Russian Propagandists Are Starting to See the Truth

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, HOST: We now turn to the view from Ukraine with our next guest. Iuliia Mendel was president Zelenskyy’s press secretary before Russia’s invasion. And in a new book, “The Fight of Our Lives”, she details HER experience in government and life under Russian occupation. She joins Walter Isaacson to discuss the recent advances, and her time with Zelenskyy.

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WALTER ISAACSON, HOST: Iuliia Mendel, welcome to the show.

IULIIA MENDEL, AUTHOR, “THE FIGHT OF OUR LIVES”: Walter, it’s my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

ISAACSON: You have a great new book out. But let me start with the news which is more than 1,100 square miles of territory have been recaptured by the Ukrainians from the Russians. Can you give us the latest on what that feels like in Ukraine now?

MENDEL: Well, Ukrainians are really celebrating the recent developments. And we are very proud of our Ukrainian army and volunteers, and all those people who devoted their lives to help Ukrainian army regain our Ukrainian territories. From what I’ve heard, over 300 of settlements have been returned back to Ukraine. And it’s amazing how Ukrainians are actually resuming their life there. The biggest postal services already are returning to the settlements that just have been recaptured and are fully destroyed. Ukrainians are making connection, trying already some, you know, rebuild. People are coming back. We really want to return our back — our lives back that Russia has so cruelly taken away from us on February 24th.

ISAACSON: One of the reasons that offensive succeeded is it was sort of a fake, it seems. As if they were going to go to the southern region of Kherson, which is where you’re from. And there’s still 500,000 people there, including people, who, I’m sure, you know and your relatives, who are under Russian occupation there. Tell me what’s happening in that region.

MENDEL: Well, to be frank, I’m talking a lot to people who are under Russian occupation. And believe me it’s always causing a lot of emotions and tears because people just are praying there for Ukrainian army to return. In fact, you are right. I’m from that region. And I spent my childhood in one of the villages, that is named Oleksandrivka. And I remember myself being a small girl, going to the local library, reading the books, eating cherries, apricots, you know. And now, there is no this village anymore at all, in general. My grandmother, she is a survivor. And she actually spent a lot of time under Russian shelling. She was sitting in the basement, having a wounded leg, and just hearing all this shelling, destroying her home, destroying her garden. She was lucky to come to Kyiv. We’re taking care of her. But the situation there is very sorrowful. I know that Ukrainian authorities are not giving up. And Kherson region had five settlements liberated from Russians. And furthermore, they have delayed the fake referenda for the second time already. And this is already a big sign that they understand that Ukrainian army is not going to stop. But also, some Russian journalists go to online social media and they say, why on Earth we need Kherson? People don’t support us here. Which is a great sign because these are Russian propagandist, and they already start seeing the truth.

ISAACSON: You know, they’re right. There’s no support, whatsoever, now for Russia in region of Kherson.

MENDEL: It is — no, there is no support. Of course, there are some — you know, everywhere, few people maybe who — maybe were believing of this Russian propaganda. But the difficulty with the Kherson region was that this was the only region that borders Crimea, the peninsula that Russia annexed back in 2014. And this means that Russians are getting there more and more, you know, absolutely openly through the Creamian bridge from Russia. And that’s why there are so many of them there. That it was very difficult for the Ukrainian army at the very beginning to stand for that land. So, ordinary Ukrainians, they are free too well standing against Russian occupation in different ways. They were protesting a lot. And I have friends protesting there a lot and there are a lot of partisans. And they are doing big things there, starting from blowing the cars on those who collaborate with Russia or of Russian leaders. And even as spreading the Ukrainian flag everywhere on this city. And the more this Ukrainian flag is spread, you know, just put on the fences or — you know, put on their hoses and where — the more Russians are disturbed because they do not know how many partisans are there in Kherson.

ISAACSON: You know, reading your wonderful book about your time as press secretary to President Zelenskyy, you talked, too, about the information wars at times. And I think there’s one going on right now. In fact, in the past week we’ve seen much more of an information battlefield coming from the Ukrainians. Trying to influence Russian opinion. Can you tell me about that?

MENDEL: Well, thank you a lot for this. I think that the defeat of the Russian army is the biggest influence for the Russian people. Because, of course, Russian television propaganda will lie a lot. They are to be sad. And their biggest propagandist, they are super rich tycoons. But at the same time, you cannot hide the truth if mothers and wives and daughters get letters from their beloved ones who disappear or who are brought dead to Russia. And right now, over 53,000 of Russian servicemen who are eliminated, this is a term by ministry of Ukrainian — the Ukrainian minister defense. So, in fact it’s very hard to not notice went over 53,000 of people disappear or die, you know. Get back wounded, with very severe wounds. And this is — the only thing that happens with Russia is that they understand only strength and power. And this is the way to convince the Russian people that this war must be finished. And convinced the Russian leadership that they need to get out of our country.

ISAACSON: You were born in the late 1980s, right before the collapse of the Soviet Union. So, you don’t even remember Soviet occupation of Ukraine. How does that make you different from your parents and grandparents’ generation?

MENDEL: That’s a good question. In fact, the Soviet Union did not collapse just with the signed documents. The atmosphere of Soviet Union stayed in the regions for some time. It was just the change of mindset, the change of the system. More fresh air from the west that was coming in in the borders that had been closed for enormous time. That actually changed the Soviet Union into a real democratic Ukraine. But I remember the ’90s, they were very dark. They were very difficult for us. And my child was — childhood was full of fear for the future, was full of limitations. And I don’t think I would ever have this type of life and career if Ukraine, for some big unfortunate, could stay the part of the Soviet Union, or could, for some reason, stay with Russia. I think my fate would be, you know, just to become either propagandist or their opposition to the authority that would pursue me. And, you know, with whom I would need to fight. But in fact, you know, I became the press secretary to the president of Ukraine in open way, winning the contest around 4,000 of applicants. And this is what democracy means. And I’m very proud that Ukraine is the biggest territory of freedom and the biggest territory of democracy in the post-Soviet region.

ISAACSON: You just talked about becoming the press secretary to President Zelenskyy. And reading it in the book, it’s sort of an amazing thing. It was an open contest. How in the world you are in your early 30s then, a woman — you didn’t know President Zelenskyy. It was a somewhat corrupt society back then. What was this — how did this happen that you became press secretary?

MENDEL: Well, imagine President Zelenskyy comes to power. And everybody had been watching him on TV screens in comedy for, like, 20 years. Like, he became as popular as a rock star. And it seemed that, like, everyone wanted to work for him. And he becomes the first president to open this transparent competition. So, we have like around 4,000 of applications. I learned this number later. But I decided just, you know, to give it a chance. As soon as I sent my CV, I learned there are already 3,000. I’m like, OK. Let’s forget about this. But they hired an I — HR companies and I passed through to the level where I had interviewed with Volodymyr Zelenskyy himself. So, what they did, they tried to pretend that he and his team are media sharks. Testing me as a press secretary. And there was one question that I think made Zelenskyy make a decision to hire me. He asked about my motivation. So, I said if he, as a man, of a poor background from some province from Ukraine can become a president of the country in a democratic way. And me, as a girl, from also the same poor background, but from different region of Ukraine, can openly become his press secretary, what is it if not a Ukrainian dream where everyone can achieve whatever they want? I think this was the answer that showed him that we shared the same vision of the country. And that’s how I was hired.

ISAACSON: You were press secretary during the every infamous phone calls and conversations with Donald Trump and President Zelenskyy. In which Donald Trump was pushing Ukraine to do an investigation of Hunter Biden and was threatening to hold up aid to Ukraine unless it was done. And hold up, like, visit to the White House unless it was done. Tell me about hearing about that and hearing that the aid may have been frozen. What did you think? what did you do?

MENDEL: So, let me be clear here. I was not present at the call itself. But I was taking all the media inquiries. And I was present at the negotiations with Donald Trump. And of course, I saw all the reactions of President Zelenskyy and the team which I, somehow, touched in my book. Everyone in the world now observes that humans of the Ukrainian army. We have great people who stand for democracy and freedom. But at the same time, we wouldn’t be able to do this if we don’t have the financing, the support from our partners. If we don’t have weapon that we train in. Ukrainian army was in super poor condition back in 2013 because of very corrupt Russian President Yanukovych. So, it could weaken our army and who knows what the results could be. Maybe Putin could attack us earlier. Maybe Ukrainian army would not be able to stand against this. Maybe Ukraine wouldn’t be able to be independent now. And the decision to hold on the so crucial military aid for Ukraine could benefit only one person in the world, and that was Vladimir Putin. That’s why it was threatening in many ways and I’m sure that Ukraine actually passed that period very bravely and very well in diplomatic ways. So, that we did not lose the support of Republicans and Democrats, which was very, very crucial for Ukrainian army and for Ukrainian people.

ISAACSON: We just said that withholding that aid which Donald Trump did for a while and threatening to withhold it as he did could only help one person, which is Vladimir Putin. Was that the feeling of those of you in the Zelenskyy administration that this was a mortal threat of what Donald Trump was trying to do in order to get this investigation of the Biden family?

MENDEL: At that moment there were so many things, only one plate. Let me say that at that moment, Volodymyr Zelenskyy (INAUDIBLE) politics achieved first results in negotiations with Putin. But he knew that Ukrainian army needed to stay. To stand there because Putin is very unpredicted and he is very aggressive. So, in fact, we were very likely that this aid was provided back and we had this $400 million. When we today, we look at this army, at Ukrainian army that makes so much sense. We understand this is the support of our partners in terms of training our soldiers. Of providing a military support equipment. Helping them to behave correctly on the battlefield. To understand the thinking of the enemy. So, all of the support was going there. And because of all of this years of this support, Ukrainian army can do all this as successes today. So, I cannot say that people were strictly talking about this with my words, but definitely this was in the air.

ISAACSON: Now, President Biden, just this past week, has announced I think, $2.8 billion more. What do you think of the Biden administration’s response, Europe’s response, should they be doing more or this is something that’s very heartening to you?

MENDEL: This is a very important question for the reason that United States and Ukraine would share the same values. And I’m sure that American people understand what freedom is better than anyone in the world. This is the value for your people as much as for Ukrainians. And we are very grateful for the support, not only of the government and the president who stands strong for Ukraine but also for all the Americans who are doing so many amazing things. And for American media who stand there to fight on information space, right? At the same time, what we need to understand is that we cannot stop. Though I know there is fatigue. I know that the winter is coming and Russia blackmails the world with energy prices. Russia weaponizes everything, all the resources that it has to fight the world. Russia tried to stop the grain out, for instance, so many people can get hungry and can die from hunger, right? But we cannot stop of continuing this fight to get rid of Russia for Ukraine. For the reason, if we show some kind of weakness or if we stop, Russia will return back and show all its aggression. So, that we don’t lose the results that we achieve now, we need to continue. We are heavily relying on the United States about weaponry supplies and about collaboration in military and intelligence sphere as much as its continuing right now.

ISAACSON: Do you think that if the Ukrainian military is able to push the Russians back all the way to the line before February, before the most recent invasion, do you think there could be a ceasefire in place for a while or do you think that would be too much of a sign of weakness?

MENDEL: Well, I was talking to different people and the plans, believe me, change all the time. Because the Ukrainian authorities, officials, and military are flexible because they want to be as effective as possible. At the same time, I understand that Ukrainian authorities are pretty realistic with the necessity of ceasefire. But it must be done in an appropriate moment. We cannot just give up, like, 15, 20 percent of our land. Forgive and forget all the people who died there because thousands and thousands of Ukrainians died with absolutely horrible death in horrible conditions. So, we need to think with all the global community how to hold Russia accountable because accountability is the only way to move forward. And in this way, we should move towards the peace deal. But on the conditions of civilized countries and the conditions of Ukraine. We cannot allow Russia do whatever it wants and just forget it, you know, to move forward. So, I believe that Ukraine will do everything right now to return the territories that were lost after February 24. But I also believe that the next step for Ukraine, the homework that Ukraine will need to do will be to align the standards with NATO as much as possible, to train as much as possible, to stay as strong as possible so that Russia do not come back in two or three or five years.

ISAACSON: Iuliia Mendel, thank you so much for joining us.

MENDEL: It’s my pleasure, Walter. Thank you for having me.