Ambassador Susan Rice Reflects on Her Life and Legacy

> NEXT WE TURN TO A VETERAN OF U.S. FOREIGN POLICY.

SUSAN RICE IS A FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER AND U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS, SHE SERVED TWO DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTS AND HELPED SHAPE AMERICAN RESPONSES TO MANY SO OF THE MOST CHALLENGING CRISES THE COUNTRY HAS FACED ABROAD.

AS SUCH, SHE'S ALSO HAD TO ENDURE HISTORY'S HASH GAZE INTO DECISIONS ABOUT THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE, THE ARAB SPRING AND SYRIAN CIVIL WAR AND SHE ACCOUNTS ALL THE DECISION-MAKING POLICY AT THE VERY HIGHEST LEVEL AND OWNS UP TO HER ROLE IN THE GOOD AND THE FWHAD A NEW MEMOIR 'TOUGH LOVE, MY STORY OF THINGS WORTH FIGHTING FOR' AND SHE SAT DOWN WITH OUR WALTER ISAACSON TO REFLECT ON HER YEARS OF SERVICE.

AMBASSADOR RICE, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.

THIS STARTLING HONEST BOOK IS CALLED 'TOUGH LOVE' AND HAVING READ IT I REALIZE WHERE THE TOUGH LOVE COMES FROM, YOU KNOW, YOUR UPBRINGING WAS LOVING AND REALLY TOUGH.

LET START BY ASKING ABOUT YOUR FATHER.

TELL ME ABOUT HIM.

WELL, MY FATHER EMMITT RICE WAS BORN IN SEGREGATED SOUTH CAROLINA IN 1920, AND HE ROSE ULTIMATELY TO BE A GOVERNOR OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT CARTER, BUT HIS CHILDHOOD AND HIS UPBRINGING WAS VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE NOT ONLY HE LOST HIS FATHER WHEN HE WAS 7 YEARS OLD AND THAT'S -- THAT SENT THEIR FAMILY INTO ECONOMIC DECLINE, BUT HE WAS REALLY STEEPED IN THE MOST INSIDIOUS FORM OF SOUTHERN BIGOTRY AND PREJUDICE.

WHEN WORLD WAR II BROKE OUT, HE WAS DRAFTED AND ENDED UP SERVING AT TUSKEGEE WITH THE FAMED TUSKEGEE AIRMEN.

THAT EXPERIENCE OF SERVING IN A SEGREGATED AIR FORCE AND FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM FOR EVERYBODY BUT HIS OWN PEOPLE WAS A VERY, VERY SEER ARING EXPERIE.

AS AN AFRICAN-AMERICANS THE PRIDE TO SHOW THE WORLD WHAT WE COULD DO, TO BE AS TALENTED AND EFFECTIVE AS ANY WHITE PERSON, MY FATHER'S VIEW WAS THAT WAS BASICALLY BS, THAT WE HAD NOTHING PROVE, THAT HIS JOB, MY JOB, OUR JOBS AS HUMAN BEINGS WERE NOT TO PROVE TO WHITE PEOPLE THAT WE WERE AS GOOD AS THEM.

HE GAVE YOU A BUNCH OF LESSONS.

YOU WROTE THEM DOWN EVEN.

HE GAVE US TONS OF LESSONS.

TELL ME.

ONE OF THEM ABOUT RACE WAS IN -- AND THIS CAME LATER IN HIS CAREER AFTER HE GOT HIS PhD IN ECONOMICS AND AFTER HE ROSE TO SOME MEASURE OF PROFESSIONAL SUCCESS, HE CONCLUDED THAT IF RACE IS GOING TO CAUSE A PROBLEM, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE FROM ME.

LET IT BE FROM SOMEBODY ELSE AND HIS ULTIMATE MANTRA WAS DON'T TAKE CRAP OFF OF ANYBODY.

YOU BE YOU AND DO YOUR BEST AND BELIEVE IN YOURSELF AND DON'T LET ANYBODY TELL YOU CAN'T OR STAND IN YOUR WAY.

THAT'S A THEME IN YOUR BOOK, LIKE YOU'RE NOT TAKING CRAP FROM ANYBODY.

I TOOK THAT MESSAGE TO HEART FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

AND YOUR MOTHER WAS --

MY MOTHER WAS EXTRAORDINARY, TOO.

SHE CAME FROM A FAMILY THAT IMMIGRATED TO MAINE, PORTLAND, MAINE FROM JAMAICA IN 1912.

MY GRANDPARENTS ON MY MOM'S SIDE HAD VIRTUALLY NO FORMAL EDUCATION.

ONE WAS A JANITOR, ONE WAS A MAID AND A SEAMSTRESS AND THEY CAME TO THIS COUNTRY LIKE SO MANY OTHER IMMIGRANTS IN SEARCHCH ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY AND EDUCATION FOR THEIR KID.

THEY HAD FIVE KIDS.

MY MOTHER WAS THE YOUNG E.

MY MOTHER IS WITH A THE VALEDICTORIAN OF HER HIGH SCHOOL CLASS IN PORTLAND, MAINE, STUDENT GOVERNMENT PRESIDENT, CHAMPION DEBATER, JUST KNOCKED THE LIGHTS OUT, AND SHE GOT ADMITTED TO RADCLIFFE, BUT BECAUSE MY GRANDFATHER, WHO WAS WORKING AS A JANITOR IN A MUSIC STORE HAD A CATASTROPHIC ACCIDENT 18 MONTHS BEFORE MY MOM WAS GOING TO GO TO COLLEGE.

HE BROKE HIS BACK AND SHATTERED HIS FEET AND SPENT MONTHS IN THE HOSPITAL SO THAT ALL THEIR SAVINGS WERE DRAINED AND MY MOM APPLIED FOR A SCHOLARSHIP FROM THE COMMITTEE IN THE STATE OF MAINE THAT'S SUPPOSED TO PROVIDE SCHOLARSHIPS TO KIDS GOING TO RADCLIFFE.

MY MOM WAS A SHOO-IN BECAUSE SHOW WAS A VALEDICTORIAN AND SHE WAS DENIED THE SCHOLARSHIP BECAUSE THE LADY WHO RAN THE COMMITTEE TOLD HER THE PURPOSE OF THE SCHOLARSHIP IS AFTER YOU GRADUATE TO COME BACK TO MAINE AND MOVE IN THE PROPER SOCIAL CIRCLES SO YOU CAN SUPPORT THE COLLEGE AND RAISE MONEY FOR IT, AND BECAUSE YOU'RE BLACK YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO DO THAT, SO THE END.

STORY IS HER PRINCIPAL IN HIGH SCHOOLABLE HER DEBATE COACH WENT DIRECTLY TO RADCLIFFE AND ASKED THEM TO GIVE HER THE MONEY AND THEY DID SO MY MOTHER MADE HER LIFE'S WORK BEFORE SHE WENT INTO THE PRIVATE SECTOR, EXPANDING OPPORTUNITY FOR LOW-INCOME PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY TO ATTEND COLLEGE.

AND THAT'S WHY SHE HELPED PUSH THE PELL GRANTS, RIGHT?

WHEN SHE DIED HER OBITUARY SAID MOTHER OF THE PELL GRANT BECAUSE SHE WORKED MANY YEARS ALONG WITH SENATOR CLAIBORNE PELT TO MAKE THAT GRANT PROGRAM ACCESSIBLE, AND, WALTER, I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW PROUD I AM.

80 MILLION AMERICANS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GO TO COLLEGE BECAUSE OF THAT PELL GRANT PROGRAM.

HOW DID YOU FIRST MEET PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA?

I FIRST MET HIM IN THE SUMMER OF 2004 WHEN HE WAS RUNNING FOR SENATE FROM ILLINOIS, AND I WAS WORKING FOR SENATOR JOHN KERRY WHO HAS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, AND I WAS ONE OF THE SENIOR PEOPLE ON JOHN KERRY'S FOREIGN POLICY TEAM DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

WHEN HE RUNS FOR PRESIDENT, HE ASKED TO YOU JOIN THE TEAM, BUT SO DOES THE CLINTON CAMPAIGN, THE HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN.

WERE YOU TORN BETWEEN THE TWO, OR WAS IT CLEAR IN YOUR MIND THAT OBAMA WAS SOMETHING FRESH FOR AMERICA?

I HAD ALREADY COMMITTED TO OBAMA.

BUT I REALIZED IN COMMITTING TO OBAMA, HAVING BEEN -- HAVING SERVED FOR EIGHT YEARS IN THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION THAT I WAS PROBABLY MAKING A CHOICE IN ALL LIKELIHOOD NOT GOING TO BE BENEFICIAL FOR MY CAREER BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE ASSUMED, AS -- AS THE BETTING MONEY WAS ON SENATOR CLINTON TONIGHT NOMINEE.

BARACK OBAMA SEEMED TO MANY PEOPLE LIKE A LONG SHOT AND YET I MADE THIS CHOICE VERY WITTING OF THAT POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCE BECAUSE TO ME OBAMA REPRESENTED SOMETHING THAT WENT FAR BEYOND POLITICS OR EVEN POLITICAL AFFILIATION.

WHAT'S THAT?

TO ME MOST OF ALL I THOUGHT THAT HIS ELECTION, IF IT COULD BE ACCOMPLISHED, COULD BE TRANSFORMATIVE AND WOULD SPEAK VOLUMES ABOUT OUR NATION AND ITS POTENTIAL TO GROW AND CHANGE.

SO WHEN OBAMA GETS ELECTED, HE ASKS YOU TO BECOME THE AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS AND ASKS HILLARY CLINTON, WHO YOU DIDN'T WORK ON HER CAMPAIGN, TO BE SECRETARY OF STATE, AND YET YOU FORM A PRETTY GOOD BOND WITH SECRETARY CLINTON AT THAT POINT.

SHE IS, AS YOU KNOW, A PURE PROFESSIONAL, AND WE WERE THERE WORKING IN SERVICE OF OUR COUNTRY AND IN SERVICE OF THE ADMINISTRATION, AND I HAVE TO SAY NEVER ONCE DID I FEEL THAT SHE DID ANYTHING OTHER THAN PROVIDE ME WITH, YOU KNOW, THE SUPPORT THAT ANY TEAMMATE WOULD PROVIDE TO ANOTHER.

THAT WHOLE THING LEADS TO THE TOUGHEST TIME IN YOUR CAREER WHICH IS BENGHAZI AND WHAT HAPPENED.

YOU LOST A CLOSE FRIEND IN THE BENGHAZI ATTACK.

AMBASSADOR CHRIS STEVENS AND THEN THREE OTHER AMERICANS.

RIGHT.

AND IT WAS NOT SOMETHING YOU WERE PARTICULARLY INVOLVED IN, BUT THEN ON A SUNDAY THEY WANT YOU TO DO THE TALK SHOWS.

THEY -- AND THEY GIVE YOU THE TALKING POINTS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN BENGHAZI.

WHAT DID YOUR MOTHER SAY WHEN YOU TELL HER YOU'RE GOING TO GO ON THE TV SHOWS?

THE MORAL OF THE STORY, WALTER, IS LISTEN TO YOUR MOTHER.

RIGHT.

I WENT TO CHECK ON MY MOM AND SHE'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, I KNOW YOU'VE HAD A ROUGH WEEK.

HANGING IN THERE, YEAH.

WHAT IS YOUR PLAN FOR THE WEEKEND, AND I SAID WELL ON SUNDAY I'VE BEEN ASKED TO GO ON ALL FIVE SUNDAY SHOWS TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK WHICH WAS NOT ONLY BENGHAZI AND THAT TRAGEDY BUT YOU MAY REMEMBER THAT MANY OF OUR EMBASSIES AROUND THE WORLD BEEN ATTACKED BY VIOLENT PROTESTERS, NOT PRISTS, BUT VIOLENT PROTESTERS, SO I EXPLAINED TO HER THAT I WAS GOING ON THE SHOWS, AND SHE SAID WHAT?

WHY YOU?

WHY NOT SECRETARY CLINTON, AND I SAID, WELL, MY UNDERSTANDING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE IS SHE WAS ASKED AND SHE DECLINED.

I PRESUME BECAUSE SHE WAS EXHAUSTED AFTER A LONG WEEK AND EMOTIONALLY DRAINED.

DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT, AND, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT, BUT I AGREED TO DO IT BECAUSE THEY ASKED ME TO AND I UNDERSTAND THAT SOMEBODY NEEDS TO GO OUT ON THESE SHOWS AND I AGREED TO DO IT BECAUSE I'M A TEAM PLAYER, AND MY SAYS I SMELL A RAT.

YOU SHOULD NOT GO ON THE SHOWS.

DID SHE SMELL A RAT MEANING THAT SECRETARY CLINTON WAS SETTING YOU UP?

I THINK SHE SMELLED VARIOUS RATS.

THE FIRST ONE WAS THE ONE THAT -- THAT I PUT GREATEST STOCK IN IN RETROSPECT WHICH IS THAT, YOU KNOW, IN A POLITICALLY CHARGED ENVIRONMENT, THIS IS THE MIDDLE OF THE 2012 ELECTION CAMPAIGN, AND SOMETHING TRAGIC LIKE THIS HAPPENS AND INEVITABLY THE INFORMATION IS GOING TO TURN OUT TO BE IN SOME WAY, SHAPE OR FORM PERFECT THAT WHOEVER IS OUT THERE SPEAKING FIRST IS LIKELY TO BE TARGETED, NOT JUST THE MESSAGE BUT THE MESSENGER.

I THINK SHE UNTWO OFTIVE HI UNDERSTOOD THAT.

I THINK SHE SOMEHOW SUSPECTED THAT I WAS BEING THREAT FORWARD BY SECRETARY CLINTON AND SHEEP WAS RECESSING.

I DON'T ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT AND MY MOTHER AND I HAD THIS TRG.

I THINK SECOND CLINTON MAY HAVE MADE A JUMP AND.

AT LEAST I HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE, THAT SO I NEVER FELT LIKE THE VERSION OF THIS STORY WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, THAT SOME PEOPLE CLAIM THAT I WAS SET UP IS FAIR AND I DO THINK THAT'S INTERESTING AND WHAT I'VE TRIED TO LEARN IN MY LESSONS SENSE CONSTITUENT LIP TO BE A TEAM PLAY AND NOT THINK ABOUT COULD THERE BE CONSEQUENCES FOR ME?

MAYBE NOBLE BUT IT CAN BE SELF-DEFEATING, AND IN THIS CASE IT -- IT PROVED TO BE COSTLY.

SO THEY GAVE YOU TALKING POINTS, THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITIES, THAT SAYS HERE'S WHAT HAPPENED AND THE TALKING POINTS IS SAY THERE DEMONSTRATIONS AND IT WAS VERY OPPORTUNISTIC THAT SOME OF THE EXTREMISTS GET AND THEN, WHAT, HAPPENED.

? IT WAS DAY -- I SAID AT THE I'M, BUT IT COULD CHANGE.

THERE WILL BE INVESTIGATIONS AND I'M TELL YOU TODAY WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE THE KATE.

THEY SAID YOU WERE PURPOSE POLICE MISLEADING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT BENGHAZI WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK AND THAT THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO COVER IT UP.

THAT WAS THE LINE OF.

THIS WAS MOTIVATED BY ELECTION YEAR POLITICS AND HERE WAS AN ATTACK ON YOU'RE FACILITY ON OUR WATCH AND THEY WANTED TO USE THAT TO ATTACK THE PRESIDENT.

I THINK BECAUSE I WAS PERCEIVED AS BEING CLOSE TO THE PRESIDENT AND I WAS SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND MAYBE FOR A VARIETY OF OTHER REASONS THEY THOUGHT ME AN ATTRACTIVE TARGET.

WAS THERE SOMETHING YOU COULD HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY WITH THE TALKING POINTS?

WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE IS COMPARE THE TALKING POINTS, PUBLICLY AVAILABLE INFORMATION, WITH WHAT I KNEW TO BE THE CLASSIFIED INFORMATION.

THE CLASSIFIED INFORMATION MATCHED THE TALKING POINTS.

LINDSEY GRAHAM IN PARTICULAR BECOMES A POINT PERSON -- YOU BOMB A PUNCHING BACK.

WHAT'SED PHRASE?

RECYCLABLE BOOGIEMAN.

THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD.

YOU CALL HIM SNARKY.

WAS THIS PERSONA?

I HAD A GOOD RELATIONSHIP AND HE WENT ON TELEVISION AND CALLED ME EITHER INCOMPETENT AND UNTRUSTWORTHY, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, AMERICA HAS SEEN A LOT MORE OF LINDSEY GRAHAM.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY IN A?

I'M ABOUT TO TELL.

YOU IN RECENT MONTH THAN THE TRUMP ERROR.

I THINK LINDSEY GRAM FOUND HIMSELF TO BE A MAV VIC AKIN TO JOHN McCAIN AND I THINK JOHN McCAIN IS A MAVERICK AND SOMEONE I RESPECT.

I THINK LINDSEY GRAHAM IS SEEP AS SOMEBODY, AS HE DID DURING THE 2006 CAMPAIGN, TOLL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HOW MUCH PEOPLE THE UNITED STATES COULD BE IN IF THEY ELECTED DONALD TRUMP, AND NOW EVERY DAY WE SEE HIM APOLOGIZING FOR, YOU KNOW, WHITEWASHING AND TAN SANITIZING, YOU KNOW, DECISIONS.

DURING THAT PERIOD PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA WAS CONSIDERING TAPPING YOU TO BE SECRETARY OF STATE, AND AT A CERTAIN POINT YOU DECIDE YOU JUST HAVE TO WITHDRAW FROM CONSIDERATION.

TELL ME THE EFFECT THAT HAD ON YOUR SON JAKE.

JAKE AT THAT POINT WAS 15, AND ALL THROUGH THE BENGHAZI THING HE HAD BEEN QUITE STOICAL, LIKE NOT REACTING THE WAY HIS SISTER WAS, NOT PARTICULARLY EMOTIONAL ABOUT IT, AND I SAT DOWN DOWN AND I SAID JAKE, YOU KNOW, THOUGHT LONG AND HARD ABOUT THIS AND I'M GOING TO TAKE MY NAME OUT OF SRGS.

HE BURST INTO TEARS AND SAID YOU CAN'T QUIT.

MOMMY, YOU CAN'T QUIT.

YOU'VE TAUGHT ME ALL MY LIFE NEVER TO BE A QUITTER.

HOW CAN YOU DO THIS, AND I WAS -- I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T EXPECT THAT.

I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO REACT TO THAT, AND I HELD HIM AND I SAID JAKE.

I KNOW I'VE TAUGHT YOU NEVER TO BE A QUITTER.

I'M NOT QUITTING.

I'M MAKING A DECISION THAT'S FOR THE FAMILY, THAT'S FOR THE COUNTRY, THAT'S FOR THE PRESIDENT'S AGENDA, AND HE'S LIKE -- HE'S ARGUING WITH ME.

THE FAMILY IS GOING TO BE OKAY.

WE'VE BEEN THROUGH THE WORST.

JAKE, I SAID SOMETIMES IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.

YOU'VE GOT TO PUT A LARGER INTEREST AHEAD OF YOURSELF, AND I MADE THIS DECISION AND I'M CONFIDENT IN IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I LOVE THAT HE LOVED ME SO MUCH THAT IT MATTERED THAT MUCH TO HIM, BUT I HOPE NOW THAT HE'S, YOU KNOW, SEVEN YEARS OLDER THAT HE UNDERSTANDED THE LOGIC OF THAT BETTER.

HE WENT TO STANFORD IN YOUR FOOTSTEPS, BUT HE'S BECOME A CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST.

WHAT'S THAT LIKE DEALING WITH THAT IN YOUR FAMILY?

IT'S -- IT'S INTERESTING.

I MEAN, THERE ARE LOTS OF ISSUES WE DISAGREE ON.

THERE ARE SOME THINGS WE AGREE ON AND CAN FIND COMMON GROUND.

WE HAVE ROBUST ARGUMENTS, BUT I LOVE MY KIDS, MORE THAN ANYTHING, AND -- AND JAKE AND HIS DIFFERING POLITICAL PERSPECTIVES HAVE TAUGHT ME SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT WHICH IS THAT, YOU KNOW, FIRST OF ALL, BEYOND ANY POLICY OR POLITICAL DIFFERENCES WE'RE A FAMILY.

WE LOVE EACH OTHER.

WE'RE NOT WILLING TO LET THESE THINGS TEAR US APART WHICH DOESN'T MEAN IT'S EASY.

DOESN'T MEAN WE DON'T ARGUE ON OCCASION, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY WE ARE COMMITTED TO HANGING TOGETHER FOR OUR FAMILY.

IS THAT A METAPHOR FOR THE COUNTRY?

I THINK IT IS.

YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND SOMEBODY THAT YOU DON'T SEE.

YOU CAN'T KNOW SOMEBODY THAT YOU WON'T LISTEN TO, AND INCREASINGLY IN THIS COUNTRY WE LIVE IN OUR OWN COCOON.

MY SON JAKE BRINGS HOME TO ME AN UNDERSTANDING AND PERSPECTIVE OF THE PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY AND WHAT THEY THINK.

WHEN AS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER DID YOU LEARN ABOUT RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS?

EARLY AUGUST OF 2016?

SHOULD YOU HAVE SAID SOMETHING MUCH MORE LOUDLY AS AN ADMINISTRATION?

I THINK WE SAID SOMETHING LOUDLY ON OCTOBER 7th WHEN THE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE AND THE HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY ISSUED AN UNPRECEDENTED STATEMENT WHICH SAID VERY PLAINLY TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT AT THE HIGHEST DEVILS -- CHARGED WITH INTERFEARS IN OUR ELECTION AND THE PERCEPTION THAT WE CAN'T, IS THAT AFTER FOUR HOURS, THE 'ACCESS HOLLYWOOD' TAPE WAS RELEASED WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS TALKING ABOUT GRABBING A WOMAN BY THE YOU KNOW WHAT AND A FEW WEEKS AFTER THAT WIKILEAKS DUMPED JOHN PODESTA'S E-MAILS.

RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE THEN BECAME THE THIRD STORY OF THE DAY.

STILL, WAS THERE MORE YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE, MORE YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID DURING THAT PERIOD OF OCTOBER AND EARLY NOVEMBER ABOUT RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN THE ELECTION?

MY JUDGMENT IS THAT WE WERE -- WE WERE RIGHT TO PUT OUT THE STATEMENT WE DID AND TO REITERATE IT AS WE DID IN PUBLIC.

WE WERE RIGHT TO FOCUS ON TRYING TO SECURE OR TRYING TO HELP THE STATES SECURE THEIR ELECTORAL SYSTEMS SO THAT THEY CAN'T BE MANIPULATED.

WE ARE PREPARED PUNITIVE OPTIONS TO USE IF WE NOW THE THOUGHT BE ELECTION THAT WOULD BE USEFUL.

WITH THE BENEFIT OF HIND SIGHT I WISH WE HAD DONE SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY WAS -- IN TWO RESPECTS.

ONE WAS WHEN WE ULTIMATELY EMPLOYED VERY TOUGH SANCTIONS IN DECEMBER AGAINST RUSSIA PENALIZING THEM FOR WHAT THEY DID, WE DID NOT GO QUITE AS FAR AS WE COULD HAVE.

WE DIDN'T TAKE THE KINDS OF PUNITIVE MEASURES THAT WOULD HAVE CUT OFF WHOLE SECTORS OF THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY BECAUSE PRIMARILY BECAUSE WE THOUGHT THAT THAT WOULD BOOMERANG BACK ON OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES.

THE NATURE OF THE TOOLS THAT WE HAD WERE NOT DISCRIMINATE, AND BECAUSE WE WERE ALSO TRYING TO KEEP THE EUROPEANS ON BOARD WITH THE SANCTIONS WE HAD COLLECTIVELY IMPOSED REGARDING UKRAINE, AND -- AND ALSO TO -- TO COMPLICATE THINGS, WE HAD A PRESIDENT-ELECT WHO WAS ALREADY INDICATING THAT HE WAS GOING TO TAKE A DIFFERENT APPROACH TO RUSSIA AND THAT HE WAS MUCH MORE FORGIVING OF THIS INTERFERENCE, AND SO WE WERE LOOKING OUT OVER THE HORIZON THREE, FOUR, FIVE WEEKS AND WONDERING IF WE PUT THE TOUGHEST POSSIBLE SANCTIONS ON, WOULD HE TURN AROUND, YOU KNOW, TWO DAYS AFTER THE INAUGURATION AND UNDO THEM?

UP WITH OF THE MOST ASTONISHING SCENES IN THE BOOK IS WHEN OBAMA IS ABOUT TO LEAVE OFFICE AND TRUMP IS ABOUT TO COME IN WHEN OBAMA ASKED WHAT SHOULD WE BE ABLE TO SHARE WITH THE INCOMING TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

ANY LIMITATIONS ON WHAT WE SHOULD SHARE BECAUSE FRAFNGLY HIS INSTRUCTION TO US FROM WAY BACK IS ABOUT AS FORTHCOMING AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN.

BECAUSE PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA WANT TOPPED DO A SMOOTH HANDOFF AS GEORGE W. BUSH HAD DONE FOR HIM YEARS BEFORE.

BUT ON THE PARTICULAR ISSUE OF RUSSIA, GIVEN SOME OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PUBLIC STATEMENTS, GIVEN THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER DESIGNATE FLYNN'S STATEMENTS AND ACTIONS AND GIVEN STUFF THAT -- THAT WE WERE SEEING IN OTHER CHANNELS, THERE WAS A QUESTION IN HIS MIND ABOUT WHETHER THERE WAS ANY REASON THAT WE SHOULD BE CAREFUL ABOUT THE EXTENT TO WHICH WE COMMUNICATE OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT'S UP WITH RUSSIA.

AND DID YOU HOLD BACK ON COMMUNICATING?

I'M NOT GOING TO GO THERE.

I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO CLASSIFIED INFORMATION.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP OF TRYING TO USE UKRAINE AND NOW EVEN CHINA, CALLING ON THEM TOLL DO INVESTIGATIONS OF BIDEN, FROM A NATIONAL SECURITY PERSPECTIVE, HOW DANGEROUS DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

IT'S EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.

IN THE CASE OF UKRAINE IT WAS, YOU KNOW, IS WITHHOLDING A PRESIDENTIAL NECESSARY AND WITHHOLDING $400 MILLION MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO A COUNTRY OCCUPIED BY RUSSIA, THAT'S IN A HOT SHOOTING WAR AS WE SPEAK WITH RUSSIA, OUR ADVERSARY-YARD TO GO THE HEY ALLEGED DIRT ON HIS POLITICAL OPPONENT.

THAT'S MIND-BOGGLING ENOUGH.

CHINA, THE SAME THING, MAKE UP SOME DIRT ON -- AND HE DOES THAT RIGHT AFTER HE DISCOVERS ALL THIS LEVERAGE IN THE TRADE DISPUTE WITH CHINA.

FOR BEIXING, IF YOU --. MAYBE WE CAN GET RESOLVE IN A FASHION THAT OWL BE SATISFIED WITH BEIJING.

THE PRESIDENT.

UNITED STATES IS SELLING OUT ALL OF THE AMERICAN POEM WHO HAVE PAID MIGHTILY FOR TRUMP'S TRADE WAR IN ORDER TO GET DIRT ON HIS POLITICAL OPPONENT.

IF THAT'S NOT A CUPS OF NATIONAL SECURITY, AND A DANGER AND AN ABUSE OF OFFICE, HONEST TO GOD I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS.

WHAT IS THE OVER ALL EFFECT N AMERICA'S STATUS IN THE WORLD?

WE HAVE A PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHO IS PLAINLY AND CLEARLY ACTING ONLY IN HIS PERSONAL POLITICAL INTEREST IT.

WHO IS GOING TO WANT TO JOIN US THE NEXT TIME WE CALL.

WHETHER IT'S TO DEAL WITH AN ECLA EPIDEMIC OR EVEN AS WE ARE WORRYING ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN IRAN.

I DON'T KNOW IF I'M PREPARED TO SAY THAT THE DAMAGE IS IRREPARABLE, BUT I THINK IF WE HAVE TO ENDURE AND THE WORLD HAS TO ENDURE FRANKLY ANOTHER FIVE AND A HALF YEARS OF THIS, IT PROBABLY WILL BE.

AMBASSADOR RICE, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU.

TAKE CARE.