Boy Scout Sexual Abuse Survivor Tells His Story

HARI SREENIVASAN, HOST: Christiane, thanks. Irene Taylor, Stuart Lord, Thank you both for joining us. First, Irene, to you. Why do this film about scouting? I mean, how integral has scouting been in American life and more specifically your family?

IRENE TAYLOR, DIRECTOR, “LEAVE NO TRACE”: I think scouting is part of our American fabric. I mean, there’s a whole mythology around what a good scout is. It’s practically used to describe–it’s synonymous with integrity. I have three sons. Two of them were Scouts and it was a big part of my family. We would go on outings together and I didn’t know it at the time I lived here in Oregon, but it turned out that our council here in my local area of Portland, Oregon had a strong history–a dark history that I wasn’t aware of.

SREENIVASAN: Stuart Lord, I want to ask you: Why did you join scouting and what happened to you?

STUART LORD, FORMER BOY SCOUT: Well, I joined scouting as well, I was 11 years old. I joined when they recruited boys at my elementary school. I joined because I wanted to be outdoors. I grew up in New Rochelle in New York and scouting allowed me an opportunity to participate, to really develop as a leader being a patrol leader and leading other other boys and was a way for me to be active as a young person. So I benefited a lot from scouting and also was harmed by scouting. And beginning around 11 years old until I was 18, I was abused–sexually abused–by my assistant scout master and other people he introduced me to.

SREENIVASAN: I myself am a boy scout–or was a boy scout, an Eagle scout. And the first point of the scout law is, “A scout is trustworthy.” How much did trust have to play with how these men were able to take advantage of you?

LORD: Yes. So scout is trustworthy and other things that developed character. And so I trusted my scout master. My scout master met my mom and realized that I didn’t have a father and asked my mom if he could sort of you know, become that surrogate father. He used to call himself my dad sometimes. And so there was when he introduced himself to my mom, my mom said, yeah, I’d love for you to pay attention to Stuart. And that paying attention to resulted in him taking advantage of me and grooming me. And I trusted him. And he also threatened me, but I still trusted him. Because that’s the way I learned to trust adults and authority. And he was another adult that I trusted.

SREENIVASAN: Irene, this was not limited to a specific troop or a council or a city. Your documentary goes and looks at the documents and finds that this happened all over the United States. How do we know of exactly how many children were taken advantage of who kept the records?

TAYLOR: The Boy Scouts kept the records. They called them internally “the perversion files.” And I think that tells you a lot right there. More formally, they were called the ineligible volunteer files. The concept behind them was that they would keep record of men who were not suitable to be scout leaders. We know that these records go back at least to the 1930s. We suspect they went back earlier than that. But the boy Scouts themselves acknowledged in the early 1930s that they had these files. They called them their “red files” at the time. And we also know that when we started making the film shortly after they announced their bankruptcy, a couple of years back, we know that the lawyers involved at the time thought there would be maybe 7,000, 10,000, maybe 12,000 men or boys who and girls who would come forward with allegations of abuse as part of the bankruptcy case. Well, lo and behold, eight months later, that number was 82,000. So that’s 82,000 men, boys and girls who say that they were abused at the hands of someone within the scouting organization. Now, does that mean that there are more out there? It doesn’t take a huge imagination to imagine that there are. It’s very hard for men. It’s very hard for anyone who’s been sexually traumatized to come forward and talk about it, especially when there’s the pressure of a deadline. And there was a legal deadline for this bankruptcy by which you had to file your case.

SREENIVASAN: I wanna play clip here on how widespread the abuse was.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARGARET MALARKEY: What we saw was troop leaders being found to have abused children at one troop. And then, you know, here they are popping up a year later at another troop in a different state. And again and again, so it was just really clear physical evidence that they had known for decades and decades that these men were assaulting these boys on this one level, they did a phenomenal job of tracking them. And then on the other hand, completely dropped the ball on making sure that they couldn’t and wouldn’t abuse other children in the program. Like what the hell else would those files be for?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SREENIVASAN: Stuart, when you see that and you realize this was an organization that was working almost to protect the people that hurt children, they were supposed to protect you.

LORD: Yes. It saddens me to know that the boy Scouts were so concerned at protecting leaders and not protecting young men and young boys who were growing and trusted the scouting. And it’s an American tragedy, what happened. And to think back as a young person growing up that no one had that conversation with me as a young person about safety and about right and wrong when it comes to being sexually abused by by, by, by, by–excuse me–by some of the scout masters.

SREENIVASAN: I wanna read part of a statement from the boy Scouts of America. It says “While any instance of abuse is one too many, the overwhelming majority of claims filed in the national organization’s chapter 11 case relate to allegations of abuse that occurred before our modern youth protection policies were implemented more than three decades ago. That does not in any way absolve us of what happened in the past, but I hope it demonstrates that we take youth protection extremely seriously.” And Irene, I, I wanna follow up with that, of that statement, the files that came up in the lawsuit, that’s not all of them. And your documentary mentions that there were a large number of claims that came after the Scouts put these youth protection policies in place.

TAYLOR: That’s right. And I, I think that the boy Scouts have missed a number of opportunities to strengthen the barriers for these men to get into the organization. And they are really trying to look forward. The organization is trying to look forward. This is what I have observed. But, you know, those 82,000 men and boys and girls, they have trouble looking forward because they keep looking back. This is the reality of sexual trauma. And I think that there is a lot of reckoning that needs to take place with the organization. And one of the things that I hope with this film that we can do is just have people talk about it.

SREENIVASAN: I wanna play a clip of two young men–children–that you were able to profile for this film.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAROLYN YOXALL: He wanted to be a police officer. And he was told that going through the Scouts and everything would be the best way to do it. So that was his goal.

MATTHEW YOXALL: She heard stories from me telling her about what it was like when I was a Scout. [crosstalk] I had a blast and I thrived in it.

CAROLYN: And they let Nathan join in every now and then. [Lower Third] Nathan Yoxall

MATTHEW: Nathan was their mascot till he was old enough to join.

CAROLYN: Kris had been going through such a hard time. And Doug kept trying to, “Kris can stay with me.”

We thought that was normal. How are we supposed to know? We didn’t know. And we have a child molester telling us what the rules are, which, according to him, there are none.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SREENIVASAN: When those parents find out what happened to that boy, there’s a scene where it was literally the first time they’re hearing about it because the young man has never spoken about it to them. And I think that that’s probably the case for lots of victims.

TAYLOR: My way into this film was, I met a social worker whose full-time job–Monday through Friday, eight hours a day–was to interview survivors of sexual abuse at the hands of a scout master. Full-time job. And she told me that most of the men she spoke with were telling someone for the first time. She said people in their eighties and even in their nineties were calling her about abuse that occurred in the 1940s. Just last week, my producing partner, Nigel Jaquis, the investigative reporter who worked on the film with me. We got an email from a gentleman who identified himself, told us he was 84 years old and said that he was abused in the 1950s by his scout master. And that so many of the stories in our film, which had children as young as 14 and a man as old as 74, he said that their stories resonated exactly with his own experience. And he said that at that time, in the 1950s, he was told as a young boy that if he wanted to get ahead in the boy Scouts, he would follow his scout master’s wish.

SREENIVASAN: Stuart, how did this affect you in all the years between when you suffered at the hands of a pedophile and until you finally talked about it?

LORD: Well, growing up as a young person, I grew up having to be silent. I grew up having to live two lives. I didn’t feel safe to tell anyone. When I got the courage to tell someone–my mother, my foster mother–she died. And so I had to keep this burden inside of me. It made me angry. I felt alone. I was afraid of the dark. I was afraid of my house that I grew up in until I went away to college. And so, you know I grew up angry. I grew up feeling that I was in the world alone sometimes. And at the same time I had a community from my church. And so I was in and out of both worlds. Two worlds. Living two lives. And you know, there were moments that I thought I was dying. Did I think about suicide? Of course I thought about suicide.But because I wanted to honor my foster mother and what she had done for me, I had to build my life and live a life away from my abusers. And so I realized that I needed to get help. I needed to get some counseling. I needed to avail myself to navigate and live one life. And so speaking out and, and, and getting counseling and participating in eight hours sessions, and I’m still in counseling. And I, I may come across as if I’m together, but I am a heart warrior. Someone who has been through a war of internal strife and knowing that true happiness comes from helping others is, is one of my mantras that helps me navigate my abuse and being able to be available for others.

SREENIVASAN: Stuart, do you ever wonder about how your life would be if this had not happened to you?

LORD: Yeah. I’ve often thought about that little Stuart inside of me. That little boy who was 11, 12, 13. Had it not happened to that person, how much freer, you know. I probably would’ve danced much more freer. I would’ve run not having to look back and I would have you know. I often talk to that person. And I tell myself, “Stuart, it wasn’t your fault. And you’re not alone.” And so the little boy who was abused–if he wasn’t abused, he would’ve had a childhood. And my childhood was stolen from me. And so, yeah.

SREENIVASAN: Irene, where are the Boy Scouts now, when it comes to an, as an organization financially membership wise?

TAYLOR: Well, just in the last six months–and in the last month–there have been numerous articles about councils around the country who are starting to sell off land. What the Scouts are going to need to do is liquidate their assets to pay their debts effectively. The bankruptcy is still in process. So I think we also know their membership has been steadily declining since the 1970s. And it’s at an all time low now, so I think they are cleaning house, so to speak. But it’s really unknown at this point what decisions they’re gonna make. Still thousands of perversion files have not been released. And the survivors who are part of this 82,000 have voted, and the majority of them do want the Scouts to release those files. And the Scouts have not agreed to do that. The scouting organization has not allowed to–has not been willing to do that. And I think that would be a very powerful message for them to demonstrate to America and to survivors that if they release those files, that is their way of looking back and acknowledging. We still have more looking back to do. Because the men who have abusers who are in those files–those files will be very meaningful on their own journey towards healing. And also, remember, some of these perpetrators–they’re out there right now, right now. So we can also stop those perpetrators from accessing more boys and girls now.

SREENIVASAN: Stuart, I’ve heard you say that, you know, you chose to speak out, not in an effort to destroy scouting that you have in some ways reached a level of forgiveness. But I want, I wonder, what do you say to the survivors of sexual abuse who have not come forward, who are still struggling, who might be in the same place you were 15, 20 years ago.

LORD: So I say to the survivors that if you’ve been threatened, then you can still come forward because there are people who will believe you, and that you’re not alone. There’s one in six boys who have experienced child sexual abuse before the age of 18. And to reach out for help, to seek counseling, to be able, just to be able to say, first of all, that I’ve been abused and decide how much of the story you’re going to tell. I wish that every boy scout and, and every young person and parent would watch this film to have that discussion, to realize that breaking the silence can feel as worse than the abuse itself, but that take your small steps seek therapy, seek counseling, and begin this long journey with a trusted friend.

SREENIVASAN: Stuart Lord and Irene Taylor. The film is called leave. No trace it’s available on Hulu now. Thank you both so much for your time.

TAYLOR: Thank you.

LORD: Thank you.