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> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
> EVERYBODY KNOWS WHO DONALD TRUMP IS.
WE HAVE TO LET HIM KNOW WHO WE ARE.
WHICH DEMOCRAT IS BEST SUITED TO TAKE ON DONALD TRUMP?
SMART ANALYSIS FROM STRATEGIST MARK McKINNON AND OBAMA ALUM WILLIAM JAWANDO.
> PLUS.
WE CONSIDER JAVAD ZARIF THE SPOKESMAN FOR IRAN.
AMERICA SANCTIONS THE TOP DIPLOMAT.
IS THE WHITE HOUSE SLAMMING THE DOOR ON NEGOTIATIONS?
> AND TELLING TURKEY'S TRUTH IN AN AGE OF AUTHORITARIANISM.
I'LL SPEAK TO ELIF SHAFAK.
LRS --
> MY ELEVATOR PITCH FOR THIS BOOK IS A LESBIAN TAXIDERMIST TAKES OVER HER FATHER'S SHOP AFTER HE DIES.
KRISTEN ARNETT TALKS ABOUT HER BOOK ENTITLED 'MOSTLY DEAD THINGS.'
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
TWO NIGHTS OF HIGH-STAKES DEBATES AND ARE WE ANY CLOSER TO KNOWING WHO WILL CHALLENGE DONALD TRUMP NEXT YEAR?
DEMOCRATS SPENT MORE THAN FIVE HOURS THIS WEEK TRYING TO HASH OUT THEIR DIFFERENCES.
FRONT AND CENTER, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN WHO IS STILL THE CLEAR FRONTRUNNER BY A LONG SHOT.
IN AN EXCHANGE WITH NEW YORK MAYOR BILL de BLASIO AND NEW JERUSALEMY SENATOR CORY BOOKER, THE PARTY'S FULL INTENTIONS WERE ON DISPLAY.
IN THIS CASE IT WAS ABOUT IMMIGRATION.
I GUARANTEE YOU, IF YOU'RE DEBATING DONALD TRUMP, HE'S NOT GOING TO LET YOU OFF THE HOOK.
SO DID YOU SAY THOSE DEPORTATIONS WERE A GOOD IDEA, OR DID YOU GO TO THE PRESIDENT AND SAY, THIS IS A MISTAKE, WE SHOULDN'T DO IT?
WHICH ONE?
I WAS VICE PRESIDENT.
I'M NOT THE PRESIDENT.
I KEEP MY RECOMMENDATIONS IN PRIVATE.
UNLIKE YOU, I SUSPECT YOU WOULD GO AHEAD AND SAY WHATEVER IS SAID PRIVATELY WITH HIM.
THAT'S NOT WHAT I DO.
WHAT I DO SAY IS HE MOVED TO FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE THE SYSTEM.
THAT'S WHAT HE DID.
BUT MUCH MORE HAS TO BE DONE.
MUCH MORE HAS TO BE DONE.
I STILL DON'T HEAR AN ANSWER.
CORY BOOKER, PLEASE RESPOND.
FIRST OF ALL, MR. VICE PRESIDENT, YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.
YOU INVOKE PRESIDENT OBAMA MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THIS CAMPAIGN.
YOU CAN'T DO IT WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT AND DODGE IT WHEN IT'S NOT.
WILLIAM JAWANDO SERVED IN THE WHITE HOUSE IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND HE IS NOW HEAD OF MONTGOMERY COUNCIL.
AND MARK McKINNON IS A PUBLIC STRATEGIST MOST FAMOUS FOR HIS WORK WITH GEORGE W. BUSH AND JOHN McCAIN.
HE'S JOINING ME FROM DENVER.
GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU.
GOOD TO BE HERE.
THANK YOU.
LET'S ASK, BECAUSE EVERYBODY ASKED THESE QUESTIONS.
ON THE HORSE RACE ASPECT OF IT, DO WE KNOW WHETHER ANYBODY DISTINGUISHED THEMSELVES IN THIS SECOND ROUND OF DEBATES NOW IN DETROIT, THE FIRST BEING IN MIAMI LAST MONTH.
DID ANYBODY BREAK OUT IN A SIGNIFICANT WAY, WILL, AS A DEMOCRAT?
I THINK YOU SAW A COUPLE THINGS BETWEEN THE TWO NIGHTS.
FROM ELIZABETH WARREN AND SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS, YOU SAW A STRONG VISION FROM WHERE THEY THINK THE COUNTRY SHOULD GO.
MEDICARE FOR ALL.
I DON'T THINK ANYONE IN THE LAST TWO ELECTION CYCLES HAS HAD MORE INFLUENCE ON THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAN BERNIE SANDERS.
NOW THE BASELINE IS ARE YOU FOR MEDICARE FOR ALL, ARE YOU FOR FREE COLLEGE?
THOSE ARE IDEAS THAT HE BROUGHT TO THE FOREFRONT, EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE.
I THINK THOSE TWO ARE WINNERS FROM BOTH NIGHTS.
FIRST, DEMOCRATS WANT TO BEAT DONALD TRUMP.
SECOND, THEY WANT TO HAVE A PROACTIVE VISION FOR THE COUNTRY, AND I THINK THOSE TWO REALLY PUT THAT OUT THERE.
THAT BEING SAID, BECAUSE DEMOCRATS FIRST WANT TO BEAT DONALD TRUMP, THERE IS STILL A LARGE CONTINGENT THAT THINKS VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN, MY FORMER COLLEAGUE AND BOSS, IS THE ONE TO DO IT.
THAT'S WHY I THINK YOU SEE HIM DOING WELL IN THE POLLS.
I ALSO THINK HE'S RIGHT IN THERE ALONG WITH HARRIS AND BOOKER AND OTHERS, BUT I THINK THE PROBLEM WITH LAST NIGHT'S DEBATE WAS THAT EVERYONE WAS ARGUING, THEY WERE REALLY IN THE SWAMP, GOT DOWN LOW AND THEY WEREN'T GIVEN THAT BIG VISION.
THAT'S WHAT YOU SAW FROM WARREN AND SANDERS THE FIRST NIGHT.
THE BIG VISION, ALL RIGHT.
FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AS A POLITICAL STRATEGIST AND PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS AND YOU CONTINUE TO GIVE YOUR ADVICE, WHAT DO YOU THINK AS A REPUBLICAN IN WHAT YOU'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW ON THE DEMOCRATIC STAGE, MARK?
I AGREE WITH THE BIG TAKEAWAY WHICH IS THE DEMOCRATS SPENT A LOT OF TIME ARGUING ABOUT POLICIES FROM 20 YEARS AGO AND NOT ENOUGH TIME ARGUING ABOUT POLICIES FOR 20 YEARS FROM NOW.
I THOUGHT WE LEARNED A LOT ABOUT THE CANDIDATES.
I THOUGHT THE DEBATES WERE GOOD.
I THOUGHT THEY WERE INFORMATIVE AND SUBSTANTIVE.
I THINK THE MAIN TAKEAWAY FROM ME FOR THE DEBATES IS JOE BIDEN SURVIVED, ALTHOUGH JUST BARELY, BUT SURVIVED IS ENOUGH FOR NOW, AND ELIZABETH WARREN REALLY THRIVED.
I THINK SHE IS THE CANDIDATE WITH THE MOST MOMENTUM RIGHT NOW.
SHE IS WHERE THE HEAT IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS RIGHT NOW.
IF YOU'RE FOR THE POLICIES OF SANDERS AND WARREN, WHY NOT PICK WARREN, BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH HEAT BEING GENERATED IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY TOWARD DIVERSITY AND WOMEN.
SHE'S JUST LIKE A SUNNIER VERSION OF BERNIE, WHO ALWAYS SEEMS ANGRY AND MAD.
THOSE ARE THE TAKEAWAYS.
I THINK WE'RE CLEAR ON WHERE THE NOMINATION MIGHT BE HEADED ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE.
I THINK WE HAVE A TOP TIER OF WARREN, SANDERS, BIDEN, HARRIS AND MAYBE BOOKER AND BUTTIGIEG SNEAKING UP THERE.
THE QUESTION IS WHO IS CLOSER TO ABLE TO BEAT DONALD TRUMP AND DON'T THINK THAT'S CLEAR.
YOU'VE GIVEN FULSOME PRAISE TO ELIZABETH WARREN, AND I JUST WONDER IF THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF REPUBLICAN STRATEGY THERE, AND THAT WOULD BE THE ONE PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD LIKE TO GO UP AGAINST BECAUSE HE WILL JUST BRAND HER A SOCIALIST.
SURE.
WELL, I THINK THAT'S THE CONVENTIONAL THINKING, THAT SHE WOULD BE EASIEST JUST BECAUSE SHE'S SO IDEALOGICALLY PROGRESSIVE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU THINK THROUGH THIS, THERE IS A LOT ABOUT WARREN'S MESSAGE THAT IS A LOT LIKE TRUMP'S IN THE SENSE THAT THE PEOPLE SHE'S APPEALING TO ARE PEOPLE WHO THINK THE SYSTEM IS RIGGED AND THAT THEY'RE GETTING SCREWED.
SHE JUST HAS A DIFFERENT ANSWER TO THOSE PROBLEMS AND A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE WILL FEEL LIKE THEIR GRIEFS HAVEN'T BEEN ANSWERED OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS AND WARREN JUST HAS A DIFFERENT APPROACH.
LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE EVEN SOME REPUBLICAN, YOU KNOW, TOP-RANKED REPUBLICANS LIKE GOVERNORS AND SUCH, I'VE HEARD, WHEN ASKED ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC FIELD, EVEN THEY HAVE GRUDGING RESPECT FOR WARREN WHO HAS CLEARLY DONE HER HOMEWORK AND THE MATH AND THE PLANNING AND THE FUNDING OF ALL THESE THINGS SHE'S PROMISING.
SHE COMES WITH A VERY, VERY STRONG, YOU KNOW, BACKGROUND TO ALL THE THINGS THAT SHE'S SAYING SHE WANTS TO DO, EVEN IF THEY ARE VERY PROGRESSIVE AND BLOW UP THE SYSTEM AND START AGAIN.
TO MARK'S POINT, I THINK SHE BRINGS THE PASSION, TAPS INTO THE POPULIST, THE 'SYSTEM IS RIGGED' KIND OF FEELING, THAT MANY AMERICANS ARE FEELING IN THE GIG ECONOMY, PEOPLE ARE RENT-BURDENED AND STRUGGLING.
THE PEOPLE I REPRESENT IN MARYLAND, PEOPLE LIVING PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK AND HAVING TROUBLE, SHE'S TAPPING INTO THAT, AND BERNIE DID, AND WHAT TRUMP DID IN A NEGATIVE WAY.
SHE ALSO COMES WITH A POLICY RATIONALE AND STATISTICS-DRIVEN PLANS, DOWN TO THE CENT, SHE TALKS ABOUT $50 MILLION AND THEN $50 MILLION AND ONE CENT TO PAY FOR CHILDCARE.
THAT'S WHAT MAKES HER UNIQUE, SHE'S SO PREPARED, BUT SHE TAPS INTO THE PASSION.
SENATOR SANDERS TAPPED INTO THE PASSION AND HAD GENERAL PLANS BUT WASN'T AS GOOD ON THE DETAILS.
TO MARK'S POINT, SENATOR WARREN ALSO DELIVERS IT IN A SLIGHTLY MORE SOFT WAY EVEN THOUGH IT'S PASSIONATE.
I THINK SHE'S ON THE RISE.
I THINK YOU'LL SEE HER GO UP IN THE POLLS.
I DON'T THINK IT'S OVER, THOUGH, BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE STILL QUESTION THE POINT WHETHER SOMETHING THAT RADICAL CAN DEFEAT DONALD TRUMP WHERE WE ARE TODAY, AND THAT'S WHY I THINK YOU'LL SEE JOE BIDEN STILL REMAINS STRONG, THAT'S WHY I THINK SENATOR HARRIS REMAINS STRONG.
SOME OF THOSE GOOD, WELL-SPOKEN, PASSIONATE CANDIDATES THAT MIGHT TAKE A SLIGHTLY LESS PROGRESSIVE OR LEFTIST VIEW ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES.
OKAY.
MARK, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP ESSENTIALLY HAS KIND OF EVERYTHING GOING FOR HIM IF YOU TAKE STATISTICS SINCE 1900, THE VAST MAJORITY OF INCUMBENTS HAVE WON ONLY ABOUT FOUR, HAVE LOST IN THEIR REELECTION BID.
YOU HAVE THE ECONOMY GOING WELL, AT LEAST ON A MACRO LEVEL.
I KNOW THERE ARE MANY, MANY ISSUES WITH KITCHEN TABLE ECONOMICS, ET CETERA, FOR NORMAL PEOPLE, BUT IN THE BIG PICTURE, WAGES, UNEMPLOYMENT.
BUT YOU HAVE VERY STRANGE STATISTICS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HE HAS VERY, VERY LOW APPROVAL RATINGS.
SO HIGH-PERFORMING ECONOMY THAT HE CAN BOAST BUT LOW APPROVAL RATINGS.
HOW IS THAT GOING TO PLAY OUT?
HOW IS THAT SUSTAINABLE?
THE TYPICAL QUESTION IS HOW DO THESE TWO FIGURES EXIST IN THE SAME SENTENCE?
WELL, IT'S AN ANOMALY, AND YOU'RE RIGHT, WE'VE NEVER SEEN IT HISTORICALLY.
GENERALLY THE PRESIDENT'S APPROVAL RATING PRETTY MUCH MATCHES UP WITH THE ECONOMIC APPROVAL OF THE COUNTRY, AND AS YOU KNOW, THE ECONOMIC OUTLOOK RIGHT NOW IS PRETTY STRONG.
WHETHER THAT REMAINS, WE'LL SEE, BUT ACROSS THE BOARD WHERE I'VE SEEN LOW UNEMPLOYMENT, HIGH STOCK MARKET, A LOT OF THINGS TO GIVE REPUBLICANS A LOT OF HOPE ABOUT THE ELECTION, BUT THERE IS THAT DISCONNECT WITH THE APPROVAL OF DONALD TRUMP.
THAT'S WHERE DEMOCRATS HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY -- HISTORICALLY SPEAKING, THIS SHOULD BE LIKE A REAGAN RE-ELECT IN A 48, 49-STATE SWEEP.
BUT IT'S NOT, IT'S IN PLAY, SO DEMOCRATS HAVE TO BE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT, OTHERWISE IT WOULDN'T BE CLOSE.
I THINK A MESSAGE THAT RECOGNIZES THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE DISENFRANCHISED, STILL, BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF THEM, AND THAT'S WHAT WARREN'S MESSAGE IS ALL ABOUT.
SHE'S SAYING THE ECONOMY MAY BE WORKING BUT IT'S NOT WORKING FOR MOST PEOPLE.
IT'S WORKING ONLY FOR PEOPLE AT THE TOP.
SHE CAN TALK ABOUT THE TAX CUTS AND THINGS THAT HAVE BENEFITED ONLY THE RICH IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THAT'S WHY THAT ARGUMENT HAS A LOT OF SCIENCE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, AS WILL SAID, THERE'S A LOT OF DANGER IN THAT, AND THAT'S WHY TRUMP IS SALIVATING, BECAUSE A BIG PART OF THAT TAKEAWAY IF YOU'RE REPUBLICAN IS, OKAY, WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE AWAY YOUR PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE.
THEY'RE GOING TO GIVE FREE INSURANCE NOT JUST TO ANYBODY IN AMERICA, BUT ANYONE WHO COMES ACROSS THE BORDER, AND BY THE WAY, WE'RE GOING TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO COME ACROSS THE BORDER TO TAKE EVERYTHING YOU'VE WORKED HARD FOR.
YOU TALKED A LOT ABOUT ELIZABETH WARREN, HER DETAIL, HER POLICY, BUT BIDEN, STILL, WE'RE GOING TO PUT THE GRAPHIC UP TO REMIND EVERYBODY, AS WE SAID IS STILL RIGHT NOW THE FRONTRUNNER AT 32% ACCORDING TO THE REAL CLEAR POLITICS, AND HIS CLOSEST RIVAL BERNIE SANDERS IS AT 16% WITH WARREN AT 15%. BUT HE HAS BEEN TAKING SOME -- WELL, OBVIOUSLY, EVERYBODY GANGED UP ON HIM LAST NIGHT BECAUSE HE IS FRONTRUNNER, AND I JUST WANT TO KNOW FROM YOU, WILL, HE WAS YOUR BOSS, YOU WORKED IN THE WHITE HOUSE UNDER HIM.
HE'S INVOKING PRESIDENT OBAMA A LOT AND TRYING TO USE THE OBAMA SHIELD, ACCORDING TO OTHERS LIKE SENATOR BOOKER AND OTHERS, TO SORT OF SHIELD HIM FROM HIS RECORD ON, WELL, CIVIL RIGHTS AND BUSING AND ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE.
LET'S JUST LISTEN TO WHAT BIDEN SAID ABOUT THAT.
I FIND IT FASCINATING, EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT HOW TERRIBLE I AM ON THESE ISSUES.
BARACK OBAMA KNEW EXACTLY WHO I WAS.
HE HAD TEN LAWYERS DO A BACKGROUND CHECK ON EVERYTHING ABOUT ME IN CIVIL RIGHTS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES, AND HE CHOSE ME AND HE SAID IT WAS THE BEST DECISION HE MADE.
SO WHAT DO YOU THINK?
I MEAN, BOTH OF YOU, WILL, BECAUSE YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT AND YOU WORKED FOR HIM AND HE'S FRONTRUNNER.
IS USING THE OBAMA SHIELD A GOOD PLAY?
LOOK, I WOULDN'T CALL IT USING THE OBAMA SHIELD, I THINK HE'S USING THE RECORD THAT HE WAS A PART OF AS PART OF THE TEAM.
LOOK, PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS A 97% APPROVAL RATING AMONGST DEMOCRATS.
IF YOU SAW THE CHAIR OF THE DNC COME OUT BEFORE THE DEBATE, TOM PEREZ, HE SAID, WHO MISSES BARACK OBAMA, AND THE PLACE EXPLODED IN DETROIT.
I THINK YOU WOULD BE A FOOL NOT TO ASSOCIATE YOURSELF WITH AN ADMINISTRATION YOU WERE A PART OF FOR EIGHT YEARS, AND I WAS PROUD OF IT FOR THE COUNTRY.
I THINK BOTH SIDES ARE USING, EVEN THOUGH YOU SEE SEVERAL DEMOCRATS, BOOKER, KAMALA HARRIS AND OTHERS, DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM THE POLICIES.
THEY HAVE BEEN HESITANT TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF.
I THINK BOTH SIDES ARE GOING TO TRY TO USE IT, CERTAINLY JOE BIDEN IS GOING TO TRY TO USE IT.
BUT I WANT TO SAY ONE THING ABOUT WHY THIS ELECTION IS IMPORTANT AS WELL.
YOU HAVE THIS UNDERCURRENT -- NOT AN UNDERCURRENT, AN OVERCURRENT, A TIDE OF RACISM AND BIGOTRY AND XENOPHOBIA THAT -- AND ALL THE ATTACKS FROM THIS PRESIDENT THAT I THINK WILL MOTIVATE THE PEOPLE OF COLOR TO COME OUT IN A WAY THEY'VE NEVER COME OUT BEFORE, AND THAT'S ANOTHER REASON YOU SEE THOSE LOW APPROVAL RATINGS FOR THE PRESIDENT IN ADDITION TO THAT.
SINCE YOU DO MENTION THAT, AND WE ARE GOING TO GO RIGHT INTO IT, AGAIN, THE POLLS SHOW THAT VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN HAS A VERY HIGH APPROVAL RATING AMONGST AFRICAN-AMERICAN VOTERS, BLACK DEMOCRATIC VOTERS, ANYWAY.
53% APPROVE OF JOE BIDEN, AND IT'S MUCH, MUCH, MUCH LOWER FOR OTHERS LIKE SANDERS, HARRIS, WARREN, BOOKER, EVEN FOR AFRICAN-AMERICAN CANDIDATES.
THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING.
BUT YOU DO BRING UP, SADLY, THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, OR NOT EVEN IN THE ROOM, THE ACTUAL OVERCURRENT, AS YOU SAID, OF RACISM.
SO I WANT TO ASK YOU, MARK McKINNON, HOW UGLY YOU THINK THIS RACE IS GOING TO GET, BECAUSE I THINK YOU'VE SPOKEN ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S ATTACK ON THOSE FOUR CONGRESSWOMEN OF COLOR, HIS RELENTLESS TWEETING ON CONGRESSMAN ELIJAH CUMMINGS OF MARYLAND.
IS THIS A STRATEGY?
WE READ FROM THE WHITE HOUSE THAT PEOPLE ARE SHOCKED AND RELUCTANT FOR THIS TO HAPPEN, AND THEY'RE LAUGHING AT PEOPLE WHO THINK IT'S A PRESIDENTIAL STRATEGY RATHER THAN JUST IMPULSE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
BECAUSE OTHERS THINK IT'S STRATEGY.
IT WORKED FOR HIM IN 2016 AND HE'S DOUBLING DOWN.
I THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP IS INSTINCTIVE AND HE'S COMPULSIVE AND HE HITS EVERYTHING IN FRONT OF HIM.
THERE'S NOTHING LONG TERM ABOUT THIS, IT'S WHO HE IS.
IT'S IN HIS DNA.
IT'S HOW HE WON BEFORE AND HOW HE THINKS HE'LL WIN AGAIN.
AS WILL SAID, A BIG PART OF THE REASON DONALD TRUMP WON IS BECAUSE TYPICAL DEMOCRATIC CONSTITUENCIES DIDN'T TURN OUT IN LARGE NUMBERS.
BY DOING WHAT HE'S DOING RIGHT NOW, I GUARANTEE YOU WE'RE GOING TO SEE THE HIGHEST TURNOUT PROBABLY OF ANY PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN HISTORY, CERTAINLY AMONG DEMOCRATS.
IT'S GOING TO BE HIGH AMONG REPUBLICANS AS WELL.
THAT'S HOW DONALD TRUMP DOES IT.
HE DOES IT BY DIVISION, HE DOES IT BY SCARE TACTICS, HE DOES IT BY FEARMONGERING.
HE DOES IT BY PITTING US AGAINST THEM.
AND IN ORDER TO GET THE FEAR FACTOR, HE NEEDS TO PUMP UP THE FEAR OF THEM AGAINST US.
THAT'S A PRETTY WILD STATEMENT, YOU THINK IT WOULD BE THE HIGHEST TURNOUT IN RECENT ELECTIONS AND DONALD TRUMP MAY BE DIGGING HIS OWN POLITICAL GRAVE.
I DON'T KNOW, I THINK YOU SAID THAT, REGARDING AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND INCREASING THE TURNOUT COMPARED TO LAST TIME.
DO YOU SEE THAT, WILL?
YOU'RE IN MARYLAND WHICH IS TAKING THE FULL BRUNT IN THE RECENT WEEKS, CERTAINLY IN THE CITY OF BALTIMORE, FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP'S -- I THINK HE SAID RAT-INFESTED AND ALL THE REST OF IT.
YEAH.
DISGUSTING AND SO MANY THINGS.
I DO.
I SEE IT HERE, I SEE IT IN THE CAB DRIVER ON THE WAY OVER HERE.
AGAIN, AS I SAID EARLIER, NUMBER ONE, PEOPLE WANT TO BEAT DONALD TRUMP, AND THAT'S WHY YOU'RE SEEING JOE BIDEN DO SO WELL.
THOSE NUMBERS ARE STAGGERING IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY.
I THINK IT SPEAKS TO THE HIGH APPROVAL RATINGS OF THE PRESIDENT, OF PRESIDENT OBAMA.
SO I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE HIGH TURNOUT.
AND TO MARK'S POINT, DONALD TRUMP IS NOT GOING TO TONE THIS DOWN, AS MUCH AS SOME REPUBLICANS MIGHT WANT HIM TO.
HE'S GOING TO DOUBLE DOWN AND KEEP GOING.
HE FEEDS OFF IT.
I THINK HE SAID ON TWITTER LAST NIGHT, THE DEBATE NEEDED ME ON STAGE, AND SO I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE MORE OF THIS, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE MORE RATCHETED UP, AND THAT IS GOING TO LEAD, I THINK, TO TURNOUT ON BOTH SIDES.
UNFORTUNATELY, THERE IS STILL MANY PEOPLE, AS WE'VE SEEN IN ACTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THAT FEEL LIKE DONALD TRUMP GIVES THEM LICENSE TO SAY RACIST, XENOPHOBIC, ANTI-SEMITIC, A WHOLE BUNCH OF NEGATIVE THINGS THAT DIVIDE US.
BUT I THINK THE TURNOUT ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE WILL BE MUCH HIGHER.
AND FINALLY, AND WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, THE BIG 'I.'
YOU KNOW, THE IMPEACHMENT.
SO MUCH DIVISION AMONGST DEMOCRATS, CERTAINLY IN CONGRESS, ABOUT WHETHER THAT'S A WINNING STRATEGY OR NOT.
THERE WAS TALK ABOUT IT LAST NIGHT.
LET ME PLAY IT AND I'LL ASK YOU BOTH.
I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WHATEVER WE DO DOESN'T END UP WITH AN ACQUITTAL BY MITCH McCONNELL IN THE SENATE, WHICH IT SURELY WOULD, AND THEN PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD SAY HE WAS ACQUITTED BY THE U.S. CONGRESS.
FOLKS ARE MAKING A MISTAKE BY NOT PURSUING IMPEACHMENT.
THE MUELLER REPORT CLEARLY DETAILS THAT HE DESERVES IT, AND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE FALL NEXT YEAR OF 2020 IF THEY DON'T IMPEACH HIM, THEN HE CAN SAY, SEE?
SEE?
THE DEMOCRATS DIDN'T GO AFTER ME ON IMPEACHMENT, AND YOU KNOW WHY?
BECAUSE I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG.
SO 30 SECONDS FROM EACH OF YOU IN RESPONSE.
MARK McKINNON, IMPEACHMENT.
A SMART DEMOCRATIC STRATEGY?
DEADLOCK LOSER FOR DEMOCRATS.
TAKE IMPEACHMENT OFF THE TABLE.
IT'S A HUGE DISTRACTION.
THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HAS MOVED ON.
IT'S NOT THAT THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT IT, THEY JUST DON'T THINK IT'S RELEVANT TO THEIR LIVES AND THEIR FUTURES.
I THINK THE BEST MOVE FOR DEMOCRATS WOULD BE FOR THEM TO PUT IT IN THEIR REARVIEW MIRROR AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
WILL?
I HAVE TO DEPART WITH MARK ON THIS ONE.
I THINK OUR DEMOCRACY IS AT STAKE.
I THINK IT NEEDS TO MOVE FORWARD.
WHETHER OR NOT IT'S SUCCESSFUL, YOU CAN HANG THAT RIGHT AT THE DOORSTEP OF MOSCOW MITCH AND SAY THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE WHEREWITHAL TO CONVICT.
AND I THINK THEY WILL NEED THE HELP OF DEMOCRATS IN THE SENATE, WHICH THEY ALSO NEED TO PICK UP IF WE'RE GOING TO GET ANYTHING DONE WITH THE FILIBUSTER RULES.
SO WE HAVE TO PROCEED, I THINK THE CASE HAS BEEN MADE, AND I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY A WINNER FOR DEMOCRATS.
WE HAD TO DISAGREE ON SOMETHING.
YES, YOU DID.
WILL JAWANDO AND MARK McKINNON, THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH.
> FOREIGN POLICY HAS NOT BEEN A STRONG FOCUS OF THE CAMPAIGN SO FAR AS MAYOR de BLASIO PROTESTED LAST NIGHT.
TAKE A LISTEN.
WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT IRAN.
PLEASE.
WE'RE ON A MARCH TO WAR IN IRAN RIGHT NOW.
PLEASE FOLLOW THE RULES, MAYOR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
WE'RE GOING ON.
WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT ANOTHER SUBJECT.
NOW, TO BE FAIR, IT WAS BRIEFLY TOUCHED ON EARLIER, BUT THIS IS NOW COMING AS TENSIONS SEEM TO BE RATCHETING UP BY THE DAY.
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS NOW PUT THE IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER ON ITS SANCTIONS LIST.
HE'S THE DIPLOMAT MOST KNOWN FOR SHEPHERDING HIS NATION THROUGH THE NUCLEAR DEAL IN THOSE ENDLESS MONTHS AND YEARS OF NEGOTIATIONS WITH SENATOR KERRY.
SECRETARY OF STATE POMPEO IN A STATEMENT SAID, IRAN'S FOREIGN MINISTRY IS NOT MERELY THE DIPLOMATIC ARM OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC BUT ALSO A MEANS OF ADVANCING MANY OF THE SUPREME LEADER'S DESTABILIZING POLICIES.
PRESIDENT HASSAN ROUHANI OF IRAN FIRED BACK, SAYING, THAT MUST MEAN THEY ARE FRIGHTENED ABOUT CAPABILITIES.
IF THEY'RE SERIOUS ABOUT NEGOTIATIONS, WHO OTHER THAN THE FOREIGN MINISTER CAN BE THEIR I WANT INTERLOCUTOR?
ALI VAEZ, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
ARE WE ON A MARCH TO WAR, AS MAYOR de BLASIO WAS TRYING TO GET A WORD EDGEWISE ON THIS?
GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.
CLEARLY WE ARE STUMBLING INTO A CONFLICT WITH THE IRANIANS.
IN JUNE WE CAME STEPS AWAY, ACCORDING TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, FROM ENTERING A CONFLICT WITH IRAN.
THE PROBLEM WITH THIS LATEST DESIGNATION BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS IT REALLY PUTS ON FULL DISPLAY THE INCOHERENCE OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.
ON THE ONE HAND, THE PRESIDENT SAYS ALL THE TIME HE'S READY TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE IRANIANS WITHOUT ANY PRE-CONDITIONS.
ON THE OTHER HAND, HIS ADMINISTRATION SANCTIONS IRAN'S DIPLOMAT IN CHIEF.
ON THE ONE HAND, SECRETARY POMPEO SAYS FOREIGN MINISTER ZARIF IS POWERFUL ENOUGH TO BE SANCTIONED.
ON THE OTHER HAND, HE SAYS HE'S NOT POWERFUL ENOUGH TO BE ENGAGED WITH.
THAT INCONSISTENCY IS PRECISELY WHAT'S PUSHING US TOWARD A DISASTROUS CONFLICT WITH IRAN.
SO LET'S JUST TAKE THE TWEET.
HE BASICALLY SAID HE HAS ENRICHED HIMSELF AT THE EXPENSE OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.
TODAY THE U.S. DESIGNATED HIS CHIEF APOLICY GIST, JAVAD ZARIF.
THEY SAY HE'S AS RESPONSIBLE FOR IRAN'S BEHAVIOR AS THE MAFIA.
THESE ARE VERY RATCHETED UP WORDS, THE LANGUAGE IS VERY, VERY OUT THERE.
WHAT IS THE DESIRED EFFECT OF THIS?
LOOK, I THINK THE DESIRED EFFECT BY AT LEAST THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL IS TO HINDER DIPLOMACY WITH IRAN.
WE KNOW THAT ALTHOUGH THE PRESIDENT IS PRIMARILY INTERESTED IN NEGOTIATING A BETTER AND BROADER DEAL WITH THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT, HIS ADVISERS, ALMOST EVERYONE IN HIS NATIONAL SECURITY TEAM, DOES NOT SHARE THAT OBJECTIVE.
THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE JOHN BOLTON AND SECRETARY POMPEO WHO HAVE HAD A LONG TRACK RECORD OF PURSUING REGIME CHANGE IN IRAN, PURSUING A MILITARY CONFRONTATION WITH IRAN.
AND I THINK THAT IS THE REAL TENSION AT THE CORE OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.
IN FACT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S IRAN POLICY IS AT WAR WITH ITSELF.
IF THE PRESIDENT REALLY WANTS TO ENGAGE THE IRANIANS, I DOUBT HE WOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT WITH THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM.
THAT'S MAYBE WHY HE'S STARTING TO LOOK AROUND TO SENATOR RAND PAUL OR SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM OR FRENCH PRESIDENT MACRON TO HELP HIM GET OUT OF THIS SITUATION.
SO ALI, YOU TALK ABOUT SORT OF MIXED MESSAGES.
THERE ARE MIXED MESSAGES COMING FROM POMPEO HIMSELF, ON THE ONE HAND A VERY EXPLICIT CONDEMNATION OF ZAV ADD JAVAD ZARIF.
ON THE OTHER HAND HE GAVE AN INTERVIEW TO BLOOMBERG WHERE HE SAID HE WANTS TO GO TO TEHRAN.
I'VE SPOKEN DIRECTLY TO THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.
SHARIF COMES TO NEW YORK, HE DRIVES AROUND IN THE MOST WONDERFUL CITY IN AMERICA AND HE SPEAKS TO THE MEDIA AND TALKS TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.
GETS TO PUT IRANIAN PROPAGANDA OUT INTO THE AMERICAN AIRWAVES.
I'D LIKE A CHANCE TO GO, NOT TO PROPAGANDA, BUT TO SPEAK TO THE IRANIAN PEOPLE AND SPEAK THE TRUTH AND TELL THEM BUT HOW THEIR LEADERSHIP HAS HARMED IRAN.
I THINK THE REASON THEY WON'T PERMIT THAT TO HAPPEN IS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE TRUTH AS WELL.
ALI, PLEASE PICK AT THAT FOR US.
MIKE POMPEO IS THE FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE CIA.
NO AMERICAN OFFICIAL HAS BEEN TO IRAN SINCE THE HOSTAGE CRISIS AND SINCE THE REVOLUTION.
DOES HE REALLY THINK THAT HE CAN CIRCUMVENT THE IRANIAN REGIME TO TALK DIRECTLY FROM INSIDE IRAN TO THE IRANIAN PEOPLE?
YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, IF HE WANTS TO SPEAK TO THE IRANIAN PEOPLE, THERE IS INTEREST FROM THE IRANIAN PRESS TO INTERVIEW HIM, THE U.S. HAS A LOT OF CHANNELS LIKE THE VOICE OF AMERICA OR RADIO-FREE EUROPE THAT CAN COMMUNICATE TO THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.
I WONDER WHAT HE'S GOING TO SAY, BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF IRANIAN PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING AS A RESULT OF THE SANCTIONS THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS IMPOSED ON IRAN.
DOES HE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE MISERY HE'S BROUGHT TO THE IRANIAN PEOPLE?
I THINK, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, THERE IS A CASE OF PERSONAL ANIMUS AND MAYBE JEALOUSY HERE BECAUSE SECRETARY POMPEO KNOWS FOREIGN MINISTER ZARIF IS A MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATOR AND A MUCH BETTER SPEAKER THAN HE IS.
AND I THINK PART OF THE REASON HE'S BEEN DESIGNATED IS THIS EFFORT TO PUSH HIM OUT OF ALL THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS THAT THE FOREIGN MINISTER USES TO TRY TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THIS ADMINISTRATION'S EFFORT TO DEMONIZE THE IRANIANS.
BUT THE LANGUAGE AND LEXICON THAT SECRETARY POMPEO AND JOHN BOLTON USE BASICALLY CLEARLY SHOWS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION POLICY, IN FACT, AT ITS CORE, IS A REGIME CHANGE POLICY.
THIS IS NOT A POLICY AIMED AT REACHING A DIPLOMATIC SETTLEMENT WITH IRAN.
SO ON THE ONE HAND YOU SAY THE POLICY OF THE ADMINISTRATION IS REGIME CHANGE, BUT ALSO PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS INDICATED HE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE NEGOTIATIONS.
SO THAT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A MIXED MESSAGE THERE.
BUT YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOU FEEL TODAY THE MIDDLE EAST IS IN THE MIDST OF ITS OWN 1914 PRE-WORLD WAR I MOMENT?
ABSOLUTELY.
LOOK, THE REALITY IS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS CREATED THE SITUATION IN THE REGION THAT IS RIPE FOR INADVERTENT CONFLICT.
THERE IS SO MUCH FRICTION BETWEEN IRAN AND THE U.S. AND RESPECTED ALLIES IN THE REGION, THAT EVEN ON A GOOD DAY, INCIDENTS COULD OCCUR THAT COULD QUICKLY ESCALATE INTO A MILITARY CONFRONTATION.
AT THIS STAGE THERE IS NO CHANNEL OF COMMUNICATION BETWEEN IRAN AND THE U.S., BETWEEN IRAN AND SAUDI ARABIA, BETWEEN IRAN AND ISRAEL.
AND THERE IS NO EXIT RAMP.
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS FAILED TO PROVIDE THE IRANIANS WITH A FACE-SAVING WAY OUT OF THIS STANDOFF.
AND WITH THE VERY SHARP RED LINE THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS DRAWN THAT IF ANY AMERICAN IS KILLED, IT IS QUITE POSSIBLE THAT GIVEN THE LEVEL OF FRICTION, GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE IRANIANS HAVE SEEN MORE VALUE IN TRYING TO PUSH BACK TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND MOHR MORE VALUE IN NONCOMPLIANCE WITH THE NUCLEAR DEAL, THAT THEY CONTINUE TO ALSO PROVOKE THE ADMINISTRATION, AND IF AN AMERICAN IS KILLED, I THINK ALL GLOVES WOULD BE OFF AND WE WOULD BE IN A SITUATION OF A TIT-FOR-TAT AT LEAST BETWEEN IRAN AND THE U.S. THAT COULD QUICKLY ESCALATE INTO A REGIONAL CONFLAGRATION.
THE REALITY IS THAT THE IRANIANS HAVE OVER THE YEARS CREATED A NETWORK OF PARTNERS AND PROXIES FROM HEZBOLLAH TO THE SHIAS IN IRAQ, THEY WOULD ACTIVATE IT IN CASE IRAN COMES UNDER ATTACK.
YOU WOULD SEE A CRISIS BETWEEN IRAN AND THE U.S., QUICKLY PUTTING THE ENTIRE REGION ON FIRE IN THE SAME WAY THAT THE ASSASSINATION OF THE YOU SAY AUSTRIAN-HUNGARIAN HEIR IN SERBIA IN 1914 PUT THE ENTIRE EUROPEAN CONTINENT, AND IN FACT, THE WORLD, ON FIRE.
ALI VAEZ, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.
A SERIOUS SITUATION, INDEED, AND WE'RE TURNING NOW TO IRAN'S NEIGHBOR, TURKEY.
SUPPOSEDLY A U.S. ALLY AND OF COURSE A MEMBER OF OF NATO.
ONCE A BASTION OF SECULAR RULE.
IT'S AN ISSUE WE'VE COVERED OFTEN ON THIS PROGRAM, BUT SOMETIMES IT TAKES A WORK OF FICTION TO TRULY BRING LIGHT TO THIS REALITY.
THE WORLD-WINNING NOVELIST ELIF SHAFAK HAS CLASHED WITH THE GOVERNMENT THERE BECAUSE OF HER BOLD WORK.
HER LATEST NOVEL IS '10 MINUTES 38 SECONDS IN THIS STRANGE WORLD.'
SHE'S JOINING ME NOW HERE IN LONDON.
WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, ELIF, GOOD TO SEE YOU.
THANK YOU.
THIS BOOK IS GETTING A LOT OF ATTENTION.
IT'S AN UNUSUAL TITLE, I HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT IT.
IT'S ABOUT A YOUNG WOMAN NAMED LAILA.
SHE IS A SEX WORKER, BEEN TRAFFICKED INTO THE BUSINESS.
WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE TITLE?
I BECAME INTERESTED IN MEDICAL STUDIES THAT SHOWED THE MOMENT AFTER DEATH, THE MOMENT AFTER THE HEART HAS STOPPED BEATING.
THE HUMAN BRAIN CAN CONTINUE TO WORK, REMAINS ACTIVE FOR ANOTHER FEW MINUTES, PARTICULARLY IN CANADA IN INTENSIVE CARE UNITS.
DOCTORS HAVE OFTEN OBSERVED PERSISTENT BRAIN ACTIVITY FOR TEN MINUTES, AND I WANTED TO ADD MY OWN 30 SECONDS TO THAT.
RIGHT AWAY ON THE FRONT PAGE WE KNOW SHE HAS BEEN BRUTALLY KILLED, HER BODY HAS BEEN DUMPED IN A GARBAGE CAN, BUT SHE IS THINKING IN THE WAY THE MIND IS WORKING.
AND AS SHE REMEMBERS HER PAST MINUTE BY MINUTE, WE TRAVEL INTO THE STORY OF HER LIFE BUT ALSO THE STORY OF TURKEY AND THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT ALWAYS TOLD THROUGH THE EYES OF OUTCASTS.
OUTCASTS IS SORT OF A THEME WITH YOU, AND PARTICULARLY WOMEN.
YOU'RE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT YOUR WRITING BECAUSE YOU EXPLORE SO MANY OF THE GLOBAL ISSUES FROM A FEMALE PERSPECTIVE, FROM THE DOWNTRODDEN PERSPECTIVE, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF INJUSTICE AND TRYING TO RECTIFY INJUSTICE.
WE'LL GET TO THOSE BOOKS IN A MOMENT.
BUT WHAT DOES THIS STORY TELL US ABOUT TURKEY TODAY?
I THINK IN SOCIETIES WHERE DEMOCRACY IS LOST AND WHERE WE SEE AN INCREASE IN POPULIST AUTHORITARIANISM, INCREASE OF NATIONALISM, FUNDAMENTALISM, WE ALSO SEE AN INCREASE IN BIGOTRY, INTOLERANCE, AND IN SUCH SOCIETIES, I BELIEVE SEXISM INCREASES, HOMOPHOBIA INCREASES.
THIS IS NOT A COINCIDENCE.
IT BECOMES EVEN MORE DIFFICULT TO BE DIFFERENT.
IF YOU'RE DIFFERENT FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, LIFE IS MUCH HARDER IF YOU'RE REGARDED S.
OTHER.
AS WRITERS, OF COURSE, AS STORYTELLERS, WE ARE INTERESTED IN STORIES BUT I THINK WE'RE EQUALLY INTERESTED IN SILENCES AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN SILENCED.
PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SILENCED, BUT THE COUNTRY IN A WAY HAS BEEN SILENCED.
IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS WE KNOW THAT THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS SAY TURKEY IS THE BIGGEST JAILER OF JOURNALISTS.
WE KNOW SINCE THE 2016 ATTEMPTED COUP, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF MEMBERS OF CIVIL SOCIETY, FROM JUDGES TO TEACHERS TO ORDINARY WORKERS TO INTELLECTUALS AND OTHERS, HAVE BEEN PUT IN PRISON.
WHERE ARE WE GOING?
IS IT STILL GOING IN THAT DIRECTION?
OR IN SOME ELECTIONS, LIKE FOR THE MAYOR OF ISTANBUL, THERE IS A LITTLE BACKLASH WORKING AT THE POLLS.
I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE LOCAL ELECTIONS IS, OF COURSE, INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.
AS YOU KNOW, ON THE LAST DAY OF MARCH WE HAD THE ELECTIONS AND IN EVERY MAJOR CITY, THE OPPOSITION HAD WON, IN ISTANBUL AS WELL.
BUT ONLY IN ISTANBUL, THE ELECTIONS WERE CANCELED.
THE OPPOSITION MAYORAL CANDIDATE WON A SECOND TIME, WHICH IS A VERY POSITIVE STEP.
BUT TO GO BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, I THINK THE CASE OF TURKEY IS VERY IMPORTANT AND MAYBE TEACHES IMPORTANT LESSONS FOR PROPAGANDA-MINDED PEOPLE EVERYWHERE, BECAUSE WE HAD ELECTIONS IN TURKEY AND IT SHOWED ELECTIONS ITSELF IS NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE A DEMOCRACY A COUNTRY.
YOU NEED RULE OF LAW.
YOU DEFINITELY NEED SEPARATION OF POWERS.
DEFINITELY AN INDEPENDENT DIVERSE MEDIA AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH, FREEDOM OF MEDIA, INDEPENDENT ACADEMIA, WOMEN'S RIGHTS, LGBT RIGHTS, MINORITY RIGHTS.
TOGETHER WITH ALL THESE COMPONENTS, A DEMOCRACY CAN SURVIVE.
WHAT HAPPENED IN TURKEY IS ONE BY ONE, WE HAVE LOST ALL THOSE COMPONENTS.
AND YOU YOURSELF HAS BEEN BORNE THE BRUNT OF QUITE A LOT OF THE STATE'S ANGRY.
I THINK YOU SAID NOT ONLY IS THIS AUTHORITARIAN POPULISM SUCH AND SUCH, BUT IT'S ALSO ANTI-INTELLECTUAL AT ITS HEART.
SO PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO ARE INTELLECTUALS AND TRY TO TELL THE STORY ARE DOUBLY TARGETED.
IS THAT RIGHT?
WHAT IS IT THEY'RE AFRAID OF FROM THEIR INTELLECTUALS?
I THINK MUCH HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT THE ANTI-LIBERAL NATURE OF POPULISM.
I THINK THAT'S TRUE.
WE SEE THIS IN COUNTRY AFTER COUNTRY, DEFINITELY IN TURKEY BUT ALSO HUNGARY, POLAND, THE LIST IS GETTING LONGER.
BUT MAYBE LESS HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT SOME OTHER CHARACTERISTICS OF POPULIST NATIONALISM.
IT'S ENTIRELY UNPLURALISTIC.
IT DOESN'T WANT TO SEE SOCIETY AS A COMPLEX PHENOMENON, BUT AT THE SAME TIME I THINK IT'S ANTI-FEMINIST AND ANTI-INTELLECTUAL.
IN TURKEY TODAY, ANYONE WHO DEALS WITH WORDS, EVERY JOURNALIST, WRITER, POET, OR ACADEMIC KNOWS, THAT BECAUSE SOMETHING IS SAID IN AN INTERVIEW, BECAUSE OF A POEM, AN ARTICLE, A BOOK, A NOVEL OR MAYBE A TWEET OR RETWEET, YOU CAN GET IN TROUBLE SO EASILY.
SO WORDS HAVE BECOME HEAVY.
I THINK WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE ANTI-INTELLECTUAL NATURE OF POPULIST NATIONALISM.
YOU FACE IT IN COURT, RIGHT?
YOU'VE WRITTEN 'THE GAYS,' WHICH GOT YOU IN TROUBLE, YOU'VE WRITTEN 'THE BASTARD OF ISTANBUL,' YOU'VE WRITTEN BOOKS ABOUT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE IN WHICH THE TURKEY GOVERNMENT HAS ALWAYS DENIED.
YOU SHOVED YOURSELF RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT RED HOT DEBATE, AND IN COURT YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR LAWYER HAVING TO DEFEND THE FICTIONAL CHARACTERS IN YOUR BOOK.
EXACTLY.
WE HAVE AN ARTICLE 301 IN OUR CONSTITUTION WHICH IS QUITE PROBLEMATIC.
IT HAS BEEN USED AGAINST MANY INTELLECTUALS, MANY ACADEMICS, JOURNALISTS IN PARTICULAR.
I SINCERELY BELIEVE JOURNALISM HAS BECOME THE MOST DIFFICULT PROFESSION IN TURKEY.
BUT IN 2006, THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN USED AGAINST A WORK OF FICTION FOR THE FIRST TIME.
I WROTE A NOVEL CALLED 'THE BASTARD OF ISTANBUL' WHICH TELLS THE STORY OF A TURKISH FAMILY AND AN ARMENIAN FAMILY.
IT TELLS THE STORY FROM THE EYES OF WOMEN.
SENTENCES WERE TAKEN OUT OF THE BOOK AND USED AS EVIDENCE IN THE COURTROOM.
IN THE MEANTIME, THERE WERE NATIONALIST GROUPS ON THE STREETS, SPITTING AT MY PICTURES, BURNING THE FLAG, BECAUSE IN THEIR EYES, ANYONE THAT QUESTIONS THEM MUST BE A STOOGE OF WESTERN POWERS.
THAT MADNESS WENT ON FOR YEAR.
AT THE END, MY LAWYER HAD TO DEFEND MY CHARACTERS IN THE COURTROOM.
TO YOUR POINT, THE BOARD SAYS I WOULD RATHER TRUST IGNORANT PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T ATTENDED UNIVERSITY, OR BETTER YET, HAVEN'T ATTENDED PRIMARY SCHOOL BECAUSE THEIR MINDS ARE PURE.
HOW BROADLY IS THAT THEORY TAKEN IN TURKEY TODAY?
WELL, THAT THEORY IS QUITE INTERESTING, ON ONE HAND THEY ROMANTICIZE THE PEOPLE BUT THEY ALSO DIVIDE PEOPLE INTO CAMPS BECAUSE THERE IS THE REAL PEOPLE FOR THEM, AND THEN THERE'S THE PEOPLE THEY DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT SUCH AS MINORITIES, IMMIGRANTS, FEMINISTS, ANYONE CAN BE LABELED AS THE OTHER PEOPLE.
AND ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY MAKE THIS DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE ELITE VERSUS PEOPLE.
BUT I THINK USUALLY POPULISTS DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ELITISM AS LONG AS THEY ARE THE NEW ELITE.
IF THEY CAN BECOME THE NEW ELITE, THEY'RE FINE WITH THAT.
SO THE OVERALL EMANCIPATION OF THE PEOPLE, EVEN A UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR SAYING I WOULD RATHER TRUST THE PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT CORRUPT OR THEY'RE NOT WESTERNIZED, AND I FIND THAT'S VERY DANGEROUS.
AS WE KNOW TODAY, THERE ARE SO MANY CASES AGAINST PARTICULAR PLACES IN TURKEY.
THEY HAVE THEIR PASSPORTS CONFISCATED AND MANY ARE ARRESTED.
AND IT'S GONE FAR WEST, THERE IS THAT FEELING IN GREAT BRITAIN, IN BREXIT, PEOPLE HAVE SAID THEY'VE HAD ENOUGH OF EXPERTS.
IT'S CLEARLY SOMETHING THAT'S IN POPULIST CIRCLES IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL.
BUT I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK, AND WE HAVE AN IMAGE OF YOUR OWN PICTURE BEING PUT ON FIRE.
YOU ARE IN DANGER THERE, YOU DON'T GO BACK.
WITH THE NEW MAYOR OF ISTANBUL, HOW WIDE A NET WILL HE CAST IN TERMS OF REFORM AND TRYING TO GO BACK.
CAN YOU SEE YOURSELF BEING ABLE TO GO BACK?
I THINK TURKEY IS A FASCINATING COUNTRY.
IT IS INCREDIBLY COMPLEX.
AND I WOULD NEVER IDENTIFY THE GOVERNMENT OR THE PEOPLE, THEY'RE NOT THE SAME THING.
UNFORTUNATELY, THE SAD PART ABOUT COUNTRIES SUCH AS MY MOTHERLAND, THE PEOPLE ARE USUALLY AHEAD OF THE GOVERNMENT.
MAYBE WE DON'T HEAR THE VOICES, BUT THERE IS A ROBUST CIVIL SOCIETY IN TURKEY.
DESPITE THE BRAIN DRAIN, THERE ARE DEMOCRATS, YOUNG PEOPLE, STUDENTS, WOMEN.
IF YOU TALK TO THEM, YOU WILL FEEL INSPIRED.
IF WE LOOK AT POLITICS, IT'S QUITE DEMORALIZING.
I SEE THE OUTCOME OF LOCAL ELECTIONS AS A PROGRESSIVE STEP AND HOPEFULLY WE'LL HAVE A PROPER, PLURALISTIC DEMOCRACY IN EUROPE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE NEED.
THANK YOU, ELIF SHAFAK.
THANKS A LOT.
> NOW WE TURN FROM ONE FEMALE AUTHOR MAKING WAVES TO ANOTHER.
IT'S NOT OFTEN A DEBUT NOVEL BECOMES AN OVERNIGHT BESTSELLER.
BUT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO KRISTEN ARNETT.
HER BOOK, 'MOSTLY DEAD THINGS,' IS A GRIPPING TALE OF GRIEF, FAMILY, AND IDENTITY AS THE FAMILY COMES TO GRIPS WITH A SHOCKING SUICIDE.
IF THAT DOESN'T GRAB YOU, IT'S ALSO SET IN A TAXIDERMY SHOP.
KRISTEN ARNETT SAT DOWN TO TALK ABOUT HER OWN INFLUENCE OVER THE WRITING.
THANKS FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU.
AND CONGRATULATIONS FOR BEING ON THE BEST-SELLING LIST.
'MOSTLY DEAD THINGS,' HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE THIS BOOK?
MY PITCH FOR THIS BOOK IS A LESBIAN TAXIDERMIST TAKES OVER A TAXIDERMY SHOP AFTER HER FATHER KILLS HIMSELF.
AND, LIKE, TA-DAH.
IT SOUNDS LIKE A HEAVY BOOK THAT DECONSTRUCTS LOSS AND GRIEF AND DESIRE AND IS ALSO FUN AND FUNNY.
YEAH.
THIS KIND OF DICHOTOMY, I WAS HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH SOMEBODY ABOUT WORDS LIKE, YOU EXPERIENCE GRIEF LIKE NOT IN A SILO.
WHEN YOU'RE EXPERIENCING GRIEF, ALL THESE OTHER THINGS ARE GOING ON TOO, WHICH INCLUDES SOMETIMES THINGS BEING FUNNY.
I ALSO THINK FLORIDA IS KIND OF RIPE FOR THAT KIND OF HUMOR TOO.
SO HOPEFULLY PEOPLE FIND SOMETHING TO LAUGH AT IN THERE.
I DID.
THIS IS FUNDAMENTALLY A STORY ABOUT LOVE, ABANDONMENT, GRIEF.
WHAT EXPERIENCES IN YOUR OWN LIFE DID YOU PULL FROM, DID YOU RELY ON, TO CREATE THOSE NARRATIVES?
WELL, I SPECIFICALLY THINK I THOUGHT ABOUT FAMILY DYNAMICS.
BECAUSE GROWING UP, MY FAMILY LIVED IN FLORIDA, I WAS THINKING TOO, LIKE, WHAT ARE THE DYNAMICS IN A FAMILY AND WHAT THINGS BOTHER US WHEN THEY CHANGE AND WHAT THINGS SHOULD CHANGE AND DON'T.
I WAS THINKING ABOUT THAT IN MY OWN LIFE.
MOST SPECIFICALLY I BROUGHT IN FROM MY OWN LIFE HOW I SEE FLORIDA.
I THINK VERY SPECIFICALLY THE PLACE IN THERE IS ME, AND HOW I WANTED READERS TO BE ABLE TO ENGAGE WITH HOW I LOOK AROUND OUTSIDE IN CENTRAL FLORIDA, BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE FLORIDA, YOU'RE INTERACTING PHYSICALLY WITH THE LANDSCAPE.
THE LAND IS ALWAYS TRYING TO CREEP AND TAKE ITSELF BACK.
THE AIR IS SO HEAVY, IT'S LIKE PRESSING ON YOUR SKIN.
IT'S LIKE A PHYSICAL EMBRACE OF BEING THERE.
SO THAT STUFF IS DEFINITELY FROM MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, IN TRYING TO SEE IF I COULD GET READERS TO SEE THROUGH THE LENS OF HOW I SEE THE STATE.
SO THAT STUFF IS VERY MUCH ME.
YOUR BOOK IS SO MUCH ABOUT FAMILY DYNAMICS.
HOW DOES THAT PLAY OUT, WHAT DOES THAT FAMILY LOOK LIKE IN THIS BOOK?
I WANTED IT TO BE LIKE -- IT'S A LARGE FAMILY THAT ALL LIVE NEAR EACH OTHER.
I WANTED IT TO BE VERY SPRAWLING.
I TRIED TO DIG INTO A FAMILY THAT ALL LIVE NEAR EACH OTHER, THEY'RE IN EACH OTHER'S SPACES ALL THE TIME.
I HAVE, YOU KNOW, MY PRO T PROTAGONIST, HER RELATIONSHIP WITH HER FATHER WHO HAS KILLED HIMSELF, WHO RAN THE TAXIDERMY SHOP.
AS ADULTS, THEY'RE NOT HEESTRAND BUT DON'T HAVE MUCH OF A RELATIONSHIP.
HER BROTHER HAS MARRIED HER CHILDHOOD SWEETHEART SO THERE'S A CONFLICT WITH HOW THE TWO OF THEM INTERACT WITH THIS LOVE INTEREST THEY SHARE THROUGHOUT THE BOOK.
THEN HER MOTHER, WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT HER IN THE PAST, WORKS AS THIS KIND OF -- HERE'S MY MOTHER AND HERE'S HOW SHE BEHAVES.
IN THE PRESENT SHE'S BEHAVING IN STRANGE WAYS AS SHE'S GRIEVING HER HUSBAND.
SHE IS THE CREATE PORNOGRAPHIC T TAXIDERMY IN THE SHOP.
SHE SEES IT AS A SPECIFIC ART SHE LEARNED FROM HER FATHER.
IT'S STRANGE THING GOING ON, BUT ALL OF THEM PROCESSING GRIEF IN DINNER WAYS.
WHAT SPARKED YOUR INTEREST IN TAXIDERMY?
I ENCOUNTERED IN FLORIDA AND NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT, HOW THERE'S LIZARDS ALL OVER FLORIDA.
THE TAXIDERMY WAS ALWAYS AROUND ME, I KEPT RUNNING INTO PEOPLE WHO WERE HUNTERS AND KEPT KILLS AND TROPHIES.
AT MY CHURCH I GREW UP IN, THERE WERE DEER MOUNTS ON THE WALL.
I WAS WRITING THIS SHORT STORY ABOUT A BROTHER AND A SISTER TAXIDERMING A GOAT AND THEY SCREWED IT UP REALLY BAD.
I LOOKED IT UP ON THE INTERNET AND GOT INTERESTED IN ART THAT PEOPLE SPEND A LOT OF TIME ON BECAUSE TO CREATE TAXIDERMY, YOU HAVE TO SPEND A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME CRAFTING IT, AND JUST TO TURN IT INTO SOMETHING BIZARRE OR TO LAUGH AT.
THEN I FELL DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE OF LOOKING AT WHAT TAXIDERMY ENTAILS, AND GOT FASCINATED BY ALL THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF IT THERE WAS AND ALSO WHO PERFORMANCE TAXIDERMY.
IT'S A VERY GENDERED ART, AS YOU SEE IT.
EXTREMELY.
THE PEOPLE I ENCOUNTE COUCOUNTE RESEARCH, IT'S PREDOMINANT MY MEN, AND SPECIFIC KINDS OF MEN, SPECIFICALLY MASCULINE MEN, MEN WHO HUNT, THEY HUNT THEIR OWN ANIMALS OR KILLS AND TURN THEM INTO TROPHIES.
THESE MEN I WAS ENCOUNTERING, SPECIFICALLY IN THESE CHAT ROOMS, THEY WOULD BE IN THESE CHAT ROOMS TALKING ABOUT LIKE TIPS AND TRICKS, HACKS, PUN INTENDED.
AND THE WAY THAT THEY WOULD TALK ABOUT IT WAS SO TENDER, IT WAS ALMOST THIS KIND OF INTIMACY OR THE WAY THEY TREATED IT, VERY PRECIOUS KIND OF ART.
BUT I WAS LIKE, OH, THIS IS ALLOWING THEM TO HAVE ACCESS TO ART IN A WAY THAT'S TRADITIONALLY FOR THESE MEN VIEWED AS VERY FEMININE AND THEY WOULDN'T HAVE ACCESS OR BE ABLE TO TALK THE LANGUAGE LIKE THEY'RE USING RIGHT NOW.
I JUST GOT FASCINATED WITH IT, SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE IN MY BOOK AS WELL I HAVE A FEMALE PROTAGONIST.
I WAS GOING TO SAY, HEARING YOU TALK ABOUT IT, IT'S EASY TO IMAGINE.
THE BOOK OPENS, YOU HAVE A FATHER TEACHING HIS TWO CHILDREN, HIS DAUGHTER AND HIS SON, ABOUT TAXIDERMY.
LATER THE DAUGHTER FINDS HER DAUGHTER DEAD IN THE SHOP, NOT GIVING A LOT WAY, BUT SHE'S THE ONE WHO TAKES OVER THE BUSINESS.
DID YOU AT ANY POINT THINK ABOUT HAVING A MALE PROTAGONIST OR DID YOU ALWAYS KNOW THAT YOU WANTED IT TO BE A WOMAN WHO WAS ALSO A T TAXIDERMIST?
NO, I ALWAYS WANTED IT TO BE A QUEER WOMAN.
I'M INTERESTED IN THE QUEER WOMEN'S PERSPECTIVE AND DOMESTIC ROLES FOR QUEER WOMEN, WHAT DOES IT MEAN IF YOU GROW UP IN A VERY GENDERED HOUSEHOLD WHERE ROLES ARE DEFINED.
IS THAT THE TYPE OF HOUSEHOLD YOU GREW UP IN?
DEFINITELY, YES.
MY FAMILY WAS VERY EVANGELICAL.
I WASN'T ALLOWED TO HUNT, I WAS ALLOWED TO SEW AND TAKE SEWING CLASSES.
SO THE STUFF MY BROTHER DID WAS VERY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT I DID, BECAUSE IT WAS VERY GENDERED, YOU DO THIS, MICHAEL DOES THIS, MY BROTHER.
AND I'M ALWAYS VERY INTERESTED TOO IN KIND OF SEEING WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE WHEN WOMEN TAKE OVER THOSE KINDS OF THINGS, SPECIFICALLY QUEER?
. IF THERE'S TWO WOMEN IN A HOUSEHOLD, WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE, WHEN YOU'VE GROWN UP WITH TH THESE LEHETERONORMATIVE ROLES.
SHE ENDS UP BEHAVING LIKE HER FATHER, TAKING OVER THE MANTLE OF PATRIARCH OF THE FAMILY.
YOUR PROTAGONIST, A QUEER WOMAN, YOU SAID THIS DIDN'T WANT TO BE A COMING-OUT STORY.
YES.
WHY?
AS A READER, I MEAN, GROWING UP, BUT EVEN NOW AS A READER, I'M ALWAYS LOOKING FOR BOOKS WHERE I CAN SEE QUEERNESS IN THE EVERYDAY.
BECAUSE I THINK, RIGHT, THERE'S DEFINITELY ROOM FOR COMING-OUT NARRATIVES AND THEY'RE IMPORTANT.
USUALLY IT'S LIKE A MOMENT IN TIME FOR QUEER PERSON.
AND SOMETIMES I WONDER WHO THE QUEER NARRATIVE OF THE COMING-OUT STORY IS BEING WRITTEN FOR.
LIKE IS THAT BEING WRITTEN FOR LIKE A QUEER AUDIENCE?
NO, SOMETIMES IT'S WRITTEN FOR A STRAIGHT AUDIENCE SO THEY CAN LIKE KIND OF BE IN THE TRAUMA, BECAUSE COMING OUT IS USUALLY VERY TRAUMATIC.
A AND, I DON'T KNOW, IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT I'M INTERESTED IN AS A READER, THE DAY-TO-DAY LIVED EXPERIENCE OF BEING GAY.
AND GRAPPLING WITH VULNERABILITY.
YOU HAVE SAID SOFTNESS IS A SCARY THING.
YES.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
AT THE SAME TIME TOO I WAS THINKING A LOT ABOUT TENDERNESS AND VULNERABILITY.
AND THE IDEA OF OPENING YOURSELF UP TO THAT IS A SCARY THING, IF YOU'RE A PERSON WHO LIKES TO BE IN CONTROL OF EMOTIONS AND YOUR FEELINGS.
BECAUSE ALSO, TOO, IF YOU'VE DECIDED YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE HURT BY THINGS, OR BE TOUGH, THEN IT'S EASIER TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE.
IT'S NOT EASIER TO DEAL WITH EMOTIONS, THEN IT JUST BECOMES AVOIDANT.
I TRY TO EXPLORE SOME OF THAT STUFF, I TOOK THE IDEA OF BEING A CONTROL FREAK TO THE EXTREME.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN WHEN YOU ARE LITERALLY TRYING TO CONTROL LIKE NOT ONLY YOURSELF BUT EVERYONE AROUND YOU AND THEIR LIVES AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND DICTATING HOW THEY SHOULD FEEL AND THINK?
ALSO FOR ME, BECAUSE I THINK THINGS LIKE THAT ARE ABSURD AND VERY FUNNY, SO I FOUND HER -- BECAUSE SHE'S NOT LIKE JOKING AROUND A LOT OF THE TIME.
I FOUND HUMOR IN THE CHARACTER AND HOW SHE USUALLY IS LIKE NOT SEEING THE JOKE.
AND I THOUGHT THAT THAT WAS VERY FUNNY, LIKE TO BE THAT KIND OF LEVEL OF CONTROL FREAK WHERE YOU'RE LIKE TRYING TO TELL EVERYONE IN YOUR LIFE HOW THEY NEED TO BEHAVE, IS LIKE TO ME INHERENTLY FUNNY.
THAT'S HILARIOUS.
YOU CAN'T CONTROL PEOPLE LIKE THAT.
WHEN YOU SOLD THIS NOVEL, YOU WENT TO CELEBRATE.
YES.
AT SE7-ELEVEN.
YES, I DID.
YOU WRITE, I THINK OF THAT STORE AND THINK OF THEM AS MY FAMILY.
YES.
HOW DID THAT COME TO TAKE PLACE?
I LIVE VERY CLOSE TO MY 7-ELEVEN.
I CALL IT THE BERMUDA TRIANGLE, MY 7-ELEVEN, MY PUBLIX ACROSS THE STREET.
I FOUND MYSELF GOING THERE MORE AND MORE OFTEN LIKE TO GET BEER OR SNACKS.
AND THEN I MADE FRIENDS WITH THE PEOPLE THAT WORKED THERE AND I JUST FOUND MYSELF KIND OF -- I STARTED JOKINGLY CALLING IT MY NEIGHBORHOOD BAR, BECAUSE I HANG OUT HERE A LOT, IT FELT VERY COMFORTABLE TO ME.
ALSO THE SAMENESS OF IT, THE SMELL IS ALWAYS THE SAME, LIKE HOW THINGS LOOK, THE PEOPLE COMING IN AND OUT, WHAT'S GOING ON.
IT BECAME THIS VERY COMFORTABLE THING.
AND THE MORE I FOUND MYSELF THERE, THE MORE IT FELT LIKE, OH, THIS FEELS LIKE WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO SPEND TIME WITH FAMILY, THAT KIND OF LEVEL OF COMFORT OR WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE HOME.
WHICH YOU FELT WAS MISSING IN YOUR OWN LIFE.
YEAH.
BECAUSE I MEAN, I DON'T HAVE THAT RELATIONSHIP ANYMORE WITH MY FAMILY.
BUT THAT'S SORT OF A MORE RECENT THING FOR YOU, RIGHT, THAT SEPARATION IS AN ADULT SEPARATION?
YES, IT IS.
IT HAPPENED PRETTY CLOSE TO AFTER THE ELECTION, I WOULD SAY.
CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED?
UMM, I HAD ALWAYS HAD STRUGGLES WITH MY FAMILY AND FELT LIKE -- I WOULD BEHAVE IN WAYS THAT MADE IT SO IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR THEM TO DEAL WITH THINGS.
I WOULD ATTEND EVENTS AND JUST WOULDN'T TALK ABOUT THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE THEM UNHAPPY OR UNCOMFORTABLE.
AND THEN THE LONGER THAT DRAGGED ON, THE MORE I FELT MYSELF FEELING TRAPPED OR KIND OF PINNED INTO A CORNER BECAUSE THE BELIEFS THAT MY FAMILY HAVE ARE WILDLY DIFFERENT THAN THE ONES THAT I HAVE.
AND BEAR HOLE STAYING WITH ME HAS BEEN POLITICS SHOULDN'T DIVIDE US.
LIKE, IT'S JUST POLITICS, AND THAT'S A THING THEY'VE ALWAYS KIND OF SAID.
AFTER THE ELECTION, I COULDN'T HEAR THAT FROM THEM ANYMORE.
WHEN I TRIED TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS BUT WHY IT'S NOT JUST POLITICS, IT'S ALSO MY LIFE, MY LIFE AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES, AND THAT'S A BIG DEAL, THEY COULD NOT HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH ME IN WHICH THEY WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THAT WAS SOMETHING.
THEY COULDN'T HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH ME WHERE THEY WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE OR ENGAGE WITH THE FACT THAT I AM GAY.
SO WE WERE AT AN IMPASSE.
SO WE CAN'T HAVE A RELATIONSHIP UNTIL, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE WILLING TO LIKE COMPROMISE AND TALK WITH ME ABOUT WHY THESE THINGS ARE PROBLEMATIC, AND THAT I CAN'T BE AROUND YOU IF YOU THINK THE WAY THAT YOU THINK AND BELIEVE THESE THINGS AND ESPOUSE THEM.
SO WE CAME TO THIS CROSSROADS, AND THAT'S WHAT OCCURRED.
YOU'RE ALREADY WRITING YOUR NEXT NOVEL.
YES.
WHAT CAN YOU TELL US?
I HAVE THE MESSY GUTS OF IT, THE DRAFT.
THIS ONE IS MORE -- I WOULD SAY THIS BOOK IS MORE FOCUSED ON THE SPIRIT VERSUS THE BODY, LIKE LESS THE PHYSICAL AND MORE THE INTERIOR.
AND ALSO MORE FOCUSED ON RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN PARTNERS AND LESS FOCUSED ON RELATIONSHIPS WITHIN FAMILIES.
SO --
KRISTEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
THANK YOU.
NO DOUBT HER FANS WILL BE EAGERLY AWAITING THAT NEXT NOVEL.
THAT'S FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & CO.' ON PBS AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.