Read Full Transcript EXPAND
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
Here’s what’s coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to make clear that we can continue to lead in the region and not create a vacuum.
GOLODRYGA (voice-over): As President Biden asserts American influence in the Middle East, is he turning a blind eye to human rights abuses in Saudi
Arabia? I speak with Saudi activist Lina al-Hathloul.
Meanwhile:
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): Let me be very clear. I am not in love with politics. I’m in love with change.
GOLODRYGA: In the United States, a new generation of leader steps up. Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock weighs in on his new memoir, “A Way Out
of No Way.”
Then:
ADOLF EICHMANN, NAZI LEADER (through translator): Good. We have destroyed an enemy.
GOLODRYGA: Adolf Eichmann, a voice from the past, haunts a new documentary. In “The Devil’s Confession,” Israeli director Yariv Mozer
unearths the Nazi leader’s confessions.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Welcome to the program, everyone. I’m Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
President Biden addresses war and peace in the Middle East today, signing a joint declaration expanding America’s security relationship with Israel,
while putting daylight between himself and Israeli prime minister Yair Lapid on the use of military force against Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Today, you and I also discussed America’s commitment to ensuring Iran never obtains a nuclear weapon. This is a vital security interest to
both Israel and the United States and I would add for the rest of the world as well.
I continue to believe that diplomacy is the best way to achieve this outcome.
YAIR LAPID, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Words will not stop them, Mr. President. Diplomacy will not stop them. The only thing that will stop Iran
is knowing that, if they continue to develop their nuclear program, the free world will use force.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: The president says his visit, it’s an opportunity to fix the — quote — “mistake” of walking away from America’s influence in the Middle
East.
But the next leg of his trip brings President Biden to Saudi Arabia, where he will meet with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. Critics fear that the
visit could end in compromises on human rights and democratic values that could further damage America’s global reputation.
Correspondent Nic Robertson has this report from Saudi Arabia on bin Salman’s reformist vision and his brutal record.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): President Joe Biden might see this on his way to meeting Saudi’s leaders, whole
neighborhoods of the kingdom’s historic second city, Jeddah, erased for modernization.
Or he may see this, thousands upon thousands of new homes being built on government orders.
(on camera): What Biden is unlikely to see are the people we met who told us they’re unhappy their homes were demolished, but are afraid to speak out
publicly.
(voice-over): The housing changes are a fragment of massive reforms authored by the kingdom’s leader in waiting, Crown Prince Mohammed bin
Salman, whom Saudi critics outside the country say is failing to deliver.
YAHYA ASSIRI, FOUNDER, ALQST: It’s very clear there is a big failure with the vision, basically because it is a one-man vision.
ROBERTSON: Yet stroll Jeddah’s old streets, as we did, and you will find plenty of fans of the crown prince.
Abdul Majeed (ph) was one of them, Nabil Abdallah.
NABIL ABDALLAH, JEDDAH SHOP OWNER: My dream, our children get a good chance. Now we are — see this in new vision 2030.
ROBERTSON (on camera): Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s Vision 2030.
ABDALLAH: I’m with him. I agree with him.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Where generations of his family lived and worked, the crown prince’s renovations bringing ancient homes back to life.
(on camera): But what happens if he doesn’t deliver, he can’t deliver?
ABDALLAH: Why you think negative? We will already now see the positive, something happened.
ROBERTSON: Yes. Yes.
ABDALLAH: Why do you think bigger — if we think all negative, we cannot go one step.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): But MBS’ dreams are big and could make or break for country, Neom, a futuristic city yet to be built, its epicenter, and,
if the crown prince has his way, its economic engine for generations to come.
Yet, despite several years in the making, developers ‘videos are all we have. Government permission to shoot there hasn’t yet been facilitated.
Grandiose visions of kings are nothing new here. The last king, Abdullah, had his version. I covered it 15 years ago.
NIDAL JAMJOOM, FORMER CEO, EMAAR KAEC: It is going to be half the size of total Bahrain and three times Manhattan.
ROBERTSON (on camera): Three times the size of Manhattan?
JAMJOOM: Three times Manhattan, yes.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Reality never caught up with imagination. Hundreds of thousands of proposed jobs never materialized.
(on camera): MBS’ vision will be the test of him at every level. If there are jobs and a brighter future for most people, then happy days. But if his
reforms falter, even fail, how will he respond?
If it’s through repression, then his relationship with President Biden and other Western leaders could crumble.
(voice-over): For now, leverage is mostly on MBS’ side, a pivotal regional power with vital energy supplies at a time of U.S. need.
LINA AL-HATHLOUL, SAUDI HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: He managed to basically make the Biden administration back down on all its promises regarding Saudi
Arabia and MBS.
ROBERTSON: Hathloul’s sister, a women’s rights activist, was freed from Saudi jail, but not the country, not long after Biden called for her
release early last year.
She fears MBS will read Biden’s visit as approval for more arrests.
AL-HATHLOUL: Repression will never stop as MBS is in power. It’s about the person he is and the only thing that could change things is accountability
from the international community.
ROBERTSON: Biden’s time in Jeddah will be a harsh reminder of realpolitik at its toughest.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Nic Robertson for that report.
And in that report, we heard from human rights advocate Lina al-Hathloul.
Lina’s sister Loujain is a women’s rights activist who served a prison sentence in Saudi Arabia and remains under a travel ban there now. Lina in
Washington calling attention to Saudi Arabia’s political prisoners.
I asked for her view on President Biden’s response to human rights abuses under MBS.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Lina, thank you so much for joining us.
You are coming to us from Washington, D.C., where you have been meeting there with officials just as the president is planning on his trip to visit
Saudi officials and more specifically Mohammed bin Salman in Jeddah.
Talk to me about those meetings in Washington, D.C., and some of the concerns that you have about this upcoming visit.
AL-HATHLOUL: Absolutely.
Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me.
Yes, it’s very important for us to make the Biden administration understand that they cannot back down on their promises. A year ago, they applauded my
sister’s release, saying it was the right thing to do. They said that they will make Saudi Arabia a pariah, that they will distance themselves from
MBS.
And now what we see is that they’re backing down on everything. So the issue is that they will rehabilitate MBS, who killed Jamal Khashoggi, who
tortured my sister, who started a war in Yemen, who started diplomatic crisis with Qatar.
He imprisoned the prime minister of Lebanon. So if we do not stop MBS now, if we do not make sure that he is held accountable for all these
violations, we are creating a monster that won’t be stopped. In 10 years, he will become the new Putin. So it’s very important to put the pressure
now.
GOLODRYGA: You mentioned your sister Loujain. The last time that you were on this program, you were optimistic about President Biden and his
administration’s commitments to stand up for human rights.
Your sister had just been released from prison after serving over 1,000 days there. We should note that the backstory is that she was arrested
after she was protesting and participating in protests about the woman’s right to drive. And we should note that this was after that law that was
banned women from driving was lifted in Saudi Arabia.
Nonetheless, she was placed under arrest. How is she doing right now?
AL-HATHLOUL: Yes, absolutely.
My sister was imprisoned for her activism. And she was sentenced as a terrorist because she was an activist. So, she my sister Loujain is still
under a travel ban. She lives under fear. She is monitored. After her release, she has been targeted Pegasus. She was also — government-backed
attempts of hacking her e-mail. So, she lives under a constant state of fear. She is far from being free.
GOLODRYGA: Pegasus is that spyware created by the Israeli tech company NSO that was blacklisted ultimately by the United States for its role in spying
on citizens in different countries.
I want to ask you to respond to what we heard from President Biden today when he was meeting with the Israeli prime minister, Yair Lapid, because he
was specifically asked about whether or not he would bring up Jamal Khashoggi and his murder and the role that MBS played, according to U.S.
intelligence, in that murder.
And here’s what he said. He said: “My view on Khashoggi has been absolutely, positively clear. And I have never been quiet about talking
about human rights. The reason I’m going to Saudi Arabia is to promote U.S. interests. In a way, I think we have an opportunity to reassert our
influence in the Middle East.”
So he really stopped short in directly answering that question as to whether he would bring up Jamal Khashoggi’s murder. What does that tell
you? Are you concerned that perhaps this won’t be a top priority with this upcoming meeting?
AL-HATHLOUL: Yes, I think it won’t be a priority.
But what is important to note is that, when President Biden justifies his visit, he talks about his intentions, how he sees things, but, at the end
of the day, what is really important is how it is perceived within the Saudi government, how MBS will receive this message.
So, for MBS, it is a big win. Whatever the Biden administration says or justifies, for them, Biden is coming to Saudi Arabia, he will be meeting
with MBS, and that is all that matters to them. For them, it is a big win. MBS is rehabilitated. He knows that he got away with all this scandal, with
all this pressure, and that’s nothing will stop him.
And he knows that he can double down now, that he can continue with his violations, and that no one will hold him accountable. So it’s a very
dangerous state that we are entering at this point. We are entering in a stage where MBS knows that he can journalists into pieces without any kind
of accountability, that even when the CIA report considers him and confirms that he is at the head of this crime, he can still walk with all impunity.
GOLODRYGA: We should note that MBS, despite U.S. intelligence denies, any role in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi.
I’m just curious to get your response on the argument that a lot has changed. Then-candidate Biden had the luxury of saying that Saudi Arabia
was a pariah state and blamed MBS for the death of Jamal Khashoggi. That having been said, he is now president of the United States. There is a war
ongoing by the Russians in their invasion in Ukraine, sending oil and food prices around the world soaring.
Saudi Arabia is a major producer of the world’s oil, and that perhaps they can contribute in some way to help alleviate some of the pain that not only
Americans and those in Western countries are experiencing, but some developing nations as well. Those that are suffering the most, perhaps,
today and in the weeks and months to come are some of the poorest and most vulnerable citizens of the world. What do you say to that?
AL-HATHLOUL: What I say to that is simple.
I mean, MBS has himself started one of the worst wars in the world. Yemen is one of the worst humanitarian crises. And the U.S. considers him, Saudi
Arabia as an ally. But when we see — when they truly need them, they are not present. Russia — MBS was not clear with his position against Russia
when it invaded Ukraine. And, still, the Biden administration wants to meet with MBS for exactly this reason.
So, at the end of the day, we are empowering an ally that is not reliable, that is not clear in its positions when it is needed.
GOLODRYGA: If you can just give us some more detail, perhaps, on the stories, the people behind the human rights abuses that we see out of Saudi
Arabia.
We keep hearing this word human rights abuses, but many people don’t necessarily know who these people are. We talked about your sister. Saudi
Arabia obviously denies any abuse or mistreatment of these activists and dissidents who they have jailed.
But can you give us more examples of just some of their stories and some of the allegations that they have made against this kingdom and its rulers?
AL-HATHLOUL: Absolutely.
I will say, first of all, the global human rights situation in Saudi Arabia, there has been a lot of promises, but nothing concretely on the
ground. The crown prince, MBS, for instance, promised to stop executing minors. But just a couple of weeks ago, they confirmed the execution of a
little kid who was arrested when he was 14.
All of the other human rights promises, we have not seen anything on the ground concretely. When it comes to human rights defenders, what we see is
that they are tortured, disappeared in prisons. Abdulrahman al-Sadhan, whose sister is Saudi — she’s a Saudi U.S. citizen, her brother was
disappeared — has been disappeared for three years.
He was brutally tortured only because he tweeted. My sister Loujain was tortured by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s right-hand men. She was
sexually harassed by these men. So we cannot say that the country changed or that it is reforming when it is imprisoning the very people who are
trying to change the country.
GOLODRYGA: And it comes at a time when those who even acknowledge MBS’ role in the brutal murder of Jamal Khashoggi say that he is promising at
least some progress in terms of human rights and the treatment of women in the kingdom, obviously making it legal for women to drive, and some even
calling him a liberator of women and seeing that as progress going forward.
I interviewed former U.S. Ambassador to Israel Martin Indyk yesterday. And here’s what he said on that note. I want you to listen, and then we can
respond.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN INDYK, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: This Saudi leader has done more for the emancipation of Saudi women than any Saudi leader in history.
And it’s quite extraordinary — I was just in Riyadh a couple of weeks ago — to see women . Now 35 percent of them are in the work force — I mean,
the work force has 35 percent female participation.
And they’re out and about. They’re not wearing those abayas with just a slit for the eyes. They’re out in restaurants. They’re living what looks
like a much more normal life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: What do you say there? Is he making some valid points? Does life appear at least more normal in Saudi Arabia today than it did perhaps
a decade or two ago for women?
AL-HATHLOUL: Well, there has been changes, but the very foundation of the male guardianship system is still in place.
Women are still under the will of a male guardian. And the repression is still in place. So, a woman, if she has a good male guardian, she will be
able to live these freedoms. But if she doesn’t, if her father refuses everything, then he can veto all these new freedoms.
I mean, a woman can still get imprisoned based on a disobedience law. So if she travels and her male guardian considers that as being disobedient, she
can be put in jail in what they call a care home, because she’s against her father or her husband, and even sometimes her son.
So the very foundations of the male guardianship system is still in place. And if the government wanted to change things, they would dismantle the
male guardianship system. At the end of the day, the situation has changed in a facade way, but the repression is exactly the same as five years ago.
GOLODRYGA: You know, you’re an attorney living in exile, but still very much involved in the political structure there in Saudi Arabia working for
the opposition party.
Talk about that and some of the projects that you are currently working on .
AL-HATHLOUL: Absolutely.
So, what is important to know is that, since Mohammed bin Salman came to power, he dismantled every kind of initiative that was taking place in
Saudi Arabia to reform the country. He wants to be the only reformer. He imposes change, and civil society has been muzzled.
There is no one who can speak inside the country. They’re either imprisoned, they’re — or killed. And so everyone has left the country. And
so the diaspora are now gathered. We created the NAAS Party, and we want to be official counterpower to the Saudi government or to — at least to MBS
for now.
And the project is to be invited to the tables of negotiations when it comes to Saudi Arabia, because MBS is not Saudi Arabia, and the people
should also be part of the changes, of the progress, of the relations with the world.
So our party, NAAS, it has as the first aim to pave the way for democracy and inside the country.
GOLODRYGA: Lina al-Hathloul, thank you so much for joining us on this very important subject. We really appreciate your time. Thank you.
AL-HATHLOUL: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And we should note that we reached out to the Saudi governor went for their comment. They chose not to respond.
Well, we’re turning now to Washington and new information just revealed that former President Trump tried to contact a member of the White House
support staff who was talking to the January 6 Select Committee. Now, that’s raising questions about potential witness tampering.
January 6, 2021, we know, is a day for America’s history books, but so is the day before it. That’s when Reverend Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff won
Georgia’s two Senate seats, the first African-American and first Jewish senators from the state.
Senator Warnock is now reflecting on all that brought him to this moment in a new memoir called “A Way Out of No Way.”
And here is talking with Michel Martin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Bianna.
Senator Warnock, thank you so much for joining us.
WARNOCK: Great to be here with you.
MARTIN: You know, I can’t help but remember that your time in public office is so intimately entwined with the events of January 6.
I mean, on January 5, you became the first black senator from your home state. Obviously, it’s your first time in elective office. You’re only the
11th black person to serve in the U.S. Senate. And the very next day, what we could I think fairly describe as a lynch mob attacks the place where
you’re soon to serve.
And I’m just thinking that must have been this kind of welter of emotions. Can you just take us back to that? What was going through your mind in —
over those two days?
WARNOCK: Yes, you’re correct.
And I talked about this in my book, “A Way Out of No Way.”
On January 5, I was elected the first African-American senator from the great state of Georgia. But, also, Jon Ossoff, was elected the first Jewish
senator. So think about that. The state of Georgia, a former state of the Confederacy, elected in one fell swoop an African-American and a Jewish
senator. And I think, somewhere in glory, Martin Luther King Jr. and Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel were dancing, because, when they marched, they
marched alongside one another.
It gives voice, regardless of your politics, to the best of who we are, as a diverse American people. That happened on January 5. And then, on January
6, we saw the most violent assault on our Capitol since 1812, the War of 1812. Racist and antisemitic slogans and language trafficked through our
Capitol. Police officers were brutalized. People were killed.
And so I think, in a real sense, that’s where we are in this moment. We are somewhere as a nation between January 5 and January 6, between our hopes
and our fears, between the politics of division and that grand American creed e pluribus unum, out of many, one.
And our job right now, I think, is to push us closer towards our ideals, to hold at bay the demagogues who are trying to divide us, because people who
have no vision traffic in division, and to recommit ourselves to that Grand Democratic idea. It has been complicated. Our story has always been
complicated as an American people.
We — it’s not — it’s too easy to say January 6 is not who we are. The sad truth is that is a part of who we are. But we’re also January 5, when a kid
who grew up in public housing gets to serve in the United States Senate. And so I’m going to keep fighting for the best and the American promise.
MARTIN: Did it change anything about the way you approached or you thought about your job as a senator?
WARNOCK: Well, I have been in these fights for a long time. For 17 years now, I have served as senior pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta,
where Martin Luther King Jr. served and his father and his grandfather before that, all social justice activists.
So, for someone who’s been engaged in the fight against voter suppression and for voting rights, dealing with climate justice, dealing with the
problem of mass incarceration in our country, the land of the free is the incarceration capital of the world, I think I have a clear-eyed, tough-
minded view of just how difficult these fights are.
But, certainly, when we all watched what happened unfold on our television sets, we couldn’t help but recoil with horror. And it just reminded us of
just how much is at stake and how tough the fight really is, and that we have to keep doing the work, which is why, along with the other things that
I have been focused on, right now, I’m very much focused on lowering costs for Georgians, who are dealing with rising costs in the midst of global
inflation.
I also have been very focused on fighting for voting rights, because the assault that we saw on January 6, driven by the big lie that somehow the
election had been stolen, behind that is the premise that certain voices, certain votes ought not count. You don’t get to decide who the president
and who the senators will be.
That’s the ugly premise behind what happened on January 6. And, unfortunately, it metastasized in dozens of voter suppression laws passed
all across the United States. And so the fight continues.
MARTIN: Why did you want to be in elected office to begin with?
I mean, as I remembered from your memoir, as you recount in your memoir, you wanted to be a minister since you were a small child. In fact, you
started preaching when you were a child. One could argue you had one of the greatest pulpits in America, Ebenezer Baptist Church, where, as you pointed
out, that members of the King family preached for decades.
It’s a great honor, a national platform. So why did you want to be in elective office to begin with, specifically the Senate?
WARNOCK: Well, let me be very clear. I am not in love with politics. I’m in love with change.
And I decided to get involved in something as messy as politics with the hope that I could continue the fights that I have been engaged in for
year.s. I have been fighting, for example, for Medicaid expansion in Georgia from my pulpit, where I still preach, by the way, for years.
I went to the United States Capitol years ago, not as a senator, but as an activist. I got arrested in the Rotunda of the Capitol fighting for
Medicaid expansion, standing up against a bill in which they were giving a $2 trillion tax cut mostly to the 1 percent, while taking resources away
from the children’s health care program.
And now my office is down the hall from that Rotunda where I got arrested. So, in a real sense, my work in the Senate is a continuation of my lifelong
commitment to service, the work I have tried to do.
MARTIN: Georgia has been sort of ground zero for the last few years in sort of all of these major fights that have consumed the public.
It was, obviously, as I think has become manifestly clear with these hearings, a target of the former president’s efforts to intimidate election
officials into finding votes in his favor. The legislature in Georgia then went on to pass some of the first wave of bills that people like yourself
call voter suppression bills.
Why do you think that is? Why do you think that George has sort of become the nexus of so many of these incredible strains?
WARNOCK: Well, I think, in some ways, it’s a reflection not only of Georgia, but of the South.
I think an argument could be could be made that as goes to South, in a real sense, so goes the rest of the nation. But with Georgia in particular, it’s
not the first time we have been at the nexus of American history.
After all, Georgia’s greatest sons and certainly one of the greatest Americans, Martin Luther King Jr., hails from Georgia. And we saw in 2020 –
– who would have thought that Georgia would be the defining place where we would see who would have control over the Senate?
And I’m very proud of my state. It’s complicated. Our state is complicated, like America is. But I was born in Georgia, grew up in public housing on
the west side of Savannah, Georgia, one of 12 children in my family. I’m number 11, and the first college graduate.
When you look at me, you look not only at a United States senator, but someone who knows firsthand the importance of good public policy. I often
say I’m an alum of Head Start, a program that makes sure that preschool-age kids have access to the kind of learning and reading that they need.
I’m an alum of Upward Bound, another federal program that put me on a college campus as a high school student, so I could imagine myself there
and could get the kind of enrichment and tutoring and support that I needed, from which I was able then to go to Morehouse College on Pell
Grants and low-interest student loans.
And so this is the work that that’s the background that informs the work that I do every single day. And it has helped me and emboldened my fight,
as I say in the book, to make a way out of no way.
MARTIN: So — but what do you think it says that your opponent in this race is somebody who has been described even by his own campaign staff as
truth-challenged, who has — either by omission or commission who has not been honest about his academic record, his business dealings, the number of
children he has, but that someone with those obvious deficiencies as a candidate is apparently running neck and neck with you?
I mean, does that say something? Does that say something about our politics right now? Do you draw any conclusion from that?
WARNOCK: I think that the differences between me and my opponent are stark, and that the people of Georgia have a real choice to make about who
they think is ready to represent them in the United States Senate. I remain hopeful and deeply honored that I am representing the people of Georgia in
this defining moment in our American story.
There’s a reason why entitled, my memoir, “A Way Out of No Way”. It is a phrase, by the way, that comes deep from within the culture of the black
church. But we often say at our churches that God makes a way out of no way. It is a phrase borne of struggle, of pain and peril, and yet keeping
the faith. Hoping against hope. And it’s the honor of my life to translate that faith, not in a narrow sectarian and doctrinal way but in terms of
values, compassion, empathy, truth telling, love, justice.
That’s what informs my work every single day. And propels me in the fight to lower costs for Georgians. Across racial lines who are trying to figure
out how to get their kids through college, who are trying to figure out how to pay for prescription drugs, and who want to embrace the best of the
American promise. And I look forward to having that conversation.
MARTIN: How do you understand the fact that, at this juncture in our history, there are people who say they are animated by the same fate. The
same love of the same God and the same savior who say that it is taking them in the direction of wanting to outlaw abortion, perhaps reconsider
same-sex marriage. How do you understand that?
WARNOCK: It’s nothing new. There were questions on both sides of the struggle around abolition. There were Christians on both sides of the civil
rights movement. And, in this moment, I can only tell you that my faith is for me a bridge. It’s not a cudgel. It’s not a weapon that I used to
weaponize against others. And what informs me is, I think, the basic values that are in all the grand religious traditions who, in some way or another
say, love your neighbor as yourself.
And so, it is this basic commitment to humanity in all of its variation, in all of its expressions that guides the work that I do around reproductive
justice, around the dignity of members of the LGBTQ Plus community. It is the recognition that Dr. King said, that we are tied in the single garment
of destiny. That what happens to one directly affects all indirectly. And so, I think that’s the work and that’s the vision that inspires what I do
every single day.
MARTIN: So — but I guess what I’m trying to understand here is you’ve made the argument that you’re work in politics and government is your faith
in action, right? It is faith-made masses, OK. So, I don’t think anybody would argue that Joe Biden is a deeply moral man. I think that he has tried
to lift his faith. He’s been very open about hose he’s tried to live his faith throughout his, sort of, career in public life.
How do you understand the fact that, for example, his polling numbers are as low as they are when he’s managed to do things that his predecessor long
promised and didn’t accomplish? Do you see my point? I mean, you’re making the case around values, but if the public doesn’t understand or agree that
your values would be — or their lives are getting better, what do you do?
WARNOCK: Here’s what I refused to do, and that is to make the politics about me. And I really do mean that. Because I think that that danger is
inherent in politics because after all, as you point out, we do have to run for reelection. And do I want to serve six more years in the Senate?
Absolutely, because I’ve got some things I want to do for the people of Georgia.
But I think inherent in the requirement which is good of having to run for reelection. The danger is that a person who serves in politics will become
his or her own highest cause. That that becomes the thing. And I think we have a whole crop of politicians who are so focused on the next election
that they’re not thinking about the next generation. And as a consequence, even in the places where the American people are in agreement around, for
example, the need for universal background checks, as we were having that discussion. I’m glad we got something done after 19 kids were slaughtered
in a classroom. Around the need to have realistic and common-sense responses to the very real threat of climate change.
We can’t get movement on things too often that even the American people agree on because the politicians are focused on themselves.
And maybe it’s because I’ve spent my whole life in ministry. I’m not about to, all of a sudden, reverse and spend my life and my time focused on me.
I’m going to do this work.
MARTIN: So, before we let me go, talk to us a little bit about the book. You talked a lot about some of the disappointments that you’ve had along
the way, where you didn’t get a vote that you particularly wanted. You didn’t get a ministerial position that you particularly wanted where I — I
remember, you’re close were stolen out of a laundromat where you worked all summer to try to enhance your wardrobe, which I found really, you know,
moving, as having been a college kid on scholarship myself at one point. And, you know, remembering those days.
And you talk so beautifully about your parents, your dad in particular, who work for himself, you know, collecting salvage materials his entire life
because he wanted to work for himself and have some, sort of, have some dignity. And I just — you know, is there anything in particular that you
want people to draw from reading your story?
WARNOCK: Yes, as you point out, I often think about my dad of sacred memory. He was a preacher and a junk man. During the week, he picked up old
broken cars and loaded them up back on the back of a truck and took them to the local steel yard. And on Sunday morning, the man who lifted broken cars
all week, lifted broken people, convincing them of their value and of their possibility.
And I think something about sitting there listening to him preach, even as a kid, you think you’re not paying attention, but hearing him preach Sunday
after Sunday had an indelible impression on me. But, also, just the way in which he lived his life. He was a man born in 1917, I had an older father,
who once was asked to give up his seat to a young white teenager on a bus while wearing his soldier’s uniform during the World War II era. Somehow it
was — the skin he was wearing was more important than the uniform he was wearing. But my dad never gave into bitterness, hatred.
And he was a patriot. He passed on that faith to his children. And my siblings and I are the products of that. I have a mother who, thankfully is
still alive. She grew up in Waycross, Georgia. Picking somebody else’s cotton and tobacco. This last election season, she got to pick her youngest
son to be a United States Senator.
That’s the hope that I continue to carry with me. I’m inspired not only by them but by John Lewis who was my parishioner. He had no reason to think he
could win when he crossed that Edmund Pettus Bridge. But he did it because it was the right thing to do. And somehow that bridge became a bridge to
the future. We never know in that moment breaks, but it’s our job, it’s our responsibility, it’s our civic duty to keep pushing.
MARTIN: Senator Warnock, Reverend Warnock, thank you so much for joining us today.
WARNOCK: Great to be with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Such a thoughtful conversation. Well, Reverend Warnock is guided by the angels of history. But the devils of history still must be
reckoned with. Now, a new Israeli documentary unearthed previously unheard recordings of Adolf Eichmann, the Nazi leader who helped engineer the
logistics of the holocaust. The film is called, “The Devils Confession”. Correspondent Hadas Gold has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HADAS GOLD, CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): When Adolf Eichmann stood trial in 1961 in Jerusalem, he claimed he didn’t know the extent of the holocaust
and was just following orders.
ADOLF EICHMANN, NAZI LEADER (through translator): I did not see any murders, I did not see any torture. I did not know at all such a thing
there.
GOLD (voiceover): But a few years earlier in 1957, while hiding in Argentina, Eichmann spent hours boasting about his role, all recorded on
tapes meant for memoirs. Now, after decades under wraps, the Israeli documentary, “The Devil’s Confession: The Lost Eichmann Tapes” is allowing
the world to hear Eichmann in his own voice as actors reenact the recording sessions.
EICHMANN (through translator): It would defy my innermost beliefs to admit that we did something wrong. No, I have to tell you honestly had we killed
10.3 million Jews, I would say with satisfaction: ‘Good, we have destroyed an enemy’. Then we would have fulfilled our mission.
GOLD (voiceover): In 1960, Eichmann was apprehended by Israeli agents in a covert operation. Bringing him to Israel to stand trial, after which he was
ultimately executed. Prosecutors knew the tapes existed, they had transcripts, but Eichmann claimed his words were distorted. Director Yariv
Mozer spent months convincing the anonymous donor who had placed the tapes at the German archives to give him access.
YARIV MOZER, DIRECTOR, “THE DEVIL’S CONFESSION: THE LOST EICHMANN TAPES”: They are very afraid and very, to this day, of what would be the use of the
real voice of Adolf Eichmann. And eventually, they gave us the permission because they knew that it’s going to be handled in this — in a good
direction.
GOLD (voiceover): With so few survivors still alive to tell their stories, the filmmakers hope these tapes will make sure we never forget.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: And our thanks to Hadas Gold for that report. Well, we heard there from the director, Israeli filmmaker, Yariv Mozer. And as Hadas
reports, his documentary is called “The Devil’s Confession: The Lost Eichmann Tapes”. And he joins me now from Tel Aviv.
Yariv, thank you so much for joining us. I was just left speechless after watching that documentary. I couldn’t stop thinking about it. I’ve never
seen anything like it. And I’ve been a follower of Eichmann’s biography, and I’ve read many books on him, and even have seen movies reenacting his
abduction and capture. And yet we learned so much in this film, especially surrounding these secret tapes.
He was interviewed in 1957 by Willem Sassen. He was a Dutch journalist, a Nazi SS officer, and a Nazi sympathizer that found himself living in
Argentina as well. And he spent hours upon hours with Eichmann where Eichmann really told the side to his story that we didn’t see in his trial.
Talk about, first of all, how you got hold of these tapes.
MOZER: Well, as you told your viewers, I knew that the tapes existed because during the trial in 1961, prosecutor Gideon Hausner knew about the
tapes because Sassen, the interviewer, the journalist betrayed Adolf Eichmann and sold in article to “Life Magazine”. And in this article, it
was mentioned that there are tapes.
So, we knew about the tapes. And well, when I heard about it, I was shocked that such a thing existed. And I started researching and looking for the
trails of these tapes. Eventually, leading me to the German State Archive, in which I understood that the Eichmann family got it from Sassen, himself,
from the journalist himself, the Nazi journalist. He felt as if he needs to give it to them, and they sold it to an anonymous owner, who placed it for
preservation at the German State Archive.
And this is when I decided to start negotiating with them because for the last 20 years, they denied giving access to any filmmaker to use those
tapes. And — well, successfully I’ve succeeded in convincing them, together with MGM Studios and SYPO (ph), the Israeli studio, to make a film
and a tv series based on these tapes.
GOLODRYGA: And thank goodness you were able to do that because it shows a completely different side to the man that we saw at this trial in 1961 who
claimed that he was just a small cog in the Nazi operatize, sitting there in his office in Berlin. In these tapes, we hear him boasting, not only
about his role in the “Final Solution”. But the rationale behind it. Let’s just play a clip for our audience just to get a sense of his words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EICHMANN (through translator): I didn’t even care about the Jews that I deported to Auschwitz. I didn’t care if they were alive or already dead.
There was an order from the Reichsfuehrer that said Jews who were fit to work we sent to work. Jews who were unfit to work, had to be sent to the
Final solution. Period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Again, you mentioned that you had known about these tapes for the while. And that transcripts had been available throughout the trial as
well. But I’m curious, what was your initial reaction when you actually heard what was on paper? When you heard his voice?
MOZER: Well, the first thing that I looked for was all these signs on the tapes that made them authentic. You know, I knew that it happened in
Argentina, in the apartment, in the living room, they were sitting, drinking, smoking. You can hear the wife, you can hear the daughter of
Sassen singing in the background. All these signs proved that these tapes are authentic. That these are the real — this is the real voice of
Eichmann.
And this is why when I reenacted those scenes and used actors, I only, you know, told them to reenact it, but they had to move their lips according to
the real taped, to the real voice of Adolf Eichmann. So, the audience will hear for themselves how cruel, how brutal he speaks freely about what he
did.
GOLODRYGA: And how antisemitic he truly was. You talk about these details. It’s so powerful to see it reenacted there by these actors as we hear the
actual audiotape. Including a scene where a fly is swatted. Now, that may seem trivial, but to hear how those around him depicted that fly as having
Jewish nature. Let’s play that clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLEM SASSEN, DUTCH JOURNALIST (through translator): Belzec 600,000. Sobibor 250,000. Treblinka 700,000. Chelmno 300,000. Total 1,850,000.
Concerning the terrible Camp Auschwitz, the commander Rudolph Hoess stated the number of 2.5 million gassed Jews. So, is that correct?
EICHMANN (through translator): Where did you get these things?
SASSEN (through translator): From the Reichsfuehrer’s office.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there a copy?
SASSEN (through translator): Yes. Let’s get rid of this fly here.
EICHMANN (through translator): It’s a fly with a Jewish nature.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Again, just watching it again just gives me chills. What was some of the unknown that you had learned from watching and listening to
these tapes that you previously had not known? Not only bout Eichmann, but about those who were supporting and in hiding there, and the sympathizers.
There was a large community of former Nazi officers and sympathizers that were with them in broad daylight for some of these meetings in Buenos
Aires.
MOZER: You know, the thing is that I discovered and was really remarkable, and it defines also what is happening today, is that those Nazi followers
and sympathizers thought that the story of the holocaust, the scale of destruction of the Jewish community, was a Jewish propaganda. They were
Nazi, or neo-Nazi followers, who thought that these are all Jewish rumors. This is Jewish propaganda.
They didn’t believe the scale of the holocaust because, you know, the Final Solution was not known to all Nazi officers, like Adolf Eichmann. And
suddenly, Adolf Eichmann is sitting there among his colleagues and telling them, well, this is the truth. I’m not going to deny it like other Nazis
who faced trials after World War II. Like, Adolf Eichmann, himself, when he faced trial in Israel, he also denied it.
But during those meetings, he allowed himself, because he wanted the credit. He allowed himself to admit what he did, what they did. And I
think, in a way, these tapes, this show, “The Devils Confession” will stand against holocaust-deniers that are — still exist till this day. You know,
you mentioned January 6th as you saw people marching with shirts denying the holocaust. So, this still exists. You still have Nazi sympathizers
among us, which is horrible.
GOLODRYGA: And the number continues to grow. And the sad part is that the number of survivors of the holocaust continues to dwindle as we continue to
lose more and more. You, yourself, and so many Israelis are the grandson of a holocaust survivor. Clearly, we know who the villain was in this trial
and who the villains were, and the perpetrators of the holocaust.
But there were so many heroes in this trial as well that you highlight, whether it’s getting in Hausner and his legal support staff there. The
judicial system as a whole. And the holocaust survivors who their — offered testimony. You show some of that, too. And the powerful voices and
messages that they delivered around the world about these atrocities.
MOZER: Yes, and I was fortunate enough to still interview two among of those holocaust survivors who testified in the trial. Two of them were
alive and gave me an interview. One of them died, unfortunately, during the process of filming. But it just — an indication that we’re losing the
first generation of survivors who were witnesses to what happened there. And this is our responsibility. As you said, I’m a grandson of holocaust
survivors, who died already, but I see it as my responsibility to keep this memory alive.
And just to tell you that I saw President Biden on his visit to Israel. And I saw yesterday his visit to the holocaust museum, Yad Vashem.
GOLODRYGA: Yad Vashem, yes.
MOZER: And the moment he approached those two holocaust survivors and talked with them was a very emotional moment and moving moment for me. I
had tears in my eyes. It is still significant for us to continue and remember what happened there.
GOLODRYGA: It was a beautiful moment to see President Biden do that. And you saw the survivors attempt to stand up and he quickly told them, no, no,
no. And bent down to them. It was a powerful sincere moment from the President.
You also cover the controversies and twists throughout this trial as well. Gideon Hausner was desperate to get hold of these tapes. But the prime
minister, at the time, David Ben-Gurion, was not in that same position. He was trying to cover some of the, I guess, delicate political situations
that he himself was, as a leader of the country, that was moving forward and trying to re-establish relationships with West Germany. And in the
pursuit of nuclear defense, meaning that they had to hide some of the not- so-pleasant history there between working with former Nazis. Talk about that.
MOZER: So, we need to understand that West Germany was filled with ex- Nazis, still in high positions, still in power. And David Ben-Gurion was thinking about the young State of Israel that was just established in 1948.
And he was looking, in his vision, to protect the State of Israel and to build a security. And therefore, he wanted the nuclear plant. And he saw
the money, the opportunity to get the money from West Germany. And therefore, he knew that he needs to pay the price.
It’s probably hard for us to hear those things. But when I placed myself in Ben-Gurion’s shoes, well, he had to take some hard decisions while thinking
about the future of the State of Israel. And I think he did wisely. You know, one of the decisions he took was to stop looking for Nazis after this
trial and not to continue with these trials because this was part of the agreement, the very secret agreement with West Germany. And I think he did
wisely. I know, well, this is part of the security of Israel to this day.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, He clearly had a lot to juggle with. And he even told Gideon Hausner to refer to Germany but refer to Nazi Germany when he was
speaking during the trial there. Finally, can you just tell us where we can watch, where viewers can watch this important documentary? How they can
find it.
MOZER: So, as I said, MGM Studios is distributing the show. It’s a three- part series and a film. And together with the Israeli Studio, SYPO, and Con 11, they’re looking for the perfect buyer in the States. And — well, I
just want to suggest maybe CNN will be the one purchasing the show. Maybe you can do something to help. But I’m sure it will get the proper home in
the U.S. for people — for a lot of people to see.
GOLODRYGA: Listen, whatever I can do, it is a fantastic piece of work. I was blown away. And as we, Eichmann was convicted on 15 counts and was
sentenced to death by hanging in 1962. But this movie just leaves you feeling with a question of what would’ve been if those tapes were available
and heard around the world at that time as well. Thank you for joining us, Yariv Mozer. It is a wonderful, wonderful and very important documentary. I
appreciate it.
MOZER: Thank you, Bianna. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much.
GOLODRYGA: And finally, we’ve covered some pretty difficult issues today. So, we thought that we would leave you with just a little bit of hope and
wisdom, courtesy of Mary Pipher. The psychologist and bestselling author has written a book called, “A Life in Light: Meditations on Impermanence”.
And she told me how she minds lessons from her own difficult experiences to discover joy amid despair.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY PIPHER, AUTHOR, “A LIFE IN LIGHT”: We are in a very dark time in America. Most of us are in a fairly dark place, in a fairly dark place. Not
so much in our own personal day-to-day lives. But when we expand beyond that to the bigger picture. And the antidotes for the despair, we feel
oftentimes our joy and love and even transcendent experience. And all of those things are possible with attitudes, with energy, with attention.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Mary Pipher, guiding us toward the light. We all needed that today.
And in our full conversation, she tells me how she gained wisdom by washing dishes with a wonderful person. You can see that part of the interview
tomorrow. And that is it for now. Remember, you can always catch us online, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, plus on our podcast. Thank you so much
for watching and goodbye from New York.