIFELONG DREAM OF THE ARTIST CHRISTO WHO DIED LAST YEAR.
AND VISITORS WILL BE ABLE TO TOUCH THE FABRIC AND EVEN STEP OUT ON TO IT WHEN THEY REACH THE MONUMENT'S ROOF TERRACE.
CHRISTO AND HIS LATE WIFE JEAN CLAUDE WRAPPED MANY, MANY LANDMARKS AROUND THE WORLD.
I SPOKE TO CHRISTO IN 2018 HERE IN LONDON ABOUT HIS MASTABA MEGA STRUCTURE FLOATING ON THE SERPENTINE LAKE IN LONDON'S HYDE PARK.
HE TOLD ME WHILE SOME MIGHT NOT QUITE UNDERSTAND HIS WORK, WHAT MATTERS IS THAT THEY HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT AT ALL.
YOUR WORKS ALWAYS SPARK A HUGE AMOUNT OF CONVERSATION.
CONTROVERSY, YEAH.
AND CONTROVERSY.
LOT OF CONTROVERSY, YEAH.
THERE ARE PEOPLE.
WHO DON'T LIKE IT.
SWIM HERE ALL TIME AND SAY WHAT IS THIS?
WHY IS IT BLOCK OUR VIEW?
WE DON'T LIKE IT.
OF COURSE.
ANY INTERPRETATION IS LEGITIMATE.
NEGATIVE, POSITIVE, THEY ARE ALL HOW IT WORK IN THE MIND OF THE PEOPLE.
THIS IS WHY DO THE PROJECT, TO GENERATE THE THINKING.
CHRISTO, WHOSE MEGA PROJECTS ALSO CAPTIVATE SOD MANY IMAGINATIONS FOR SO LONG.
THAT IS IT FOR NOW.
THAT'S IT FOR NOW.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING ON PBS.
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.
THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
KU AND PATRICIA UWEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
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