April 22, 2024

♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

OPENING ARGUMENTS IN FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CRIMINAL TRIAL, AND I ASK HOW ALL THIS IMPACTS AMERICA IN THE WORLD.

FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL KORI SCHAKE AND FORMER EU FOREIGN POLICY OFFICIAL NATHALIE TOCCI AND HOWAL ALLIES WOULD BE EFFECTED ON ANOTHER TRUMP TERM.

>>> ON EARTH DAY, I SPEAK TO ABRAHM LUSTGARTEN ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK.

PLUS -- >> IT'S IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THAT BOTH SIDES OF ME ARE WORTH LIVING.

>> TWICE A REFUGEE.

HARI TALKS TO PALESTINIAN UKRAINIAN ACTIVIST ZOYA EL MIARI ON HER WORK AS A YOUNG PEACE ACTIVIST.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

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BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

OPENING ARGUMENTS WERE HEARD IN THE FIRST EVER CRIMINAL TRIAL OF AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT, AS A JURY OF 12 DETERMINES WHETHER DONALD TRUMP ENGAGED IN 2016 ELECTION INTERFERENCE OVER THE PAYMENT OF HUSH MONEY TO AN ALLEGED LOVER.

THIS JUST SIX MONTHS FROM THE 2024 ELECTION, WHERE HE'S VYING TO GET HIS OLD JOB BACK.

FOES AND ALLIES OF THE UNITED STATES AROUND THE WORLD WILL BE WATCHING CLOSELY.

SOME WITH INCREASING ALARM, ESPECIALLY UKRAINE.

THE EMBATTLED NATION DID GET THAT MUCH DELAYED, BADLY NEEDED BOOST FROM THE HOUSE THIS WEEKEND, AFTER SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON DEFIED THE TRUMP WING OF HIS PARTY TO PASS A CRUCIAL AID PACKAGE THAT WILL BENEFIT ISRAEL AND TAIWAN, AS WELL.

BUT WHETHER THE U.S. CONTINUES SUCH SUPPORT TO UKRAINE IN THE FUTURE WILL DEPEND ON WHAT AMERICANS DECIDE IN NOVEMBER.

JOINING ME NOW FROM TAIPEI IS KORI SCHAKE, A FORMER STATE AND PENTAGON OFFICIAL, NOW WITH THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE.

AND JOINING US FROM ROME IS NATHALIE TOCCI, A FORMER SPECIAL ADVISER TO THE EU FOREIGN POLICY CHIEF AND THE INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE IN ROME.

WELCOME, BOTH OF YOU, TO THE PROGRAM.

KORI, CAN I ASK YOU FIRST, SINCE I ASSUME YOU'RE GETTING A LOT OF QUESTIONS AS AN AMERICAN OVERSEAS, ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON?

I'M SURE ABOUT THE ELECTION, BUT CAN WE FIRST ASK WHETHER JUST THIS TRIAL IS RAISING ANY QUESTIONS FROM PEOPLE YOU MEET IN TAIWAN AND ON THE ROAD?

>> OH, OF COURSE IT'S RAISING QUESTIONS.

AND IT'S A REMINDER OF THE CHAOS PREMIUM THAT DONALD TRUMP BRINGS WITH HIM INTO AMERICAN POLITICS.

BECAUSE IT'S A REMINDER, BOTH FOR AMERICAN VOTERS AND FOR ALLIES, THAT -- THAT THE FORMER PRESIDENT DOESN'T APPEAR TO HAVE ANY ACTUAL PRINCIPLES TO HELP GUIDE AND ANTICIPATE HIS DECISIONS, AND THAT HE'S PROFOUNDLY CORRUPT.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU SAY THAT WITH A SIGH OF SADNESS, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, AND I JUST WONDER, I'M GOING TO ASK NATHALIE, AS WELL, WHETHER HIS ASSAULT ON THE DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS EVERY DAY, GOING IN AND OUT OF THE COURT AND ESSENTIALLY DENIGRAING THE INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY AND CALLING IT A WITCH HUNT, I JUST WONDER HOW YOU IN ITALY, NATHALIE, ARE INTERPRETING THAT, AND HOW ITALIANS INTERPRET THAT.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, I THINK -- I GUESS THE FIRST REACTION IS REALLY DISBELIEF, I MEAN, IT SEEMS ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE THAT SOMEONE WITH THE NUMBER OF INDICTMENTS THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS AND THAT WILL BE SPENDING THE NEXT, YOU KNOW, FEW MONTHS IN AND OUT OF COURT, AND WHO MAY WELL END UP BEING CONVICTED, COULD END UP BEING PRESIDENT AGAIN.

I THINK THERE'S A SORT OF FUNDAMENTAL LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THIS COULD ACTUALLY EVEN BE POSSIBLE.

SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, DISBELIEF IS PROBABLY, LIKE, THE FIRST REACTION.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, THERE'S A LOT OF CONCERN, BECAUSE IT IS CLEAR THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES IS ONLY GOING TO INCREASE THAT POLARIZATION FURTHER, AND THE MORE POLARIZED AMERICA BECOMES, THE GREATER THE ISOLATIONIST INSTINCTS, YOU KNOW, MORE LIKELY THOSE ARE GOING TO PREVAIL, AND, OF COURSE, AS YOU WERE SAYING, WE'VE ALREADY SEEN HOW THIS IS PLAYING OUT ON ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL QUESTIONS, SUCH AS THE WAR IN UKRAINE, AND, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, WE CAN ONLY IMAGINE THAT MORE OF THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE WEEKS AND MONTHS AHEAD.

>> I'M GOING TO COME TO YOU ABOUT UKRAINE IN A SECOND, BECAUSE YOU'VE JUST RETURNED FROM KYIV, YOU WROTE A POWERFUL ARTICLE FOR "THE GUARDIAN," BUT THE OTHER MASSIVE ISSUE FOR THE UNITED STATES, KORI, IS CHINA, AND, YOU KNOW, THE DEFENSE OF TAIWAN, WHICH IS A DEMOCRACY, AND HOW THE U.S. IS GOING TO MANAGE THIS ENORMOUSLY COMPLEX AND VITAL RELATIONSHIP.

WHAT DO YOU THINK -- HOW DO YOU THINK THEY'RE LOOKING AT THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW?

CHINA, IN TERMS OF WHETHER IT CAN COUNT ON U.S. DEFENSE -- RATHER -- TAIWAN, AND WHETHER IT CAN COUNT, AND CHINA, WHETHER THE U.S. IS GOING TO GET EVEN MORE PROTECTIONIST, GET EVEN MORE, YOU KNOW, FACEOFF OVER THE MILITARY EXPANSIONISM AND THE LIKE.

>> YEAH, WELL, I DO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS, ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION, POINTED OUT TAIWAN'S A SMALL COUNTRY ON THE EDGE OF A LARGE ONE, BUT TWO REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS ARE BEING DEMONSTRATED IN THE U.S.

RIGHT NOW.

THE FIRST IS THE JUSTICE SYSTEM HOLDING EVEN A FORMER AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE ACCOUNTABLE BEFORE THE LAW.

THAT REALLY MATTERS.

AND THAT'S A SIGNAL NATALIE AND AMERICA'S FRIENDS SHOULD ALSO TAKE.

THREE-QUARTERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 75% OF AMERICA'S LEGISLATORS, VOTED NOT JUST IN FAVOR OF AID TO UKRAINE AND AID TO TAIWAN, BUT ALSO TO FORCE THE CHINESE OWNERSHIP OF TIKTOK.

SO, WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS CONGRESS BEGINNING TO ASSERT ITSELF, EVEN AGAINST THE REFLEXES OF A VERY POWERFUL TRUMP CANDIDACY.

AND -- AND I THINK THAT MATTERS HUGELY, TOO.

BECAUSE TRADITIONALLY, THE CONGRESS HAS BEEN MUCH MORE ASSERTIVE THAN IT HAS BEEN IN ABOUT THE LAST 20 YEARS.

>> SO, THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, EVERYONE WAS WONDERING, WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THIS CONGRESS WITH THE POWERFUL TRUMP MAGA WING, AND OBVIOUSLY, MIKE JOHNSON, THE SPEAKER, BROKE WITH THAT GROUP AND DID WHAT HE SAID WAS THE RIGHT THING IN FINALLY PASSING ALL THIS AID.

SO, NATHALIE, YOU'VE BEEN THERE.

YOU HEARD PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY BE REALLY SAD AND COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW THE WEST AND ALL THE ALLIES WENT TO THE HELP OF ANOTHER NON-NATO ALLY, ISRAEL, WHEN IT WAS BEING ATTACKED BY, YOU KNOW, MISSILES AND DRONES FROM IRAN, BUT NEVER HELPED AND CERTAINLY THE ANTI-AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS ARE DWINDLING, NEVER HELPS UKRAINE AGAINST RUSSIA OR HASN'T IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING THERE?

WELL, FIRSTLY, ONE THING THAT ACTUALLY DID SURPRISE ME, I DIDN'T HEAR MUCH ABOUT TRUMP, AND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN OR MAY HAPPEN, AFTER NOVEMBER.

WHAT THE UKRAINIANS WERE REALLY FOCUSING ON IS WHAT THEY DEFINE AS THEIR WINDOW OF VULNERABILITY, WHICH BASICALLY GOES FROM, YOU KNOW, WHERE WE ARE NOW, AND WHERE WE HAVE BEEN FOR THE LAST FEW MONTHS, UP UNTIL THE END OF THE YEAR.

AND THEY WERE, OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS THERE, THE U.S.

SUPPLEMENTAL BILL HAD NOT GONE THROUGH YET.

THEY WERE HOPEFUL THAT IT COULD, BUT THAT REALLY IS, IN A SENSE, THE BARE MINIMUM.

YOU KNOW, THE ANALOGY THEY USED TO ME IS, YOU KNOW, THIS REALLY IS LIKE BEING THROWN INTO A RING AND BEING TOLD THAT FOR EVERY TEN PUNCHES THAT YOU RECEIVE, YOU'RE ONLY ALLOWED ONE BACK.

AND DOING ALL THIS WHILE AVOIDING A K.O., RIGHT?

SO, THIS IN THE SENSE IS THE PREDICAMENT THAT UKRAINE IS GOING TO BE IN OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS, AND, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, ASSUMING, OBVIOUSLY, THAT THESE WEAPONS NOW ARE GOING TO COME ONLINE.

IT'S NOT SUFFICIENT TO PUT THEM IN A POSITION TO BE BACK ON THE OFFENSIVE.

IF THEN YOU PUT ONTO THIS CONTEXT, YOU KNOW, THIS ABSOLUTELY DRAMATIC SITUATION OF THEIR AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS, WHERE, YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT WEAPONS THAT WE DON'T HAVE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A PROBLEM AND WE KNOW IT, IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION AND ARTILLERY, WE WOKE UP TWO YEARS LATE, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A WAR GOING ON IN EUROPE, AND WE'VE ONLY NOW STARTED RAMPING UP PRODUCTION, BUT WE'VE GOT THESE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS IN EUROPE, AND THEY'RE KIND OF COLLECTING DUST IN DIFFERENT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, DETERRING TOMORROW'S WAR, WHEN THE WAR IS GOING NOW, AND IT'S HAPPENING IN UKRAINE, AND UKRAINIAN CITIES, CIVILIANS, CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE, THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT ARE BEING HIT TODAY, WHICH -- SO, IT'S ABSOLUTELY SHOCKING THAT, YOU KNOW, TODAY THERE WAS A FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL MEETING, AND STILL, YOU KNOW, THE RESISTANCE, FOR REASONS THAT, FRANKLY SPEAKING, ESCAPE ME.

THE RESISTANCE IS STILL THERE, AS TO WHY ARE WE NOT, YOU KNOW, PROIFDING MORE OF THESE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS TO UKRAINE?

>> WELL, I WAS GOING TO ASK, WHY DO YOU THINK, BUT YOU'VE JUST SAID IT DEFIES LOGIC, BUT YOU ALSO WROTE TODAY, IF EUROPEAN AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS CONTINUE LYING AROUND, RATHER THAN BEING PROVIDED TO KYIV TO SAVE LIVES IN UKRAINE, THEY MAY END UP BEING NEEDED WHERE THEY ARE CURRENTLY STATIONED, NOT A SUBTLE HINT TO THE FACT THAT PUTIN MIGHT EXPAND HIS -- HIS OPERATIONS.

BUT KORI, I WANT TO ASK YOU, AS AN AMERICAN, I MEAN, THE RESPECTED AUTHOR, JOURNALIST, AND EXPERT ON THIS REGION, WROTE HER LATEST PIECE, SAYING THE PRO-RUSSIA GOP CAUCUS HAS BEEN DEFEATED.

IN OTHER WORDS, OVER THIS BILL.

AND NOW, UKRAINE HAS TO WIN.

BUT DEFEATED FOR HOW LONG, I'M NOT SURE.

BUT I WANT TO PLAY WHAT JOHN SAWYER, THE FORMER HEAD OF MI-6, TOLD ME OVER THE WEEKEND, ABOUT WHAT COULD BE EXPECTED IN UKRAINE.

>> CERTAINLY FOR THE REST OF THIS YEAR, UKRAINE'S TASK IS TO HOLD THE FRONT LINE WHERE IT IS AT THE MOMENT, RATHER THAN PUSH IT BACK.

I THINK WE WILL PROBABLY GET TO A POINT AT SOME STAGE WHERE THE FIGHTING IS NOT IN EITHER SIDE'S INTEREST.

I DON'T THINK ZELENSKYY OR THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT WILL EVER RECOGNIZE RUSSIAN CONTROL OF UKRAINIAN TERRITORY, NOT EVEN CRIMEA.

AND I DON'T THINK THE RUSSIANS WILL EVER PULL BACK FROM LAND THEY OCCUPIED.

>> IT'S INTERESTING, IT'S A REAL LAY OF THE LAND, THAT UKRAINE HAS TO SPEND 2024 REALLY HOLDING AND DEFENDING WHAT IT HAS, AND PRESUMABLY, THESE WEAPONS WILL HELP.

KIND OF BETTER LATE THAN NEVER, BUT KORI, HOW MUCH INFLUENCE DO YOU GIVE OR, YOU KNOW, TO THE RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA, WHICH "THE WASHINGTON POST" HAS LOOKED AT VERY CAREFULLY AND HAS, YOU KNOW, DOCUMENTED HOW THEY HAVE REALLY TARGETED CONGRESSPEOPLE, AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, TO TRY TO GET THEM NOT TO WANT TO HELP UKRAINE.

OKAY, THEY GOT THIS BILL PASSED, BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK MIGHT HAPPEN, YOU KNOW, IN THE NEXT WEEKS AND MONTHS DOWN THE ROAD?

>> WELL, I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT THAT THE SUPPORT FOR AID TO UKRAINE, YOU MEAN, THIS WAS A REALLY IMPORTANT VOTE, THE SUPPLEMENTAL, THE FOUR SUPPLEMENTAL BILLS THAT THE HOUSE PASSED, AND THEY WERE REALLY IMPORTANT, NOT JUST FOR THE IMMEDIATE ASSISTANCE THAT THEY PROVIDE, BUT AS A MARKER THAT AN AMERICA ENGAGED IN THE WORLD MAKES US SAFER AND MORE PROSPEROUS.

68 CENTS OF EVERY DOLLAR SPENT ON AID TO UKRAINE ACTUALLY GETS SPENT IN THE UNITED STATES, IT ASSISTS IN US REBUILDING OUR DEFENSE INDUSTRY, AND IT HELPS US PREPARE FOR FUTURE CONFLICT.

AND I THINK THAT ARGUMENT HAS BEEN ACCEPTED.

BY REPRESENTATIVES.

AND SO, THIS WAS A BELLWETHER VOTE ABOUT AMERICA AND THE WORD, IN ADDITION TO BEING A VOTE ABOUT THE SPECIFICS, AND I THINK THAT MAKES ME MORE CONFIDENT THAN IT SOUNDS LIKE NATHALIE MIGHT BE, THAT WE'VE LAID A FOUNDATION FOR CONTINUED AMERICAN SUPPORT, CONTINUED AMERICAN ENGAGEMENT.

AND I AGREE WITH JOHN'S ASSESSMENT.

YOU KNOW, IT'S FASHIONABLE TO THINK THAT MILITARY FORCE CAN'T SOLVE PROBLEMS, BUT EXACTLY FOR THE POLITICAL ASSESSMENT JOHN GAVE, ONLY MILITARY FORCE IS GOING TO DETERMINE THE OUTCOME IN THE WAR BETWEEN UKRAINE AND RUSSIA.

>> SO, THEN, LET ME ASK YOU, NATHALIE, DO YOU FEEL A LITTLE BIT MORE CONFIDENT AFTER THIS MESSAGE FROM THE CONGRESS THAT, YES, IN FACT, IT WILL DO THE RIGHT THING AFTER EXHAUSTING EVERY POSSIBILITY NOT TO DO THAT, THAT CHINA HAS LEARNED A LESSON, IRAN HAS BEEN SENT A MESSAGE, RUSSIA HAS BEEN SENT A MESSAGE, THAT ACTUALLY UKRAINE WILL CONTINUE TO BE SUPPORTED?

>> I MEAN, I THINK, CHRISTIANE, THAT WHAT THIS BILL INDICATES IS THAT WE CAN BE -- I WOULDN'T SAY CONFIDENT, BUT WE CAN BE HOPEFUL THAT 2024 WILL BE A YEAR IN WHICH, YOU KNOW, THAT ONE DOE OF VULNERABILITY THAT I WAS REFERRING TO, IS NOT GOING TO ACTUALLY END UP IN SMALL CATASTROPHICALLY BAD.

AND THAT 2024 WILL END UP BEING A LITTLE BIT LIKE 2023, IN WHICH UKRAINE LOST A LITTLE BIT OF TERRITORY, BUT NOT TOO MUCH.

NOW, I THINK THAT FROM THERE, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, BETTER THAN WHERE WE COULD BE, BUT IT'S STILL A WAY OFF FROM WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN TO ACTUALLY ENSURE THAT THIS WAR ENDS IN A MANNER THAT CREATES SUSTAINABLE PEACE IN EUROPE, AND, YOU KNOW, THIS IS -- HAS BEEN SAID MANY TIMES, THIS IS NOT SOME SORT OF CIVIL WAR, RIGHT THIS IS AN IMPERIAL WAR.

THEY ARE EITHER WON OR LOST.

AND WE'RE STILL A WAY, YOU KNOW, AWAY OFF FROM WHERE WE NEED TO BE TO ENSURE THAT THIS WAR ENDS WITH A DEFEAT FOR RUSSIAN IMPERIALISM, WHICH IS WHAT GENERATED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

SO, I WOULD -- ON A WHOLE, I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, GOOD THAT WE ARE WHERE WE ARE, WE COULD BE IN A MUCH WORSE PLACE, BUT WE'RE STILL A LONG WAY AWAY FROM WHERE WE NEED TO BE TO ENSURE THAT EUROPEAN SECURITY IS RESTORED.

>> AND, YOU KNOW, ACCOMPANYING QUESTION TO THAT, AGAIN, JOHN SAWYER SUGGESTING THAT -- IT'S AMERICA ALLIES THAT ARE GOING TO BE MOSTLY ON THE -- IN THE WORRIED BACK FOOT UNDER ANOTHER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

YOU KNOW, MAYBE NOT THAT HE'LL PULL OUT OF NATO, BUT MAYBE WEAKEN THE WHOLE ARTICLE FIVE COMMITMENT.

DO YOU HEAR THAT WORRY IN EUROPE?

NATHALIE?

>> YES.

IT'S A HUGE WORRY.

WHICH IS WHY -- WHAT I WOULD SAY TO YOU, WE'RE HEADED NOW TO EUROPEAN ELECTIONS, I WOULD SAY THAT ACTUALLY ALMOST REGARDLESS OF WHO WINS THOSE ELECTIONS, AND, YOU KNOW, WHO ARE THE LEADERS THAT ARE GOING TO EMERGE AS A RESULT OF THOSE ELECTIONS, DEFENSE IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE THE FIRST PRIORITY OF THE NEXT POLITICAL INSTITUTIONAL CYCLE IN EUROPE.

AND THAT IS NOT SO MUCH A QUESTION OF, YOU KNOW, RIGHT AND LEFT AND WHO WINS AND WHO LOSES, IT'S SIMPLY THE CONSEQUENCE OF A REALIZATION, TWO YEARS ON, ABOUT TIME, THAT OUR CONTINENT IS AT WAR.

>> AND KORI, DO YOU THINK THAT THAT COULD BE, YOU KNOW, A RESULT OF -- OF A -- IF THE ADMINISTRATION CHANGES, OBVIOUSLY PRESIDENT BIDEN IS ROCK SOLID IN SUPPORTING DEMOCRACY, AS HE SAID OVER AND AGAIN, AND ARTICLE FIVE, YOU KNOW, DEFENSE OF, YOU KNOW, AN ATTACK ON ONE IS AN ATTACK ON ALL.

DO YOU THINK AMERICA WILL REMAIN COMMITTED TO ARTICLE FIVE?

>> YES, I DO, BECAUSE AMERICANS REMAIN COMMITTED TO ARTICLE FIVE.

I THINK THAT'S ONE REALLY IMPORTANT TAKEAWAY FROM THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE VOTES.

THAT MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE WHO WERE WAVERING ABOUT WHETHER TO SUPPORT UKRAINE HEARD FROM THEIR CONSTITUENTS, AND THAT'S THE FOUNDATION FOR CONTINUED AMERICAN ENGAGEMENT IN THE WORLD.

IT'S ACTUALLY THAT AMERICANS GET IT.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT AMERICANS AND THE MIDDLE EAST, KORI?

YOU KNOW -- WHERE DO YOU THINK, YOU KNOW, AFTER, WELL, FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU THINK THE IMMEDIATE DANGER BETWEEN IRAN AND ISRAEL HAS SUBSIDED FOR A MOMENT?

AND THEN, HOW DO YOU THINK THE BIGGER WAR -- THE HOT WAR AT THE MOMENT -- CAN BE CONCLUDED?

>> I DON'T KNOW HOW THE WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST WOULD BE CONCLUDED, BECAUSE IT LOOKS TO ME LIKE IT'S BAD AND IT'S GOING TO REMAIN BAD FOR SOME CONSIDERABLE PERIOD OF TIME.

I DON'T SEE A POLITICAL CALCULATION, ANY POTENTIAL GOVERNMENT STRUCTURE, FOR GAZA, THAT'S GOING TO BE ACCEPTABLE TO ISRAEL, ACCEPTABLE TO PALESTINIANS, AND PARTICIPATED IN BY OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE REGION, OR BY THE U.N., SO, I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE PROBLEMATIC FOR A LONG TIME.

IN TERMS OF IRAN AND ISRAEL, I THINK THE ISRAELIS HAD TO RESPOND TO AN ATTACK FROM IRANIAN TERRITORY ON THE TERRITORY OF ISRAEL, AND I THOUGHT THEY DID SO WITH REAL ELEGANCE, THAT IS, THREE MISSILES SHOT, TAKING OUT THE AIR DEFENSES OF A MILITARY -- A NUCLEAR SITE, IN THE MIDDLE OF IRANIAN TERRITORY.

WHEN IRAN HAD FIRED, WHAT, SOMETHING LIKE 350 MISSILES AND DRONES, AND NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE TO ISRAEL.

IT WAS A RESTRAINED REACTION, IT REINFORCED THE TECHNOLOGICAL AND MILITARY DOMINANCE OF ISRAEL, AND SHOWED WHAT ELSE THEY CAN HOLD AT RISK, IF IRAN CONTINUES TO ESCALATE.

>> SO, LET ME JUST ASK YOU, NATHALIE, FROM A EUROPEAN PERSPECTIVE, THE IRAN/ISRAEL THING, ON ONE HAND, BUT IS THERE ANY HOPE THAT THERE'S, YOU KNOW, KORI DOESN'T HAVE MUCH HOPE FOR ANY POLITICAL SOLUTION ANY TIME SOON, WHICH IS GOING TO BE NEEDED TO RESOLVE THE ISRAEL/PALESTINIAN CRISIS.

DO YOU SEE ANYTHING?

I MEAN, ARE THERE ANY EUROPEAN LEADERS WITH ANY IDEAS?

>> WELL, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, FRANKLY, CHRISTIANE, WHERE AS IN THE CASE OF UKRAINE, ONE CAN CRITICIZE EUROPEANS FOR NOT DOING ENOUGH, BUT AT LEAST DOING THE RIGHT THING.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE MIDDLE EAST, IT'S BEEN AN UTTER CATASTROPHE.

EUROPEANS HAVE BEEN DIVIDED.

THEY HAVE BELATEDLY MOVED ON TO SAY THEY ARE IN FAVOR OF A CEASE-FIRE, NOT QUITE ENTIRELY UNITED ON THAT POSITION, BUT MOVING IN THIS DIRECTION.

SOME COUNTRIES HAVE SUSPENDED ASSISTANCE TO UNRWA.

IN DISCUSSIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, EUROPEANS ARE TOTALLY OFF THE MATH.

YOU BASICALLY KIND OF ASK YOURSELF WHAT, YOU KNOW, THE GULF COUNTRIES AND TURKEY AND, YOU KNOW, CHINA, RUSSIA, ACTUALLY THINK.

SO, EUROPEANS HAVE REALLY KIND OF EXCLUDED THEMSELVES FROM THIS EQUATION, AND THE LITTLE THEY HAVE DONE HAS ACTUALLY GONE IN THE DIRECTION OF PERPETUATING THE CONFLICT EVEN FURTHER.

>> GOSH.

NATHALIE TOCCI, KORI SCHAKE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> NOW, THE OTHER CONCERN ABOUT DONALD TRUMP IS HIS EFFECT ON CLIMATE, AFTER ROLLING BACK MANY ENVIRONMENTAL PROVISIONS IN HIS FIRST TERM.

NOT TO MENTION PULLING OUT OF THE PARIS CLIMATE ACCORD.

APRIL 22nd, TODAY, IS WORLD EARTH DAY, AND MY NEXT GUEST SAYS THE VERDICT IS IN.

AMERICANS ARE ALREADY BEING DISPLACED BY THE CLIMATE CRISIS AND IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE.

ABRAHM LUSTGARTEN IS A CLIMATE REPORTER, HIS NEW BOOK "ON THE MOVE" EXPLORES HOW CLIMATE CHANGE IS ABOUT TO PROFOUNDLY RESHAPE AMERICAN LIFE.

HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

TELL ME -- >> HI THERE.

>> HI.

HOW DOES YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, AND THE MOVES YOU'VE MADE, INFORM THIS BOOK ABOUT AMERICANS MOVING AROUND DUE TO CLIMATE?

>> YEAH, IT WAS THE CATALYST FOR TAKING A STORY ABOUT GLOBAL MIGRATION IN RESPONSE TO CLIMATE CHANGE LOCAL, AND STARTING TO LOOK AT HOW AMERICANS MIGHT ALSO BE DISPLACED FROM CLIMATE CHANGE.

I HAD BEEN WORKING ON A STORY FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ABOUT DISPLACEMENT AROUND THE WORLD, AND WE HAD A TERRIBLE FIRE SEASON, THIS WAS 2018-2019, STRING OF FIRES NEAR WHERE I LIVE IN THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA, AND IT REALLY MADE CLEAR HOW MUCH AMERICANS ARE ALSO BEING EFFECTED BY RISING HEAT, BY SMOKE, BY THE DANGER OF FIRES, BY SEA LEVEL RISE ON OUR COASTS, AND CAUSED ME TO START LOOKING, NOT ONLY AT MY OWN SITUATION, BUT TO CONSIDER FROM A REPORTER'S PERSPECTIVE, WHAT THIS MEANS FOR AMERICANS, AS THE CLIMATE GETS HOTTER.

>> SO, WE'RE GOING TO DISCUSS THE EFFECT IN A MOMENT, BUT IN YOUR BOOK, YOU WRITE, "PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS MOVED AS THEIR ENVIRONMENT HAS CHANGED, BUT TODAY, THE CLIMATE IS WARMING FASTER AND THE POPULATION IS LARGER THAN AT ANY POINT IN HISTORY."

AT ONE CHAPTER, YOU TALK ABOUT HURRICANE KATRINA, AND WHAT IT DID TO LOUISIANA, YOU DETAIL THE LIFE OF ONE WOMAN WHO BECAME A CLIMATE MIGRANT.

JUST ONE STORY, BUT EXPLAIN HOW CLIMATE, YOU KNOW, AFFECTS JUST THIS ONE INDIVIDUAL.

>> YEAH, SO, COLLETTE IS THE SUBJECT OF THIS STORY, AND SHE IS FROM A TOWN CALLED SLIDELL, LOUISIANA, JUST A LITTLE BIT NORTH OF NEW ORLEANS, AND WHEN HURRICANE KATRINA STRUCK IN 2005, AND HER AREA, HER TOWN, WAS REALLY DEVASTATED, SHE WAS LIVING IN WASHINGTON, D.C., AND SHE MOVED BACK TO LOUISIANA, AND SHE MOVED BACK WITH THIS HOPE OF -- FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE AND FROM AN ORGANIZATIONAL PERSPECTIVE, AND AS A MEMBER OF HER COMMUNITY, SEEING IF SHE COULD HELP REBUILD AND HELP KEEP THAT COMMUNITY IN PLACE AND KIND OF PREVENT THIS MIGRATION.

AND HER STORY IS A 15-YEAR BATTLE TO DO THAT, AND SORT OF SOME SENSE, IT IS A LOSING PROPOSITION, OR, A DIFFICULT PROPOSITION IN SOUTHERN LOUISIANA, AND THAT'S BECAUSE HURRICANE KATRINA, SO MANY YEARS AGO, WAS REALLY THE START OF A SHIFT OF POPULATION OUT OF THAT REGION, AND WE SEE, YOU KNOW, ALONG THE LOUISIANA COAST, WHICH IS SINKING AND BEING SUBSUMED BY SEA LEVEL RISE ALREADY, A GRADUAL DECLINE IN POPULATION, AND SO, COLLETTE'S STORY IS KIND OF AN EXAMPLE OF THE NUANCE OF AMERICAN CLIMATE MIGRATION, WHERE IT'S NOT BLACK AND WHITE, IT IS NOT A DISASTER HAPPENS AND PEOPLE MOVE, BUT IT IS SORT OF A LONG AND EMOTIONAL BATTLE, AND A DIFFICULT DECISION TO MAKE, YOU TRY TO STAY, YOU LEAVE FOR A SHORT TIME, YOU COME BACK, YOU TRY TO REBUILD, THE REBUILDING DOESN'T WORK OUT OR IT IS TOO EXPENSIVE AND SLOWLY, YOU KIND OF GIVE UP, AND SHE'S STILL THERE, AND SHE'S STILL FIGHTING THAT BATTLE, BUT THAT'S WHAT HER COMMUNITY HAS GONE THROUGH OVER ALL THESE YEARS.

>> AND INTERESTINGLY, THOUGH, YOU KNOW, WE'RE OFTEN LOOKING AT, FOR INSTANCE, COLLETTE'S STORY AND STORIES AROUND THE WORLD.

MIGRATION IS OFTEN ASSOCIATED WITH CATASTROPHE AND CALAMITY, AND WHERE THEY GO NEXT, THEY ARE EVEN WORSE OFF OR BARRED FROM GOING TO PLACES WHERE THEY COULD FIND SOME KIND OF LIFE.

BUT YOU ALSO SAY THAT THERE ARE POTENTIAL POSITIVES TO MOVING FROM ONE LOCATION TO ANOTHER IN THE UNITED STATES.

POSITIVES FOR WHOLE NEW PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, MY HYPOTHESIS IS THAT WHEN I LOOK AT THE DATA THAT PROJECTS THE CLIMATE RISKS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES GEOGRAPHICALLY, IT'S GOING TO SQUEEZE FROM THE COASTS, FROM THE WEST, ESPECIALLY, AND FROM THE SOUTH, NORTHWARD.

AND THAT YOU LIKELY SEE A SHIFT OF POPULATION IN THE UNITED STATES OVER THE NEXT COUPLE DECADES NORTHWARD, INTO THE NORTHERN MIDWEST AND INTO THE GREAT LAKES REGION, WHERE THERE'S AMPLE WATER.

AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS A POTENTIAL REVITALIZATION FOR A LOT OF THOSE COMMUNITIES, OR AT LEAST A LOT OF THE OPPORTUNITY FOR GROWTH THAT COMES WITH A GROWING POPULATION.

MAYBE AN INFLUX OF YOUNGER FAMILIES, YOU KNOW, ENERGIZED MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES.

BUT TO SEIZE ON THAT GROWTH, A LOT OF THE EXPERTS THAT I TALK TO TALK ABOUT THE NEED TO CAREFULLY PLAN, DEVELOP POLICIES THAT SUPPORT THAT MIGRATORY MOVEMENT, THAT PREPARE THINGS LIKE INFRASTRUCTURE AND PREPARE THINGS LIKE HOUSING, AND, YOU KNOW, AND ARE READY TO WITNESS AND SMOOTH THE PATH FOR THAT MOVEMENT, BUT IF THAT IS DONE, YEAH, THERE'S ENORMOUS GROWTH POTENTIAL FOR CERTAIN PARTS OF THE CONDITION TRY, AND OF THE WORLD, JUST AS THERE WILL BE DIFFICULTIES IN OTHER PARTS.

>> YEAH, SO, YOU'RE DESCRIBING SORT OF CLIMATE MIGRATION BOOM TOWNS, AS YOU SAY.

AND YOU SAY IF, YOU KNOW, IF THE SYSTEM REACTS TO THIS.

IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THAT THERE IS PREPARATION FOR THIS?

ARE THERE ANY PARTS OF THE COUNTRY WHICH ARE PREPARING TO WELCOME, YOU KNOW, NEW MIGRANTS FROM INSIDE?

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S BEGINNING, BUT IT'S EARLY DAYS.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, I DID QUITE A BIT OF REPORTING UP AROUND DETROIT, AND SOUTHERN MICHIGAN AREA, AND THERE, PEOPLE WERE STARTING TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS, DEEP PLANNING DISCUSSIONS, ABOUT THIS ISSUE, BUT HADN'T NECESSARILY PUT THOSE PLANS INTO ACTION.

BUT THERE WAS A RECOGNITION OF THE NEED FOR THE KINDS OF THINGS I SAID, LIKE INVESTMENT IN INFRASTRUCTURE.

YOU SEE CITIES LIKE BUFFALO, NEW YORK, CLAIMING THEY'LL BE A CLIMATE REFUGE AND MARKETING THEMSELVES THAT WAY, BUT NOT REALLY DEVELOPING A POLICY YET, BUT PRESUMABLY, THAT WOULD COME.

AND ANOTHER INTERESTING CASE STUDY THAT I LOOKED AT IN MY REPORTING IS THE CITY OF ATLANTA, WHICH IS THE FURTHEST ALONG.

ATLANTA IS MODELED TO BE A REAL RECIPIENT OF POTENTIALLY MILLIONS OF AMERICAN CLIMATE MIGRANTS, AND ATLANTA'S SPENT THE LAST DECADE GREENING AND IMPROVING ITS INFRASTRUCTURE ACROSS LARGE PARTS OF THE CITY, IN REALLY POSITIVE WAYS THAT MAKE PARTS OF THE CITY MORE SUSTAINABLE, BUT NOW, IT'S GRAPPLING WITH A NEW SET OF CHALLENGES, WHICH IS SORT OF A TEACHING MOMENT, WHICH IS DEFENDING AGAINST THE GENTRIFICATION WHICH HAS RESULTED FROM SOME OF THEIR GREENING AND THE NEED TO PROTECT SOME OF THOSE COMMUNITIES AS YOU PLAN FOR INCOMING CLIMATE MIGRATION, SO, THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF HOW SOME STEPS ARE BEGINNING TO THINK ABOUT THIS NOW.

>> AND HOW THE BALANCING ACT HAS TO BE GOTTEN RIGHT.

ON THE ISSUE OF FARMING, YOU ALSO -- YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT THAT.

YOU KNOW, THAT THIS COULD CAUSE INDUSTRIES AND HABITS TO CHANGE.

SOUTHERN REGIONS, YOU KNOW, COULD -- COULD GET, YOU KNOW, LESS YIELD, NORTHERN REGIONS -- TALK TO US ABOUT FARMING, WHICH IS SO CENTRAL TO AMERICANS.

>> YEAH, SO, TWO SEGMENTS OF MY REPORTING, ONE EXAMINED THE WATER SCARCITY IN THE WESTERN UNITED STATES.

THE COLORADO RIVER BASIN, IN PARTICULAR, WHICH FEEDS A GREAT DEAL OF OUR WINTER FRUITS AND VEGETABLE PRODUCTION IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, AND A GOOD DEAL OF THE AGRICULTURE ACROSS ARIZONA AND NEW MEXICO.

THAT INDUSTRY IN THAT REGION IS EXTRAORDINARILY IMPERILED.

IT WILL NEED TO REALLY REORIENT ITS USE OF WATER, IF IT HOPES TO REMAIN IN THE REGION WHERE IT IS CURRENTLY OPERATING, OR POTENTIALLY WE MIGHT HAVE TO SEE THAT AGRICULTURE SHIFT.

AND THEN, MORE BROADLY, I USE PROPRIETARY DATA ANALYSIS FROM AN ECONOMIC AND ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH FIRM, AND THAT DATA PROJECTS AGRICULTURAL YIELDS DECLINING ACROSS MUCH OF THE COUNTRY, AND, IN FACT, WE'VE ALREADY SEEN ABOUT A 12% DECLINE IN CROP YIELDS DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE SINCE THE 1960s, AND NOW, THEY PROJECT THAT THOSE CROP YIELDS WOULD DECLINE AS MUCH AS 90% IN SOUTHERN TEXAS, 30% TO 40% ACROSS THE GREAT PLAINS, WHERE WE HAVE REALLY THE BREAD BASKET OF THE COUNTRY.

SO, ALL OF THAT SUGGESTS THAT, WITH RISING TEMPERATURES, WHICH IS REALLY AFFECTING THOSE CROP YIELDS, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO RECONFIGURE AND REIMAGINE OUR AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRY.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO FACE FOOD SHORTAGES IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT WHERE THAT FOOD IS GROWN MIGHT CHANGE AND THE AMOUNT OF WHEAT, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WE EXPORT, AND THAT WE USE FOR FOREIGN AID, THAT ALSO MIGHT SHIFT.

THERE'S JUST REALLY ENORMOUS CHANGES IN STORE OVER THE NEXT TWO TO THREE DECADES, EVEN UNDER A FAIRLY MODEST CLIMATE WARMING PROJECTION.

>> INTERESTING.

YOU ALSO HAVE A CHAPTER CALLED "THE GREAT AMERICAN CLIMATE SCAM."

WHAT IS THAT?

>> WELL, ONE HUGE QUESTION THAT COMES UP WHEN YOU LOOK DEMOGRAPHICALLY AND WHERE PEOPLE LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES IS WHY, AS CLIMATE IMPACTS HAVE GROWN, AS HURRICANES HAVE BECOME MORE COMMON AND MORE POWERFUL, AND AS HEAT HAS OVERWHELMED THE SOUTH, WHY THOSE ARE STILL SOME OF THE FASTEST GROWING PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, AND THERE'S A LOT OF REASONS FOR THAT, BUT ONE OF THE SETS OF REASONS IS A HOST OF INCENTIVES THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS ALWAYS HAD TO ATTRACT PEOPLE AND EFFECTIVELY BLIND THEM FROM THE RISK THAT THEY FACE IN MOVING TO PLACES LIKE COASTAL FLORIDA, AND ONE OF THOSE SUBSIDIES IS THE PROVISION OF HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE, OR PROPERTY INSURANCE, AND FLORIDA'S A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THIS.

AFTER HURRICANE ANDREW IN 1992, INSURERS WERE LEAVING THE STATE, AND IT MIGHT HAVE SUGGESTED THAT PROPERTY WAS UNINSURABLE, BUT THE STATE STEPPED IN, SAID, WE DON'T WANT ALL THESE PEOPLE TO LEAVE THE STATE BECAUSE OF THIS ECONOMIC RISK, WE ARE GOING TO PROVIDE OUR OWN INSURANCE, AND SO, THEY CREATED A STATE SUBSIDIZED PLAN THAT BASICALLY SAID, ANYBODY CAN GET INSURANCE, AND WE'LL PROMISE IT'S GOING TO BE CHEAPER THAN ANY OTHER INSURANCE ON THE MARKET.

AND THAT'S THE TYPE OF THING THAT'S ATRAEKTED MANY MORE PEOPLE TO FLORIDA AND HAS BEEN REPLICATED ACROSS 30-ODD STATES IN THE COUNTRY, AND THAT'S THE KIND OF JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF POLICIES THAT TEND TO SORT OF BLUNT THE RISK AND THE PERSONAL ECONOMIC HOUSEHOLD DECISION-MAKING THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE ABOUT WHERE THEY LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> AND NOW, IF YOU PULL BACK A BIT, AND LOOK SORT OF MORE GLOBALLY, WHEN YOU SEE THE PROGRESS OR NOT BEING MADE ON TRYING TO ACHIEVE THAT, YOU KNOW, THE MAGICAL, YOU KNOW, 1.5 DEGREES, WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN ANY TIME SOON, BUT DO YOU SEE GLOBALLY, SORT OF ANY PROGRESS TOWARDS MAYBE SLOWING THIS MIGRATORY PROCESS THAT YOU SEE?

>> YEAH, SO, THERE'S A STUDY ABOUT THE HUMAN HABITABILITY NICHE.

AS PEOPLE SHIFT NORTHWARD, SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 2 AND 6 BILLION PEOPLE ON THE PLANET COULD BE, YOU KNOW, DISPLACED FROM THOSE IDEAL CONDITIONS, POTENTIALLY MIGRATING, AND, SO, THAT RESEARCH SUGGESTS THAT IF YOU CUT EMISSIONS, IF YOU KEEP TEMPERATURES CLOSER TO, YOU KNOW, TO 2 DEGREES CELSIUS, WHICH MABE IS A REALISTIC TARGET AT THIS POINT, THAT THE NUMBER OF POTENTIAL IGRANTS GLOBALLY AND IN THE UNITED STATES WOULD BE CUT BY UP TO HALF, BY CLOSE TO HALF, SO, IT REALLY MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE HOW QUICKLY WE CUT EMISSIONS.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE REDUCED OUR WARMING PROJECTIONS FROM WHERE WE WERE SIX OR SEVEN YEARS AGO, THAT'S SOME PROGRESS.

THE LEGISLATION THAT'S BEEN PASSED IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THE GOAL SET HERE, IS SOME PROGRESS.

IT GIVES ME A LITTLE BIT OF HOPE, BUT NONE OF IT IS HAPPENING FAST ENOUGH, AND GLOBALLY, WE DON'T YET SEE THE SIGS OF COUNTRIES LIKE CHINA AND INDIA CHANGING AS QUICKLY AS NEEDED.

AND IT IS JUST CRITICAL THAT IT HAPPENS IMMEDIATELY, AT THIS POINT, YOU KNOW, TO ALSO STEM THE FLOW OF THAT HUMAN DISPLACEMENT.

>> YOU JUST MENTIONED INDIA.

WHAT ABOUT CHINA, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU NOTICED THERE WAS A FAIRLY INTERESTING, POSITIVE ANALYSIS ABOUT WHAT XI IS ACTUALLY DOING, AND THAT HE MIGHT YET BE SEEN AS SOMEBODY WHO DID PUSH THE GREEN AGENDA.

DO YOU SEE THAT, EVEN THOUGH THEY STILL HAVE THEIR COAL-FIRED AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO KICK-START THEIR OWN ECONOMY.

>> YEAH, SO, THE SMART THING THAT CHINA IS DOING IS ESTABLISHING ITS LEADERSHIP IN A RENEWABLE ECONOMY IN, YOU KNOW, IN ELECTRIC VEHICLE PRODUCTION AND PRODUCING BATTERIES AND IN CREATING RENEWABLE EMERGENCY RESOURCES, SO, THAT'S ALL GREAT, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THIS ANALYSIS WAS ABOUT, AND I HAVE NO BONES WITH THAT, BUT ITS EMISSIONS ARE STILL ASTRONOMICAL, AND THOSE EMISSIONS, THEY JUST HAVE TO PLATEAU OR DECLINE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, ALMOST IMMEDIATELY.

AND THE SOONER THAT THAT HAPPENS, YOU KNOW, THE MORE THE GLOBAL EFFECTS OF WARMING WILL BE BLUNTED, AND BY EXTENSION, AGAIN, THE MIGRATION THAT WILL RESULT.

SO, YEAH, THERE IS A POSITIVE EXAMPLE THAT CHINA IS SETTING.

IT'S OPPORTUNISTIC, WHICH IS GREAT.

IT SHOULD SEIZE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO SHIFT ITS ECONOMY TOWARDS RENEWABLES, BUT AS LONG AS IT IS STILL USING ALL OF THOSE CARBON-EMITTING ENERGY SOURCES, THEIR WORK IS NOT DONE.

>> AND VERY BRIEFLY, WE'VE GOT ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT, ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, SINCE THE EVIDENCE OF TRUMP IN HIS FIRST TERM WAS TO ROLL BACK SO MANY PROTECTIONS, ARE ANY LOCKED IN AND SORT OF TRUMP-PROOF NOW?

>> NO.

NOTHING'S LOCKED IN.

AND THERE'S ENORMOUS RISK OF REVERSING SOME OF THE POSITIVE PROGRESS, NOT BOTH AMERICAN EMISSIONS CUTS, WHICH HAVE BEEN LEGISLATED, BUT THE EXAMPLE THAT WE SET GLOBALLY.

SO, I THINK ITS A VERY PRECARIOUS POSITION, AND IF YOU TAKE BACK SOME OF THOSE MEASURES, YOU KNOW, IT WILL HAVE DRAMATIC CONSEQUENCES GLOBALLY.

>> ABRAHM LUSTGARTEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>>> NOW, AS WE KNOW, THE CLIMATE CRISIS ISN'T THE ONLY ISSUE THAT DRIVES MIGRATION.

ACCORDING TO THE U.N., OVER 10 MILLION REFUGEES AND EYE SAY LUM SEEKERS WERE FORCED TO FLEE THEIR HOMES DUE TO CONFLICT IN 2022.

BEING HALF PALESTINIAN AND HALF UKRAINIAN, OUR NEXT GUEST HAS BEEN DISPLACED NOT ONCE, BUT TWICE, FIRST, LEAVING LEBANON IN 2021, AND THEN UKRAINE, WHEN THE WAR BROKE OUT TWO YEARS AGO.

NOW, ZOYA EL MIARI IS A PEACE AMBASSADOR FOR ONE YOUNG WORLD, IT'S A CHARITY THAT SUPPORTS YOUNG LEADERS ACROSS THE GLOBE, AND SHE JOINS HARI TO SHARE HER COMPLEX EXPERIENCE AS A REFUGEE.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

ZOYA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, FOR BEING HERE.

YOU ARE IN AN ALMOST UNIQUE POSITION OF BEING A REFUGEE TWICE OVER.

YOU ARE BOTH PALESTINIAN AND UKRAINIAN.

I GUESS FOR THE AUDIENCE, TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR BACK STORY, WHERE DID YOU GROW UP?

>> THANK YOU FOR THE INTRODUCTION.

MY NAME IS ZOYA, I'M HALF PALESTINIAN, HALF UKRAINIAN.

MY DAD IS PALESTINIAN FROM LEBANON, MY MOM IS UKRAINIAN.

I GREW UP IN A PALESTINIAN REFUGEE CAMP, THE LARGEST REFUGEE CAMP IN LEBANON.

THESE PALESTINIAN CAMPS WERE BUILT AFTER THE PALESTINIANS WERE FORCED TO FLEE THEIR HOMES BACK IN PALESTINE IN 1948, AND AFTER THAT, THE COMMUNITY THERE KEPT ON GROWING AND GROWING.

AND I LIVED IN THIS REFUGEE CAMP, WHICH WAS A COMMUNITY FILLED WITH -- UNTIL THE AGE OF 15.

AND LATER IN 2021, WHEN THE SITUATION IN LEBANON WAS GETTING WORSE AND WORSE, WE DECIDED TO MOVE TO UKRAINE FOR A FLESH FRESH START.

THE WAR STARTED IN 2022, WE HAD TO ESCAPE THE WAR, AND BECOMING REFUGEES FOR A SECOND TIME.

>> WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP AS A KID, I WONDER, DID YOU TELL YOUR FRIENDS IN SCHOOL THAT YOU LIVED IN A REFUGEE CAMP, THAT THAT WAS PART OF YOUR IDENTITY?

>> SO, I WENT INTO A VERY GOOD SCHOOL, UNLIKE MY SIBLINGS, THEY WERE GOING TO SCHOOLS WHICH WERE -- THEY WERE FACING SOME KIND OF CHALLENGES, AND WITH THE GOOD QUALITY EDUCATION THAT I GOT, THE CHILDREN THERE WERE COMING FROM RICHER COMMUNITIES, AND IN THAT SITUATION, I WAS REALLY SCARED, BECAUSE OF THE ASSOCIATED STEREOTYPES.

SO, I REMEMBER WHEN OTHER STUDENTS WERE WORRY ABOUT THEIR GRADES, I WAS REALLY SCARED THEY WOULD ASK ME, WHERE DO YOU COME FROM, THEY WOULD DISCOVER MY REALITY, LIVING IN THE CAMP.

SO, I WAS REALLY SCARED TO TELL THEM THAT I LIVE IN THE CAMP, OR -- I WAS REALLY ASHAMED ABOUT THIS REALITY.

>> SO, YOU HAD THE OPTION TO GO TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL OR A BETTER SCHOOL, AND THERE, YOU WEREN'T THAT PROUD OF YOUR REFUGEE STATUS OR IDENTITY.

WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU WERE, WELL, LEAVING UKRAINE?

I MEAN, AT THAT POINT, DID THAT CHANGE?

>> WHEN THE WAR STARTED IN UKRAINE, AND WE WERE ESCAPING THE WAR FOR THE SECOND TIME, BECAUSE BACK IN 2006, THE WAR BETWEEN LEBANON AND ISRAEL, WE WERE ALSO FORCED TO FLEE LEBANON TO UKRAINE, BECAUSE UKRAINE ALSO REPRESENTED A SAFE SPACE FOR US, A SAFE HAVEN, SO, WHENEVER SOMETHING BAD WAS HAPPENING IN LEBANON, WE WOULD ALWAYS GO TO UKRAINE, AND THIS TIME, THAT THE WAR WAS HAPPENING IN UKRAINE, WE HAD TO ESCAPE THE WAR FOR THE SECOND TIME.

AND I REMEMBER WHEN WE WERE IN THE TRAIN, HEADING TO POLAND, MY MOM SAID, WE SHOULD START SINGING.

WITH EACH SONG, OUR RESILIENCE WAS GROWING STRONGER.

AND THIS TIME, I PROMISED MYSELF THAT IF I MAKE IT OUT ALIVE, I REFUSE TO BECOME THE VICTIM I ONCE WAS.

BUT RATHER, I WOULD BECOME A WARRIOR AND A FIGHTER.

I WOULD FIGHT FOR THOSE IN UKRAINE, AND I WOULD FIGHT FOR MY PALESTINIAN SIDE, THE SIDE THAT AS A KID, I WAS AFRAID TO FIGHT FOR.

>> YOU KNOW, I'M STRUGGLING TO FIGURE OUT, LIKE, HOW THESE TWO IDENTITIES THAT YOU ARE LIVING INFLUENCE YOUR LIFE.

>> SO, EVER SINCE I WAS A CHILD, I ALWAYS HAD THIS INTERNAL CONFLICT, BECAUSE WHEN THE WAR HAPPENED IN LEBANON, AND WE ESCAPED UKRAINE, MY DAD WAS ONLY PALESTINIAN, AND IN LEBANON, WE ARE CONSIDERED STATELESS REFUGEES, SO, MY DAD STAYED IN LEBANON AND WAS NOT ALLOWED TO GO WITH US TO UKRAINE.

AND IT WAS REALLY, LIKE, IT CREATED AN INTERNAL CONFLICT IN ME, LIKE, WHY WOULD I BE ABLE TO ESCAPE TO A SAFER SPACE WHEN MY DAD STAYED BEHIND?

AND NOW THAT THE WAR HAPPENED IN UKRAINE, AND WE ESCAPED THE WAR, SUDDENLY, I FELT THAT THE WHOLE WORLD WAS WELCOMING THE UKRAINIANS, AND WE TRULY APPRECIATE THAT, BUT THAT IS SOMETHING THAT REALLY CONFLICTS THE OTHER SIDE OF ME, AND HERE, I FELT THESE DOUBLE STANDARDS OF ONE HALF OF ME BEING COMPLETELY HUMANIZED, WHEN THE OTHER SIDE IS COMPLETELY DEHUMANIZED.

SO, IT'S REALLY AS IF ONE PAPER, ONE DOCUMENT, DEFINES THE WAY I LIVE.

>> SO, EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

THE UKRAINIAN SIDE OF YOU, YOU FEEL IS HUMANIZED, AND THE PALESTINIAN DEHUMANIZED.

AM I HEARING THAT CORRECT?

>> YEAH, THAT'S CORRECT.

AND I CAN TALK ABOUT THE LANGUAGE THAT IS BEING ASSOCIATED WITH UKRAINIAN REFUGEES, FOR EXAMPLE, AND MY OTHER HALF, BEING PALESTINIAN.

FOR EXAMPLE, GROWING UP, WE ALWAYS GOT USED TO PALESTINIANS BEING PORTRAYED AS BARBARIANS OR TERRORISTS, AND ON THE OTHER HAND, NOW, AS UKRAINIANS, WE WERE REFUGEES, EUROPEAN REFUGEES, WHO THE WORLD SAW AS PART OF THEM, YOU KNOW?

PART OF -- OF THOSE PEOPLE.

SO, OFTEN, THE LANGUAGE THAT IS BEING USED IN WESTERN MEDIA, EUROPEAN MEDIA, ALL THIS PORTRAYS THE PALESTINIANS AS TERRORISTS.

SO, IN A WAY, THAT IS HOW THE GENOCIDE THAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA RIGHT NOW, PEOPLE ARE NOT ABLE TO SEE THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING IS TERRIBLE, BECAUSE OF THE MEDIA THAT HAS BEEN PORTRAYING THE PALESTINIANS OVER AND OVER AGAIN AS BARBARIANS OR TERRORISTS.

SO, THAT'S THE CONFLICTING DOUBLE STANDARD THAT'S HAPPENING, WHEN THE MEDIA PORTRAYS THE PALESTINIANS ONE SIDE OF ME IN ONE WAY, AND THE OTHER SIDE OF ME IN ANOTHER WAY.

AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THAT BOTH SIDES OF ME ARE WORTH LIVING, WHETHER I'M PALESTINIAN OR UKRAINIAN OR WHEREVER I COME FROM, I AM WORTH LIVING.

I DESERVE TO LIVE.

SO, YEAH, WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS, WE ARE ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS, EVEN AS REFUGEES, WE ARE NOT JUST NUMBERS OR STATISTICS TO BE PORTRAYED ON A SCREEN OR STREAMED ON THE MEDIA.

WE ARE ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS, WE ARE CHILDREN WHO ARE FULL OF DREAMS AND ASPIRATIONS.

WE ARE MOTHERS AND FATHERS WHO REALLY LOVE THEIR CHILDREN UNCONDITIONALLY.

SO, WE ARE NOT TERRORISTS.

WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS, JUST LIKE EVERYONES.

>> YOU LIVE IN SWITZERLAND NOW.

HOW DO YOU STAY A FAMILY WHEN PARTS OF YOUR FAMILY ARE HERE, PARTS OF YOUR FAMILY ARE THERE, AND YOU KNOW THAT THEY'RE BOTH IN LANDS WHERE THERE IS DANGER?

>> THIS IS A VERY SAD REALITY, AND THIS IS WHAT REFUGEES HAVE TO GO THROUGH, WHEN THE FAMILIES ARE SCATTERED ALL AROUND THE WORLD, BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF SAFETY AND SECURITY.

SO, THERE IS SOME TYPE OF SURVIVAL GUILT, OF COURSE, BECAUSE IN A WAY, WE WERE SAVED, BUT ALSO, IN LEBANON, THE SITUATION IS VERY BAD, IN UKRAINE, AS WELL, SO, IT IS ALWAYS CONTINUOUS WORRYING ABOUT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN HERE, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN THERE, ALSO IN WEST BANK, ALSO IN GAZA, SO, IT'S CONTINUOUSLY REALLY BEING IN A SURVIVAL MODE, OF COURSE.

AND IN A WAY, THAT'S REALLY ALSO MAKES ME QUESTION, LIKE, WHAT IS HOME TO ME?

I GREW UP QUESTIONING MYSELF, WHAT IS HOME TO ME, BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE, IF YOU ASK THEM, LIKE, WHAT IS HOME TO YOU, THEY CAN REALLY SPECIFY, LIKE, THAT'S MY HOME, THAT'S MY HOME, AND TO ME, LIKE, HOW CAN I SAY THAT PALESTINE IS MY HOME, IF I'M NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO VISIT MY HOME COUNTRY?

OR HOW CAN I SAY LEBANON IS MY HOME, IF I GREW UP AS A PALESTINIAN REFUGEE THERE, OR IN UKRAINE NOW, THERE IS A WAR?

SO, THIS ALSO REMINDS ME OF THE CONVERSATIONS I USED TO HAVE WITH MY GRANDFATHER WHO WAS FORCED TO FLEE PALESTINE BACK IN 1948, AND HE WAS SHARING WITH ME THAT, AT THE TIME, THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE LEAVING THEIR HOME JUST FOR THREE DAYS, AND THAT THEY WERE GOING BACK HOME.

AND THEY LEFT PALESTINE WITH THEIR KEYS, THAT THEY KEPT ON HOLDING FOR SO LONG, WISHING THAT THEY COULD ONLY USE THEM BACK HOME, AND MY GRANDFATHER DIED IN LEBANON, PALESTINIAN REFUGEE DIED IN LEBANON, WITH HIS ONLY ONE DREAM, TO USE THOSE KEYS, AND GO BACK HOME, BURIED WITH HIM.

AND THIS REALLY MAKES ME QUESTION, LIKE, WHY SOME PEOPLE FROM BROOKLYN OR EUROPE CAN COME TO PALESTINE AND TAKE THE ISRAELI CITIZENSHIP AND TAKE THE -- ENJOY THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS, WHEN US, AS PALESTINIANS, WHO GREW UP OUTSIDE OF PALESTINE, AROUND 6 MILLION PALESTINIANS OUTSIDE OF PALESTINE, AND WE ARE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO GO AND VISIT OUR COUNTRY, NOT ONLY NOT GO BACK TO OUR HOME, BUT NOT EVEN VISIT.

SO, MY DAD EVEN, MY DAD, WHO GREW UP IN LEBANON, HE'S NEVER -- HE HAS NEVER VISITED HIS HOME COUNTRY IN PALESTINE, BECAUSE HE'S NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO GO THERE AND VISIT.

>> WHAT DO YOU FIND ARE PARARELL BETWEEN THE CONFLICTS IN UKRAINE AND WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA RIGHT NOW?

>> SO, THERE IS OCCUPATION ON BOTH SIDES, AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTICE THAT.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I'VE BEEN MENTIONING, THAT WE CANNOT FIGHT FOR ONE PART OF ME AND NOT FIGHT FOR THE OTHER, BECAUSE REALLY, THERE IS NO ONE -- NO ONE IS FREE UNTIL EVERYONE ON THIS EARTH IS FREE, WHETHER IN PALESTINE, IN UKRAINE, SUDAN, CONGO, YEMEN, EVERYWHERE, THAT IS HOW TRUE LIBERATION, COLLECTIVE LIBERATION IS ACHIEVED.

ALSO, IN UKRAINE, EVERYONE KNOWS THE NARRATIVE.

THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS THE NARRATIVE.

KNOWS THE RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA, KNOWS THE OCCUPATION NOW HAPPENING IN UKRAINE.

AND WHEN IT COMES TO THE NARRATIVE WHEN WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT PALESTINE AND ISRAEL, SUDDENLY, THE LANGUAGE BECOMES VERY COMPLICATED, AND THE WHOLE SITUATION BECOMES COMPLICATED, WHEN IT'S REALLY CLEAR THAT THERE'S THE 0 PRESSOR AND THERE ARE THE OPPRESSED.

THERE'S THE OCCUPIER, AND THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE BEING OCCUPIED FOR DECADES LONG.

>> YOU'RE WORKING AS A PEACE AMBASSADOR NOW.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> AH, YES, FOR SO LONG, I WAS QUESTIONING WHAT PEACE MEANS TO ME, BECAUSE AS A CHILD, GROWING UP IN A REFUGEE CAMP, HONESTLY, ALL WHAT I WANTED WAS PEACE.

I DID NOT UNDERSTAND IN MY COMMUNITY WHERE -- I HATED THAT COMMUNITY GROWING UP, HONESTLY.

FOR SO LONG, I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND OR COMPREHEND WHY PEOPLE THERE WERE SO ANGRY ALL THE TIME OR RESORT TO VIOLENCE AS A WAY OF EXPRESSING THEMSELVES OR THEIR PAIN.

UNTIL I GREW OLDER AND UNDERSTOOD THAT THOSE PEOPLE, MY PEOPLE, ARE ACTUALLY OPPRESSED.

THEY WERE NEVER TAUGHT WAYS TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES IN A MORE HEALTHIER WAY.

AND THAT'S WHERE I FELT THAT THAT LED ME TO BE A PEACE AMBASSADOR.

TO TEACH PEOPLE HOW THEY CAN EXPRESS THEMSELVES IN A WAY WHERE THEIR PAIN COULD ACTUALLY BE USED AS A PEACEFUL WEAPON.

SO, I BECAME A PEACE AMBASSADOR AFTER PARTICIPATING IN THE ONE WORLD SUMMIT BACK IN MANCHESTER, AND I WAS QUESTIONING MYSELF, WHAT DOES PEACE MEAN TO ME, AFTER THIS SITUATION, THE GENOCIDE IN GAZA STARTED, AND I CAME TO THE REALIZE THAT PEACE IS SOMETHING I VALUE, THAT'S ONE OF MY TOP VALUES IN LIFE, BUT I ALSO UNDERSTOOD THAT WITH PEACE COMES JUSTICE.

IF I'M FIGHTING FOR PEACE, THAT MEANS THAT I'M FIGHTING FOR JUSTICE, AS WELL.

BECAUSE WHEN THERE'S NO JUSTICE, THERE'S NO PEACE.

SO, TODAY, THAT IS WHAT PEACE MEANS TO ME, PEACE MEANS FIGHTING AGAINST THE OCCUPATION, ENDING THE OCCUPATION, ONLY THEN WE CAN ACHIEVE PEACE.

>> HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW OF THE WORLD AND REALITY, RIGHT?

LIKE, THERE ARE ISRAELIS WANTING TO ENSURE THEIR SAFETY AND SECURITY, THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'RE LIVING NEXT TO A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS SPONSORED ACTS OF VIOLENCE AND TERROR AGAINST THEM SO, WHEN YOU, AS AN AMBASSADOR OF PEACE, BUMP INTO PIECE WHO HAVE THESE WORLD VIEWS THAT ARE SO OPPOSED TO HOW YOU SEE THINGS, HOW DO YOU APPROACH THEM?

HOW DO YOU COMMUNICATE AND HOW DO YOU SEE THEM AND HEAR THEM?

>> THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION, AND MAYBE HERE I CAN SHARE A LITTLE STORY THAT I HAD EXPERIENCED.

WHEN WE ESCAPED THE WAR IN UKRAINE, THE FIRST THING THAT I WANTED TO DO WAS TO GO TO AUSCHWITZ CAMP, BECAUSE MY GRANDFATHER USED TO TELL ME STORIES OF JEWS WHO WERE KILLED DURING THE HOLOCAUST.

I WENT TO THE AUSCHWITZ CAMP JUST SIX DAYS AFTER THE WAR IN UKRAINE STARTED, AND WHAT I SAW THERE REALLY TERRIFIED ME.

I SAW PICTURES OF CHILDREN HANGING ON THE WALL, AND I REALLY WONDERED, HOW DID THE WORLD ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN BACK THEN?

WHAT TYPE OF PROPAGANDA JUSTIFIED THE KILLING OF THOSE CHILDREN?

AND NOW I'M ALSO ASKING MYSELF, WHAT TYPE OF PROPAGANDA IS ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BE BLIND TO AN EXTENT THAT THE KILLING, THE SLAUGHTERING, THE MURDER OF CHILDREN TODAY IS SOMEHOW JUSTIFIED OR THE KILLING OF OVER 30,000 SOULS IS ALSO SOMEHOW JUSTIFIED?

AND I REMEMBER READING IN AUSCHWITZ A CODE THAT SAYS SOMETHING LIKE, WE NEED TO KNOW OUR HISTORY FOR IT NOT TO BE REPEATED, AND WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY IN THE WORLD?

WHERE IS HUMANITY?

WHY IS THE HISTORY KEEPS ON REPEATING ITSELF?

SO, I FEEL LIKE TODAY IN OUR POSITION AS YOUTH, FIGHTING AGAINST THE OCCUPATION, AGAINST INJUSTICES IN THE WORLD, WHAT WE WANT IS THE END OF THIS CYCLE OF VIOLENCE, ONCE AND FOR ALL AND FOR EVERYONE.

SO, I REMEMBER TALKING TO A JEWISH PERSON WHO ALSO BECAME MY FRIEND, AND SHE WAS SHARING ABOUT THOSE JEWS WHO ARE FIGHTING FOR FREE PALESTINE, TO WHOM I HAVE A HUGE RESPECT, BUT WE WERE ALSO TALKING TOGETHER, BECAUSE SHE HAS A DIFFERENT VIEW OF SEEING THINGS FROM MAYBE FROM THE ISRAELI PERSPECTIVE, THE ISRAELI PROPAGANDA, AND WE WERE TALKING, IT'S IMPORTANT TO TALK, I WAS TALKING TO HER, AND I TOLD HER, PLEASE, SEND ME EVERYTHING THAT YOU ARE SEEING.

I NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE WAY THAT THEY ARE THINKING.

AND I WAS SENDING TO HER HOW I AM SEEING THINGS, AND THE REALITY, I'M SHARING WITH HER THE TRUTH.

IT'S TIME TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE TRUTH, TO STOP IT FROM BEING REPEATED ONCE AND FOR ALL.

SO, THAT IS ONE WAY TO START THE CONVERSATION.

I RESPECT THOSE JEWS WHO ARE FIGHTING FOR A FREE PALESTINE, BUT WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND ARE THE ZIONISTS WHO ARE USING THE PAIN OF THE JEWS AS AN EXPLANATION OR JUSTIFICATION FOR WHAT THEY ARE DOING TODAY IN PALESTINE, IN GAZA, IN WEST BANK, NOT ONLY NOW, BUT FOR THE PAST 75 YEARS.

SO, YES, EVERYONE DESERVES -- EVERYONE CAN LIVE FREELY ON THAT LAND, ON EVERY LAND, BUT NOT WHEN IT COMES ON AN EXPENSE OF OTHER PEOPLE, NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF DISPLACING THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS FOR SO LONG.

>> YOU'VE SAID BEFORE THAT, I DID NOT CHOOSE MY STRUGGLES, BUT I GET TO CHOOSE HOW I PERCEIVE MY OWN STORY.

EXPLAIN THAT, IF YOU WILL.

>> WHAT I REALIZED, WHEN I CAME TO SWITZERLAND, I STARTED SHARING MY STORY, AND IN LEBANON, I DID, IN A WAY, VICTIMIZE MYSELF, BY BEING ASHAMED FOR THINGS I DID NOT CHOOSE.

FOR LYING TO MY FRIENDS THAT I COULD FROM A REFUGEE CAMP, FOR LYING TO MY FRIENDS THAT I LIVED IN A SINGLE ROOM WITH MY WHOLE FAMILY FOR THE FIRST 15 YEARS OF MY LIFE.

SO, I WAS REALLY ASHAMED, BUT WHEN I STARTED SHARING MY STORY, I REALIZED THAT THE WAY I TELL MY STORY TO MYSELF WILL HELP A DIRECT IMPACT ON THE WAY I WILL LEAD A LIFE FOR MYSELF.

SO, TODAY, I COULD SEE MYSELF AS A VICTIM, BUT I CHOOSE TO SEE MYSELF AS A WARRIOR, AND A FIGHTER, AND THIS IS WHAT I WANT OTHER REFUGEES, DISPLACED PEOPLE, MIGRANTS, TO SEE THAT WE SHOULD NOT HIDE BEHIND OUR REALITIES, BUT RATHER CELEBRATE OUR RESILIENCE.

WE SHOULD NO LONGER FEEL ASHAMED FOR THINGS THAT WE DID NOT CHOOSE, BUT CELEBRATION THE POWER AND THE STRENGTH AND THE LOVE THAT WE STILL HAVE, DESPITE ALL THE TRAUMAS, ALL THE STRUGGLES.

>> ZOYA EL MIARI, A PALESTINIAN AND UKRAINIAN REFUGEE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, WE REMEMBER A REPORTER WHO COVERED THAT REGION, DEMONSTRATING IMMENSE BRAVERY IN THE FACE OF WAR.

TERRY ANDERSON, THE AMERICAN JOURNALIST, WHO WAS HELD HOSTAGE BY HEZBOLLAH FOR ALMOST SEVEN YEARS, HAS DIED, AGED 76.

IT WAS A DECADE INTO THE LEBANESE SEVERAL WAR WHEN ANDERSON BECAME APART OF THE CONFLICT THAT HE WAS COVERING.

MARCH 16th, 1985, HE WAS DRAGGED INTO A CAR BY THREE GUNMEN UNDER THE RUBBLE-STREWN STREETS OF BEIRUT, IN BARELY LIT CELLS, HE BECAUSE THE LONGEST HELD WESTERN HOSTAGE.

I SPOKE TO ANDERSON AND HIS DAUGHTER BACK IN 2016, AFTER BOTH HAD SPENT YEARS TRYING TO FIND PEACE WITH THE PAST.

FOR CNN, YOU DID A DOCUMENTARY, I THINK IT WAS CALLED "IN THE LION'S DEN," AND YOU FOUND THE HEAD OF HEZBOLLAH, AND YOU ASKED HIM ABOUT THE KIDNAPPING, AND I'D LIKE TO PLAY THAT.

>> THE GROUP THAT TOOK HOSTAGES IN THE PAST DID NOT WANT TO START A REVOLUTION.

BUT THEY WANTED A MORE CIVILIZED REGIME.

THEY JUST WANTED TO PRESSURE THE UNITED STATES TO STAY THE EXECUTION OF SOME PRISONERS.

I'M NOT SAYING WHETHER THEIR METHODS WERE GOOD, RIGHT OR WRONG, THESE ACTIONS WERE SHORT-TERM WITH SHORT-TERM OBJECTIVES AND WE HOPE THEY WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> CAN YOU SAY FLATLY THAT THIS WAS WRONG OR A MISTAKE?

>> I CAN'T MAKE SUCH AN ABSOLUTE JUDGMENT.

>> ALL THESE YEARS LATER, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHAT HE TOLD YOU?

>> I THINK -- THESE PEOPLE CONVINCED THEMSELVES THAT THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT THEY HAD TO DO, AND THEY TOLD ME THAT MANY TIMES.

WE HAVE NOTHING AGAINST YOU, IT'S JUST THIS, WE HAVE TO DO THIS, BECAUSE HOW ELSE CAN WE FIGHT ISRAEL AND AMERICA?

>> HIS DAUGHTER WAS BORN SHORTLY AFTER HER FATHER'S ABDUCTION AND ONLY SIX WHEN HE WAS FINALLY RELEASED IN 1991, BOTH OF THEM TOLD ME ABOUT THE MOMENT THEY MET FOR THE FIRST TIME.

>> WE FLEW TO DAMASCUS, WHERE I IMMEDIATELY FELL ASLEEP ON A COUCH IN THE AMERICAN EMBASSY, AND MY FATHER WOKE ME UP AND IT WAS QUITE A, YOU KNOW, A DEFINING MOMENT IN MY LIFE.

>> IT WAS TREMENDOUSLY JOYOUS MOMENT, BUT I REALIZE NOW, AND I THINK YOU CAN SEE IT IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THESE PICTURES CAREFULLY, I WAS IN SOME FORM OF SHOCK.

IT HAD BEEN HOURS SINCE I WAS IN A CELL, CHAINED TO THE WAIL, AND SUDDENLY, I'M HEAR IN DAMASCUS AND MEETING MY DAUGHTER AND TALKING TO THE PRESIDENT AND THEN THE PRESS CONFERENCE, AND THE LIGHTS AND -- IT WAS JUST -- IT WAS QUITE AN IMPACT.

>> NOW, DESPITE THE DIFFICULTY OF READJUSTING TO LIFE AFTER CAPTIVITY, HIS DAUGHTER HAS SAID THAT HER FATHER FOUND, QUOTE, A COMFORTABLE PEACE IN RECENT YEARS AND WOULD WANT TO BE REMEMBERED FOR HIS HUMANITARIAN WORK, FOR MANY WORTHY CAUSES, INCLUDING THE PROTECTION OF JOURNALISTS.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.