The Inside Story of the Race for a COVID Vaccine

> STAYING WITH COVID, NEXT TO A JOURNALIST SHINE MORGUE LIGHT ON WHAT WENT RIGHT DURING THE PANDEMIC.

GREG ZUCKERMAN IS AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER WITH 'THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.'

HIS NEW BOOK 'A SHOT TO SAVE THE WORLD' TAKES US BEHIND THE SCENES OF YEARS OF GROUNDBREAKING RESEARCH THAT PAVED THE WAY FOR THE mRNA VACCINES WE HAVE TODAY.

HERE HE IS TALKING WITH WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE LITTLE KNOWN SCIENTISTS WHO CREATED THEM.

THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

GREAT TO BE HERE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF THIS VACCINE BECAUSE IT HAPPENED SO FAST.

IT WAS THIS GREAT MIRACLE, AS YOU DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK.

WHEN YOU SAW HOW FAST IT HAPPENED, DID THAT REASSURE YOU OR DOES THAT MAKE YOU MORE SCARED ABOUT THIS VACCINE?

ONE OF THE GOALS OF MY BOOK IS TO SHOW THE EVOLUTION OF THE VACCINE APPROACHES, mRNA AND THE OTHERS I WRITE ABOUT, IS ACTUALLY A LONG AND WINDING ROAD GOING BACK DECADES.

IN SOME WAYS IT'S VERY REASSURING, THE INVESTORS, EXECUTIVES SPENT YEARS AND YEARS WORKING AND IMPROVING AND HONING THESE APPROACHES.

IT WAS NOT AN OVERNIGHT SUCCESS AS ONE MIGHT THINK.

THEY WEREN'T SURE THESE APPROACHES WERE READY ON THE EVE OF THIS GREAT PANDEMIC.

THEY HAD AN INKLING, A GOOD IDEA.

TURNS OUT THEY WERE RIGHT.

IN SOME WAYS, IT'S REASSURING THAT IT TOOK DECADES ACTUALLY, NOT MONTHS OR EVEN WEEKS TO GET THESE VACCINES REALLY DONE.

THE MESmRNA, PFIZER AND MODE, THOSE ARE THE BIG BREAKTHROUGHS.

TELL ME ABOUT THE EARLY BREAKTHROUGHS, INCLUDING AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA, THAT HELPED PEOPLE FIGURE OUT, HOW DO YOU USE A MESSENGER STRAND TO BUILD A LOW PROTEIN IN OUR BODY THAT WILL ACT AS A VACCINE?

SURE.

mRNA IS A MOLECULE.

WE HAVE IT.

IT SENDS A MESSAGE TO OUR CELLS TO CREATE PROTEINS WHICH WE DEPEND ON.

WE LIVE THANKS TO THE PROTEINS.

IT MADE SENSE TO SAY, WHAT IF IN OUR LAB WE COULD CREATE SOME OF THESE MOLECULES?

GOING BACK DECADES -- I GO BACK TO 1990 WHERE THERE'S A REALLY INTERESTING AND GROUNDBREAKING PIONEERING SCIENTIST NAMED JOHN WOLF IN WISCONSIN WHO DOES EARLY WORK ON CREATING THESE mRNA MOLECULES IN THE LAB.

IT'S BEEN THE HOLY GRAIL THING AMONG SOME IN THE WORLD OF SCIENCE, WHAT IF WE CREATED THE mRNA MOLECULES TO CREATE SOMETHING LIKE -- YOU COULD SEE IT AS YOUR OWN FACTORY, YOUR OWN BODY BECOMES THE FACTORY, CREATING ANY KIND OF MEDICINE OR VACCINE THAT YOU WANT.

THEY SPENT A LONG TIME ON IT.

AS YOU SUGGEST, FIRST THERE WAS THIS JOHN WOLF.

HE PASSED THE BATON TO A GROUP AT DUKE.

THEY PASSED IT TO A COUPLE OF RESEARCHERS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA.

THEY DID GROUNDBREAKING STUFF.

THEIR WORK WAS FOCUSED ON GETTING THIS mRNA INTO THE CELL AND NOT HAVING THE CELL, THE BODY'S IMMUNE SYSTEM FIGHT IT OFF.

THAT WAS A PROCESS THAT REALLY TOOK YEARS.

THEY DID A LOT OF IMPRESSIVE WORK.

A LOT OF THE GOAL OF MY BOOK IS TO HIGHLIGHT SOME OF THE BREAKTHROUGH REALLY IMPRESSIVE CRUCIAL WORK DONE BY SCIENTISTS OVER THE YEARS.

IT TOOK YEARS AND YEARS TO DO IT.

NOW mRNA IS ON THE THRESHOLD OF SAVING THE WORLD IN TERMS OF THIS VIRUS, BUT ALSO POTENTIALLY TAKING ON OTHER DISEASES.

YOU MENTIONED THE RESEARCHERS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA WHO DO GROUNDBREAKING WORK TO GET THE mRNA INTO OUR CELLS AND NOT BE REJECTED.

ONE OF THE CONTROVERSIAL THINGS IS THEY DO NOT LICENSE THEIR PATENT TO MODERNA.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A COMPANY LIKE MODERNA WANTS TO MAKE mRNA AND THEY CAN'T GET A PATENT?

IT'S A REAL CHALLENGE.

IT WAS A PROBLEM FOR MODERNA.

THEY HAVE A GREAT IDEA.

THEY ARE IN CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS.

THEY WANT TO USE THE mRNA MOLECULES TO CREATE THEM TO CREATE VACCINES.

THEY CAN'T GET THE LICENSE.

UPENN LICENSED IT AND NOTHING CAME OF THAT.

THEY WERE STUCK.

IT CAME DOWN TO A YOUNG SCIENTIST, ONE OF THE FIRST HIRES AT MODERNA.

THE GUY WHO DOESN'T GET MUCH CREDIT.

HE IS LABORING ALONE IN THE BOWELS OF A LABORATORY IN CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS.

HE FIGURES OUT HIS OWN WAY TO MODIFY THE CHEMICAL BASIS OF mRNA TO MAKE IT SUCH THAT THE IMMUNE SYSTEM DOESN'T REJECT IT.

IT'S GROUNDBREAKING, BREAKTHROUGH STUFF.

HE HAS NEVER GOTTEN CREDIT.

HE SHOULD GET A LOT OF THANKS.

YOUR BOOK IS FILLED WITH COLORFUL CHARACTERS.

ONE OF THE MINOR CHARACTERS I LOVE WAS HELPING MODERNA MANUFACTURE THE VACCINE.

WE SEE HIM AT THE BEGINNING STOCKPILING TOILET PAPER.

AT THE END OF THE BOOK CRYING.

TELL ME ABOUT HIM.

YEAH.

A FASCINATING GUY.

INTERESTING, GOOD GUY.

HE RUNS MANUFACTURING AT MODERNA.

IN JANUARY OF 2020, HE STARTED GETTING NERVOUS.

THINGS HE READ AND INSTINCT.

HE HAD BEEN AROUND THE INDUSTRY A LITTLE WHILE.

HE IS NOT A SCIENTIST BUT IN THE DRUG BUSINESS.

HE STARTED TELLING HIS PERSONAL FAMILY IN BOSTON, WE HAVE TO START GETTING NERVOUS, WE HAVE TO START STOCKING UP.

HE STARTED BUYING TOILET PAPER, PAPER TOWELS.

HE BOUGHT A THIRD REFRIGERATOR.

HIS FAMILY THOUGHT HE WAS INSANE.

THEY THOUGHT HE WAS NUTS.

THEY STARTED LAUGHING AT HIM.

ARE YOU CRAZY?

WE HAVE INSTINCTS.

TL THERE'S SOMETHING IN CHINA.

THEY PETERED OUT.

WON'T IT DO THE SAME THING?

THEY WERE MAKING FUN OF HIM.

SADLY, HIS OWN MOTHER-IN-LAW PASSED AWAY OF COVID ABOUT A MONTH LATER.

THEY LIKE THE REST OF US, HIS FAMILY, STARTED REALIZING THE SERIOUSNESS OF THIS.

HIS HEART IS INVOLVED IN THIS THING.

FRANKLY, THE PEOPLE AT MA ODERN THEY OWN SHARES.

THESE PEOPLE PUT THEIR HEART AND SOUL INTO CREATING VACCINES TO SAVE THE WORLD.

FOR AS MANY PEOPLE AS THEY HAVE SAVED, THEY BEAT THEMSELVES UP ABOUT WHO THEY SHOULD HAVE -- HOW MANY MORE VACCINES THEY COULD HAVE MADE, HOW MUCH MORE THEY COULD HAVE DONE.

ON ONE HAND, HE WAS VERY PROUD OF WHAT HE HAD DONE.

HE SHOULD BE.

HE FEELS HE COULD HAVE DONE MORE.

IN SOME WAYS, THEY ARE EMOTIONALLY SHOT, SOME OF THE PEOPLE INTERNALLY.

THEY ARE TRYING TO HEAL IN SOME WAY FS FROM THIS PAST YEAR.

THEY WERE A SMALL COMPANY.

NOW THEY ARE A HOUSEHOLD NAME.

THEY WEREN'T.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT.

I THINK TO SHARE SOME APPRECIATION FOR SOME OF THE WORK THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE DONE, INCLUDING JUAN.

ONE OF THE HEROES IN YOUR BOOK IS THE GUY AT VIONTECH WHO CREATES THE PFIZER VACCINE.

THEY ARE DISTRIBUTING IT.

HE IS AN INTERESTING CHARACTER.

TELL ME HOW HE SORT OF BECOMES THE WINNER IN FIRST GETTING mRNA TO WORK AS A VACCINE.

A LIFE LONG CANCER RESEARCHER.

NOT REALLY FOCUSED NECESSARILY ON DISEASES LIKE COVID, THAT THING.

HE ALWAYS BELIEVED IN THE BODY'S IMMUNE SYSTEM.

HE BELIEVED THERE ARE WAYS TO WAKE IT UP, TO TEACH IT.

THAT MAYBE WE HAVEN'T APPROACHED IN THE PAST.

HE DEDICATED HIS LIFE TO THAT.

HE STARTED A COMPANY.

THEY WEREN'T MAKING THAT MUCH PROGRESS ON THE SURFACE, TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

INTERNALLY, THEY WERE GETTING MORE EXCITED ABOUT THEIR APPROACHES, INCLUDING mRNA.

HE IS AN INTERESTING GUY.

HE LIVES WITH HIS WIFE WHO CO-RUNS THE COMPANY, WHO IS ALSO A CANCER RESEARCHER.

THEY LIVE IN AN APARTMENT IN GERMANY.

HE DOESN'T OWN A CAR OR TELEVISION.

HE GOES ON VACATIONS AND LUGS COMPUTERS WITH HIM AND SCIENTIFIC PAPERS AND BRINGS THEM TO THE POOL.

HE DEMANDS THAT DEDICATION FROM HIS OWN EMPLOYEES.

THEY CAN BE SEEN -- YOU WOULD APPRECIATE THIS -- AS A LITTLE STEVE JOBS LIKE.

THEY DEMAND A LOT OF DEDICATION.

THEY ARE QUIRKY, INTERESTING CHARACTERS.

SOMETIMES GENIUS RESULTS FROM THAT.

ONE HAS TO THANK BOTH OF THOSE CHARACTERS.

AS I LOOK AT THE CHARACTERS IN YOUR BOOK AND I GO THROUGH T THEM, YOU CAN SEE WHERE I'M GOING.

THEY ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS, FLEEING OPPRESSION.

THEY ALL -- SO MANY OF THEM -- ALMOST EVERY MAJOR CHARACTER IN YOUR BOOK IT SEEMS HAS COME TO THE U.S. AS AN IMMIGRANT.

WHY IS THAT?

IT'S A GREAT POINT.

THEY WOULD ARGUE THAT IT NEEDED TO BE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF AMERICAN INVESTORS.

THE TURKISH IMMIGRANT TO G GERMANY.

THE COMPANY IS GERMAN.

THEY DID THEIR INITIAL PUBLIC OFFERING IN THE UNITED STATES.

THEY GOT KEY INVESTMENT MONEY FROM THE UNITED STATES.

WE HAVE A CAPITAL MARKET THAT COMPANIES TURN TO, DEPEND ON FOR CRUCIAL INVESTMENT MONEY.

I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMIND US ALL OF THOSE ACHIEVERS OFTEN ARE IMMIGRANTS WHO COME TO THIS COUNTRY, THEY STRIVE, THEY ARE HUNGRY, THEY FOCUS ON EDUCATION OFTEN.

THEY ARE IMPRESSIVE.

THE CEO OF PFIZER IS AN IMMIGRANT TO THE UNITED STATES.

TIME AND TIME AGAIN, WITHIN THE COMPANIES, THE SCIENTISTS AS WELL, IT'S STRIKING AND IMPRESSIVE.

THE CHARACTERS YOU TALKED ABOUT AREN'T ALL THAT FAMOUS.

WEREN'T BEFORE THIS HAPPENED.

THEY WEREN'T THE PREMIERE RESEARCHERS AND BIG DRUG COMPANIES LIKE MERCK.

ONE OF THE AMAZING THINGS IS, WHY DOES MERCK FAIL?

WHY DO THESE UNKNOWN PEOPLE SUCCEED?

I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING, AT LEAST TO ME, THEMES FROM MY BOOK.

YOU WOULD HAVE EXPECTED THE VACCINE GIANT TO HAVE BEEN THE ONE TO CREATE THESE VACCINES, TO SAVE THE WORLD.

THAT'S MERCK, SANOFI.

PFIZER WASN'T A VACCINE PLAYER, MODERNA, THESE GROUP IN OXFORD, THIS GROUP UP IN BOSTON I WRITE ABOUT THAT CREATED THE JOHNSON & JOHNSON VACCINE, THEY WERE OVERLOOKED.

THEY WERE UNDERPR DLAPPRECIATED.

DISMISSED.

VACCINES UNTIL THIS PAST YEAR WERE SEEN AS SORT OF A LOSER BUSINESS IN THE WORLD OF PHARMA.

MERCK, THEY ARE A BIG COMPANY.

THEY WEREN'T SURE IT WAS WORTH THEIR WHILE TO CHASE THE COVID VACCINE.

THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO DID WANT TO CHASE IT AND FOCUS ON IT.

HISTORICALLY, MERCK IS THE VACCINE GIANT.

WE DEPEND ON THEM FOR MUMPS AND MEASLES AND OTHER VACCINES.

THERE WERE RESEARCHERS WITHIN MERCK WHO PUSHED THE COMPANY AND EXECUTIVES.

WE SHOULD BE THE ONES TO DEVELOP A COVID VACCINE.

OTHERS IN THE COMPANY SAID, WE ARE DOING SO WELL WITH CANCER AND SOME OTHER AREAS.

THEY SAVED LIVES IN OTHER AREAS WITH CANCER DRUGS AND SUCH.

THEY DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE THEIR EYE OFF THE BALL.

THEY HAD SEEN WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST WITH MERS AND SARS AND WHAT IT TAKES TO GET THOSE VACCINES MADE AND HOW THOSE VIRUSES PETERED OUT.

THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE WITHIN MERCK WHO SAID IT WASN'T THEIR WHILE.

WHAT DID WE LEARN FROM THE ATTEMPT TO CREATE AN AIDS VACCINE?

WHY DON'T WE HAVE AN AIDS VACCINE?

THAT'S JUST A VIRUS AS WELL.

YEAH.

I START MY BOOK OFF WRITING ABOUT THE CHANCE FOR AN HIV VACCINE.

IT'S INSTRUCTIVE.

WE HAVE NEVER FIGURED OUT.

THERE IS FRUSTRATION AFTER FRUSTRATION.

ONE OF THE APPROACHES THAT WAS DEVELOPED TO FIGHT HIV AND DEVELOP A VACCINE IS THE APPROACH OF USING A VIRUS, A HARMLESS VIRUS, TO FERRY GENETIC INFORMATION TO THE BODY, TO THE CELLS AND TO TEACH THE IMMUNE SYSTEM TO -- THEY WERE TRYING TO DO HIV.

IT DIDN'T WORK WITH HIV.

MERCK SPENT YEARS ON IT.

I WRITE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

IT'S SAD AND IT DIDN'T WORK.

IT EVEN POTENTIALLY HARMED.

FROM THAT FRUSTRATION CAME BOTH THE JOHNSON & JOHNSON AND THE ASTRAZENECA EFFORTS.

THOSE ARE EFFECTIVE VACCINES.

IT'S A LESSON THAT SCIENTIFIC BREAKTHROUGHS SOMETIMES COME FROM FRUSTRATION.

GETTING BACK TO YOUR POINT, HIV IS SO MUCH MORE CHALLENGING AND HARDER THAN OTHER ILLNESSES LIKE COVID.

WE HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT COVID AND WHAT IT BROUGHT.

HIV AS A DISEASE, AS A VIRUS, IT'S CHANGING ALL THE TIME.

IT CHANGES FROM BONE PERSON TO THE NEXT.

OUR IMMUNE SYSTEM NEEDS SO MUCH HELP AND IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN ANY WAY TO HELP FIGHT IT OFF.

MY HEROES IN MY BOOK ARE WORKING ON HIV.

THEY ARE NOT GIVING UP.

THE RESILIENCE THAT THEY SHOW IS PRETTY IMPRESSIVE.

WE ARE HOPING OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS MAYBE THEY CAN HAVE SUCCESS THERE AS WELL.

HOW MUCH CREDIT SHOULD OPERATION WARP SPEED, LED BY ANOTHER IMMIGRANT, UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION GET FOR THESE VACCINES HAVING BEEN CREATED SO QUICKLY?

I THINK WE NEED TO GIVE A LOT OF CREDIT TO OPERATION WARP SPEED.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DIDN'T DO A GREAT JOB BEFORE WARP SPEED IN TERMS OF INITIALLY REACTING TO THE VIRUS AND ITS SPREAD.

ONE CAN ARGUE THE ROLLOUT WASN'T DONE FLAWLESSLY.

BOTH BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BUT BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

OPERATION WARP SPEED FUNNELED MONEY QUICKLY TO A LOT OF THE COMPANIES.

IT ALSO DID ALL KINDS OF REALLY IMPORTANT WORK THAT HASN'T BEEN FOCUSED ON IN TERMS OF LOGISTICS.

YOU NEED A PART, MODERNA IN MASSACHUSETTS, THERE ARE PARTS.

THEY WERE ABLE TO CLOSE ROADS AND FERRY THIS KIND OF STUFF AND OVER BRIDGES AND GET TRUCKS AND SUCH AND GET THE PARTS NECESSARY.

OPERATION WARP SPEED IS HELPFUL.

THAT SAID, SOMETIMES -- I WRITE ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK.

SOMETIMES IT THREW A WRENCH INTO THE PLANS, SET THEM BACK.

JUST LIKE ANY BUREAUBUREAUCRACY.

THERE ARE BUREAUCRATIC WAYS THEY SLOW THINGS DOWN.

THERE'S A REASON WHY PFIZER -- THEY SOLD VACCINES TO THE GOVERNMENT.

BUT THEY DIDN'T TAKE MONEY TO DEVELOP BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD SLOW THEM DOWN.

I DON'T THINK IT'S A COINCIDENCE THAT PFIZER IS THE FIRST COMPANY TO PRODUCE THE VACCINES.

IT HELPED THEM THEY DIDN'T TAKE MONEY FROM OPERATION WARP SPEED.

IT WAS VERY HELPFUL FOR ALL THE MAKERS.

THERE WERE TIMES WHEN IT SLOWED THINGS DOWN.

WHAT WAS THE THING THAT MOST SURPRISED YOU IN DOING THIS BOOK?

THE PRECARIOUS WAY MODERNA OR PFIZER WERE AND HOW CLOSE A CALL THEY HAD?

I WAS SURPRISED THAT AS RECENTLY AS THE SPRING AND EARLY SUMMER OF 2020, IT WASN'T CLEAR WHETHER MODERNA WAS GOING TO DEVELOP ANY VACCINE WHATSOEVER.

THEY HAD THE TECHNOLOGY.

THEY HAD THE APPROACH.

THEY PRODUCE AID A VACCINE.

IN TERMS OF MANUFACTURING ENOUGH, THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY.

THEY WERE DESPERATE FOR MONEY.

THEY WENT TO THE GATES FOUNDATION, NON-PROFITS, THEY WENT TO THE GOVERNMENT.

NO ONE GAVE THEM MONEY.

THEY HAD TO TURN TO WALL STREET.

I KIND OF FOUND INTERESTING.

BIG, BAD PHARMA LINKED UP WITH BIG, BAD WALL STREET.

THEY RAISED SO MUCH MONEY THAT THEY COULD FINALLY PRODUCE THESE VACCINES.

IT COULD HAVE GONE ANY OTHER WAY AND IT WAS VERY POSSIBLE THAT MODERNA WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THE ONE TO PRODUCE THESE VACCINES.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT WALL STREET.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT HEDGE FUNDS.

IS OUR SYSTEM A WACKY ONE OR IS IT A GOOD ONE WHERE A SMALL COMPANY LIKE MODERNA HAS TO HUSTLE FOR MONEY AND MAYBE THERE'S GOVERNMENT SUPPORTING FOR BASIC RESEARCH AND FINALLY MAYBE THEY CAN GO TO WALL STREET AND GET INVESTORS?

IS THAT AN EFFICIENT AND GOOD WAY TO DO THINGS?

IT'S A LITTLE LIKE CHURCHILL SAID ABOUT DEMOCRACY.

IT'S NOT THE BEST SYSTEM, BUT IT BEATS ALL THE OTHERS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF INVESTORS OUT THERE, VENTURE CAPITAL INVESTORS AND OTHERS, SMALL INVESTORS LIKE YOU AND I WHO ARE READY TO PUT MONEY INTO COMPANIES WITH JUST -- ON A PROMISE, ON THE HOPE.

THERE'S A LITTLE COMPANY I WRITE ABOUT THAT I THINK WILL COME OUT WITH A REALLY EFFECTIVE COVID VACCINE.

IT WAS A DOLLAR A SHARE GOING INTO 2020.

THERE WERE INVESTORS WHO BELIEVED.

CAPITALISM DOES GET SOME CREDIT FOR THESE COVID VACCINES AND FOR THE CRITICISM, WE HAVE TO GIVE APPRECIATION.

GREG ZUCKER MMAN, THANK YOU R BEING WITH US.

A LOT OF FUN.