Adm. Kirby: “Putin Wants Leverage At The Negotiating Table”

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: And, John, we have obviously been around and out and about. I have and so have colleagues. We heard and we saw the heavy bombardments that are going around various parts just on the outskirts of the capital. And we have seen what’s happened in Chernihiv…

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: That’s right.

AMANPOUR: … a lot of what the mayor there calls a colossal bombing. But I want to ask you this, because, I guess, why do you think there’s all this fighting going on now, from a military point of view, as you say and they say they’re probably going to redirect forces elsewhere and probably to Donbass?

KIRBY: I think it’s a couple of things, Christiane. Number one, I think Mr. Putin wants to gain leverage at the negotiating table. So, he met yesterday in Istanbul. The Russians said that it was a constructive conversation, but nothing was really agreed to. We think it’s the Russian play to try to bargain for more leverage, which is why they’re continuing the onslaught on some of these city centers, Kharkiv, Chernihiv, Kyiv, Mariupol, which is still under the threat of significant airstrikes. We also think that what they’re trying to do in the east, a couple of things, one, try to fix and hold Ukrainian armed forces that are there in the joint forces operations area, so that they can’t come to the aid of their colleagues further west in the country, and, number two, so that they can carve off that Donbass. Now, it’s not clear whether he wants it to own it, occupy it and annex it forever, or whether he’s trying to be able to achieve some level of success on the ground there, so that he can use that as a bargaining chip at the negotiating table. But you heard Mr. Yermak yourself. The Ukrainians are not willing to give up their sovereignty. They’re not willing to give one inch of their territory, nor should they have to. What really needs to happen is Mr. Putin needs to sit down at the table in good faith now, rather than trying to bargain or leverage himself for more opportunity later on.

AMANPOUR: And yet he does, and yet their forces still continue to bombard certainly places in the south. I mean, the government here and people are just absolutely beside themselves about what’s happening in Mariupol. It is a terrible, terrible thing to be witnessing even from afar. Clearly, that plays into what you just alluded to, the desire actually to carve out that whole area for themselves.

KIRBY: Yes.

AMANPOUR: And who’s going to stop them?

KIRBY: Well, the Ukrainians are fighting bravely in Mariupol, and we are continuing to make sure that we get them as much defensive systems as we can as fast as we can. So they are — and they are defending it very bravely. But you’re right. We think — well, Mariupol is important just because it’s a big port city on the Sea of Azov. And there’s no question about that. But it sits at the southern end of that Donbass region. And so we think they definitely — Russians want it, so that they can, again, carve off that eastern part of Ukraine.