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> WELCOME TO ALLEN PURE, WHAT'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
REBELS SAY THEY ARE CLOSING IN ON ETHIOPIA'S CAPITAL, HOW WE GOT HERE, AND WHAT COULD HAPPEN NEXT.
THEN --
I OBTAINED THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF SECRET DEPOSITIONS, INTERNAL NRA EMAILS, PRIVATE DOCUMENTS THAT LET ME PAINT OF PICTURE OF WHAT REALLY HAPPENED BEHIND THE SCENES.
INSIDE THE DOWN FALL OF THE NRA, REPORTER TIM MACK TELLS ME HOW THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION MISFIRED.
ALSO AHEAD.
> EMANCIPATED ENSLAVED PEOPLE IN THE CONFEDERACY, HE WAS ACTING AGAINST WHAT HE HIMSELF HAD SAID WAS THE CONSTITUTIONAL RULE.
HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR NOAH FIELDMAN TELLESS WALTER ISAACSON WHY ABRAHAM LINCOLN TORE UP THE U.S. CONSTITUTION.
> AND FINALLY, A MAJOR MILESTONE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST COVID.
THE NEW PILL THAT'S PROTECTING THE MOST VULNERABLE.
> AMANPORU AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND, SUE AND EDGAR WALKENHEIM III, THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILL STEIN FAMILY, THE STROUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, GYM ATWOOD, AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
BERNARD AND BERNICE SCHWARTZ.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUND ERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA, WE BEGIN IN ETHIOPIA, AFTER A YEAR OF CONFLICT, REBELS ARE CLOSING IN ON THE CITY OF ADDIS -- AS ETHIOPIANS, FACE FAMINE AND A WAVE OF ATROCITIES.
TODAY IN WASHINGTON, D.C. NINE DIFFERENT REBEL GROUPS ANNOUNCED A NEW ALLIANCE.
THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY THEY WANT TO HAPPEN NEXT.
THE NEXT WOULD BE TO ORGANIZE OURSELVES, AND TOTAL DISMANTLE THE EXISTING GOVERNMENT.
EITHER BY FORCE OR BY NEGOTIATION, WHATEVER THEY WISH.
AND THEN CERTAIN TRANSITIONAL GOVERNMENT.
THE WORLD IS CALLING FOR AN END TO THE BLOODSHED IN THE U.S.
EMBASSY IS NOW ADVISING AMERICANS TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
IT WASN'T ALWAYS LIKE THIS.
IN FACT, ETHIOPIA WAS THE DARLING OF THE -- WINNING THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE TWO YEARS AGO FOR HIS EFFORTS TO RESOLVE THE BORDER CONFLICT.
HOW DID WE GET HERE?
CORRESPONDENT DAVID McKENZIE EXPLAINS IN THIS REPORT.
Reporter: THROUGH A YEAR OF BLOODY CONFLICT, ETHIOPIA'S CRISIS WAS CENTERED MOSTLY HERE IN THE FAR NORTH.
THAT'S CHANGING FAST.
THE DEFENSE FORCE REBELS SHOWN THIS WEEK, JUST 250 MILES FROM ADDIS ABABA.
THEY ARE THREATENING TO MOVE ON THE CAPITAL, AND IN AN UNLIKE LY ALLIANCE THEY'VE JOINED UP WITH THE ARMY THAT HAS LINKS TO THE COUNTRY'S LARGESTEST NICK GROUP.
-- ETHNIC GROUP.
UNITED AGAINST THIS THAN, THE PRIME MINISTER AND NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER PROMISED THE CONFLICT WOULD BE SWIFT.
HE'S ASKING CITIZENS TO TAKE UP ARMS TO DEFEND ADDIS AND THE NATION IS IN A STATE OF EMERGENCY.
BUT ACTION, EVERYONE NEED TO --
BUT THIS CONFLICT HAS EMBARRASSED ABE AND THREATENS THE VERY MAKEUP OF ETHIOPIA.
THE U.S. HAS SENT A SENIOR DIPLOMAT TO STABLE THE COLLAPSE.
WE ARE GRAVELY CONCERNED BY THE ESCALATING VIOLENCE AND THE EXPANSION OF FIGHTING WE'VE SEEN IN NORTHERN ETHIOPIA AND IN REGIONS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.
WE ARE CONCERNED WITH THE GROWING RISK TO THE UNITY AND THE INTEGRITY OF THE ETHIOPIAN STATE.
IT'S HAD HUMAN RIGHTS ATROCITIES AND KILLINGS.
HIGHLIGHTED BY CNN'S REPORTING.
AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF WITHHOLDING FOOD AID.
SOMETHING THEY DENY.
WE HAVE GROUNDS TO BELIEVE THAT DURING THIS PERIOD ALL PARTIES THROUGH THE CONFLICT HAVE COMMITTED VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS, HUMANITARIAN AND REFUGEE LAW.
SOME OF THIS MAY AMOUNT TO WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
ABE CAME INTO POWER PROMISING TO UNITE ETHIOPIAENS AND RENEW NATIONAL IDENTITY.
HE SQUEEZED THEM OUT OF POLITICAL POWER BUT ETHIOPIA IS A FRAGILE COLLECTION OF REGIONS OFTEN WITH THEIR OWN ETHNIC LOYALTIES AND MILITIAS.
AND THE MILITARY STRIKE OF THEIR ATTEMPT TO BREAK AWAY FROM FEDERAL CONTROL SET UP THIS TITANIC STRUGGLE.
ON WEDNESDAY THE CAPITAL WAS CALM, PEOPLE GOING ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS AS USUAL.
AND ETHIOPIAN GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL BLAMED THE INTERNATIONAL MEDIA FOR AN ALARMIST NARRATIVE.
BUT THE SIGHT OF THESE REBELS CALMLY WALKING THROUGH A MAJOR CITY GIVES NO DOUBT THAT ABE IS UNDER THREAT.
AND DAVID McKENZIE JOINS US FROM JOHANNESBURG.
DAVID WE HEARD IN YOUR REPORTING ABOUT THE SURPRISE ALLIANCE OF THE RIVAL FACTIONS ASKING FOR A TRANSITIONAL GOVERNMENT IN THE INTERIM.
HOW SURPRISING IS THIS ALLIANCE?
Reporter: THIS ALLIANCE IS SURPRISING BUT RIGHT NOW IT SEEMS LIKE THE ETHNIC AND REGIONAL GROUPINGS THAT MAKE UP WHAT IS OFTEN A TENUOUS NATIONAL IDENTITY IN ETHIOPIA IN SOME CASES ARE LOOKING TO PUSH ABE OUT.
YOU HAD THE THE TDF, NOT NATURAL BEDFELLOWS, MUST BE HONEST, IN THIS ALLIANCE, AT LEAST FOR NOW, SAYING THAT THEY WILL THREATEN THE CAPITAL SHOULD ABE NOT LEAVE.
IT'S A MILITARY THREAT THAT THEY HAVE ADMITTED IN RECENT HOURS TO CNN IS NOT NECESSARILY AN IMMEDIATE PUSH ON THE CAPITAL, AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS DOWNPLAYED TO US THAT THERE IS ANY THREAT TO ADDIS ABABA AT THE MOMENT.
BUT IT IS THAT POLITICAL AND I HAVE TO SAY ETHNIC PRESSURE, THE MAKEUP OF ETHIOPIA, WHICH MEANS THAT THE POLITICAL SPACE THAT ABE HAS TO MANEUVER, MIGHT BE DIMINISHING.
IF THE MEDIA, AS A GOVERNMENT, IS EXPLAINING, IS EXAGGERATING THE THREAT THAT THE TPLF FORCES POSE ON THE GOVERNMENT AND THE CAPITAL, WHY IS THERE THIS EMERGENCY DECREE THEN?
Reporter: WELL, THERE IS THAT DICHOTOMY.
THEY SAY, AND THIS IS THEIR POINT OF VIEW EXPRESSED TO US IN RECENT HOURS, THAT THE REPORTING HAS BEEN ALARMIST.
THEY SAY THERE'S NO IMMEDIATE THREAT ON THE CAPITAL.
I THINK TWO THINGS CAN BE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME.
IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT THERE IS AN IMMEDIATE MILITARY THREAT ON THE CAPITAL.
BUT THERE IS THIS THREAT.
AND YOU SAW THE REACTION VERY SWIFTLY FROM THE PARLIAMENT TO BRING THROUGH THE STATE OF EMERGENCY, WHAT THIS MEANS IS THAT YOUNG ETHIOPIANS CAN BECOME CONSCRIPTED TO FIGHT.
THE PRIME MINISTER HAS CALLED ON PEOPLE TO TAKE UP ARMS, GIVING A SENSE OF URGENCY AND CRISIS TO THE SITUATION.
AND IT IS A CRISIS.
WHAT IS AT STAKE HERE IS THE MAKEUP OF ETHIOPIA ITSELF, WHICH AS I ALREADY SAID IS AT TIMES TENUOUS OVER THE LAST FEW DECADES, AND THAT IS WHAT EVERYONE IS HOPING TO AVOID HERE, AND ALREADY BLOODY CONFLICT, MARKED BY HORRIBLE ATROCITIES, DESCENDING INTO A FULL BLOWN CRISIS AND CIVIL WAR.
SO WE'RE HEARING FROM THE U.N., AND FROM THE U.S.
OFFICIALS, THE SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN ISSUED STATEMENTS AND TWEETING JUST TODAY, URGING FOR A CALM DOWN, AND CEASE-FIRE, AND FOR TALKS TO RESUME.
THIS IS HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME AS YOU HAVE ABE SAY WE WILL BURY THE ENEMY WITH OUR BLOOD AND OUR BONES.
IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT THE TALKS ARE ANYWHERE CLOSE ON THE HORIZON.
Reporter: I DON'T THINK TALKS ARE ON THE HORIZON, NECESSARILY, AND I ACTUALLY PUT THE QUESTION TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF ETHIOPIA, A RARE ENGAGEMENT WITH THE PRESS A RELATIVELY SHORT TIME AGO.
HE SAID THAT THE PRECONDITIONS FOR TALKS AT THE MINIMUM IS FOR THE TPLF FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE GOVERNMENT TO MOVE OUT OF THOSE REGIONS THAT THEY'VE MOVED INTO, OUT OF TIGRE AND POSING A MILITARY THREAT TO ADDIS ABABA BUT THEY ALSO STRESS THEY DON'T SEE THEMSELVES AS EQUAL PARTNERS TO THE TPLF.
THIS IS THE REGIONAL POWER THAT THEY SAY THREATENED THEM AND THAT IS WHAT PRECIPITATED THIS CONFLICT A YEAR AGO.
SO THERE'S A LOT OF VERY BAD BLOOD BETWEEN THESE TWO SIDES, AND THIS -- THE ENVOY FROM THE HORN OF AFRICA FOR THE U.S. IS IN THE COUNTRY TO TRY AND DO JUST THAT, TO TRY AND GET THEM TO TALK.
BUT I THINK THE FIRST STEP IS TO COOL DOWN THE SITUATION, AND THAT'S VERY MUCH UP FOR DEBATE WHETHER THAT WILL HAPPEN.
SO DAVID, CAN YOU FINALLY JUST PUT THIS INTO A LARGER PICTURE PERSPECTIVE FOR OUR GLOBAL AUDIENCE AS TO WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THE REGION, AND THE GROWING INSTABILITY WE'RE SEEING NOT ONLY IN ETHIOPIA, BUT NOW OBVIOUSLY IN NEIGHBORING SUDAN, WITH THE COUP JUST TWO WEEKS AGO?
THIS IS HUGELY IMPORTANT FOR THE REGION, ETHIOPIA IS A POWER HOUSE IN THE HORN OF AFRICA, A LONG TIME ALLY OF THE U.S. WITH THE SIGNIFICANT MILITARY PRESENCE IN THE REGION.
AND ALSO, A VERY IMPORTANT DIPLOMATIC PRESENCE, THIS IS THE COUNTRY WHICH HOSTS THE AFRICAN UNION IN ADDIS ABABA, IT'S HOME TO U.N. AGENCIES AND HUMANITARIAN AGENCIES, IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME ALLY OF WESTERN POWERS, AND YOU'VE SEEN PRIME MINISTER ABE COME INTO POWER, BE GETTING THE NOBEL PRIZE FOR HIS PEACE ARRANGEMENT WITH -- AFTER DECADES OF HOT AND COLD WAR.
BUT NOW THIS PROSPECT OF AN ETHNIC CONFLICT SPIRALING FULLY OUT OF CONTROL IN ETHIOPIA, AND IT'S WORTH STRESSING THAT ALL SIDES HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF THESE HORRIBLE ATROCITIES.
THE GOVERNMENT ITSELF, AND THROUGH CNN'S REPORTING, ACCUSED OF SPECIFIC ATROCITIES, IN TERMS OF THEIR ACTIONS IN TIGRE.
BUT THIS COULD GO VERY BADLY IN THE COMING WEEKS, THE GOVERNMENT SAYS THAT THEY WANT TO CALM THE SITUATION DOWN.
BUT FRANKLY IT DOESN'T MESH, NECESSARILY, WITH THE RHETORIC IN RECENT DAYS FROM THE PRIME MINISTER.
BIANNA.
THESE CRIMES COULD AON THE TO WAR CRIMES AS WELL.
I KNOW YOU'LL BE REPORTING FOR US IN THE DAYS AHEAD.
> LET'S DIG INTO WHAT WE'VE JUST HEARD WITH AN ETHIOPIAN JOURNALIST AND THE FOUNDER OF THE ADDIS STANDARD MAGAZINE.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, CAN YOU HELP US CLEAR WHAT APPEARS TO BE A BIT CONFUSING FROM THE GOVERNMENT, THEY'RE ISSUING STATEMENTS SAYING THE MEDIA IS OVERHYPING THE CURRENT SITUATION AND WE'RE ALSO HEARING THE TPLF FORCES ARE MARCHING CLOSER TO THE CAPITAL.
WHICH ONE IS IT?
WELL, THAT'S A COMBINATION OF SEVERAL FACTORS.
WHILE I DO DISAGREE WITH THE ASSESSMENT THAT THE TPLF OR THE TIGRE DEFENSE FORCES, OR THE LIBERATION ARMY ARE APPROACHING ON THE CITY, THERE ARE FACTORS THAT HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE SENSE OF HYPERBOLE THERE AND THE GOVERNMENT ITSELF IS A PARTY TO THAT.
NOT ONLY THE MEDIA, AND YES THE TIGRE FORCES HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT THEY WOULD NOT RULE OUT WALKING INTO THE STREETS OF ADDIS IF THAT IS WHAT IT TAKES TO BREAK THE SIEGE.
THAT THEY SAY THE GOVERNMENT HAS LAID ON TIGRE, AFTER THE 28th OF JUNE, WHEN THE GOVERNMENT FORCES HAVE LEFT THE CAPITAL IN WHAT THEY DESCRIBE AS A DEFEAT FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SAID IT WAS A CEASE-FIRE.
SO EVER SINCE THEN THERE HAS BEEN A SIEGE OF TIGRE.
COMMUNICATION CUTDOWN, BANKS CLOSED.
TRANSPORT BLOCKED.
HUMANITARIAN AID NOT ABLE TO TRICKLE THERE AS IT'S WANTED.
SO THE FORCES ARE SAYING IF THAT'S WHAT IT TAKES TO -- IF MARCHING INTO ADDIS IS WHAT IT TAKES TO BREAK THE SIEGE, WE WILL DO IT.
SO THAT'S ONE FACTOR WHEN THEY ANNOUNCED THAT AND THE OTHER FACTOR IS THE NEWS THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN CONTROL OF KEY CITIES IN THE STATE WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN LAUNCHING MILITARY OFFENSIVE AFTER THE SECOND WEEK OF JULY.
SO THE CONTROL OF THOSE KEY CITIES BY THE FORCES SEND A REPORT ABOUT THEIR CONTROL OF IT.
I WOULD NOT BE VERY MUCH SURE BECAUSE ANY COMMUNICATION IS CUT DOWN THERE.
THAT HAS ALSO CONTRIBUTED THAT SENSE OF URGENCY THEY ARE JUST A COUPLE HUNDRED KILOMETERS AWAY FROM THE CAPITAL CITY.
THAT IS COMPOUNDED YET AGAIN BY THE GOVERNMENT'S DECLARATION OF A NATIONWIDE STATE OF EMERGENCY.
AND THE PRIME MINISTER'S CALL OF THE ADDIS ABABA RESIDENCE TO TAKE UP ANY WEAPON THEY HAVE AND DEFEND THE CITY.
SO, YOU KNOW, JOURNALISTS HAVE SORT OF ASSAULT TO THIS HYPERBOLE THAT IT WAS ALREADY IN THE AIR, CONTRIBUTING TO THIS MASSIVE AMOUNT OF TENSION THAT HAS BEEN REFLECTED MOSTLY ONLINE, PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, SOME ARE, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO REMAIN CALM IN WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN BUT IT HAS CREATED A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF PANIC, AND FEAR.
LUCKILY THAT IS SUBSIDING NOW, THE GOVERNMENT IS ANNOUNCING AND OTHER JOURNALISTS WHO COULD BE ABLE TO WALK AROUND ARE SAYING THERE ARE NO APPROACHING REBELS AS WE SPEAK.
SO THINGS ARE GETTING CALMER AGAIN.
BUT FAR FROM BEING OVER.
IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT ABE IS LIKELY SURPRISED TO SEE HOW THINGS HAVE ESCALATED AND HOW THE FORCES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO REGROUP?
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE FIGHTING THAT HAD ONCE AGAIN RESUMED IN THE NORTH, JUST LAST YEAR, IT APPEARED THAT THE GOVERNMENT, ALONG WITH SURPRISINGLY MANY WOULD ARGUE WITH THE FORCES, WERE ABLE TO CALM THINGS DOWN, AND CALM THE FORCES DOWN, THE TPLF FORCES ASK YET HERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THEM REGROUPING, AND GAINING MORE WEIGHT.
WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY HARD TO SAY THE PRIME MINISTER BEING TAKEN BY A SURPRISE.
IF HE IS BEING TAKEN BY SURPRISE, BY HOW THINGS ARE UNFOLDING, THAT MEANS THERE IS GENUINELY A LACK OF TRUE -- YOU KNOW, TRUE INAPPROPRIATE INTELLIGENCE RECEIVING, REACHING THE PRIME MINISTERS FROM HIS MILITARY PEOPLE.
THIS WAR, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, HAS BEEN COMPOUNDED BY A LOT OF MISINFORMATION.
THE WAR WAS MOSTLY DEBILITATING TO MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE PREVALENCE OF THIS ANALYSIS, OF THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND, AND HOW THE WAR HAS MORPHED AFTER THE FIRST FEW -- SO TO SAY.
THE FIGHT HAD TAKEN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SHAPE AND THAT WAS AFTER THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS ANNOUNCED THAT THE CAPITAL CITY OF THE REGION AND THE STATE WAS UNDER ITS CONTROL, ON THE 28th OF NOVEMBER, ALREADY.
THAT'S JUST REALLY THREE WEEKS AFTER WHAT THE GOVERNMENT INITIALLY SAID WAS THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OPERATION WAS LAUNCHED.
SO THE PRIME MINISTER SAID THE OPERATION WAS COMPLETED.
BUT THE CONTEXT OF THE WAR ITSELF, THE SHEER BRUTALITY OF THE CONDUCT OF THE NATIONAL DEFENSE FORCES, AS IT IS NOW VERIFIED BY THE JOINT REPORT, THE FORCES -- AND ALSO TO A VARYING DEGREE, AS THE JOINT REPORT SAID EVEN THOUGH IT'S ON THE DEFENSE, AFTER TIGREAN FORCES THERE, THE CONDUCT OF THIS WAR HAS CHANGED THE NATURE OF THE WAR, AND THEY SUFFER ENOUGH.
THIS ANALYSIS WAS MISSING FROM THE ETHIOPIAN MILITARY ANALYSIS THAT THE WAR WAS MORPHING INTO SOMETHING LARGER THAN THEY THOUGHT IT WAS.
SO ALL THIS TIME, THERE IS A MISREADING OF THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND.
IF THE PRIME MINISTER IS TAKEN BY SURPRISE NOW, HE TRULY MUST BE TAKING THE WRONG INTELLIGENCE OF THE ONGOINGS ON THE GROUND.
I'M CURIOUS TO DIG DEEPER INTO YOUR WRITING ABOUT, I GUESS, HIS MENTALITY AND HIS APPROACH TO LEADERSHIP.
YOU WROTE EARLIER THIS YEAR THAT THE BRUTAL WAR IN IS NOT AN ISOLATED CASE.
AND THIS REPRESENTS ABE'S LEADERSHIP STYLE, THIS CONTROL, RUTHLESSLY TRYING TO CENTRALIZE POWER SINCE HE CAME BACK INTO POWER IN 2018.
HOW DOES THAT SQUARE WITH, 'A,' HIM WINNING A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE AND 'B' WHAT THE DAILY REALITY IS LIKE FOR ETHIOPIANS TODAY?
WELL, YOU KNOW, TWO THINGS VERY SEPARATE.
THE PRIME MINISTER HAS INTRODUCED A LEADERSHIP STYLE IN WHICH IS VERY MUCH IN FAVOR OF CENTRALIZED POWER STRUCTURE.
NOW, ETHIOPIA IS A COUNTRY FOR THE LAST THREE DECADES THAT HAS EXERCISED SEMIAUTONOMOUS REGIONAL STATE FEDERALISM SYSTEM THAT THE CONSTITUTION REFERS TO AS A MULTINATIONAL FEDERALISM WHEREBY THE REGIONAL STATES EXERCISE, TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, A CERTAIN DEGREE OF AUTONOMY OVER WHAT KIND OF GOVERNING SYSTEM THAT THEY FOLLOW.
SO THE PRIME MINISTER CAME INTO POWER IN HIS FAVORITE MODE OF GOVERNING WITH MORE OF A CENTRALIZED SYSTEM, AND THAT WAS REALLY FLYING IN THE FACE OF THAT ARRANGEMENT, THAT LAST POLITICAL SETTLEMENT ETHIOPIA HAD 1991.
SO RESISTANCE WAS EMERGING ALREADY.
THE REGION OF THE STATE IS JUST THE MASSIVE ONE, OR THE ONE THAT'S THE MOST VISIBLE.
THIS WAS A STANCE STARTED ALREADY, THE PUSHBACK FOR THE -- AGAINST THE PRIME MINISTER.
THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WAS NOT GIVEN TO HIM FOR THE KIND OF GOVERNING STYLE THAT HE WAS INTRODUCING.
IT WAS GIVEN TO HIM FOR THE WRONG REASON OF THE SO-CALLED PEACE PROCESS THAT HE BROUGHT BETWEEN ETHIOPIA AND ERYTREA OF BREAKING THE 20 YEAR STALEMATE OF NO WAR.
NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT THAT PEACE AGREEMENT.
THE ETHIOPIAN PARLIAMENT HAS NEVER APPROVED ANYTHING OF THAT PEACE PROCESS.
SO THE ETHIOPIAN PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT IS INCLUDED IN THAT PEACE.
SO THE PEACE PROCESS HAS HINGED BETWEEN THE TWO LEADERS AND AS WELL IN ADDIS ABABA.
IN THE TIGREAN AUTHORITIES, IT DID NOT INVOLVE THEM AS A REGIONAL STATE THAT'S LARGELY SHARING THE BORDER WITH ERYTREA.
IT'S ABSOLUTELY ISOLATED NOW.
THAT PEACE -- IT ENDED UP BEING NOT PEACE BUT SORT OF AN ALLIANCE AGAINST THE TIGREAN FORCES.
THESE TWO THINGS ARE VERY MUCH AGAINST -- YOU KNOW, IN THE CENTER OF THE PRIME MINISTERS, YOU KNOW, TRAGIC FAILURE OF PUTTING ETHIOPIA INTO THE PATH OF A DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION AS HE WAS EXPECTED.
SO NOW WE HAVE OUR FINAL FEW MOMENTS HERE, I'M JUST CURIOUS, IN HIS PAST THREE YEARS, IN POWER, HAS HE MADE LIFE EASIER, BETTER, FOR THE ETHIOPIAN PEOPLE?
YOU KNOW, IT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ARE ASKING.
THE PRIME MINISTER HAS A BASE, SORT OF LIKE NOW IT'S BEEN REFINING ITSELF AS THE BLOOD AND SOIL NATIONALIST BASIS.
HE HAS FERVENT SUPPORTERS THAT SEE LIFE AS NOTHING BUT VERY MUCH COMFORTABLE ZONE TO BE IN AS COMPARED.
BUT THEN THERE ARE ALSO PEOPLE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE HE COMES FROM, AND WHERE THE WAR THAT WE SEE IN TIGRE TODAY HAS ORIGINALLY CAME -- ORIGINATED -- LIFE HAS NOT GOTTEN ANY BETTER.
THOUSANDS OF YOUNG PEOPLE ARE IN PRISON AS WE SPEAK.
YOUNG PEOPLE ARE BEING DRAGGED OUT OF THE PRISON, AND BEING KILLED, EXECUTED FOR NO REASON, AND THEN NO INVESTIGATION, WE HAVE WITNESSED AN EXECUTION OF A YOUNG MAN IN THE BROAD DAYLIGHT.
THIS IS -- THIS HAPPENED UNDER THE WATCH OF THE PRIME MINISTER.
HAS LIFE GOTTEN BETTER FOR THESE PEOPLE?
I'LL BE VERY MUCH HARD PRESSED TO SAY YES.
LIFE IS ALSO GETTING VERY MUCH TOUGH FOR INDEPENDENT JOURNALISTS LIKE MY COLLEAGUES, OR THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WANT TO CRITICIZE THE PRIME MINISTER.
SO IT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ARE ASKING.
HE STILL HAS HIS BASE WHO ARE NOT REALLY WILLING TO LISTEN TO ANY DISSENTING VOICES, ANY CRITICS OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND THEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING UNDER CONSTANT FEAR AND, IN FACT, UNDER A BRUTAL WAR.
IT IS A BRUTAL WAR AND A FAST MOVING CONFLICT.
AND WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME, SO MUCH, IN HELPING EXPLAIN WHERE WE ARE, WHERE THINGS STAND NOW, AND POSSIBLY WHERE THEY COULD GO IN THE FUTURE.
SUDALA, THANK YOU SO MUCH, WE APPRECIATE IT.
> JUST A NOTE, WE CONTINUE TO INVITE ETHIOPIAN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS TO COME ON THIS PROGRAM, AND THEY HAVE YET TO DO SO.
> WELL, WE TURN NOW TO THE U.S. WHERE FOR YEARS THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION HAS BEEN ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S MOST POWERFUL ADVOCACY GROUPS BUT IS THERE POLITICAL POWER WANING, THEY'RE ON A DOWNWARD SPIRAL AND IN DEEP FINANCIAL TROUBLE.
THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE HAS FILED A LAWSUIT TO DISSOLVE THE ORGANIZATION, THE ACCUSATION, SELF-DEALING AND CORRUPTION.
A NEW BOOK, MISFIRE, BY NPR'S INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER TIM MACK PRESENTS THIS SCATHING EXPOSE AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON.
TIM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M FASCINATED IN YOU CHOOSING TO COVER THE NRA AND THEIR RICH HISTORY IN THE U.S. WHICH I WOULD IMAGINE THAT MANY VIEWERS WOULD BE SURPRISED TO HEAR THAT THIS ORGANIZATION ORIGINATED IN THE 19th CENTURY HAS AN ORGANIZATION THAT HELPED TEACH MARKSMANSHIP TO U.S. SOLDIERS, HOW DID IT GO FROM THAT TO THIS POWERFUL RIGHT WING LOBBY THAT IT IS TODAY?
WELL, THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF PIVOT POINTS OVER THE YEARS.
ONE OF WHICH IN THE LATE '70s, WHEN THEY MOVED AWAY FROM BEING MORE OF A GUN SAFETY AND HUNTING AND OUTDOOR SPORTS TYPE OF ORGANIZATION, TO MORE POLITICALLY ACTIVE ORGANIZATION BASED ON ADVOCACY.
THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG POINTS AND ANOTHER BIG ONE WAS PROBABLY AFTER THE SHOOTINGS AT SANDY HOOK.
THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF CHANGES IN THE NRA IN RECENT YEARS BUT NONE MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT MOMENT.
BASICALLY THE NRA MADE A STRATEGIC DECISION INSIDE THE ORGANIZATION THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DOUBLE DOWN ON ONLY REACHING OUT TO CONSERVATIVES AND REPUBLICANS AFTER THAT.
AND KIND OF USING THE CULTURE WAR AS A BROADER WAY TO RAISE MONEY AND INCREASE THEIR MEMBERSHIP.
DID IT WORK?
FOR SOME TIME IT DID.
DURING THE OBAMA YEARS, THE NRA WAS FLUSH WITH CASH.
AND A LOT OF THESE REPORTS AND THINGS RELATED TO CORRUPTION THAT WE'RE SEEING NOW TODAY DUE TO INVESTIGATIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, THOSE HAPPENED DURING THE OBAMA YEARS WHEN THE NRA WAS ABLE TO SELL TO ITS MEMBERS THIS IDEA THAT THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WAS GOING TO COME AFTER THEIR GUNS OR RESTRICT GUN RIGHTS IN SOME WAY AND THAT LEADS TO WHAT REALLY IS PROBABLY THE APEX OF THE NRA'S POWER, THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP IN 2016.
THE NRA SPENT MORE MONEY SUPPORTING DONALD TRUMP THAN EVEN TRUMP'S OWN SUPER-PAC, DURING THAT ELECTION, MORE THAN $30 MILLION.
IN FACT, WHEN DONALD TRUMP WAS REALLY ON THE ROPES, AND REPUBLICANS WERE SCURRYING AWAY FROM HIS CAMPAIGN IN THE WAKE OF THE ACCESS HOLLYWOOD VIDEOS, ACTUALLY THE NRA INCREASED THEIR AD BUY AND SUPPORT FOR THE DONALD TRUMP ORGANIZATION.
IRONICALLY, THOUGH, TRUMP'S ELECTION LEADS TO A DRAMATIC DECLINE IN FUND RAISING, AND INTEREST FROM MEMBERS, AND THAT'S -- AFTER THAT, DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IS WHERE A LOT OF THIS FINANCIAL CONSTRICTION COMES ABOUT FOR THE GROUP AND WHERE A LOT OF THESE TROUBLES START TO BUBBLE UP FOR THEM.
AND THAT'S WHEN A LOT OF THE FOCUS REALLY TURNS TO THE MAN AT THE TOP OF THE ORGANIZATION, AT THE HELM.
WAYNE LA PIERRE WHO HAD BEEN CEO OF THE NRA FOR 30 YEARS AND YOU DO A LOT OF WORK DIGGING DEEP INTO WHO THIS MAN IS AND A LOT OF SOURCES RESPONDED WITH A RATHER SURPRISING ANSWER, THAT INSTEAD OF BEING THIS ALL POWERFUL GUN LOVING LEADER, HE -- YOU DESCRIBE AS CLUMSY, MEEK, SPASTIC MAN WITH A WEAK HANDSHAKE WHO'S A BIT OF A PUSHOVER AND NOT REALLY INTERESTED IN GUNS, THAT DOESN'T SQUARE WITH SOMEBODY WHO'S AT THE HELM AND RUNNING ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL GUN LOBBIES IN THE COUNTRY AND WORLD.
YEAH.
ONE OF THE BIG REASONS I WAS SO EXCITED TO GET INTO IN A BIG INVESTIGATIVE REPORT IN A BOOK ON THE NRA WAS IT'S KIND OF A BLACK BOX.
THERE'S NOT A LOT OF REPORTING UP THERE OR A LOT OF INFORMATION ABOUT THE PERSONALITIES, ABOUT THE CONFLICTS AND THE FACTIONS INSIDE THE ORGANIZATION.
NOW, THE BOOK OPENS WITH THIS SCENE AT WAYNE LA PIERRE'S WEDDING IN THE LATE '90s AND HE DOESN'T WANT TO GET MARRIED.
THE TIME COMES AND GOES WHEN THE CEREMONY IS SUPPOSED TO START AND HE DOESN'T SHOW UP.
HE'S OUTSIDE.
HE'S IN THE CAR WITH HIS BEST MAN WHO THROWS A $100 BILL ON THE DASH BOARD AND SAYS, HEY, I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD GET MARRIED TODAY EITHER.
BUT WAYNE LA PIERRE EVENTUALLY GETS TALKED INTO IT.
ALMOST HARANGUED INTO IT BY HIS BRIDE AND PRIEST AND HE GOES THROUGH WITH THE CEREMONY BUT IT'S THIS INCREDIBLY AWKWARD EVENT.
IT'S ATTENDED BY ALL SORTS OF NRA LUMINARIES HE MAKES IT VERY WEIRD.
HE DOES NOT MAKE EYE CONTACT WITH HIS BRIDE OVER THE COURSE OF THE CEREMONY.
AND THERE'S A REASON I TELL THIS ANECDOTE.
THE ANECDOTE REALLY DOES EXPLAIN WHY THE NRA AND WAYNE LA PIERRE HAVE GOTTEN INTO SUCH LEGAL AND FINANCIAL TROUBLE THAT OVER THE YEARS POWERFUL PEOPLE INSIDE THE NRA HAVE REALIZED THAT IF YOU WANT SOMETHING, WHETHER IT'S MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND SELF-DEALING CONTRACTS OR GOLDEN PARACHUTES FOR FORMER SENIOR OFFICIALS, THAT IF YOU HARANGUE WAYNE LA PIERRE LONG ENOUGH, YELL AT HIM LONG ENOUGH, GO AFTER HIM LONG ENOUGH HE'S EVENTUALLY GOING TO ASSENT TO WHAT YOU'RE DEMANDING AND SO MANY OF THE PROBLEMS COME INSIDE THE NRA, COME FROM THIS FLAW IN WAYNE LA PIERRE'S CHARACTER.
A BIT OF A PUSHOVER, ONE COULD SAY, AND ASIDE FROM THAT ANECDOTE, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS NOT THE MOST ROMANTIC WEDDING STORY TO HEAR, YOU TELL MORE, AND TALK MORE ABOUT THE ROLE THAT HIS WIFE PLAYS THROUGHOUT HIS LEADERSHIP AND WHAT AN IMPACT, THE SIGNIFICANT ROLE SHE PLAYS IN SOME OF THESE HUGE MISSTEPS TAKEN BY THE ORGANIZATION.
THAT'S RIGHT.
SUSAN LA PIERRE IS HIS WIFE.
SHE DOESN'T HAVE A FORMAL PAID JOB AT THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION.
SHE'S JUST KIND OF A VOLUNTEER.
SHE'S ALSO A KIND OF HIDDEN HAND IN THE POWER NETWORKS AT THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION.
SO SHE IS REALLY THE LEADER OF THIS ELITE WORLD OF MILLION DOLLAR FEMALE DONORS TO THE NRA AND SHE HAS, LIKE SO MANY PEOPLE AROUND WAYNE LA PIERRE, REALIZED SHE CAN GET A TON OF EXPENSES APPROVED AND A REALLY LAVISH LIFESTYLE, APPROVED AND PAID FOR BY THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION IF SHE CAN KIND OF PUSH HER HUSBAND AROUND ENOUGH AND GET HER HUSBAND TO APPROVE THOSE THINGS.
A LOT OF THE TROUBLES AT THE NRA RIGHT NOW REST AT THE FEET OF THE LA PIERRES.
AND SO HOW DID ALL OF THIS CORRUPTION AND THE DRYING UP OF FUNDING LEAD ULTIMATELY TO THE 2020 INVESTIGATION BY THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL INTO THE NRA?
SO FOR YEARS AND YEARS THE NRA LIVED LARGE, WHETHER IT'S WAYNE OR SUSAN LA PIERRE OR OTHER TOP NRA OFFICIALS, THEY WERE ENJOYING USING THE NRA TO PAY FOR MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN PRIVATE JET TRAVEL, EXOTIC VACATIONS TO THE BAHAMAS AND TRIPS TO LAKE CUOMO IN ITALY.
LAVISH MEALS IN D.C. AND ELSEWHERE.
SIX FIGURES IN ITALIAN MEN'S WEAR FOR WAYNE LA PIERRE ON RODEO DRIVE.
AS TIMES GO ON, THERE ARE INTERNAL WHISTLE-BLOWERS THAT BEGIN TO EMERGE, AS THE NRA FACES CONTRACTION, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN THE TRUMP ERA WAS PARTICULAR LAY BAD FOR THE NRA.
BY 2018 THE NRA WAS GETTING TO A POINT WHERE THEY ALMOST COULD NOT MAKE PAYROLL.
IT'S A SERIOUS, SERIOUS PROBLEM FOR THEM AT THIS POINT.
AND SO AS THESE INTERNAL WHISTLE-BLOWERS EMERGE, AND EXTERNAL INVESTIGATORS BEGIN TO GET INTO IT.
WHETHER THAT'S INVESTIGATIVE REPORTERS LIKE MYSELF OR CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATIONS AND THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL ALL OF THIS BEGINS TO SNOWBALL TO THE POINT WHERE, AS YOU MENTIONED AT THE BEGINNING, THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL AFTER ITS INVESTIGATION FILED A LAWSUIT SEEKING TO DISSOLVE THE NRA IN ITS ENTIRETY, ARGUING THAT THEY HAD FOUND MORE THAN $60 MILLION OF MISALLOCATED FUNDS FROM THE NRA AND THAT THE ORGANIZATION WAS SO CORRUPT FROM TOP TO BOTTOM, THAT IT NEEDED TO BE CLOSED DOWN ENTIRELY.
YEAH, AND YOU REPORT THAT WAYNE'S SALARY JUMPED FROM $200,000 IN THE MID-1990s TO $2 .2 MILLION IN 2018.
AND THEN IN 2021, THE UNTHINKABLE HAPPENS, THE NRA FILES FOR BANKRUPTCY.
HOW BIG OF A SHOCKER WAS THAT, AND I DO WANT YOU TO ADDRESS THAT YOU REACHED OUT TO THEM, AND YOU HAVE TRIED TO GET THEM TO SPEAK ON THE RECORD, AND THUS FAR NO RESPONSE.
CORRECT?
THAT'S RIGHT.
I'VE REACHED OUT TO THE NRA AS WELL AS WAYNE LA PIERRE AND SUSAN LA PIERRE IN VARIOUS WAYS AS WELL AS PROVIDING THEM A LIST OF QUESTIONS RELATED TO THE BOOK'S REPORTING AND ASKING THEM FOR COMMENT AND HAVE NOT HEARD BACK ON THOSE ISSUES.
BUT I WILL SAY THAT THIS BOOK IS BASED ON OVER 120 INTERVIEWS WITH PEOPLE INSIDE THE NRA UNIVERSE AS WELL AS THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF SECRET DEPOSITIONS AND INTERNAL NRA EMAILS AND PRIVATE DOCUMENTS WHERE WE REALLY KIND OF PULLED BACK THE CURTAIN, AND GIVE SOME LIFE TO THE PEOPLE AND WHAT HAPPENED BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE GROUP.
YOU MENTIONED THE BANKRUPTCY.
THIS WAS FILED IN THE LAST YEAR.
AFTER THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL LAUNCHED ITS LAWSUIT THE NRA, WHICH IS -- WHICH WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED IN NEW YORK, UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL, TRIED TO FILE FOR BANKRUPTCY IN ORDER TO MOVE TO TEXAS, USING THE PROTECTIONS OF BANKRUPTCY LAW.
NOW, A BANKRUPTCY JUDGE SAID THAT THIS WAS NOT A FILING IN GOOD FAITH AND REJECTED IT.
SO NOW THE NRA IS BACK IN COURT, CONFRONTING THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL IN THIS VERY DRAMATIC LATEST DEVELOPMENT.
SO WHAT DOES THE FUTURE HOLD FOR THE ORGANIZATION?
YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING.
THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE INSIDE THE NRA WHO HAVE WANTED TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY.
ONE NAME THAT COMES TO MIND IS OLIVER NORTH, WHO WAS BROUGHT IN, IN 2018-2019 TO ACT AS THE NRA PRESIDENT.
THERE'S THIS VERY CLIMACTIC SCENE IN THE BOOK WHERE OLIVER NORTH, WHO WAS TRYING TO DEMAND AN INTERNAL AUDIT OF THE NRA, CLASHES WITH WAYNE LA PIERRE IN A INDIANAPOLIS HOTEL SUITE AND ULTIMATELY WAYNE LA PIERRE PUSHES OLIVER NORTH OUT OF THE PRESIDENCY OF THE NRA.
WHAT THE NRA -- WHAT BECOMES OF THE NRA WILL REALLY DEPEND ON HOW THIS ONGOING LITIGATION GOES.
IT'S A SERIOUS POSSIBILITY THAT THE NRA ACTUALLY GETS DISSOLVED BY THE COURTS.
IT MIGHT NOT BE THE MOST LIKELY OUTCOME BUT IT'S A SERIOUSLY POSSIBLE ONE.
AND SO I'LL BE WATCHING CLOSELY TO SEE WHERE THAT NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL CASE PROCEEDS.
A FASCINATING DIG INTO POWER, CORRUPTION, AND GREED IN THIS WELL RESEARCHED BOOK.
TIM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
> WELL, NOW WE TAKE A LOOK AT HOW ONE MAN SHOOK THE FOUNDATIONS OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY BY TEARING UP THE CONSTITUTION DURING A TIME OF ITS GREATEST THREAT.
HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR AND BLOOMBERG COLUMNIST NOAH FIELDMAN IS OUT WITH A NEW BOOK, THE BROKEN CONSTITUTION.
IT DELVES INTO PRESIDENT LINCOLN'S THOUGHT PROCESS AS HE REWROTE THE RULE BOOK AND GRAPPLED WITH CHALLENGES FROM BOTH POLITICAL RIVALS AND PASSIONATE ABOLITIONISTS.
HERE HE IS SPEAKING WITH WALTER ISAACSON.
THANK YOU, BIANNA AND PROFESSOR NOAH FIELDMAN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME, WALTER.
I LOVE THIS BOOK.
WHAT REALLY SURPRISED ME IS HOW ABRAHAM LINCOLN, SO TORE UP THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES WHEN HE GETS FACED WITH THE CIVIL WAR.
EXPLAIN THIS TO ME.
THE SOUTHERN STATES HAD SECEDED, AND LINCOLN FIRST HAD THIS -- TO GO TO WAR TO FORCE THEM TO STAY IN THE UNION AND TODAY WE THINK OF THAT AS OBVIOUS.
BUT AT THE TIME IT WAS VERY FAR FROM IT.
THE PREVIOUS PRESIDENT JAMES BUCHANAN AND HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL HAD ISSUED A FORMAL DECISION OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SAYING THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAD NO AUTHORITY TO FORCE A STATE THAT DIDN'T WANT TO BE IN THE UNION TO BE IN IT AND THAT WAS THE UNDERSTOOD CONSTITUTIONAL VIEW AT THE TIME.
SO FIRST YOU HAD TO BREAK THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE CONSTITUTION EXISTED JUST TO GO TO WAR AND THEN WITHIN A COUPLE OF MONTHS LINCOLN SUSPENDED THE WRIT OF HABEAS CORPUS, WHICH MEANS WHEN YOU GET ARRESTED, YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHOW UP IN COURT AND HAVE CHARGES FILED AGAINST YOU.
AND THEN HE USED THAT SUBSEQUENTLY OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS TO SHUT DOWN NEWSPAPERS AND TO SILENCE ARREST CRITICS WHO WERE AGAINST THE WAR ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.
THE MOST EXTREME SUPPRESSION OF FREE SPEECH EVER IN OUR HISTORY AND THAT, TOO, WAS PRETTY MUCH OBVIOUSLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL BECAUSE THE SUSPENSION OF HABEAS CORPUS WHICH IS MENTIONED IN THE CONSTITUTION IS RESTRICTED TO CONGRESS.
IT'S NOT THE PRESIDENT'S JOB.
AND THEN LAST, AND MOST FAMOUSLY, WHEN LINCOLN EMANCIPATE HAD HAD ENSLAVED PEOPLE IN THE CONFEDERACY HE WAS ACTING AGAINST WHAT HE HIMSELF HAD SAID WAS THE CONSTITUTIONAL RULE AS RECENTLY AS A YEAR BEFORE THAT WHEN HE FIRST BECAME PRESIDENT.
IN FACT, IN HIS FIRST INAUGURAL ADDRESS HE BEGAN BY SAYING SLAVERY IS PERMANENT, IT'S CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED AND I HAVE PLANS TO AFFECT IT.
IS THAT WHY THE FIRST INAUGURAL ADDRESS IS NOT CARVED ON THE WALLS OF THE LINCOLN MONUMENT?
EXACTLY.
YOU KNOW, YOU GO IN THERE AND SEE THE SECOND INAUGURAL ADDRESS WHICH IS A BEAUTIFUL SPEECH WHICH THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS WHICH WE ALL KNOW BY HEART AND NO ONE MENTIONS THE FIRST INAUGURAL.
THAT'S EXACTLY THE REASON.
IT SHOWS THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR, LINCOLN THOUGHT THE GOAL WAS TO REESTABLISH THE UNION AND THE WAY TO DO THAT WAS TO CONVINCE THE SOUTH TO COME BACK VOLUNTARILY AND THAT HE THOUGHT REQUIRED A GUARANTEE THEY WOULD HAVE SLAVERY FOREVER.
THIS ABILITY OF LINCOLN TO IGNORE THE CONSTITUTION OR IN SOME CASES AS YOU SAY TEAR IT UP.
SHOULD WE THINK MORE OF HIM FOR THAT OR LESS OF HIM FOR THAT?
WE SHOULD FIRST OF ALL SEE THAT HE IS A FAR MORE IMPORTANT FIGURE IN OUR HISTORY, EVEN THAN WE THINK.
WE ALL KNOW HE WAS A GREAT PRESIDENT, AND THAT HE HELPED THE UNION TOGETHER BUT WE DON'T ALWAYS REALIZE THE CONSTITUTION THAT WE HAD FROM THE VERY BEGINNING WAS A COMPROMISE, AND IT WAS A COMPROMISE THAT ENTAILED ALLOWING SLAVERY.
AND IN SOME FUNDAMENTAL WAY, THAT WAS IMMORAL.
AND LINCOLN WHEN HE BROKE THAT CONSTITUTION GAVE US THE POSSIBILITY OF NEW MORAL CONSTITUTION AND THAT MEANS HE'S WAY MORE IMPORTANT.
THAT SAID, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU BREAK SOMETHING, YOU'RE TAKING INCREDIBLY HIGH RISKS AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT LINCOLN WOULD SAY, WELL, IT WAS JUSTIFIED BECAUSE THE UNION WAS IN TROUBLE AND THE CONSTITUTION NEEDS TO BE REMADE AND THERE'S A LOT TO THAT BUT IT'S ALSO WORTH REMEMBERING IF A PRESIDENT TRIES TO BREAK THE CONSTITUTION WHEN WE'RE NOT IN A CRISIS OF THAT SCALE, THEN THAT PRESIDENT BECOMES WHAT LINCOLN HIMSELF SAID HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE, NAMELY A DICTATOR.
AND, YOU KNOW, AT SOME POINT, LINCOLN CHANGED HIS MIND FROM SAYING I DON'T WANT TO BE A DICTATOR BECAUSE ONLY A DICTATOR WOULD FREE THE SLAVES TO SAYING, OKAY, I AM GOING TO FREE THE SLAVES AND HE STILL DENIED BEING A DICTATOR BUT IN CERTAIN RESPECTS HE ACTUALLY WAS.
UP UNTIL THE CIVIL WAR YOU SAY THE CONSTITUTION WAS NOT A GREAT MORAL DOCUMENT.
IT WAS JUST A COMPROMISE THAT HAD TO BE PUT TOGETHER.
DO YOU THINK THAT THE ORIGINAL COMPROMISE OF THE CONSTITUTION -- THAT LED TO THE CONSTITUTION HAS SLAVERY AND RACISM BAKED INTO IT?
THIS IS THE DEEP AND IMPORTANT QUESTION, AND THE WAY I WOULD PUT IT IS THAT THE 1787 CONSTITUTION DID HAVE SLAVERY BAKED IN.
IT GUARANTEED THAT THE SLAVE TRADE WOULD CONTINUE FOR 20 YEARS.
IT TREATED AFRICAN-AMERICANS AS THREE FIFTHS OF A PERSON FOR PURPOSES OF COUNTING FOR ELECTIONS AND WORST OF ALL IT INCLUDED THE FUGITIVE SLAVE CLAUSE WHICH GUARANTEED THAT FREE STATES WOULD HAVE TO COLLUDE IN SLAVERY BY RETURNING ESCAPED SLAVES BACK TO THEIR MASTERS.
SO IN THAT SENSE IT DID HAVE SLAVERY BAKED IN AND WE SHOULD BE HONEST SLAVERY WAS BASED ON WHITE SUPREMACY AND RACISM AND IN THAT WAY IT WAS BAKED IN.
BUT, AND IT'S A BIG BUT, THE CIVIL WAR AND LINCOLN'S ACTIONS BROKE THAT CONSTITUTION.
AND WE THEN REPLACED THAT CONSTITUTION WITH SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
THE CONSTITUTION THAT INCLUDED THE 13th, 14th AND 15th AMENDMENTS WHICH PROHIBITED SLAVERY, AND GAVE EVERYBODY EQUAL TREATMENT UNDER THE LAWS AND GUARANTEED EVERYBODY THE RIGHT TO VOTE, OR AT LEAST ALL MEN AT THE TIME AND THOSE WERE FUNDAMENTAL TRANSFORMATIONS, IN THAT SENSE I WOULD SAY WE HAVE A DIFFERENT CONSTITUTION THAN WE HAD IN 1787, AND THAT LATER CONSTITUTION, LINCOLN'S CONSTITUTION, DOES NOT HAVE SLAVERY OR FUNDAMENTAL RACISM BAKED IN, WE'RE CAPABLE OF CHANGING AS A COUNTRY.
ONE OF THE IMPORTANT PARTS OF YOUR BOOK IS ABOUT THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION.
AND WHEN LINCOLN ISSUES IT, DOES HE ACTUALLY THINK HE HAS THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO DO WHAT HE DID, WHICH IS TO FREE ENSLAVED PEOPLE IN THE REBELLIOUS CONFEDERATE STATES?
HE WORKED HIS WAY UP TO BEING ABLE TO SAY, WITH SOME CLARITY OF CONSCIENCE, THAT HE HAD THE AUTHORITY BUT IT WAS A HARD ROAD FOR HIM TO FOLLOW.
YOU KNOW, JUST A FEW MONTHS INTO THE WAR THE -- AN IMPORTANT GENERAL JOHN FREMONT WHO WAS THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL -- STARTED FREEING THE SLAVES OF REBELS IN MISSOURI.
AND LINCOLN ORDERED HIM TO STOP.
AND TO REVERSE HIS ACTIVE EMANCIPATION.
AND FREMONT SAID NO, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIRE ME.
LINCOLN FIRED HIM.
AND REVERSED HIS ACTIONS.
AND EXPLAINED TO A FRIEND OF HIS IN A LETTER THAT TAKING THE SLAVES OF REBELS WAS MERE DICTATORSHIP.
OVER THE NEXT YEAR AND A HALF HE SLOWLY, SLOWLY BEGAN TO TELL HIMSELF AS THE WORLD WENT WORSE AND WORSE, I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING AND AT THE SAME TIME HE BROUGHT INTO HIS THEORY OF MILITARY NECESSITY AND THIS WAS THE IDEA THAT AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF DURING A WAR, HE COULD DO WHATEVER IT TOOK, VIOLATING ANY RULES, INCLUDING THE LAWS OF WAR, AS THEY WERE UNDERSTOOD, IN ORDER TO WIN THE WAR SO THAT BY THE TIME HE GOT TO ISSUING THE FINAL VERSION OF THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION HE WAS SAYING I HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO THIS BECAUSE IT'S A WAR MEASURE, AND I HAVE TO WIN THE WAR.
HE AVOIDED SAYING THAT HE WAS DOING IT BECAUSE IT WAS THE MORALLY RIGHT THING TO DO BECAUSE NOTHING IN THE CONSTITUTION ENTITLED HIM TO GET RID OF SLAVERY BECAUSE IT WAS IMMORAL.
HE EMPHASIZED THE IDEA THAT IT WAS A NECESSARY WAR MEASURE.
HE KNEW THAT ARGUMENT WAS DOUBTFUL BUT HE MADE IT ANYWAY AND IT WAS ENOUGH OF A FIG LEAF FOR HIM TO BE ABLE TO SAY I'M GOING TO DO THIS.
DID HE CONSIDER, DID HE WANT TO, END SLAVERY, THROUGHOUT THE UNION, OR DID HE ONLY WANT TO DO IT IN ORDER TO WIN THE WAR IN THE SOUTH?
YOU KNOW, NOT LONG BEFORE EISSUED THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION LINCOLN MADE A PUBLIC STATEMENT WHERE HE SAID EMPHATICALLY IF I COULD END THE WAR BY FREEING ALL THE SLAVES, I WOULD DO IT.
IF I COULD END THE WAR BY FREEING NONE OF THE SLAVES I WOULD DO IT.
I WILL DO ANYTHING IT TAKES TO WIN AND END THE WAR.
I THINK -- MY OWN VIEW IS HE MEANT IT WHEN HE SAID THAT AND HE DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HE HAD THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO FREE SLAVES ELSEWHERE.
DID HE WANT SLAVERY TO END?
IN THOSE SLAVE STATES THAT WERE PART OF THE UNION?
HE DID.
AND HE ENCOURAGED THOSE STATES, HE URGED THOSE STATES, TO ENACT VOLUNTARY LEGISLATION.
BUT WHEN THEY DIDN'T, THERE WAS NOTHING HE COULD REALLY DO ABOUT IT UNTIL THE 13th AMENDMENT, WHICH WAS A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, THAT ENDED SLAVERY EVERYWHERE IN THE UNION.
ONE OF THE MANY THINGS THAT SURPRISED ME IN THE BOOK WAS HOW MUCH LINCOLN ARRESTED NEWSPAPER EDITORS, JOURNALISTS, AND EVEN POLITICIANS, AND HELD THEM WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, ANY RIGHTS.
WHY DID HE DO THAT?
DID HE KNOW IT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND WAS IT NECESSARY FOR HIM?
HE WAS BEING TOLD IT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL THE WHOLE TIME, YOU KNOW, THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE UNITED STATES WROTE AN OPINION SAYING THAT LINCOLN LACKED THE AUTHORITY TO ARREST PEOPLE AND HOLD THEM WITHOUT BAIL.
AND SENT THE OPINION TO LINCOLN, AND LINCOLN IGNORED IT.
AND MANY CRITICS, THROUGH THE WAR, TOLD HIM YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THIS.
IN HIS OWN MIND LINCOLN CAME TO BELIEVE THAT CRITICS OF THE WAR WERE ENDANGERING THE WAR EFFORT BECAUSE THEY WERE CONVINCING PEOPLE TO RESIST THE DRAFT AND WITHOUT A DRAFT THERE WOULD BE NO SOLDIERS AND WITHOUT SOLDIERS THE WAR COULDN'T BE WON AND HE TOLD HIMSELF, AND HE EVENTUALLY SAID THIS PUBLICLY, I NEED TO BE ABLE TO DRAFT PEOPLE TO WIN THE WAR.
SO I NEED TO BE ABLE TO SILENCE PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING WE SHOULDN'T BE FIGHTING THE WAR.
AND SOMEWHERE, THE NUMBERS ARE VERY HARD TO GET, BUT SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 15,000 AND 40,000 PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED AND HELD WITHOUT BAIL TO END THIS PERIOD OF TIME, FOR AN EXTENDED TIME, WITH NO CHARGES.
HUNDREDS OF NEWSPAPERS WERE CLOSED.
HUNDREDS OF NEWSPAPER EDITORS WERE HELD AND ARRESTED.
AND EVERYBODY, INCLUDING LINCOLN'S SUPPORTERS, CALLED THOSE PEOPLE POLITICAL PRISONERS.
THAT WAS THE TERM 'THE NEW YORK TIMES' USED AT THE TIME, AND THE 'NEW YORK TIMES' WAS IN FAVOR OF IT YET THEY STILL CALLED THEM POLITICAL PRISONERS.
THIS IS A CHAPTER OF OUR HISTORY THAT WE'VE BASICALLY FORGOTTEN BECAUSE AT NO OTHER TIME IN OUR HISTORY HAS THE SUPPRESSION OF FREE SPEECH COME ANYWHERE CLOSE AND WHENEVER WE HAVE DONE IT OTHER TIMES CONGRESS HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN PASSING LAWS LEEK THE ESPIONAGE ACT OR THE SMITH ACT THAT WERE THEN ENFORCED BY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AFTER TRIAL INVOLVING THE JUDICIAL BRANCH.
THIS IS THE ONLY TIME WE'VE HAD MASS ARRESTS, MASS DETENTIONS, WITH NO LEGISLATION AUTHORIZING IT, AND THE JUDICIARY PLAYING NO PART WHATSOEVER.
AND I'LL JUST CLOSE THAT THOUGHT BY SAYING THAT AFTER THE WAR THE SUPREME COURT HELD THAT IT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO APPLY MILITARY LAW IN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY THAT WEREN'T UNDER FOREIGN OCCUPATION OR THAT WEREN'T UNDER WARTIME CONDITIONS.
AND THAT REMAINS THE LAW TODAY.
SO THE SUPREME COURT'S JUDGMENT ULTIMATELY WAS THAT WHAT LINCOLN HAD DONE WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, WE'VE GONE THROUGH A SPATE OF RE-EXAMINING MONUMENTS, TAKING MANY OF THEM DOWN, CHANGING STREET NAMES HERE IN NEW ORLEANS.
LET ME ASK YOUR OPINION ON SOME OF THAT.
WHAT ABOUT THE REMOVAL OF THOMAS JEFFERSON FROM CITY HALL IN NEW YORK, GOOD IDEA, BAD IDEA?
I'M VERY INFLUENCED BY ANY COLLEAGUE ANNETTE GORDON REED WHO WROTE AN AMAZING BOOK ABOUT JEFFERSON AS A MAN BUT ALSO AS A SLAVE HOLDER.
SHE'S PROBABLY THE LEADING EXPERT -- I MEAN, SHE IS DEFINITELY THE LEADING EXPERT THAT WE HAVE IN THE WORLD NOW ON JEFFERSON'S ATTITUDES TO RACE AND HIS TREATMENT OF THE ENSLAVED PEOPLE WHO WERE LITERALLY HIS FAMILY, NOT JUST METAPHORICALLY.
THEY INCLUDED HIS OWN CHILDREN, SOME OF HIS OWN CHILDREN.
AND PROFESSOR GORDON REED'S VIEW, WHICH HAS INFLUENCED ME A LOT.
WHICH IS THAT AS A COUNTRY WE DO BETTER IF WE ACKNOWLEDGE THE BAD ASSOCIATED WITH OUR -- SOME OF OUR LEADERS, AND ALSO THE GOOD.
AND CONTINUE TO RECOGNIZE AND ACKNOWLEDGE PEOPLE LIKE THOMAS JEFFERSON, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY NOT HIDING FROM THE TRUTH AND THE FACTS ABOUT THEIR VIEWS.
I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD DO IN THE CASE OF PEOPLE WHO, LIKE JEFFERSON, MADE TREMENDOUS POSITIVE CONTRIBUTIONS TO OUR COUNTRY.
I MEAN, JEFFERSON WAS OUR PRESIDENT, HE WAS SECRETARY OF STATE, HE WROTE THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.
BUT ALSO WERE DEEPLY FLAWED PEOPLE WITH VIEWS THAT WERE WRONG AND IN SOME CASES KNOWN BY OTHERS TO BE WRONG AT THE TIME.
SO I THINK THAT'S THE KIND OF BOUNDS THAT WE SHOULD STRIKE AND I THINK IT'S DIFFERENT THAN THE QUESTION OF CONFEDERATE MEMORIALS, SOME OF WHICH WENT UP IN A PERIOD OF TIME WHERE THERE WAS A SELF-CONSCIOUS EFFORT TO TAKE AWAY THE RIGHTS THAT HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO BLACK PEOPLE WHERE BLACK PEOPLE HAD GOTTEN TO THEMSELVES UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.
I THINK THOSE SYMBOLS ARE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT THAN OUR SYMBOLS LIKE THE RECOGNITION OF THOMAS JEFFERSON IN NEW YORK CITY.
YOU WERE AN ADVISER TO MARK ZUCKERBERG, AND HELPED IN AN INFORMAL WAY, I THINK, CREATE THAT IDEA OF A FACEBOOK COUNCIL THAT WOULD TRY TO HANDLE SOME OF THE MORAL ISSUES.
AS YOU LOOK AT THE PAPERS THAT HAVE COME OUT ABOUT FACEBOOK AND HOW THEY'VE AMPLIFIED THINGS THAT WERE UNTRUE, AND KNEW THAT THAT WAS HAPPENING, DO YOU THINK WE THESE TO REVISIT SOME OF THE FREEDOMS WE GIVE A COMPANY LIKE FACEBOOK WHEN IT COMES TO HOLDING THEM IMMUNE FROM LAWSUITS, WHEN THEY SPREAD THINGS THAT ARE FALSE AND MISLEADING?
THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT THE OVERSIGHT BOARD, WHICH I HELPED TO BUILD, ABSOLUTELY STANDS FOR THE PROPOSITION THAT FACEBOOK HAS TO BE MUCH MORE TRANSPARENT.
AND HAS TO FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES THAT IT PUTS FORWARD IN A SINCERE AND THOROUGH GOING WAY AND INDEED THE OVERSIGHT BOARD ACTUALLY RECENTLY ISSUED A MAJOR REPORT CALLING ON FACEBOOK TO BE MUCH MORE TRANSPARENT AND I FULLY ENDORSE THAT THOUGHT.
AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT SOME REFORM TO SECTION 230 OF THE COMMUNICATIONS ACT YOU'RE ALLUDING TO IS DESIRABLE.
WE SHOULD BE REALISTIC ABOUT WHAT THAT REFORM CAN DO.
ALL IT CAN DO IS ALLOW COMPANIES LIKE FACEBOOK TO BE SUED IF LIBELLOUS MATERIAL IS PUT ON THEIR SITES.
AND THAT MIGHT BE DESIRABLE.
THAT MAY WELL BE DESIRABLE BUT THE PROBLEMS THAT OUR SOCIETY IS FACING IN RELATIONSHIP TO SOCIAL MEDIA ARE NOT JUST RESTRICTED TO LIBEL.
THEY ALSO INCLUDE A WIDE RANGE OF MISINFORMATION, POLARIZATION, AND OTHER KINDS OF SPEECH THAT CAN HAVE NEGATIVE EFFECTS.
AND THOSE THINGS REQUIRE A DEEPER ANALYSIS OF WHAT KINDS OF REGULATION CAN FIX THEM.
SOME OF THAT REGULATION WILL COME FROM OUTSIDE OF THE COMPANIES BUT BECAUSE OF OUR FIRST AMENDMENT, A LOT OF THAT REGULATION IS GOING TO HAVE TO COME FROM INSIDE THE COMPANIES.
SO I THINK IT REMAINS IMPORTANT TO HOLD PRIVATE COMPANIES, SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, RESPONSIBLE FOR REGULATING THEIR OWN CONTENT, AND NOT TO THINK THAT WE HAVE A MAGIC BULLET AVAILABLE TO US THROUGH GOVERNMENT REGULATION.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE FRAMERS, OR LINCOLN, WOULD FEEL ABOUT OUR POLITICAL DIVISIVENESS TODAY, THE FIGHTS OVER VOTING RIGHTS ACT, GERRYMANDERING, ALL THE THINGS THAT ARE TEARING US APART AS A SOCIETY.
LINCOLN WOULD LOOK AT OUR POLARIZATION, AND SAY IT'S BAD, BUT YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW BAD IT WAS IN MY DAY.
WE STILL, AS AMERICANS, ARE UNITED IN THE BIG PRINCIPLES OF OUR COMMITMENT TO EQUALITY, AND OUR COMMITMENT TO LIBERTY AND OUR COMMITMENT TO LIVING TOGETHER AS A COUNTRY.
WE HAVE REAL AND DEEP DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT HOW TO DO THEM.
WE HAVE REAL AND DEEP DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT HOW VOTING SHOULD OPERATE, ABOUT HOW WEALTH SHOULD BE DISTRIBUTED.
THESE ARE REAL THINGS AND THEY'RE REAL CHALLENGES AND IN OUR POLARIZED MOMENT PEOPLE ARE ANGRY ABOUT THOSE DIVISIONS BUT I BELIEVE WE WILL EVENTUALLY WORK OUR WAY OUT OF THAT POLARIZATION BY FOCUSING ON THE BIG PICTURE OBJECTIVES THAT WE STILL SHARE.
NOT PREDICTING THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN TODAY OR TOMORROW BUT I BELIEVE THAT EVENTUALLY, CERTAINLY IN OUR LIFETIMES, AND PROBABLY IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE, WE'LL SEE A RETURN TO WHAT WE HAVE IN COMMON.
YOU KNOW, THE CLIMATE DOESN'T CARE WHETHER WE'RE ANGRY AT EACH OTHER.
IT'S GOING TO KEEP ON GETTING HOTTER, UNLESS WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
AND I THINK MORE AND MORE AMERICANS ARE REALIZING, THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING WHERE WE NEED TO COOPERATE.
YOU KNOW, THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF OUR COUNTRY IS IN MANY WAYS COLLAPSING, WE NEED THAT TO BE REPAIRED, AND WE NEED TO AGREE ON THAT, AND SURE ENOUGH, CONGRESS WAS ABLE TO REACH SOME SORT OF COMPROMISE, THE GOOD KIND OF COMPROMISE, ON INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.
SO THERE ARE THINGS WE HAVE TO DO IN COMMON, AND WE'LL PULL BACK FROM THIS.
PROFESSOR NOAH FELDMAN, THANK YOU.
THANK YOU, WALTER, FOR HAVING ME.
INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE THERE AND I KIND OF LIKE THE IDEA OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN BEING ON INSTAGRAM.
> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, MORE GOOD NEWS IN THE FIGHT AGAINST COVID-19.
AS PRESIDENT BIDEN ANNOUNCED IN A SPEECH ON THE ECONOMY EARLIER TODAY.
LAST NIGHT WE RECEIVED PROMISING NEWS ABOUT ANOTHER POTENT AND POTENTIAL COVID TREATMENT.
A PILL, A PILL DEVELOPED BY PFIZER, THAT MAY DRAMATICALLY REDUCE THE RISK OF BEING HOSPITALIZED OR DYING WHEN TAKEN SHORTLY AFTER INFECTION, IF YOU'RE INFECTED.
IF AUTHORIZED BY THE FDA, WE MAY SOON HAVE PILLS THAT MAY TREAT THE VIRUS OF THOSE WHO BECOME INFECTED.
THE NEW PFIZER PILL IS ACTUALLY THE SECOND ONE IN THE PIPELINE.
ON THURSDAY BRITAIN APPROVED AN ANTI-COVID-19 PILL FROM MERCK, ALSO SEEKING AUTHORIZATION FOR USE IN THE UNITED STATES.
TO FILL US IN ON THESE DEVELOPMENTS SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT ELIZABETH COHEN JOINS US NOW.
THIS IS BIG NEWS, PFIZER ACTUALLY STOPPING THIS TRIAL BECAUSE THEY WERE SO PLEASED WITH THE RESULTS.
ACTUALLY, BIANNA, IT WAS A TEAM OF MONITORS, AN INDEPENDENT TEAM OF MONITORS THAT WATCHES THE TRIAL, TO SEE HOW IT'S GOING, AND IT WAS THIS INDEPENDENT PANEL ALONG THE FDA THAT SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS IS LOOKING SO GOOD, WE WANT TO STOP IT SO THAT PFIZER HAS A CHANCE TO GET AHEAD OF THE GAME, AND TO DO THIS AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE, TO GO TO THE FDA AND SEEK AUTHORIZATION.
SO LET ME SHOW YOU THE RESULTS THAT MADE THIS MONITORING BOARD WANT TO STOP THE TRIAL EARLY.
ALL OF THEM HAD VERY EARLY COVID, THEY WERE WITHIN THEIR FIRST THREE DAYS OF HAVING SYMPTOMS.
THEY GAVE HALF OF THEM A PLACEBO WHICH IS A PILL THAT DOES NOTHING, JUST A SUGAR PILL AND OUT OF THAT GROUP 27 ORE TIME WERE HOSPITALIZED AND SEVEN DIED OF COVID.
WHEN YOU LOOK OVER HERE AT WHO RECEIVED THE PILL, ONLY THREE PEOPLE WERE HOSPITALIZED, AND NONE OF THEM DIED.
SO THOSE ARE PRETTY DRAMATIC RESULTS.
OBVIOUSLY THOSE -- THAT'S NOT EVERYTHING, THAT'S NOT ALL THE DETAILS.
THAT'S WHAT THE FDA ADVISERS AND THE FDA AND THE CDC IS THERE FOR, BUT THOSE ARE THE BASICS OF WHAT PFIZER FOUND OUT.
HASN'T BEEN REVIEWED BY ANYBODY AT THIS POINT, BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE STARTING WITH.
BIANNA?
AND WHO ARE THE TARGET PATIENTS FOR THIS PILL?
THE TARGET PATIENTS IN THE CLINICAL TRIAL WERE FOLKS WHO WERE EARLY ON, AGAIN WITHIN THREE DAYS OF SYMPTOMS, AND ALSO FOLKS AT A HIGH RISK OF HAVING COMPLICATIONS FROM COVID.
SO IN OTHER WORDS IF IT WAS A YOUNG PERSON WHO WAS ONLY JUST A LITTLE BIT SICK AND CHANCES ARE WOULD BE FINE, THAT'S NOT WHO WAS IN THIS TRIAL.
SO, AGAIN, THAT'S -- AND THAT MAY BE, IF THIS GETS AUTHORIZED.
WHO THIS PILL WILL BE FOR.
YOU MAY NEED TO BE IN A HIGH RISK GROUP.
THERE'S A VARIETY OF REASONS FOR THAT.
SOMETIMES PILLS HAVE SIDE EFFECTS.
NOTHING SHOWED UP IN THIS TRIAL BUT IT WAS ONLY ABOUT 775 PEOPLE.
YOU ONLY WANT TO TAKE A RISK WITH A DRUG FOR PEOPLE WHO REALLY NEED IT.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THIS DRUG IS NOT AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE VACCINE ITSELF.
THAT'S RIGHT.
AND THAT IS SO IMPORTANT, BIANNA, VACCINES ARE THE BEST.
PREVENTION IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN TREATMENT.
IT'S ALWAYS BETTER NOT TO GET SICK THAN TO GET SICK AND THEN TREAT AND THEN TREAT IT.
FIRST OF ALL, THE TREATMENT'S NOT ALWAYS GOING TO WORK.
SECOND OF ALL, YOU NEED TO GET TO IT SO QUICKLY THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK FOR EVERYBODY.
IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO GET THE VACCINE.
I'LL NOTE, THE VACCINE HAS NOW BEEN USED IN HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, AND WE'VE SEEN VERY, VERY FEW SIDE EFFECTS.
THIS IS A NEW PILL.
SO WE DON'T EXACTLY KNOW 100% WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WHEN YOU GIVE IT TO LARGE GROUPS OF PEOPLE.
THE VACCINE IS SORT OF A MORE TRIED AND TRUSTED DRUG AT THIS POINT.
LOOK, BIG NEWS THIS WEEK FOR PFIZER, BIG NEWS IN THE FIGHT AGAINST COVID.
NOW CHILDREN 5 TO 11 CAN GET THEIR VACCINE AS WELL.
I'M NOT KIDDING, RIGHT AFTER THE SHOW I AM TAKING MY 9 AND 5-YEAR-OLD TO GET THEIR VACCINE SHOTS AS WELL.
THIS IS A MOMENTOUS DAY FOR MY FAMILY AND I KNOW FOR MILLIONS OF AMERICANS THIS HAS BEEN A MOMENTOUS OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TOO.
ELIZABETH COHEN, THANK YOU, AS ALWAYS, FOR BREAKING IT DOWN FOR US, WE APPRECIATE IT.
THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR& COMPANY ON PBS.
JOIN US AGAIN.