What’s Wrong with the U.S. Senate?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Next, we return to dry land and the cold hard reality of partisan politics. An evenly divided Senate in the United States means not much is getting done in Washington. Former Republican senator, Trent Lott, was majority leader in 2002 during the last 50/50 split. And he’s been speaking to Walter Isaacson about how to break the current deadlock.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALTER ISAACSON: Thank you, Christiane. And Former Senator Trent Lott, welcome to the show.

TRENT LOTT, FORMER U.S. SENATE REPUBLICAN LEADER: It’s great to be with you. Great to see you again, Walter.

ISAACSON: You were the majority leader, the last time we had a 50/50 Senate. And you were able to make it work with Tom Daschle, who was then the Democratic leader. How did you make it work and why is it not working now?

LOTT: Well, first of all, a lot of credit does go to my very good friend, Tom Daschle. In fact, we talk all the time. I’ve e-mailed with him this morning. So, we had a very strong relationship. When we realized we were going to be in a 50/50 situation, Tom and I sat down and worked out an agreement of how we would proceed. My Republican conference didn’t like it too much but it was the fair thing to do and Tom defended it in his caucus and then, we went to work. The next to six months, when we had 50/50 Senate, we passed significant appropriations bills. We passed the defense bill. We passed affordability of insurance and we passed the no child left behind education bill. We worked. But we told the members on both sides, be prepared to go to the floor of the Senate and debate the appropriations bill or an education bill. We had amendments. We let the process work and it turned out to be a very productive time. We got more done when it was 50/50 than we did after it switched back over with the Democrats taking control again when Jim Jeffords switched parties.

ISAACSON: You said that your Republican conference resisted you making a deal with the Democrat Tom Daschle. Do you think that nowadays the Republican conference is so strong and soo resistant to making deals that it’s harder to do what you did?

LOTT: I think clearly it is harder to do that now. But, you know, I read into (INAUDIBLE) when I presented it to the conference over in the Library of Congress, some of my best friends like Phil Gramm of Texas and (INAUDIBLE) of Oklahoma didn’t like it and Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania and then, Pat Roberts of Kansas stood up and said, what are you all thinking? It’s a 50/50 Senate. Our leader had done the best he can. Let’s you go with this and, you know, see if it works. And that — everybody just shut up and we went to work. But, you know, a lot of it is, they don’t communicate. For instance, Joe Biden and Mitch McConnell had a good relationship. And during the Obama administration, it was Joe Biden that made the deal with Mitch McConnell on the budget that exists until this day and some of the media referred to Joe as the McConnell whisperer. But as I understand it, they’ve only maybe spoken once this year. And the same is to the senators, Republican and Democrat senator, don’t like to talk to each other, the Senate doesn’t like the House. A key part of leadership and getting things done in Washington is communication. You’ve got to talk. And that’s what — you know, Tom Daschle and I had rev (ph) phones on our desk. When I picked that phone up, it rang one place, not at the Kremlin, it rang on Tom Daschle’s desk. He would pick it up and that’s how we got around the media and even some of our colleagues when it was time to get things done. And I think they need to go back to that.

ISAACSON: So, we don’t have that sort of bipartisan camaraderie now and one reason seems to be that the parties have become more polarized. And if I may say so, it’s your party in particular in the age of Trump that doesn’t like people to compromise or to engage in bipartisan things. Do you feel there’s a problem in the Republican Party now?

LOTT: Yes, there is some problem there. And I also think there’s a problem in the Democratic Party. And, you know, Democratic Party gets shifted very dramatically to the left. Where Bernie Sanders is chairman of the Budget Committee, please. But also, on the Republican side, acrimony and the whole debate has gotten somewhat course. They call each other names. Now, one time when I was in the House, I actually had the Speaker Tip O’Neill’s words taken down because he was questioning the motives and integrity of Newt Gingrich. But we worked it out and he never got mad at me about that. When a senator goes to the floor of the Senate and calls one of the leaders a liar, that is unacceptable. If I was there, I would have had a senator that would do that removed from the floor of the Senate. So, yes. It — the Republican Party bears some of the blame for the inability to get things done. You know, Mitch McConnell, by the way, is world class defensive player. I mean, he knows the rules and he can really help or hurt if he wants to, because I really think he knows the rules better than anybody else in the Senate now. Only Bob Byrd knew more about the Senate than Mitch McConnell when he was there.

ISAACSON: Joe Biden is a creature of the Senate. He was able to work both sides of the aisle, even did so as vice president. I thought he was going to come in and be able to have a good relationship with the Senate and work in a very bipartisan way. What happened?

LOTT: I thought the same. You know, I worked with him in the Senate and I saw him take courageous stands whether you agreed with him or not on things like, you know, criminal law bill or the Iraq War Resolution. He took some tough positions and I worked with him and had a good relationship. I have been really surprised he has not become the unifier. I fear that he’s getting bad advice and I’m not quite sure where that all is coming from. But Joe was always left of center but he wasn’t socialist and the positions he’s advocating are out of character with the person that I knew in the United States Senate.

ISAACSON: Mitch McConnell and Joe Biden, they worked together last year on the infrastructure bill. And McConnell helped get it passed. What’s gone wrong now?

LOTT: You know, they haven’t passed a single appropriations bill for this fiscal year. None. And they passed a continued resolution to fund the government until February the 18th, so they could begin there. They could meet and sit down to say, look, what is the top number on social spending? What is the top number on defense? Let’s shave them a little bit here and there, let’s get an agreement and then, let’s go forward with doing, you know, a dozen appropriations bills. That would be huge. We’re talking about the basic operations of the governments. And if we continue to just go with these so-called continued resolutions, you know, funding everything at last year’s level, which is not good for anybody, whether it’s higher or lower. You need that agreement. That’s what I urge him to do. And also, hold this bill the president calls build back better. I call build back broke. I’ve said from the beginning, it’s too big. You’re not going to be able to swallow that. You ought to break that up into pieces. Lose some of the parts of it that, you know, would have (INAUDIBLE) support, whether it’s in healthcare or the tax credits with children. Pick the parts that are bipartisan that really do need to get done and do that. Now, there’s some discussion they might begin to do that but I’m leery that they’re going to, again, overplay their hand, make them too big and unmovable.

ISAACSON: Donald Trump attacked Mitch McConnell for supporting some of the infrastructure bill. Attacked a lot of the Republican senators for doing so. Do you think he would go on attack if indeed they voted for some components of build back better?

LOTT: You know, I didn’t always agree with presidents, even with my own party. Sometimes I didn’t even agree with my constituents. So, I think they did the right thing on the infrastructure bill. I would have voted for it. And I thought Trump’s criticism of McConnell, that was absolutely wrong. But, you know, being a United States senator is kind of a special job. You’ve got a six-year term. The people, we don’t govern by every, you know, votes back home on every issue, we elect good men and women to go to Washington learn the issues and vote on behalf of the people. You’ve got to, every now and then, take a position maybe not that popular. But in your heart and your mind, you know it’s right. You have to get up the next morning to be able to look yourself in the mirror and say, you did the right thing for your country. And so, I would say to Former President Trump, you know, you need to be for something. You know, he did some good stuff when he was president but he just talked himself out of office. Now, he’ll probably call me a rhino, but I was conservative before he was born, probably. Well, wait a minute, I guess he’s my age, come to think.

ISAACSON: This past week, the Senate thought about and debated getting rid of the filibuster when it comes to certain things, in this case, the voting rights type act. Do you strongly support the filibuster or do you think it’s now gotten counterproductive?

LOTT: I do strongly support the filibuster. You know, I’ve been told that I first used the term nuclear option to refer to changing the filibuster. I actually thought about it very seriously one time when I was majority leader and I worked a lot of the votes, and I actually got to where I had the 51 votes. And then, I talked to people that I respected and I thought about it and I backed away and I said, no. There’s a reason why we require 60 votes in the Senate. A lot of good reasons.

ISAACSON: What are those reasons? I mean, why should the majority party not be able to do something like this?

LOTT: Well, you know, you roll over the party, the Senate minority. And two years later, if you’re the minority, the reverse happens. The filibuster forces a good discussion, supposedly, but also when you get 60 votes for a bill, you go back and look at history. Bills that got super majorities are more likely to be supported by the people, to have long lasting effects. And by the way, that’s more or less a quote from Tom Daschle. Now, are there some things that you might want to consider? For instance, I’ve always thought the filibustering the motion for seat was bad because we’re — you’re saying I don’t even want to talk about the bill, but there — it forces bipartisanship. It forces you to think about the best way to get broad support. Legislation gets 60 or more votes, like infrastructure, is going to have a real good effect and will be supported. Legislation that squeezed by with 51 votes or 49, 47 because of absentees will almost always be a problem. So — and I’ve studied the filibuster and I’ve got mad about it. I’ve, you know, prepared to challenge it more than once. When you’re in the majority, it’s a problem. When you’re in the minority, you say thank God.

ISAACSON: Former President Trump has challenged the past election. Said it was fake, said it was wrong, tried to have it overturned. What do you say to that?

LOTT: I say, you know, there’s no question there was probably some things that went on that shouldn’t have. And, you know, Georgia and Pennsylvania and maybe Arizona, I don’t know, but state officials looked at those elections and even if they found there were some irregularities. It was not going to be enough to overturn the Electoral College. And, you know, at some point, you say — you check what happened to the election, you see if there were real problems. But then you have to move forward. And, you know, Richard Nixon did that when he had a very close election with John F. Kennedy. Al Gore did it with George W. Bush. At some point, you say, OK, look, they may have been a problem here, there or somewhere else. But at some point, you have to respect the overall results and go forward. You know, and that’s what I would recommend to everybody.

ISAACSON: In today’s Republican Party, you are really expected to toe the line. I mean, look at what had to Liz Cheney. What do you say to that?

LOTT: Well, I’ve been concerned about the so-called January 6th Committee. I don’t think it was set up properly. There are a lot of reasons why, and you could say, well, it was Pelosi’s fault, no, it was McCarthy’s fault to get that. It was set up in a very strange way. I think that everybody needs to try to find a way to lower the temperature and reach out. The temperature needs to be lowered, no question about that, on both sides. I listened to the debate in the Senate last night, I said, golly, there is the problem. When you listen to senators’ accusations and criticisms of senators of other side of the aisle, I watched the exchange between Senator Collins, whom I respect and just love, actually he’s a senator, a great person, arguing with Senator Ossoff, who basically (INAUDIBLE) integrity. You can’t allow that. And, you know, the leadership needs to help lower the temperature and keep the rhetoric from getting too hot.

ISAACSON: You’re sitting there against the backdrop of the capitol of the United States. A building that you loved. It was invaded by an insurrection a year ago. How do we get to the bottom of that and how do you get your party to say, that was wrong and we need to figure out who’s responsible?

LOTT: You’re right, I did work in that building for 39 years. Four years as a staff member to a senior Democrat. Congressman Bill Colmer, chairman of Rules Committee. Then I was elected to succeed him four later, to serve the House and Senate. I had offices on both sides of the capitol. I adore that building. I called it the, you know, temple of democracy. I’ve been to, you know, services in the rotunda, including recently for Bob Dole. I was in tears the day that happened. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. When I saw them try to break the doors into House Chamber and one of my former security guys standing there with a gun pointed at people, I mean, I was horrified by all of that. I do think that, you know, we need to think about what happened. I think we need to — I do think the one place where they could maybe get some legislation done is to clarify more how the Electoral College count is supposed to be done and what is the role of the vice president and others. So — but how long are we going to continue to rehash this? At some point, we have to learn from this bad experience and think about how it can be avoided in the future through intelligence, through quicker action by the leadership involved in the National Guard. We need to make sure that temple of democracy is protected and that things like what we saw happen can’t happen again. And one of the ways you avoid that is to make sure that the process to confirm the rectoral (ph) count is clear and protected.

ISAACSON: But how can we make sure a January 6th invasion of the capitol won’t happen again when the Republicans have pretty much resisted finding out who was responsible and what happened on that day?

LOTT: Well, it’s — you know, I think probably you’re talking about the resistance being too much. I think it’s the way it’s being done and who they’re subpoenaing, what are they trying to find out. You know, you would expect it from me, you know, I am a Republican, but it looks to be like, in many ways, it’s a partisan witch hunt. How long is this going to go on? You know, what do we need to know? And what are we going to do when we find out? What needs to come out of this? But I suspect that this will be hanging around our necks, good bad and ugly, whatever, all the way to the election and then, maybe something different will happen.

ISAACSON: Senator Trent Lott, thank you so much for joining us.

LOTT: Glad to be with you, Walter.