If the Rioters Found Pence “They Would’ve Killed Him”

MICHEL MARTIN, CORRESPONDENT: Thanks Bianna. Olivia Troye, thank you so much for talking with us.

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER TO MIKE PENCE: Thanks for having me.

MARTIN: You know, your career has been devoted to counter terrorism and national security, and I’m imagining that your worldview training in that space didn’t really envision American citizens attacking the capital with this sense of entitlement, and I’m wondering how you are processing that, and especially now that you’re reliving it again through these hearings.

TROYE: Yeah. It’s been horrifying. It’s been horrifying to see the footage and to hear the words that if they found my former boss, Mike Pence, they would’ve killed him. The fact that that, that group of people came 40 feet from the sitting vice president of the country and his staff and his family, and also just the footage of, of, and, and the communications that took place with these groups, which I think were there, the committee’s still gonna, hopefully will, will bring that forward more to fruition. It’s just the extent of coordination that happened between a branch of government a sitting president and his people with a group of extremist groups that I never thought I’d ever see in our country, right? This is something that you see in foreign countries. You see this in failing democracies at times. Like you said, as a national security person, we watched this kind of thing happen overseas and I think for many of us in national security, it’s appalling to watch this unfold here domestically, especially because that threat lives on. These groups are still out there coordinating. They’re in our communities. In many cases, they’ve attended school board meetings or they’re very active in local Republican parties right now. Some of these people that were there that day on January 6 are running for office. Why wasn’t there fencing?? I’ve gotta tell you that still bothers me today having been working inside the white house and watching the fencing go up and all the security precautions that happened in the summer of 2020, I woke up on January 6th and was confused by the images of no barriers, no fencing, nothing, no precaution was set up when this was going to clearly be a very heated situation, given everything that we’ve been seen online, I’ve been out there warning publicly. And so all of these things I think have been just very hard to watch as a national security person, especially someone who in more recent years focused on the Homeland Homeland space.

MARTIN: So I wanna dig into a couple of things that you’ve raised here, the first being your former boss, the former vice president. You know, it’s, it’s look, it’s not a secret that he’s been both an object of fascination and some derision depending on where you sit over the many years that he served in the Trump administration. But he now knows and cannot deny that the president that he served so loyally was willing to see him die…and his family. And, and I just think it’s really, I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding why he has had so little say about that. Can you explain it?

TROYE: Yeah. I think that it would be better for the country to hear from Mike Pence himself. I have actually, I’ve wanted him to come forward right in the immediate aftermath of January 6th. I think it would’ve done a great deal of good to walk back the stolen election lies that still live on today, to come forward right away and say, look, this is, this is wrong. This is dangerous for our country. We’ve gotta stop heading this direction, but he hasn’t. And I think it’s just – I think that shows you where a lot of the Republican leaders right now believe that the base of the Republican party is. And I think for Mike Pence, I think he is hoping to run for president in 2024, that’s a likelihood that he will. And I think he’s trying to balance how does he sort of walk a fine line here in terms of where the Republican parties voters are, in terms of what they think, where they think the voters are. And what does that mean for his future to come forward? Does he let his staff continue to speak for him? Which clearly Greg Jacob, who worked very closely for him was his lawyer and Mark Short were there with him in the moment. And so I think that they’re communicating a lot of what went on. Is it more powerful to hear from Mike Pence directly? I think it would be, I think there’s a whole group of voters out there who I think it would resonate. And I think, you know, you can’t discount him. You can’t say that this is a mischaracterization of the events that happened when these are Republicans speaking up, right? Mike Pence is a lifelong conservative Republican who is put at great risk by Donald Trump.

MARTIN: But I’m asking you, can you explain why he seems so unwilling to speak up when he did the hard thing already. I mean, the hard thing was to resist these entreaties, the hard thing was to say no and to say no to the president’s face. And clearly he’s not a person – the former president doesn’t wanna hear no when it comes to his agenda, whatever it may be. So he did the hard thing, but what he won’t do is talk about it publicly or talk about his state of mind. I’m wondering if you can help us understand him.

TROYE: Yeah, I think honestly, I think it’s a political calculation. I think that he is trying to appease a base – a base that already considers him a traitor for the majority of it — and I think he’s trying to walk a fine line between continuing to sort of alienate that base, which he thinks he will need in a 2024 presidential election. So I really do think it comes back to politics. And I would say, in this moment, what more have you got to lose? You’ve already lived this, your life has been put at risk. I think it matters more to put the country over anything else right now.

MARTIN: Why do you think so many people want to believe this? Because, because clearly the protagonist here couldn’t accomplish this, you know, on their own. And it, the, the success of this demagoguery rests on the willingness of other people to believe it, and to follow along. Do you, do you have a sense of like, why are so many people willing to buy into this? What is the appeal? Do you have any sense of that?

TROYE: I think in a lot of cases, it’s been a sense of belonging is what you see a lot of times with populations that kind of get disenfranchised and they find a cause and they’re, preyed upon by a lot of these groups. I mean, there’s a lot of recruitment going on in chat channels and the dark web and more alternate websites where they’re radicalizing people and they’re telling each other lies. And look the other aspect is, is that foreign adversaries really exploit moments like this as well. So we’ve opened the apparatus to enable foreign actors to move in and encourage these narratives. That’s one of my concerns going forward for this election in the fall, is as the stolen election and these sort of divisive narratives get pushed out by our own people, by our own Americans, by Republicans out there who are pushing this or candidates that are pushing this kind of thing, foreign adversaries will come in and also encourage that kind of thing. And I can tell you, this is like the right playing ground for them. This is the best thing that could happen to them because it’s Americans attacking each other. And they will, they will do their best to amplify those messages and create division. And that’s my concern going into November to be honest. And I think that’s important for Americans to understand that you, you, you may think that you’re talking to a fellow American sometimes in these situations, but you have to understand that there are bad actors like Russia and other countries that want to exploit this moment. And I think that is that equally dangerous part of all of this, is that they want another January sixth to happen that plays it to their favor. And so I think that is, that is where again, we get back to our democracy being in peril because not only is it happening domestically here, and we worry about what is happening in terms of the dynamics here; it is also a situation where we know that the foreign, that our foreign adversaries are taking full advantage of this.

MARTIN: What should happen now? I mean, cause honestly the other thing that stands out is it’s not just that, you know, that the, your former boss, the former vice president Mike Pence, has been so reluctant to have very much to say about this, but there’s an entire generation of foreign policy leaders, Republicans who have had very little to say. What is your responsibility at a time like this? And what is their responsibility at a time like this? What do you wanna see happen?

TROYE: I mean, in an ideal world, which you know, given the factors that we’re seeing and the ongoing characterization of this I don’t think will come to fruition, but I think it’s important for Republicans to say enough and take a stand, start speaking up. I mean, it’s one thing to have these conversations behind closed doors. You know, I’ve heard some reporting earlier today where Republicans are talking about how effective the hearings have been about presenting just the factual evidence. But it, then it’s important to come forward and take a stand and stop having these private moments. I’ve been there where people have a lot of these closed door conversations about how concerning something was that Trump was doing while he was in office. Well, here we are, where years later, we are still being intimidated and bullied by this one man who completely controls the Republican party right now. And I say this as a lifelong Republican, where, you know, we should be supporting the Liz Cheneys who took a stand, we should be supporting you know, the individuals that are principled that voted to convict Trump in the impeachment because they were in the right. I mean they did it based on facts and they knew that what had happened was wrong, but instead they’ve pushed these people out of the party and these people have suffered the same threats that many of these individuals that are the witnesses in these hearings are facing today and have faced. And so I think it’s part of it is, is it fear? maybe that you don’t want to bring the wrath of Donald Trump and others of this extremisms towards you and you don’t, you don’t wanna incur that? But at some point I would say Donald Trump has shown no loyalty to anyone. I mean, right. Mike Pence is a testament to that, that there is absolutely no loyalty. It is a one way street when it comes to him. And he continues to destroy what the Republican party was before. And so I think for our country and for our democracy, it matters and it, and they should be taking a stand and they should be calling this out and saying no more, but I just don’t see watching Kevin McCarthy watching honestly, the Republican national committee and the type of tweets and rhetoric that they espouse and put out and they mischaracterize their hearings, even though it’s all facts and it’s Republicans in their own words, it’s clear that they’ve made a decision that this is where they think their voting base is. And that is where they’re gonna cater to it, regardless of what that means for our country.

MARTIN: And maybe this goes beyond your sort of wheelhouse of national security training, but it is sort of puzzling to you ask these people, like, what if the shoe were on the other foot, would you consider this acceptable conduct?

TROYE: It would be outrageous to them. Right. I thought that was a very good point.

MARTIN: That, so why, I guess I’m just curious, like why they don’t see — throughout the Republican party apparatus, throughout the apparatus, they don’t see that if you don’t have a country run by law, you have a country run by violence or whoever – “might makes right”. And why don’t they, why isn’t that more persuasive? I’m wondering to people other than yourself and former staff members like yourself, that’s what I’m so sort of puzzled by, what do you – do you have a theory about that?

TROYE: Yeah, look, I think all of these people know better. They know the truth, they know the reality and they know that it’s a double standard, but right now they have decided that this is a money maker because they have been fundraising off of this. That’s one thing that we all need to remember is that they’re still taking, people’s hard earned money based on a lie. And based on something that has now been shown that they knew was illegal. They know that it’s not true. But they have been able to fundraise off of it, which honestly is one thing that just really makes me upset is just thinking about the fact that they continue to take from a lot of these individuals who have bought into this whole thing. And so a lot of it, it’s, it’s a double standard. There’s no way around that. Right. And so in this moment, now the power of this whole machine that they have, where it’s an echo chamber and the power of disinformation, is that we may see the Republican party shift later on and flip the narrative on its head when it’s convenient for them, which we have seen them do.

MARTIN: Is there anything in particular you’re looking to see as these hearings continue that you would point us to?

TROYE: You know, I think I, I want, I, I think it would be powerful if Pat Cipollone would come forward. He was the president’s lawyer and he as has been stated in the hearings it sounds like he really took objection to this and threatened to quit at times. So what really happened there? I also think it would be important to hear from some of the white house staff especially those that worked directly for Mark Meadows so that they can share how this all unfolded and what they saw. I think details like that matter, because I think these are, you can’t discount the fact that this is someone who lived it, right. And I think it’s their, their, their firsthand witnessing of what happened and the extent of how many people knew, which we are seeing in these hearings, how many people were aware that this was all a lie and that it was wrong and that they tried to stand up to this individual, or at least tell him at times, but then in the end, some of these people made a conscious decision to double down on it. Right. Which is what you see with Eastman. He keeps coming back and saying, okay sorry about that attack that almost killed you, but can you go on and do this now? Can you still go on, even though it led to the death of law enforcement officers and hurt many and put you in danger as well to Mike Pence, but you’re still gonna do this, right? I mean, just to, to, to see that develop and hear these stories first hand, I think is important. So I’ll be looking for that.

MARTIN: I mean, obviously the current moment is very disturbing if you adhere to a certain set of values, right, if you adhere to a certain set of values that believes that, you know, elections should matter, that, you know, foundational concepts should prevail that democracy has some meaning. It’s a difficult moment, but is there anything that you see in this moment that suggests a way forward?

TROYE: I think, you know, I hope that it’s gonna come down to voters and Americans who are paying attention and listening. And while I know there’s a lot of talk about the hearings and how, you know, it’s an echo chamber nobody’s gonna, they’re not gonna break through. I don’t, I don’t agree with that. Actually. I think that these hearings have been effective in terms of being very factual in a bipartisan way. And to the point of Republicans, like I think back to Watergate, the Watergate scandal, right? And the Republican caucus really stood by Nixon. When those hearings began, I think it was in the spring of 1973 and it, and it took until July of the following year for them to finally break. And so all I can hope is that we’re, there’s a crack in the foundation here of hoping that a lot of these Republicans as this come forward, they, I mean, look, I, we know that they wanna pivot from Trump. A lot of them right behind closed doors, they despise him. Mitch McConnell is not a fan. But will they do this publicly and start to move the party in a different direction is yet to be seen. But maybe I, I want to hope that that will be the case because it’s better for our country. And like the reality is we should never have someone be above the law, no matter how rich you are, no matter how powerful, no matter who it is, accountability and justice matters. That is the foundation of our country. And so I think, I, I hope that there will be accountability as these facts continue to come to fruition.

MARTIN: Olivia Troye. Thanks so much for talking with us once again.

TROYE: Thanks for having me.