From 2019, David McCullough on Final Book “Pioneers”

BIANNA GOLODRYGA: And now, we member David McCullough, who died at the age of 89. A historian, author, and narrator. He was known as the voice of American history by his colleagues. Walter Isaacson sat down with him in 2019 to discuss his last major work, “The Pioneers”, and started of the conversation by reading the first line about the crucial role of a Massachusetts reverend.

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WALTER ISAACSON, HOST: I’m going to read the opening sentence of this book, “The Pioneers” because it’s amazing to me. It’s never before, as he knew, had any of his countrymen set off to accomplish anything like would he agree to undertake. A mission that should he succeed would change the course of history. I think it’s impossible not to keep reading. What was that mission?

DAVID MCCULLOUGH, HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR, “THE PIONEERS”: To create in the – – what was called the northwest territory, which was that territory ceded to us by the British after the end of the revolution which would eventually include five States, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin. An area that was all still wilderness and would double the size of our country. The Ohio Company which was called — which was hatched in the old bunch of grave taverns in Boston by veterans of the revolution was to create a new America, in effect out there which would be based on four fundamental precepts, four fundamental objectives. One, that there would be complete freedom of religion. Two, that the native peoples living there would be treated with respect and faith in them. Three, that there would be public education for everybody, starting at grade school all the way through college. No State had anything remotely close to that. And, of course, it turned out to be the birthplace of all our state universities. And fourth, and most important of all, most radical of all, there would be no slavery. This man who’s starting off was determined that the idea of all men are created equal would not just be words on paper, but would be a fact, a part of American life. That there would be no slavery in that huge empire, as it were.

ISAACSON: This was Manasseh Cutler.

MCCULLOUGH: Manasseh Cutler who was a classic, like, your Ben Franklin. 18th-century polymath who was a doctor of law, a doctor of divinity, and a doctor of ministry, all three at once. And probably because he was a minister, and probably because he was there for completely trusted in him, and rightly so, he succeeded. He got it through, through Congress. And as a consequence, slavery would not be permitted in this new empire. Up until a point when after years later, when Jefferson became president, it was a big movement to end that rule and to admit slaves.

ISAACSON: Getting to the slavery thing, Jefferson is an interesting figure here because he’s in favor at first in the northwest ordinance of keeping slavery out. And he wrote that sentence. You know, we hold these truths to be self-evident. But he backslides.

MCCULLOUGH: Yes, he did. He said it wouldn’t be good for his political standing back home if he voted for it. Also, he was leaving to become our representative, our ambassador to France. So, he had that much on his mind. He was going out leaving the stage, as it were.

ISAACSON: How do we judge, from today, these people of the past? Like a Jefferson, who is a larger-than-life character in the formation of our values and yet has this thing where it’s just so, you know, bad in our current light that he keeps arguing for slavery?

MCCULLOUGH: History is human. You know that as well as I do. It’s about people. And many of the great figures of history, our history, history of civilization have been often quite imperfect. And — but that doesn’t mean that what they accomplished wasn’t important or valuable or admirable. Jefferson was a brilliant architect. If he had been nothing but an architect, he would be someone we should know about. But my feeling strongly now, and I think this is one of the motivations that drove me in this — writing this book, is that we have heroes all through our history who have never been given the light that they deserve. Never been brought on stage or front and center stage. These are all people — the people that figure in my new book are people you’ve never heard of.

ISAACSON: This is in Marietta?

MCCULLOUGH: Marietta, Ohio. Marietta, Ohio was the first legal settlement in all the northwest territory. The white men and women in that territory were either hunters or trappers or squatters. They’re there legally. And they’re there because they’re being compensated as veterans for what and how they had been paid for their service in the — to the country which was — in what was called script, and it was virtually worthless. 10 cents on the dollar. So, they were saying, here is this land which you can have, buy for a very inexpensive price. Where the topsoil is five feet deep. Where there’s every kind of tree from which you can make boats or anything else you want to build or make. And then we’re going to build boats because it was on the Ohio River, and they were going to take it down the Ohio to the Mississippi, down the Mississippi to New Orleans, and out to sea. And nobody had had the imagination to realize this was going to be possible. The river isn’t the heart of the story. When they decide to create this new settlement at a juncture of the Ohio in Muskingum, which is about 90 miles downstream on the Ohio from Pittsburgh, where the Ohio begins, and a beautiful location and it still is. Absolutely stunning. One of the most beautiful locations in our whole country. They named it for Marie Antoinette, Marietta, because they felt that she, as much as Ben Franklin, maybe more, they felt, had brought France in to help us win the war. And, of course, we wouldn’t have won the war without their– the help of the French. Not just with money but with military force. And — so it’s a tribute to France. And then they set about to create this ideal community, and they did.

ISAACSON: Once Manasseh Cutler who helped get the ordinance passed —

MCCULLOUGH: Right.

ISAACSON: — his son, who helped fund Marietta.

MCCULLOUGH: Yes.

ISAACSON: These are, sort of, the unsung heroes that you’re write —

MCCULLOUGH: Right, Rufus Putnam.

ISAACSON: — you know, writing about. Were they doing it mainly as a commercial enterprise?

MCCULLOUGH: No.

ISAACSON: Or mainly —

MCCULLOUGH: Absolutely not.

ISAACSON: — as an errand into the wilderness?

MCCULLOUGH: No, they were not doing this to get rich or to get famous or to have a lot of possessions. They were doing it to create what they hoped would be an ideal community. And to be sure, essentially in New England community, and essentially New England which was based on the puritan traditions.

ISAACSON: One of the core values of the northwest ordinance and this group, besides eliminating slavery, was to live in peace and harmony with the native Americans —

MCCULLOUGH: Yes.

ISAACSON: — and the Indians there.

MCCULLOUGH: Yes.

ISAACSON: They fail at that.

MCCULLOUGH: Well, they themselves did not fail at that. But the white settlers that priest came after them. And to some extent, some of their own people, to be sure, failed. But Rufus Putnam, who was the leader, he was really the man who made it happen. He starts through the principle, as best as he possibly could. When this warfare began in 1891, there was never any attack on Marietta because of the respect that the native tribes had for Rufus Putnam and his integrity.

ISAACSON: Well, to some extent, in the book, you know, you called these people the settlers. But of course, it wasn’t a real wilderness that had not been settled.

MCCULLOUGH: Right.

ISAACSON: There was a flourishing civilization back 2,000 years, really, right? When you talk about the mounds of the native Americans.

MCCULLOUGH: Yes, and dated back to maybe 1000 B.C. And one of the things that Rufus Putnam did was to make sure that that property, that territory – – 90 acres would not be molested and changed. So, he made that where the mound is, about 30 feet high. He made it a graveyard for people who were living there then and would die there and be buried there, including Rufus Putnam, in that way it would be saved and it’s still there. It’s a treasure.

ISAACSON: You have some of the settlers here. You quote them as calling the Indians, you know, savages.

MCCULLOUGH: Yes.

ISAACSON: And even you mentioned that a couple of times. And yet there is a guy, Horus Ny (ph) who’s one of the settlers, who says, maybe we’re the savages. I’m looking at it —

MCCULLOUGH: Oh, absolutely.

ISAACSON: Could you have done more and try to find more to see it in the other direction of what the native Americans may have thought about people taking their land?

MCCULLOUGH: Well, I think — well, I’d like to think, I’ve included everything related to my story, to my characters. I wanted to see things through their eyes. And they didn’t call them native Americans. For example, they called them Indians or they talked of the tribes. I think one of the things that most people don’t understand is how many different tribes there were and how they weren’t the same. They weren’t all the same. And I think one of the most telling examples of all of this empathy for the native Americans among several of the five characters who were the principal subject in my book is that when Samuel, Dr. Hildreth went to speak before a medical convention in Cleveland about 1831, I think it was, he, in this effect, delivered what was a him to the vanished wilderness, by then vanished, and to the original occupants that once occupied that wilderness.

ISAACSON: And do you understand the criticism that some native Americans have felt about that or do you think that, sort of, missing —

MCCULLOUGH: I don’t know that they felt — I know some of the scholars feel that way. But I hope they would know that I am all for what they are doing. I’m all for anything they can do. One of the things we don’t have is the letters and diaries and memoirs written by the Native Americans. We don’t even have a picture. We don’t even know what blue jacket, one of the key figures in this drama, we dont even know what he looked like. And one of the thrills of this collection that I had collected somewhat, is that an oil portrait of each of the five characters. And all were living and they’re playing out their roles in life before photography had been invented. Otherwise, I would have to try and suppose from descriptions written about them and what they look like.

ISAACSON: You started your career as a journalist. To what extent do you bring your journalistic skills to writing a book?

MCCULLOUGH: I never imagined I would be writing history. I don’t know about you. I never imagined I’d be writing a biography. But I was working for the USIA during the Kennedy years. And I went up to the Library of Congress to look for some material, the editor of Life Magazine, Style Magazine, these are a lot of pictures. And came in one day and there were – – you know, a big table that spread out, photographs taken by a photographer who got over the mountains down into Johnstown within the few days after the terrible flood there. And I could not believe what I saw. And when I saw those photographs and I thought, whoa. How in the hell did that ever happen? And I got going on reading about it and I realized I love doing this. This is what I’m going to do from now on.

ISAACSON: You talked about the values of decency, caring about community, neighbors that were part of the founding.

MCCULLOUGH: Yes.

ISAACSON: You do that in your earlier book. And then here with the westward expansion of America. So, you look at our leadership today and you keep talking about humility.

MCCULLOUGH: Yes.

ISAACSON: Not bragging.

MCCULLOUGH: Right.

ISAACSON: Having the basic values of Kennedy. Do you think we’ve really lost that in Washington? And what should people do?

MCCULLOUGH: They should straighten up and look back at the values that they were brought up with, that we are taught in schools, the lessons of history. Many of our finest presidents have been historians, as well as colonial leaders. I think history should be required. If for no other reason that young people should realize, if they don’t already, that some things in life are required. And if one of them is, to be honest and truthful, a decent to your fellow citizen and helpful to the needy. Treating everybody alike. Recognizing that it’s from immigrants that so much of what we’ve achieved in this country has happened because of the genius of people who’ve come into this country from elsewhere.

ISAACSON: Throughout your career, you’ve had a really important partner, your wife. And I’ve watched her influence on you. Tell me a story about Rosalee.

MCCULLOUGH: She was reading my book about Theodore Roosevelt, “Mornings on Horseback” aloud to me. And we were making changes and so forth. And we got to — at a point near the end of the book, and she was reading aloud and she stopped and said, there’s something wrong with that sentence. And I said — I didn’t want to hear, I said, well, read it again. And she read it again. She said, there’s something wrong with that sentence. I know there is. Here. Give me that. So, I took it from her and I read it aloud to her. And she said, there’s something wrong with that sentence. I said, forget it. We move on. So, we moved on. Finished the book. Sent it to the publisher. Book was published. And it got a very favorable review in the New York Review of Books by Gore Vidal. And he said, sometimes, however, Mr. McCullough doesn’t write very well. Consider this sentence.

ISAACSON: Well, it’s probably worth it to have that bad sentence —

MCCULLOUGH: Yes, right.

ISAACSON: — because you got a good story out of it.

MCCULLOUGH: Thank you.

ISAACSON: David, thank you for being with us.

MCCULLOUGH: Oh, honored. Thank you for including me.