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> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
WE HAVE A CULTURE OF DISBELIEVING SURVIVORS AND VICTIMS AND BELIEVING THEIR POWERFUL ACCUSERS.
VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN, ANITA HILL JOINS ME ABOUT HER 30-YEAR BATTLE AGAINST AN EPIDEMIC THAT NEVER ENDS AND HER NEW BOOK 'BELIEVING'. PLUS --
AT NO TIME WAS I ATTEMPTING TO CHANGE OR INFLUENCE THE PROCESS, UTHORP AUTHORITY OR INSERT MYSELF IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.
THE TOP GENERAL IN THE HOT SEAT, CHAIRMAN MILLEY GETS A DRILLING OVER THE AFGHANISTAN WITHDRAWAL AND REPORTS HE WENT OVER TRUMP'S HEAD TO STOP HIM FROM STARTING A WAR.
THEN --
I NEED TO GO THE EXTRA MILE
THE POWER OF FORGIVENESS, EXTRAORDINARY STORY OF THIS MAN'S FIGHT TO SAVE THE WHITE SUPREMACIST WHO TRIED TO KILL HIM.
AND FINALLY --
YOU COULD NOT BELIEVE HOW IT WOULD BE LIKE A MOVIE.
THAT'S A WRAP.
ON A PROJECT THAT IS 60 YEARS IN THE MAKING.
THE ARTIST'S NEPHEW AND COLLABORATOR TELLS ME ABOUT BRINGING THIS DREAM TO LIFE.
Announcer: 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WALKENHEIM III, AND -- ADD SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE PETER G.
PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.
AND BY --
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
CITY REELING FROM SCHOOL TEACHER SIMPLY GOING ABOUT HER DAILY LIFE NATIONAL CONVERSATION AROUND VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMAN THAT STARTED SIX MONTHS AGO MASS PROTEST OVER A MURDER OF SARAH -- AND THE CONVERSATION CONTINUES IN THE UNITED STATES WITH R&B SINGER R. KELLY GUILTY AFTER SEXUAL ABUSE ACCESS SEX TRAFFICKING AND THE ABUSE AND K NOT TO MENTION THE ABUSE AWAY FROM THE SPOTLIGHT EVERY I DID.
MY FIRST GUEST TACKLES VIOLENCE WHEN TESTIFIED 30 YEARS AGO THEN-SUPREME COURT NOMINEE THOMAS SEXUALLY ATTACKED HER.
SHE JUST WROTE HER BOOK 'BELIEVING' ANITA HILL.
WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.
OH, IT'S A PLEASURE.
R. KELLY, THIS AMERICAN ICON, CULTURAL BEHEMOUTH SOUTH CAROLINA HAS BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF ALL CRIMES.
SEX TRAFFICKING AND EXPLOITATION AND WE HAVE ARRESTS IN LONDON.
IT'S SADLY AN ALL-TOO FAMILIAR PHENOMENON WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO ADDRESS.
ABSOLUTELY.
THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO ADDRESS, THESE CASES AND THOUSANDS OF OTHERS I HEARD ABOUT SINCE 1991 WHEN I FIRST TESTIFIED BEFORE THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE.
THE PROBLEM HAS NOT GONNA WAY, IT CONTINUES TODAY.
THE R. KELLY TRIAL AND CONVICTION, OR JURY VERDICT, AT THIS POINT, JUST REMINDS ME THAT, YOU KNOW, IT OFTEN TAKES YEARS FOR THESE CASES TO GET THROUGH THE SYSTEM.
IN THE MEANTIME, INDIVIDUALS LIKE R. KELLY AND LARRY NASSAR IN THIS COUNTRY, COULD BE MOLESTING AND ABUSING OTHERS.
SO LARRY NASSAR, OF COURSE, WAS THE U.S. GYMNASTICS TEAM THERAPIST AND HE HAS BEEN ACCUSED MULTIPLE TIMES.
AS YOU SAY, YES, THIS WENT ON FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.
WE'LL GET TO THAT IN FEW SECONDS BUT WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE DIANA WHEN IT COME DYNAMIC, WHEN IT COMES POWERFUL MEN.
THERE IS AN INTERVIEW WITH R.
KELLY NOT JUST DENYING IT BUT PHYSICALLY IMPOSING HIS BODY IN A HUGELY INTIMIDATING MANNER ON HER, AS IF TO SAY, DON'T YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT THIS. DOES THAT SPEAK BEYOND THE ISSUES OR TO THE HEART OF THE INJURIES.
OF COURSE SPEAKS TO THE ISSUES ABOUT POWER, HOW POWERFUL MEN INTIMIDATE AND ABUSE AND ALSO HOW THEY KEEP FROM GETTING CAUGHT AND PROSECUTED.
AND WE SAW EVIDENCE OF THAT JUST THE WILLINGNESS TO TRY TO ESCAPE ANY ACCOUNTABLE THROUGH INTIMIDATINGGAYLE KING A JOURNALIST TRYING TO DO HER JOB.
THERE WAS BACKLASH AGAINST GAYLE FOR THAT INTERVIEW.
WHY DO YOU THINK THERE WAS BACKLASH AGAINST SOMEONE WHO WAS JUST ASKING HIM JOURNALISTIC QUESTIONS, MUCH LESS OBVIOUSLY THE VICTIMS A TERRIBLE PERSISTENT SITUATION.
THE SHORT ANSWER IS WE HAVE A CULTURE OF DISBELIEVING SUPPORT VIVA -- SURVIVORS AND VICTIMS AND BELIEVING THE ACCUSERS.
POWER COMES IN MANY WAYS.
COULD BE POWER TO CONTROL YOUR JOBS, YOUR GRADES OR GETTING A DEGREE IN UNIVERSITY.
IT COULD BE POWER TO, YOU KNOW, TO -- OVER WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE GOING TO GHITELMAN A RAISE IN YOUR GOING TO GET A RAISE IN YOUR WORKPLACE.
SO WE HAVE TO LOOK AT POWER AND THE POWER DYNAMICS A LOT OF THESE SITUATIONS OCCUR UNDER AND REALIZE POWER IS ALWAYS AN ELEMENT.
IT IS ALSO THE THING THAT PROTECTS THESE MEN.
WE BELIEVE, NOT ONLY DO WE DISBELIEVE VICTIMS AND SURVIVORS BUT WE HAVE TANDENCY TO ALWAYS BELIEVE THE MOST POWERFUL MAN AND THEY WILL USE THAT POWER TO INFLUENCE ANYONE WHO MIGHT DARE BE A DETRACTOR.
DO YOU THINK WE'VE MOVED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION IN THE LAST 30 YEARS?
WE DEFINITELY HAVE MOVED.
THE PUBLIC HAS MOVED.
I THINK SOME OF OUR INSTITUTIONS HAVE MOVED.
THE ME TOO MOVEMENT DID A GREAT -- MADE A GREAT CONTRIBUTION TO OUR AWARENESS OF THE PREVALANCE OF THE PROBLEM.
NOW WE KNOW THAT.
BUT -- BUT WE STILL PUT VICTIMS IN THE OLD SYSTEMS, THE SYSTEMS THAT IN MANY CASES WERE NOT BUILT TO HEAR THEM AND ACCOMMODATE THEIR TRUTH AND INVESTIGATE FULLY.
THAT'S THE SYSTEM I WENT INTO.
A SYSTEM THAT THERE WASN'T EVEN A WAY TO FILE MY COMPLAINT THAT WAS APPARENT AND TRANSPARENT.
ALSO THE KIND OF SYSTEM THAT CHRISTINE BLASE FORD WENT INTO IN FRONT OF THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE IN 2018.
I THINK THOSE ARE GREAT EXAMPLES OF WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.
IT'S NOT THAT THE PUBLIC DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THESE ISSUES.
IT'S THAT THE SYSTEMS THAT ARE IN PLACE HAVE FAILED US.
WHETHER IT'S A CIVIL JUSTICE SYSTEM OR THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.
I WANT TO JUST PLAY A REALLY INTERESTING CLIP FROM A PODCAST THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN PART IN AND IN ONE INSTANCE ALSO WITH CHRISTINE BLACE FORD AN EXCHANGE ABOUT THE TWO OF YOU AND YOUR EXPERIENCE, I WANT TO PLAY A SHORT CLIP AND ASK YOU ABOUT IT.
I HAVE A VERY PROTECTIVE ININSTINCTIVE.
AND WHAT WE MET ONE CONCERN WAS GOING TO BE OKAY.
I LEFT FEELING ASSURED YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO HANDLE WHAT'S GOING ON IN YOUR LIFE.
YOU HAD A STRONG CORE TO GET YOU THROUGH IT.
YES, I REMEMBER YOU SAYING I WOULD HAVE A MUCH BETTER PERSPECTIVE IN FIVE YEARS N 25 YEARS, AND YOU WERE RIGHT.
WHAT DID YOU TAKE FROM THAT ENCOUNTER?
DO YOU THINK -- SHE'S THE ONLY KNOWN PERSON TO HAVE GONE THROUGH WHAT YOU DID IN SUCH A PUBLIC MANNER, EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID, AND I WONDER HOW YOU FEEL SHE'S PROCESSING IT AND HOW MAYBE IT WAS DIFFERENT THAN HOW YOU DID, WHETHER THE ENVIRONMENT HAS CHANGED ENOUGH
MY FEELING IS THAT THAT SHE DESERVES TO BE HEARD.
AND THE STORY NEEDS TO BE COVERED.
IT'S NOT OVER YET.
IT'S NOT EVER GOING TO BE OVER FOR HER IN HER LIFE.
IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE PART OF HER LIFE.
THESE PUBLIC HEARINGS, LIKE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE HEARINGS ARE A REFLECTION ON WHO WE ARE AS A SOCIETY.
AS A COUNTRY.
THEY CAN GIVE PEOPLE HOPE AND TRUST IN OUR INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE SENATE AND THE PRESIDENCY.
OR THEY CAN TAKE IT AWAY.
YOU RECOUNT, YOU KNOW, IN A FAIRLY SORT OF WRY HUMOROUS VEIN IN YOUR BOOK ALL THIS TALK ABOUT APOLOGY.
YOU WOULD JOKE ABOUT IT WITH YOUR HUSBAND WHEN THE DOORBELL RANG YOU WOULD JOKE IS THAT JOE BIDEN COMING TO APOLOGIZE, HE DID APOLOGIZE WHAT YOU WENT THROUGH BUT NOT FOR THE ENORMITY OF WHAT THE COUNTRY WENT THROUGHnd YOU SAY, ONE THING STRUCK ME HE NEVER MENTIONED WHAT THE COUNTRY WENT THROUGH DURING THE HEARING.
YES I SUFFERED INSULTS DURING THE HEARING AND IMMEDIATELY AFTER I RETURNED HOME AND REMAIN NUMB TO THE VOICE MESSAGES LEFT ON MY PHONE BUT MILLIONS AGONIZED AS THEY VIEWED IT.
THAT'S REALLY AN IMPORTANT CONTEXT.
YOU'RE PUTTING IT BEYOND YOURSELF.
DO YOU THINK THE COUNTRY HAS PROCESSED IT?
AND, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE WORD RECOVERED -- BUT MOVED TO A POINT WHERE THINGS HAVE ACTUALLY MATERIALLY CHANGED?
IN SOME ASPECTS, YES.
THERE HAS BEEN CHANGE.
SOME.
HOWEVER, IT'S NOT ENOUGH.
IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO SAY, OKAY, WELL, SOME THINGS HAVE CHANGED AND WE'LL LET ANOTHER GENERATION DEAL WITH IT.
THE CONSEQUENCES ARE MYRIAD, THEY'RE ALMOST -- WELL, MAYBE THEY ARE REALLY EVEN LARGER IN NUMBER THAN THE KINDS OF BEHAVIOR I'M DEALING WITH IN THIS BOOK, WHICH AS I SAY FROM BULLYING IN SCHOOLS TO SEXUAL ASSAULT AND MURDER IN THE MILITARY.
THE COUNTRY IS EXPERIENCING ALL OF US.
ONE WAY WE TRY TO DIMINISH IT IS TO SAY IT'S A PERSONAL PROBLEM, THAT IT ONLY EFFECTS A HAND OFFAL OF PEOPLE.
-- HANDFUL OF PEOPLE.
THAT THE BEHAVIOR ISN'T ALL THAT BAD.
OR WE EVEN TRY TO NORMALIZE IT AND SAY, YOU KNOW, IT IS JUST WHAT HAPPENS, IT'S JUST WHAT PEOPLE DO, AND THERE'S NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.
WE CAN'T AFFORD TO DO THAT ANY MORE.
CAN I ASK YOU WHERE THE AG, A WOMAN LETTISHIA JAMES IN HER INVESTIGATION INTO THE FORMER GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO WHERE DOES THAT FIT IN HOW YOU THINK THESE CASES AND ALLEGATIONS SHOULD BE MORE SUCCESSFULLY PURSUED?
WELL, I'M VERY GLAD YOU ASKED THAT QUESTION BECAUSE I HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT LETICIA JAMES HAS SET UP AN EXAMPLE, SHE'S PUT TOGETHER A MODEL FOR HOW CLAIMS AGAINST POLITICAL FIGURES SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED AND HANDLED. BUT THE MODEL EXTENDS BEYOND THE POLITICAL FIGURES.
THE MODEL REALLY CAN APPLY IN SOME WAYS, YOU KNOW, NOT EXACTLY THE SAME APPROACH BUT IN SOME WAYS IT COULD BE A MODEL FOR PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS, IT COULD BE A MODEL FOR EXAMPLE THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE SO THAT WHEN THERE IS A COMPLAINT THAT THERE IS A PROCESS IN PLACE FOR WHERE THE COMPLAINTANT SHOULD GO, WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THEIR COMPLAINT, THE FACT THAT THERE WILL BE FACT-FINDING, AND INVESTIGATION THAT WILL CONSULT WITH AND TALK WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE.
THERE WILL BE STANDARDS FOR EVALUATING THE EVIDENCE.
AND THEN THERE WILL BE A FULL EXPLANATION FOR ALL OF IT AND THE CONCLUSIONS THAT ARE REACHED.
WE DON'T HAVE THAT IN OUR POLITICAL BODIES RIGHT NOW.
IN ANY FORM.
AND CERTAINLY NOT IN THE TRANSPARENCY THAT WE HAVE WITH L LETICIA JAMES.
YOU MENTIONED THE SENATE COMMISSION SEVERAL TIMES, THE REAL QUESTION IS HAVE YOU HEALED IN THE INTERVENING 30 YEARS.
I'D LIKE TO SAY NOT ONLY HAVE I HEALED BUT I THINK I'VE GROWN.
AND -- AND WITH THAT GROWTH, WAND THAT HEALING, HAS COME A GREATER COMMITMENT TO THESE ISSUES.
I NEVER STARTED OUT TO BE WHERE I AM TODAY, TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE.
BUT.
BUT.
THIS IS, I BELIEVE, WHERE I AM MEANT TO BE.
THAT ALL OF US DESERVE BETTER.
BECAUSE GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE HURTS ALL OF US BUT ESPECIALLY VICTIMS OF SURVIVORS.
AND TWO, THAT WE CAN DO BETTER.
THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO APPROACH THE ISSUES THAT I DISCUSS.
THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE SOLVE THE PROBLEMS OF BULLYING AND HARASSMENT AND RAPE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT AND STALKING AND INTIMATE PARTNER VIOLENCE.
WE DESERVE THEM.
AND WE CAN DO THIS.
AS A SOCIETY.
LET'S HOPE.
ANITA HILL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU.
> NEXT, A GRILLING FOR TOP U.S. MILITARY OFFICIALS, CHAIRMAN OF CHIEF MARK MILLEY AND SECRETARY OF DEFENSE LLOYD AUSTIN HAVE BEEN TESTIFYING BEFORE THE SENATE ON THE WITHDRAW OF U.S. TROOPS FROM AFGHANISTAN.
SECRETARY AUSTIN SAID WE DIDN'T PLAN A COLLAPSE OF GOVERNMENT IN DAYS.
WE HELPED TO BUILD A STATE MR. CHAIRMAN BUT WE COULD NOT FORGE A NATION.
THE FACT THE AFGHAN ARMY WE TRAINED MELTED AWAY WITHOUT FIRING A SHOT AND TOOK US BY SURPRISE.
WOULD BE DISHONEST TO CLAIM OTHERWISE.
WOULD YOU USE THE TERM EXTRAORDINARY SUCCESS FOR WHAT TOOK PLACE IN AUGUST IN AFGHANISTAN?
THAT'S THE NON-COMBATANTE VAC UATION AND AS WAS SAID IT WAS A LOGISTICAL SUCCESS BUT STRATEGIC FAILURE.
I THINK THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT TERMS.
GENERAL MILLEY ASKED ABOUT REPORTS HE TOLD THE CHINESE HE WOULD WARN THEM IF FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP WAS ABOUT TO LAUNCH A WAR AGAINST THEM.
HE'S DEFENDED HIS ACTIONS SAYING THEY WERE NOT INTENDED TO, QUOTE, USURP AUTHORITY.
LET'S GET INTO ALL THIS WITH RICHARD COHEN A MILITARY HISTORIAN JOINING NOW FROM DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, MR. COHEN.
YOU LISTENED TO THE TESTIMONY AND LIST WATCHED THE CHAOTIC WITHDRAW FROM AFGHANISTAN WHAT ARE YOUR FIRST INIMPRESSIONS HOW THEY RESPONDED TO THE QUESTIONS.
I THINK THEY RESPONDED HONESTLY AS THEY COULD.
THERE WAS A CERTAIN DEGREE OF POLITICAL THEATER.
ATTACKS ON PRESIDENT BIDEN AND BLAME ON PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR THE FEBRUARY 2022 KIND OF SURRENDER TO THE TALIBAN.
BUT I THINK IT BROUGHT FORWARD A LOT OF INFORMATION AND UNDERSTANDING WHAT GENERAL MILLEY WAS TRYING TO DO AND WHAT THE MILITARY DID ACCOMPLISHING A VERY FAST AND VERY LARGE AIR-LIFT EVENT EVACUATION.
WHEN YOU SAY NEW INFORMATION, YOU'RE A HISTORIAN LOOKING AT THIS, WHAT PARTICULARLY STRUCK YOU AS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PIECE OF NEW INFORMATION?
WELL, MY -- MY BRIEF, IF YOU WILL, IS THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THE MILITARY AND THE SENIOR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP AND I THINK GENERAL MILLEY EXPLAINED IN DETAIL THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON THESE TWO CALLS TO CHINESE GENERAL, SENIOR CHINESE MILITARY PERSON.
WHY HE THOUGHT RESIGNATION WAS REALLY INAPPROPRIATE.
IT WOULD BE INAPPROPRIATE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BUT HE HAD NOTHING TO RESIGN OVER.
WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO DO IS MAKE CERTAIN THE PROCESSES FOR CERTAINLY THE RELEASE OF NUCLEAR WEAPON BUT ANY SIGNIFICANT MILITARY ACTIVITY THAT HE WOULD BE INVOLVED IN THE DISCUSSIONS BECAUSE HIS JOB IS TO ADVISE THE PRESIDENT ON MILITARY MATTERS.
OKAY.
SO LET'S PLAY THIS.
BECAUSE NOW YOU'RE TALKING NOT ABOUT THE AFGHANISTAN STORY, PRIMARILY BUT ABOUT THE REPORTS IN THE BOB WOODWARD AND COSTA BOOK CALLED 'PERIL' IN WHICH THEY SAY GENERAL MILLEY TWICE CALLED HIS CHINESE COUNTERPART TO ASSURE THAT UNITED STATES WOULD NOT LAUNCH A MILITARY STRIKE.
TRUMP SAID I DIDN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT ATTACKING CHINA AND HE DENOUNCES MILLEY.
AS YOU SAY, MILLEY HAD RESPONSE TO THIS IN HIS OPENING STATEMENT.
I'D LIKE TO PLAY IT, SO MUCH HAS BEEN MADE WHETHER HE USURPED THE CHAIN OF COMMAND OR TALKED TO ADVERSARIAL NATION ABOUT MILITARY PLANNING OR NOT.
THIS IS WHAT HE EXPLAINED.
I ROUTINELY COMMUNICATED WITH MY COUNTERPART GENERAL LEE WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT AND SPECIFICALLY DIRECTLY COMMUNICATE WITH THE CHINESE BY DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE GUIDANCE, POLICY SYSTEM, THESE MILITARY TO MILITARY COMMUNICATIONS AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL ARE CRITICAL FOR THE SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES IN ORDER TO DECONFLICT MILITARY ACTIONS, MANAGE CRISIS AND PREVENT WAR BETWEEN GREAT POWERS THAT ARE ARMED WITH THE WORLD'S MOST DEADLIEST WEAPON.
THE CALLS ON 30, OCTOBER, AND 8, JANUARY, WERE COORDINATED BEFORE AND AFTER WITH SECRETARY ESPER AND ACTING SECRETARY MILLER'S STAFF AND THE INTERAGENCY.
THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE OF THE OCTOBER AND JANUARY CALLS WERE GENERATED BY CONCERNING INTELLIGENCE WHICH CAUSED US TO BELIEVE THE CHINESE WERE WEARY ABOUT AN ATTACK ON THEM BY THE UNITED STATES.
SO, HE IS FRAMING IT IN THE FACT IT'S COMPLETELY ACCORDING TO SCRIPT AND HE DID NOTHING WRONG OR DID NOT SUBVERT THE MILITARY/CIVILIAN RELATIONSHIP.
IS THERE ANY PRECEDENT YOU KNOW OF A U.S. TOP GENERAL, I GUESS, TRYING TO REASSURE A TOP ADVERSARIAL GENERAL, NOT LIKE A NATO PARTNER.
THIS IS CHINA WHICH IS OPENLY TRYING TO COMPETE WITH THE UNITED STATES, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT STRIKES YOU AS KIND OF STRANGE ABOUT THAT?
NO, THERE WERE INSTANCES DURING THE COLD WAR IN WHICH THE SENIOR -- MOST SENIOR AMERICAN GENERAL OR MILITARY LEADER REASSURED THE SOVIETS THAT THINGS WERE ON TRACK AND THAT THERE WAS NO IMMINENT DANGER OF WAR BETWEEN THE TWO. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO DO THAT, SO THAT THERE'S NO MISPERCEPTION, THERE'S NO ESCALATION, THERE'S NO INADVERTENT WAR.
AND I THINK GENERAL MILLEY WAS ACCOMPLISHING ONE OF HIS CHIEF MISSIONS, WHICH IS TO KEEP THE PEACE.
AND HE HAD INTELLIGENCE INFORMATION THAT THE CHINESE WERE VERY WORRIED.
THE SECOND CALL WAS AT THE INVITATION OF THE CHINESE.
SO, I THINK HE DID A GOOD JOB OF IT.
AND WHETHER HE REASSURED THEM OR NOT THE SECOND TIME, I'M NOT SO SURE IN THE WAKE OF THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION.
AND WHAT ABOUT OTHER, YOU KNOW, REPORTS IN THIS BOOK THAT HAVE RAISED EYEBROWS, THIS IS ALONG THE SAME SORT OF LINES.
YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN SUGGESTED THAT GENERAL MILLEY KNEW HE WAS QUOTE/UNQUOTE PULLING A SLENINGER AT THE TIME FOR RICHARD NIXON AND TOLD HIS TOP OFFICIALS TO CHECK WITH HIM AND THE JOINT CHIEFS BEFORE ACTING ON ORDERS FROM NIXON WHO WAS THEN IN THE MIX MIDST OF IMPEACHMENT INVESTIGATIONS.
I GUESS NIXON WAS VIEWED SOMEWHAT, MAYBE AT SOME TIME, AS KIND OF THE MAD-MAN THEORY.
CERTAINLY PRESIDENT TRUMP CULTIVATED THAT ABOUT HIMSELF, PARTICULARLY DURING THE VERBAL CONFRONTATION WITH NORTH KOREA.
AGAIN, IS APPROPRIATE, AND IS THERE PRECEDENT FOR TOP NATIONAL SECURITY PEOPLE, WHETHER MILITARY OR OTHERWISE, TO QUESTION AND URGE THEIR SUBORDINATES NOT TO DO ANYTHING THAT THE PRESIDENT ORDERS WITHOUT CHECKING WITH THEM.
IS THAT CONSTITUTIONALLY SOUND?
NO.
AND IT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED EITHER.
WITH NIXON OR THE TRUMP CASE.
I THINK WHAT GENERALS HAVE DONE, WHAT SECRETARY SLESSINGER HAD DONE WAS TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO FOLLOW NORMAL, STANDARD PROCEDURES TO MAKE SURE NOTHING HAPPENS THAT IS EITHER ILLEGAL OR UNINTENDED.
THAT'S WHAT GENERAL MILLEY WAS DOING.
HE WAS MAKING SURE THAT THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR ASSEMBLY THE INDIVIDUALS FOR DISCUSSION SHOULD SOME ORDER COME THAT THEY WOULD FOLLOW THE PROCEDURES THAT WERE IN PLACE AND HAD LONG BEEN IN PLACE AND ARE PRACTICED CONSTANTLY.
I THINK THE PROBLEM HERE IS PEOPLE ASSUME BECAUSE GENERAL MILLEY TALKED SO MUCH TO THE PRESS AND APPEARED IN SO MANY BOOKS, THAT'S SOMETHING FOR A DIFFERENT DISCUSSION, THAT HE WAS ARROW GATING TO HIMSELF POLICY AND APPEARING TO PREPARE TO TRY TO BLOCK THE PRESIDENT.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE.
I THINK IT'S A MIS-READING WHATEVER HAPPENED.
I THINK HE SET THE RECORD PRETTY STRAIGHT ON THAT SUBJECT.
AND OF COURSE HE DOES HAVE A HUGE AMOUNT -- AND HAS APOLOGIZED FOR DOING THE WRONG THING, HE SAID, BY APPEARING AT A PR-STUNT WHICH TURNED VIOLENT IN LAFAYETTE SQUARE IN MILITARY UNIFORM.
I WANT TO ASK YOU FURTHER ABOUT THAT.
ACTUALLY -- THIS IS NOW ABOUT AFGHANISTAN.
HE WAS ASKED BY SENATOR ROGER WICKER OF MISSISSIPPI WHETHER THE CHAOTIC U.S. WITHDRAW FROM AFGHANISTAN HAD DAMAGED U.S.
CREDIBILITY AROUND THE WORLD.
I THOUGHT I HE GAVE CANDID ANSWER.
OUR CREDIBILITY AROUND THE WORLD IS INTENSELY IMPORTANT -- I THINK DAMAGE IS A WORD THAT COULD BE USED.
SITTING NEXT TO HIM WAS DEFENSE SECRETARY ALSO FORMER MILITARY WHO CALLED THE RELATIONSHIP STEADY.
BUT HE USED THE WORD DAMAGING AGAINST HIS CURRENT SITTING PRESIDENT.
HOW DOES THAT SOUND TO YOU?
THAT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A REASONABLE EXPLANATION OF WHAT MIGHT BE HAPPENING.
BUT IT'S REALLY A POLITICAL JUDGMENT AS TO WHETHER OUR CRED ABELITE CREDIBILITY HAS BEEN HARMED AND WHAT ADVERSARIES OR LIES ARE MAKING OF OUR HISTORY.
THE POLITICAL, AS GENERAL MILLEY HAS MADE CLEAR IN NOT ONLY THESE INSTAPSS BUT OTHER INSTANCES OF THE LAST YEAR OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ARE NOT THE BUSINESS OF THE MILITARY.
SO WHAT HE WAS SAYING WAS, YES, IT COULD HAVE DAMAGED IT.
PARTICULARLY WHEN PEOPLE ARE COMPARING THE END OF THE AMERICAN WAR IN VIETNAM WITH THE EVACUATION FROM AFGHANISTAN IN THE FALL OF KABUL TO THE TALIBAN.
SO WITH THOSE IN MIND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE SAYING, WELL, GEE, OUR CREDIBILITY IS GONE BUT I WOULD REMIND PEOPLE THAT, YOU KNOW, 15 YEARS AFTER THE FALL OF SAIGON THE COLD WAR WAS OVER AND SOVIET UNION COLLAPSED.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUTURE WILL BRING OR HOW PEOPLE ARE ASSESSING AMERICAN POWER, AMERICAN STAYING POWER, AND AMERICAN ALLIANCES.
TO THE CHORUS OF CRITICS CALLING HIM TO RESIGN HE HAS SAID POINT BLANK THAT'S A POLITICAL GESTURE AND I'M NOT GOING TO ENGAGE IN POLITICAL GESTURES.
RESIGNING IS A SERIOUS THING, A POLITICAL ACT IF I RESIGN IN PROTEST.
MY JOB IS TO PROVIDE LEGAL ADVICE OR BEST MILITARY ADVICE TO THE PRESIDENT.
THAT'S MY LEGAL REQUIREMENT.
THAT'S WHAT THE LAW IS.
THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH THAT ADVICE.
HE DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS JUST BECAUSE WE'RE GENERALS.
AND IT WOULD BE AN INCREDIBLE ACT OF POLITICAL DEFIANCE FOR A COMMISSIONED OFFICER TO JUST RESIGN BECAUSE MY ADVICE IS NOT TAKEN.
I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SUBSTANCE, MILLEY IN HIS OPINION SAID THE UNITED STATES SHOULD STAY IN AFGHANISTAN LONGER AND KEEP A STEADY STATE OF 2,500 TROOPS.
APPARENTLY PRESIDENT BIDEN DIDN'T FOLLOW HIS ADVICE AND APPARENTLY, ACCORDING TO REPUBLICANS, SAID HE DIDN'T GET THAT ADVICE TO KEEP TROOPS AND TO IGNORE SORT OF A DIA DEADLINE FOR WITHDRAWAL.
DO YOU THINK THAT COULD COME BACK TO HAUNT MILLEY OR BIDEN?
AND SHOULD AS A HISTORIAN YOURSELF, THE U.S. HAVE KEPT A RESIDUAL YOUYOU'LL FORCE RESIDUAL YOU'LL FORCE OF TROOPS THERE
I DON'T THINK IT WILL COME BACK TO BITE BIDEN OR MILLEY, REALLY.
IT WAS CLEAR ALL OVER WHAT THE MILITARY'S POSITION WAS. THERE WAS CONTACT WITH THE CHIEF AND THE WHITE HOUSE.
MY OWN SENSE IS PEOPLE ARE NOT REALIZING THE CHOICE, GIVEN THE AGREEMENT TO LEAVE BACK OVER A YEAR EARLIER, IF THE UNITED STATES HAD STAYED WITH THE 2500 TROOPS, EVEN AS ADVISORS, EVEN TO PROTECT THE EMBASSY, AND BREACH THE DEADLINE THAT HAD BEEN SET, WHICH WE DID ANYWAY, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MAY 1st, THE WAR WOULD HAVE REIGNITED AND THE TALIBAN CLEARLY WOULD HAVE ATTACKED AMERICAN TROOPS.
OKAY.
AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN REALLY EXPANDING THE WAR RATHER THAN EXTRACTING THE UNITED STATES FROM IT.
OKAY.
RICHARD COHEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
AND THAT PARTICULAR POINT WILL BE ENDLESSLY DEBATED.
BECAUSE NOT EVERYBODY AGREES WITH THAT VIEW BUT IT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE.
WE TURN NOW TO EXTRAORDINARY STORY OF SURVIVAL AND FORGIVENESS.
TEN DAYS AFTER 9/11 ONE WHO WAS SHOT AT POINT BLANK RANGE BY A WHITE SUPREMACIST WHILE AT WORK, INSPIRED HIM TO SET UP, WORLD WITHOUT HATE, TO BREAK THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE AND TO SAVE HIS ATTACK ERFROM DEATH ROAD.
THIS CONVERSATION IS PART OF EXPLORING HATE, OUR ONGOING SERIES OF REPORTS ON ANTI-SEMITISM, RACISM AND EXTREMISM.
THANKS, CHRISTIANE.
AND THANKS GUEST FOR TALKING WITH US.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING MY STORY.
APPRECIATE THAT.
WE'VE BEEN TALKING IN RECENT WEEKS AND MONTHS ABOUT HOW THE EVENTS OF 9/11 HAVE HAD SUCH A LONG TAIL IN THIS COUNTRY AND TRULY AROUND THE WORLD. AND FOR YOU PERSONALLY THIS A VERY LONG TAIL. IT CHANGED THE COURSE OF YOUR LIFE, ACTUALLY.
AND I KNOW IT'S NOT EASY TO TALK ABOUT, BUT IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND, I'D JUST LIKE TO ASK WHAT HAPPENED IN THE DAYS AFTER 9/11, IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND SHARING THAT WITH US.
I WAS WORKING IN MY GAS STATION IN DALLAS, TEXAS.
BEFORE 9/11 I WAS PRETTY WELCOMED BY MY CUSTOMERS IN THE GAS STATIONS, BY FELLOW AMERICANS, BUT AFTER 9/11 I REALIZED THAT ALL THOSE SMILING, FRIENDLY FACES CHANGED AND SUDDENLY THEY LOOKED AT ME IN SUCH A WAY THAT I DID SOMETHING HORRIBLE, I COMMITTED A CRIME.
IT DID NOT TAKE THAT LONG TO REALIZE MY LIFE IN AMERICA WOULD NEVER BE THE SAME.
IT WAS SEPTEMBER 21st, FRIDAY, BUSINESS WAS PRETTY SLOW, AND AROUND NOON, A MAN WALKED IN WEARING A BANDANA, SUN GLASSES, BASEBALL CAP, HOLDING A DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN AND HE ASKED ME WHERE ARE YOU FROM?
AND BEFORE I COULD SAY ANYTHING MORE THAN, EXCUSE ME?
HE PULLED THE TRIGGER FROM POINT BLANK RANGE.
WHAT'S THE NEXT THING YOU REMEMBER?
THE NEXT THING I REMEMBER THAT I WAS ABOUT TO DIE.
AND WHEN I LOOKED DOWN AND SAW BLOOD POURING LIKE AN OPEN FAUCET, I THOUGHT MY TIME WAS UP, FRANTICALLY AND INSTINCTIVELY PUT BOTH HANDS ON MY HEAD THINKING I HAVE TO KEEP MY BRAIN FROM SPILLING OUT AND REMEMBER SCREAMING MOM AT THE TOP OF MY VOICE.
I LOOKED AND SAW THE GUNMAN STILL STANDING THERE AND MY MILITARY INSTINCT KICKED IN RIGHT THERE, I THOUGHT I SHOULD APPEAR TO BE DIEING AND FELL TO THE FLOOR IN MY OWN POOL OF BLOOD AND LAID THERE FOR A FEW SECONDS.
YOU THANKFULLY SURVIVED BUT AT GREAT COST, YOU WERE IN GREAT PAIN, YOUR INJURIES WERE QUITE SERIOUS.
DO YOU MIND SHARING WHAT YOUR RECOVERY WAS LIKE.
WELL, AS A RESULT OF THE SHOOTING I UNDER WENT SEVERAL EYE SURGERIES, UNFORTUNATELY THOUGH I LOST VISION IN ONE EYE.
I HAD BETTER THAN PERFECT VISION, 20/10 AS I WAS IN THE AIR FORCE IN BANGLADESH, AND UNFORTUNATELY LOST VISION IN ONE HIGH.
MY FACE WAS AND REMAINS PEPPERED WITH MORE THAN THREE DOZEN BULLET FRAGMENTS.
I LOST MY HOME, MY JOB, MY SENSE OF SECURITY AND MY FIANC ÉE.
BUT GAINED MORE THAN $60,000 IN MEDICAL BILLS.
I REACHED OUT TO THE RED CROSS FOR HELP AND WAS TOLD THAT I WAS QUALIFIED ONLY ONE WEEK'S WORTH OF GROCERIES.
HMM.
WHY?
BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT A CITIZEN OR WHY?
THERE WAS NO SUPPORT STRUCTURE.
NGO'S OR ADVOCACY GROUPS HELPING VICTIMS LIKE ME.
BUT 9/11 COMMISSION, FOR EXAMPLE, EXPLICITLY INSURES VICTIMS AND FAMILIES OF HATE CRIMES FROM THE EVENT DO NOT QUALIFY FOR SUPPORT UNDER THEIR DEFINITION.
I NOT ONLY PHYSICALLY FELT LIKE WOUNDED SOLDIER IN A FOREIGN LAND, I FELT DISCARDED, PASSED AWAY AND LESS THAN HUMAN.
HOW DID YOU SURVIVE THE DISAPPOINTMENT THAT THE SENSE OF BEING DISCARDED AND DEMEANED, NOT TO MENTION THE FACT YOU WERE TARGETED BECAUSE OF YOUR RACE, YOUR ETHNICITY, AND THE FACT THAT A TERRORIST EVENT YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH.
I MEAN, YOU CAME TO THIS COUNTRY SEEKING REFUGE AND A BETTER LIFE AND YOU WERE ALMOST KILLED FOR THAT, HOW DID YOU SURVIVE THAT?
AFTER THIS INCIDENT I ASKED MY -- KEPT MYSELF IN THE HOUSE, DIDN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE GOING OUTSIDE, SO MUCH TRAUMA, ANXIETY, FEAR OF BEING SHOT AGAIN, FEAR OF GETTING KILLED AGAIN, IT REALLY PARALYZED ME.
BUT THEN I REALIZED THAT I NEED TO GO OUT AND FACE MY FEAR HEAD ON AND GET BACK TO A NORMAL LIFE.
I REMEMBER I FORGIVE MY ATTACKER AFTER I GOT MY LIFE BACK.
MY FAITH AND UPBRINGING INSPIRED ME TO DO THAT.
I FOCUSED ON REBUILDING MY LIFE SLOWLY GETTING INTO RESTAURANT WORKING AS A WAITER.
IT HELPED ME TO OVERCOME MY FEAR OF PEOPLE AS I STARTED MEETING PEOPLE IN THE RESTAURANT AND ALSO STARTED GOING TO SCHOOL AND AT THE TIME MANY KIND AND CARING AMERICANS CAME FORWARD, LIKE A DOCTOR WHO TREATED ME, HE WAS A CHRISTIAN DOCTOR, HE DIDN'T ASK FOR ANY UP FRONT PAYMENT, HE BEGAN TO TREATMENT ME AND THEN A MUSLIM MAN FROM THE LOCAL MOSQUE GAVE ME SCHOLARSHIP AND ONE GAVE ME HIS EXTRA CAR.
SO, YES.
ONE AMERICAN TRIED TO KILL ME BUT AFTER THAT MANY KIND AND LOVING AND CARING AMERICANS CAME FORWARD TO HELP REDO MY LIFE.
LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE, THE MAN WHO SHOT YOU, MARK STRAWMAN ALSO KILLED TWO OTHER PEOPLE IN THE SAME TIME SPAN IN WHICH HE ATTACKED YOU.
HE MADE IT CLEAR THIS WAS REVENGE FOR 9/11.
HE DIDN'T KNOW YOU.
HE DIDN'T KNOW THE OTHER PEOPLE THAT HE ATTACKED AS WELL.
SO, HOW DID YOU PROCESS ALL THAT?
LIKE, HOW DID YOU PROCESS THAT HE TRIED TO KILL YOU, NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING YOU HAD DONE BUT BECAUSE OF WHO YOU ARE, WHAT YOU ARE, HOW DID YOU THINK THAT THROUGH?
WELL, BEFORE 9/11 I WAS TOTALLY UNKNOWN TO MY ATTACKER BUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER I WAS LABELLED AS A THREAT, A TERRORIST, EXTREMIST LIVING IN THE SOCIETY, BECAUSE OF THE RACE AND ISLAMIC FAITH.
AFTER MARK WAS ARRESTED HE EXACTLY SAY THAT REPEATEDLY WATCHING THE SAME FOOT FOOTAGE OF THE TWIN TOWERS BEING HIT BY PLANES, LISTENING TO THE LEADERS AND NEWS COMMENTATORS, I SNAPPED.
I TOOK UP ARMS TO KILL SOME MUSLIMS WHO DID THIS HEINOUS CRIME TO OUR COUNTRY.
AND AFTER HIS ARREST HE ALSO SAID THAT WHAT HE DID MOST AMERICANS WANTED TO DO THE SAME, THEY JUST DIDN'T HAVE THE GUTS AND HE QUIETLY WAS A TRUE AMERICAN, PATRIOT.
WHAT I CONSIDERED EVERYTHING, THE ENVIRONMENT AFTER THE EVENT, I REALIZED HE WAS A VICTIM OF ISLAMICPHOBIA.
HE HAD NEVER MET A MUSLIM AND HAD NOT KNOWN ABOUT ISLAM BUT SINCE HE WAS FIXATED TO THE NEWS AGAIN AND AGAIN HE SNAPPED.
SO PURELY IT MOTIVATED HIM.
HIS DESTRUCTIVE ANGER AND IGNORANCE AND FEAR OF MUSLIM LED HIM TO DO THIS HEINOUS CRIME AND SO NOW BY EXECUTING HIM THE ISLAMICPHOBIA, ANTI-MUSLIM SENTIMENT, AND THE FEAR AND ALL THE INTOLERANCE IN OUR SOCIETY WOULDN'T GO WITH ME AND ALL THE PAIN AND SUFFERING, I AND OTHER VICTIMS AND LOVED ONES WENT THROUGH, WILL NOT BE ERASED.
BUT WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO TURN THIS NEGATIVE INSTANCE INTO SOMETHING POSITIVE.
YOU FAMOUSLY BEGAN A CAMPAIGN TO SPARE THE LIFE OF YOUR ATTACKER. HOW DID THAT START?
WELL I LEARNED ABOUT THE POWER, BEAUTY AND BENEFIT OF FORGIVENESS AT A VERY YOUNG AGE, WAS FROM MY PARENTS AND MY ISLAMIC FAITH.
AND FOR GIVING MY ATTACKER WAS A MULTIPLE-STEP PROCESS.
BECAUSE WHEN WE ARE HURT WE ARE NOT LIKELY TO RESPOND WITH MERCY AND UNDERSTANDING.
OUR INITIAL INSTINCT IS TO RECOIL, YOU KNOW, AND SELF-PROTECT.
SO ONCE I GOT MY LIFE BACK I THOUGHT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT MY PARENTS TAUGHT ME.
AND I REALIZED BY EXECUTING HIM WE WERE SIMPLY LOSING HUMAN LIFE WITHOUT DEALING WITH THE ROOT CAUSE.
I BEGAN TO SEE HIM AS A HUMAN BEING LIKE ME, NOT JUST AS A KILLER.
I SAW HIM AS TOO I SUFFERED TERRIBLY BUT I DID NOT SEE VALUE IN HIM SUFFERING AS WELL.
AND I REMEMBER WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE ON THE BRINK THE DEATH, BEGGING TO GOD FOR A SECOND CHANCE.
I LEARNED ABOUT THE VERSE IN THE HOLY KORAN CHAPTER 5, VERSE 32 WHERE IT SAYS THAT SAVING A LIFE IS LIKE SAVING THE ENTIRE MAN KIND AND TAKING A LIFE IS LIKE TAKING THE LIFE OF ENTIRE MANKIND.
AND I WAS EXTREMELY CONVINCED I NEEDED TO GO THE EXTRA MILE TO SAVE THE LIFE OF THE MAN.
DID YOUR ATTACKER KNOW YOU WERE FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE?
WHEN WE LAUNCHED OUR GLOBAL CAMPAIGN TO SAVE THE LIFE OF MY ATTACKER HE HEARD FROM HIS LAWYER THAT'S ONE OF HIS VICTIMS WAS RUNNING A CAMPAIGN TO SAVE HIS LIFE.
AND HE TOLD HIS LAWYER, I DO NOT BELIEVE IT, I NEVER SAID SORRY, I NEVER APOLOGIZED AND DESTROYED THEIR LIVES, ESPECIALLY HIS LIFE, AND NOW HE FORGAVE ME AND IS RUNNING A CAMPAIGN TO SAVE MY LIFE, HE WAS RELEASED TO TEARS, HE SAID I DON'T DESERVE THAT, I'M SOMEONE UNFORGIVABLE.
HE WROTE A LETTER TO ME FROM DEATH ROW AND IN ONE PARAGRAPH THIS IS WHAT HE SAID, THAT MY STEPFATHER TAUGHT ME SOME LESSONS THAT I SHOULD HAVE NEVER LEARNED.
IT HAS TAKEN ME TOO LONG TO UNLEARN SOME OF THEM.
AND I'M STILL WORKING ON SOME OF THEM.
I DON'T KNOW WHO YOUR PARENTS WERE BUT IT IS OBVIOUS THEY ARE WONDERFUL PEOPLE TO LEAD YOU TO ACT THIS WAY TO SOMEONE YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO HATE.
THE ENTIRE MUSLIM COMMUNITY CONDEMN THEM AND HE CALLED ME BROTHER.
AND I NEVER IMAGINED THIS PERSON WOULD CALL ME ONE DAY, BROTHER, AND HE WOULD LOVE ME. SO WHEN HE LEARNED ABOUT OUR CAMPAIGN HE WENT TO TREMENDOUS TRANSFORMATION AND TALKED ABOUT WORLD PEACE, MERCY, JUSTICE, PEACE, HATE CRIMES AND HOW HE WAS WRONG, WHAT WENT WRONG IN HIS LIFE, AND HOW HE ENDED UP KILLING PEOPLE AND FINDING HIMSELF IN THE WORSE POSSIBLE PLACE ON EARTH, DEATH ROW.
I -- I THINK THIS STORY IS WELL-KNOWN ENOUGH NOW THAT I CAN SHARE THAT YOU DID NOT SUCCEED IN YOUR QUEST TO SPARE HIS LIFE.
WELL, IT'S TRUE, WE DID NOT SUCCEED, IN THE END LOVE WON.
HE WAS IN PEACE BEFORE HE WAS EXECUTED.
HE FOUND JESUS CHRIST, IN HIS HEART, AND HUMANITY AND URGED ME TO CONTINUE HUMAN RIGHTS WORK TO HELP PEOPLE LIKE HIM AND THOSE STRUGGLING WITH PAIN, WITH ANGER, WITH TRAUMA.
YOU KNOW, AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW THE NEW INFORMATION, THE FBI REPORTS ANNUALLY ON HATE CRIMES, YOU ARE UNDERSTOOD AS A VICTIM OF A HATE CRIME.
YOU WERE ATTACKED, NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING PERSONALLY YOU DID OR ANY INTERPERSONAL INTERACTION BUT BECAUSE OF YOUR -- BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU ARE.
AND AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, THE FBI HAS REPORTED HATE CRIMES IN THE UNITED STATES ARE AT THEIR HIGHEST LEVEL IN MORE THAN TEN YEARS.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?
HATE CRIME, YOU KNOW ROSE AFTER 9/11 AND CAME BACK IN 2008 AND 2012 DURING THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN OF PRESIDENT OBAMA AND CAME BACK IN 2010 AND 2020 BECAUSE HATE BECAME NORMALIZED.
MISINFORMATION.
IN OUR DAILY LIVES, IN A ENVIRONMENT WE'RE DESENSITIZED THERE'S LACK OF EMPATHY AS WELL.
DON'T WANT TO TAKE TIME TO LEARN ABOUT THE OTHER, WE'RE AFRAID OF THE OTHER, INSTEAD OF TAKING TIME TO GET TO KNOW THEM.
THERE'S HUGE DISCONNECT IN OUR SOCIETY, LACK OF EMPATHY AND UNDERSTANDING AND SAME TIME SOME LEADERS ARE ADVANCING YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GAINING POLITICALLY AND PERSONALLY BY SPREADING MISINFORMATION.
LIES.
AND TOLERANCE AND FEAR.
SO I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU WHAT STEPS YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE PEOPLE TAKE. ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE NOT UNDER GONE AN EXPERIENCE AS REMARKABLE AS YOURS.
WHAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT WHY THEY SHOULD REACH OUT THE WAY YOU HAVE.
THE FIRST THING WE ALL SHOULD DO IS KEEP THE DOOR, WINDOW OPEN FOR MORE DIALOGUE AND DISCUSSION.
I'D LOVE TO GIVE A QUICK EXAMPLE.
MORE RECENTLY I WAS INVITED TO A ANTI-ISLAMIC GROUP FOR A ONE-HOUR CONVERSATION.
THAT LASTED ABOUT FIVE.
AND DURING THE FIVE-HOUR CONVERSATION, SOME TIMES HONESTLY BOILED MY BLOOD.
I WAS EXTREMELY DISRESPECTED.
I WAS DEMONIZED.
YOU KNOW.
I WAS INSULTED.
BUT WANTED TO CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION BECAUSE I WANTED TO HEAR FROM HIM WHY HE HATES MUSLIMS SO MUCH AND WHY HE FORMED THIS ARMED HATE GROUP AGAINST ISLAM.
IT HELPED.
HE OPENED UP.
AS I SAID, I SHARED A LOT OF FACTS AND INFORMATION ABOUT ISLAM AND MUSLIM.
AND THIS CONVERSATION HELPED HIM LEARN SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAT HE NEVER BEFORE LEARNED.
SO I TELL PEOPLE, PLEASE FIND WAYS TO CONNECT WITH OTHERS, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE UNLIKE YOU AND TRY TO TAKE TIME TO LEARN FROM ONE ANOTHER.
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN MY CASE.
MY CASE AS WELL, WHEN MY ATTACKER DID NOT KNOW ME, HE HATED ME BUT WHEN HE LEARNED ABOUT ME AND EDUCATED HIMSELF ABOUT MUSLIMS AND ISLAMS, HE CALLED ME BROTHER AND SAID HE LOVED ME.
WELL THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US AND SHARING YOUR STORY WITH US.
IT'S MY GREAT PLEASURE AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING MY STORY.
> AND THEY DO SAY, OF COURSE, THAT FORGIVENESS TRULY MAKES YOU FREE.
FINALLY TONIGHT WE'LL FOCUS ON THE ARTIST CYSTO WHO BELIEVED TO HIS DIEING BREATH AND LAST WORK FUNDAMENTALLY IN FREEDOM.
VISITORS TO CITY OF LIGHT HAVE BEEN TREATED TO A GLORIOUS SIGHT OVER THE PAST 11 DAYS, THE LAND MARK COMPLETELY COVERED IN FLOATING FABRIC, THE BRAIN CHILD OF THE LATE ARTIST CHRISTO WHO CHANGED SO MUCH THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT AND REACT TO ART.
NOW A CLOSER LOOK.
Reporter: IT TOOK 90 CLIMBERS AND 25,000 SQUARE METERS OF SILVERY BLUE FABRIC TO TRANSFORM THE FAMOUS WAR MEMORIAL INTO A WORK OF ART.
IT IS INCREDIBLE.
YOU HAVE NONSTOP, YOU CAN'T BELIEVE IT, THE FABRIC ABOVE YOU IS LIKE MOVING, LIVING PERSON.
BECAUSE ALL OF THAT WOULD BE WRAPPED.
THAT'S THE VISION OF THE LATE ARTIST CHRISTO AS HE SAID IN ONE OF HIS LAST INTERVIEWS.
CONCEIVED WHILE IN PARIS 20 YEARS AGO THE SUCCESS WAS IN PARIS IN THE PAST, THE KEY TO THE CONSTRUCTION, ENGINEERS POURED OVER DRAWINGS OF THE 50-METER HIGH MONUMENT STUDYING WHERE TO DRILL INTO THE 1970s STRUCTURE.
SOME STATUES HAVE SWINGS AND SWORDS AND TRUMPETS AND BUILT CAGES TO PROTECT THEM FROM THE FABRIC, THE CLIMBERS AND CONDUCTION SIDE WORK.
USING TEXTILES TO TRANSFORM HISTORIC MONUMENTS AND LANDMARKS CAN WHAT MADE HE AND HIS WIFE FAMOUS.
SMALL ISLANDS IN MIAMI COVERED IN TUTU IN PINK AND DRAPED IN GOLDEN SAND STONE AND IN BERLIN COVERED IN SILVERY GRAY.
THE BILL FOR WRAPPING THE ARC, MORE THAN $16 MILLION FUNDED THROUGH THE SAINT OF CHRISTO ART.
THERE IS ENGINEERING.
THERE IS ART.
THERE IS POETICS IN THIS KIND OF CONNECTS TO EVERYBODY.
IT'S NOT REALLY THE KIND OF ART THAT I LIKE, BUT IT'S ONLY FOR THREE WEEKS, SO I'M OKAY WITH IT.
WHAT I DIDN'T EXPECT IS AT THE SAME TIME SO MONUMENTAL AND SO SENSUAL.
LIKE ALL HIS ARTWORK WILL BE SHORT LIVED, JUST 16 DAYS.
YOU CANNOT OWN IT.
CANNOT BUY IT.
IT WILL BE GONE.
WILL NEVER SEE IT AGAIN.
THAT'S THE MAGNIFICENT FORCE OF THE PROGRESS IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT WILL STAY.
THE NATURE OF THE WORK ALL THE MORE POIGNANT FOR BEING BROUGHT TO LIFE AFTER HIS DEATH.
THANK YOU FOR THAT REPORTING THERE.
AND WHEN I GOT TO SPEAK TO CHRISTO IN 2018 WHEN HE HAD A BIG PROBLEM HERE IN LONDON HE HINTED AT THESE NEXT PROJECTS.
THERE'S TWO NEW PROJECTS I CANNOT TELL.
COME ON, TELL ME.
I CANNOT TELL YOU.
COME ON.
NO, NO, IT'S SO EXCITING.
BREAKING ON CNN YOU KNOW, BREAKING NEWS.
WE'LL TELL YOU SOON, WE'LL HAVE IT BREAKING.
SO, WAS IT THE ARC DETREEF HE WAS TRYING TO TELL ME ABOUT OR NOT TELL ME ABOUT?
JOINING ME NOW FROM PARIS, WAS CHRISTO'S NEPHEW WHO HELPED TO BRING THIS TO LIFE.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
OF COURSE I DO NEED TO ASK YOU WHEN I ASKED HIM THAT QUESTION WAS HE TRYING TO TELL ME OR WAS HE NOT?
WAS THAT THE PROJECT?
YEAH.
THAT WAS THE PROJECT WE WERE WORKING ON SINCE 2017.
OH, MY GOSH.
BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE THE PERMISSION YET OFFICIALLY SO WE DIDN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.
IT'S AMAZING TO TALK ABOUT, THE SUN IS SETTING, YOU SEE THE ART RIGHT BEHIND YOU.
WHAT'S IT MAKE YOU FEEL.
CHRISTO IS NO LONGER HERE, HE DIED LAST YEAR AND HIS COLLABORATOR AND LOVE DIED IN 2009.
WHAT'S IT SPARK IN YOU TO BE ABLE TO BRING IT TO LIFE.
IT'S AN AMAZING FEELING BECAUSE WE REALLY HOPE TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THE DRAWINGS AND THEY'RE HERE, YOU REALLY FEEL THE SPIRIT OF ALL OF THE PREVIOUS PROJECTS, AS THEY'RE HERE THEY'RE NOT.
YEAH, WHY THIS PROJECT SPECIFICALLY?
I MEAN, HE'S DONE SO MANY, LANDMARKS ALL OVER FROM THE UNITED STATES, ACROSS EUROPE, JAPAN, WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THE L'ARC DE TRIOMPHE?
WELL, THE ARC ITSELF CARRIES SO MUCH MEANING TO THE PEOPLE HERE AND AROUND THE WORLD, AND FROM BEING BUILT BY NAPOLEON IN 1806 TO THEN HAVING THE GRAVE OF THE UNKNOWN SOLDIER AND ETERNAL FLAME BUILT IN THE EARLY '20s SO NO ARMY COULD MARCH UNDER IT AGAIN, TO PEOPLE, THE FRENCH CELEBRATING SPORTS VICTORIES TO HAVING PROTESTS HERE AS WELL.
IT HAS SO MUCH MEANING IN THE MONUMENT AND NOW BEING A WORK OF ART FOR 16 DAYS, THE BOTH OF THEM LOVED SO MUCH THE FACT THAT YOU CAN THE PEOPLE HAVE ALL THESE INTERPRETATIONS AND ALL THIS WEIGHT THAT THE L'ARC DE TRIOMPHE CARRIES IN ITSELF ALREADY WITH DIFFERENT MEANINGS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
AND I TALKED ABOUT HOW HE WAS DEDICATED TO THE IDEA OF FREEDOM WHEN I SPOKE TO HIM HE SAID HE NEVER TOOK A COMMISSION.
ALL OF THE PROJECTS, THE MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR PROJECTS ARE FUNDED BY SELLING HIS OWN ARTWORK.
HE HAD BEEN A REFUGEE IN STATE FOR 17 YEARS AFTER LIVING IN COMMUNIST BULGARIA.
THIS IS WHAT HE SAID TO ME ABOUT HIS REAL PASSION FOR THIS INCREDIBLE RIGHT.
STILL TODAY I WILL NOT MOVE ONE MILLIMETER OF MY FEED OM.
THIS IS WHY EVERYTHING I DO IS MYSELF.
NOBODY ASKED US TO WRAP THE GATE OR DO OTHER ART.
FOR THAT, YOU NEED TO HAVE TOTAL FREEDOM.
SO YOU'RE PRETTY HARD-LINED WHEN IT COMES TO FREEDOM.
YOU WON'T COMPROMISE.
NOT, AT ALL.
TALK TO ME ABOUT WHAT FREEDOM MEANT TO HIM AND HOW HE DID EVERYTHING TO MAINTAIN THAT.
WELL, HE LEFT THE COMMUNIST BULGARIA IN 1956 WHICH WAS A VERY HARD TIME OF COMMUNISM IN BULGARIA.
HE REALLY NEVER LOOKED BACK.
HE ALWAYS LOOKED FORWARD IN HIS STRIVE AND CHASE OF FREEDOM AND TO HAVE THE EXPRESSION.
BECAUSE EARLY, WHEN HE WAS STUDYING IN THE ACADEMY HE NEVER GRADUATED, HE WAS THREE YEARS THERE, HE WAS BEING CRITICIZED FOR -- HE MADE ONE PAINTING AND THE SKY WAS TOO LOW AND LOOKED LIKE IT WAS OPRESSING THE FARMERS AND THERE WAS A BIG DISCUSSION ABOUT IT.
THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT HE REALLY DESPISED THE WEIGHT OF THE SYSTEM OVER HIM.
THE STRIVE FOR FREEDOM WAS INHERENT TO HIM ALL HIS LIFE.
IT WAS SOMETHING HE NEVER GAVE UP ON.
THAT'S WHY THERE'S NO SPONSORS, NO GRANTS, IT WAS JUST BECAUSE THE ARTIST WISHED TO DO SOMETHING AND HAD ALL OF THIS ABSOLUTE DESIRE TO HAVE THIS SCREEN OF FREEDOM THROUGH THEIR WORK.
AND TO DO THE IMPOSSIBLE THINGS THAT THEY DID.
AND THERE WILL BE ONE MORE PROJECT FROM THE GRAVE, SO TO SPEAK, I PRESUME YOU WILL OVERSEE THE MASTABA HE PUT INTO THE SERPATINE IN LONDON WILL BE TRANSFERRED TO THE ABU DHABI DESERT AND YOU SAID IT WILL BE AS BIG OR BIGGER THAN THE GREAT PYRAMID OF GIZA TELL ME QUICKLY ABOUT IT IN THE LAST MINUTE, IS A MEMORIAL TO THEM.
NO THIS IS A PROJECT THAT HE WANTED TO DO IN 1977.
THEY ARRIVED IN ABU DHABI IN '79.
IT IS A LITTLE TALLER THAN THE PYRAMID OF GIZ BUT BECAUSE IT'S TRAPEZOID SHAPE YOU CAN ACTUALLY BY VOLUME FIT TWO PYRAMIDS INSIDE.
IT WAS HIS WISH TO CONTINUE THIS PROJECT AND I'M DETERMINED AND CONVICTED AND I WILL GO IF IT TAKES THREE YEARS MAYBE FIVE MAYBE 15, BUT I'M CONVINCED WE'LL EVENTUALLY GET IT DONE.
WELL, VLADMIR THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND KEEPING HIS WORK ALIVE.
THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.
REMEMBER YOU CAN ALWAYS FOLLOW ME ON THE SHOW AND ON TWITTER.
THANKS FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' ON PBS.
DO JOIN US TOMORROW NIGHT.
Announcer: 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, -- AND BY BERNARD AND DENISE PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.