Why GOP Gov. Sununu Won’t Run for the U.S. Senate

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: As we said, President Biden continues trying to navigate the political gridlock in Washington. And now the Republican Governor of New Hampshire Chris Sununu explains why he doesn’t want to contribute to the paralysis over policy. He believes that most Senate Republicans intend to do nothing but block the Democrats agenda. The Governor joins Walter Isaacson to lay out why he will not be running for the U.S. Senate this year.

WALTER ISAACSON: Thank you, Christiane. And Governor Chris Sununu, welcome to the show.

CHRIS SUNUNU, NEW HAMPSHIRE GOVERNOR: Well, thank you. I’m very excited to be here. How are you doing, Walter?

ISAACSON: Pretty good, pretty good. You just decided not to run for the Senate and to say, as Governor, we actually can do something. And I think that you talk to some of your Republican colleagues. Here’s a quote, it says they were content with the speed at which they weren’t doing anything. They made it clear. They just had to hold out for two years. And you said, so I’m not at that person to be a roadblock for two years. That’s not what I do. Why have things gotten so paralyzed and so polarized in Washington these days?

SUNUNU: Sure. Well, look, it’s a great question. And to be fair, that comment applies to all 100 U.S. senators. Frankly, it’s not — I was talking to Republicans at the time. But I think we can all agree, I’m just sharing the sentiments of most Americans, frankly, that we want stuff done. And when we elect people, when we hire them to do a job, we might not agree with every policy and every position. But at the end of the day, you got to move the ball forward. I love being a governor. It is one of the most challenging things you could ever imagine. But it can also be one of the most fulfilling because you connect with individuals, you connect with people, businesses, kids, schools. You see where the system work. Where it didn’t work. Where we can fix it. How to design a new system. How to make it better. How to balance the budget. I love that stuff. It’s not easy, but I really do love that connection it brings. And it’s no secret Washington doesn’t have that connection, right?

ISAACSON: And why? What’s causing that polarization in Washington now?

SUNUNU: OK, let’s jump right into it. I think one of the biggest problems is the media. And not because I agree or disagree with one opinion or the other but I think the media. Let’s take a step back. I think social media early on realized there was a lot of money to be made in the fight. And the example I give is when, you know, you’re in the fifth grade and you hear there’s going to be a fight at 3:00 between, you know, two bullies in the schoolyard. Where does everyone show up? They show up in the schoolyard. They want to watch the fight. Well, social media realize this early on and they really pounded in and almost encouraged a lot of that polarization, right? People had a voice to kind of scream and shout and be negative. And mainstream media, not PBS, but we’ll call it mainstream media, really caught up a few years ago and realized the polarization is how we make money. And so, what that really drove was individuals, I think, in Washington on both sides of the aisle that, frankly, spent 80 percent of their time trying to get on television, as opposed to 80 percent of the time trying to deliver results. And they can do that. They can be successful in their own way doing that. That’s not the way I roll. It’s really not. And so I thought about kind of being a new voice. I tend to be — I still — I’m 47, I still consider myself pretty young for this business. And I thought, well, maybe I’ll go to Washington and try to be a new voice and bring some collaboration. But at the end of the day, I saw, you know, Democrats didn’t, you know, work — trying to be a roadblock in 17, 18 and 19 and 20. Republicans seem to, you know, be trying to just hold the line. Now, I got to get stuff done. Public service is hard. It’s really hard on family. There’s a lot of scrutiny on it. It can really take a tax in a toll on you. So if I’m going to make those sacrifices, I’m going to ask my friends and family to make those sacrifices. And then we’ll going to get something done in meantime.

ISAACSON: One of the things that we’ve learned through this coronavirus crisis is how hard it is to balance the need for public health and the need to keep the economy and schools and everything open. Why do we get that balance wrong? And how can we fix that?

SUNUNU: I got to be frank, I don’t think we’ve gotten wrong in New Hampshire. I really think the solution is not a national balance, because there isn’t such a thing, right? Every state is different. Look at Massachusetts, it’s 30 miles to my south and they’re so fundamentally different than New Hampshire. What their needs are, how their schools are managed, how their businesses can be managed, what their dynamics are, it’s all very different. And so, Massachusetts should design Massachusetts solution. New York, California, Arizona, also different than New Hampshire. When you let states have the flexibility of that design, they can create the balance, because the key to balance is listening to your constituents. The key to balance is listening to the needs of the business where it’s working, where doesn’t work. Have a feedback response system, a changing dynamic that isn’t just so static, one-size-fits-all out of Washington, but can say, you know what, our small cities in New Hampshire work this way. Our rural communities work that way. The Southern Tier works one way. The northern part of my state up on the Canadian border works another. That’s so different than any other state. I would never try to tell another state what their balance should be or what their formula should be. And so that’s really the key to getting the balance. And that’s why I think when governors are given them more flexibility as a nation, that’s actually how we have more success.

ISAACSON: President Biden recently kind of agreed with you, said more should be done at the state level, we should push it there. What would you like to have him push down to the state level?

SUNUNU: Well, I got to tell you that was an amazing when he said — I was on a zoom call when he said it. And I think we all took a breath, and when even Democrat governors were like, wow, this would be great. You know, we really have not had with this administration the flexibility we had with the previous administration. There’s various reasons for that. But, I mean, ultimately, let me give you a quick example. They provided $180 million rental relief program for New Hampshire. Same program for all the different states. I mean, I think billions of dollars for a couple other states. And I said, look, rental really isn’t our top priority here, but building more housing is, right? Achieving that goal of housing and you build more housing, the costs come down, you have more open market, but New Hampshire’s economy is so strong, people are moving in so fast. We want to spur the development of new workforce housing. You know, for the teachers and the nurses and just the average worker out there. And I’ve been begging the Department of Treasury. And I got a letter yesterday saying no, no, you can only use rental relief, you can’t use these unspent dollars on, you know, building more a workforce housing, which doesn’t make much sense to me, right? We have a workforce housing. We’re trying to solve a workforce housing crisis. But we can’t do what we need. Look, maybe in New York or California or another state, rental relief is the top priority, might not be for us. So that’s just one example of where I think we can make huge strides when you let states to design their own systems.

ISAACSON: One of the things has been nationalized is an attempt to have vaccine mandates. Now, you’ve been vaccinated, you’ve been booster shotted, yet you don’t think there should be a vaccine mandate or businesses should be allowed to put a vaccine mandate on their employees. Why is that?

SUNUNU: Well, no, just to be very clear. I don’t believe in a government mandate. If a business wants to create a mandate, that’s absolutely their choice. I — and I fully support that because that was the rule before the pandemic. Businesses have always had the ability to say, I want my employees vaccinated. That’s going to be my choice. Because you know what, it’s their business. It shouldn’t be the government telling them they can’t do that or a hospital, right? That’s a private organization. It’s their business, whether they want to implement a vaccine mandate. That is part of the game. Now when the government forces it on a business or forces it on an individual, whole different ballgame. Now the government is telling you how to manage your own health choices, and whatnot. And that just gets — that’s just somewhere I fundamentally don’t agree. I absolutely —

ISAACSON: You all have had a pretty good success in New Hampshire —

SUNUNU: Doing great.

ISAACSON: — getting people vaccinated. Tell me how you did it.

SUNUNU: Good messaging, making sure folks had the data. They weren’t — we weren’t just saying, listen to the governor, the governor says you must. That’s not how we roll here. We do it with a very positive attitude. We show all the data behind it. We encourage people to talk to their doctors, and we get very out in front of it in a very aggressive way. Not a negative aggressive way, but a really a positive way. We have commercials and ads, and we really encourage people to talk. We were on the forefront, and all of New England was on the forefront of the COVID pandemic back in 2020. We really felt at heart here, but we managed really, really well. And we provided a lot of opportunity and flexibility, not the government saying, you thou shalt not do this. But saying, here’s the opportunity we can create so that your customer feels comfortable coming in the door, your employees feel comfortable so you can maintain them as employees and businesses have the flexibility to do that. In the case of businesses back in 2020, we let them decide the guidelines and the protocols that they wanted to use. And then myself and our epidemiologists and our Department of Public Health would adjust it to make sure it really melt — met health standards. But allowing those businesses be the designers of their own guidelines was an immense opportunity in the state. Now, if I may, on the same side, I don’t think the government should ever tell a business you can’t mandate a vaccine. Again, the government is just telling people who they can hire and fire. No way. I’m a business guy. I ran a ski resort for a number of years. I had 800 employees. If the government ever tried to come in and tell me who I could hire and fire and why and on vaccines, that’s just — that’s definitely not right for the (INAUDIBLE) state, I don’t think is right for the country. And I think we’ve struck that the right balance,

ISAACSON: You say that the vaccine was a game changer. Of course, you got vaccinated. You had your booster shot. As a leader, you know, you set an example for the people. And do you feel that other leaders, other governors should be more forthright and say, yes, I believe that these vaccines are working. Here’s why, and I recommend you get them.

SUNUNU: Absolutely. Look, the vaccine works. The booster is a vital important — a vitally important part of that. And from a leadership perspective, you have to lead by example. I just always believe in that. Now, look, if a governor firmly doesn’t believe that the vaccine works, that’s their choice. I mean, I would tell them to do something they don’t  fundamentally believe in, but they’re wrong. I mean, it does work. The boosters are important. And you just have to lead by example. There’s no question about that. And, you know, you have to do it. I don’t mean to keep going back to this and sound almost hokey about it. But you have to do it with some positivity. You have to do saying, look, this is a scary time for individuals. We’re going to connect with your empathy on it and empathize with that fear that a lot of families are — were feeling both before we had the vaccine, and then during the vaccine, saying, gee, what does this mean? You’re asking me to give my child a shot of an unknown thing? You know, most people, virtually everyone in the country has given their kids a vaccine in one way or another already, right? We don’t expect everyone to be, you know, chemists and epidemiologist on every vaccine. So — but that’s why we look at the FDA and the CDC, and they go through their process. They don’t skip steps. There was an Emergency Use Authorization, and then they got full use authorization. So there is a process that was followed to ensure that these were safe. And so, you know, that’s why it’s our job to promote that data, promote that science and say, this is safe, it’s effective, that kind of pushback on all the misinformation out there. Not ignore it, but, you know, talk about it and say we know there’s misinformation out there. But here’s the hows and whys around it. Not just don’t just believe me, talk to your doctor, talk to your pediatrician, talk to the real experts in your community that can make sure that they’re dotting the i’s crossing the t’s and get you a comfortable place to make that decision.

ISAACSON: Across the spectrum at either extremes as sort of this weird paranoid sense about the vaccine that goes all the way from a Robert F. Kennedy, you know, to a Joe Rogan, to a Tucker Carlson. And, you know, we can argue against that. But somehow it seems to me, push back if I’m wrong, that a lot of people in your party, leaders, responsible leaders cater a little bit to that paranoid populism, instead of just being upfront and out there the way you are. Do you think — why do you think they become somewhat captured by the fear of saying what you just said about vaccines?

SUNUNU: Well, let’s be fair. I think both sides of the political spectrum, there are leaders on both sides in the party for different reasons that are captured by the extremist views. You could say that there are some Republican leaders have tended to go with the anti-vax crowd on the right. You can talk about some of the Democrat leadership that goes with the ultra-socialist progressive woke stuff on the left. I don’t think that’s America on either side, right? And so I think you need leadership that says, you know, I’m a Republican and I stand for X, Y, and Z. Or I’m a Democrat and I stand for X, Y, and Z but I’m not going to cater to these extremes because those aren’t my real constituents. They’re loud. They tend to look very vocal on social media, but they’re really just talking in these smaller echo chambers, right? We need to be forthright about understanding who we represent, what the average citizen is dealing with on a daily basis, and go attack those problems.

ISAACSON: The Biden administration, through a whole lot of possible programs into what’s called Build Back Better and then never really could get much traction. Do you think there’s a chance to break it up into bite- sized pieces in which there could be bipartisan consensus on some things? And which of those things might you support? Whether it’s early childhood education, or child tax credits or community colleges?

SUNUNU: Sure. So look, I was not a fan of Build Back Better at all, because it was a massive — when you — just as you kind of describe, you have so many different programs so much money, it was almost too hard to even understand where the dollars were going. And last time I checked, we got 30 trillion in debt. Now, that doesn’t mean that we can’t take some bite-sized chunks. If there’s some good pieces in there, I have no doubt 100 percent guarantee that you could find consensus across the aisle, bring some Republicans with you. And it’s so important to do that. And, look, I didn’t support the President, President President Biden. You know, I didn’t vote for the guy. But I can tell you that the bulk of America did support him with the idea that he would bring his relationships to the table, his moderate approach to the table, and he would be the one that could reach over to a dozen, two dozen of the Republicans, especially in the Senate, or even the House, use those — that relationship connection to build those bridges and get certain pieces done. And you do that, just as you said, breaking it up into bite-sized chunks, finding what’s going to work and what are just the deal breakers. They there was no attempt to do that, whatsoever. And if I can be a little bit critical, I try to stay positive. But boy, if the Democrat Party spent as much energy trying to reach across the aisle to Republicans, as they did beating up on Senators Manchin and Sinema, there’s no doubt would have something passed, right? But boy, they spent all their efforts just saying you all have to be with us because you have a D after your name. It’s a very authoritarian approach. And that’s not the American way. So I’m hoping that President Biden can still use those relationships and use that ability to create some successes there.

ISAACSON: You’d say that you blame the Democrats are not reaching across the aisle. But it seems that the Republican Party, especially in the Senate, recently, has just been down the line 100 percent voting no on things. Don’t you think there’s a problem on that side of the aisle as well?

SUNUNU: Look, I’ve said all 100 — I think all 100 senators, my blame and my criticism of the Senate works on both sides of the aisle. The Democrats are the leadership position. It’s their responsibility to reach across the aisle. The — remember, the infrastructure bill got done, because Republicans reached across the aisle and demanded that, look, we pare it back a little bit, we find a common ground. And that’s how that got done. So I’m not just trying to cast blame, but I would cast the same blame on the majority party, if it were Republicans if they weren’t trying to reach across the aisle to get things done. I think there’s a responsibility in that. Now, it doesn’t mean everything the Republicans want you to get passed. Of course not. It’s called concessions. You know, the minority party doesn’t mean that they have no voice. That is not the American way. They have to have some voice that’s why I’m very supportive of the filibuster, as were the Democrats a couple years ago. And that’s why it was designed to make sure that the minority party has some sense of voice. But when it’s all or nothing authoritarian or nothing. And as you talked about with Build Back Better, there really wasn’t a whole lot of concession. It was, you know, it’s our way of the highway. If whoever the party is doing that approach, that’s just not really the right way. And, of course, it failed. So let’s take it in chunks. Let’s take it in approaches. Let’s go grab that low hanging fruit while we can and show America that when they hire us to do a job as elected officials, we’re going to deliver something.

ISAACSON: As you think about the national scene, does what you said about the need for a sensible sort of common sense approach to things, make you think, all right, maybe you would consider running for president on that platform?

SUNUNU: I don’t know. You know, look, one thing I really preach very strongly is, if you’re talking about 2020, you’re missing the boat. If you’re worried about what’s going to happen in 2024, you’re missing the boat. If you’re worried about politics, focus on 2022. Inspiring good new candidates to step up with their ideas. Inspiring folks that are part of that 80 percent, I’ll call it that giant middle if you will, not the extremist to say you do have a voice and you do have a pathway for microphone. That’s what we have to. And as a Republican, I’m very passionate about trying to bring that next generation up, trying to show folks that there is a pathway to be successful to be a contributor to their community. You know, so I’m just focused on ’22. I think there’s a huge opportunity for Republicans to win in ’22 because the record right now with Democrats just isn’t good. I mean, there’s just no two ways to deny that.

ISAACSON: Governor Chris Sununu, thank you so much for being with us.

SUNUNU: This was a lot of fun. Thank you.

ISAACSON: Thank you.