September 21, 2021

> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

IT'S TIME TO RING THE ALARM BELL.

WE ARE ON THE VERGE OF A PRECIPICE AND WE ARE MOVING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

A WARNING FROM THE U.N. ON CLIMATE, COVID AND THE DEMOCRATIC TRANS ATLANTIC ALLIANCE.

ANTHONY GARDNER AND BEIJING INSIDER VICTOR GAU JOIN ME.

THEN --

ONE CANNOT WEAPONIZE A HORSE TO AGGRESSIVELY ATTACK A CHILD.

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE.

HAITIANS ARE THE LATEST TO EXPERIENCE THIS ABUSE.

AND --

THIS IS NOT BASED ON DOUBT, IT'S MISTRUST.

AUTHOR LEE McINTIRE TELLS US HOW TO TALK TO SCIENCE DENIERS.

> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND HE HAD GUARD WALKENHEIM III, THE CHERYL AND PHIL MILSTEIN FAMILY, THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND, THE STRAWS FAMILY FOUNDATION, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN HAS ADDRESSED THE U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY USING THE PODIUM TO REACH OUT AND ASSURE THE WORLD.

WE ARE NOT SEEKING A NEW COLD WAR OR A WORLD DIVIDED INTO RIGID BLOCKS.

UNITED STATES IS READY TO WORK WITH ANY NATION THAT STEPS UP AND PURSUES PEACEFUL RESOLUTION TO SHARE CHALLENGES, EVEN IF WE HAVE INTENSE DISAGREEMENTS IN OTHER AREAS.

TALKING UP ALLIANCES AND GLOBAL COOPERATION AS WELL AS AMERICA'S COMMITMENT TO LEAD.

BUT IN THE BACKGROUND A BREWING REALIGNMENT THAT FRANCE CALLS A CRISIS AND A BREACH OF TRUST AFTER BEING CUT OUT OF A SUBMARINE DEAL IN THE PACIFIC, A DEAL THAT HAS ALSO ANGERED CHINA AS IT LOOKS LIKE WASHINGTON HAS DECIDED THAT BEIJING IS, IN FACT, AN ADVERSARY.

WITH ME TO ASSESS ALL OF THIS IS AN THOEN ANY GARDNER.

WE HOPE TO BRING IN VICTOR GAU.

SO LET'S START WITH YOU, ANTHONY GARDNER.

WHO WINS OUT OF THIS?

YOU CAN SEE PRESIDENT BIDEN IS TRYING TO REASSURE WE'RE NOT TRYING TO HAVE A COLD WAR.

THEY'RE TRYING TO DOWNPLAY IT AND SPIN IT AND SAY THIS IS A SPAT WITH EUROPE THAT'S GOING TO PASS.

WHAT IS IT IN YOUR MIND AND WHO WINS?

WELL, CHRISTIAN, NO ONE WINS.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE TIMING.

THINGS ARE GOING SO WELL.

THE FIRST SIX MONTHS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WE WERE HITTING THE RESET BUTTON WITH EUROPE AND THE E.U. IN THINGS WERE MOVING IN THE RIGHT WE WERE DEFUSING OUR TRADE TENSION.WE WERE GETTING A GOOD X AGREEMENT AT THE OEDC IN PARIS.

WE HAD CHANGED THE WHOLE TONE.

WE HAD LAUNCHED AT THE SUMMIT WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AND COULD BE A GOOD DIALOGUE AND NOW WE HAVE THIS SPAT AND I SAY IT'S UNFORTUNATE BECAUSE IT COULD HAVE A LOT OF RAMIFICATIONS IN TERMS OF THE PACIFIC, IT COULD MEAN THAT THE E.U. IS NOT GOING TO GO FORWARD WITH THIS DEAL WITH AUSTRALIA.

IT COULD MEAN THAT THIS TRADE TECHNOLOGY COUNCIL IS GOING TO BE DELAYED.

IN FACT, WE GOT A BIT OF A HUNT OF THAT AND IT COULD MEAN THAT THE FRENCH ARE GOING TO BE LESS FAVORED ON THE NORTHERN IRELAND THE FRENCH COULD SAY TO THE E.U.

MEMBER STATE COLLEAGUES, I TOLD YOU AMERICA'S BACK MEANS AMERICA'S BACK IN AMERICA AND THEREFORE WE NEED TO DO MORE IN TERMS OF STRATEGIC AUTONOMY.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE.

THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WIN ARE THE ONES WHO WANT TO SEE A DIVIDED ALLIANCE.

SO THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

LET'S JUST BACK UP TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS NEW DEAL THAT THE UNITED STATES, BRITTAIN AND AUSTRALIA STRUCK TO TAKE NUCLEAR POWERED SUBS.

FRANCE IS FURIOUS, IT THOUGHT IT HAD THE DEAL.

BEFORE WE GET TO THIS DIVISION THAT BEIJING MIGHT SEEK TO EXPLOIT WITH THE ALLIANCE, SOME ARE SAYING THAT ACTUALLY THE UNITED STATES FOR ALL OF THE ANGST THIS MIGHT BE CAUSING RIGHT NOW IS STATING STAKING OUT ITS POSITION, IT'S ASKING THE WORLD TO BET ON IT AS EVENTUALLY BEING, I DON'T WANT TO SAY TRIUMPHANT OR DOMINANT, BUT WINNING THE COMPETITION WITH CHINA.

IT'S A BIG BET BY AUSTRALIA TO REALIGN ITS POSITION IN THE PACIFIC AND ALSO POTENTIALLY AN ATTEMPT TO KEEP CHINA IN ITS ZONE AND NOT ELSEWHERE.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

I MEAN, DO YOU BUY THAT AT ALL?

YES, I DO.

LET'S REMEMBER THAT THERE ARE SOME COUNTRIES THAT ARE APPLAUDING THIS.

THE JAPANESE HAVE SAID SO.

THE INDIANS HAVE SAID SO.

I THINK OTHER CAN YOU BE TRIS IN THE INDOE PACIFIC ARE PLEASED THAT THIS AGREEMENT IS GOING AHEAD.

THE FRENCH ARE OBVIOUSLY EXTREMELY ANGRY.

IT'S TRUE THAT THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER MOMENTS OF CRISIS.

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST.

I REMEMBER WHEN I TOOK UP MY POST IN BRUSSELS IT WAS A FEW WEEKS AFTER THE EDWARD SNOWDEN AFFAIR.

WE HAD THE IRAQ WAR.

THIS WAS A VERY SERIOUS CRISIS.

I HOPE WE CAN DEAL WITH THIS SWIFTLY AND INVOLVE FRANCE PERHAPS IN THIS DEAL.

IT SHOULD NOT BE SEEN AS EXCLUSIONARY.IT SHOULD NOT BE SS EXCLUDING FRANCE.

IT HAS REAL ASSETS IN THAT AREA AND HAS REAL INTERESTS IN THE INDOPACIFIC.

ASSETS, YOU'RE RIGHT, IT'S ONE OF THE THREE THAT HAS NAVAL AND OTHER ASSETS OUT THERE.

BUT TO YOUR POINT ABOUT FRANCE'S POSITION, YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY, LIKE MANY PEOPLE, BEEN LISTENING TO THE FOREIGN MINISTER WHO'S BEEN VERY, VERY UNDID YOU PLOE MA PARTICULAR.

Translator: THE UNILATERALLISM, UNPREDICTABILITY THAT WE HAVE SEEN DISPLAYED IN THE DECISION TAKEN BY AUSTRALIA AND THE UNITED STATES IS PERSISTENCE FROM REFLEXES FROM AN ERA THAT WE HOPED WAS OVER.

YOU READ THAT AS SAYING WHAT, THAT WE HOPED THE TRUMP ERA WAS OVER, THE BLATANT ME FIRST ERA WAS OVER?

HOW DO YOU THINK ALLIES AND OTHERS WILL LOOK AT A BIDEN ADMINISTRATION VERSUS A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

IT'S VERY UNFORTUNATE LANGUAGE.

CLEARLY THIS ADMINISTRATION IS NIGHT AND DAY COMPARED TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

WANTS TO WORK WITH ALLIES.

THIS IS THE MOST PRO EUROPEAN ADMINISTRATION FRANKLY I CAN REMEMBER AND I WORKED WITH ONE VERY PRO EUROPEAN ADMINISTRATION.U JUST LOOK AT TT ARE STAFFING THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND WHITE HOUSE AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS.

THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT KNOW EUROPE AND ARE VERY SYMPATHETIC TO EUROPE.

I SAY THIS BECAUSE I THINK AT THIS CORE IT'S ANGER ABOUT THE WAY IT WAS ANNOUNCED.

CLEARLY THE' NOT ABOUT THE DECISION ITSELF AS ANY COUNTRY, AUSTRALIA INCLUDED HAS A SOVEREIGN RIGHT TO DECIDE HOW IT WANTS TO PROTECT ITSELF, WHAT KIND OF MILITARY SYSTEMS IT WISHES TO PURCHASE.

IN THIS CASE IT MADE A DECISION TO MOVE AWAY FROM THE FRENCH SYSTEM TO THE U.S. AND U.K.

SYSTEM.

LOOK, IT'S VERY HARD TO JUDGE IN TERMS OF THE COMPLAINT ABOUT HOW IT WAS ANNOUNCED WITHOUT HAVING ACCESS TO THE CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION WHICH I DON'T HAVE BUT, AGAIN, I THINK IT'S UNFORTUNATE TO MAKE SUCH A BIG DEAL OUT OF THIS BECAUSE THERE ARE MUCH BIGGER ISSUES AT STAKE.

CLIMATE CHANGE, CHINA, THE CHALLENGE THAT CHINA POSES TO US AND ALSO TRANS ATLANTICICALLY.

SO LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE ONE OF THE OTHER BIG THINGS AND THIS OBVIOUSLY COMES OFF THE BACK IS THE PERCEPTION, MAYBE THE REALITY, AS FAR AS WE KNOW THE REALITY THAT THE EUROPEANS, OF WHICH FRANCE IS A MAJOR PLAYER WITH TROOPS ON THE GROUND, WERE VERY, VERY UPSET ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED OBVIOUSLY WITH THE AFGHANISTAN PULLOUT.

THEY FELT BLINDSIDED.

NATO WAS SORT OF DEFANGED.

YOU'VE HEARD THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT TELL ME JUST YESTERDAY THAT, YOU KNOW,ME BEING TREATED IN WAYS THEY SHOULDN'T BE AND WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON.

IS THERE A FUNDAMENTAL REALIGNMENT THAT YOU CAN SEE OR A MOVING AWAY IN THE UNITED STATES IN MAJOR ASPECTS, COVID, CLIMATES, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STILL BE ON THE TABLE, BUT FROM -- FROM NATO AND FROM THE TRADITIONAL POST WORLD WAR IS IT FINALLY NOW TIME TO FULLY FOCUS ON ASIA?

NO.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE VIEW IN WASHINGTON.I THINK THERE'S A FUL APPRECIATION THAT EUROPE REMAINS IMPORTANTLY VITAL TO ACHIEVE OUR COMMON OBJECTIVES.

I LIVE THIS AND I THINK IT'S STILL THE CASE.

I MENTION CLIMATE CHANGE AS ONE EXAMPLE.

WITHOUT THIS THERE ARE ISSUES.

THERE ARE MANY OTHER ISSUES FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT TO TRADE AND SO IT NEEDS TO PUNCH ABOVE ITS WEIGHT IN REGULATION.

SO I DON'T THINK THE VIEW IS A FULL PIVOT TO ASIA AND I WOULD ALSO ADD, CHRISTIAN, I'M NOT SURE THAT THERE ARE THAT MANY OF THE E.U. MEMBER STATES WHO SHARE FRANCE'S IRE AND NOT ONLY THE BALANCE PARTICULAR STATES BUT ALSO THE CENTRAL EUROPEAN STATES WHO ARE VIEWED IN THE PACIFICY S CRITICAL AS THE FRENCH.

THE FRENCH ARE MAKING TOO MUCH OUT OF THIS.

THEY HAVE CLEAR REASONS TO BE UPSET BUT IN MY VIEW IT'S PERHAPS BETTER HANDLED IN

SO LET ME JUST ASK YOU ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THAT ALSO LEADS ME TO, YOU KNOW, YEAH, THEY THINK THE U.S., I MEAN, CLEARLY THE AUSTRALIANS LIKE TO BE UNDER THE U.S. MILITARY UMBRELLA.

WHAT DOES IT SAY IF YOU SIGNED UP TO BE UNDER THE UMBRELLA, DESSERT YOU FOR SOMEBODY ELSE.

TAKING SOMEBODY ELSE TO THE DANCE BASICALLY.

WELL, HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE NOT MANY STATES WHO SHARE THAT PERCEPTION AND THAT IS WHY I START OUT BY SAYING WE HAVE A LONG, RICH, DEEP AGENDA WHICH WE SHOULD BE WORKING ON.

THERE ARE SOME REALLY SERIOUS ISSUES HERE AND THE DIGITAL AGENDA, THE TRADE AGENDA ARE SO IMPORTANT AND WE JUST CAN'T -- WE JUST CAN'T PUSH THEM, YOU KNOW, INTO THE DISTANCE BECAUSE WE HAVE DISAGREEMENT ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR DISPUTE.

BUT I'M NOT DOWNPLAYING THE FACT THAT THE FRENCH ARE VERY ANNOYED.I JUST DON'T KNOW ALL TE REASONS WHY THEY THINK THIS WAS SPRUNG ON THEM WITHOUT ANY CONSULTATION.

I FIND IT JUST FRANKLY DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE.

I KNOW A LOT OF THE ACTORS IN WASHINGTON AND I FIND IT DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONSULTATION BEFORE THIS WAS DONE.

WELL, I AGREE WITH YOU.

IT SOUNDS UNDIPLOMATIC.

I'VE TALKED TO THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF FRENCH DIPLOMACY AND APPARENTLY IT WAS.

THEY WERE TOLD AT THE END OF AUGUST THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND THEN IT DIDN'T BUT WE MAY HAVE MORE REVELATIONS AND I'M PREPARED TO OBVIOUSLY ENGAGE WITH THAT AFTERWARDS.

CAN I ASK YOU, IT'S NOT SO MUCH ABOUT A SPAT THAT I'M TRYING TO GET TO, I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT FINALLY THE U.S. AND EUROPE CAN DO TO INCREASE THEIR POSITION VIS-A-VIS CHINA, WHICH EVERYBODY IS CALLING, YOU KNOW, IN SOME -- AS YOU'VE JUST SAID IN SOME AREAS A PARTNER ON COVID AND CLIMATE, IN SOME AREAS IT'S A COMPETITOR ON DIGITAL, INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND ALL OTHER THINGS AND SOME AN ADVERSARY.SOME ARE SAYING THE UD STATES HAS CHOSEN TO TURN CHINA AN ADVERSARY WITH THIS MOVE, THAT'S THE SIGNAL.

BIDEN SAID NO COLD WAR AND THE CHINESE ARE PRETTY ANGRY BECAUSE THEY THINK IT LOOKS LIKE IT MIGHT BE.

LET ME PLAY THIS FROM THE CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESMAN.

Translator: RELEVANT PEOPLE SHOULD ABANDON THIS.

RESPECT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE OF REGIONAL COUNTRIES AND DO MORE TO CONTRIBUTE TO REGIONAL PEACE, STABILITY AND GOVERNMENT.

OTHERWISE, THEY WILL ONLY END UP SHOOTING THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT.

SO THE SECRETARY GENERAL HAS CALLED THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CHINA AND THE U.S.

DYSFUNCTIONAL.

IT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT IN THE WORLD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES NOW, AND EUROPE, CAN ACTUALLY GET OUT OF CHINA AS PARTNERS?R INSTANCE, IN THE ISSE WERE TALKING ABOUT, COVID, CLIMATE, AND ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT THEY HAVE.

CLIMATE'S NUMBER ONE.

CHINA IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL IN GETTING ANY MEANINGFUL AGREEMENT BUT THE CLOCK IS TICKING.

NOT JUST CLIMATE, NONPROLIFERATION AND COVID AND PREPARING FOR FUTURE PAN DEM MIX.

THOSE ARE THREE EXAMPLES.

THE PRESIDENT MADE IT CLEAR EVEN WITH COUNTRIES WHERE WE HAVE INTENSE DISAGREEMENTS, THERE ARE AREAS WHERE WE WILL, HOPEFULLY CAN COLLABORATE.

THE FACT THE CHINESE ARE UPSET CAN BE DISCOUNTED.

IT'S RATHER A GOOD SIGN.

THIS IS A COUNTRY THAT CONTINUES TO BE RATHER AGGRESSIVE, VERY AGGRESSIVE.

BULLYING ITS NEIGHBORS.

SO CHINA HAS TO REALIZE THAT BY CONTINUING TO ENGAGE IN WHAT IS CALLED WOLF -- WOLF DIPLOMACY, RIGHT, THAT THEY'RE PUSHING A LOT OF COUNTRIES INTO THE LAP OF THE ALLIANCE AND THAT THEY'RE UNDERMINING THEIR OWN INTERESTS.

BUT YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING IMPORTANT.

THERE'S A VERY FULL AGENDA HERE.

THIS IS WHAT THE TRADE AND TECHNOLOGY COUNCIL IS SUPPOSED TO DO.

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE A DIALOGUE ON FOREIGN DIRECT INVESTMENTS, ON MAKING SURE THE SUPPLY CHAINS ARE MORE ROBUST, MORE RESILIENT.

HOW DO WE TOGETHER SET THE RULES OF TRADE?

WE SHOULD BE GETTING ON WITH THAT WORK.

INDEED.

THIS IS A PERFECT JUMPING OFF POINT FOR ME BECAUSE WE'RE JOINED FROM BEIJING.

STAND BY, AMBASSADOR GARDNER.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, VICTOR GAU.

YOU MAY HAVE HEARD HIM SAY THAT QUITE A FEW PEOPLE IN THE REGION DON'T HAVE ANY QUALMS WITH THIS, THEY'RE QUITE HAPPY.

THEY SEE BAYENING AND INDEED YOUR PRESIDENT HAS SAID IT AND HE SAID IT A FEW YEARS AGO BEIJING'S POLICY WILL BE BACKED UP ABOUT ITS MILITARY.

IT HAS HAD, AS YOU KNOW I'M SURE, A MORE AGGRESSIVE POLICY OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS.

ARE YOU REALLY SURPRISED THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED, VICTOR GAU?

SO I DON'T THINK CHINA HAS AN AGGRESSIVE FOREIGN POLICY OR NATIONAL DEFENSE POLICY.

CHINA'S NATIONAL DEFENSE IS PURELY FOR SELF-DEFENSE.

CHINA DOES NOT HAVE SINGLE SOLDIER STATIONED ABROAD EXCEPT FOR A SMALL PRESENCE IN CHIBUTI AND THIS IS COMPARING WITH MORE THAN 200 MILITARY BASES OF THE UNITED STATES IN ALL CORNERS OF THE WORLD.

I THINK WHAT YOU SEE IN CHINA OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS IS REALLY PUSHING BACK AGAINST TREMENDOUS AMOUNT ANTICHINA HOSTILITY LAUNCHED AGAINST CHINA BY THE UNITED STATES IN PARTICULAR AND I THINK THE PEOPLE SHOULD BE ACCUSTOMED TO THIS KIND OF PUB BACK BECAUSE CHINA WILL NEED TO STAND UP AND DEFEND ITS OWN NATIONAL OFF VERN AT THIS AND NATIONAL INTERESTS.

SO WHAT DOES CHINA DO NOW, VICTOR GAU?

PRESIDENT BIDEN TOLD THE WORLD NO COLD WAR, AND WE'VE BEEN STILL HAS TO BE COOPERATION ON THE VITAL ISSUES, CLIMATE THE NUMBER ONE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT XI JINPING WILL DO?

COOPERATE ON CLIMATE?

TAKE EVASIVE ACTION?

WHAT DO YOU PREDICT WILL HAPPEN?

FIRST OF ALL, I LISTENED VERY BIDEN HAD TO SAY JUST NOW AND I THINK HE TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT SAID AND TALKED THE RIGHT TALK BUT IT'S MORE IMPORTANT TO SEE WHAT THE TALK AND WHAT THE WALK OF THE UNITED STATES WILL WALK BECAUSE I THINK SOME OF THE POINTS HE MADE QUITE ELOQUENTLY IS EXACTLY AGAINST WHAT'S THE UNITED STATES DOING RIGHT NOW?

FOR EXAMPLE, FOR AUKUS YOU MENTIONED, FROM THE CHINESE PERSPECTIVE IT LOOKS LIKE A STRONG VIOLATION OF A NONPROLIFERATION TREATY AND ALSO IT TAKES A LOT OF RISK BECAUSE IT IS DEPRIVING AUSTRALIA FROM THE COVETED STATUS FROM THE SOUTH PACIFIC ZONE AND GOING FORWARD IT REALLY INVITES AUSTRALIA TO BE TARGETED WITH NUCLEAR WARHEADS GOING FORWARD JUST IN CASE A WAR, GOD FOR BID, REALLY BREAKS OUT AMONG MAJOR POWERS.

SO THIS IS AGAINST THE FUNDAMENTAL INTERESTS OF THE AUSTRALIAN PEOPLE AND EMBRACING AUKUS, AUSTRALIA LOSES ITS VERY UNIQUE STATUS AS BEING PART OF A NUCLEAR FREE SOUTH PACIFIC REGION.

YET AUSTRALIA SEEMS TO HAVE BET THE UNITED STATES WILL COME OUT ON TOP OVER CHINA IN THE REGION.THERE IS A LOT OF TALK AT WAR.

YOUR PRESIDENT HAS TALKED A LOT ABOUT TAIWAN AND I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

I KNOW YOU BELIEVE THAT BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY IT NEEDS TO BE WHAT MESSAGE DO YOU GET FROM THE UNITED STATES AND NATO FROM WHAT THEY'VE DONE IN AFGHANISTAN, FOR INSTANCE?

DO YOU THINK TAIWAN WILL BE DEFENDED BY THE U.S.?

FIRST OF ALL, WHAT THE UNITED STATES DID REGARDING ITS WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN IS A COMPLETE CHAOS AND COMPLETE SIGN OF INFORMING HER, INFORMING THE NATIONAL TROOPS AND INFORMING THEIR COUNTERPARTS IN AFGHANISTAN.

LEAVING BEHIND NOT ONLY U.S.

CITIZENS, U.S. GREEN CARDHOLDERS AND THE ALLIES AMONG THE AFGHAN PEOPLE.

IT DOES NOT LOOK WELL.

I HOPE THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, THE UNITED STATES MILITARY WILL REALLY REFLECT WHY THEY WENT THROUGH THAT.

NOW YOU MENTIONED TAIWAN.

TAIWAN'S PART OF CHINA AND ALL OF THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, INCLUDING THE UNITED NATIONS, ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.

THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT EVER SINCE 1979 ACKNOWLEDGE THAT'S ACTUALLY THE BASIS OF CHINA/U.S. RELATIONS.

EVERYTHING 1979.

THE NATIONAL REUNIFICATION OF CHINA'S MAIN TAIWAN WILL HAPPEN AND SHED BLOOD OF ITS SONS AND DAUGHTERS.

THE UNITED STATES SEEMS VERY EAGER TO BE THE BIG ARMS DEALER IN SELLING MORE ARMS TO TAIWAN BUT THEY WILL NOT, I'M SURE, SEND TROOPS TO FIGHT FOR THE INDEPENDENCE OF TAIWAN.

THEREFORE, DESPITE ALL OF THE FLUFFING, FOR EXAMPLE, I DON'T THINK REAL WAR WILL TAKE PLACE BETWEEN CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES AS FAR AS TAIWAN'S REUNIFICATION IS CONCERNED.

I HOPE COUNTRIES LIKE AUSTRALIA, WE'RE NOT BEING DISLED, BY SOME OF THE ADAPTATIONS AND CHOOSING TO EMBRACE NUCLEAR SUBMARINE REALLY WILL TAKE AWAY AUSTRALIA'S VERY COVETED STATUS OF BEING A NUCLEAR FREE COUNTRY OR NUCLEAR FREE ZONE.

IT'S REALLY INTERESTING AND WE'RE REALLY PLEASED TO HAVE YOUR INSIGHTS.

VICTOR GAU AND AN THOEN ANY GARDNER.THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOIN.

> AT AMERICA'S SOUTHERN BORDER THOUSANDS OF HAITIAN MIGRANTS ARE TRYING TO REACH THE UNITED STATES.LEST WE FORGET, HAITI WAS BATTERED BY AN EARTHQUAKE AND TROPICAL STORM.

AFTER THE ASSASSINATION OF THEIR PRESIDENT.

AS THEY APPROACH THE UNITED STATES, HAITIAN MIGRANTS ARE BEING MET WITH FORCE.

JUST LOOK AT THESE IMAGES FROM TEXAS APPEARING TO SHOW MOUNTED U.S. BORDER AGENTS AGGRESSIVELY CONFRONTING THEM.

UNITED STATES HOMELAND SECURITY DEPARTMENT CALLS THIS EXTREMELY CONCERNING.IVERS HAS THIS REPORN THEIR DESPERATE JOURNEY.

A PACKED STREET IN SOUTHERN MEXICO RESEMBLING SOMETHING OUT OF PORT AU PRINCE.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HAITIAN MIGRANTS FILL THE STREET.

THE AMOUNT OF HAITIANS MAKING THAT JOURNEY, BOTH GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AND ACTIVISTS SAY IS UNPRECEDENTED.

Translator: WE'VE SEEN MIGRATION BEFORE BUT WE HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS MANY PEOPLE FROM HAITI.

IT'S UNBELIEVABLE.

NEARLY 19,000 HAITIANS AND COUNTING HAVE APPLIED FOR ASYLUM IN MEXICO.

FOR MANY, YOU WILL ARRIVE NORTH.

HERE DOZENS OF MIGRANTS, MANY OF THEM HAITIANS, TAKE A FERRY TO GET ACROSS THE RIVER.

MOST WILL PAY A FEW DOLLARS TO A MOTORCYCLE TAXI TO TAKE THEM ALONG THE NEXT LEG OF THE JOURNEY.

HE'S SAYING HE'S NEVER SEEN THIS MANY HAITIAN MIGRANTS COME THROUGH HERE.

THESE BUSES WILL EVENTUALLY TAKE THEM TO THE UNITED STATES.

THE U.S. WILL DEPORT THEM BY THE THOUSANDS, BUT THERE ARE MORE

THIS BASE IN SOUTHERN MEXICO WAS ACTUALLY A PLACE WHERE HUNDREDS OF HAITIAN MIGRANTS WERE STAYING ON A TEMPORARY BASIS EVERY SINGLE DAY.

THEY SET UP THIS SHELTER BECAUSE OF THIS RECENT INFLUX.

AS YOU CAN SEE NOW THOUGH, IT'S EMPTY.

ALL THE HAITIANS THAT WERE HERE LEFT.

THEY'RE HEADED NORTH TO THE UNITED STATES.

THIS SURGE IN MIGRATION HAS EVERY CHANCE TO CONTINUE AFTER A DEVASTATING EARTHQUAKE STRUCK HAITI SIX WEEKS AGO.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WERE DISPLACED AND MANY COULD LEAVE THE ISLAND SOON AND EVENTUALLY END UP RIGHT BACK HERE IN SOUTHERN MEXICO U.S. BOUND.

MATT RIVERS REPORTING THERE.

JOINING ME FOR MORE IS BRIGETTE CAMBRIA.

SHE'S AN IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY.

WELCOME, BRIGETTE, TO THE PROGRAM.ASSUME THAT IN ALL YOURS OF THIS WORK YOU'RE QUITE SHOCKED BY WHAT YOU JUST SAW AS THE VICE PRESIDENT HAS SAID, KAMALA HARRIS, DHS SECRETARY SAID, THAT THIS IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR?

WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME AND I WILL SAY THAT THE IMAGES THAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW ARE SHOCKING AND THE IMAGES THAT WE'RE SEEING FOR THE RESPONSE, ENFORCEMENT RESPONSE BY BORDER PATROL ARE SHOCKING AND THE NUMBER THAT WE CEE LO DATED AND ISOLATED IN THIS PARTICULAR AREA ARE RATHER LARGE BUT I WILL SAY THAT THE EXISTENCE OF THE ASYLUM SEEKERS ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER IS NOT SOMETHING THAT'S NEW AND NEITHER IS THE REALLY TARGETED ENFORCEMENT AGAINST PARTICULARLY BLACK IMMIGRANTS AND HAITIANS IN OUR HISTORY.

IT'S FOR THE FIRST TIME I THINK WE'RE SEEING IT LIVE IN THE NEWS AND THE IMAGES THAT WE'RE SEEING ARE SHOCKING BUT I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD DISCOUNT THE FACT THAT THE TARGETED ENFORCEMENT AGAINST THE BLACK IMMIGRANTS ON OUR SOUTHERN BORDER HAVE BEEN HAPPENING FOR SOME TIME.

LET ME PLAY THIS BY THE REGARD TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID TOH SEE IF WHAT HE PROMISES HAS A CHANCE OF HAPPENING.

ONE CANNOT WEAPONIZE A FORCE TO AGGRESSIVELY ATTACK A CHILD.

THAT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND, LET ME BE QUITE CLEAR, THAT IS NOT WE WILL NOT TOLERATE MISTREATMENT AND WE WILL ADDRESS IT BASED ON THE FACTS WE LEARN.

SO MAJOR PROMISES FROM VERY SENIOR AMERICANS RIGHT NOW ABOUT THIS.

DO YOU THINK THEY WILL HAVE A PROPER INVESTIGATION?

AND HOW WILL THEY NOT TOLERATE WHAT WILL BE THE OUTCOME OF THIS, DO YOU THINK?

WHEN THE KIDS WERE PUT IN CAGES.

WE'VE SEEN ALL OF THIS TERRIBLE STUFF FOR WAY TOO LONG NOW.

WHAT DO YOU HOPE WILL BE THE OUTCOME OF ANY INVESTIGATION?

WELL, I DO WELCOME THE COMMENTS OF THE SECRETARY.

I THINK THAT AN INVESTIGATION IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, BUT I WILL SAY THAT AN INVESTIGATION MIGHT NOT BE ENOUGH.

WE'VE HAD CHILDREN DIE IN OUR BORDER PATROL STATIONS.

THIS HAS BEEN ONGOING ISSUES WITH U.S. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION IN THE UNITED STATES AND IT JUST SEEMS TO NOT GO AWAY.

WE NEED MORE THAN INVESTIGATIONS RIGHT NOW, WE NEED ACTION AND WE NEED IMMEDIATE ACTION.

AND I THINK WHAT WOULD LIVE UP TO THE SECRETARY'S WORD IS NOT ONLY A FULL FORCE INVESTIGATION NOW BUT THE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE, HUMANITARIAN RESPONSE OF SENDING PEOPLE TO THE UNITED STATES SOUTHERN BORDER RIGHT NOW TO THIS REGION AND ADDRESSING THE HUMANITARIAN CONCERNS OF THE ASYLUM SEEKERS ON THE BORDER.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

THAT MEANS PERMITTING FULL AND FAIR ACCESS TO THE ASYLUM SYSTEM.

IT MEANS NOT EXPELLING THE HAITIAN MIGRANTS ON THE UNITED STATES BORDER BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LEGITIMATE RIGHT TO SEEK ASYLUM.

IT MEANS STOPPING THE REMOVAL TO HAITI WHILE WE FIGURE OUT WHAT'S THAT WOULD LIVE UP TO WHAT THE SECRETARY EXPRESSED RIGHT THERE.

AN INVESTIGATION THAT DRAGS ON IS NOT GOING TO ADDRESS THE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE THAT'S NEEDED RIGHT NOW, BUT THE IMAGES THAT WE'RE SEEING THAT WE SAW JUST YESTERDAY WITH THE HORSES WHO CHARGED AT CHILDREN OR WERE USING REINS AS WHIPS AGAINST MIGRANTS, THEY WERE NOT ONLY STARTLING AND SHOCKING BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S TRIGGERING.

WITH THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY, TRIGGERING IMAGES AND THERE WERE ALSO OTHER IMAGES THAT CAME OUT FROM WONDERFUL REPORTING ON THE MOTHERS AND FATHERS, CHILDREN THAT WERE TRYING THEIR BEST TO LIVE, TO SURVIVE.

IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY THESE FAMILIES ARE ON THE BORDER RIGHT NOW, THE HISTORY THAT'S BEHIND IT BUT LET'S UNDERSTAND THAT THEY'RE NOT THERE FOR ANY OTHER REASON BUT TO LAWFULLY SEEK PROTECTION FROM THE UNITED STATES WHICH IS THEIR RIGHT.

WHAT WOULD LIVE UP TO THE SECRETARY'S WORDS IS TO GIVE FAMILIES FULL AND FAIR ACCESS TO OUR LAW.

WELL, LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT THAT IN A MOMENT BUT FIRST THE FUNDAMENTAL HUMANITARIAN NECESSITIES YOU SAID THEY NEED AT THE BORDER.

LET'S LISTEN TO ONE OF THE HAITIANS TRYING TO GET ACROSS BECAUSE THEY'RE ESSENTIALLY DYING WITHOUT FOOD AND WATER.

HERE'S WHAT ONE OF THEM SAID.

Translator: I'VE BEEN HUNGRY FOR FOUR DAYS WITH CHILDREN AND NOW I HAVE LEFT THE UNITED STATES TO FIND FOOD IN MEXICO.

PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES DON'T GIVE US ANYTHING, JUST WATER.

SINCE CHILDREN ONLY RECEIVE WATER, CHILDREN ARE GOING HUNGRY.

WE ARE OUT IN THE OPEN.

THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT HAS NO CONSCIENCE.N'T DEPORT HAITIAN HAITI THERE IS NO LIFE.

WHAT THEY'RE DOING, THEY HAVE A POLICY OF IS TRYING TO CUT THE PULL FACTOR AND TRYING TO JUST PUSH THEM BACK.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT WILL WORK?

IT WON'T WORK AND IT HASN'T WORKED IN THE HISTORY OF OUR THE TREATMENT OF ASYLUM SEEKERS ON THE BORDER, PUSHING PEOPLE BACK DOESN'T WORK BECAUSE THEY'RE TRYING TO SAVE THEIR LIVES.

MOST IMMIGRATION ATTORNEYS USE A BURNING HOUSE AND HOW A PARENT WOULD REACT IF THEY WERE IN A BURNING HOUSE.

EXPELLING FAMILIES, PUSHING PEOPLE BACK INTO MEXICO, EVEN DEPORTATION WILL NOT DETER THE ASYLUM SEEKER.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS DENICE THEM ACCESSORIES AND THEY'LL BE THERE LONGER FOR NOT GIVING THEM A FULL, FAIR, LEGAL PROCESS.

THEY'RE GOING TO SIT THERE AND SUFFER.

IT'S GOING TO BE HORRIBLE IMAGES WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE, BUT THESE ARE THE LIVES THAT THEY'RE LIVING AND THIS IS THE LEVEL OF FEAR THAT THEY HAVE.

THEY HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO SIT ON A SOUTHERN BORDER RIGHT NOW WITH THE HOPE THAT AMERICA IS GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING, FOLLOW THEIR OWN LAYS AND FRANKLY UP UNTIL NOW, THEY'RE NOT.

WE KNOW THERE ARE AT LEAST 3 TO 6 EXPULSION STICKS THAT ARE LEAVING FOR HAITI THAT ARE CARRYING HAITIAN MIGRANTS WITHOUT THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO PROTECT ANY RIGHTS IN THE UNITED STATES WHICH THEY'RE ENTITLED TO.

WE'VE SEEN HORRENDOUS SITUATIONS AT THE BORDER OVER THE YEARS AND IT GETS WORSE AND WORSE AND WORSE AND MORE AND MORE INHUMANE.

IT'S UPHELD BY THE FACT THAT THERE IS A BROKEN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

CONGRESS AND EVERYBODY DOESN'T SEEM TO GET IT TOGETHER.

THERE'S SOMETHING LIKE 25,000 PEOPLE TRYING TO COME IN WHO ARE DETAINED ACROSS FACILITIES, ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S VERY DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER COUNTRY THAT UPHOLDS HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRATIC RULE OF LAW.

IN THE U.S. IT'S BEING SUGGESTED THAT DETENTION IS A FORM OF DETERRENCE AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE KEPT ENDLESSLY WITHOUT RULE OF LAW.

HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THAT IN THE UNITED STATES?

AND HOW DOES IT -- YOU KNOW, COMPARE TO HOW OTHER COUNTRIES SIMILAR TO THE UNITED STATES DEAL WITH THIS KIND OF IMMIGRATION AND ASYLUM SEEKING?

WELL, I WOULDN'T SEEK TO COMMENT ON HOW OTHER COUNTRIES RECEIVE THEIR ASYLUM SEEKERS.

I THINK THE UNITED STATES NEEDS A SYSTEM.

WE CAN RETAIN THEM INDEFINITELY IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN MANY CIRCUMSTANCES WE CAN DEFER CHILDREN INDEFINITELY UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.

THE ISSUE IS ON THE BORDER ARE BY AND LARGE THE LONGEST RETAINED POPULATION.

THE MOST COMMON POPULATION.

THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO NOT RECEIVE BAIL AND IN IMMIGRATION IT'S CALLED BOND.

THEY'RE LIKELY TO NOT BE RELEASED FROM CUSTODY.

DURING THE PERIOD OF TITLE XLII WHERE WE SEE THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT REFUSING TO PROVIDE ACCESS TO MIGRANTS ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER.

PRIMARILY THOSE ARE FLOWN OUT OF HAITI.

IT'S TARGETED TYPES OF POLICIES THAT TARGET THE BLACK IMMIGRANT.

WHAT WE SEE RIGHT NOW ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER IS THE MASS OF PEOPLE ALL THAT HAVE A LEGITIMATE RIGHT TO SEEK ASYLUM ALL WITH EXTREMELY TERRIBLE SITUATION GOING ON.

POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

OTHER TYPES OF NATURAL DISASTERS.

REALLY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSE IS GOING TO PUT THEM IN -- TELL THEM WHO WE ARE AS A COUNTRY AND WHETHER WE'RE WILLING TO SEE PEOPLE.

FINALLY AND QUICKLY, IT OBVIOUSLY COSTS A LOT OF MONEY TO DEAL WITH ALL OF THIS.

I JUST WONDERED WHETHER YOU THINK SOME COUNTRIES DO PROVIDE SOCIAL SERVICES.

THEY HAVE SOCIAL AND BASIC LIVELIHOODS NEEDS MET.

DO YOU -- AND I'M TALKING ABOUT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND THE LIKE.

DO YOU THINK THAT HAS A HOPE IN HECK.

THERE ARE LEGITIMATE REASONS FOR ASYLUM THAT TELLS YOU THERE MIGHT BE A CHANGE IN THE SYSTEM AHEAD AT THE U.S. BORDER?

I'LL TELL YOU THAT DURING THE LAST ELECTION WE WERE PROMISED A HUMANE DECISION.

DOES IT STAND A CHANCE IN HECK?

IT BETTER.

THE MAJORITY OF ADVOCATES, THEY RALLIED BEHIND THE ADMINISTRATION BECAUSE WE WERE PROMISED A HUMANE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE NOT SEEING IT.

IT'S REALLY DEVASTATING TO THE PEOPLE THAT WORKED IN THE PROFESSION AND DEVASTATING FOR THE PEOPLE IT'S AFFECTING.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE BEING HARMED BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT HAS NOT LIVED UP AND PROVIDE THEM ACCESS.

WHETHER OR NOT IT'S THE ASYLUM SEEKER, FAMILY, WHATEVER MECHANISM IN IMMIGRATION EXISTS, THERE'S A HIGH EXPECTATION WE'LL TURN THE CORNER OF THE LAST ADMINISTRATION AND HURT THE IMMIGRANT AND WORKED TO HELP THE IMMIGRANT.

THAT CAN VERY WELL BE FIXED BY DOING WHAT YOU MENTIONED, OTHER COUNTRIES DO.

INSTEAD OF USING COMPASSION, COMMUNITY, SOCIAL SERVICES, YOU'RE GOING TO FIND THAT THAT'S MAKING A MORE FUNCTIONING SYSTEM AND IT WILL BE ABLE TO PROCESS PEOPLE LIKE THE HAITIANS SITTING ON A BORDER WAITING FOR THEIR FUNDS TO ACCESS.

WE ALL WANT TO SEE BETTER IMAGES.

THAT ALWAYS SEEMS -- IN THE PAST COUPLE OF DAYS, WE HAVE HIGH TOP EXPELLING IMMIGRANTS.

THAT'S WHAT WE EXPECT.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR EXPERIENCE THERE AND YOUR NOW THE U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL ANTONIO GUTIERREZ AND HE SAYS THE WORLD HAS NEVER BEEN MORE DIVIDED.

I'M HERE TO SOUND THE ALARM.

THE WORLD MUST WAKE UP.

WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE WRONG DIRECTION.

ON ONE HAND WE SEE VACCINE'S DEVELOPED IN RECORD TIME.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU SEE THE TREASURE ENTER THEM.

WITH MISTRUTS COMES LEE McINTIRE EXAMINES THIS IN HIS NEW BOOK HOW TO TALK TO A SCIENCE BUYER.

THANKS, CHRISTIAN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME BACK.

YOUR BOOK IS CALLED HOW TO TALK TO YOUR SCIENCE DENIER.

I CAN'T WAIT.

CAN WE BACK UP TO 9?

DURING A CLIENT'S PASSWORD DON'T LOOK AT ME.

I THINK ONCE THE AMERICAN'S DREAM STARTED, THEY WERE INTERESTED IN COMMITMENT TO SCIENCE AND WHEN DID THE DESIRED AND I'M NOT SURE THEY'VE ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD T. THEY'VE ALWAYS RESERVED THE RIGHT OF BEING SKEPTICAL OF WHAT THEY WANTED TO BELIEVE.

IT WAS A MATTER OF THE FIRST DISINFORMATION FOUNDATION CAME WHICH WAS THE CIGARETTE COMPANIES, TOBACCO COMPANIES IN THE 1950s BECAUSE THERE WAS AN IMPENDING STUDY THAT WAS GOING TO SHOW THAT SMOKING WAS LINKED WITH LUNG CANCER.

THEY BROUGHT IN A PUBLIC RELATIONS EXPERT WHO ADVISED THEM TO FIGHT THE SCIENCE.

THAT'S WHAT THEY DID.

BEFORE SOCIAL MEDIA THEY TOOK OUT FULL PAGE ADDS IN AMERICA'S RESEARCH AND THEY HIRED SOME SCIENTISTS IN A PRECURSOR TO THE AMERICAN TOBACCO INSTITUTE.

THEY DIDN'T NEED TO KNOW IT DIDN'T CAUSE CANCER.

ALL THEY NEEDED TO DO IS SEE THAT THE SCIENTISTS WERE HASTY, THERE'S A DEBATE AND WE SOLD CIGARETTES WHILE THERE WASN'T ANY TIME FOR A SCIENTIFIC BATTLE.

A LOT OF US ARE SEEING HOW THIS IS PLAYING OUT WITH PEOPLE RESISTING VACCINATION, MASK MANDATES.WHAT PERCENTAGE, I DONF THIS IS THE PROTECTIVE WINDOW.

IT DEPENDS ON THE TOPIC.

IT'S HARD TO GET A RELIABLE NUMBERS SHIFT IN GENERAL.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT ARE COVID.

THE MOST RECENT LOGISTIC THAT I SAW WAS PRECOVID.

IT WAS THAT 22% OF AMERICANS SELF-IDENTIFIED.

THAT'S A PREH PERCENTAGE IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

THEN WE'VE SEEN THESE -- I DON'T KNOW.

SHOCKING VIDEOS OF INCIDENTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHERE PEOPLE ARE GETTING INTO PHYSICAL ALTERCATIONS AROUND MASK WEARING.

WE'VE SEEN THIS AT SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS, ON THE STREETS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT'S ABOUT?

IT'S AROUND BELIEVES IN GENERAL.

WHEN YOU ATTACK SOMEBODY'S BELIEVES, YOU'RE NOT JUST ATTACKING WHAT THEY THINK, YOU'RE ATTACKING WHO THEY ARE.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO BELIEVES THAT REBREATHING INTO A MASK IS GOING TO GIVE THEM CARBON DIOXIDE POISING, THOSE ARE NOT EVIDENCE-BASED BELIEFS.

THOSE ARE IDEOLOGICAL MOVIES.

THEY GOT THEM FROM A DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN.

SOMEBODY WANTED THEM TO BELIEVE THAT.

ONCE THEY'VE TAKEN THAT OUT.

, TO CHALLENGE THEM IS A DIRECT INSULT AS A PERSON.

COMPARE THAT WITH THE WAY SCIENTISTS THINK ABOUT BELIEVES.

IF YOU GIVE ME YOUR EVIDENCE.

IN THESE CASE THESE ARE NOT SYMPATHIZERS.

THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE ON THE LINE.

SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON.

THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT I FOUND FASCINATING.

ONE OF THEM WAS THAT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SCIENCE DENIERS DON'T THINK THAT THEY ARE.

THEY THINK THEY HAVE QUESTIONS OR THEY ACTUALLY THINK THEY ARE FOLLOWING THEIR OWN SCIENTIFIC METHOD BUT ONLY SO FAR.

AND A LOT OF IT'S JUST GARBAGE SCIENCE.

I WAS SO FASCINATED BY THAT.

WHAT'S THAT ABOUT?

, I'VE NEVER MET A WLIENTS.

THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE OPEN MINDED TO NEW EVIDENCE.

SUPPOSED TO BE SKEPTICAL.

THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE TERM MEANS.

I GUESS THEY'RE WHAT WE'D CALL CAFETERIA ACCEPT PARTICULARS.

THEY'LL BELIEVE IN SCIENCE ON THE THINGS THAT YOU DON'T STEP ON THEIR IDEOLOGICAL BELIEFS OR SCIENTIFIC BELIEVES.

WHEN THEY CROSS OVER, THEY FEEL PERSONALLY DEPARTMENTED.

WELL, SCIENCE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY, ON THE BASIS OF GROOVE.

AND WHAT THEY CALL WARRANT.

IS THERE SUFFICIENT WARRANT FOR YOUR BELIEF.

SO THE PROBLEM WITH SCIENCE DENIERS IS THAT THEY THINK OF THEMSELVES AS SKEPTICAL.

WHAT THEY ARE IS MORE OPPORTUNISTIC.

THINK OF THE MINDSTAND THAT WON'T ACCEPT THE VACCINES ARE SAFE AND PERSPECTIVE.

THAT'S QUITE A GULLIBLE THING TO DO.

IT COMES BACK TO MY IDEA, IT'S NOT BASED ON DOUBT BECAUSE IF YOU DOUBT SOMETHING, THAT CAN BE OVERCOME BY EVIDENCE.

IF YOU DISCOVER THE PERSON WHO'S DONE THE EVIDENCE FOR YOU.

THAT MAKES IT MUCH HARDER TO GET BACK.

YOU KNOW, I HAVE THE ANSWER THAT MAKES ME TRUE.

AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, ONE OF THE BIGGEST STORIES AROUND IS THAT, YOU KNOW, FAMOUS POP STAR, NICKI MINAJ IS DOING HER RESEARCH AND HER COUSIN'S PRESENT IN TRINIDAD.

AND THIS PART -- THE REASON WE'RE BRINGING THIS.

PUBLIC HEALTH MINISTER OF TRINIDAD HAD IT GLOWING.

THEY HAD INVESTIGATED THIS MATTER.

WHAT IS THAT THE CASE?

THIS IS AN INTELLIGENT PERSON WHO'S VERY EFFICACIOUS ABOUT HER CAREER AND HER THINGS.

YOU SEE WHAT I'M ASKING YOU.

I THINK TODAY PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD ALREADY CALLED HER BECAUSE SOMEBODY WITH A BIG PLATFORM LIKE THAT, DISINFORMATION, AND IT REACHES MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

REMEMBER WHAT I SAID, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PROVE IT THAT IT KEEPS PEOPLE FROM GETTING FOR THAT AND I WIJ GER HER, HER COUSIN, THIS WAS IF HE HAD INFORMATION.

IT WAS THE RESULT OF A PROPAGANDA COMMERCIAL.

THEY NEED -- THE PEOPLE WHO CREATE THIS INFORMATION FEED THAT SORT OF THING OUT THERE.

AND THEN PEOPLE GET VICTIMIZED BY IT.

MAYBE IT'S LESS PERSPECTIVE THAN TO ASK ME, WHO WANTS THEM TO BELIEVE THAT?

THAT'S RIGHT.

WHO WANTS PEOPLE TO BELIEVE MISINFORMATION ABOUT THE COVID

IT'S A GREAT QUESTION AND I'M GLAD YOU ASKED IT BECAUSE VERY FEW PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT.

WE SEEM TO BE FOR THE MOST PART IN GOVERNOR, ALL OF THEM FELL AND THINKING IT'S AN ACCIDENT OR A MISTAKE.

IT'S NOT A MISTAKE IT'S A LIE AND A LIE IS INTENDED TO HAVE A PERSON AND SOMEBODY IS PROFITING FROM IT.

WE SAW HOW THE TOBACCO FUNDS THEY RAISED.

SOMETIMES THE WAY PEOPLE PROFIT FROM ECONOMIC CONFERENCE.

IN THIS CASE A LOT OF THE ANTIVAX, ESPECIALLY THE ANTICOVID VACCINE PROPAGANDA, IT'S COMING OUT OF FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SEE CRAFT.

THIS WAS ALL IN THE MAJOR MEDIA OR ABOUT THE AUTHOR DUPER STORMY.

WHAT SEEMS TO HAVE HAPPENED IS PUTIN HAPPENED A YEAR AND A HALF AGO CALLED PUTIN'S LONG WAR AGAINST AMERICAN SCIENCE.

HE'S INTERESTED IN HAVING AMERICANS AT EACH OTHER'S TRIEDOFF.

THEY DISCUSS WHERE THERE SHOULDN'T BE.

THE QUESTION THROUGHOUT IS PRECISELY THE RIGHT ONE, NOT QUITE A BELIEVEABLE SUCH THINGS.

BEST FOOD.

> NOT WHY SHE BELIEVES IT.

SHE BELIEVES IT BECAUSE SOMEBODY TOLD HER.

SHE'S RAISING QUESTIONS THAT EVERYBODY RAISES.

WE ALL TRUST THE PEOPLE AROUND US.

THE REAL QUESTION IS WHO WANTS HER TO BELIEVE THAT.

THE PERSON IS 54 POINTS AND SO THE ORIGINAL POINT FOUND AND THE OUTRIGHT LIE ABOUT COVID VACCINE ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

IT WAS NOT JUST THE MAJORITY, WHICH IS QUITE A BIT.

PEOPLE WHO ARE AMPLIFYING DISINFORMATION, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT.

ONCE YOU'VE FIGURED OUT HOW SOCIAL MEDIA WORKS.

THEY CAN AMPLIFY THEIR SIEGS WHEN YOU REALIZE IT'S SO FEW PEOPLE TO HAVE SUCH A BIG MEGAPHONE.

ANOTHER STATISTIC, REPORTED IN THE WASHINGTON POST.

50% OF THE ANTI-VAX PROPAGANDA WAS DUE TO 110 FILM PEOPLE.

THAT'S NOT THAT MANY PEOPLE.

YOU'RE GOING TO CONVINCE THOSE AHEAD OF US 11 OR 12.

IF YOU FOUND A WAY TO KEEP THEM FROM AMPLIFYING IT.

IT MATE BE THE WADE.

IT DEPENDS.

IN SOME CASES THEY WANT MORE MONEY.

IN SOME KISSES THEY HAVE DIFFERENT MOTIVATIONS.

QUITE A BIT OF IT NOW AS BASED ON IDEOLOGICAL OR POLAR RICHARDSON.

PEOPLE GET THE SCRIPT, THIS IS WHAT FEES ON OUR TEAM BELIEVE SO THEY GO AHEAD AND READ IT.

WHAT IS TO BE DONE HERE.

YEAH.

AND IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE?

THERE ARE THREE PROBLEM.

THE CREATION OF DISINFORMATION.

THE ACT DO YOU KNOW SATURDAY AND SUNDAY.

IT'S WHEN WE GO OUT WITH THE IDEA THAT-WITH SOMETHING CALLED THE INFORMATION DEFICIT MODEL.

ALL WE NEED TO DO IS GIVE THEM THE MAX.

THE ONE THAT I ADVOCATE IN MY TRUST, IT'S TO BUILD TRUST.

PEOPLE CHANGE THEIR MIND ABOUT COVID AND ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.

THEY ALL HAPPENED BECAUSE THAT FIRST ONE WAS APPROACHED LIKE SOMEBODY THAT THEY BASTED.

SOMEBODY THAT ENGAGE FOR THEM.

YOU SHOULDN'T YOEL AT THEM OR AM I SCLAMP.

THE BEST WAY TO APPROACH IT IS WITH RESPECT.

LISTENING TO WHAT THE PERSON'S CONCERNS ARE.

A LONG PROCESS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE SICK OF THESE PEOPLE.

THEY'RE PEOPLE WHO ARE ENDANGERING THE HELP OF NEIGHBORS, FRIENDS, FELLOW COUNTRY MEN.

IT SOUNDS LIKE A LONG, STICKY IF YOU YELL AT IT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO CONVERT IT.

THE LAST TIME I CHECKED THIS IS GETTING WORSE AND WORSE.

OVER MY HOLDER I SEE WE'VE GOT NOW QUANOIR THAT THE 2020 ELECTION WAS STOLE REN.

THIS IS ALL DENIAL OF BREATHING.

I THINK THAT WE NEED TO FIGURE GOTTEN OUT INTO THE COMMUNITY.

YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE SELF-IDENTIFYING AS I THINK THE ONLY THING THAT'S GOING TO GET THROUGH WITH THEM IS JUST EM EMPATHY.

WE'RE DENIERS TOO.

STUDY IN MAJOR THOMAS PRO VOORDED EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT THIS WAS POSSIBLE, THAT THIS ACTUALLY WORKED.

I DIDN'T WANT TO BOTHER THEY'RE AT WITH BEING IN EVERY 1207.

YOU DO HAVE TO TALK TO YOUR UNCLE OR PULL YOUR ASSESS ASIDE.

SOMEBODY THAT YOU CAN HAVE ONE CONVERSATION WITH.

LET'S START HAVE A VISH TWO WOUS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKS WITH US.

THANK YOU FORVILLE ME BACK.

I ENJOYED IT.

WE HAVE CHANGE MINDS ON SUCH IMPORTANT THINGS AND FINALLY TONIGHT FAREWELL AND A PASSION BLADE JOURNALIST.

THE NEXT BIG THING, WAS THE DESIGN, FOUR DECIDER.

GUESS YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN RISING TO EDITOR AND CHIEF ON VOGUE INTERNATIONAL.

HE MET THE CREATETIVE GENIUS EARLER IN HIS ELEVATOR.

FORD ONCE SAID BY THE TIME I KNEW I HAD TO BE THERE.

THEY WERE PARTNERS FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS.

THEY WERE HUSBAND AND HUPS AND THEY WERE FATHERS OF 9-YEAR-OLD JACK.

RICHARD DIED OF NATURAL COURSES.

HIS KIND, GENTLE, YET BOLD SPIRIT WILL BE MISSED BY ALL WHO KNEW HIM.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM AND YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND OUR SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR & COMPANY NEXT.

REMEMBER TO JOIN ME AT 7 P.M.