September 24, 2021

♪♪♪

> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

PROTESTERS ON THE STREETS OF GERMANY DEMANDING CLIMATE ACTION AND SCIENTISTS KATHARINE HAYHOE SEES HOPE EMERGING FROM THIS CATASTROPHE.

THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT REQUIRES A BETTER MIGRATION POLICY.

WITH CLIMATE, CRIME AND CORRUPTION DRIVING MIGRATION ACROSS THE AMERICAS, THE OUTGOING COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT JOINS US.

AND THE STRONGEST EUROPEAN LEADER.

WHAT NEXT AT THE END OF THE MERKEL ERA?

I ASK JOURNALIST KATRIN BENNHOLD.

> WE ARE NOT PERFECT AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO CHIP AWAY AT IT.

HOLDING YOUTUBE FOR A TORRENT OF INFORMATION.

HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS WITH CHIEF PRODUCTS OFFICER NEAL MOHAN.

> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.

THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

CUE AND PATRICIA EWAN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

CLIMATE ACTIVISTS AROUND THE WORLD ARE TAKING TO THE STREETS TODAY TO DEMAND URGENT ACTION.

IT IS THE LARGEST PROTEST SINCE THE COVID-19 LOCKDOWN BEGAN AND THEY PLAN TO KEEP UP THIS PRESSURE UNTIL THE FALL'S SUMMIT IN GLASGOW.

IN GERMANY AHEAD OF THIS WEEKEND'S ELECTIONS GRETA THUNBERG JOINED THE CHORUS OF THE URGENT.

WHAT LEADERS ARE TALKING ABOUT BUILDING BACK BETTER, PROMISING GREEN INVESTMENTS AND SETTING VAGUE AND DISTANT CLIMATE TARGETS IN ORDER TO SAY THAT THEY ARE TAKING CLIMATE ACTION.

HOWEVER, THE FACT THAT WE ARE IN A CRISIS THAT WE CANNOT BUILD, BUY OR INVEST OUR WAY OUT OF SEEMS TO CREATE SOME KIND OF COLLECTIVE MENTAL SHORT CIRCUIT AMONG THE PEOPLE IN POWER.

FOR THE PEOPLE IN POWER IN NEW YORK ALL THIS WEEK CLIMATE HAS BEEN THE MAJOR FOCUS.

BUT THE U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL ADMITS THAT THE WORLD IS LIGHT YEARS AWAY FROM REACHING OUR TARGETS WHILE THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER CALLED FOR WORLD LEADERS TO FINALLY TAKE RESPONSIBILITIES.

IT'S TIME FOR HUMANITY TO GROW UP.

IT'S TIME TO LISTEN TO THE WARNINGS OF THE SCIENTISTS.

IF YOU LOOK AT COVID, IF YOU WANT TO SEE AN EXAMPLE OF THE GLOOMY SCIENTISTS BEING PROVED RIGHT, IT'S TIME TO GROW UP AND UNDERSTAND WHO WE ARE AND WHAT WE'RE DOING.

NOW, KATHARINE HAYHOE IS REFRESHINGLY UNGLOOMMY.

SHE IS A CLIMATE SCIENTIST AND WRITES WHAT SHE HAS LEARNED THROUGH THOUSANDS OF CONVERSATIONS IN HER NEW BOOK 'SAVING US.'

SHE IS JOINING ME FROM LUBBOCK, TEXAS.

KATHARINE HAYHOE, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

SO YOU SAW THAT THIS WEEK AT THE U.N. EVERYONE WAS TALKING ABOUT CLIMATE.

WE HAVE HAD PLEDGES FROM THE CHINESE PREMIER THAT HE WILL NOT HAVE ANY MORE COAL-FIRED PLANTS BUILT OUTSIDE.

YOU SAW THAT BIDEN PROMISED EXTRA HELP ON TACKLING THE GLOBAL CRISIS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WAS THIS A REAL OPPORTUNITY?

IT WAS.

THE PARIS AGREEMENT IS LIKE A POTLUCK DINNER.

EACH COUNTRY BRINGS SOMETHING DIFFERENT, A DIFFERENT DISH TO THE TABLE.

UP UNTIL NOW IT IS VERY CLEAR WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH FOOD ON THE TABLE.

WE CANNOT HOLD WARMING TO 2.7 DEGREES AND ONLY THEN A TWO-THIRDS CHANCE.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT TO THE TABLE.

OF COURSE, WITH BORIS JOHNSON, THE U.K. IS NOW LEADING THE WAY AMONG HIGH-INCOME COUNTRIES.

SO LET ME ASK BUT THAT BECAUSE, YES, THEY TALK THE TALK AND FOR A PERIOD OF TIME IT WAS CONSIDERED THE U.K. HAD DONE CONSIDERABLE ADVANCES BUT THERE ARE COMPLAINTS THAT IT'S STILL LAGGING WAY BEHIND SCHEDULE FOR CUTTING CARBON EMISSIONS.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO THE GREEN ALLIANCE.

AND THE PRIME MINISTER IS ALSO SUPPORTING DRILLING IN THE NORTH SEA AND THERE ARE PLANS FOR A NEW COAL MINE STILL IN A PLACE CALLED CAMBRIA HERE.

XI JINPING PROMISED NOT TO BUILD COAL-FIRED PLANTS BUT HAS NOT MADE ANY SUCH PROMISE INSIDE.

AND THERE IS, YOU KNOW, 58% OF THAT COUNTRY'S ENERGY DEMAND IS AT LEAST IN 2020 BASED ON COAL.

SO WHERE DO YOU SEE THE HOPE BETWEEN RHETORIC, WORDS AND ACTION?

WELL, YOU COULD SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT THE UNITED STATES, TOO.

IN TERMS OF ALLOWING NEW OIL AND GAS LEASES ON ONE HAND WITH AN AGGRESSIVE CLIMATE PLAN ON THE OTHER.

IT JUST DOESN'T ALL ADD UP.

AND YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT.

PEOPLE ARE HANGING ON TO THE STATUS QUO, TRYING TO ADAPT OUR SYSTEMS OUT OF IT WHEN WE REALLY ARE IN A CRISIS AS THE IPCC SAID, IT'S CODE RED.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE PLANET ITSELF.

THE PLANET WILL BE ORBITING THE SUN LONG AFTER WE ARE GONE.

IT TRULY IS ABOUT SAVING US.

THIS IS WHY WE NEED ALL HANDS ONBOARD AND WE NEED THE PROM SITS TO BE FULFILLED.

THE PRIME MINISTER SAID GROW UP.

THIS IS MADE BY US.

WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN FIX IT.

AERND, HERE WE ARE IN THE U.K.

WHERE, AS YOU KNOW, THERE IS A MASSIVE GAS CRISIS NOW WITH SUPPLIES, TRUCKING, THE REST OF IT.

I WONDER WHETHER THAT IS AN OPPORTUNITY MAYBE TO CONCENTRATE ON THE FACT OF HOW DEPENDENT OUR WORLD IS ON FOSSIL FUELS.

LET ME READ WHAT THE 'FINANCIAL TIMES' SAID.

MAKING PROGRESS ON CLIMATE POLICY WITHOUT ALIENATING CITIZENS WORRIED ABOUT HOUSEHOLD BUDGETS JUST GOT MORE DIFFICULT.

FOR RESPONSIBLE LEADERS, HOWEVER, THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE.

SO DO YOU THINK THIS U.K. CRISIS COULD BE A TARGET OF OPPORTUNITY OR WILL FRIGHTEN POLITICIANS AND PEOPLE AWAY FROM MAKING THE HARD DECISIONS ON FOSSIL FUEL?

IT DEFINITELY COULD BE EITHER.

BUT IT SHOULD BE AN OPPORTUNITY.

IMAGINE IF THE OIL CRISIS IN THE '70s HAD PRECIPITATED CLIMATE ACTION AT THE SCALE WE SEE TODAY.

WE WOULD BE LIVING IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORLD.

AS HUMANS WE WANT TO GO BACK TO WHAT WE HAD BEFORE, BUT THE PLANET WE WERE BORN ON NO LONGER EXISTS.

INSTEAD IT IS LITERALLY UP TO US, IT IS IN OUR HANDS TO BUILD A BETTER PLANET FOR ALL OF US.

AND NOW IS THE TIME WHEN, AS YOU SAID, WE HAVE TO GROW UP AND DO IT.

SO, KATHARINE, I HEAR YOU.

I KNOW THAT YOU ARE SAYING WE HAVE TO DO IT AND NOW IS THE TIME.

THE QUESTION IS HOW?

HOW MANY YEARS HAVE WE BEEN SPEAKING ABOUT THIS, HOW MUCH SCIENCE TO WE KNOW, HOW MUCH OF EVERYTHING DO WE KNOW THAT IT'S IN OUR HANDS AND YET IT IS STILL SO SLOW.

SO I WANT TO READ A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES HAVE RESEARCHED AND IT'S PART OF WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT, THE CONVERSATION IN YOUR BOOK.

YOU KNOW, YOU SAY THAT IN THE UNITED STATES, FOR INSTANCE, CLIMATE HAS BECOME THE MOST POLITICIZED ISSUE IN THE UNITED STATES AHEAD OF MONEY, RELIGION AND POLITICS.

THAT SEEMS EXTRAORDINARY.

IT SEEMS THAT WAY FOR CERTAIN BECAUSE A THERMOMETER IS NOT LIBERAL, CONSERVATIVE, DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN.

AND A HURRICANE DOESN'T STOP TO KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR AND ASK WHO YOU VOTED FOR IN THE LAST NATIONAL ELECTION BEFORE IT DESTROYS YOUR HOME.

YET SINCE THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION CLIMATE CHANGE HAS BEEN AT THE TOP OF THE LIST OF MOST POLARIZED ISSUES IN THE COUNTRY AND THAT IS HOLDING US BACK FROM ACTION.

WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT WHAT WE HAVE IN COMMON AND WHAT WE HAVE AT RISK IS FAR MORE THAN THE POLITICAL IDEOLOGY THAT DIVIDES US.

SO, IF WASN'T ALWAYS THIS WAY.

CERTAINLY NOT IN THE '70s.

CERTAINLY NOT IN THE '90s WHERE A GALLUP POLL SAYS AN EQUAL NUMBER OF DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS AGREED THIS WAS A MAJOR THREAT.

I AM WONDERING HOW YOU THINK ONE CAN GET BACK TO THAT AT LEAST TO THAT BASELINE?

THAT'S EXACTLY IT.

BACK IN THE EARLY OR LATE 1990s YOU WOULD ASK A DEMOCRAT AND A REPUBLICAN ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE AND THEY WOULD GIVE YOU THE SAME ANSWER.

SO WHAT HAPPENED?

IT WAS DELIBERATELY POLITICALLY POLARIZED.

BY WHO?

THOSE WHO HAVE THE MOST TO LOSE FROM THE WORLD WEANING ITSELF OFF FOSSIL FUELS.

SO WHAT CAN WE DO?

IF WE WERE NOT SOMEBODY BIG AND FAMOUS, IN THE CEO OF A CORPORATION OR PRIME MINISTER OR THE PRESIDENT OF A COUNTRY, WHAT CAN WE DO?

THAT'S THE QUESTION I HAVE BEEN PONDERING FOR SO LONG AND SO I FINALLY WROTE A BOOK ABOUT IT CALLED 'SAVING US.'

I REALIZED THAT EACH OF US HAS SOMETHING.

OF COURSE, WE CAN MAKE PERSONAL CHOICES IN OUR LIVES AND WE ALL DO THAT.

BUT THE BIGGEST TOOL WE HAVE IS OUR VOICE TO ADVOCATE FOR CHANGE, TO ELEVATE THE RISKS, TO CALL FOR ACTION AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT OUR CHILDREN ARE DOING TODAY.

IF THEY CAN DO IT, WHY CAN'T ALL OF US AT EVERY TABLE THAT WE SIT AT?

IT MIGHT NOT BE THE PUBLIC SCARE.

IT MIGHT BE WHERE WE WORK.

IT MIGHT BE THE CITY OR TOWN WHERE WE LIVE.

IT MIGHT BE THE ORGANIZATION WE ARE INVOLVED IN.

WE HAVE A VOICE AND WE HAVE INFLUENCE EACH OF US IN OUR UNIQUE SPHERES AND WHEREVER WE GO WE NEED TO BE CONNECTING THE DOTS BETWEEN HOW CLIMATE CHANGE CONNECTS WHAT WE CARE ABOUT AND WHAT WE AS A GROUP, AS AN ORGANIZATION, CAN BE DOING TO HELP CONTRIBUTE TO THE SOLUTION BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT COUNTRIES.

IT'S ABOUT CITIES, STATES, PROVINCES, COUNTIES, BUSINESSES, ORGANIZATIONS, TRIBAL NATIONS, UNIVERSITIES, CHURCHES, ALL OF US HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY AGAIN IN SAVING US.

AND YOU HAVE SORT OF CATEGORIZED THE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF ENGAGEMENT ON THIS.

I FIND IT REALLY INTERESTING.

THIS IS A STUDY THAT YOU HAVE PUT IN YOUR BOOK.

IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMATE, YOU HAVE ALARMED AND CONCERNED, KAURKS, DISENGAGED, DOUBT.

. YOU SAID ALARM AND CONCERNED HAVE RISEN FROM 2008 TO 2020.

CAUTIOUS HAS REMAINED THE SAME ON THIS ISSUE AT ABOUT 20%. DISENGAGED HAVE DECLINED FROM ABOUT 12% BACK IN '08 TO 7% NOW.

SO ABOUT HALF.

DOUBTFUL AND DISMISSIVE HAVE REMAINED THE SAME AT ABOUT 11% AND 7%. SO WHAT IS THE -- WHAT THERE GIVES YOU HOPE THAT -- WHICH BIT THERE IS GOOD TO START, YOU KNOW, THE CONVERSATION?

WELL, WE OFTEN THINK THAT THE LOUDEST VOICES WE HEAR REJECTING THE SCIENCE ARE THE BIGGEST PROBLEM, BUT THOSE DISMISSIVES ARE ONLY 7%. THEY DO GET A LOT OF TRACTION ON SOCIAL MEDIA, BUT 93% OF US ARE NOT DISMISSIVE.

93% OF US, MOST OF US ARE ALREADY WORRIED.

WHEN YOU PUT TOGETHER ALARMED, CONCERNED AND CAUTIOUS IN THE UNITED STATES, THAT'S THREE-QUARTERS OF THE POPULATION.

WHAT'S THE BIGGEST PROBLEM?

WE UNDERSTAND IT'S ABOUT THE FUTURE OF OUR CIVILIZATION AS WE KNOW T WE UNDERSTAND IT'S ABOUT ANTARCTICA AND THE POLAR BEARS.

WE HAVEN'T CONNECTED THE DOTS TO HOW IT MATTERS TO ME AS A MOM, AS CITIZEN, AS A NEIGHBOR, AS A PERSON WHO WORKS IN THE INDUSTRY.

AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.

AND IF WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO THE CIVILIZATION AS WE KNOW IT, METAPHORICALLY, OUR HUMAN DEFENSE SYSTEM IS JUST TO PULL THE COVERS OVER OUR HEADS.

WE NEED TO BE EMPOWERED.

WE NEED TO REALIZE WE HAVE AGENCY AND THAT AGENCY BEGINS BY USING OUR VOICES.

HOW DO YOU SUGGEST THAT HAPPENS?

BECAUSE WE ARE GOING THROUGH A VERY SIMILAR THING WITH THE VACCINE CRISIS AND HESITANCE AND PA CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND DIFFERENT REASONS SIMILAR TO WHAT WE READ OUT THAT VACCINES ARE HAVING SOME LAG IN TAKEUP.

MANY PEOPLE SAY IT'S ABOUT TRYING TO HAVE RESPONSIBLE CONVERSATIONS, MAYBE SMALLER CONVERSATIONS, CERTAINLY NOT MOCKING PEOPLE.

HOW DO YOU SUGGEST THAT THE CLIMATE CONVERSATIONS TAKE PLACE?

WELL, THE PARALLELS BETWEEN PEOPLE'S RESPONSE TO CORONAVIRUS AND CLIMATE CHANGE ARE UNMISTAKABLE.

THAT'S HOW I BEGIN THE BOOK BY COMPARING THE TWO AND SAYING I WAS SAD, BUT I WAS NOT SURPRISED WHEN COVID REACTIONS BECAME POLITICIZED NOT ONLY IN THE U.S.

AND THE U.K. AND WHERE I'M FROM IN CANADA, TOO.

HOW DO WE BEGIN THESE CONVERSATIONS?

FROM THE HEART.

NOT THE HEAD.

WITH SOMETHING THAT WE AGREE ON RATHER THAN SOMETHING WE DISAGREE ON.

IF WE CAN FIGURE OUT SOMETHING WE AGREE ON AND BEGIN THAT CONVERSATION WITH A SENSE OF MUTUAL RESPECT, FACT THAT I CARE ABOUT MY CHILD AND YOU DO, TOO, I CARE ABOUT WHERE WE WORK OR WHERE WE LIVE AND YOU DO, TOO, I AM VERY PASSIONATE ABOUT A CERTAIN ACTIVITY, SOMETIMES EVEN SPORTS OR KNITTING AND YOU ARE, TOO, ALL OF THESE CAN SERVE ASING CONNECTORS TO BEGIN THE CONVERSATION ON THE FOOTING OF MUTUAL SHARED VALUES AND RESPECT TOGETHER AND THEN CONNECT THE DOTS TO HOW CLIMATE CHANGE IS AFFECTING WHAT WE ALREADY CARE ABOUT BECAUSE WE ARE A GOOD PARENT OR A SHREWD BUSINESS PERSON OR A CONCERNED CITIZEN.

AND ALWAYS WHAT IS ALREADY HAPPENING AND WHAT CAN BE DONE AT THE LEVEL OF OUR SPHERES OF INFLUENCE.

SO I WANT TO READ WHAT PEOPLE THINK.

THERE IS A -- THE LATEST SURVEY SHOWS THAT 16 TO 25-YEAR-OLDS, YOU KNOW, EXIST IN SOME STATE OF FEAR AND DESPAIR.

NEARLY 60% OF YOUNG PEOPLE ARE VERY WORRIED.

75% OF THEM SAY THEY THOUGHT THE FUTURE WAS FRIGHTENING.

56% THINK HUMANITY DOOMED.

IF THEY FEEL THAT WAY AND IF YOU SEE SOME KIND OF HOPE IN A NEW KIND OF CONVERSATION DO YOU THINK THEY CAN BECOME REAL POLITICAL, I DON'T KNOW, PRESSURE POINTS?

BECAUSE WE DO KIND OF KEEP GOING THROUGH THIS AND HAVING THESE CIRCULAR CONVERSATIONS FOR SUCH A LONG TIME.

OBVIOUSLY, IN GERMANY THIS WEEKEND THERE IS GOING TO BE AN IMPORTANT ELECTION WHERE CLIMATE IS VERY, VERY HIGH, IF NOT THE HIGHEST ON THE AGENDA.

HOW LONG DO WE HAVE FOR THIS TO ALL WORK OUT?

WE SCIENTISTS HAVE BEEN DOING OUR BEST TO COMMUNICATE THE RISKS OF CLIMATE CHANGE FOR DECADES.

1965 SCIENTISTS WARNED A U.S.

PRESIDENT, LYNDON B. JOHNSON.

YOU KNOW WHO MOVED THE NEEDLE THE MOST?

YOUNG PEOPLE.

YOUNG PEOPLE USING THEIR VOICES HAVE ABSOLUTELY EXERTED POLITICAL PRESSURE.

THEY HAVE DONE IT AT THE LOCAL SCALE.

THEY HAVE DONE IT AT THE NATIONAL SCALE.

THEY ARE 100% DOING IT AT THE INTERNATIONAL SCALE.

THE ANECDOTE TO ANXIETY, QUOTING JOAN BAEZ, IS ACTION.

THE ANECDOTE TO DESPAIR IS ACTION.

AND AS GRETA THUNBERG SAYS, DON'T LOOK FOR HOPE.

ACT.

AND WHEN YOU ACT, HOPE IS EVERYWHERE.

CRISTIANA FIGUREAREZ OF ALL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD HAS THE GREATEST REASON TO BE FRUSTRATED WITH ALL OF THE COUNTRIES CONSTANTLY NEVER LIVING UP TO PROMISES.

SHE WROTE THE MOST HOPEFUL BOOK CALLED THE FUTURE WE CHOOSE.

IMAGINE WHAT A 2030 WORLD WOULD LOOK LIKE, HOW CLEAN THE AIR WOULD BE, HOW AFFORDABLE THE ELECTRICITY, HOW WALKABLE OUR CITIES.

SHE CONCLUDED, AS IF WE WERE IN LESSON WAS WE WERE ONLY EVER AS DOOMED AS WE BELIEVED OURSELVES TO BE.

WHAT GETS US OVER THAT?

ACTION.

HOW CAN WE ACT?

WE ALL HAVE A VOICE.

SO WE ALL USE IT.

KATHARINE HAYHOE, AUTHOR OF 'SAVING US,' THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

> AS THE CLIMATE, COVID AND MIGRATION CRISES ALL HIT THE AMERICAS, COLOMBIA'S OUTGOING PRESIDENT FINDS HIMSELF DEFENDING HIS LEGACY.

HAVING CAMPAIGNED ON ECONOMIC GROWTH, COVID THEN HIT THE COLOMBIAN ECONOMY AND EMPLOYMENT HARD AND MANY CITIZENS ARE DISSATISFIED WITH THE SLOW IMPLEMENTATION OF A PEACE DEAL WITH THE RADICAL FAR GUERRILLAS.

AS MORE MIGRANTS FROM HAITI AND VENEZUELA FLOCK TO COLOMBIA, HE PUSHED BACK EARLIER THIS WEEK SAYING HIS COUNTRY IS SETTING A WORLD STANDARD FOR MORE INTELLIGENT WAYS TO MANAGE MIGRATION AND ALSO TRYING TO MAKE MORE EQUAL SOCIETY AT HOME.

PRESIDENT YVONNE DUKE A, WELCOME BACK.

THANK YOU.

IT'S A GREAT HONOR.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT A REAL SITUATION, THE HAITIANS TRYING TO GET ACROSS THE SOUTHERN BORDER INTO THE UNITED STATES.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT TENS OF THOUSANDS, PERHAPS 30,000 HAITIANS ARE IN YOUR COUNTRY TRYING TO DO THE VERY SAME.

BIDEN WANTS TO DETER THEM.

IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE WORKING.

WELL, WHAT IS MORE COMPLICATED IS THAT PEOPLE ARE LEAVING HAITI FOR MULTIPLE REASONS.

AS YOU KNOW, THE BAD SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC EFFECTS DERIVED FROM THE PANDEMIC.

THAT'S ISSUE NUMBER ONE.

THE NATIONAL DISASTER DERIVED FROM THE EARTHQUAKE THAT HIT THEM BACK AGAIN AND SOMETHING THAT IS ALSO MORE COMPLICATED AND IS THE INSTABILITY, THE POLITICAL AND INSTITUTIONAL INSTABILITY.

I THINK THIS ISSUE REQUIRES TO HAVE A BETTER MIGRATION COORDINATION POLICY AMONG THE COUNTRIES AND ALSO TO LIMIT THE ILLEGAL TRADE OF MIGRATION THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN MANY PLACES AND ESPECIALLY IN OUR COUNTRY.

MEANTIME, WHAT LOOKED LIKE MANIFEST CRUELTY BY THE U.S.

BORDER GUARDS ON THEIR HORSES AS PRESIDENT OF A LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRY DEALING WITH SO MANY MIGRANTS AND REFUGEES RIGHT NOW, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT?

WELL, KNOW THE DECISION THAT WE MADE IN COLOMBIA, WE HAVE 1.8 MIDDLE SCHOOL VENEZUELAN MIGRANTS IN OUR COUNTRY.

THEY WERE INVISIBLE.

PEOPLE WERE COMING FROM THE BORDER WITH FROZEN BONES, LACKING THE ACCESS OF TO SERVICES, LACKING THE ACCESS TO VACCINATION AND WE DECIDED TO DO SOMETHING BOLD WITHOUT BEING A RICH COUNTRY, THAT IS TO GRAB THE TEMPORARY PROTECTION STATUS TO THAT 1.8 MILLION PEOPLE.

WE HAVE 800,000 TO BE GIVEN IN THE FIRST SEMESTER OF 2022 SO WE CAN DO SOMETHING FRATERNAL WITH TECHNOLOGY, WITH TRANSPARENCY.

IN ORDER TO EVALUATE AND UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN PEOPLE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITIES ONCE THEY LOCATE, THEY CAN CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT.

OUR APPROACH HAS BEEN A HOLISTIC APPROACH AND I THINK IT HAS MADE THE CONTRAST OF WHAT CAN BE DONE VIS-A-VIS THE BAD EXAMPLES OF XENOPHOBIA IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD.

COLOMBIA WANTS TO SET AN EXAMPLE AND SHOW THE WORLD WE CAN DO SOMETHING MUCH BETTER IN AN INTELLIGENT WAY TO MANAGE MIGRATION.

MR. PRESIDENT, YOU MUST BE WORRIED LIKE MANY WORLD LEADERS THAT THE INCREASING CATASTROPHE THAT IS CLIMATE CHANGE WILL LEAD TO MANY, MANY THINGS INCLUDING MASS MIGRATION.

THERE IS A BIG PROBLEM WITH COLOMBIA.

YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT THE NEED TO PROTECT THE CLIMATE, BUT THIS MONTH THE ADVOCACY GROUP GLOBAL WITNESS NAMED YOUR COUNTRY THE WORLD'S MOST DEADLY PLACE FOR ENVIRONMENTALISTS LAST YEAR IN 2020.

65 PEOPLE WERE KILLED LAST YEAR, SECOND STRAIGHT YEAR THAT YOUR COUNTRY TOPPED THIS RATHER DUBIOUS LIST.

AND PEOPLE ARE WORRIED THE GLOBAL WITNESS PEOPLE, THAT WHATEVER YOU ARE DOING ABOU IF, IF YOU ARE DOING ANYTHING, IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT AND DO YOU ACCEPT BEING THE WORST AND MOST DANGEROUS PLACE FOR THESE ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVISTS?

LET ME TRY TO PUT IT IN TWO CONTEXT.

WHAT COLOMBIA IS DOING TO FACE CLIMATE CHANGE BECAUSE WE ONLY REPRESENT 0.6% OF THE CO2 EMISSIONS WORLDWIDE.

WE ARE REDUCING BY 51% OUR CO2 EMISSIONS TO 2030 AND BECOMING A CARBON-NEUTRAL COUNTRY BY 2050.

WE ARE LEADING THE ENERGY TRANSITION IN LATIN AMERICA.

WE ARE EXPANDING THE PROTECTED AREAS WITH THE IDEA OF HAVING THE 30 BY 30 INITIATIVE, TO HAVE 30% OF OUR PROTECTED LAND.

SO ALL THIS IS HAPPENING.

YOU MENTIONED THE THING ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL LEADERS.

WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR THAT NARCO TRAFFICKING AND TERRORISM ARE THE RESPONSIBLES OF THIS.

WHY?

BECAUSE ENVIRONMENTAL LEADERS AND SOCIAL LEADERS ARE ALSO PERSUADING COMMUNITIES NOT TO ENGAGE IN THOSE TYPES OF ACTIVITIES.

JUST TO SAY THAT ONE HECTOR OF COCOA IN COLOMBIA DESTROYS TWO HECTARE OF TROPICAL JUNGLE.

OUR DUTY IS TO EMBRACE THIS BUT AT THE SAME TIME TO DISMANTLING THE TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE CRIMES.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO DISMANTLE, DENOUNCE AND ALSO TO INCREASE THE PROTECTIONS ON SOCIAL LEADERS AND ENVIRONMENTAL LEADERS IN COLOMBIA.

YOUR PREDECESSOR AS WE KNOW HAD THE DEAL THE PEACE DEAL BETWEEN THE GUERRILLAS AND THE GOVERNMENT.

WHEN YOU RAN IN 2018 YOU DIDN'T LIKE IT BUT ONCE YOU WERE ELECTED AND IN OFFICE YOU SAID YOU WOULD WORK TO MAKE IT WORK.

THERE IS A LOT OF COLOMBIANS WHO PROFESS TO BE VERY DISAPPOINTED THAT THEY DON'T THINK IT WORKED WELL ENOUGH, IT HASN'T DELIVERED THE PROMISES THAT YOU AND YOUR PREDECESSOR SAID IT WOULD.

DO YOU THINK IT'S GONE TOO SLOW?

DO YOU THINK IT WILL SURVIVE?

WELL, CHRISTIANE, FIRST OF ALL, THAT PROCESS WAS MADE TO BE IMPLEMENTED IN 15 YEARS.

THE COLOMBIAN OFFICE RELEASED A REPORT A FEW DAYS AGO AND BASICALLY WHAT THEY SAID IS THAT IN THE THREE YEARS OF MY ADMINISTRATION MORE HAS BEEN DONE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION SIDE THAN IN THE FIRST 20 MONTHS OF THE IMPLEMENTATION THAT TOOK PLACE IN MY PREDECESSOR'S TERM.

SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE FACTS OF WHAT WE HAVE DONE, WE, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE GRANTING 50,000 LAND TITLES BY THE END OF THIS YEAR IN FLEE YEARS AND A HALF, WHICH IS MUCH MORE THAN WHAT WAS DONE IN THE PREVIOUS EIGHT YEARS.

THE REGIONAL FOCUS DEVELOPMENT PLAN, THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION ONLY COORDINATED TWO.

WE HAVE COORDINATED 14 TO REACH TO 16 THAT ARE ABLE TO CONNECT 170 MUNICIPALITIES THAT HAVE BEEN HISTORICALLY AFFECTED BY VIOLENCE MOVING NOT ONLY INVESTMENTS BUT ALSO PUTTING TO THE MORE THAN 1,300 PROJECTS IN OUR ADMINISTRATION.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE IS STILL CHALLENGES BECAUSE THIS HAS TO BE IMPLEMENTED WITHIN 15 YEARS.

BUT I THINK WHAT IS STARTED BEING A FRAGILE PROCESS WHEN I ASSUMED OFFICE, TODAY IS A CONSOLIDATED STATE POLICY AND I THINK WE'RE SETTING THE GROUND NOT ONLY TO CONTINUE THE IMPLEMENTATION IN A FASTER WAY, BUT ALSO PROVIDING MORE RESOURCES.

AND IF I MAY SAY THIS.

WHEN I TOOK OFFICE, THE ANNUAL BUDGET FOR THE IMPLEMENTATION WAS $1.5 BILLION.

THIS YEAR IT'S GOING TO BE MORE THAN $3 BILLION.

SO WE HAVE DUPLICATED THE RESOURCE IT IS THAT ARE AIMED FOR IMPLEMENTATION.

I THINK WE SHOULD LOOK AT THIS BEYOND POLITICS BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE GETTING INTO THE ELECTORAL SEASON AND MANY PEOPLE WANT TO SAY WE HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE FACTS AND WHAT HAS COME OUT FROM INDEPENDENT REPORTS WE SEE THAT THERE IS A POSITIVE ROAD TO ACCOMPLISH THE OBJECTIVES THAT WE HAVE SET AS A NATION.

GIVEN THE ELECTIONS, GIVEN THAT YOU CAN'T RUN AGAIN, WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE YOUR LEGACY TO BE AFTER THIS TERM IN OFFICE AS PRESIDENT OF COLOMBIA?

WELL, AS I HAVE SAID MANY TIMES, MY OBJECTIVE IS TO LEAVE A LEGACY OF SLOWSING SOCIAL GAPS.

I AM HAPPY TO PUSH AND PASS THE REFORM.

THE MOST IMPORTANT SOCIAL REFORM COLOMBIA IS GRANTING FREE PUBLIC UNIVERSITY EDUCATION TO THE MIDDLE CLASS AND POOREST OF THE POOR.

I AM HAPPY TO MAKE THE BIGGEST INVESTMENT IN LOW-INCOME HOUSING IN THE COUNTRY, ROADS, CONNECTING OUR SOCIETY, AND ALSO HAVING CONNECTIVITY THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

SO MY LEGALLY IS THE GOVERNMENT OF EQUALITY OR EQUITY WHERE WE REALLY WANT TO DEMONSTRATE THAT WE HAVE MADE THE BIGGEST INVESTMENT, CLOSING THE SOCIAL GAPS, BUT DOING IT WITH PHYSICAL RESPONSIBILITY.

I AM PROUD WE PASSED THE MOST IMPORTANT FISCAL REFORM IN COLOMBIA HAVING INCOME OF MORE THAN 1.8% OF GDP.

PRESIDENT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM THE U.N.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, CHRISTIAN AN.

THE BEST TO YOU.

IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE AGAIN HERE IN YOUR SHOW.

> NOW AS PRESIDENT DUE KAY COMPLICATES THE LEGACY, IN GERMANY A VERY DIFFERENT RULE IS ABOUT TO SEND.

A&M'S NEAR 16 YEARS AS CHANCELLOR AFTER WINNING FOUR TERMS AND BECOMING THE LEADER OF THE GLOBAL DEMOCRACY CAMP, THROUGH THE PRESIDENTS OF GEORGE BUSH W BUSH, BARACK OBAMA, DONALD TRUMP, AND NOW JOE BIDEN, MERKEL HAS LED WESTERN EUROPE'S STRONGEST ECONOMY WITH A RECORD FOR COMPETENT CRISIS MANAGEMENT, TOUGH NEGOTIATING SKILLS AND A WELCOMING STANCE ON REFUGEES.

SO HOW WILL HISTORY REMEMBER HER TIME IN POWER?

AND WHO WILL GERMANS TURN TO NEXT?

HERE TO DISCUSS IS A CLOSE OBSERVER JOURNALIST KATRIN BENNHOLD FROM BERLIN.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS THERE.

YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY HER SUPERPOWER WAS?

HER SUPERPOWER?

I THINK HER SUPERPOWER IS TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER QUIETLY TO FORGE CONSENSUS AROUND A TABLE WHERE THERE IS A LOT OF DISSENT.

THIS HAS BEEN HER SUPERPOWER IN EUROPE AND THIS HAS BEEN HER SUPERPOWER IN GERMANY BECAUSE SHE HASN'T ALWAYS DONE WHAT WAS POPULAR WITHIN HER OWN CAMP, BUT SHE DID IT NEVERTHELESS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THIS WOMAN HAS A KIND OF SENSE OF MORAL CLARITY AND SHE DOES WHAT SHE THINKS IS RIGHT.

AND WOULD YOU SAY, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE TALK COMPETENT CRISIS MANAGER, AS YOU SAID, A GREAT NEGOTIATOR, SHE WON'T LEAVE A ROOM IN A CRISIS UNTIL SHE HAS BROUGHT PEOPLE TOGETHER AND CAN WALK OUT WITH A SOLUTION AND THEN OF COURSE THE INCREDIBLE EXAMPLE THAT SHE LED IN 2015 OF HUMANELY SAYING WE CAN MANAGE THIS AND 1.2 MILLION REFUGEES ENTERED GERMANY.

WHICH ONE OF THOSE DO YOU THINK WILL BE WHAT SHE IS REMEMBERED -- WHICH HAD THE MOST IMPACT ON EUROPE, ON GERMANY, AND ON HER?

THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT THE THING THAT SHE WILL BE REMEMBERED FOR MOST IS HER DECISION IN 2015 TO WELCOME THOSE REFUGEES.

I MEAN, THIS WAS THE COUNTRY WITH AN UGLY PAST.

THE COUNTRY THAT COMMITTED THE HOLOCAUST, THAT DID THE RIGHT THING, THAT WAS ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY AND WELCOMED PEOPLE IN NEED AT A TIME WHEN ALL THESE OTHER COUNTRIES, WHICH TRADITIONALLY MIGHT HAVE BEEN MORE ASSOCIATED WITH BEING WELCOMING TO OUTSIDERS BEING IMMIGRATION COUNTRIES AND, YOU KNOW, I AM TALKING ABOUT THE UNITED STATES, I'M TALKING ABOUT BRITAIN, EVEN FRANCE, WERE NOT WELCOMING.

AND SO IN THAT SENSE IT WAS KIND OF A -- A REDEMPTIVE MOMENT FOR GERMANY.

IT WAS KIND OF A MOMENT OF HEALING.

AND IT SORT OF INSTANTLY CREATED THIS AURA AROUND HER THAT WAS QUITE EMOTIONAL.

A KIND OF VERY POSITIVE EMOTIONAL NARRATIVE WHICH, YOU KNOW, I AM NOT SURE GERMANY EVER HAD BEFORE AND IT CERTAINLY TURNED A HER INTO AN ICONIC LEADER.

THIS IS HOW SHE DESCRIBED THAT MOMENT WHEN I SPOKE TO HER A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.

WE HAVE TO TELL OUR YOUNG PEOPLE WHAT HISTORY HAS BROUGHT OVER US AND OTHERS AND THESE HORRORS, WHY WE ARE FOR DEMOCRACY, WHY WE TRY TO BRING ABOUT SOLUTIONS, WHY WE ALWAYS HAVE TO PUT OURSELVES IN THE OTHER PERSON'S SHOES, WHY WE STAND UP AGAINST INTOLERANCE, WHY WE SHOW NO TOLERANCE OF VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

SO, SHE IS VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

SHE BRINGS UP, OBVIOUSLY, GERMANY'S TERRIBLE PAST, HER OWN EXPERIENCE AS PART OF A GERMANY DIVIDED NO TOTALITARIAN AND DEMOCRATIC SPHERES AND SHE REALLY SET THE STAGE.

YOU KNOW BETTER THAN I DO, THERE ARE SO MANY REFUGEES WHO CAME TO GERMANY WHO NAME THEIR KIDS ANGIE OR PLAIN MERKEL.

IT'S A THING.

THEY TAKE HER EXAMPLE VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY.

AND SO, TOO, DOES AT LEAST ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO IS TRYING TO REPLACE HER, AND THAT IS THE HEAD OF THE GREENS PARTY, WHO I TALKED TO ALSO A WHILE AGO.

LET'S SEE WHAT SHE JUST SAID.

IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT AND MANY PEOPLE CAME AND OVER THE LAST YEARS EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS A RISE OF POPULOUS PARTY WITHIN GERMANY, THE BIG MAJORITY OF GERMANS SUPPORTED THE INTEGRATIONS OF REFUGEES WITHIN GERMANY.

SO, THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

SHE IS SAYING THE MAJORITY SUPPORTED.

BUT, OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE HEARING PUSHBACK NOW.

IT'S NOT SO FRIENDLY NOW.

YOU HAVE A WHOLE NEW WAVE OF REFUGEES FROM AFGHANISTAN THAT ARE BEING KEPT BACK AND THERE WAS THIS RISE FOR THAT MOMENT AFTER 2015 OF THE FAR-RIGHT AFD PARTY.

HOW HAS THAT FALLEN OUT, AND IS IT STILL THE AFD A MAJOR POLITICAL THREAT?

DOES WELCOMING REFUGEES, WAS THAT GREAT FOR 2015, AND DOESN'T REALLY APPLY ANY MORE?

WHERE IS GERMANY ON THAT ISSUE RIGHT NOW?

I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, YOU HAVE TO SAY SHE DID THE RIGHT THING IN 2015, BUT SHE SORT OF, YOU KNOW ZRKS THE RIGHT THING FOR GERMANY.

THESE PEOPLE WERE TREATED WELL, THEY WERE INTEGRATED WELL AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE STATISTICS SIX YEARS ON YOU SEE THAT LOT OF THEM ARE IN TRAINING AND IN JOBS, MANY OF THEM SPEAK GERMAN.

THEY HAVE INTEGRATED BETTER THAN PREVIOUS WAVES OF REFUGEES.

SO SOMETHING CLEARLY IS WORKING IN GERMANY.

BUT EUROPE TODAY IS NOT A WELCOMING PLACE FOR REFUGEES.

SO IN THAT SENSE ANGELA MERKEL LOST THE ARGUMENT IN EUROPE.

WE'RE SEEING THAT AT THE EXTERNAL BORDERS WHERE EUROPEAN LAW IS BEING BROKEN BY EUROPEAN BORDER GUARDS.

THE SITUATION ISN'T SORT OF ONE-SIDED.

THE BACKLASH, POLITICAL BACKLASH YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH THAT OF COURSE BECAUSE WHAT THAT DECISION IN 2015 DID WAS TO SORT OF BRING OUT THIS DARK UNDERBELLY OF POPULISM WHICH FOR A LONG TIME WAS SORT OF HIDDEN IN GERMANY AND GERMANY SORT OF NAIVELY THOUGHT WITH THE HISTORY AND ATONEMENT FOR HISTORY, IT DIDN'T EXIST IN THE SAME WAY IT EXISTED IN NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES.

BUT THE AFD, AS YOU KNOW, ON THE BACK OF THAT MIGRANT CRISIS, USING IT TO FUEL FEARS AND REALLY CREATE A SITUATION WHERE ETHNIC HATRED SORT OF WAS BACK IN THE GAME IN TERMS OF LANGUAGE AND RHETORIC AND SO ON AND WHERE GERMANY HAS HAD SEVERAL FAR-RIGHT TERRORIST ATTACKS.

THAT PARTY BECAME THE FIRST PARTY SINCE WORLD WAR II TO ACTUALLY MAKE IT INTO THE GERMAN FEDERAL PARLIAMENT.

YOU COULD SAY IT'S FLAT LINING RIGHT NOW, BUT IT'S STILL THERE AND THERE IS NO QUESTION IT WILL BE BACK IN PARLIAMENT AFTER THE ELECTION ON SUNDAY.

IT'S SORT OF NOW PART OF THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE.

AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, IT POSTED ABOUT 10%. 90% OF GERMANS DON'T AGREE WITH IT AND ANGELA MERKEL AFTER 16 YEARS IN POWER WALKS OUT OF OFFICE THE MOST POPULAR POLITICIAN IN THE COUNTRY HAVING MADE THOSE VERY DIFFICULT MORAL DECISIONS, AND IN SOME WAYS THE SORT OF LESSON IS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A MARTYR TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

YOU CAN DO THE RIGHT THING AND NOT BE VOTED OUT OF OFFICE AND STAND PROUD AND BE THE MOST POPULAR POLITICIAN IN THE COUNTRY.

THAT IS AN IMPORTANT TAKEAWAY IF YOU LOOK HOW SOME OTHER CENTRIST POLITICIANS ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT HAVE AT TIMES PANNEDERED TO POPULISTS BECAUSE THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR POLITICAL FUTURE.

SO WHO THEN DO YOU THINK STANDS TO BENEFIT FROM CHALLENGING HER AND FROM HER LEGACY?

BECAUSE HER OWN PARTY -- I MEAN, YOU TELL ME.

I KNOW YOU CAN'T PREDICT AND IT'S FLUID AND WE WOULDN'T WANT TO CALL THE ELECTION AHEAD OF TIME.

IS THE CDU PLACE TODAY WIN AGAIN OR THE CENTER LEFT, SOCIAL DEMOCRATS, GREENS ARE GOING TO MAKE A BIG SHOWING?

I MEAN, BASICALLY THREE CANDIDATES TO BEAT CHANCELLOR AND WHO HAVE NOMINATE ADD CANDIDATE.

THE GREENS FOR THE FIRST TIME.

THEY NEVER DID THAT BEFORE BECAUSE THEY NEVER HAD A CHANCE.

BUT THEY HAVE BEEN THE SECOND STRONGEST POLITICAL PARTY IN THE POLLS OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS.

AND UNTIL THEY WERE RECENTLY OVERTAKEN IN THIS CAMPAIGN BY THE SOCIAL DEMOCRATS.

THE TRADITIONAL SORT OF SECOND STRONGEST PARTY, WHICH WAS KIND OF OUT OF THIS ELECTION, BUT NOW ACTUALLY LOOKS TO BE THE FRONT RUNNING KIND OF PARTY IN THIS RACE.

SO TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, I MEAN, ANGELA MERKEL'S PARTY HAS A CANDIDATE AND IT WAS REALLY HIS ELECTION TO LOSE GIVEN MERKEL'S POPULARITY AND GIVEN THE FACT THAT THIS PARTY REALLY IS AN ELECTION-WINNING MACHINE.

THEY HAVE GOVERNED 52 OUT OF 72 YEARS IN POST-WAR HISTORY.

AND THEY WERE PRETTY CONFIDENT THEY WOULD WIN AGAIN.

BUT HE HAS MADE MANY BLUNDERS.

HE HAS BEEN CAUGHT ON CAMERA LAUGHING AT AN EVENT THAT WAS SORT OF COMMEMORATING THE VICTIMS OF THOSE DEADLY FLOODS IN THE SUMMER WHERE 180 PEOPLE DIED IN SOUTHERN GERMANY.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT MERKEL WOULD NEVER BE, YOU KNOW, CAUGHT DOING.

AND SO HIS INITIAL SORT OF ATTEMPT AND HIS PARTY'S HOPE HE WOULD COME ACROSS AS ALMOST MERKEL 2 AS A CANDIDATE OF CONTINUITY FLOPPED, AND HE IS NOW TRAILING.

THE GUY WHO RUNS FOR THE SOCIAL DEMOCRATS, THE TRADITIONAL OPPOSITION PARTY, BUT WHICH HAS BEEN IN COALITION WITH MERKEL AND OLAF SHULTZ, THE CANDIDATE, HAS BEEN HER FINANCE MINISTER FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS AND IN SOME WAYS IS MORE ASSOCIATED WITH HER ADMINISTRATION THAN WITH HIS OWN PARTY, WHICH IS ACTUALLY TO THE LEFT OF WHERE HE STANDS AND PRESENTS HIMSELF, IN SOME WAYS HE HAS TURNED OUT TO BE THE CANDIDATE THAT CAN PROJECT TO BE THE MOST LIKE MERKEL AND, IN FACT, AT TIMES HAS DONE SO IN VERY UNSUBTLE WAYS.

FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, MERKEL HAS THIS WAY OF HOLDING HER HANDS AND, NOW, AFTER 16 YEARS IT'S KIND OF A THING.

SHE DOES THIS KIND OF DIAMOND SHAPED THINGS WITH HER HANDS WHEN SHE IS PHOTOGRAPHED.

WE EVEN HAVE A NAME FOR IT IN GERMAN.

IT'S A GEOMETRIC SHAPE.

I THINK YOU GUYS CALL IT ROM BUS.

HE WAS BEING PHOTOGRAPHED DOING THE ROM BUS.

AND SORT OF HE WAS CHALLENGED AND IT WAS A LITTLE BIT RIDICULOUS.

THE POINT IS YOU HAVE THESE TWO GUYS WHO WERE TRYING TO COME ACROSS AS KIND OF EMBODYING CONTINUITY AND STABILITY AND REALLY BEING QUITE LIKE MERKEL.

AT THE MOMENT IT LOOKS LIKE OLAF SHULTZ IS WINNING AT THAT GAME.

WHAT ABOUT INTERNATIONAL LEADERSHIP?

OBVIOUSLY, GERMANS ARE VERY PROUD, YOU KNOW, BEING THE STRONGEST COUNTRY IN EUROPE FOR SUCH A LONG TIME, AND IT'S BEEN THE DEFENDER CERTAINLY UNDER MERKEL LOUD AND CLEAR OF DEMOCRACY, EVEN UNDER THESE TERRIBLE TURBULENT YEARS OF THE POPULOUS RISE FROM 2016.

FROM A PROTEGE, URSULA VON DER LEYEN, THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT TOLD ME ABOUT HER.

IT IS IMPRESSIVE TO SEE HOW SHE IS ABLE TO CONVENE PEOPLE.

SHE IS A TOUGH NEGOTIATOR, BUT SHE ALWAYS MAKES SURE THAT THE OTHER SIDE COMES OUT WITH A WIN.

SO THAT WE CAN STEP FORWARD IN NEGOTIATIONS WITH A WIN-WIN SITUATION.

SHE IS PLAIN AND SIMPLY A GOOD CHARACTER, AND THAT'S SOMETHING WHERE YOU HAVE NOT TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WHERE YOU CAN SAY THAT.

SO, IN ONE MINUTE THAT WE HAVE LEFT, WHAT WILL HER ABSENCE MEAN FOR EUROPE, FOR GERMANY, AND DO YOU THINK THERE IS A COMPETITOR, COULD FRANCE TRY TO COMPETE WITH GERMANY AS SORT OF LEADER OF EUROPE?

I MEAN, I THINK THIS IS PROBABLY THE MOMENT THAT EMMANUEL MACRON HAS BEEN WAITING FOR.

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN HE WAS FRESHLY ELECTED PEOPLE SAW HIM AS THAT.

IT WAS A TIME WHEN MERKEL HAD SOME DIFFICULTIES AND HE SEEMED TO BE THE NEW KID ON THE BLOCK WHO COULD TAKE ON THAT MANTLE.

HE LOOKS WEAKER NOW.

I THINK WE WON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT HIS POSITION IS UNTIL FRANCE HAS ITS OWN DIFFICULT ELECTION COMING UP IN JUNE NEXT YEAR.

BUT BASICALLY THE SHORT ANSWER IS I THINK ANGELA MERKEL'S SHOES ARE TOO BIG TO FILL RIGHT NOW AND IT'S FAR MORE LIKELY IT WILL BE A LEADERLESS EUROPE, THAT THERE WILL, YOU KNOW, A QUESTION OF SEVERAL LEADERS HAVING TO COALESCE AND COME AROUND THE TABLE AND DO WHAT SHE DID VERY MUCH AS KIND OF THE GATHERER OF THE CLUB.

SHE HAD THAT UNIQUE ABILITY TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER AND I AM NOT SURE I AM SEEING IT RIGHT NOW ANYWHERE ELSE IN EUROPE.

REALLY FASCINATING AND THE END OF AN ERA.

KATRIN BENNHOLD, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> TODAY WE WERE TREAT TODAY MERKEL'S LIGHTER SIDE WHEN THE OUTGOING CHANCELLOR VISIT ADD BIRD PARK ON THURSDAY.

A HANDFUL OF COLORFUL PARROTS GOT TO SAY HELLO.

ONE MASTERED NERVES OF STEEL BECAUSE IT PECKED THE IRON CHANCELLOR'S HAND AND GOT THAT REACTION.

DON'T OFTEN SEE IT.

> NOW TO COVID.

WITH OVER HALF THE AMERICAN POPULATION FULLY VACCINATED, A SIMILAR HESITANCY THAT AFFECTS THE CLIMATE AS WE DISCUSSED LINGERS ON.

ALSO IN LARGE PART DUE TO MISINFORMATION THAT IS SPREAD ONLINE.

NEAL MOHAN IS THE CHEEVER PRODUCT OFFICER AT YOUTUBE AND IN CHARGE OF COMBATTING THIS ISSUE AT THE PLATFORM.

HERE HE IS SPEAKING TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT STRIKING THE BALANCE BETWEEN FREE SPEECH AND DANGEROUS LIES.

THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

NEAL MOHAN, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

HI, HARI, GOAT TO BE WITH YOU.

FOR THE AUDIENCE TO HAVE A SCALE OF HOW BIG YOUTUBE IS, SOME STATS WE SHOULD REMIND THEM OF, THERE ARE ABOUT 2 BILLION USERS OF YOUTUBE.

THEY CONSUME ABOUT 1 BILLION HOURS OF VIDEO EVERY DAY AND ABOUT 500 HOURS OF NEW CONTENT IS UPLOADED TO YOUTUBE EVERY SINGLE MINUTE.

WHILE THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THERE IS PHENOMENAL YOUTUBE VIDEOS FOR ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL IN MY LIFE, THAT LACK OF A GATEKEEPER CREATES AN OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE TO USE YOUR PLATFORM TO MISS INFORM OR DISINFORM AUDIENCES THAT MIGHT NOT KNOW ANY BETTER.

WHAT KINDS OF STEPS HAVE YOU TAKEN IN THE PAST FEW YEARS TO TRY TO KIND OF DEPRIORITIZE THAT WHEN IT COMES TO SOMEONE SEARCHING FOR THE ANSWER TO A QUESTION?

SO THAT RESPONSIBILITY THAT YOU DESCRIBED, HARI, IN TERMS OF ENSURING THAT OUR PLATFORM IS NOT A PLACE FOR MISINFORMATION TO SPREAD OTHER TYPES OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE DEEM TO BE VIOLATIVE CONTENT IS MY NUMBER ONE PRIORITY, THE TOP PRIORITY OF, YOU KNOW, ALL OF US AT YOUTUBE.

IF YOU WILL INDULGE ME I WILL GIVE YOU SORT OF OUR FULL APPROACH TO THAT CHALLENGE.

THE FIRST STEP, OF COURSE, IS THAT, YES, WE ARE AN OPEN PLATFORM AND I AM A FIRM BELIEVER IN THE POWER OF THAT OPEN PLATFORM.

OUR MISSION IS TO GIVE EVERYONE A VOICE AND SHOW THEM THE WORLD, WHICH IS ABOUT GIVING EVERYBODY A CREATIVE OUTLET, A BUSINESS OUTLET, BUT ALSO GIVING PEOPLE, AS YOU ARE DESCRIBING, ACCESS TO INFORMATION THAT HELPS THEM MAKE THEIR LIVES BETTER, AND I THINK THAT COMES FROM AN OPEN PLATFORM.

BUT IT HAS NEVER BEEN ANYTHING GOES.

WE ALWAYS HAD COMMUNITY GUIDELINES AND THOSE COMMUNITY GUIDELINES WHETHER IT'S AROUND MISINFORMATION OR HATE SPEECH OR HARASSMENT, CHILD SAFETY, VIOLENT EXTREMISM GOVERN THE CONTENT THAT REMAINS ON OUR PLATFORM OR THAT WILL GET REMOVED.

IN ADDITION TO THAT FIRST R OF REMOVE, WE HAVE THREE OTHER R'S THAT I WOULD ARGUE ARE EQUALLY AND IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.

THE NEXT ONE IS WE CALL RAISE.

THAT'S ABOUT WHEN USERS ARE LOOKING FOR INFORMATION AROUND THE FAST BREAKING NEWS EVENT FOR EXAMPLE OR A HEALTH CRISIS LIKE THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC.

WE ENDEAVOR TO RAISE UP CONTENT FROM AUTHORITATIVE SOURCES FROM CHANNELS LIKE OUR NEWS PARTNERS OR HEALTH AUTHORITIES, WHETHER IT'S THE CDC OR THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION OR OTHER LOCAL HEALTH AUTHORITIES IN COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

AND YOU HAVE SEEN THAT RUN ON YOUTUBE EVERY TIME YOU OPEN THE APP A, YOU NOTICE THAT COVID-19 NEWS SHELF RUNNING THERE.

IT'S BEEN RUNNING OVER A YEAR AND A HALF.

THE THIRD R WE CALL REDUCE.

THAT'S ABOUT REDUCING RECOMMENDATIONS OF CONTENT THAT MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN QUITE POLICY VIOLATIVE, MIGHT BE IN A BLURRY SPACE, A SPACE WHERE THERE AREN'T CONTENT COMMUNITY GUIDELINE POLICIES.

WE ENDEAVOR TO REDUCE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT HAVE TYPE OF CONTENT IN OUR HOME FEED, IN THE VIDEOS THAT WE RECOMMEND TO WATCH AFTER YOU ARE DONE CONSUMING A VIDEO ON YOUTUBE.

THAT'S THE THIRD R.

THE FINAL R IS REWARD.

THAT'S THE RECOGNITION THAT, YOU KNOW, 99.9% OF THE CREATORS ON OUR PLATFORM ARE LOOKING TO DO THE RIGHT THING, TO BUILD AN AUDIENCE, BID A BUSINESS AND WE WANT TO REWARD THEM, WE WANT TO DIRECT THE FINANCIAL RESOURCE HAS ARE GENERATED THROUGH WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT IN TERMS OF ADVERTISING, ET CETERA, TO THOSE CREATORS LOOKING TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

IT'S THAT FOUR R'S, REMOVE, RAISE, REDUCE AND REWARD, THAT IS OUR COMPREHENSIVE APPROACH NOT JUST TO MISINFORMATION AND OTHER TYPES OF CONTENT WE DEEM TO BE PROGRAM AT ATTIC AND VIOLATIVE ON THE PROGRAM.

IT'S A FINE LINE BETWEEN WHAT IS FREE SPEECH, WHAT IS SAFETY, WHAT IS AN UNPOPULAR OPINION VERSE AS DANGEROUS ONE.

AND IN A WAY YOU ARE THE APP, THE COMPANY THAT IS TASKED WITH FIGURING THAT OUT ON THE FLY WITH 500 HOURS OF VIDEO COMING AT YOU EVERY MINUTE.

YEAH.

I MEAN, I THINK I WILL GO BACK TO WHAT I ALLUDED TO BEFORE, WHICH IS I AM A FIRM BELIEVER, MANY OF US AT YOUTUBE ARE, AROUND THE POWER OF AN OPEN PLATFORM.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE EXAMPLES OF THE POWER OF OUR OPEN PLATFORM IS THE GOLD MEDAL WINNER AT THE RECENT OLYMPIC GAMES IN TOKYO IN THE JAVELIN.

IT WAS A YOUNG INDIAN MAN WHO LEARNED TO THROW THE JAVELIN BY WATCHING YOUTUBE VIDEOS.

IT WAS AN INCREDIBLY POWERFUL AND INSPIRING STORY, AND THAT IS THE POWER OF AN OPEN PLATFORM.

YOU ARE POINTING OUT SOMETHING THAT I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH.

MISINFORMATION IN PARTICULAR BY NATURE IS FAST MOVING.

IT CHANGES REGULARLY.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT PLAY OUT IN THE MIDST OF THIS GLOBAL PANDEMIC.

THERE HAS BEEN ALL SORTS OF TYPES OF MISINFORMATION THAT I SIMPLY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PREDICT, EVEN A FEW DAYS BEFORE THEY BECAME A TREND, YOU KNOW.

FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN THE CORONAVIRUS WAS ASSOCIATED WITH 5G CELL TOWERS.

THAT WAS A PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT SORT OF CAME OUT OF THE BLUE.

BUT THE REASON WHY WE WEREN'T ABLE TO ACT IS WE HAD IN PLACE A FRAMEWORK AROUND MEDICAL MISINFORMATION, EVEN BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, THAT WAS BASED ON THINGS LIKE FALSE CURES, BASED ON ACTIONS THAT WOULD PREVENT PEOPLE FROM -- OR CONTENT THAT WOULD PREVENT PEOPLE FROM SEEKING TIMELY MEDICAL INTERVENTION, AND WE USE THAT FRAMEWORK TO WRITE THE SPECIFIC RULES AROUND COVID-19 MISINFORMATION.

IN FACT, WE WERE THE FIRST PLATFORM AS EARLY AS FEBRUARY 2020 TO HAVE A COMPREHENSIVE COVID-19 MISINFORMATION POLICY.

DID THAT MEAN WE NEEDED TO CONTINUE TO ADJUST THAT WITH NEW TYPES OF MISINFORMATION POPPING UP IN THE MIDST OF THE PANDEMIC?

OF COURSE.

TO MAKE SURE THAT VIEWERS AROUND THE WORLD ARE GETTING CREDIBLE, HIGH QUALITY INFORMATION.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE CONTENT THAT WE REMOVE.

WHEN USERS ARE LOOKING FOR THAT INFORMATION, CERTAINING ON YOUTUBE OR WATCHING VIDEOS, WE WERE RECOMMENDING CONTENT THAT CAME FROM AUTHORITATIVE SOURCES, HEALTH OUTLETS.

WE RAN INFORMATION PANELS ON THE ORDER OF HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF TIMES FOR VIEWERS ALL OVER THE WORLD THAT HAVE LINKS TO LOCAL HEALTH AUTHORITIES WITH THE MOST RECENT INFORMATION ABOUT HOW YOU COULD PROTECT YOUR HEALTH, PROTECT YOUR FAMILY IN THE MIDST OF THIS FAST-MOVING PANDEMIC.

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OF HOW THOSE PANELS WORKED?

BECAUSE AT THE SAME TIME THERE WAS RESEARCH THAT LOOKED INTO ABOUT A DOZEN PEOPLE THAT SPREAD ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF VACCINE AND CORONAVIRUS MISINFORMATION AND THEY WERE ON ALL KINDS OF SOCIAL PLATFORMS.

THEY WERE PROFITING OFF OF MISINFORMING OTHERS IN SOME CASES VERY INTENTIONALLY SO.

SO I'M WONDERING IF ONE OF THOSE BAD ACTORS IS ON YOUTUBE AND YOU HAVE THIS TINY PANEL AT THE BOTTOM THERE THAT SAYS 'HERE'S THE BEST INFORMATION FROM THE CDC' BELOW THAT VIDEO, HOW MANY PEOPLE ACTUALLY CLICK THROUGH FROM A VIDEO WHERE THEY COULD HAVE BEEN MISINFORMED TO A BETTER SOURCE THAT YOU HAD TAKEN THE TIME TO CURATE.

THE CORE SORT OF WAY THAT WE MEASURE IT AND THE WAY THAT WE HOLD OURSELVES ACCOUNTABLE AT YOUTUBE IS A METRIC CALLED THE VIOLATIVE VIEW RATE.

AND THAT IS A VIEW WEIGHTED RANDOM SAMPLING OF VIDEOS ACROSS OUR CORPUS THAT WE LOOK AT AND EVALUATE TO SEE IF THOSE VIDEOS CONTAIN MISINFORMATION, CONTAIN CONTENT THAT IS VIOLATIVE OF OUR POLICIES, AND IN A NUTSHELL WE TRY TO DRIVE THAT NUMBER DOWN AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO ZERO.

OF COURSE, IN A FAST-MOVING WORLD OF MISINFORMATION, OTHER TYPES OF CONTENT, SPEECH, ET CETERA, IT IS NOT QUITE ZERO.

IN FACT, THE LATEST METRIC THERE IS I THINK BETWEEN 0.19 AND .21%. OUT OF 10,000 VIDEOS, ABOUT 20 WERE DEEMED TO BE OF THE NATURE THAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING.

AND IN THE INTEREST OF TRANSPARENCY, A FEW MONTHS AGO WE STARTED TO PUBLISH THAT NUMBER ON A QUARTERLY BASIS.

YOU MENTIONED THE .19 TO .21, IF IT WAS 10,000, YOU HAVE 21 VIDEOS.

YOU HAVE BILLIONS OF VIDEOS ON THERE.

SO IF IT'S .19 TO .20, THAT'S HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS IF NOT MILLIONS OF VIDEOS THAT ARE KIND OF SLIPPING THROUGH THE CRACKS.

HOW DO YOU IMPROVE THAT?

I THINK A DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENT IN THIS AREA OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, FOR EXAMPLE, RECOMMENDATIONS OF THAT SORT OF HARMFUL MISINFORMATION BORDERLINE CONTENT IS DOWN 730%. -- 70%. WE MADE DOZENS OF CHANGES TO THE ALGORITHMS TO DO THAT IN ADDITION TO CONTENT WE REMOVE.

WE ARE NOT PERFECT.

AND WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO CHIP AWAY AT TRCHLT PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THEY WOULD CALL THE RABBIT HOLE.

HOW THE RECOMMENDATION ENGINE LEADS DOWN PATHS THAT ARE MORE SENSATIONAL AND MORE STICKY ON THE SORT OF SUPER HARMFUL SIDE YOU CAN SEE INCREASED POLITICAL RADICALIZATION AND THE LESS HARMFUL SIDE YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, WATCHED A CHILD START WITH A SOCCER VIDEO AND THEN 15 MINUTES LATER YOU COME BACK IN THE ROOM AND IT'S LIKE GORY ANIMALS EATING OTHER ANIMALS VIDEO THAT THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN WATCHING.

IT'S HARD FOR PEOPLE TO WRAP THEIR HEADS AROUND WHAT IS AT THE CORE OF THIS RECOMMENDATION AND HOW IS IT STRUCTURED TO GET TO THESE OTHER END RESULTS, AND WHY CAN'T WE STOP THAT?

WHEN WE HAVE LOOKED AT IF IN AN AGGREGATE BASIS WE HAVEN'T REALLY SEEN EVIDENCE OF THAT.

AGAIN, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT HASN'T HAPPENED, YOU KNOW, FOR INDIVIDUAL VIEWERS ANECDOTALLY, ET CETERA, BUT WE HAVE LOOKED AT THAT AND ACTUALLY THIRD-PAERT RESEARCHERS HAVE LOOKED AT THAT AND HAVE NOT SEEN OUR RECOMMENDATIONS SORT OF MOVING PEOPLE TOWARDS THIS MORE POLARIZED TYPE MUCH CONTENT.

WHAT I WILL SAY THAT'S EVEN I WOULD SAY SORT OF EVEN KIND OF ONE LEVEL ABOUT THAT IS WE DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN.

WE DON'T WANT OUR RECOMMENDATIONS TO PUSH PEOPLE TO THOSE EXTREMES.

THAT IS NOT, I THINK, GOOD FOR -- FROM A RESPONSIBILITY -- AS A GLOBAL PLATFORM STANDPOINT AND ALSO NOT FUNDAMENTALLY GOOD FOR US AS A BUSINESS.

I GET THAT THE RESEARCHERS MIGHT NOT SEE IT, BUT WE HAVE INTERVIEWED FORMER WHITE SUPREMACISTS ON THIS PROGRAM AND THERE HAVE BEEN PLENTY OF INDICATES WHERE PEOPLE TELL YOU THAT HERE IS THE WAY TO BEAT THE ALGORITHM.

HERE IS THE WAY TO BE MORE SENSATIONAL, GET MORE CLICKS.

YOU KNOW, BE MORE EDGY.

AND THAT THESE RABBIT HOLES EXIST AND ONCE YOU ARE WATCHING, YOU KNOW, A VACCINE MISINFORMATION THING, THE NEXT THING YOU ARE KIND OF SHOWN A FLAT EARTH THING AND THEN REALIZE YOU ARE IN A 9/11 CONSPIRACY TRUTHER THING.

NO HUMAN COULD SIT THERE AND WATCH ALL THE INCOMING YOUTUBES AND, YOU KNOW, MODERATE AND SAY THIS IS GOING TO BE OKAY AND THIS IS QUESTIONABLE AND PUT THIS IN THIS BIN, THAT IN THAT BIN.

HOW DO YOU TRAIN AN ALGORITHM TO DO THAT?

WE ARE BY NO MEANS PERFECT.

WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO CHIP AWAY.

WE MAKE IMPROVEMENTS TO THE RECOMMENDATION ALGORITHMS ON A REGULAR BAY IN A FUNDAMENTAL SENSE THE WAY WE DO IT AT OUR SCALE IS TWOFOLD.

THE FIRST IS WE ARE NOT MAKING THESE DECISIONS ON OUR OWN.

WE WORK WITH EXTERNAL EVALUATORS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

THEY ARE GIVEN A SET OF GUIDELINES.

WE ACTUALLY PUBLISH THOSE GUIDELINES, EXTERNALLY AVAILABLE GUIDELINES, THAT ARE THE MEANS BY WHICH THEY SHOULD EVALUATE A SAMPLE OF VIDEOS THAT WE GIVE THEM.

AND A VIDEO IS EVALUATED BY NINE DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, RATERS THAT COME FROM THIS, YOU KNOW, KIND OF BROAD EXTERNAL POOL BASED ON THESE EXTERNAL GUIDELINES.

IN CASES OF SPECIALIZED CONTENT, FOR EXAMPLE, HEALTH-RELATED, WE RELY ON MEDICAL DOCTORS.

THESE ARE THE SORT OF EXTERNAL EVALUATORS THAT CREATE THE RATINGS OF A CERTAIN SET OF VIDEOS AND WE USE THOSE VIDEOS TO TRAIN WELL TESTED MACHINE LEARNING ALGORITHMS THAT ALLOW US TO APPLY THOSE PRINCIPLES AND THOSE GUIDELINES THAT ARE DEVELOPED BY THE RATERS TO OUR ENTIRE CORPUS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF VIDEOS THAT WE ACT ON ARE ACTED ON, YOU KNOW, WITH MINIMAL VIEWS.

WE MENTIONED FLAT EARTH, FOR EXAMPLE.

SO WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT THERE ARE A LOT MORE VIDEOS AROUND THE EARTH BEING FLAT, BEING CREATED THAN VIDEOS OF THE EARTH BEING ROUND.

YOU MAKE A VIDEO AROUND THE EARTH BEING ROUND, YOU DON'T NEED TO MAKE TOO MANY OF THOSE.

YOU MAKE ONE THAT SORT OF BECOMES THE CANONICAL VIDEO.

BUT THE VIEWS ON THOSE VIDEOS ARE DRAMATICALLY LOWER THAN THE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF THE ROUND EARTH VIDEOS.

SO I DO THINK IT'S A BIT OF A MYTH THAT A VIE THAT IS A CONSPIRACY VIDEO BY ITS NATURE IS GOING TO DRAW MORE ENGAGEMENT, INTERACTION.

WE DON'T SEE IT BEARING OUT AND THAT'S A VERY CONCRETE EXAMPLE OF KIND OF A LONG STANDING CONSPIRACY WHERE THAT HASN'T BEEN TRUE.

WHAT HAPPENS IN THE POLITICAL CONTEXT?

RECENTLY THERE WERE CASES IN BRAZIL WITH THE PRESIDENT, SOME OF HIS SUPPORTERS, YOU DECIDED TO TAKE SOME OF THOSE VIDEOS DOWN.

I THINK UNDER VIOLATION OF YOUR HEALTH POLICY GUIDELINES BECAUSE IT WAS IN THE CONTEXT OF CORONAVIRUS, RIGHT?

AND YOU MENTIONED IT KIND OF ALL USERS HAVE TO LIVE BY THE SAME COMMUNITY GUIDELINES.

SO IN THE CASE WHERE YOU ARE TAKING DOWN A PRESIDENT'S VIDEO, IS THAT NOT AN INHERENTLY POLITICAL ACT TO ALL OF THAT PRESIDENT'S SUPPORTERS?

LET'S BRING IT CLOSER TO HOME.

PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT ON YOUTUBE RIGHT NOW.

IS HE GOING TO COME BACK?

AND WHAT WOULD THE THRESHOLD BE?

THE BEST WAY FOR US TO ABLE TO ADDRESS THAT IS ON AN OPEN PLATFORM LIKE YOUTUBE, IS TO HAVE A CLEAR SET OF COMMUNITY GUIDELINES AND TO HAVE THOSE GUIDELINES APPLY UNIVERSALLY REGARDLESS OF WHO THE SPEAKER IS, AND THEN ALSO TO HAVE A FRAMEWORK BY WHICH WE ACT.

SO ONE OF THE LONG STANDING SORT OF FRAMEWORKS THAT WE HAD AT YOUTUBE IS WHAT'S CALLED A THREE STRIKES FRAMEWORK.

YOU ARE GIVEN THREE CHANCES, IF YOU WILL, AROUND, YOU KNOW, POLICY VIOLATIONS AROUND YOUR CONTENT BEFORE YOUR CHANNEL CAN BE TERMINATED FROM YOUTUBE.

OF COURSE, WE TERMINATE CHANNELS FOR VIOLATIONS ON A REGULAR BASIS, AGAIN, REGARDLESS OF WHO THE SPEAKER, IT'S BASED ON THE CONTENT ON THE PLATFORM.

IN THE CASE OF, YOU KNOW, THE KPAFRMTS THAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING, WE HAVE TAKEN ACTION ON CHANNELS THAT -- VIDEOS THAT HAVE COME FROM HEADS OF STATE.

THEY HAVE BEEN VIOLATIONS, CLEAR VIOLATIONS OF OUR COMMUNITY GUIDELINES.

WHEN THAT HAPPENS WE WILL ISSUE -- WE WILL REMOVE -- REMOVE THE VIDEO AND ISSUE A STRIKE.

AND IN THE CASE OF PRESIDENTS TRUMP -- PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CHANNEL, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN JANUARY A VIDEO WAS UPLOADED, A VIOLATION OF OUR COMMUNITY GUIDELINES AND AS A RESULT THAT VIDEO CAME DOWN AND THE CHANNEL RECEIVED A STRIKE.

NOW, NORMALLY OUR STRIKE REGIME IS ONE WHERE FOR THE FIRST STRIKE THE CHANNEL IS SUSPEND -- YOU KNOW, SUSPENDED STATE FOR ABOUT A WEEK, FOR SEVEN DAYS, BUT WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO ALSO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT EXTERNAL FACTORS LIKE RISK, AS I SAID AT THE VERY BEGINNING, TO THINGS LIKE KIND OF REAL-WORLD HARM, EGREENLOUS HARM, PHYSICAL VIOLENCE, ET CETERA.

WHEN THAT'S THE CASE WE MAINTAIN THAT KIND OF SUSPENDED STATE UNDERNEATH THE STRIKE REGIME THAT WE DESCRIBED AND THAT HAPPENS TO BE THE POSITION THAT THAT CHANNEL IS IN RIGHT NOW.

NEAL MOHAN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU, HARI.

GREAT TO BE HERE.

> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANKS FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' ON PBS AND JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.