April 24, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> TODAY, I'M ANNOUNCING THE BIGGEST STRENGTHENING OF OUR NATIONAL DEFENSE FOR A GENERATION.

>> WITH U.S. AID TO UKRAINE FINALLY ON ITS WAY, BRITAIN'S CONSERVATIVE PRIME MINISTER SAYS HE'S PUTTING THE ECONOMY ON A WAR FOOTING.

I ASK DAVID LAMMY, WHO COULD BE THE UK'S NEXT FOREIGN SECRETARY, ABOUT THE LABOR PARTY'S COMMITMENT.

>>> THEN -- >> I FELT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO WRITE ANYTHING ELSE.

IT WOULD SEEM ABSURD TO WRITE SOMETHING ELSE, UNTIL I HAD DEALT WITH THIS SUBJECT.

>> FROM SALMAN RUSHDIE, A DEEPLY PERSONAL ACCOUNT OF SURVIVING THE ASSASSIN'S BLADE.

IN "KNIFE: MEDITATIONS AFTER AN ATTEMPTED MURDER."

>>> AND WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS TO ANNE APPLEBAUM ABOUT THE DEFEAT OF THE PRO-PUTIN CAUCUS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AFTER SIX MONTHS OF REPUBLICAN OBSTRUCTION, TODAY, PRESIDENT BIDEN SIGNED A MASSIVE FOREIGN AID PACKAGE WITH NEARLY $61 BILLION EARMARKED FOR UKRAINE.

HERE HE IS SPEAKING AFTER HE SIGNED THE BILL INTO LAW.

>> IT'S GOING TO MAKE AMERICA SAFER, IT'S GOING TO MAKE THE WORLD SAFER, AND IT CONTINUES AMERICA'S LEADERSHIP IN THE WORLD, AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT.

GIVES VITAL SUPPORT TO AMERICA'S PARTNERS, SO THEY CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST THREATS TO THEIR SOVEREIGNTY.

AND, TO THE LIVES AND FREEDOM OF THEIR CITIZENS.

AND IT'S AN INVESTMENT IN OUR OWN SECURITY, BECAUSE WHEN OUR ALLIES ARE STRONGER, AND I WANT TO MAKE THIS POINT AGAIN AND AGAIN, WHEN OUR ALLIES ARE STRONGER, WE ARE STRONGER.

>> THE FIRST BILLION DOLLARS IN AID IS NOW ON ITS WAY, WITH WEAPONS AND EQUIPMENT UKRAINE DESPERATELY NEEDS.

BUT THE MONTHS OF INACTION HIGHLIGHTED UKRAINE'S VULNERABILITY TO WESTERN POLITICS, AS WELL AS A WORRYING SHORTFALL IN DEFENSE PRODUCTION ACROSS NATO.

THAT'S WHY THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER ANNOUNCED PLANS TO LIFT UK DEFENSE SPENDING BY ALMOST $100 BILLION, INVESTING 2.5% OF GDP BY 2030.

SUNAK SAYS THAT HE'S PUTTING BRITAIN ON, QUOTE, A WAR FOOTING, SAYING THE WORLD IS AT ITS MOST DANGEROUS SINCE THE COLD WAR.

BUT AFTER 14 OFTEN CHAOTIC YEARS OF CONSERVATIVE LEADERSHIP IN THE UK, SUNAK'S TORY PARTY COULD WELL BE TOSSED OUT BY VOTERS IN ELECTIONS LATER THIS YEAR.

LABOR MP DAVID LAMMY COULD BECOME THE COUNTRY'S NEXT FOREIGN SECRETARY.

HE'S MAKING A CASE FOR WHAT HE CALLS PROGRESSIVE REALISM.

DAVID LAMMY, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU ARE WHAT'S KNOWN HERE AS SHADOW FOREIGN SECRETARY.

SO, BEFORE I GET TO YOUR MANIFESTO, ESSENTIALLY, FOR FOREIGN POLICY, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT THE PRIME MINISTER HAS DONE.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, DO YOU AGREE WITH THIS?

>> 100%.

WE HAVE BEEN CLEAR RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING THAT WE MUST STAND WITH UKRAINE.

WE HAVEN'T SOUGHT TO BE PARTISAN AND DIVIDE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, AND, INDEED, I WENT WITH MY DEFENSE SHADOW JOHN HEALY TO WASHINGTON TO UNDERLINE THE CROSS-PARTY SUPPORT THAT WE'VE GOT HERE IN THE UK.

WE THINK THE 2.5% OF GDP, WE'VE ALSO SAID, WHEN THE FISCAL CLIMATE ALLOWS, WE'D HAVE A STRATEGIC DEFENSE REVIEW ON DAY ONE, IF WE WIN THE NEXT ELECTION, SO, IT MAY WELL BE SOONER THAN 2030, WE'LL SEE ONCE WE'VE HAD THAT REVIEW.

BUT 100%, WE MUST STAND WITH UKRAINE, WE'RE VERY CLOSE TO THE BALTIC STATES, POLAND, FINLAND, SWEDEN, AND OTHERS WHO ARE RIGHT AT THE EPICENTER OF THIS FIGHT, AND BIDEN IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, WHEN AMERICA IS STRONG AND ALLIES ARE STRONG, THE FREE WORLD IS STRONG.

IT'S FOR ALL OF THOSE REASONS WE STAND TOGETHER.

>> YOU KNOW, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TALK RECENTLY FROM EUROPE, FROM EXPERTS ON THIS IDEA OF THE EUROPEAN ECONOMY, AND THE WAR FOOTING.

WE'VE SEEN THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS ACTUALLY DONE HIS OWN ECONOMY A FAVOR WITH THIS INVASION, IF IT CAN BE PUT THAT WAY, BY TURNING THE WHOLE ECONOMY ONTO A WAR FOOTING.

WAR PRODUCTION.

EUROPE, WE'VE SEEN, HAVING PROMISED THE MOON AND THE SUN TO UKRAINE, SEEMS TO HAVE NOT ENOUGH IN ITS OWN STOCKS.

AND NOW, THEY'RE SAYING, PERHAPS EUROPE SHOULD ACTUALLY BE ON -- ITS ECONOMY SHOULD BECOME MORE OF A WAR ECONOMY.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S TRUE?

>> I'D AGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT.

I MEAN, HERE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FRONT LEANING IN OUR SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

WE SHARE AMERICA'S CONCERNS THAT THERE MUST BE BETTER DEFENSE SPENDING ACROSS THE EUROPEAN FAMILY OF NATIONS, AND THERE ARE MANY NATIONS STILL NOT MEETING 2%.

BUT IT IS OF CONCERN THAT SOUTH KOREA HAVE PROVIDED MORE SHELLS TO UKRAINE THAN THE WHOLE OF THE EUROPEAN FAMILY OF NATIONS COMBINED.

WE HAVE TO BE MUCH BETTER AT MANUFACTURING, MUNITIONS, RIGHT ACROSS THE BOARD.

THAT'S WHY THE BRITISH LABOR PARTY IS PROPOSING A UK EU DEFENSE AND SECURITY PACT.

PUTIN REMAINS A LONG-TERM THREAT.

>> SO, THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT, I MEAN, UKRAINE IS THE -- IS THE MATTER AT HAND, BUT IT'S ABOUT ALL OF YOUR SECURITY, IT'S NOT JUST SUPPORTING UKRAINE IN AN ABSTRACT, RIGHT?

EUROPEAN SECURITY IS THREATENED.

>> I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE A POSTURE THAT RECOGNIZES THAT PUTIN REMAINS A THREAT TO EUROPEAN SECURITY, NOT WITHSTANDING THE IMMEDIATE CONCERNS AROUND UKRAINE.

THE WORLD IS A VERY DANGEROUS PLACE, I SET THAT OUT IN MY ESSAY IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS JUST IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS.

WHEN WE LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IF THE MIDDLE EAST, WHEN WE LOOK AT WAR HERE IN EUROPE, WHEN WE LOOK AT THE CONCERNS IN THE INDO-PACIFIC, FOR ALL OF THOSE REASONS, EITHER YOU HAVE TO STAND CLEAR ON THE FREEDOMS WE ALL ENJOY IN THE DEMOCRATIC FAMILY OF NATIONS, AND BE REALLY, REALLY CLEAR THAT WE ARE IN A VERY ROUGH GEOPOLITICAL ENVIRONMENT.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE ESSAY YOU WROTE, AND, I MEAN, THE BASIC -- THE BASIC THESIS IS PROGRESSIVE REALISM.

I WANT TO QUOTE A BIT.

YOU SAY PROGRESSIVE REALISM ADVOCATES USING REALIST MEANS TO PURSUE PROGRESSIVE ENDS.

FOR THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT, THAT REQUIRES TOUGH-MINDED HONESTY ABOUT THE UNITED KINGDOM, THE BALANCE OF POWER, AND THE STATE OF THE WORLD, BUT INSTEAD OF USING THE LOGIC OF REALISM SOLELY TO ACCUMULATE POWER, PROGRESSIVE REALISM USES IT IN SERVICE OF JUST GOALS, FOR EXAMPLE, COUNTERING CLIMATE CHANGE, DEFENDING DEMOCRACY, ANDED A VASING THE WORLD'S ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

IT'S THE PURSUIT OF IDEALS WITHOUT DELUSIONS ABOUT WHAT'S ACHIEVABLE.

AND IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS, WHO IS OBVIOUSLY ON THE PROGRESSIVE WING OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, RESPONSIBLE, COMPREHENSIVE FOREIGN POLICY HE WROTE ABOUT, AS WELL.

TELL ME HOW THAT WORKS.

I MEAN, HOW -- HOW DO YOU MAKE PROGRESSIVE REALLY MATTER IN EVERYTHING, YOU KNOW, NOT JUST IN DEFENSE SPENDING?

>> WELL, LET ME START WITH THE REALIST.

AND THIS COMES OUT OF A TRADITION FROM MY OWN PARTY BEST PERSONIFIED BY ERNEST BEAVAN.

HE WAS SENT OUT TO LOOK INTO THE WORLD WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON, AND HE CAME BACK AND WAS PRETTY SOMBER.

THE LABOR PARTY BIRTHED NATO, BECAUSE IT COULD SEE AN ALLIANCE WAS SO IMPORTANT.

THE OTHER HARDHEADED RESPONSE WE HAD AT THAT TIME WAS A NUCLEAR DETERRENT.

THAT'S THE REALIST BIT.

TODAY, WE HAVE TO BE REALIST IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

IF YOU WANT PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IT MEANS WORKING WITH PARTNERS LIKE SAUDI ARABIA, QATAR AND OTHERS -- THEIR VALUES MAY NOT ENTIRELY BE ALIGNED WITH OWN OUR, BUT THAT IS HOW YOU BRING PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT PEACE HERE IN EUROPE, YOU HAVE TO BE PRETTY HARDHEADED ABOUT THE HARD DEFENSES THAT WE WILL NEED, IN TERMS OF DEFENSE SPENDING AND MUNITIONS, MANUFACTURING CAPABILITY.

AND, OF COURSE, IN RELATION TO CHINA, WE HAVE GOT TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THE SECURITY RISKS, THAT THE POSTURE OF THE COMMUNIST, THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY REPRESENTS, BUT ALSO CLEAR THAT WE HAVE TO COOPERATE WITH CHINA, A HUGE POWER, IN RELATION TO ISSUES LIKE CLIMATE, HEALTH, AND, OF COURSE, TRADE.

AS WE MOVE FORWARD.

IT'S COOPERATE AND CHALLENGE WHERE WE NEED TO.

>> I HEARD A MAJOR EUROPEAN ENTREPRENEUR SPEAK EARLIER THIS MONTHS, TALKING ABOUT HOW THE WEST HAD THOUGHT THEY WERE DOING THE RIGHT THING BY TRYING TO BRING IN RUSSIA, CHINA, INTO THE WTO, FOR INSTANCE, AND IF YOU REMEMBER, RUSSIA WAS BROUGHT IN TO A G7, WHICH BECAME A G-8, UNTIL IT INVADED UKRAINE.

HE'S SAYING, THEY DO NOT PLAY BY THE RULES OF YOUR GAME, AND IT'S INCUMBENT UPON EUROPE, THE UNITED STATES, TO FREEZE THEM OUT, IF THEY DON'T PLAY BY THE RULES OF THE GAME.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S -- THAT THAT'S REASONABLE?

>> I REMEMBER THE HUGE OPTIMISM WHEN THE BERLIN WALL CAME DOWN, WHEN MANDELA WALKED OUT OF PRISON, THE LATE '80s, EARLY '90s, AND I THINK OUR APPROACH AT THAT STAGE WAS THE CORRECT ONE.

BUT WE DID GET RATHER SLEEPY AT THE WHEEL.

I THINK THE WEST DID TAKE ITS EYE OFF THE BALL.

AND I THINK WHEN WE SAW PUTIN'S POSTURE CHANGE IN RELATION TO GEORGIA AND, INDEED, HIS AMBITIONS IN RELATION TO UKRAINE, BACK IN 2014, OF COURSE YOU COULD LOOK BACK IN HINDSIGHT AND SAY, THE WEST WAS A BIT ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL.

I THINK WE ARE CLEAR NOW, AND ACTUALLY, WHEN I'M IN WASHINGTON, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE PRETTY CLEAR, DESPITE -- DESPITE HOW LONG IT'S TAKEN TO GET THE FUNDING, AND HERE IN THE UK, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT ON FOREIGN POLICY THAT THESE ARE NOT PARTISAN ISSUES.

>> SO, CAN I ASK YOU THIS THEN, BECAUSE, AS YOU KNOW, THERE'S QUITE A LOT OF SORT OF, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WORRIED IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD ABOUT A SECOND TRUMP TERM, ON THESE ISSUES, ON THE IDEA OF DEFENDING DEMOCRACY, TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY, UKRAINE.

AND I'VE BEEN READING THAT THERE'S BEEN QUITE A FEW EUROPEAN LEADERS, INCLUDING THE CURRENT FOREIGN SECRETARY, THE PRIME MINISTER OF -- THE PRESIDENT OF POLAND, THE PRIME MINISTER OF HUNGARY, ALL WENT TO TALK TO TRUMP, AND THEY'RE COMING UP WITH THIS THEORY THAT INSTEAD OF PANICKING, TRY TO PERSUADE TRUMP, LIKE, OBVIOUSLY, THEY DID, OVER THE UKRAINE AID BILL, THAT ACTUALLY THIS IS IN AMERICA'S INTEREST, THAT ALL THIS AID AND COOPERATION MAKES, YOU KNOW, FOR AMERICAN JOBS, AS WELL.

DO YOU SEE THAT KIND OF POLICY REACH-OUT COALESCING AROUND WHAT MIGHT BE OR COULD BE ANOTHER TRUMP TERM?

>> I THINK THAT WE HERE IN EUROPE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE U.S. STATE AND ITS INSTITUTIONS ARE STRONG.

LET'S BE CLEAR THAT, YES, IF I LOOK BACK ON DONALD TRUMP'S PERIOD IN THE WHITE HOUSE, IT'S PRETTY NOISY, AND SOCIAL MEDIA, PARTICULARLY, IN THAT ERA, MADE IT VERY NOISY.

BUT ACTUALLY, DID TRUMP CONTINUE TO INVEST IN NATO?

TO THE TUNE OF 75%, YES, HE DID.

DID HE SEND THE FIRST JAVELINS TO UKRAINE?

YES, HE DID.

DID HE TALK ABOUT BURDEN SHARING ON DEFENSE ACROSS EUROPE, YES, HE DID, BUT THAT -- THAT CONVERSATION STARTED WITH PRESIDENT KENNEDY, THAT'S NOT UNIQUE TO DONALD TRUMP.

SO, I THINK WE SHOULD LOOK AT THE ACTIONS, AS WELL AS SOME OF THE RHETORIC.

LOOK, I WORRY A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE RHETORIC, I WORRY ABOUT THE RHETORIC IN MY OWN COUNTRY, BECAUSE, IN THE END, WHEN WESTERN DEMOCRACIES APPEAR DIVIDED, REALLY POLARIZED, THAT CAN ONLY BENEFIT OUR FUNDAMENTAL OPPONENTS, AND THOSE FUNDAMENTAL OPPONENTS ARE IN VERY AUTOCRATIC COUNTRIES, THEY'RE IN IRAN, THEY'RE IN RUSSIA, THEY'RE IN NORTH KOREA, AND SO, WE DO HAVE TO BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL ABOUT HOW WE MAINTAIN DEMOCRACY, HOW WE HAVE RICH AND DIFFERENT OPINIONS, BUT ON THE CRITICAL ISSUES, DO YOU STAND WITH FREEDOM OR NOT?

DO YOU STAND WITH ALL THAT WE'VE GAINED IN THE 20th CENTURY?

THE BENEFITS OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR, THE RULES BASED ORDER, THE RULE OF LAW, THE ECONOMIC SYSTEMS THAT WE'VE SET UP THAT, YES, OF COURSE, WE STILL HAVE POVERTY IN OUR COUNTRIES, BUT HAVE BROUGHT HUGE BENEFIT TO MANY.

WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR THOSE ARE THINGS WORTH FIGHTING FOR.

>> ON THE OTHER ISSUE, YOU BROUGHT IT UP, THE MIDDLE EAST, WHAT DOES PROGRESSIVE REALISM LOOK LIKE IN TRYING TO TACKLE THE FESTERING PROBLEM, YOU KNOW, THE 75 OR 56-YEAR-OLDEN PROBLEM, WHOEVER YOU WANT TO COUNT IT?

UP UNTIL NOW, IT'S BEEN EXCLUSIVELY BASED ON ISRAEL'S ABOUT FOR THE PALESTINIANS RIGHTS, BUT NO REAL SERIOUS MOVEMENT IN THAT AREA.

YOU'VE SEEN HOW YOUR PEOPLE, HOW THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, HOW PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD, YOUNG PEOPLE, VOTERS, ARE MAKING THEIR VOICES HEARD ON THIS.

THEY WANT A CHANGE.

WHAT WOULD A LABOR GOVERNMENT DO IN THE FUTURE TO TRY TO BRING A SOLUTION, A REAL SOLUTION, TO THIS TERRIBLE WAR?

>> WELL, LOOK, WE'VE GOT TO REBOOT THE CONTACT GROUP THAT SUPPORTS BOTH THOSE WHO WANT A PALESTINIAN STATE, AND, OF COURSE, ISRAEL.

BRING IN ARAB PARTNERS, WORK CLOSELY WITH ARAB PARTNERS ON THAT.

I'M REALLY CLEAR THAT ACTUALLY WE ARE PREPARED TO RECOGNIZE A PALESTINIAN STATE, WORKING WITH PARTNER COUNTRIES.

ISRAEL'S GOT TO BE SECURE.

AND FEEL SAFE.

AND WE'VE GOT TO RECOGNIZE THE TRAUMA THAT, I THINK, OCTOBER 7th HAS BROUGHT ABOUT, SO, FOR THAT REASON, WE DO NEED A CEASE-FIRE, WE NEED THOSE HOSTAGES TO COME OUT.

THE AID HAS GOT TO FLOW IN, AND WE'VE BEEN ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, WE MUST SUPPORT INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW, THE WORK OF THE ICJ, THE WORK OF THE ICC, BUT ON THAT TWO-STATE SOLUTION, THERE IS NO OTHER FUTURE.

AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN A ONE-STATE SOLUTION HAVE REALLY GOT TO EXPLAIN HOW THAT'S GOING TO WORK.

I SUSPECT WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN IS A NO-STATE SOLUTION, AND I THINK THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY IS LOOKING ON THIS PROBLEM AND SAYING, LOOK, THAT'S NOT GOING TO CUT IT.

ACTUALLY, WE DO HAVE TO GET TO PEACE.

AND THAT'S GOING TO TAKE A LOT OF HEAVY LIFTING BY ALL PARTNERS IN THE REGION, AND BEYOND.

>> HEAVY LIFTING IS WHAT IT TAKES, I MEAN, IT REALLY DOES TAKE A VERY, VERY FOCUSED DIPLOMATIC ROUTE, BUT CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT RWANDA?

THIS WEEK, THE RWANDA BILL ACTUALLY FINALLY PASSED AFTER MANY, MANY DEFEATS.

YOUR VIEWS ON THIS?

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, IMMIGRATION IS A BIG THING.

IS THIS -- WE'VE HAD SEVERAL PEOPLE NOW DIE IN THE CHANNEL TRYING TO GET HERE.

IS THIS GOING TO STOP THIS TERRIBLE SITUATION?

>> I THINK IN THESE TOUGH ECONOMIC TIMES, SPENDING HALF A BILLION POUNDS, SENDING 300 PEOPLE TO RWANDA?

REALLY?

WHEN ACTUALLY, THE PROBLEM WITH CRIMINAL GANGS, WORKING WITH PARTNER NATIONS, AND DEALING WITH THE PROCESSING OF THOSE WHO CLAIM ASYLUM ON BRITISH SHORES, SO, WE'RE REALLY CLEAR THAT WE WOULD REPLACE THIS SCHEME WITH ONE THAT REALLY, REALLY WORKS.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF HIT RICK, A LOT OF NOISE, BUT A HELL OF A LOT OF MONEY BLOWN, AND NOT ONE PERSON HAS GONE YET.

>> AND VERY BRIEFLY, WE'VE GOT 30 SECONDS, THE FRAUGHT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BRITAIN AND THE EU POST-BREXIT.

I KNOW YOU'RE NOT GOING TO REOPEN THAT DEBATE IF YOU GET INTO POWER, BUT WHAT IS A WAY THAT YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, MAKE BETTER RELATIONS?

>> WE'VE GOT TO GET BEYOND BREXIT.

THE EUROPEAN ARE OUR PARTNERS.

THAT'S WHY WE'RE PROPOSING A SECURITY PACT.

WE'VE GOT THE REVIEW OF OUR TRADE ARRANGEMENTS WITH THE EU THAT ARE REALLY IMPORTANT IN 2025.

I HOPE WE CAN GET BACK TO STRUCTURED DIALOGUE ABOUT THE ISSUES THAT MATTER, LIKE CLIMATE, LIKE ENERGY, LIKE CYBERSECURITY.

IN EUROPE.

BUT WE'VE GOT TO MOVE BEYOND THE DIVISIONS THAT WE'VE HAD IN THE PAST, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S GOOD TO SEE RISHI SUNAK GOING TO BERLIN AND POLAND.

IT'S SURPRISING, GIVEN HOW LONG HE'S BEEN PRIME MINISTER, THAT HE HASN'T BOTHERED TO GO BEFORE NOW.

>> ON THAT NOTE.

SHADOW FOREIGN SECRETARY DAVID LAMMY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, AT THE HEART OF THE FIGHT FOR DEMOCRATIC VALUES, OF COURSE, IS FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

YOU COULD CALL THE AUTHOR SALMAN RUSHDIE A WOUNDED VETERAN OF THE WAR FOR FREE SPEECH.

OVER 30 YEARS AGO, IRAN'S AYATOLLAH KHOMEINI CALLED FOR HIS ASSASSINATION OVER A BOOK HE HAD NEVER READ, BUT LABELED BLAST FEE MOUSE.

IN RECENT YEARS, THE THREATS SEEMED TO HAVE RECEDED, UNTIL AUGUST 2022, WHEN A YOUNG AMERICAN MAN WITH A KNIFE VICIOUSLY ATTACKED RUSHDIE IN CHAUTAUQUA, NEW YORK, AS HE WAS ABOUT TO SPEAK ON THE SAFETY OF WRITERS.

RUSHDIE CAME CLOSE TO DEATH, BUT HE SURVIVED.

HE IS SPEAKING ABOUT THE ATTACK IN AN EVENT AT NEW YORK LAST YEAR.

>> TERRORISM MUST NOT TERRORIZE US.

VIOLENCE MUST NOT DETER US.

AS THE OLD MARXISTS USED TO SAY, "THE STRUGGING GOES ON."

>> AND THE STRUGGLE GOES ON.

SALMAN RUSHDIE WRITING ABOUT THE ATTACK AND ABOUT THE LOVE THAT HELPED HIM TRIUMPH OVER DEATH, IN HIS NEW MEMOIR, "KNIFE: MEDITATIONS AFTER AN ATTEMPTED MURDER."

AND SALMAN RUSHDIE IS JOINING US FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT'S REALLY GOOD TO SEE YOU THERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AND SUCH KUDOS FOR THE BOOK.

CAN I JUST START BY ASKING HOW YOU ARE?

HOW ARE YOU FEELING?

>> I'M OKAY, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I THINK I'VE SURPRISED MYSELF BY HOW WELL I FEEL.

I THINK I'M PRETTY MUCH REPAIRED, THANK YOU.

>> AND, I MEAN, THE REPAIR TAKES UP A LOT OF THE BOOK.

IT TOOK A LOT OF TIME, AND WE CAN SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, YOUR EYE, ONE OF YOUR EYES IS -- YOU'VE LOST THE VISION AND YOU ARE WEARING, YOU KNOW, A DARK GLASS IN THAT EYE, AND WE KNOW THAT YOU WERE STABBED SO MANY TIMES.

YOU SAY IN THE BOOK, I SAW THIS MURDEROUS SHAPE RUSHING TOWARDS ME, SO, IT'S YOU, YOU THOUGHT, HERE YOU ARE.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU TO READ, IN FACT, ONE OF THE PASSAGES THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT, HOW SERIOUSLY YOU WERE WOUNDED, AND YOU IMAGINE IT THROUGH THE EYES OF THOSE AROUND YOU.

COULD YOU -- COULD YOU READ THAT PASSAGE?

>> YES.

THEY WERE LOOKING AT WHAT I COULDN'T SEE.

ME.

MY NECK AND CHEEK ON THE RIGHT SIDE HAD BEEN SLASHED OPEN BY THE KNIFE, AND THEY COULD SEE THAT BOTH SIDES OF THE CUT WERE BEING HELD TOGETHER BY METAL STAPLES.

THERE WAS A LONG GASH ALONG MY NECK UNDER MY CHIN, AND THAT WAS BEING HELD TOGETHER BY STAPLES, TOO.

THEY COULD SEE THAT THE WHOLE NECK AREA WAS GROTESQUELY SWOLLEN AND DARKLY BLOODIED.

AROUND THE WOUND WERE BANDAGES AND THE HAND WAS HELD STIFFLY IN A SPLINT.

WHEN THE NURSE CAME IN TO TEND TO MY RUINED EYE, ELIZA AND THE OTHERS SAW WHAT LOOKED LIKE A SCI-FI MOVIE SPECIAL EFFECT.

THE EYE, HUGELY DISTENDED, BULGING OUT OF ITS SOCKET, AND HANGING DOWN ON MY FACE LIKE A LARGE SOFT BOILED EGG.

THE SWELLING WAS SO BAD THAT THE DOCTORS DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IN THESE FIRST DAYS IF I STILL HAD AN EYELID.

>> I MEAN, IT'S SUCH A GRAPHIC DESCRIPTION, AND YOU REALLY, YOU KNOW, YOU DIDN'T -- ELIZA, YOUR WIFE, WOULDN'T LET THERE BE MIRRORS ANYWHERE NEAR YOU.

BUT YOU TALK ABOUT THE MIRACLE OF HOW THE LOVE OF YOUR FAMILY, THE SKILL OF THE SURGEONS, AND YOUR FRIENDS, BROUGHT YOU THROUGH, THAT YOU -- TECHNICALLY, MAYBE, SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ALIVE TODAY.

TALK ABOUT THE MIRACLE OF THE -- OF THE HEALING.

>> YEAH, I DO -- I SAY SOMEWHERE IN THE BOOK THAT I'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT -- THAT LOVE IS A FORCE, YOU KNOW, THAT -- AND WHEN IT'S UNLEASHED, IT CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A POWERFUL EFFECT IN THE REAL WORLD, IT CAN CHANGE THINGS.

AND I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT THE AMOUNT OF LOVE AND SUPPORT AND SOLIDARITY AND AFFECTION THAT I WAS SHOWN, FIRST BY ELIZA AND MY FAMILY, AND THEN BEYOND THAT, BY THE WIDER WORLD, PEOPLE I DON'T KNOW, HAD AN ENORMOUS IMPACT ON ME, AND HELPED ME HAVE THE STRENGTH TO RECOVER.

>> SALMAN, I FIND IT REALLY INTERESTING, BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN MIRACLES, AND YOU THEN -- >> YEAH.

>> YOU ALSO, YOU KNOW, ADMIT THAT YOUR RECOVERY IS MIRACULOUS.

YOU ALSO SAY YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN PREMONITIONS, AND YOU DID HAVE SOMETHING THAT WE MIGHT CALL A PREMONITION, OR A DREAM -- >> YEAH.

>> JUST BEFORE GOING TO CHAUTAUQUA, JUST BEFORE GOING TO MAKE THIS SPEECH.

WE'VE ASKED YOU TO READ JUST A LITTLE BIT OF THAT.

>> YEAH, I -- I HAD A NIGHTMARE.

TWO NIGHTS BEFORE I FLEW TO CHAUTAUQUA, I HAD A DREAM ABOUT BEING ATTACKED BY A MAN WITH A SPEAR.

A GLADIATOR IN A ROMAN ANTI-THEATER.

THERE WAS AN AUDIENCE ROARING FOR BLOOD.

I WAS ROLLING ABOUT ON THE GROUND, TRYING TO ESCAPE THE GLADIATOR'S DOWNWARD THUSS, AND SCREAMING, IT WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME I'D HAD SUCH A DREAM.

ON TWO EARLIER OCCASIONS, AS MY DREAM SELF ROLLED FRANTICALLY AROUND, MY ACTUAL SLEEPING SELF ALSO SCREAMING, THROUGH ITS BODY, MY BODY, OUT OF BED, AND I AWOKE AS I CRASHED PAINFULLY TO THE BEDROOM FLOOR.

>> SO, THOSE WERE TWO THOSE TIMES, THIS TIME, YOUR WIFE WOKE YOU UP AND YOU DIDN'T CRASH TO THE FLOOR, BUT YOU SAID TO HER -- >> YEAH.

>> I DON'T WANT TO GO.

HONESTLY, IT GIVES ME CHILLS, THAT.

>> YEAH, I REALLY -- I WAS VERY SPOOKED BY THE DREAM.

AND I -- THAT'S WHAT MY INITIAL RESPONSE WAS TO SAY, I DON'T WANT TO GO.

AND THEN I WOKE UP A BIT MORE, AND I THOUGHT, REALLY, WE DON'T RUN OUR LIVES ON THE BASIS OF WHETHER WE HAD A BAD DREAM OR NOT, AND IT'S JUST A DREAM.

AND OF COURSE I SHOULD GO.

BUT IN RETROSPECT, I WOULD HAVE DONE WELL TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE DREAM.

>> AND AGAIN, YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN PREMONITIONS OR FORESHADOWINGS, AS YOU WRITE, BUT WHY NOT?

>> WELL, BECAUSE IT'S -- YOU KNOW, YOU CAN RATIONALIZE THESE THINGS.

THE PLACE I WAS -- I KNEW THAT THE PLACE I WAS GOING TO SPEAK IN WAS CALLED AN ANTI-THEATER.

AND WE ALL KNOW FROM MOVIES WHAT HAPPENS IN ARENAS IN CLASSICAL TIMES, IS THIS KIND OF COMBAT, SO, AS I SAID, OVER THE YEARS, OVER THE YEARS, WORRYING ABOUT THE ATTACK ON "IS SATANIC VERSES," I HAD DREAMS EVERY SO OFTEN ABOUT BEING ATTACKED, AND I'D LEARNED TO JUST DEAL WITH THEM, THEY'RE JUST KIND OF A DRAMATIC DREAM, I DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE THEM.

THIS TIME -- THIS TIME, UNFORTUNATELY, IT CAME TRUE.

>> SALMAN, YOU -- YOU TALK ABOUT THE A, THE ASSAILANT, YOU DON'T USE HIS NAME.

AND I FOUND IT REALLY INTERESTING, IN THE BOOK, AND IN YOUR LIFE, YOU GRAPPLED WITH WHETHER, AT SOME POINT, I MEAN, QUITE EARLY ON, BEFORE YOU EVEN RECOVERED, YOU WERE GRAPPLING WITH WHETHER YOU SHOULD GO TO SEE HIM, CONFRONT HIM, TALK TO HIM, UNDERSTAND HIS MOTIVATION.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, I -- THAT WAS MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS, A KIND OF JOURNALISTIC IMPULSE TO GO AND SIT IN A ROOM WITH HIM AND SAY, OKAY, TELL ME WHY YOU DID IT.

AND FIRST OF ALL, IT SEEMED VERY IMPROBABLE THAT HIS LEGAL REPRESENTATION WOULD AGREE TO THAT.

ELIZA WAS VERY AGAINST IT.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, I READ THIS STORY OF SAMUEL BECKETT, WHO WAS ALSO STABBED IN PARIS, IN A STREET BY A PIMP, AND HE ACTUALLY DID GO TO THE COURT AND ASK THE MAN, WHY DID YOU DO IT?

AND ALL THE MAN SAID WAS, I DON'T KNOW, SIR, I'M SORRY.

AND I THOUGHT, WELL, THAT DOESN'T GET YOU VERY FAR, DOES IT?

THAT DOESN'T EXPLAIN ANYTHING.

AND I THOUGHT, MAYBE IF I DID MEET THIS GUY, I WOULD GET SOME BANALITY OF THAT KIND.

I DIDN'T THINK I WOULD GET REMORSE.

THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ANY SIGN OF REMOERS.

I THOUGHT I WOULD GET SOME CLICHE.

SO, POINTLESS.

AND I THOUGHT I WOULD DO BETTER TO USE THE SKILL I'VE GOT OF IMAGINATION AND STORYTELLING, TO TRY TO IMAGINE MYSELF INTO HIS HEAD, AND WORK OUT A KIND OF COHERENT PORTRAIT OF SOMEBODY THAT COULD HAVE DONE THIS.

>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING, THAT CHAPTER.

AND I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE -- I THINK WE KNOW, I THINK WE KNOW, BECAUSE THIS -- THE ASSAILANT GAVE AN INTERVIEW TO ONE OF THE NEW YORK TABLOIDS, THAT HE DIDN'T READ "THE SATANIC VERSES," HE DIDN'T SOUND LIKE HE HAD ANY MOTIVATION FOR THIS.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, HE SAID HE HAD READ TWO PAGES OF SOMETHING I'D WRITTEN AND HE'D SEEN A COUPLE OF YOUTUBE VIDEOS, AND THAT WAS ENOUGH FOR HIM TO TRY TO COMMIT MURDER.

I MEAN, IT SHOWS ME THAT IN INDOCTRINATION CAN BE A VERY POWERFUL FORCE, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE, LIKE I SUSPECT THIS YOUNG MAN OF BEING, WHO KIND OF NEED TO BE LED, WHO NEED TO BE GIVEN A DIRECTION IN LIFE, BECAUSE THEY DON'T FEEL THAT THEY HAVE IT.

AND SOMETHING PUT THE THOUGHT IN HIS HEAD -- WELL, CLEARLY, HE SAID HE WAS AN ADMIRER OF KHOMEINI, SO, CLEARLY HE WAS THINKING ALONG THOSE LINES.

AT SOME POINT, HE HEARD ABOUT ME GIVING A SPEECH AT CHAUTAUQUA AND DECIDED THAT I WAS HIS TARGET.

IT'S KIND OF A MYSTERY, WHY IT TURNED OUT TO BE ME.

>> YEAH.

AND YOU DIVIDE THE BOOK INTO TWO DISTINCT CHAPTERS.

THE CHAPTER OF HATE AND DEATH AND THE CHAPTER OF LIFE AND LOVE.

AND YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOUR WIFE, ABOUT YOUR FAMILY, BUT WRITING ABOUT HAPPINESS, I LIKE THIS LITTLE BIT, YOU SAID, "I'VE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED IN WRITING ABOUT HAPPINESS, IN LARGE PART BECAUSE IT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO DO."

AND YOU QUOTE A PREVIOUS WRITER FROM YESTERYEAR, SAYING THAT IT'S LIKE WRITING WITH WHITE INK ON A WHITE PAGE.

SO, DO YOU THINK YOU ACTUALLY SUCCEEDED IN WRITING ABOUT YOUR HAPPINESS IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE BOOK?

>> WELL, YOU TELL ME, CHRISTIANE.

I THINK I DID.

YEAH.

>> I THINK YOU DID.

>> IT'S FOR THE READER TO JUDGE.

>> I THINK YOU DID.

>> I THINK IT'S FOR THE READER TO JUDGE.

THANK YOU.

WE -- WE HAD -- ELIZA AND I HAVE BEEN TOGETHER, YOU KNOW, FOR 5 1/2 YEARS BEFORE THE ATTACK HAPPENED, AND WE HAD HAD A VERY HAPPY LIFE.

AND IT WAS AS IF WE WERE IN A LOVE STORY, AND THEN SOMEBODY TRIED TO TURN THAT INTO A MURDER STORY.

AND THEN WE WORKED VERY HARD TO TURN IT BACK INTO A LOVE STORY.

SO, IT'S -- I SAY IN THE BOOK THAT, YES, WE DID MANAGE, I THINK, TO RE-CONSTRUCT OUR HAPPINESS, BUT IT WASN'T EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT HAD BEEN.

THAT THERE'S A KIND OF SHADOW IN IT.

WHAT I DESCRIBE AS A WOUNDED HAPPINESS.

BUT HAPPINESS NEVERTHELESS.

>> AND YOU DO TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, A SECOND CHANCE OF -- AT LIFE.

YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT, YOU'RE LIVING IT RIGHT NOW.

AND I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR OWN, YOU KNOW, THE COUNTRY OF YOUR BIRTH, INDIA, WHERE YOU SET SO MANY OF YOUR PHENOMENAL BOOKS.

>> YES.

>> YOU WERE VERY UPSET DURING "THE SATANIC VERSES" CRISIS WHEN YOU DIDN'T GET MUCH LOVE, EVEN FROM YOUR HOMELAND, AND EVEN AFTER YOU WERE ATTACKED, YOU SAY THAT THERE WAS PRETTY MUCH SILENCE, YOU KNOW, FROM -- FROM YOUR HOMELAND.

>> SILENCE FROM OFFICIAL SOURCES.

>> YES.

>> I DID GET PLENTY OF SUPPORT FROM PEOPLE, READERS IN INDIA, AND WRITERS IN INDIA, THAT WAS -- I GOT A LOT OF THAT, BUT I WAS MAKING THE CONTRAST BETWEEN STATEMENTS MADE BY PRESIDENT BIDEN OR PRESIDENT MACRON OR BORIS JOHNSON, GOD BLESS HIM, BUT NOTHING FROM KIND OF INDIAN OFFICIAL SOURCE.

THAT WAS THE CONTRAST I WAS DRAWING.

>> OKAY, SO, I HAVE YOU TALKING ABOUT INDIAN OFFICIAL SOURCES, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF -- I MEAN, WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF AN INDIAN ELECTION RIGHT NOW, WHERE THE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, FREEDOM OF RELIGION, ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE IN GREAT PERIL, AND IT'S THE WORLD'S BIGGEST DEMOCRACY.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS ISSUE THERE NOW?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I'VE ALWAYS WAITED, HOPED FOR THE MOMENT OF THE BJP'S DEFEAT.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

I MEAN, IT'S -- INDIA'S SO BIG THAT AT THE STATE LEVEL, THERE ARE VERY POWERFUL REGIONAL PARTIES THAT VERY OFTEN DEFEAT THE BJP.

SO -- I THINK I'M RIGHT IN SAYING THAT THERE ISN'T A SINGLE BJP GOVERNMENT IN THE WHOLE OF SOUTH INDIA, IN THE STATES, BUT AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL, THERE HAS NOT YET BEEN AN ALLIANCE OF THOSE -- OF THOSE FORCES, WHICH COULD DEFEAT THE BJP AT A NATIONAL LEVEL.

SO, WE'LL SEE WHAT COMES TOGETHER IN THIS ELECTION, BUT YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW, I -- I DON'T THINK I'M THAT OPTIMISTIC, ACTUALLY.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT IN NEW YORK, WHERE YOU LIVE?

YOU CAN SEE CAMPUSES ROILING, YOU CAN SEE IT SPREADING ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, THE ISSUE OF FREE SPEECH IS BEING, YOU KNOW, REALLY CHALLENGED BY THE ISSUE OF SAFETY AND RESPECT.

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF STUDENTS TODAY GETTING THEMSELVES INTO THIS KIND OF SITUATION?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, STUDENTS HAVE -- I MEAN, STUDENTS DEMONSTRATED AGAINST THE VIETNAM WAR.

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME.

AND OF COURSE STUDENTS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT OF PROTEST, AND HISTORICALLY, OFTEN HAVE, AND THAT'S ITS RIGHT.

BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IS THAT VERY OFTEN, THAT RIGHT OF PROTEST IS SPILLING OVER INTO MENACING REMARKS AND BEHAVIOR, AND SO A LOT OF JEWISH STUDENTS FEEL UNSAFE ON CAMPUS.

AND IT GIVES THE ADMINISTRATORS AN ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE JOB.

WHATEVER THEY DO IS WRONG, REALLY.

AND THE TEMPERATURE IS SO HIGH RIGHT NOW, IT'S SO MUCH ANGER, THAT IT'S VERY HARD FOR ANYBODY TO LISTEN TO ANYBODY.

AND IT'S -- YOU KNOW, IT'S A VERY DARK TIME FOR THE -- FOR THE ACADEMY, I THINK, IN AMERICA.

UNIVERSITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE WRESTLING WITH THIS, AND MANY OF THEM, YOU KNOW, NOT DOING A PERFECT JOB.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, IN ONE PART OF THE BOOK, YOU REFER TO -- YOUR ATTACK WAS ON AUGUST 12th, AND YOU REFER TO AUGUST 11th, YOU CALLED IT THE LAST NIGHT OF INNOCENCE, I THINK, I'M PARAPHRASING.

BUT DO YOU FEEL NOW A YEAR AND MORE LATER THAT YOU HAVE LOST THAT INNOCENCE THAT YOU HAD THEN, HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO REBUILD IT, OR WILL YOU ALWAYS BE LOOKING OVER YOUR SHOULDER FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE?

>> NO, I THINK WE HAVE MANAGED TO RECONSTRUCT IT, BUT I ALSO HAVE TO BE SENSIBLE NOW.

AND I HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES AND OCCASIONS IN WHICH IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT THERE SHOULD BE PRECAUTIONS TAKEN, AND WE'VE TAKEN STEPS TO MAKE SURE THAT HAPPENS, SO, I'M -- I CAN'T BE AS HAPPY GO LUCKY AS I WAS FOR THE PREVIOUS 20 ODD YEARS.

>> AND WHAT IS YOUR NEXT PROJECT?

AND DID YOU FEEL YOU HAD TO WRITE THIS BOOK BEFORE YOU COULD DO ANOTHER NOVEL?

>> YEAH.

YEAH, I MEAN, I JUST THOUGHT IT WAS THE HUGE SUBJECT SITTING IN MY FACE AND I COULDN'T IGNORE IT.

NOW, I HAVE TO FIND THE NEXT NOVEL, AND, I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS YET.

YOU KNOW?

I FEEL MY LAST NOVEL, "VICTORY CITY," ONLY CAME OUT A YEAR AND A BIT AGO, AND THERE'S THIS BOOK, SO, I'VE HAD TWO BOOKS IN VERY QUICK SUCCESSION.

I THINK MAYBE I JUST NEED A MOMENT TO REGROUP AND ALLOW THE IMAGINATION, THE JUICES TO FILL UP AGAIN AND START FLOWING AGAIN.

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE NEXT BOOK IS.

>> SALMAN, DID YOU FEEL, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY YOU WERE, YOU KNOW, MORTALLY WOUNDED, JUST ABOUT, YOU TOOK A HUGE NUMBER OF WEEKS AND MONTHS TO RECOVER.

AND CLEARLY, YOU WERE IN NO SHAPE TO WRITE, BUT DID YOU FEEL EVER THAT -- THAT IT HAD -- IT HAD DESTROYED ALSO -- BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE KNIFE IS ALSO, YOU SAY, WORLDWORDS.

THERE ARE MANY INTERPRETATIONS TO THE TITLE THAT YOU CHOSE FOR YOUR BOOK.

DID YOU FEEL MAYBE THAT HAD BEEN TAKEN FROM YOU?

>> FOR AWHILE, I DID.

I MEAN, THERE WAS -- I MEAN, I GUESS SIX MONTHS OR SO, WHEN I COULDN'T EVEN IMAGINE SITTING AT A DESK AND WRITING.

BUT THEN, YOU KNOW, WHAT ELSE WOULD I DO?

IT'S WHAT I DO.

AND THE JUICES BEGAN TO FLOW AGAIN, AND THAT'S WHERE THIS BOOK CAME FROM.

SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE STUCK WITH ME, YOU MIGHT HAVE TO PUT UP WITH SOME MORE BOOKS.

>> WELL, SALMAN RUSHDIE, YOU KNOW, WE CAN DEFINITELY AFFORD TO STICK WITH YOU AFTER ALL OF THIS.

BUT AGAIN, YOU MENTIONED "VICTORY CITY," AND JUST MY LAST QUESTION, YOU WERE REALLY PLEASED THAT IT GOT SO MUCH GOOD WILL, OBVIOUSLY, IN MANY REVIEWS, BUT ESPECIALLY IN INDIA AND IN SOUTHEAST ASIA.

IT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST IN A LONG TIME OF YOURS.

TELL ME HOW THAT MADE YOU FEEL, BECAUSE I THINK YOU FELT REJECTED BY THE LAND OF YOUR BIRTH FOR SO MANY YEARS.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, ON AND OFF, I HAVE, AND IT BECAME DIFFICULT FOR ME TO GO FOR A LONG TIME, AND THAT WAS VERY SAD.

BUT I DO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, "VICTORY CITY" HAD THE MOST WONDERFUL REACTION IN INDIA, AND PROBABLY THE BEST REACTION TO ANY OF MY BOOKS, MAYBE ALL THE WAY BACK TO "MIDNIGHT'S CHILDREN."

AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S A HISTORY NOVEL, IT'S A WAY OF SAYING, THIS IS WHO WE WERE, THIS IS WHAT WE WERE LIKE, THIS IS WHAT WE STILL ARE.

AND SO, THE RESPONSE IN INDIA IS UNUSUALLY IMPORTANT TO ME, ALWAYS HAS BEEN.

>> YEAH.

IT'S NICE TO END THERE.

SALMAN RUSHDIE, REALLY GOOD TO SEE YOU, CONGRATULATIONS ON "KNIFE."

AND BEING BACK IN THE SADDLE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> MORE NOW ON OUR TOP STORY.

UKRAINIANS ARE BREATHING A SIGH OF RELIEF, AS THE SENATE PASSES ITS LONG-AWAITED AID BILL.

HALLELUJAH WAS THE RESPONSE FROM THEIR FOREIGN MINISTER, DYMTRO KULEBA.

HE SAID THAT TO "THE GUARDIAN."

BUT HE WARNED THAT RUSSIA IS OUTSHELLING UKRAINE 10-1 AND QUOTE NO SINGLE PACKAGE CAN STOP THE RUSSIANS.

ALL THOR AND STAFF WRITER AT THE ATLANTIC ANNE APPLEBAUM'S LATEST PIECE IS CALLED "THE GOP'S PRO RUSSIA CAUCUS LOST, NOW UKRAINE HAS TO WIN."

SHE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HOW.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

ANNE APPLE BALM, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AFTER A TORTUROUS FEW MONTHS, THE HOUSE HAS PASSED AND THEN LAST NIGHT THE SENATE PASSED A UKRAINE AID BILL, THE PRESIDENT'S SIGNING IT.

AND YOU BEGIN YOUR PIECE ABOUT IT WITH THIS PHRASE, IT'S NOT TOO LATE, BECAUSE IT'S NEVER TOO LATE.

SORT OF AS A HISTORIAN, I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THAT, IN HISTORY, WE OFTEN HAVE THINGS THAT ARE TOO LITTLE TOO LATE.

HOW ARE YOU SO CONFIDENT THAT THIS ISN'T A LITTLE BIT TOO LATE?

>> WELL, I THINK THE POINT IS THAT, OF COURSE, IT'S TOO LATE.

IF THE UKRAINIANS HAD THIS MONEY AND HAD THE WEAPONS, MORE IMPORTANTLY, MONTHS AGO, THEN THERE ARE UKRAINIAN CITIES THAT WOULDN'T HAVE LOST THEIR POWER GENERATION.

THERE WERE UKRAINIANS THAT WOULD STILL BE ALIVE, SOLDIERS STILL FIGHTING IN TERRITORY NOT LOST.

BUT BY WRITING THAT, I MEANT TO SAY THAT THE, YOU KNOW, THE FUTURE OF UKRAINE WILL -- WILL GO ON BEING IN PLAY, NO MATTER WHAT WE DO, IN OTHER WORDS, THEY CAN SUFFER DEFEATS, OR THEY COULD LOSE LAND, BUT THEY -- THEY AREN'T GOING TO STOP FIGHTING, AND SO HAVING THE -- HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE UNITED STATES AND HAVING THE CONFIDENCE OF BEING PART OF A LARGER ALLIANCE, IT CAN HELP, STILL HELP TURN THE WAR AROUND.

AND CAN STILL HELP THEM ACHIEVE VICTORY, SO -- I MEANT BY SAYING THAT, THAT THERE'S -- THERE'S ALWAYS A SECOND CHANCE, AND I THINK THEY'VE GOT IT NOW.

>> AND YOU SAY THAT ONCE U.S. MONEY STARTS FLOWING AGAIN, THE DYNAMICS OF THE WAR WILL CHANGE.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK THE DYNAMICS, HOW THEY WILL CHANGE?

>> SO, OF COURSE THERE'S A MILITARY DYNAMIC, SO, WITH MORE AMMUNITION AND WITH MORE WEAPONS, UKRAINIANS WON'T LOSE TERRITORY, THEY'LL BE ABLE TO PROTECT THEIR CITIES.

BUT THERE'S ALSO A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT PSYCHOLOGICAL DYNAMIC, IN OTHER WORDS, THE RUSSIANS STILL THINK THAT THEY'RE GOING TO WIN BY OUTLASTING US.

THAT THEY WILL JUST KEEP FIGHTING UNTIL WE GET TIRED, AND PART OF THEIR -- PART OF THEIR WAR EFFORT HAD BEEN A HUGE PROPAGANDA EFFORT TO CONVINCE AMERICANS AND EUROPEAN THAT THE UKRAINIANS CAN'T DO IT, THAT THEY'RE WEAK, THAT THEY'RE CORRUPT, THAT THEY'RE DIVIDED, AND TO PERSUADE US NOT TO HELP THEM.

AND OF COURSE, FOR THEM, THAT'S THE EASIEST WAY TO WIN, IS TO HAVE -- IS HAVE UKRAINE'S ALLIES GIVE UP.

AND SO, BY TAKING THIS DECISION, BY ALOFTS THIS AMOUNT OF MONEY AND THIS AMOUNT OF WEAPONRY, WE CHANGE THAT PSYCHOLOGICAL DYNAMIC.

SO, NOW THE RUSSIANS AREN'T ON -- DON'T THINK OF THEMSELVES ON A PATH TO WIN EASILY, THEY NOW KNOW THAT THERE'S THIS -- THERE'S RENEWED WESTERN SUPPORT, THAT THERE IS RENEWED WESTERN EFFORT BEHIND UKRAINE.

AND SO, THIS IS A -- YOU KNOW, LIKE ALL WARS, THIS WAR HAS AN IMPORTANT PSYCHOLOGICAL ELEMENT, AND THE PASSING OF THIS BILL MEANS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT YET SO DIVIDED AND NOT YET SO ISOLATIONIST, AND NOT YET SO EASILY PERSUADED BY RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA, YOU KNOW, AS TO -- AS TO ALLOW THE RUSSIANS TO WIN WITHOUT A STRUGGLE, AND SO, THE RUSSIANS ARE NOW ON A MUCH STEEPER UPHILL PATH.

>> THIS CHANGE IN THE PSYCHOLOGICAL DYNAMIC, RUSSIA REALIZES, WE'RE NOT SO DIVIDED, THAT WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT FOR AWHILE UKRAINE, DOES THAT ALSO CHANGE THE DIPLOMATIC DYNAMIC, OR IS THERE ANY DIPLOMATIC DYNAMIC TO BE HAD?

>> SO, THERE IS A DIPLOMATIC DYNAMIC IN THAT OF COURSE THERE ARE BEHIND THE SCENES CONVERSATIONS.

AND, OF COURSE, PEOPLE ARE CONSTANTLY TESTING THE WATERS TO SEE WHETHER -- TO SEE WHETHER THE RUSSIANS ARE WILLING TO GIVE UP, RETREAT, OR EVEN JUST STOP FIGHTING.

UNTIL NOW, IT'S BEEN PRETTY CLEAR THAT PUTIN HAS NOT WANTED TO STOP.

AND THIS IS WHY ALL THESE CONVERSATIONS AND COMMENTS ABOUT HOW UKRAINIANS SHOULD -- THEY SHOULD CHANGE -- EXCHANGE LAND FOR PEACE, OR THEY SHOULD NEGOTIATE, OR THEY SHOULD STOP, HAVE REALLY BEEN A BIT POINTLESS, BECAUSE UNTIL THE RUSSIANS DECIDE TO STOP FIGHTING, UNTIL THEY DECIDE THEY DON'T WANT TO CONTINUE THE WAR, THEN THE WAR WON'T END.

IN OTHER WORDS, IN ORDER TO NEGOTIATE, YOU NEED TO HAVE SOMEONE TO NEGOTIATE WITH.

AND UNTIL NOW, THERE'S NO ONE TO NEGOTIATE WITH, BECAUSE PUTIN'S GOAL IN THIS WAR IS NOT JUST TERRITORY, HE DOESN'T NEED ANYMORE LAND, RUSSIA'S VERY LARGE AS IT IS.

HIS GOAL HAS BEEN TO ELIMINATE UKRAINE HAS A STATE, TO MAKE IT UNVIABLE, TO PERHAPS WIPE IT ENTIRELY OFF THE MAP.

CERTAINLY TO CAPTURE AND CONTROL ITS MAJOR CITIES.

PERHAPS TO HAVE A KIND OF RUSSIAN-CONTROLLED GOVERNMENT IN UKRAINE.

BUT IN ANY CASE, TO HAVE IT CEASE TO EXIST AS AN INDEPENDENT ENTITY.

AND IT'S ONLY WHEN THEY GIVE UP THAT GOAL, WHEN THEY SAY, RIGHT, WE'RE NOT GOING TO ELIMINATE UKRAINE FROM THE MAP, IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, THEIR ALLIANCES ARE TOO POWERFUL, THEIR WILL IS TOO STRONG, THEIR MILITARY IS TOO -- WHATEVER IS THE REASON, OR WE'RE PAYING TOO HIGH A PRICE, THEN THEY WILL STOP.

AND SO, YES, THIS DECISION, I WOULD THINK, PUSHES US FARTHER ALONG THAT PATH.

>> AND SO, DO YOU THINK THERE'S A POSSIBILITY OF A MAJOR NEW DIPLOMATIC INITIATIVE?

YOU KNOW RUSSIA PRETTY WELL.

OR DO YOU THINK THAT'S JUST HOPELESS RIGHT NOW?

>> I MEAN, EVENTUALLY, THERE WILL BE A DIPLOMATIC INITIATIVE, EVENTUALLY THE WAR WILL END WITH A NEGOTIATION OF SOME KIND.

YOU KNOW, MY UNDERSTANDING RIGHT NOW IS THAT THE RUSSIANS ARE WAITING FOR THE RESULTS OF THE U.S. ELECTION.

THEY'RE HOPING THAT IF DONALD TRUMP BECOMES PRESIDENT A SECOND TIME, THAT HE WILL ABANDON UKRAINE AND, YOU KNOW, PERHAPS PARTITION UKRAINE OR -- THERE ARE MANY SCENARIOS OUT THERE.

>> BUT DON'T YOU THINK THAT HAS SOME VALIDITY TO IT, THAT CERTAINLY TRUMP WOULD DO THAT, AND IF YOU WERE RUSSIA, WOULDN'T YOU WAIT AND SEE?

>> SO, YES, I THINK THERE'S VALIDITY TO IT, AND TRUMP HAS CERTAINLY GIVEN THAT IMPRESSION AND PEOPLE AROUND HIM ARE ALSO GIVING THAT IMPRESSION AND THEY ARE EVEN OPEN CONVERSATIONS ABOUT IT THAT I'VE HEARD.

SO, YES, OF COURSE THAT'S WHY THE RUSSIANS ARE WAITING.

YOU KNOW, BY -- THE VERY DELAY OF THE AID, THE DELAY OF THIS BILL THAT HAS JUST BEEN PASSED, THE DELAY WAS -- AS MOST PEOPLE UNDERSTAND IT, WAS ESSENTIALLY CAUSED BY TRUMP.

IT WAS TRUMP'S PRESSURE ON THE REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE AND ON REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS, THAT -- YOU KNOW, THAT LED TO THE DELAY, SO TRUMP IS ALREADY SEEN AS PLAYING A ROLE IN THIS CONVERSATION.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK TRUMP DIDN'T STEP IN WHEN SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON PUT IT UP?

HE COULD HAVE SAID SOMETHING IN THE PAST WEEK OR TWO AND HE LET IT PASS.

>> TRUMP APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN CONVINCED THAT IT WOULD BE A BAD IDEA FOR UKRAINE TO LOSE, THAT HE MIGHT BE BLAMED FOR IT, AND FOR REASONS -- I DON'T HAVE -- YOU KNOW, INSIGHT INTO TRUMP'S BRAIN, MAYBE HE'S DISTRACTED BY OTHER THINGS AT THE MOMENT, BUT HE APPEARS TO HAVE DECIDED THAT IT WAS OKAY.

AND THAT MAY HAVE BEEN PART OF MIKE JOHNSON'S DECISION.

>> EARLIER THIS MONTH, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY CAMERON, I THINK THE POLISH PRESIDENT, ALL MET WITH DONALD TRUMP, YOUR HUSBAND IS THE FOREIGN MINISTER OF POLAND.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK THE GENERAL SIGNIFICANCE OF THESE MEETINGS ARE?

ARE THEY TRYING TO PREPARE FOR THE POSSIBLE SECOND TERM OF -- NEXT TERM OF A TRUMP PRESIDENCY?

>> NO.

SO, IN THE CASE OF BOTH CAMERON AND THE POLISH PRESIDENT, WHO IS, BY THE WAY, HE'S FROM A DIFFERENT PART OF POLISH POLITICS THAN MY HUSBAND, BUT THAT'S JUST SO YOU KNOW, BUT THE -- THE POINT OF THOSE MEETINGS WAS TO TALK TO TRUMP ABOUT UKRAINE, IN ORDER TO PERSUADE HIM TO ALLOW MIKE JOHNSON TO PUT THIS BILL ON THE FLOOR.

AND THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL OTHER MEETINGS, SIMILAR, THAT I'M AWARE OF, AS WELL.

SO, I THINK THESE ARE MORE ABOUT THAT.

I MEAN, THAT -- THAT WE ARE IN A STRANGE POSITION, WHERE THE PERSON WHO IS THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE AND PERHAPS THE NEXT PRESIDENT IS PLAYING A CLEAR ROLE IN U.S. FOREIGN POLICY, YOU KNOW, IS -- IS CLEAR.

I DON'T THINK WE'VE EVER BEEN IN A POSITION BEFORE WHERE AN OUT OF POWER FORMER PRESIDENT HAS SO MUCH INFLUENCE OVER CONGRESS AND OVER ITS DECISION.

AND THEY'RE TRYING TO CONVINCE HIM TO -- IN THE CASE OF THOSE TWO LEADERS, THEY'RE TRYING TO CONVINCE HIM TO, YOU KNOW, TO ALLOW WEAPONS TO GO TO UKRAINE.

>> YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE REFER TO THE GOP HOLDOUTS, PEOPLE LIKE MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, AS ULTRACONSERVATIVES.

I HAVE NEVER QUITE UNDERSTOOD THAT DESIGNATION.

IN YOUR PIECE, YOU CALL THEM THE PRO-RUSSIAN PART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, OR PRO-KREMLIN, PRO-MOSCOW.

YOU KNOW, WHY -- WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S A BETTER DESCRIPTION?

>> SO, CONSERVATIVE IMPLIES THAT YOU'RE CONSERVING SOMETHING, THAT YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, IT IMPLIES THAT YOU ARE CONSERVING SOME KIND OF AMERICAN TRADITION.

I DON'T SEE THAT ADVOCATING ON BEHALF OF A FOREIGN DICTATORSHIP IS CONSERVATIVE.

IT SEEMS RADICAL TO ME, OR EXTREMIST.

OR, AS I WROTE, I MEAN, YOU CAN CALL IT PRO-RUSSIAN, WHICH IS WHAT IT IS.

MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE COMES TO CONGRESS AND PRODUCES PHOTOGRAPHS AND MATERIAL THAT COME DIRECTLY FROM RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA SITES, AND SHE'S DESCRIBING UKRAINIANS AS NAZIS AND SO ON.

SHE ACTUALLY USES THE LANGUAGE OF RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA, YOU KNOW, IN CONGRESS, IN PUBLIC.

AND THAT'S -- THAT DOESN'T SEEM VERY CONSERVATIVE TO ME.

IT SEEMS EXTREMIST AND PRO-RUSSIAN.

SO, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT TO POINT TO THIS -- THIS MISUSE OF LANGUAGE, THIS MISUSE OF THE WORD CONSERVATIVE, TO DESCRIBE HER, AND THE OTHERS IN THAT GROUP, WHO ARE -- WHO ARE NOW RADICALLY PRO-RUSSIAN.

>> LET ME READ YOU A QUOTE FROM YOUR PIECE, YOU SAY, "ANYONE WHO SEEKS TO MANIPULATE THE FOREIGN POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES, WHETHER IT BE THE TIN POT AUTOCRAT OR THE COMMUNIST PARTY IN CHINA, NOW KNOWS THAT A CAREFULLY DESIGNED PROPAGANDA CAMPAIGN, WHEN TARGETED AT THE RIGHT PEOPLE, CAN SUCCEED."

YOU YOU'RE AN EXPERT IN INFORMATION, MISINFORMATION, PROPAGANDA TARGETING.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

DO YOU THINK THAT THE PRO-RUSSIAN REPUBLICANS WERE MANIPULATED BY PROPAGANDA CAMPAIGNS?

>> IT IS CERTAINLY THE CASE THAT RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA WAS USED BY MEMBERS OF THE U.S. CONGRESS IN THEIR PUBLIC DEBATES AND EVEN IN PRIVATE CONVERSATIONS.

REPUBLICAN SENATOR THOM TILLIS HAS DESCRIBED HOW HE HEARD HIS COLLEAGUES IN DEBATE ABOUT UKRAINE USING A STORY THAT WE KNOW IS FAKE, THIS IS A STORY THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY OWNS TWO YACHTS.

THERE WAS A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE YACHT CIRCULATING ON THE INTERNET AND THE YACHTS ACTUAL BY BELONG TO OTHER PEOPLE.

THIS WAS AN EASILY DISPROVED FAKE.

YET, THERE WERE REPUBLICAN SENATORS SAYING, WE SHOULDN'T GIVE THIS AID MONEY TO UKRAINE, BUY SOME MORE YACHTS.

THIS IS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

THIS MEANS THAT THERE'S A DIRECT PATH FROM AN INVENTED STORY TO THE U.S. CONGRESS, PROBABLY VIA, YOU KNOW, SOME KIND OF INTERNET ECHO CHAMBER IN WHICH RUSSIAN AND FAR RIGHT PROPAGANDA MIX.

BUT IT IS NOW POSSIBLE TO GET THOSE IDEAS INTO THE HEADS OF U.S. CONGRESSPEOPLE.

THEY AREN'T RESISTANT TO IT IN A WAY THEY MIGHT ONCE HAVE BEEN.

AND THIS BY ITSELF WAS AN INCREDIBLE SUCCESS.

THE RUSSIANS AT LEAST MANAGED TO DELAY THE AID PACKAGE FOR A YEAR BY USING -- BY TARGETING THIS KIND OF -- THESE KINDS OF LIES, BY CREATING A CAMPAIGN AROUND THE HOPELESSNESS OF THE WAR, AROUND THE POINTLESSNESS OF SUPPORTING UKRAINE, AND OF COURSE, THERE STILL ARE SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN USING THAT LANGUAGE, BUT THEY DID IT SUCCESSFULLY, AND IT HAS TO BE THE CASE THAT OTHERS WILL LOOK AT IT AND SAY, OH, IT'S THAT EASY, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN -- IF YOU CAN GET CONGRESS TO GO ALONG WITH YOUR MADE-UP STORIES, THEN IT'S CERTAINLY WORTH TRYING.

SOMETIMES THE RUSSIAN EFFORTS TO -- TO MANIPULATE CONVERSATIONS, IN THE U.S. OR ANYWHERE ELSE, CAN BE A LITTLE NUTTY.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE THEY THROW PA GETTY AT THE WALL AND THEY JUST SEE WHAT STICKS.

BUT THIS WAS A REALLY CAREFULLY TARGETED, CAREFUL CAMPAIGN, AND AS I SAID, MAKE IT LOOK HOPELESS.

UKRAINE CAN'T WIN.

UKRAINE CAN'T DEMOCRATIC.

UKRAINIANS ARE NAZIS.

ALL OF THAT WAS EVENTUALLY USED BY ACTUAL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS IN THEIR PUBLIC STATEMENTS, SO, WE KNOW THAT IT GOT THROUGH TO THEM.

>> WELL, LET ME PUSH BACK ON THAT, JUST A LITTLE BIT, BECAUSE, AMONG THE PEOPLE THAT USE THAT IN THE SENATE, AND YOU'VE BEEN VERY CRITICAL OF HIM FOR DOING IT, IS OHIO SENATOR J.D.

VANCE, AND HE TALKS ABOUT THE FACT THAT UKRAINE NEEDS MORE SOLDIERS THAN IT CAN FIELD, EVEN IF IT HAS DRACONIAN CONSCRIPTION METHODS, AND THAT UKRAINE JUST CAN'T PREVAIL, EVEN WITH THE NEW MATERIAL.

THAT SEEMS TO BE A SINCERE BELIEF, WHICH HE BACKS UP WITH A WHOLE LOT OF ARGUMENTS.

DO YOU THINK HE'S JUST BEEN MANIPULATED, OR DO YOU THINK HE'S JUST WRONG?

>> SO, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT J.D.

VANCE'S GOALS ARE, OR WHY HE'S DOING WHAT HE'S DOING, BUT HE -- HE DOES -- HE HIMSELF MANIPULATES FACTS.

HE TALKS ABOUT RUSSIAN -- THE RUSSIAN AMMUNITION OUTNUMBERING THE AMOUNT OF AMMUNITION UKRAINIANS HAVE AS 5 TO 1.

THAT HAPPENED BECAUSE WE STOPPED GIVING THE UKRAINIANS AMMUNITION, IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KNOW, HE'S -- HE USES THIS NARRATIVE OF INEVITABLE DEFEAT BY CITING THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, USING THE FACT THAT WE WEREN'T HELPING THEM.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE UKRAINIANS THEMSELVES, YOU KNOW, ARE REDOING THEIR -- THEIR SYSTEM OF RECRUITMENT, THEY ARE RETRAINING THEIR SOLDIERS, AND THEY'VE PROVEN THAT THEY CAN EVICT RUSSIANS FROM UKRAINIAN TERRITORY THAT THEY OCCUPY.

THEY HAVE ALREADY PUSHED THE RUSSIANS OUT OF 50% OF THE TERRITORY THAT WAS OCCUPIED AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE WAR.

SO, THEY'VE SHOWN THEY CAN ACHIEVE THINGS.

AND FOR VANCE TO SAY IT CAN'T BE DONE AND THEREFORE WE MIGHT AS WELL GIVE UP IS -- IS GENUINELY GIVING -- IT'S GIVING INTO RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA, AND IT'S ALSO, YOU KNOW, IT ALSO FAILS TO ACCOUNT FOR HOW THE UKRAINIANS WILL FIGHT AND HOW THE WAR WILL PROGRESS ONCE WE ARE HELPING THEM.

SO, YES, OF COURSE, IF WE'RE NOT HELPING THEM, THEN LOSS IS MUCH MORE LIKELY, BUT IF WE ARE HELPING THEM, THEN WE CAN TURN IT AROUND.

AND SO, BY VANCE, YOU KNOW, SAFING THAT THEY'LL LOSE, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE WON'T HELP THEM AND THEREFORE THEY'LL LOSE, ISN'T -- IT'S NOT A VERY HONEST ARGUMENT.

>> YOU WROTE A WONDERFUL BOOK IN 2020, IT'S A BOOK ABOUT OUR TIME, WHICH IS CALLED "THE TWILIGHT OF DEMOCRACY: THE SEDUCTIVE LURE OF AUTHORITARIANISM."

AND EXPLAINS WHY CON ITEM RARE COUNTRIES, AND EVEN SOME IN THE WEST, HAVE BEEN WEAK IN DEFENDING THE OLD FASHIONED LIBERAL IDEAS OF DEMOCRACY.

DO YOU FEEL THAT UKRAINE IS THE FRONT LINE OF THAT FIGHT, AND IF SO, DO YOU SEE -- HOW DO YOU SEE THIS FIGHT GOING OVER THE NEXT DECADE?

>> SO, I DO THINK THAT UKRAINE IS THE FRONT LINE IN THE -- IN THE INTERNATIONAL -- THE GEOPOLITICAL ASPECT OF THAT FIGHT.

WE ARE NOW LIVING IN A WORLD IN WHICH RUSSIA IS ALIED WITH IRAN, CHINA, VENEZUELA, BELARUS, AND OTHER AUTOCRACIES.

THEY HAVE DIFFERENT GOALS AND DIFFERENT KINDS OF POLITICAL SYSTEMS.

BUT THEY DO SEE THEMSELVES AS ALIGNED AGAINST DEMOCRACY, AND PARTICULARLY AGAINST THE LANGUAGE OF DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS, RULE OF LAW, TRANSPARENCY, BECAUSE THOSE IDEAS, WHICH ARE OFTEN THE IDEAS USED BY THEIR OWN INTERNAL OPPOSITION, WOULD BE THREATENING TO THEIR FORM OF DICTATORSHIP.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS WHY RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE WAS BECAUSE PUTIN WANTED TO SHOW EUROPEANS IN PARTICULAR THAT HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THEIR, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T CHANGE BORDERS BY FORCE RULES, OR THEIR LAWS ON HUMAN RIGHTS, OR THEIR LANGUAGE, YOU KNOW, NEVER AGAIN, WE MUSTN'T ALLOW MASS MURDER TO HAPPEN IN EUROPE AGAINST AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

HE WANTED TO SHOW EUROPEANS HE DOESN'T CARE.

HE CAN KIDNAP THOUSANDS OF UKRAINIAN CHILDREN, WHICH HE HAS DONE, AND HE'S BEEN SENTENCED BY THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT FOR DOING SO.

HE CAN PUT UKRAINIANS IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS, HE CAN, YOU KNOW, RANDOMLY MURDER UKRAINIANS WALKING DOWN THE STREET IN OCCUPIED UKRAINE.

IF WE REALLY CARE ABOUT THOSE IDEAS, IF WE -- IF WE BELIEVE THAT -- THAT YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO OCCUPY OTHER COUNTRIES AND DESTROY THEM, AND CHANGE THEIR IDENTITY AND MURDER THEIR PEOPLE WITH IMPUNITY, THEN, YES, WE -- THIS -- UKRAINE IN THAT SENSE IS THE FRONT LINE IN A BROADER WAR, WHETHER IT CONTINUES FURTHER MILITARILY INTO POLAND AND THE BALTIC STATES, WHETHER IT CONTINUES FURTHER INTO AFRICA, WHERE THERE'S A LARGE RUSSIAN PRESENCE ALREADY, WHETHER IT JUST MEANS THAT RUSSIA IS EMBOLDENED TO USE ITS, YOU KNOW, INFORMATION WARFARE AND PROPAGANDA IN NEW WAYS ALL OVER THE WORLD, THIS IS -- THIS IS THE PLACE TO STOP THEM.

>> ANNE APPLE BALM, AS ALWAYS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, WORLDS OF CULTURE AND SPORT COLLIDE.

THE LOUVRE IN PARIS, NORMALLY A PLACE OF QUIET ARTISTIC CONTEMPLATION, WILL NOW BE A SPACE FOR FLOWING AND STRETCHING, AS THE CITY PREPARING FOR THE OLYMPICS THIS SUMMER.

THE FAMED MUSEUM PLANS TO ORGANIZE YOGA AND FITNESS SESSIONS IN THE ICONIC GALLERIES.

THEY WILL COME ALONGSIDE A NEW EXHIBITION THAT EXPLORES HOW THE WORLD'S LARGEST SPORTING COMPETITION BEGAN.

AND THUS OFFERING MOVEMENT AMONGST THE MUSES.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

♪♪