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> HELLO AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
YOU'VE GOT TO BE DOOM AND GLOOM AND YOU'VE GOT TO REMAIN DOOM AND GLOOM UNTIL WE THINK THAT WE HAVE FIXED THIS THING.
MY INTERVIEW WITH PRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON ON THIS MAKE-OR-BREAK MOMENT FOR HUMANITY.
> THEN --
THE CLIMATE ISSUE.
JOHN KIRBY TELLS ME WHY HE IS HOPEFUL THAT CHINA CAN AND WILL HELP SAVE OUR FUTURE.
AND --
I HOPE NOBODY THINKS I JUST HAD A BAD DAY AND SAID, OKAY, I'M DONE WITH THIS.
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY HE STOOD DOWN AS DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH AFTER 12 YEARS GUIDING U.S. POLICY.
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THANK YOU.
> WURJS EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.
HERE AT THE CONFERENCE CENTER AT THE CLIMATE SUMMIT IN GLASGOW.
THEY DON'T SHARE THE SAME GLOBAL VIEW OF MOST THINGS, BUT LEADERS FROM THE UNITED STATES, RUSSIA, CHINA, ALONG WITH MORE THAN 100 OTHERS HAVE COMMITTED TO END AND REVERSE DEFORESTATION BY 2030.
TAKE A LISTEN TO PRESIDENTS BIDEN AND PUTIN.
THROUGH THIS PLAN THE UNITED STATES WILL HELP THE WORLD DELIVER IN OUR SHARED GOAL OF HALTING NATURAL FOREST LOSS AND RESTORING AN ADDITIONAL 200 MILLION HECTARES OF FOREST BY THE YEAR 2030.
WE EXPECT THIS IMPLEMENTATION TO FACILITATE CLOSER PARTNERSHIPS BETWEEN ALL INTERESTED STATES AND FOREST CON VERVATION.
THIS WILL SERVE THE OBJECTIVES OF REDUCING LEVELS OF CARBON DIOXIDE IN THE ATMOSPHERE SET OUT IN THE PARIS AGREEMENT.
AND A U.S.-LED ALLIANCE PLEDGES TO CUT METHANE EMISSIONS BY 30% BY THE END OF THE DECADE.
THESE PLEJTS PLEDGES ARE NON-BINDING BUT TOUTED AS EARLY WHIPS FOR THIS CLIMATE SUMMIT AND FOR THE HOST THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON.
HE SAT DOWN FOR AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW ON THE SIDELINES OF THIS CONFERENCE.
PRIME MINISTER JOHNSON, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
GREAT TO BE HERE.
SO YOU WERE A LITTLE BIT DOOM AND GLOOM BEFORE THIS STARTED.
YOU KNOW, A CLASSROOM FULL OF CHILDREN, TOUCH AND GO WHETHER WE WILL ACHIEVE THE TARGET OF 1.5.
YOU TALKED ABOUT DIFFUSING THE DOOMSDAY BOMB OR CLOCK.
ARE YOU DOOM AND GLOOM?
I THINK YOU'VE GOT TO BE DOOM AND GLOOM AND YOU'VE GOT TO REMAIN DOOM AND GLOOM UNTIL WE REALLY THINK THAT WE HAVE FIXED THIS THING.
THIS IS A MASSIVE PROBLEM.
I THOUGHT THAT DAVID ATTENBOROUGH'S PRESENTATION YESTERDAY MORNING WAS ABSOLUTELY SPELL-BINDING BECAUSE HE SET OUT FOR EVERYBODY TO UNDERSTAND SO CLEARLY THE LINK BETWEEN THE RISE IN CARBON, THE PROPORTION OF CARBON IN THE WORLD'S ATMOSPHERE AND THE RISE IN TEMPERATURES AND YOU COULD SEE THAT LINK OVER THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND THEN SUDDENLY YOU SEE THIS SPIKE IN CARBON AND YOU SEE THE BEGINNINGS OF THE RISE IN TEMPERATURE.
AND YOU KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO COME.
AND YOU CAN SEE THE RISK TO THE PLANET.
AND SO THE THREAT IS HUGE.
I THINK IT'S BEEN VERY HUMBLING, REALLY, TO LISTEN TO SOME OF THE TESTIMONIES FROM COUNTRIES LIKE BANGLADESH OR THE MALDIVES, PEOPLE WHEN N THE FRONT LINE --
LET ME ASK BUT THOSE.
SO I THINK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN REALLY THINKING ABOUT WHAT MORE THEY CAN DO.
SOME OF THESE FRONT LINE COUNTRIES, INCLUDING, YOU KNOW, LIKE BARBADOS, I SPOKE TO THE PRIME MINISTER YESTERDAY, MIA MOTTLEY, AN AMAZING WOMAN.
SHE GAVE A RIP ROARING SPEECH TO THE PLENARY.
SHE SAID SHE IS CALLING CODE RED, PARTICULARLY ON CHINA, BIGGEST POLLUTERS.
SHE SAYS YOU ARE KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE LINE.
IN OTHER WORDS, THE RICH COUNTRIES MEANT TO PROVIDE A LOT OF MONEY, $100 BILLION PER YEAR TO HELP MITIGATE THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON THE POOR OR MORE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES.
IT'S NOT HAPPENING YET.
WHY NOT?
THESE PLEDGES HAVE BEEN MADE BUT NOT KEPT.
WELL, I THOUGHT HER SPEECH WAS -- IT WAS BRILLIANT.
AND SHE SET OUT THE POSITION OF THE SMALL ISLAND NATIONS WHAT THEY ARE FACING.
THE REALITY OF MORE HURRICANES.
THE REALITY OF, YOU KNOW, POVERTY AND DESTITUTION AS A RESULT OF PLANET CHANGE.
AND WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE -- WHAT I'M SAYING IS WE HAVE TO -- BEFORE WE CLAIM THAT THINGS ARE GETTING BETTER, ALTHOUGH WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS, WE HAVE TO BE HUMBLE IN THE FACE OF THE SCALE OF THE PROBLEM WE HAVE.
THE PROBLEM HUGE.
I'LL BE STARTING TO INCH FORWARD AT COP?
I THINK, ARGUABLY, WE ARE.
AND I THINK THAT IN SOME IMPORTANT WAYS YOU ARE SEEING SOME GOOD COMMITMENTS ON TREES, TODAY ON FOREST, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR TACKLING CLIMATE CHANGE.
YOU ARE SEEING SOME IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTIONS ON ACCELERATING THE MOVE AWAY FROM COAL.
YOU HEARD A BIG ANNOUNCEMENT FROM JAPAN TODAY ABOUT MONEY TO GET TO MIA MOTTLEY'S POINT.
NOW, WE'VE GOT UNTIL THE MIDDLE OF THE MONTH.
WE HAVE GOT LESS THAN TWO WEEKS TO GO.
HOW MUCH MORE PROGRESS CAN WE MAKE?
AND THAT'S THE ISSUE.
AND WHAT EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT WE HAVE TO ACHIEVE.
DO ENOUGH, WE HAVE TO COMMIT ENOUGH TO REDUCING CO2 OUTPUT THROUGH REDUCING COAL USE, THROUGH STOPPING VEHICULAR EMISSIONS FROM CARS, PLANTING MORE TREES, FUNDING NEW TECHNOLOGY AROUND THE WORLD.
WE HAVE TO HAVE A PROGRAM THAT WILL ENABLE US TO SAY THAT WE'VE KEPT ALIVE THE GOAL OF ONLY INCREASING TEMPERATURES BY 1.5 DEGREES.
CLEARLY, I ASK ALL THE LEADERS WHO I TALK TO, WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO SHOW THAT YOU ARE CREDIBLE AND THAT YOUR NATION IS CREDIBLE IN THESE PLEDGES, AND IT'S NOT JUST RHETORIC, THAT IT'S REALITY.
SO AS YOU KNOW, BETTER THAN I DO, THERE ARE COAL -- COAL FIELDS PLANNED FOR -- COAL DIGGING PLANNED FOR CAMBRIA IN THIS COUNTRY.
WOULD YOU SAY YOU WOULD INTERVENE TO STOP THAT?
I DON'T HAVE THE LEGAL POWERS.
THAT'S SOMETHING FOR LOCAL PLANNING.
LOCAL PLANNING HAS RULED ON IT AND IT HAS COME BACK TO THE GOVERNMENT.
WHAT THEY ARE SAYING -- IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE U.K., WE HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM COAL AT EXTRAORDINARY SPEED.
THE STORY OF U.K. COAL -- DON'T FORGET WHAT HAPPENED IN OUR COUNTRY.
WE HAD -- WHEN I WAS A KID, WE HAD 80% OF OUR POWER CAME FROM COAL.
AND WHEN I WAS MAYOR OF LONDON WHEN YOU INTERVIEWED ME LAST TIME IT WAS 40%. RIGHT?
SO BETWEEN THAT INTERVIEW, CHRISTIANE, AND THIS ONE, 40% TO LESS THAN 1%.
LESS THAN 1%?
LESS THAN 1%. IT'S ROUGHLY THAT.
AND IT'S GOING TO GO DOWN TO ZERO BY --
WHY NOT JUST -- AFTER THIS SUMMIT AND FOR EVERYTHING YOU ARE SAYING -- BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND IT COMES BACK TO THE MINISTER IN CHARGE.
BECAUSE WE ARE LEGALLY SKRUPLIS COUNTRY AND THERE IS A PLANNING DECISION TO TAKE.
I AM NOT THE PLANNING AUTHORITY.
IT IS YOUR GOVERNMENT.
I DON'T WANT MORE COAL.
THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T WANT MORE --
WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO STOP IT?
WE WILL DO WHAT WE ARE LEGALLY ABLE TO DO.
BUT THIS IS A PLANNING DECISION.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE REALITY, THE REALITY IS WE HAVE POWERED PAST COAL.
WE WILL GET TO -- WE WILL BE ABLE TO GET TO NET-ZERO ENERGY PRODUCTION, CLEAN ENERGY PRODUCTION BY 2035.
WE'RE GOING AHEAD WITH NO NEW INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES BY THE END OF THIS DECADE.
THAT'S LIKE EIGHT YEARS AWAY, BY CHRISTMAS, BY THE END OF THIS YEAR.
THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE SPEED TO DO THINGS.
THE U.K.'S NATIONALLY DETERMINED CONTRIBUTION FOR REDUCING CO2 IS 68% ON 1990 LEVELS.
THE REASON WE HAD CREDIBILITY, CHRISTIANE, IS BECAUSE WE HAVE 44%.
OKAY, THAT'S WONDERFUL.
44% SINCE --
YOU WANT TO TELL ME WHY YOUR GOVERNMENT WON'T INTERVENE TO STOP THE GOAL IN CAMBRIA.
I UNDERSTAND IT'S COME TO ANYONE STER, SECRETARY, HOWEVER YOU DESCRIBE IT.
LOETS MOVE TO CAMBO IN THE SHETLANDS, OFF THE SHETLANDS IN THE NORTH SEA.
YOUR SCOTLAND MINISTER SAID -- FOR OIL AND GAS DRILLING, RIGHT, AND YOU YOUR SCOTTISH SECRETARY SAID 100% WE NEED TO, YOU KNOW, HAVE IT DONE.
WE CANNOT RUN AWAY FROM OIL AND NATURAL GAS.
DOESN'T THAT FLY IN THE FACE OF EVERYTHING YOU ARE TELLING ME NOW, THAT WE --
NOT AT ALL.
WE HAVE TO FLY AWAY FROM THOSE CO2 -- EMITTING --
THERE IS A FUTURE FOR HYDROCARBONS IF YOU ELIMINATE THE HYDROGEN FROM THE CARBON AND YOU SEQUESTER THE CARBON.
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE -- THAT'S WHAT WE ARE GAEG TO DO.
WE HAVE MASSIVE PLANS FOR CREATING GREEN HYDROGEN AND BLUE HYDROGEN AND FOR CARBON CAPTURE AND STORAGE.
AND SO THERE IS AN AGENDA IN THE U.K. TO BE AT THE CUTTING EDGE OF NEW TECHNOLOGY TO DRIVE CHANGE.
AND, YES, OF COURSE THE OIL FIELDS AND THE GAS FIELDS IN THE NORTH SEA AND IN SCOTLAND HAVE BEEN OF GREAT IMPORTANCE TO OUR COUNTRY FOR, YOU KNOW, DECADES AND DECADES AGO.
WHEN I WAS A KID AND THEY REMAIN IMPORTANT, BUT WHAT YOU ARE SEEING IS YOUNG PEOPLE IN THOSE INDUSTRIES NOW MOVING INTO THE INCREDIBLE GROWTH OF WIND FARMS.
I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT WIND FARMS.
WHEN YOU WERE MAYOR --
THEY ARE EXTRAORDINARY --
WHEN YOU WERE MAYOR --
IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT WE ARE DOING, WE KNOW THAT THE BIGGEST -- SO THE U.K., WHICH, YOU KNOW, HAS ONLY 0.7% OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION, 0.8% OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION, IS THE BIGGEST PRODUCER OF OFFSHORE WIND IN THE WORLD.
OKAY, SO WHEN YOU WERE MAYOR YOU WROTE AN ARTICLE IN 'THE DAILY TELEGRAPH,' MAYBE BEFORE YOU WERE MAYOR, IN WHICH YOU SAID WIND TURBINES COULD NOT -- ARE SO PUNY THEY COULD NOT RIP THE SKIN OFF A RICE PUDDING.
FOR YOU VIEWERS A RICE PUDDING IS A FAMOUS ENGLISH DESSERT.
IT'S A GLOBAL DESSERT.
ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE VIEWERS OF CNN ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH RICE PUDDING?
EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT A RICE PUDDING IS.
OKAY.
HAVE YOU CHANGED -- YOU CLEARLY CHANGED YOUR MIND?
I HAVE.
I HAVE.
WIND FARMS?
I HAVE.
WHAT MADE YOU A CONVERT?
TECHNOLOGY.
TECHNOLOGY.
THE DEVELOPMENT IN THE TECHNOLOGY OF WIND FARMS HAS BEEN UNBELIEVABLE.
AND SO IF YOU LOOK AT SOPHISTICATION MUCH THE CELLS, THE SUR BYNES NOW, THE SIZE OF THE TURBINES, THE WAY THEY ARE ABLE TO BUILD SAIL, BUILD WINGS, BLADES, PROPELLER BLADES FOR THE TURBINES, TWICE THE SIZE OF THE LONDON EYE, RIGHT?
SO THE DIAMETER OF THE TURBINES WE ARE NOW PUTTING UP IN THE NORTH SEA ARE TWICE THE DIAMETER OF THE LONDON EYE.
IMAGINE THAT.
THESE ARE ENORMOUS CREATIONS.
THEY ARE ACTUALLY RATHER BEAUTIFUL.
THE ISSUE IS WHAT ARE WE DOING IN THE NORTH SEA TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE INTEGRATED INTO THE ECOSYSTEMS?
HOW DO WE PROTECT THE MARINE LIFE?
HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT BIRDS DON'T SUFFER?
THERE ARE LOTS OF WAYS OF DOING THAT.
BUT YOU'VE GOT A SOURCE OF A LONG-TERM CLEAN GREEN ENERGY.
DO YOU THINK THIS -- AND I WANT TO ASK YOU ONE LAST --
AND THE DOINGER BANK.
I WANT TO GIVE YOU A GEOGRAPHICAL --
WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.
THE DOGGAR BANK, 6,000 YEARS AGO BRITAIN WAS CONNECTED TO HOLLAND BY A STRETCH OF LAND, RIGHT, WHICH WAS CALLED DOGGERLAND WHERE THE DOGGER PEOPLE LIVED, DID WHATEVER THEY DID.
AND THERE WAS A CATACLYSM CALLED THE STORAGA, AN UNDERSEA LANDSLIDE OFF THE COAST OF NORWAY WHICH INUNDATED DOGGERLAND.
IT'S VERY SHALLOW AND PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS DREDGING UP ARTIFACTS FROM THE DOGGER CIVILIZATION.
AND YOU CAN PUT WIND TURBINES THERE IN GREAT NUMBERS AND HARVEST THE VERY VIOLENT WINDS OF THE NORTH SEA.
OKAY.
CAN I MOVE ON TO COVID-19?
YES.
THERE IS A BIG SPIKE IN COVID IN THIS COUNTRY AND THE RECORD HERE IS WORSE THAN IT IS ELSEWHERE AROUND EUROPE.
I WOULD DISPUTE THAT, BUT GO ON.
THE FACTS SHOW IT.
AGAIN, I WOULD DISPUTE THAT.
SHOULD I READ THEM?
YOU CAN READ WHATEVER YOU LIKE, BUT --
LET ME ASK YOU THE QUESTION.
YEAH.
YOU HAVE SAID YOU ARE GOING TO STICK TO PLAN A, WHICH IS NO MANDATORY MASKS, KEEP THE VACCINES GOING, NONE OF THE SOCIAL DISTANCING OR VACCINE PROOFS THAT SOME OF THE OTHER COUNTRIES ARE DOING.
BUT THE NHS CONFEDERATION AND BRITISH MEDICAL ASSOCIATION HAVE SAID THAT PLAN B SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED NOW.
IN OTHER WORDS, MASKS WHEN IT'S APPROPRIATE IN CROWDED PLACES, SOME SORT OF SOCIAL DISTANCING, AND THEY ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW, MAYBE EVEN VACCINE PROOF.
WHY WOULD YOU NOT?
IT'S A VERY CHEAP AND EASY AND PEOPLE ARE USED TO MASKS.
WHY WOULD YOU NOT DO THAT?
THEY SAY THERE WILL BE POTENTIALLY ANOTHER PRESSURE ON THE NHS THIS WINTER.
WATCHING THE DATA THE WHOLE TIME.
WE ARE ALL LOOKING AT THE DATA.
WE HAVE GOT TO REMAIN VERY CAUTIOUS.
WE HAVE GOT TO REMAIN HUMBLE IN THE FACE OF THE -- OF NATURE, WHAT THE DISEASE CAN DO.
AT THE MOMENT WE DON'T SEE ANY REASON TO DEVIATE FROM THE PLAN THAT WE'RE ON THAT BEGAN REALLY AT THE BEGINNING.
YEAR WITH THE ROADMAP FOR ROLLING OUT THE VACCINE AND GETTING OURSELVES ON TO A DIFFERENT FOOTING.
STARTING TO DEAL WITH COVID AS SOMETHING THAT IS PART OF OUR LIVES, BUT USING VACCINATION AS THE PRIMARY TOOL.
AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING.
AND I THINK THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR OUR U.K.
VIEWERS, CHRISTIANE, IS THEY SHOULD GET THEIR THIRD JAB.
GET THEIR BOOSTER.
THE BOOSTER?
THE BOOSTER IS THE THING.
I HAD A VERY INTERESTING CONVERSATION EARLIER ON WITH NEFTALI BENNETT OF ISRAEL.
YOU KNOW, IT'S THAT THIRD JAB GIVES YOU A HUGE AMOUNT OF PROTECTION.
AND CONVERSELY, IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT, THEN THE PROTECTION STARTS TO WANE AND SO EVEN IF YOU HAVE HAD TWO JABS, I THINK PEOPLE NEED TO WAKE UP TO THE FACT THAT WITHOUT THE BOOSTER, THEY ARE GOING TO BE LESS PROTECTED.
AND WE NEED THEM TO GET THE BOOSTERS IN THE WAY THAT THEY GOT THEIR FIRST TWO.
DO YOU WANT TO ANSWER WHAT'S GOING AROUND ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
YOU BROUGHT UP THE NATIONAL TREASURE SIR DAVID ATTENBOROUGH.
THERE YOU WERE IN THE PLENARY.
HE IS 95 YEARS OLD.
HE WAS WEARING A MASK AND YOU WEREN'T.
IT'S ALL OVER THE PLACE.
RIGHT.
YOU WEREN'T WEARING A MASK NEXT YESTERDAY SITTING NEXT TO 95-YEAR-OLD NATIONAL TREASURE DAVID ATTENBOROUGH.
I HAVE BEEN WEARING A MASK IN CONFINED SPACES WITH PEOPLE THAT I DON'T NORMALLY MEET.
I THINK IT'S UP TO PEOPLE TO TAKE A JUDGMENT ABOUT WHETHER THEY'RE -- WHETHER THEY'RE -- YOU KNOW, AT A REASONABLE DISTANCE FROM SOMEONE AND WHETHER THEY ARE WITH SOMEONE -- THAT'S THE -- THAT'S THE APPROACH.
GOING BACK TO THE U.S. AND CLIMATE AND THIS WILL BE THE LAST QUESTION, YOU HAVE, OBVIOUSLY, SEEN THAT THERE HAVE BEEN SUCCESSIVE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATIONS WHO HAVE SIGNED ON TO VARIOUS CLIMATE SUMMITS LIKE KYOTO AND PARIS.
YES.
AND OTHERS WHO PULLED OUT.
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO FELLOW LEADERS?
WHAT DO YOU THINK YOURSELF ABOUT HOW FAR CAN ONE TRUST ANY U.S.
ADMINISTRATION THAT WHATEVER YOU MIGHT SAY AND DO AND PROMISE, ANOTHER ONE MIGHT JUST PULL OUT OF WHAT YOU HAVE ALL ACHIEVED?
I TELL YOU WHAT'S CHANGED.
I THINK SO -- I WAS AT PARIS.
I WAS AT COPENHAGEN.
I WAS THERE MORE THAN TEN YEARS AGO, 12 YEARS AGO IN COPENHAGEN, SIX YEARS AGO IN PARIS.
I REMEMBER THESE EVENTS VERY WELL, AND THEY WERE TOTALLY -- THEY WERE VERY DIFFERENT BECAUSE WHAT WAS HAPPENING THEN WAS THAT YOU HAD KIND OF GLOBAL LEADER -- AND COPENHAGEN, HARDLY ANYBODY COVERED.
YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN THERE, BUT IT WASN'T A HUGE NATURAL STORY.
PARIS WAS MUCH BIGGER.
BUT AGAIN IT SORT OF FELT LIKE THE DELECTABLE DISPUTATIONS OF GLOBAL LEADERS RATHER THAN SOMETHING THAT WAS REALLY BEING DRIVEN BY POPULAR FEELING.
WHAT'S CHANGED NOW, CHRISTIANE, IS THAT THE -- I THINK THE VOTERS IN OUR COUNTRIES WANT CHANGE.
AND THE VOTERS IN OUR COUNTRIES WANT US TO FIX THIS THING.
AND I BELIEVE THAT GOES FOR ALL GREAT WESTERN DEMOCRACIES, BUT I THINK IT ALSO GOES FOR POPULATIONS AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE ONE THING YOU SAW WITH COVID IS THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT FOOLS AND THEY -- WHEN THEY SEE SOMETHING THAT THEY DON'T LIKE, THEY THINK IS A NATURAL DISASTER IMPENDING LIKE COVID, THEY TOOK ACTION.
PEOPLE STOPPED MINGLING IN THE WAY THAT THEY HAD BEFORE, EVEN WITHOUT GOVERNMENTS TELLING THEM TO DO SO.
PEOPLE CAN SEE THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS A PROBLEM.
THEY CAN SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE WILDFIRES AND THE FLOODING.
THEY KNOW THAT SOMETHING OUT OF THE -- OUT OF THE NORMAL RUN OF EVENTS IS TAKING PLACE.
AND IT'S MOVING UP THEIR AGENDA.
I BELIEVE THAT JOE HAS -- UNDERSTANDS THAT, JOE BIDEN, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES UNDERSTANDS THAT, AND I THINK THAT HE'S -- HIS PEOPLE ARE VERY ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT HIS AGENDA TO FIX IT.
BUT I THINK THAT ANY FUTURE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO BE RESPONDING TO STRONG, STRONG DEMOCRATIC PRESSURE TO JOIN AND SUPPORT THE REST OF THE WORLD IN FIXING CLIMATE CHANGE.
WE COULD GO ON --
THANK YOU.
YOU HAVE LIMITED TIME.
THANK YOU, PRIME MINISTER.
INDEED, THE URGENCY IS PALPABLE AND FEW PEOPLE KNOW THIS AS WELL AS MY NEXT GUEST, THE FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE OF THE UNITED STATES JOHN KERRY.
HE HAS BEEN MAKING THE CASE FOR THE CLIMATE FOR DECADES, SIGNING THE U.S. IN THE PARIS CLIMATE AGREEMENT SIX YEARS AGO WITH HIS GRANDDAUGHTER ON HIS LAP.
NOW THAT HE IS PRESIDENT BIDEN'S CLIMATE CZAR HE TELLS ME WHY HE THINKS THE WORLD IS MORE ENGAGED NOW THAN EVER BEFORE.
SECRETARY KERRY, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU.
LOOK, THERE WAS A LOT OF LOWERING OF EXPECTATIONS IN THE IMMEDIATE DAYS LEADING TO THIS SUMMIT WHERE WE ARE, AND I JUST WONDER WHETHER OVERNIGHT THE ANNOUNCEMENT ON DEFORESTATION IS, YOU KNOW, TO GIVE US A TOUCHY-FEELY GOOD FEELING, OR IS IT A REALLY MAJOR GOOD NEWS ITEM?
IT'S A MAJOR, MAJOR GOOD NEWS ITEM AND IT'S BEEN QUITE SOME TIME IN THE WORKING.
THIS IS A COMMITMENT BY MULTILATERAL COMMITMENT, WHICH BORIS JOHNSON HAS ANNOUNCED, FOR $12 BILLION THAT WILL BE COMMITTED TO PROTECTING THE CONGO BASIN, PROTECTING THE AMAZON, PROTECTING INDONESIA FORESTS, ET CETERA.
THE MAJOR FORESTS OF THE PLANET.
IN ADDITION TO THAT, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS PUT FORWARD A BILATERAL COMMITMENT BY THE UNITED STATES TO WORK WITH PARTICULARLY BRAZIL AND THE AMAZON AND THERE IS A $9 BILLION COMMITMENT OVER TEN YEARS, WHICH THE UNITED STATES CAN BE INVOLVED IN.
WE HAVE BEEN DIRECTLY WORK WITH BRAZIL FOR MONTHS NOW AND BRARZ, AS YOU KNOW, CAME IN WITH A MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT ENDING DEFORESTATION BY 2028, TWO YEARS BEFORE THE BROADER MULTILATERAL ONE, AND ALSO COMMITTING TO THE METHANE PLEDGE AND SETTING A GOAL BY 2030 OF 50% DEPLOYMENT OF RENEWABLE.
SO THINGS ARE HAPPENING, WHICH IS WHAT WE PREDICTED.
WE SAID THAT WE WILL COME TO GLASGOW AND THERE WILL BE THE GREATEST INCREASE IN AMBITION THAT WE HAVE SEEN TO DATE.
DO YOU TRUST THEM?
IT'S NOT A QUESTION OF TRUST.
WE DON'T GET INTO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT BUILT ON TRUST.
IT'S BUILT ON SPECIFIC STEPS THAT PEOPLE TAKE.
SPECIFIC STEPS FOR THE COMMITMENT OF MONEY AND SPECIFIC STEPS FOR ENFORCEMENT, WHICH WE CAN TRACK.
WE HAVE THE SATELLITES.
YOU JUST SAID IT.
WE SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE ON A DAILY BASIS.
AND THERE IS A NEW LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY NOT JUST FOR THE AMAZON, BUT GLOBALLY ALL OVER THE WORLD.
JUST THE OTHER DAY YOU SAW FRONT PAGE STORY IN 'THE WASHINGTON POST' TALKING ABOUT THE PINPOINTING, A METHANE LEAK IN RUSSIA.
THIS IS NOW THE TECHNOLOGICAL CAPACITY WE HAVE.
SO, YOU KNOW, THE OLD SAYING, YOU CAN RUN BUT YOU CAN'T HIDE?
NOW YOU MAKE A COMMITMENT, WE ARE GOING TO KNOW INSTANTANEOUSLY.
METHANE SORT OF GOES BY THE WAYSIDE BECAUSE EVERYBODY FOCUSES ON CO2, BUT METHANE IS MORE TOOK TOXIC THAN CO2.
20 TO 80 TIMES MORE TOXIC.
EXACTLY.
BUT ONE OF THE MAJOR GOALS, OBVIOUSLY, IS TO GET THAT CURVE OF CARBON EMISSIONS TO REALLY GO DOWN.
IT'S COME DOWN A BIT SINCE 2014, SINCE PARIS, WHICH YOU NEGOTIATED FOR THE U.S., BUT IT'S NOT FAST ENOUGH.
CORRECT.
AND YET TWO ISSUES.
NARENDRA MODI, THE PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA, HAS PLEDGED TO BE CARBON-NEUTRAL BY 2070.
THAT IS A TWO DECADES LATER THAN ALL OF YOU MAJOR POLLUTERS ARE PLEDGING.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN EVEN?
2070?
IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN WHAT THAT MEANS BECAUSE HE ACCOMPANIED THAT WITH A MAJOR COMMITMENT TO THE DEPLOYMENT.
OF RENEWABLE ENERGY.
SO 450 GIG WATTS OF RENEWABLES.
WE HAVE FORMED A PARTNERSHIP WITH INDIA.
I HAVE A APPOINTED A FULL-TIME PERSON TO BE ON THE GROUND IN INDIA TO WORK ON THIS.
A SENIOR EXPERIENCED SERVICE OFFICIAL.
AND WE HAVE THE ABILITY, I THINK, TO BE ABLE TO WORK WITH INDIA TO BRING FINANCE TO THE TABLE AND BRING TECHNOLOGY TO THE I TABLE.
INDIA IS A DEVELOPING COUNTRY, GENUINELY DEVELOPING AT THIS POINT.
HUGE COUNTRY.
AND THERE ARE CHALLENGES BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE READY ALTERNATIVES TO THEIR ENERGY PRODUCTION.
SO WE, THE DEVELOPED WORLD, MUST STEP UP IN ORDER TO HELP ACCELERATE THIS.
I THINK INDIA IS OPEN TO THE ACCELERATION.
I THINK THERE ARE PLENTY -- WE HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH MEXICO, WITH SOUTH AFRICA, WITH INDONESIA, SAUDI ARABIA, WITH VARIOUS COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.
RUSSIA.
WE BELIEVE COUNTRIES WANT TO DO THINGS, BUT CAN'T TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, AND WE HAVE TO GET PEOPLE TO STOP BUILDING THE CURRENT GENERATION OF NEW COAL PLANTS.
I MEAN, THAT ERASES A LOT OF THE PROGRESS THAT WE MAKE.
YET, THERE ARE NO PROMISES TO STOP INDIVIDUAL COUNTRIES BUILDING NEW COAL PLANTS TO WIT CHINA IS ONE WHO YOU HAVE WORKED ON VERY HARD.
WELL, THERE IS NO PROMISE YET, BUT I THINK WHAT CAN HAPPEN HERE AS WE PROGRESS --
BUT CHINA IS NOT HERE.
THE PRESIDENT IS NOT HERE.
CHINA IS HERE.
THEIR LEAD NEGOTIATOR.
VERY, VERY EXPERIENCED INDIVIDUAL.
GOOD FRIEND.
WE WORKED TOGETHER FOR 25 YEARS.
THEY KNOW THE INS AND OUTS OF THIS ISSUE.
THEY ARE WORKING.
WE HAVE BEEN MEETING AND GOING THROUGH VARIOUS OPTIONS THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE.
SO THAT, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T KNOW WHERE WE ARE WITH THAT.
WHAT I WILL SAY --
THAT DOESN'T SOUND VERY HOPEFUL, SORRY.
MAY OR MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE.
IT'S THE BIGGEST POLLUTER IN THE WORLD.
LET ME TELL YOU WHERE WE ARE.
6-5% OF GLOBAL GDP HAS COMMITTED OVER THE LAST NINE MONTHS TO THE 1.5 DEGREES.
DO YOU THINK IT'S ACHIEVABLE?
I THINK, YES, IS IT HARD?
YOU'RE RIGHT, IT'S DAMN HARD.
VERY HARD.
BUT IT IS BETTER TO PUSH FOR THAT.
IT'S BETTER TO MAKE THAT YOUR TARGET.
WHAT WE'VE DONE, AND WE HAVE HAD ALL THE MAJOR ENVIRONMENTAL MODELERS CHECK OUR NUMBERS AND OUR PLANS.
THEY HAVE COME UP AND SAID, YES, IF YOU DO WHAT YOU SAY YOU'RE GOING TO DO, YOU HAVE A NEARLY 60% CHANCE OF ACHIEVING THE 1.5.
THE GOAL OF PARIS WAS WELL BELOW 2.
SO IF WE CAN'T HIT THE 1.5, IF WE ARE WELL BELOW 2, THAT MAY BE THE BEST.
I DON'T KNOW YET.
I'M BETTING STILL ON THE IDEA THAT WE MUST TRY TO DO OUR BEST TO HIT THE 1.5.
IF YOU DO WHAT YOU SAY YOU WILL DO, THAT HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM THROUGHOUT.
NO.
THIS IS A DIFFERENT TIME.
OKAY.
HONESTLY, CHRISTIANE.
I HAVE BEEN AT THESE MEETINGS FOR YEARS NOW, STARTING WITH 1992 WHEN I WAS IN RIO AT THE FIRST --
I COVERED IT.
YOU COVERED IT.
AND WE -- THAT WAS WHAT STARTED THIS PROCESS.
YEAH.
IT'S REGRETTABLE THAT IT'S NOW 26 COPS LATER THAT WE'RE HERE.
BUT I WILL TELL YOU THERE IS SOMETHING BIGGER, MORE ENGAGED, MORE URGENT IN WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE THAN I HAVE SEEN AT ANY OTHER COP.
AND I BELIEVE WE ARE GOING TO COME UP WITH RECORD LEVELS OF AMBITION, AND DIFFERENT FROM ALL THE PAST WE HAVE PRIVATE SECTOR COMING TO THE TABLE IN WAYS THAT WE HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE.
I WANT TO STOP YOU THERE.
IT'S, OBVIOUSLY, CLEAR ABOUT THE CARS AND RENEWABLES AND ELECTRIC CARS.
YOU HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE.
YES.
WHAT ABOUT THE FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES WHO WERE BEFORE CONGRESS TO EXPLAIN WHY THEY HAVE BEEN POTENTIALLY MISLEADING THE AMERICAN ON ALL OF THIS STUFF.
SURE.
YOU KNOW, THEN YOU HAVE THE REPUBLICANS WHO SAY, CONGRATULATIONS, CHEVRON, CONGRATULATIONS, ALL OF YOU FOR ACTUALLY DIGGING FOR OIL AND NATURAL GAS, WHILE THE PRESIDENT IS TELLING FOREIGN COUNTRIES, THE OPEC COUNTRIES AND THOSE G 2 TO DIG FOR OIL AND GAS.
THERE IS DISCONNECT THERE.
NO, THERE IS NO DISCONNECT.
OKAY.
OR TO PRODUCE MORE FOSSIL FUEL ENERGY.
THERE IS NO DISCONNECT.
ALL RIGHT.
TRANSLATE THE --
I WILL TRANSLATE THAT.
YES, I WILL.
WE ARE WHERE WE ARE IN OUR ECONOMIES IN THE GLOBAL MARKETPLACE.
YOU CAN'T JUST SHUT IT OFF TOMORROW.
YOU CAN'T EVEN SHUT IT OFF IN SIX MONTHS.
WHY DO YOU ASK FOR MORE.
JUST A MINUTE.
YOU CAN BECAUSE YOU NEED TO STABILIZE THE MARKETPLACE, BRING THE PRICES DOWN AND EMPOWER US TO MAKE THIS TRANSITION IN AN ORDERLY AND JUST WAY.
WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE WORKERS SUDDENLY THROWN OUT AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOUR ECONOMIES ARE CRATERING.
THIS HAS TO BE DONE IN A SMART AND DOABLE --
DO WE HAVE TIME, MR.
SECRETARY?
WE HAVE TIME OVER THIS NEXT DECADE TO MAKE THIS TRANSITION.
YOU HAVE GOT TO BEGIN TO SHUT CERTAIN COAL PLANTS IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE WORLD AND TRANSITION INTO ALTERNATIVE RENEWABLE GREEN HYDROGEN, WHATEVER IT'S GOING TO BE.
HYDRO, A MIX OF SOLAR, WIND, SOME GAS, AND CLEARLY THERE IS AN ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE AN ALTERNATIVE TO COAL-FIRED POWER PLANTS WHICH ARE THE PRINCIPAL PROBLEM TODAY.
LET'S GO TO CHINA THEN, ABOUT THAT PRINCIPAL PROBLEM, WHICH AS YOU SAY THEY HAVEN'T YET -- SOME WOULD SAY THEY HAVEN'T -- MADE ANY PLEDGES.
AND THERE IS A RISING --
WELL, CHINA HAS SAID THEY ARE GOING TO STRICTLY LIMIT COAL.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS YET.
CHINA HAS SAID THEY --
I THOUGHT THEY SAID THEY ARE BUILDING MORE COAL PLANTS AND STRICTLY LIMITING WHAT THEY ARE DOING OVERSEAS.
NO, NO, NO.
THEY HAVE ISSUED INSTRUCTIONS TO THEIR PROVINCES, TO THE LEADERS IN THE VARIOUS PARTS.
COUNTRY THEY HAVE TO ADHERE TO A CERTAIN STANDARD.
WE DON'T THINK THAT IS BIG ENOUGH, STRONG ENOUGH.
WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS WORK WITH CHINA TO -- IN A COOPERATIVE WAY SHOW HOW THEY COULD, IN FACT, SPEED UP THE TRANSITION.
WITHOUT CHALLENGING THEM IN ANY PERSONAL WAY, BUT TRYING TO BRING THEM ONBOARD TO BE PART OF THIS EFFORT IN A SIGNIFICANT WAY.
CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION?
THEY WILL NEED TO TRANSITION OFF OF COAL FASTER.
ABSOLUTELY.
NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
THERE IS KIND OF A GROWING CHORUS, THAT'S MY TERM, OF PEOPLE ASKING WHETHER THE UNITED STATES FOREIGN POLICY DESCRIBED BY MANY AS AGGRESSIVE TOWARDS CHINA AND RUSSIA AND THE PRESIDENT CALLED OUT BOTH CHINA AND RUSSIA AT THE G20 FOR NOT BEING HERE, NOT COMING UP WITH THE RIGHT COMMITMENTS ON CLIMATE.
THAT'S YOUR PRESIDENT.
HE SAID THEY ARE NOT STEPPING UP WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMATE.
THE FOREIGN POLICY MAY BE AT ODDS WITH YOUR DESIRE TO ALSO COOPERATE AND BRING THEM TO THE TABLE ON THESE MAIN ISSUES.
WE HAVE BEEN CRYSTAL CLEAR.
CLIMATE IS NOT A BILATERAL STRATEGIC TOOL.
DO THEY GET THAT?
I BELIEVE, AND I HOPE THEY DO, YES.
I THINK THAT CHINA, THEY CERTAINLY HAVE SAID THAT THEY AGREE.
BUT IT IS -- IT IS -- YOU KNOW, IT'S UNDENIABLE THAT SOME OF THE OTHER ISSUES HAVE NOW IMPACTED SOME OF THIS RELATIONSHIP.
BUT PRESIDENT BIDEN REACHED OUT.
HE HAD A TELEPHONE CALL WITH PRESIDENT XI.
IT WAS A VERY GOOD CALL.
BOTH LEADERS AGREED THAT THEY WANTED TO MOVE FORWARD ON CLIMATE.
BOTH LEADERS AGREED THEY WANTED TO MEET AND BEGIN TO DEAL WITH THE OTHER ISSUES.
SO THAT IS THE OPERATIVE, YOU KNOW, PLAN ON THE TABLE, IS THEY WILL MEET AT AN APPROPRIATE TIME TO BE ANNOUNCED, OBVIOUSLY, BY THE WHITE HOUSE.
BUT --
CAN YOU TELL US WHEN?
NO, I HAVE NO CLUE WHEN.
THAT WILL BE A BIG DEAL.
AND VIRTUALLY OR OTHERWISE.
AND IN THE MEANTIME PRESIDENT XI WAS QUITE CLEAR ABOUT WANTING TO TRY TO FIND A PATHWAY TO COOPERATE ON THE CLIMATE ISSUE.
IT'S AS EXISTENTIAL TO CHINA AS IT IS TO US.
IT'S AS CRITICAL TO CHINESE CITIZENS AS IT IS TO US.
THEY WANT TO BE RID OF POLLUTION.
THEY WANT CLEANER AIR.
THEY WANT GREATER LIFE.
THEY WANT GREATER SECURITY.
I BELIEVE, YOU KNOW -- I AM CONVINCED THAT KNOWING WHAT WE DID WITH PRESIDENT OBAMA IN THOSE YEARS, WITH VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN, WE WERE ABLE TO MESSAGE OUR DIFFERENCES WITH RESPECT TO CHINA, AND I BELIEVE THE CHINESE UNDERSTAND FULL WELL HOW TO DO THAT AND I BELIEVE THEY ALSO KNOW IT IS CRITICAL FOR ALL OF US TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE.
SO I'M VERY HOPEFUL.
I KNOW PRESIDENT XI HAS BEEN THE PERSON REALLY LEADING CHINA'S DECISIONS ON THIS.
HE IS THE ONE WHO IS MAKING THE DECISIONS.
MY HOPE IS THAT YET IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS THERE IS ROOM PERHAPS TO MAKE SOME PROGRESS.
WHO KNOWS?
YOU MENTIONED THE YEARS OF AMERICA, YOU KNOW, NEGOTIATING ON CLIMATE.
SOMETIMES IT'S UP.
SOMETIMES IT'S DOWN, RIGHT?
PRESIDENT W. BUSH PULLED OUT, THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION NEGOTIATED, PRESIDENT TRUMP PULLED OUT OF PARIS, THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION NEGOTIATED.
WHAT IS CONVINCING YOUR FELLOW DELEGATES HERE AND WORLD LEADERS YOU WON'T PULL OUT AGAIN, WHATEVER IS ACHIEVED HERE?
FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS NO WAY POSSIBLE THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS GOING TO PULL OUT.
NOT PRESIDENT BIDEN.
AFTER PRESIDENT BIDEN.
I KNOW THAT.
I'M TALKING ABOUT THE NEXT THREE AND A HALF YEARS.
OKAY.
SO YOU HAVE THREE AND A HALF YEARS.
AND I AM -- I AM ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED NOT BECAUSE OF POLITICS OR IDEOLOGY, BUT FACTS, THE AMOUNT OF MONEY, THE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT ARE NOW MOVING TO BE INVESTED IN INDUSTRY, IN TRANSPORTATION, IN, YOU KNOW, VARIOUS PRODUCTION FACILITIES, IN GAS, IN POWERING COMPANIES AND HOW -- POWERING, YOU KNOW, HOMES AND CORPORATIONS, AND HOW WE PRODUCE OUR ENERGY, ELECTRICITY.
90% OF THE ELECTRICITY COME ONLINE IN THE UNITED STATES IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, THE GLOBE, AS A MATTER OF FACT, THE PLANET, HAS COME FROM RENEWABLES.
THAT'S NOT REVERSIBLE BY ANY ONE POLITICIAN.
IT IS NOT REVERSIBLE.
WHEN FORD MOTOR COMPANY AND GENERAL MOTORS HAVE RETOOLED ALL OF THEIR PRODUCTION FACILITIES FOR THEIR AUTOMOBILES, THAT'S TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF INVESTMENT.
THAT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE ALL OF A SUDDEN.
WE ARE GOING TO BE ON ELECTRIC TRACK 50% OF VEHICLES IN AMERICA BY VIRTUE OF GOAL THE PRESIDENT SET WITH THE AUTO INDUSTRY WILL BE ELECTRIC.
BY 2035, NO MORE INTUNNEL COMBUSTION ENGINE CARS.
SO WE'RE MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION.
PRESIDENT BIDEN SET A GOAL BY 2035 WE WILL HAVE A POWER SECTOR THAT IS CARBON FREE.
ARE YOU DISAPPOINTED BY YOUR -- I AM NOT SURE THERE WAS A -- WHEN YOU WERE A SENATOR, JOE MANCHIN WHO SAID NO TO THE MOST AMBITIOUS AND REVOLUTIONARY PART OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S'S BUILD BACK BETTER PLAN --
I AM NOT GOING TO GET INVOLVED IN DISCUSSIONS BETWEEN THE WHITE HOUSE AND CONGRESS.
I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN CONGRESS.
ULTIMATELY, I BELIEVE SOMETHING WILL PASS.
IT'S UP TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE CONGRESS TO NEGOTIATE THAT.
WHAT I DO BELIEVE IS CRITICAL IS THAT WE, THE UNITED STATES, CONTINUE OVER THESE NEXT DAYS HERE IN GLASGOW AND WE WILL, TO CONTINUE TO RAISE AMBITION.
THERE WILL BE MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENTS OF BUSINESSES COMING TO THE TABLE TO CREATE NEW MARKETS.
WE JUST DID A PHOTOGRAPH WITH THE -- WHAT'S CALLED THE FIRST MOVER COALITION.
AMAZON HAS NOW JOINED IT WITH DHL, UNITED AIRLINES, WITH OTHER -- APPLE.
VARIOUS PARTICIPANTS.
BIG COMPANIES THAT WILL MAKE PUBLIC COMMITMENTS TO THE AMOUNT OF PRODUCTS THEY WILL BUY IN THEIR SUPPLY CHAIN THAT ARE GREEN.
I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT HAPPENING HERE.
I CAN'T SUMMARIZE IT YET.
WE ARE ONLY ON DAY TWO.
BUT I BELIEVE THAT THE AMBITION WILL BE RAISED TO THE LEVEL WE HAVE NOT YET SEEN.
YOU KNOW, YOU GOT TO WORK WITH WHAT YOU'VE GOT TO WORK WITH, AND WE'RE TRYING TO MOLD THIS THING IN THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE TO RAISE AMBITIONS SUFFICIENTLY THAT THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM THE PAST, AND THERE IS A LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY, CHRISTIAN AN.
WE HAVE WALLS CALLED IN THE ARCANE MANNER OF THE NEGOTIATING PROCESS A THING CALLED THE RULE BOOK.
AND THE RULE BOOK ARE THE RULES BY WHICH WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE MEASURING, HOW TO MEASURE IT, WHAT'S THE MARKETPLACE.
WE KNOW WHAT IS GREEN WASHING AND WHAT ISN'T.
THAT, I BELIEVE, COULD GET COMPLETED HERE.
THAT WOULD ALSO BE A BIG CONTRIBUTION AND IMPORTANT SECRETARY KERRY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
THANK YOU.
IT WILL BE UP TO THE NEGOTIATORS.
THE MAIN LEADERS ARE LEAVING TODAY AND LEAVING THEIR NEGOTIATORS HERE TO HAMMER OUT THE REST OF THESE DEALS.
> FROM THE EXISTENTIAL CRISIS OF OUR TIMES TO THE PANDEMIC THAT WE'VE ENDURED NEARLY TWO YEARS, BOTH OF COURSE HAVE BEEN MIRED IN THE TOXIC SPREAD OF DISINFORMATION AND DENIAL.
AS DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH, DR.
FRANCIS COLLINS HAS BEEN GUIDING THE UNITED STATES THROUGH THE COVID CRISIS.
HE RECENTLY ANNOUNCED HE WILL STEP DOWN AFTER 12 YEARS AND THREE PRESIDENTS.
AND HERE HE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON HOW GRAPPLING WITH VACCINE RESISTANCE AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES WAS ONE OF HIS MOST DIFFICULT CHALLENGES AS DIRECTOR.
THANK YOU, CHRISTIANN.
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
GLAD TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.
AFTER 12 YEARS AS A DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH, YOU DID IT THROUGH OBAMA'S TERM AND THEN STAYED ON THROUGH DONALD TRUMP AND THEN FOR JOE BIDEN AS WE GOT TO THE LAST STAGES OF THIS FOURTH WAVE.
BUT THEN YOU DECIDED TO RETIRE FROM THE DIRECTORSHIP.
TELL ME ABOUT MAKING THAT DECISION.
IT WAS NOT AN EASY DECISION.
IT TOOK ME MANY WEEKS TO WRESTLE WITH IT.
I HOPE NOBODY THINKS I JUST HAD A BAD DAY AND SAID, OKAY, I'M DONE WITH IT.
NO, IT WAS NOT THAT.
12 YEARS IS A LONG TIME, WALTER.
NO OTHER PRESIDENTIALLY APPOINTED DIRECTOR HAS LASTED MORE THAN ABOUT HALF THAT.
SO I WAS KIND OF HITTING MY SHELF LIFE.
AND I REALLY FELT IF I WAS NOT GOING TO STAY FOR AN ENTIRE ADDITIONAL PRESIDENTIAL TERM, I NEEDED TO GIVE THE PRESIDENT A CHANCE TO IDENTIFY A NEW DIRECTOR AND GET THEM NOMINATED AND CONFIRMED BY THE SENATE, WHICH ISN'T ALWAYS AN EASY PROCESS, BEFORE IT GOT LATER IN THE TERM.
SO I HAD TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WAS THE RIGHT TIMING AND HOW TO DO THE RIGHT THING HERE IN TERMS OF WHAT IS GOOD FOR THE INSTITUTION, BECAUSE I LOVE THE NIH AND I WANT TO DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO BE SURE IT STAYS IN THE BEST POSSIBLE PLACE.
AND IT WAS A BIT OF A CHALLENGE HERE BECAUSE COVID HAS BEEN SO COMPLETELY DOMINATING OF EVERYTHING THAT NIH HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN, AND I HAVE BEEN DEEPLY INTO THAT FOR THE LAST 22 MONTHS.
I DIDN'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING TO DISRUPT THE MOMENTUM THERE, WHICH HAS BEEN AMAZING.
SCIENCE HAS REALLY RISEN TO THE CHALLENGE HERE.
ONE OF THE THINGS YOU ARE NOTED FOR DOING DURING YOUR TENURE IS YOUR HUMILITY.
A TRAIT NOT OFTEN FOUND IN GOVERNMENT THESE DAYS.
AND THE CORONAVIRUS, IT SEEMS LIKE ONE OF ITS SIDE EFFECTS IS TO INCREASE OUR HUMILITY BECAUSE IT SO BAFFLES US SO MANY TIMES.
WHAT IS IT THIS CORONAVIRUS THAT WE DON'T KNOW THAT YOU WISH WE UNDERSTOOD BETTER?
WELL, IT SURE HAS BEEN AN EVOLVING EXPERIENCE OF SCIENTIFIC HUMILITY.
WHEN YOU THINK YOU HAVE GOT YOUR MIND AROUND WHAT THIS VIRUS IS CAPABLE OF, ANOTHER CURVEBALL COMES AT YOU.
THE BIGGEST CURVEBALL IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS THE DELTA VARIANT WITH ITS EXTREMELY HIGH CONTAGIOUSNESS, WHICH PRETTY MUCH SAID, WE'RE HAVING A DIFFERENT PANDEMIC NOW THAN WE DID IN 2020 BECAUSE THIS VIRUS BEHAVES SO DIFFERENTLY.
YEAH, WE WERE NOT REALLY PREPARED FOR THAT.
THAT KIND OF WRECKED A LITTLE BIT OF OUR SIMPLER IDEAS OF FULL IMMUNITY, ENOUGH OF THE POPULATION IMMUNIZED OR HAVING HAD A PRIOR INFECTION, THAT THE VIRUS WOULD BE DRIVEN AWAY.
WE DIDN'T GET THERE.
OF COURSE, THAT'S NOT JUST BECAUSE THE VIRUS CHANGED.
WE ALSO FAILED, REALLY, TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE, APPARENTLY, TO 60 MILLION PEOPLE THAT THEY WOULD WANT THIS VACCINE.
WALTER, THAT HAS BEEN THE MOST SURPRISING AND DISHEARTENING PART OF THE LAST 22 MONTHS.
SCIENCE REALLY STEPPED FORWARD HERE BRINGING TOGETHER ALL OF THE BRIGHT BRAINS FROM PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTORS WITH RESOURCES SUPPLIED BY THE GOVERNMENT AND CAME UP WITH VACCINES THAT ARE UNBELIEVABLY SAFE AND EFFECTIVE.
BETTER THAN WE DARED TO HOPE FOR, AND YET HERE WE ARE ALMOST A YEAR AFTER THOSE APPROVALS WHERE THERE IS STILL SUBSTANTIAL FRACTION OF OUR SOCIETY, A TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED SOCIETY, OR SO WE THOUGHT, WHO ARE RESISTANT TO TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THIS.
AND WHO ARE DYING EVERY DAY BY 1,000 OR MORE IN AN UNNECESSARY WAY.
THE MOST SURPRISING STATISTIC ALONG THOSE LINES WAS THAT 70 TO 75% OF SOME PARTS OF THE NIH, PEOPLE WHO WORK AT THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH, ONLY 70 TO 75% ARE VACCINATED.
WHY IS THAT?
YEAH, WHY, INDEED?
IF WE LOOK AT OUR EMPLOYEES, FEDERAL EMPLOYEES WHO ARE DIRECTLY ENGAGED IN RESEARCH OR IN-PATIENT CARE, BECAUSE WE RUN A HOSPITAL, THEY ARE THE PERCENTAGES ABOVE 90%. BUT WE HAVE A WHOLE BUNCH, THOUSANDS OF CONTRACTORS WHO TAKE CARE OF THE GROUNDS AND THE CAFETERIAS AND THE MAINTENANCE OF THE BUILDINGS AND THAT'S ACROSS SECTION OF THE U.S. LIKE ANY OTHER GROUP YOU MIGHT SEE, AND THEY ARE AFFLICTED BY THE SAME SET OF CONCERNS, MUCH OF IT BASED ON MISINFORMATION OR EVEN DISINFORMATION THAT HAS REFLECTED THEIR RESISTANCE.
NOW, WE ARE GOING TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS BECAUSE THEY ALSO ARE NOW REQUIRED TO BE VACCINATED BY DECEMBER THE 8th OR RISK LOSING THEIR JOBS, AND I THINK THAT PROBABLY WILL WAKE UP A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN SORT OF ON THE FENCE OR PUTTING IT OFF.
BUT THERE WILL CERTAINLY BE SOME WHO ARE VERY ACTIVELY RESISTANT FOR VARIOUS REASONS, AND THIS COULD BE A TOUGH FEW WEEKS.
YOU AND I ARE VERY MUCH IN FAVOR OF THESE VACCINES, OF COURSE.
I WAS EVEN IN AN EARLY TRIAL FOR THE VACCINES AND HAVE HAD THE BOOSTER SHOT.
BUT I KIND OF GET WHY TEAM MAY RESIST SAYING THE GOVERNMENT IS FORCING ME TO GET A VACCINE.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT RESISTANCE?
I DO.
AND I REALLY WISH THE MANDATES WERE NOT NECESSARY BECAUSE THE LOGIC BEHIND THE VACCINATION IS SO COMPELLING.
WE NEVER SHOULD HAVE HAD TO DO THIS.
BUT WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT THE COUNTRY IS AT RISK WHEN SUCH A SUBSTANTIAL PROPORTION OF ITS POPULATION IS NOT VACCINATED, THE GOVERNMENT HAS AN INTEREST IN TRYING TO ARE PROTECT ITS CITIZENS GOING WAY BACK TO 1905.
THE SUPREME COURT AGREED THIS IS A ROLE FOR THE GOVERNMENT WHEN THERE IS A PUBLIC HEALTH RISK OF A MAJOR SORT, AND THAT'S CERTAINLY TRUE HERE.
YEAH, I WISH IT HADN'T BEEN NECESSARY BUT I THINK IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO IT.
INTERESTINGLY, WALTER, I HEARD FROM A FEW PEOPLE THIS STORY THAT THEY WERE RESISTANT TO VACCINATION BECAUSE IT SORT IS A PART OF THE TRIBE THEY ARE INVOLVED IN AND THEIR SOCIAL CIRCLE, THEIR BUBBLE, EVERYBODY IS LIKE, NO, WE HAVE TO FIGHT THIS OFF BECAUSE GOVERNMENT IS INVADING OUR LIBERTIES AND MAYBE THEY HAVE EMBRACED SOME OF THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT ARE OUT THERE.
BUT THEY WEREN'T SURE THEY BELIEVED THAT STUFF.
BUT TO ACTUALLY GO AND VOLUNTARILY GET VACCINATED PUT THEM AT SOME RISK OF MAYBE BEING SEEN AS NOT QUITE WITH THE GROUP, AND NOW IF THEY ARE FORCED TO DO IT, THEY CAN COMPLAIN ABOUT IT, BUT IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT.
SO MAYBE THAT'S HELPING A LITTLE BIT HERE IN TERMS OF GETTING OVER THE RESISTANCE.
I DON'T WANT TO BE PATERNALISTIC ABOUT THAT, BUT I HAVE HEARD THAT KIND OF MOTIVATION FROM A FEW PEOPLE.
MODERNA SAID OVER THE WEEKEND THAT IT NEEDS TO REASSESS ITS DATA FOR 12 TO 17-YEAR-OLDS FOR THE USE OF ITS VACCINE.
WHAT ARE THEY LOOKING INTO AND WHEN MIGHT THEY BE ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT?
FOR THE MODERNA AND THE PFIZER mRNA VACCINES, THERE HAVE BEEN RARE REPORTS OF MYOCARDITIS OR PAIR OWE CARDITIS OF PEOPLE WHO GOT THE TWO INITIAL DOSES.
IT SEEMS THAT THE MOST VULNERABLE GROUP FOR THIS IS YOUNG MALES BETWEEN 12 AND 30.
MODERNA IS LOOKING AGAIN TO SEE WHETHER THEIR VACCINE IS PARTICULARLY PRONE TO THIS.
NORDIC COUNTRIES STEAM TO THINK MODERNA HAD MORE OF THIS THAN PFIZER.
I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT DATA CONVINCINGLY.
LET'S BE CLEAR.
THIS IS A RARE EVENT, MAYBE 1 IN 5,000, IN THAT HIGH-RISK GROUP, AND IT'S A REVERSIBLE, TREATABLE CONDITION WITH APPARENTLY NO LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES.
SO IF YOU HAD TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THAT MYOCARDITIS AND GETTING COVID-19, YOU ARE BETTER OFF TO GET THE VACCINE.
BUT STILL I THINK THEY WANT TO BE REALLY CAREFUL.
THESE ARE, AFTER ALL, DATA POINTS THAT EVERYBODY WANTS TO BE SURE ARE RIGHT.
DO YOU REALLY FEEL THAT EVERY PARENT SHOULD HAVE, SAY, A 5-YEAR-OLD VACCINATED?
I THINK EVERY PARENT OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO LOOK AT THE BENEFITS AND RISKS AND HAVE THE INFORMATION THEY NEED IN FRONT OF THEM.
PARENTS ARE PRETTY SMART ABOUT THIS, FIGURING OUT WHAT IS BEST FOR THEIR KIDS.
I HAVE ALL THAT DATA BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN STUDYING IT FURIOUSLY EVER SINCE PFIZER SUBMITTED IT.
OF COURSE, IN LAST WEEK'S FDA MEETING AND THIS WEEK'S CDC MEETING THERE IS A VERY PUBLIC DISCUSSION BY EXPERTS ABOUT THIS, AND I'M CONVINCED, IF I HAD A 5-YEAR-OLD SON OR DAUGHTER OR MAYBE A GRANDCHILD, I WOULD SAY THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS WORTH DOING.
THIS HAS GOT A WHOLE LOT MORE BENEFITS THAN IT DOES RISKS.
THE RISKS SEEM TO BE PRETTY LOW, BASICALLY.
A SORE ARM, MAYBE A LITTLE FEVER THAT FIRST 24 HOURS.
OTHER THAN THAT, WE DON'T REALLY SEE THERE IS MUCH OF A REASON TO BE CONCERNED.
YOU ARE A PERSON OF DEEP FAITH.
HAVE YOU BEEN SURPRISED HOW THE FAITH COMMUNITIES HAVE SOMETIMES RESISTED BOTH VACCINES AND MASK MANDATES?
YEAH, WALTER, THIS A SOURCE OF HEARTACHE.
I'M A EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN, THAT TEAMS TO BE THE COMMUNITY WHERE THERE HAS BEEN PARTICULAR SKEPTICISM ABOUT MASKS AND ABOUT VACCINES.
MUCH OF IT GETS ALL TANGLED UP WITH POLITICS, BECAUSE THOSE ARE ALSO COMMUTES THAT TEND TO BE CONSERVATIVE AND OFTENTIMES HAVE EMBRACED SOME OF THE RHETORIC COMING FROM THE RIGHT, WHICH MAY IN SOME INSTANCES REALLY NOT BE BASED ON SCIENCE AT ALL, BUT RATHER BASED UPON AN EFFORT TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE OTHER PARTY.
I DO THINK THIS IS A SERIOUS SITUATION AND I HAVE DONE A BUNCH OF PODCASTS WITH PEOPLE LIKE RICK WARREN AND FRANKLIN GRAHAM TO TRY TO GET A MESSAGE OUT THERE TO PASTORS AND TO MEMBERS OF CONGREGATIONS THAT THIS IS SERIOUS STUFF.
IT'S NOT SUFFICIENT TO JUST ACCEPT SOME ARGUMENT ABOUT MASKS OR VACCINES BECAUSE IT CAME FROM SOME POLITICAL VOICE OR SOME RIGHT-WING MEDIA.
YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S TRUE HERE.
AFTER ALL, OUR FAITH IS BASED UPON TRUTH.
IF WE LOSE THAT, WE'VE LOST THE WHOLE THING.
JESUS' WORDS, TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.
IF WE ARE SLIPPING AWAY FROM THAT.
AND I FEAR THE CHURCH IN MANY INSTANCES HAS LOST THAT ANCHOR.
THAT'S A REALLY SERIOUS CONCERN.
NOT JUST ABOUT COVID, BUT ABOUT OUR FUTURE IN MANY OTHER WAYS.
YOU TALK ABOUT THE CONFLICT SOMETIMES BETWEEN SCIENCE AND RELIGION, BUT NOWADAYS WE HAVEN'T AN EVEN WORSE CONFLICT IT SEEMS, WHICH IS BETWEEN SCIENCE AND POLITICS.
WHY HAS POLITICS SO INFECTED OUR ABILITY TO BE OBJECTIVE WHEN WE LOOK AT SCIENCE?
WALTER, I DON'T KNOW.
AND HERE AGAIN I WORRY ABOUT THE STATE OF OUR NATION THAT WHAT SEEMS TO DOMINATE EVERY BEHAVIOR THAT'S CHOSEN IS NOT WHAT THE FACTS ARE.
IT'S LIKE, OKAY, WHAT KIND OF POINTS CAN I SCORE AGAINST THE OTHER PEOPLE?
WE ARE SO DIVIDED.
WE ARE INTO OUR TRIBES.
AND IT SEEMS AS IF THAT'S PARTICULARLY MALIGNANTLY PRESENT IN POLITICS.
AND SO I SEE REGULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE REPRESENTING THE PEOPLE WHO OUGHT TO BE THINKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN THE TRUTH THAT THEY NEED TO HEAR CHOOSING A DIRECTION THAT THEY MUST AT SOME LEVEL KNOW IS NOT ACTUALLY FACTUAL AND PUTTING IT FORWARD TO SCORE POLITICAL POINTS.
BE MORE SPECIFIC.
WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
OH, I DON'T WANT TO NAME NAMES.
THERE IS PLENTY OF PEOPLE ONE COULD POINT TO HERE.
BUT JUST AS I SAID ABOUT THE CHURCH, WE'RE LOSING AN ANCHOR TO THE TRUTH, IS A SERIOUS ONE COULD SAY THE SAME ABOUT POLITICS AND ABOUT OUR SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.
IF WE HAVE LOST THE CHANCE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOMEBODY'S OPINION OR SOMEBODY'S MOST RECENT POLITICAL STATEMENT OR SOMEBODY'S FEELINGS AND NOT -- AND PLACE THOSE AS IF THEY HAD THE SAME VALUE AS SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, WE'RE IN DEEP TROUBLE.
WE'RE FACING TWO EPIDEMICS.
AN EPIDEMIC CAUSED BY A NATURAL VIRUS, BUT ALSO AN EPIDEMIC CAUSED BY ELECTRONIC VIRUSES, THE SPREAD OF MISINFORMATION AND PURPOSEFUL DISINFORMATION.
HOW DO WE FIGHT THAT SECOND EPIDEMIC, WHICH ACTUALLY IS LIKE A VIRAL PANDEMIC?
PEOPLE SPREADING THINGS, THE LIES EVOLVE, AND THEY BECOME STRONGER.
I DON'T FAULT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CONFUSED AND FEARFUL RIGHT NOW ABOUT COVID-19 AND WHETHER THE VACCINES ARE SAFE.
I DON'T FAULT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE REALLY NOT FIGURED OUT WHETHER CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL BECAUSE THEY ARE BARRAGED WITH ALL OF THIS INFORMATION.
I DO FAULT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DISTRIBUTING THAT INFORMATION.
KNOWING IT TO BE FALSE.
THAT IS THE KIND OF BEHAVIOR THAT A HUMAN BEING SHOULD NOT EMBRACE WITHOUT HAVING A PANG OF SOME SORT OF SENSE OF HAVING CROSSED A MORAL LINE.
AND IT'S NOT JUST NOW THAT WE'RE HAVING THIS SORT OF SOCIAL DISAGREEMENT.
THIS IS KILLING PEOPLE, WALTER, LITERALLY.
YOU KNOW, 100,000 PEOPLE ESTIMATED TO HAVE DIED FROM COVID-19 NEEDLESSLY, UNVACCINATED, MOST OF THEM BECAUSE SOMEBODY GAVE THEM INFORMATION THAT WAS DEMONSTRABLY FALSE THAT SAID YOU DON'T WANT THIS VACCINE, IT'S DANGEROUS.
100,000 DEATHS.
OUR CULTURE WARS ARE KILLING PEOPLE.
ARE YOU DISAPPOINTED THAT THE WUHAN INSTITUTE HASN'T BEEN MORE FORTHCOMING AND THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT HASN'T BEEN MORE FORTHCOMING IN LOOKING AT THE ORIGINS OF THIS PANDEMIC?
I AM DISAPPOINTED BECAUSE WE NEED TO KNOW HOW THIS GOT STARTED.
I CAN TELL YOU THAT NONE OF THE RESEARCH WE FUNDED AT THE WUHAN INSTITUTE COULD POSSIBLY HAVE LED TO SARS COVID TWO.
WE WERE FUNDING A TINY PROPORTION OF THEIR BUDGET.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO THINK MAYBE THEY HAD ACTUALLY ISOLATED SARS-CoV-2 A FEW MONTHS BEFORE IT ALL BURST OUT AND MAYBE THERE WAS EVEN A LAB ACCIDENT.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THAT AT ALL.
NONE.
BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE BETTER IF THEY OPENED THEIR LAB BOOKS AND LET PEOPLE LOOK AT WHAT THEY WERE UP TO.
SO, YEAH, I THINK CHINA HAS REALLY STONEWALLED THIS WHOLE EFFORT, AND THEY CONTINUE TO.
AND THAT'S UNFORTUNATE.
WE NEED TO KNOW EXACTLY HOW THIS STARTED.
MORE THAN 20 YEARS AGO YOU WERE ON THE COVER OF 'TIME' MAGAZINE BECAUSE YOU HELPED LEAD THE TEAMS THAT SEQUENCED THE HUMAN GENOME.
IN OTHER WORDS, FOUND OUT EXACTLY WHERE OUR GENES ARE CODED IN OUR DNA.
THAT DIDN'T ACTUALLY LEAD TO AS NOW WITH THE ADVENT OF THE USE OF RNA AND MESSENGER RNA, WE ARE ABLE TO MAKE USE OF WHAT YOU DID MORE THAN 20 YEARS AGO.
TELL ME ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW THAT MAKES WHAT YOU DID IN SEQUENCING THE HUMAN GENOME SO IMPORTANT NOW.
WELL, IT'S INVOLVING ALMOST EVERYTHING WE ARE DOING IN MEDICAL RESEARCH.
WALTER, THIS IS THE FIRST LAW OF TECHNOLOGY, WHICH IS A MAJOR SCIENTIFIC ADVANCE ALWAYS IS OVERESTIMATED IN THE SHORT RUN AND UNDERESTIMATED IN THE LONG RUN.
I THINK THAT'S TRUE OF THE HUMAN GENOME PROJECT.
THERE WERE PEOPLE SAYING THIS IS GOING TO TRANSFORM YOUR MEDICAL CARE IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS, AND THAT WAS FANCIFUL AND THERE IS NO WAY THAT COULD HAPPEN.
I WILL SAY IT HAS TRANSFORMED ASPECT OF MEDICAL CARE, LIKE CANCER, FOR INSTANCE, WHERE ALMOST EVERYONE WHO GETS A CANCER WILL WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S THE GENOME SEQUENCE OF THOSE TUMOR CELLS AND HOW COULD YOU USE THAT IN CHOOSING THE RIGHT THERAPY.
IT'S TRANSFORMED MANAGEMENT OF MYSTERIOUS CASES IN THE NEWBORN ICU.
YOU CAN GET THAT AND MAKE A DIAGNOSIS.
IN THE RESEARCH AREA IT'S TRANSFORMED EVERYTHING WE DO IN THE LABORATORY.
BUT YOU'RE RIGHT.
WHEN IT COMES TO RNA, WHICH IS THE MESSAGE THAT IS PRODUCED FROM READING OUT A DNA SEQUENCE, THAT HAS BECOME THE MAINSTAY OF OUR BEST PROTECTION AGAINST COVID-19 AND OTHER INFECTIOUS DISEASES WITH THE mRNA VACCINES.
THAT TOOK 25 YEARS OF HARD WORK TO GET THERE.
WE JUST ANNOUNCED A FEW DAYS AGO PUBLIC/PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP, THE BESPOKE GENE THERAPY CONSORTIUM, TO SEE IF WE CAN ACCELERATE THAT PROCESS WORKING WITH FDA AND ABOUT TEN COMPANIES AND SEE WHETHER WE CAN REGULATE THE APPROACH TO THOSE GENE DISORDERS THAT ARE RARE ENOUGH THAT THEY DON'T GET MUCH ATTENTION, BUT COLLECTIVELY INVOLVE ABOUT 30 MILLION PEOPLE.
I AM PRETTY EXCITED ABOUT THAT.
NONE THAT WOULD HAPPEN IF IT HADN'T BEEN THE FOUNDATION OF THE HUMAN GENOME PROJECT.
AS YOU YOU RETIRE, YOU WILL STILL NEED MAKE A LIVING.
DO YOU THINK YOUR AFFORDABLE ROCK AND ROLL BAND ACT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE SOMETHING YOU COULD TAKE ON THE ROAD?
WELL, IT MIGHT BE FUN TO DO THAT, BUT I DON'T THINK I WOULD COUNT ON THAT.
WE DO HAVE A GOOD TIME.
THE AFFORDABLE ROCK 'N ROLL ACT IS MADE UP OF SCIENTISTS WHO HAVE DAY JOBS IN THE CLINIC OR LABORATORY.
THEY ARE AN AMAZING BUNCH OF MUSICIANS AND WE DO HAVE A GOOD TIME.
TEN OR 12 OF US, DEPENDING WHO IS AVAILABLE.
YEAH, I THINK WE MAKE SOME PRETTY GOOD MUSIC.
AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU ARE OUT THERE WITH THE BAND, WHEN IT'S CLICKING AND YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE OUT DANCING, IT'S AN EXPERIENCE THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO PASS UP.
WE HAVE HAD TO PASS IT UP FOR TWO YEARS BECAUSE OF COVID.
I HOPE WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET BACK OUT THERE SOON.
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
GREAT TO TALK TO YOU.
IT WAS A FUN CONVERSATION.
> ROCK AND ROLL AND THE HUMAN GENOME.
> FINALLY TONIGHT, THE LATE KATHARINE GRAHAM, FORMER PUBLISHER OF 'THE WASHINGTON POST,' WILL NOW BE IN 'THE POST' WITH HER VERY OWN POSTAL STAMP.
THE PULITZER PRIZE WINNER TOOK THE PAPER TO THE HEIGHTS OF AMERICAN JOURNALISM AND BROKE MAJOR STORIES LIKE WATERGATE.
ALWAYS STEADFAST IN THE PURSUIT OF QUALITY NEWS, SHE PROVED GOOD JOURNALISM IS ALSO VERY GOOD BUSINESS.
THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
REMEMBER YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' ON PBS AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW.