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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
> THE TALIBAN BREAKTHROUGH INTO AFGHANISTAN'S SECOND LARGEST CITY.
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY AS THE U.S. WITHDRAWS?
THEN --
AFTER YEARS AND YEARS OF INFRASTRUCTURE WEEK, WE'RE ON THE CUSP OF AN INFRASTRUCTURE DECADE.
HOW TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF INVESTMENT COULD TRANSFORM AMERICA.
PLUS --
ALL OVER THIS PLANET, WILD FIRES ARE BURNING US ALIVE.
FEELING THE HEAT.
HER NEW DOCUMENTARY ON CALIFORNIA'S DEADLIEST FIRES.
ALSO AHEAD --
IT IS PRETTY STUNNING.
FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY AND WALTER ISAACSON DISCUSS TRUMP'S EFFORTS TO SUBVERT THE 2020 ELECTION.
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> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.
THE TALIBAN HAVE JUST TAKEN CONTROL OF HERRA, AFGHANISTAN'S THIRD LARGEST CITY.
NOW THIS HAPPENED JUST MOMENTS AFTER THEY CHARGED INTO ITS SECOND LARGEST.
LOCAL OFFICIALS SAYING THERE IS FIGHTING ON THE STREETS AS MILITANTS BATTLE GOVERNMENT FORCES.
IT IS YET ANOTHER DAY OF MAJOR GAINS FOR THE TALIBAN, WHO HAVE ALSO TAKEN CONTROL OF THE CITY OF GAZNI THIS MORNING.
THAT MEANS 11 CAPITALS HAVE FALLEN TO THEM IN ONE WEEK.
THIS MAP HIGHLIGHTS HOW DIRE THE SITUATION IS AND IT IS LIKELY TO GET WORST.
WARNING THAT THE CAPITAL OF KABUL COULD FALL BY MID-NOVEMBER ACCORDING TO OFFICIALS.
JOINING US IS A SENIOR FELLOW FOR THE CENTER ON INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION AND SERVED AS SENIOR ADVISER TO THE U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR PAKISTAN AND AFGHANISTAN.
ALSO, A JOURNALIST WHO HAS WRITTEN ABOUT THE TALIBAN.
WELCOME BOTH OF YOU.
BARNETT, LET'S BEGIN WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU HAD BEEN SOMEONE WHO HAD BEEN SUPPORTIVE OF THE PRESIDENT'S DECISION TO WITHDRAW TROOPS.
OBVIOUSLY WE KNEW THAT THAT WOULD BE MET WITH SOME RESISTANCE FROM THE TALIBAN.
DID YOU EXPECT THIS TO HAPPEN SO QUICKLY?
NO.
I MEAN, I'M NOT SURPRISED THAT THE TALIBAN WOULD TRY TO DO THIS, BUT I HAVE BEEN SURPRISED AT THE SPEED OF THE DISINTEGRATION OF THE AFGHAN NATIONAL DEFENSE AND SECURITY FORCES WHICH WERE -- WHICH THE UNITED STATES SPENT, I DON'T KNOW, HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF BUILDING UP.
AND IN HIS SPEECH, PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID THEY HAVE THE MONEY, THE EQUIPMENT AND THE TRAINING THAT THEY NEED TO RESIST.
AND I BELIEVED THAT AT THAT TIME.
SO I'M STILL NOT -- I STILL AM NOT -- I STILL DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND WHY THIS RATHER LARGE AND WELL EQUIPPED ARMY IS DISAPPEARING SO QUICKLY.
AND IN ADDITION TO THE SYMBOLISM HERE OF TAKING SO MANY CITIES IN SUCH A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, LET ME TURN TO YOU BECAUSE WHAT DOES THIS SUGGEST THAT THE FUTURE HOLDS FOR THE COUNTRY THERE?
AND CAN YOU POSSIBLY ANSWER BARNETT'S QUESTION OF WHAT HAPPENED TO AFGHAN FORCES IN TERMS OF RESISTING THE TALIBAN?
WELL, I THINK ONE OF THE MAJOR CAUSES IS THE LACK OF LEADERSHIP.
THE PRESIDENT HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE THE KIND OF LEADERSHIP THAT THE MILITARY NEEDED AND EVEN THAT THE POPULATION NEEDED.
HE'S BARELY LEFT HIS OFFICE.
ONLY THE OTHER DAY HE LEFT FOR ONE VISIT TO THE NORTHERN CITY, BUT HE HASN'T BEEN OUT.
SINCE THEN HE'S HARDLY GIVEN ANY PREP TALKS TO THE POPULATION AND NOW THERE IS A HUGE CRISIS IN KABUL ITSELF WITH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF REFUGEES POURING IN FROM OUTLYING AREAS, EVEN COMING IN FROM THE NORTH WHICH IS NOW ENTIRELY IN THE HANDS OF THE TALIBAN.
SO YOU HAVE NOW REFUGEE CRISIS.
AND REMEMBER AFGHANISTAN IS LANDLOCKED, SO THERE IS NOW REALLY A STRANGLE HOLD THAT THE TALIBAN HAVE OVER THE CITY.
AND IT'S HAPPENING IN THE MIDST OF A PANDEMIC, LET'S NOT FORGET ABOUT THAT.
BARNETT, IN TERMS OF KABUL, WE TALK ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF KHANDAHAR.
BUT KABUL IS DIFFERENT AND THERE ARE REPORTS OF REAL CONCERN FOR THE CITY WITHIN THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE ADMINISTRATION.
'THE NEW YORK TIMES' HEADLINE, U.S. ASK TALIBAN TO SPARE ITS FIGHT IN COMING FOR KABUL.
IT DOES APPEAR AS IF THE TALIBAN IS LEADING THE CHARGE HERE.
YES.
I MEAN, KABUL IS NOT COMPARABLE TO ANY OTHER CITY IN AFGHANISTAN.
IT HAS SIX OR SEVEN MILLION PEOPLE.
THAT IS TO SAY IT IS THE SIZE OF LOS ANGELES.
KANDAHAR HAS HALF A MILLION PEOPLE.
IT'S HUGE.
IT HAS INFRASTRUCTURE AND SO ON.
AND IT HAS A POPULATION WITH A FAIR, VERY LARGE SHARE OF ANTI-TALIBAN GROUPS.
SO IT WOULD BE A MUCH BIGGER OPERATION IN TAKING SMALLER CITIES.
BUT THE FACT IS KABUL, AS AHMED SAID, AFGHANISTAN IS LANDLOCKED AND THE TALIBAN HAVE CAPTURED NEARLY ALL THE BORDER POINTS SO CUTTING OFF THE GOVERNMENT FROM ITS REVENUES AND FROM TRADE.
IT STILL HAS ONE WITH PAKISTAN.
KABUL IS AN ISLAND IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS LANDLOCKED COUNTRY, AND IT DEPENDS ON THE THINGS COMING OVER THE BORDER FOR ITS SUPPLIES AND SO ON.
SO IF THE TALIBAN DO TAKE THE EAST, WHICH WE HAVEN'T HEARD MUCH ABOUT, WHICH IS THE MAIN SUPPLY ROUTE FROM PAKISTAN TO KABUL, THEN IT REALLY WILL BE ISOLATED.
WE HAVE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN ON THIS VERY ISSUE, AND THOUGH THERE DOES SEEM TO BE SURPRISE AND A LOT OF CONCERN WITHIN THE WHITE HOUSE, HE IS STANDING BY HIS DECISION AND SAYS HE HAS NO REGRETS OVER IT.
LET'S TAKE A LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID JUST A FEW DAYS AGO.
WE SPENT OVER A TRILLION DOLLARS, OVER 20 YEARS.
WE TRAINED AND EQUIPPED WITH MODERN EQUIPMENT OVER 300,000 AFGHAN FORCES.
AND AFGHAN LEADERS HAVE TO COME TOGETHER.
WE LOST THOUSANDS HAVE LOST TO DEATH AND INJURY, THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN PERSONNEL.
THEY'VE GOT TO FIGHT FOR THEMSELVES, FIGHT FOR THEIR NATION.
WELL, BARNETT, WE SEE HOW THAT FIGHTING HAS BEEN GOING IN JUST THE PAST FEW DAYS.
IF THAT'S A SIGN OF WHAT'S TO COME IN THE FUTURE, THERE ARE DARK DAYS AHEAD FOR AFGHANS.
THE PRESIDENT STANDS BY HIS DECISION.
DO YOU STANDBY YOUR EARLIER VIEW THAT IT WAS A RIGHT DECISION?
WELL, I THINK IN A CONTRADICTORY WAY, THE FACT THAT THE SECURITY FORCES ARE EVAPORATING LIKE THIS AFTER 20 YEARS OF BUILDING THEM UP AND TRAINING THEM SORT OF JUSTIFIES THE WITHDRAWAL.
THE SECURITY FORCES WERE SUPPOSED TO BE OUR TICKET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.
THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE OVER THE FIGHT.
YOU CAN'T SAY IT WAS EARLY AFTER 20 YEARS, AND IT WASN'T SUDDEN BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP AGREED TO DO THIS OVER A YEAR -- WELL OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AGO.
BUT APPARENTLY EVERYONE ACTED AS IF THEY WERE TOTALLY UNPREPARED FOR IT.
AND, YOU KNOW, THE FACT IS THE MILITARY, AS FAR AS I CAN SEE, TRAINED THE AFGHAN SECURITY -- THE U.S. MILITARY TRAINED THE AFGHAN SECURITY FORCES IN A MANNER WHICH ASSUMED THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD ALWAYS BE THERE BECAUSE THEY TRAINED THEM IN SUCH A WAY THAT FOR THEIR ENABLERS, AIR LIFT, LOGISTICS, INTELLIGENCE, COMMUNICATIONS AND SO ON, NOT COMBAT BUT ALL THOSE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE AN ARMY.
THEY NEEDED AMERICAN ADVISERS AND FOREIGN CONSULTANTS, FOREIGN CONTRACTORS TO CARRY OUT THESE FUNCTIONS BECAUSE THEY WERE -- THEY WERE UNABLE TO DO THAT THEMSELVES.
AND NOW THOSE PEOPLE HAVE LEFT.
THE ARMY, THE INDIVIDUALS IN IT, ARE WELL-TRAINED BUT APPARENTLY IT DOESN'T HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO ACT AS AN ARMY, IN ADDITION TO THE LACK OF LEADERSHIP TALKED ABOUT.
THAT LACK OF LEADERSHIP EXTENDS A BIT FURTHER IN THAT PRESIDENT GHANI AND THOSE AROUND HIM IN THE PALACE REFUSED TO BELIEVE THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS ACTUALLY GOING TO WITHDRAW FROM AFGHANISTAN, EVEN AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S -- PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO WENT TO THE SIGNS OF AN AGREEMENT.
SO DID NOT ADEQUATELY OR SERIOUSLY PREPARE AND DID NOT NEGOTIATE WITH THE TALIBAN AS IF THE REGIME WAS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE AT RISK.
RIGHT.
BUT MANY, YOURSELF INCLUDED, HAVE BEEN ARGUING FOR A REGIONAL STRATEGY AS WELL, RIGHT?
THAT THE ONUS WASN'T JUST ON THE UNITED STATES BUT ON NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES INCLUDING PAKISTAN.
AND THERE ARE AFGHANS TODAY WHO ARE BLAMING PAKISTAN FOR NOT DOING ENOUGH TO FIGHT BACK ON THE TALIBAN OR AT LEAST TO WARN THEM ABOUT THEIR POSITION AND ANY ADVANCES THEY MAY BE MAKING.
BUT LET ME TURN BACK TO YOU BECAUSE THERE IS A DEBATE AS TO WHAT, IF ANYTHING, WAS TO SHOW FOR THE 20 YEARS THAT THE U.S.
HAD BEEN IN AFGHANISTAN.
AND MANY, LIKE YOURSELF, ARGUE THAT THERE IS A LOT TO SHOW.
THERE WAS A LOT OF PROMISE THERE AND PARTICULARLY IN TERMS OF EDUCATION, IN WORK OPPORTUNITIES FOR GIRLS AND WOMEN AND JOURNALISTS.
AND YOU TALK ABOUT THIS IN A PIECE THAT YOU WROTE.
TODAY RADIO, TELEVISION, ONLINE MEDIA REACH ALL 34 PROVINCES.
FEMALE JOURNALISTS IN A COUNTRY THAT BARRED WOMEN IN EDUCATION NUMBER OVER 1,100.
WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM NOW?
THAT'S REALLY A HUGE QUESTION BECAUSE FOR THE FIRST TIME THERE HAVE BEEN A SORT OF DEVELOPMENT AT LEAST IN THE URBAN AREAS IN THE CITIES.
AND YOUNG PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR REALLY BENEFITTED FROM IT, FROM EDUCATION AND TRAVELING ABROAD ON SCHOLARSHIPS, ET CETERA.
AND THE REAL TRAGEDY IS THAT THIS WHOLE GENERATION THAT WAS A GREAT DEAL OF WESTERN MIND AND RESPECT ON BRINGING UP THESE YOUNGSTERS TO TAKE CHARGE OF THEIR COUNTRY, YOU NOW HAVE A GROUP OF TALIBAN WHICH WHEN THEY RAN THE COUNTRY IN THE '90s, THEY WERE EVEN INCAPABLE OF GOVERNANCE OF ANY KIND.
NOW LOOKING AT THE TALIBAN LEADERS, THERE IS VERY LITTLE TECHNICAL ABILITY TO GOVERN -- YOU KNOW, HOW THEY WILL GOVERN THEIR COUNTRY.
WE JUST DON'T SEE THE PERSONNEL TO DO THAT, WHICH OF COURSE MEANS THAT THERE WILL BE INCREASING INSECURITY.
BARNETT, I'LL LEAVE THE LAST WORD TO YOU, AND THAT IS JUST THE QUESTION OF WHAT, IF ANYTHING, CAME OUT OF THESE PEACE TALKS IN DOHA THAT WE HAD BEEN COVERING FOR SO MANY MONTHS BETWEEN AFGHAN OFFICIALS AND THE TALIBAN?
SO FAR NOTHING HAS COME AT THEM.
RIGHT NOW IN DOHA THERE IS A MEETING NOT JUST OF THE AFGHAN NEGOTIATORS ON BOTH SIDES BUT ALSO OF THE SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVES OF ALL THE MAJOR COUNTRIES CONCERNED AND THEY ARE TRYING TO COME UP WITH A COMMON INITIATIVE WHICH WILL INCLUDE U.S., CHINA, INDIA, PAKISTAN AND IRAN, WHICH OF COURSE IS AS DIFFICULT AS IT SOUNDS, BUT THEY HAVE SOME CONVERGING INTEREST IN AFGHANISTAN.
HOWEVER, THERE ARE REASONS -- I'M NOT PREDICTING THIS.
THE TALIBAN MIGHT MAKE A HUGE MISTAKE AND TRY TO CAPTURE THE CITY OF KABUL MILITARILY.
AND THAT WOULD CAUSE AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF DESTRUCTION AND SUFFERING EVEN IF THEY ULTIMATELY SUCCEEDED.
THESE ADVANCES ARE HAPPENING QUICKLY, BY THE DAY AND EVEN BY THE HOUR AS WE HAVE SEEN DEVELOP TODAY.
I WANT TO THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.
WE APPRECIATE IT.
THANK YOU.
> WE TURN NOW TO CORRESPONDENT CLARISSA WARD WHO IS IN KABUL.
WHAT ARE YOU SEEING AND HEARING FROM YOUR SOURCES ON THE GROUND ABOUT THESE ADVANCES THAT WE'RE SEEING FROM THE TALIBAN?
WELL, IT IS ABSOLUTELY AN ALARMING SITUATION.
NO ONE COULD HAVE PREDICTED JUST HOW QUICKLY THE DOMINOS ARE FALLING.
HARAT HAS FALLEN, THE COUNTRY'S THIRD LARGEST CITY.
THE TALIBAN THERE CONFISCATING LARGE AMOUNTS OF MILITARY HARDWARE AND WEAPONRY.
AND KANDAHAL, THE SPIRITUAL BIRTHPLACE OF THE TALIBAN, THE ORIGINAL CAPITAL FOR THE TALIBAN'S ISLAMIC EM RIT IS ON THE BRINK OF FALLING.
WE WERE AT A WEDDING HALL THAT HAD BEEN TRANSFORMED INTO A FRONT LINE POSITION FOR AFGHAN FORCES.
THAT POSITION NOW HAS BEEN COMPLETELY OVERRUN BY THE TALIBAN.
AND THE MP WHO WE SPOKE TO WHILE WE WERE THERE, I HAVE JUST SPOKEN TO HIM AGAIN.
HE SAYS THE CITY HASN'T FALLEN YET, BUT IT WILL.
HE SAID THAT THERE ARE TEAMS OF 12 TO 15 FIGHTERS OF THE TALIBAN WHO HAVE ESSENTIALLY BROKEN THROUGH THE FRONT LINE IN THE WESTERN PART OF THE CITY AND ARE NOW CAUSING CHAOS, POPPING UP IN THE CENTRAL SQUARE, POPPING UP OUTSIDE THE GOVERNOR'S HOUSE, SHOOTING IN THE AIR AND REALLY CONTRIBUTING TO THIS SENSE OF A COMPLETE LACK OF CONTROL.
THE SITUATION HERE IN KABUL IS STILL RELATIVELY STABLE.
IT'S CALM.
I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SKEPTICAL THAT THE TALIBAN WOULD TRY TO PUSH THEIR LUCK, IF YOU WILL, BY MAKING AN ADVANCE ON THE CITY.
BUT STILL PEOPLE HERE SEE THE WRITING ON THE WALL, AND THEY ARE DESPERATE NOW TO GET OUT OF THE COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY ANYONE WHO HAS WORKED WITH THE MILITARY, WHO HAS WORKED WITH THE U.S. EMBASSY, WHO HAS WORKED WITH NGOs OR WESTERN PUBLICATIONS.
SO THERE IS DEFINITELY A GROWING SENSE OF DREAD AND PANIC IN MUCH OF THE COUNTRY.
OKAY.
AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT PEOPLE ARE BEING KILLED IN THE WAKE OF THE U.S. WITHDRAWAL THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE GOVERNMENT, THAT THE HEAD OF COMMUNICATIONS THERE JUST A FEW DAYS AGO.
IN TERMS OF HOW THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND ARE REACTING, WE SPEND SO MUCH TIME FOCUSSING ON WOMEN AND GIRLS WHO HAVE MADE SUCH LARGE INROADS OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES, HOW APPREHENSIVE ARE THEY ABOUT WHAT'S TO COME?
I THINK IT DEPENDS WHERE YOU ARE IN THE COUNTRY.
BUT IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT YOUNG WOMEN IN URBAN CENTERS WHO ARE EDUCATED AND WHO OVER THE 20 YEARS HAVE ENJOYED SOME REAL ADVANCEMENTS IN THEIR LIVES IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO WORK AND BEING ABLE TO LEAVE THE HOUSE AND BEING ABLE TO GET AN EDUCATION, THEY'RE OF COURSE DEEPLY, DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS.
AND, YOU KNOW, YOU SPEAK TO SOME OF THESE WOMEN AND THERE IS THIS WRENCHING KIND OF SENSE OF HOW DO YOU MAKE THE CHOICE BETWEEN STAYING IN A COUNTRY THAT YOU LOVE AND THAT YOU CARE ABOUT AND THAT YOU WANT TO SERVE AND WANT TO CONTRIBUTE TO BUT ALSO KNOWING YOU CAN'T HAVE A PROPER LIFE ANYMORE IN THAT COUNTRY IF INDEED THE TALIBAN DOES COMPLETELY TAKEOVER.
BY THE WAY, I SHOULD ADD THAT THAT'S A LUXURIOUS POSITION TO BE IN.
MANY OTHER WOMEN DON'T HAVE THE OPTION OF LEAVING AT ALL, AND THEY ARE LOOKING POTENTIALLY AT A VERY BLEAK FUTURE INDEED.
OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, I'M THINKING RURAL AREAS WHERE WOMEN DON'T TEND TO BE EDUCATED.
FOR THEM, IT IS UNLIKELY TO HAVE AS MUCH OF AN IMPACT ON THEIR LIFE.
BUT FOR MANY OTHERS, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY A SENSE OF REAL DREAD.
AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE JUST HEARD.
IT SOUNDED LIKE GUNSHOTS OR SOMETHING BEHIND YOU, BUT PLEASE STAY SAFE.
GUNSHOT, YEAH.
WE ARE SO HAPPY AND LUCKY TO HAVE YOU ON THE GROUND THERE.
WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THE STORY WITH YOU.
THANK YOU.
NOW WE TURN TO THE U.S.
DOMESTIC AGENDA WHERE A GIGANTIC INVESTMENT IN INFRASTRUCTURE COULD BE AROUND THE CORNER.
$1 TRILLION BILL.
ON ITS HEELS WAS A $3.5 TRILLION BUDGET BLUEPRINT.
THIS ONE, HOWEVER, IS A LOT MORE PAR PARTISAN, AND DEMOCRATS ARE HOPING TO PUSH IT THROUGH IN A PROCESS KNOWN AS RECONCILIATION.
THIS LEVEL OF INVESTMENT IS A THROWBACK TO THE ERA DEFINING WORK OF PRESIDENTS LIKE FDR WHOSE NEW DEAL PROGRAMS CHANGED THE FACE OF AMERICA IN THE 1930s.
SO LET'S DIG INTO WHAT'S IN THESE BILLS WITH HEIDI HEITKAMP, THE FORMER DEMOCRATIC SENATOR FROM NORTH DAKOTA.
SENATOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON WHAT IS APPROPRIATELY DESCRIBED A HISTORIC MOMENT HERE.
THIS IS SOMETHING THE PRESIDENT SOUGHT OUT TO ACHIEVE EARLY IN ADMINISTRATOR.
HE HAD MANY NAY SAYERS, MANY IN HIS OWN PARTY.
HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THIS WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT BIPARTISAN $1 TRILLION DEAL.
THIS IS HUGE FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN.
HE PROMISED TO BE A PRESIDENT FOR EVERYONE.
HE PROMISED TO BRING THE COUNTRY TOGETHER AND DO BIPARTISAN DEALS.
THE FACT THIS WAS SO BROADLY BIPARTISAN IS HUGE.
HE'S GOT TO GET IT THROUGH THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES YET, AND THERE IS SOME PUSHBACK FROM MORE PROGRESSIVE MEMBERS THERE.
BUT THIS IS HUGE.
AND YOU CAN TELL HOW BIG IT IS IN TERMS OF A POLITICAL VICTORY BY HOW MUCH THE FORMER PRESIDENT HATES THIS DEAL AND IS THREATENING REPUBLICANS WHO SUPPORTED IT.
IT IS QUITE STUNNING TO SEE 19 REPUBLICANS WERE ABLE TO IGNORE OR OVERCOME PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CONSTANT PUSH FOR THEM TO NOT PASS THIS BILL AND, YET, HERE WE ARE.
CAN YOU BREAK DOWN FOR US WHAT THIS MEANS FOR EVERY DAY AMERICANS?
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TRADITIONAL IN INFRASTRUCTURE HERE, ROADS, BRIDGES, INTERNET ACCESS, BROADBAND ACCESS AS WELL.
WELL, IN MY PART OF THE WORLD, WHICH IS RURAL AMERICA, THE INABILITY TO HAVE STABLE BROADBAND HAS REALLY DIMINISHED ECONOMIC CAPACITY TO GROW.
AND, SO, THAT'S NOT TRUE IN NORTH DAKOTA.
WE MADE HUGE INVESTMENTS HERE.
BUT THROUGHOUT THE REST OF THE COUNTRY IN RURAL AMERICA, THIS IS A HUGE PACKAGE AND HOPEFULLY WILL BRING HOPE AND SOME ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT TO RURAL AREAS.
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, YOU KNOW, THERE IS -- EVERYBODY IS CONCERNED ABOUT DEBT AND DEFICIT.
YOU CAN PASS ON DEBT BY NOT TAKING CARE OF YOUR INFRASTRUCTURE.
AND THIS IS REALLY FOR THAT NEXT GENERATION WHO WON'T HAVE TO PAY NOW FOR THE BRIDGES, WHO WILL INHERIT INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS MODERNIZED, WHETHER IT IS IN OUR MASS TRANSIT AND PASSENGER RAIL OR WHETHER IT IS JUST ROADS AND BRIDGES AND PREPARING FOR THE NEXT CENTURY.
AND, SO, I LIKEN THIS PACKAGE TO WHAT HAPPENED WHEN EISENHOWER PASSED THE INTERSTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM IN OUR COUNTRY.
AND, SO, THIS IS HUGE NOT ONLY FOR A BIPARTISAN WIN POLITICALLY FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN, BUT IT IS HUGE FOR ALL PARTS OF OUR COUNTRY.
THAT'S WHY YOU HAD 19 REPUBLICAN SENATORS SUPPORTING IT.
THEY CAN'T VERY WELL GO TO A RIBBON CUTTING FOR A NEW BRIDGE UNLESS THEY STOOD ON THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE AND VOTED FOR THIS BILL.
YET NOT ONE OF THOSE SENATORS VOTED FOR THE OTHER LARGER PACKAGE, THE $3.5 TRILLION PACKAGE SO-CALLED HUMAN INFRASTRUCTURE PACKAGE THAT MANY PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS SEE AS PERTINENT AND THE REASON THAT THEY ALLOWED AN AGREED TO THE INITIAL $1 TRILLION PACKAGE TO PASS WAS BECAUSE THEY INVESTED SO MUCH INTO THIS PACKAGE.
NOW REPUBLICANS ARE SAYING THAT THIS IS SOCIAL WELFARE AND THIS IS COSTING WAY TOO MUCH FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.
PRESIDENT BIDEN SEEMS TO THINK BOTH CAN PASS THROUGH.
LET'S TAKE A LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID.
IT'S NOT A SHORT-TERM STIMULUS.
IT'S A LONG-TERM INVESTMENT IN AMERICAN FAMILIES.
OUR REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES HAVE ARGUED THAT LONG-TERM INVESTMENTS IN PHYSICAL INFRASTRUCTURE WILL GROW THE ECONOMY AND REDUCE INFLATIONARY PRESSURES.
AND I THANK THEM FOR THAT.
THEY'RE EXACTLY RIGHT.
WE AGREE ON THAT.
SO THEY AGREE ON THAT, BUT NOT NECESSARILY THE LARGEST BILL.
AND THIS IS INCLUDING HEALTH CARE, EDUCATION, SUPPORTING FOR WORKING FAMILIES, CLIMATE MITIGATION.
HOW OPTIMISTIC ARE YOU THAT THE BILL IN ITS CURRENT FORM WILL PASS THROUGH THE SENATE AND CONGRESS?
WELL, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY THE RECONCILIATION PACKAGE HAS PASSED BY THE SLIMMEST OF MARGINS.
SO NOW THIS IS HEADED OVER TO THE HOUSE AND WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS THERE.
BUT IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE ONE OF THE BIG CHALLENGES WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS WITH LABOR.
ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE DON'T HAVE A ROBUST LABOR, NEW PEOPLE COMING INTO THE LABOR MARKET IS BECAUSE OF MANY OF THESE THINGS THAT ARE IN RECONCILIATION, WHETHER IT IS EXPANDING OUR K THROUGH -- OUR EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION, PAYING FOR DAY CARE.
A LOT OF THESE POLICIES ARE INCREDIBLY POPULAR WITH PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
I THINK HOW SUCCESSFUL THE DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO BE IS HOW SUCCESSFUL THEY ARE IN MESSAGING THIS.
IF THEY SEE THE MESSENGER LAID TO THE REPUBLICANS, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IS YOU WILL HEAR ABOUT INFLATION.
YOU WILL HEAR ABOUT DEFICIT AND DEBT, WHICH THEY DIDN'T CARE ABOUT FOR FOUR YEARS DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
AND IF THE DEMOCRATS ARE REALLY SMART, WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO IS TALK ABOUT WHAT THIS MEANS FOR FAMILIES GETTING BACK TO WORK AND EXPLORATION OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEOPLE'S CHILDREN AND THEN THAT ALL-IMPORTANT HOW DO WE TAKE CARE OF OUR SENIORS AND HOW DO WE TAKE CARE OF OUR KIDS.
AND, AGAIN, THESE ARE POPULAR PROGRAMS.
THE DEBATE WILL FUNCTION AND I THINK BE DETERMINED BY WHO WINS THE MESSAGING WAR.
BUT YOU SEE NOT ONLY REPUBLICANS MAKING THE ARGUMENT ABOUT THE DEFICIT BUT MODERATE DEMOCRATS AS WELL.
YOU, YOURSELF, WERE A MODERATE DEMOCRAT.
I'M WONDERING IF YOU WOULD HAVE SUPPORTED THIS BILL IN ITS CURRENT FORM.
YOU DON'T HAVE GUARANTEES FROM SENATOR MANCHIN AND KYRSTEN SINEMA.
THEY MOVED FORWARD WITH THE BLUEPRINT BUT NOT A FINAL PACKAGE.
WOULD HAVE?
AND HOW WOULD YOU SELL IT TO YOUR CONSTITUENTS?
I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO BREAK IT DOWN AND MAKE SURE WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT IS ACTUAL INVESTMENT AND IT IS NOT JUST GIVE AWAY MONEY.
IT IS NOT JUST A PROGRAM THAT WOULD NECESSARILY MAKE A CONSTITUENCY GROUP HAPPY BUT REALLY DOESN'T HAD TO THE VALUE OF BUILDING OUR COUNTRY.
AND, SO, IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND, I THINK, THAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INVESTMENT AND RECKLESS SPENDING.
AND DEBT AND DEFICIT COMES IN A LOT OF FORMS.
WHEN WE DON'T EDUCATE OUR KIDS, THAT ADDS ADDITIONAL DEBT IN THE FUTURE WHEN WE DON'T PROVIDE FOR FAMILIES.
RIGHT NOW, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, WE ARE SEEING THE POPULATION GROWTH RATE IN OUR COUNTRY REALLY STAGNATE.
HOW DO WE BUILD THAT NEXT GENERATION OF WORKFORCE?
THAT'S WHAT I WOULD TALK ABOUT.
I WOULD TALK ABOUT THE IMPACTS THAT IT COULD HAVE ON FAMILIES.
I ALSO MIGHT JUST SAY, LOOK, NO ONE CARED WHEN THEY WERE HANDING OUT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN TAX RELIEF TO SOME OF THE LARGEST FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.
THAT'S THEIR PRIORITY.
MY PRIORITY IS HELPING AMERICAN FAMILIES.
I THINK WHEN YOU WIN THAT WAR, THAT MESSAGE WAR, I THINK YOU CAN, IN FACT, GET THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC TO SUPPORT YOU.
SO IT WILL BE UP TO KYRSTEN SINEMA AND SENATOR MANCHIN, BOTH GREAT FRIENDS OF MINE, TO FIND THEIR WAY IN ALL OF THAT.
I ALWAYS LIKE TO SAY WE GET CRITICIZED A LOT, BUT WE ARE NEW DEAL DEMOCRATS.
WE BELIEVE WHEN WE INVEST IN PEOPLE, THIS COUNTRY GROWS AND GETS BETTER.
AND I THINK THAT'S THE MESSAGE THAT WILL CARRY THE DAY IF WE'RE SUCCESSFUL IN DELIVERING IT.
FINAL QUESTION: WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS PRESIDENT THAT YOU THINK ENABLED HIM -- HE'S NOT FULLY THERE, RIGHT?
BUT TO EVEN GET A $1 TRILLION BIPARTISAN DEAL IS A PRETTY BIG DEAL.
HE USED ANOTHER WORD IN BETWEEN THAT, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN ABOUT A BIG DEAL FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN.
HOW HAS THIS BEEN SOMETHING HE'S BEEN ABLE TO ACHIEVE WHEN PRESIDENTS BEFORE HIM, INCLUDING TRUMP, HAVE NOT?
WELL, I MEAN, THAT'S A LITTLE UNFAIR BECAUSE WE PASSED A LOT OF HIGHWAY BILLS WHEN I WAS THERE WITH PRESIDENT OBAMA.
AND, SO, INFRASTRUCTURE IS ALWAYS THE SWEET-SPOT FOR BIPA BIPARTISANSHIP.
THE PROBLEM THAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD WAS HE WANTED IT HIS WAY AND WAS NOT WILLING TO SIT DOWN AND HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH MODERATES.
THIS PRESIDENT HAS A LOT OF FRIENDS IN THE SENATE.
YOU SHOULD ALSO LOOK AT WHO LED THIS EFFORT IN THE SENATE.
IT WAS SENATORS WHO WERE LEAVING, WHO JUST WANTED FOR A MOMENT TO GET SOMETHING DONE.
AND I THINK THAT LEVEL OF FRUSTRATION WE'RE HERE TO DO THE WORK OF THE PEOPLE, I THINK THAT REALLY BROKE THROUGH.
I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHETHER YOU CAN DO MORE BIPARTISAN EFFORTS BASED ON HOW MUCH THE FORMER PRESIDENT, HOW SUCCESSFUL THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS IN PUSHING BACK AND MAKING LIFE MISERABLE FOR THE 19 WHO ACTUALLY SUPPORTED IT.
YEAH.
THERE ARE MANY PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS WHO SAY THIS MIGHT BE A ONE AND DONE KIND OF DEAL TO GET A BABY PARTISAN DEAL ON THE PACKAGE, BUT, HEY, WE'LL TAKE ONE IN THIS DAY AND AGE.
SENATOR, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
TAKE CARE.
> WELL, THE SENATE'S INFRASTRUCTURE BILL WOULD GIVE A LONG-AWAITED PAY RAISE TO FEDERAL FIREFIGHTERS.
THIS IS A HIGH PRIORITY ITEM FOR SENATOR DINE FEINSTEIN AS HER STATE IS BATTLING THE SECOND LARGEST WILD FIRE EVER.
FIREFIGHTERS ARE EXHAUSTED AND TRAUMATIZED TRYING TO STOP THE BLAZES THAT ARE DEVASTATING THE LAND AND DESTROYING PEOPLE'S HOMES.
LUCY WALKER SAW THIS UP CLOSE WHEN SHE EMBEDDED WITH CALIFORNIA FIREFIGHTERS DURING THE MEGAFIRES OF 2018.
HER NEW DOCUMENTARY IS CALLED 'BRING YOUR OWN BRIGADE.'
LET'S TAKE A LOOK.
I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT.
THE FIRE EQUIVALENT OF AN ICE AGE.
IT'S ONLY GOING TO ACCELERATE.
IT'S ONLY BEGINNING.
WE'RE SURROUNDED BY FIRE.
MY DAD PUT HIS HAND ON MY SHOULDER, AND HE SAID DON'T LEAVE.
WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT LET THAT BUILDING BURN DOWN.
EVACUATE.
EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE.
THE LOOKS ON THEIR FACES, THEY WERE SURE THEY WERE GOING TO DIE.
I'VE NEVER SEEN THAT LOOK ON ANYBODY'S FACE.
AND LUCY WALKER JOINS ME NOW FROM LOS ANGELES.
LUCY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
AND CONGRATULATIONS ON A COMPELLING AND REALLY, REALLY POWERFUL FILM THAT I RECOMMEND EVERYBODY WATCH.
IT WAS PAINFUL AT TIMES, BUT SO IMPORTANT.
AND I WAS STRUCK BY YOUR BACKGROUND AND PERHAPS THIS IS WHAT LED YOU TO THIS STORY.
YOU WERE NOT A CALIFORNIA-RAISED CITIZEN.
YOU HAD MOVED.
YOU HAD BEEN A TRANSPLANT FROM THE U.K. AND HAD BEEN SHOCKED BY THE SHEER NUMBER OF MASSIVE WILD FIRES AND THE SEEMINGLY, YOU KNOW, BENIGN RESPONSES OR UNASSUMING RESPONSES FROM SO MANY WHO ARE JUST USED TO IT.
YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.
I GREW UP IN THE U.K. IN LONDON.
I HAD ALSO LIVED IN NEW YORK CITY.
AND IN THOSE PLACES YOU THINK OF FIRE AS A PROBLEM WE HAVE SOLVED HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO.
SO WHEN I MOVED TO CALIFORNIA, I WAS SCARED.
I WAS CONFUSED, WHY IS THE HILLSIDE ON FIRE AND WHY CAN'T THEY PUT THOSE FIRES OUT?
I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THIS LANDSCAPE AND HOW FIRES WORK HERE AND THE STRAIN THAT THE FIREFIGHTERS ARE UNDER.
BUT I GOT TO KNOW RESIDENTS AND FIREFIGHTERS CAUGHT UP IN THESE HUGE FIRES.
I THOUGHT, OH, MY GOODNESS, WHAT IS GOING ON AND OF COURSE IT IS GETTING WORSE AND WORSE.
YEAH.
THERE ARE SO MANY VIDEOS THAT YOU HAVE COMPILED INTO THIS PIECE AND IMAGES OF PEOPLE DRIVING ALONG THE HIGHWAY WITH MASSIVE FIRES TO THE LEFT AS IF IT'S SOME SORT OF HORROR MOVIE WE'RE WATCHING.
IN FACT, IT WAS REALITY.
AND YOU HONE IN ON THE NOVEMBER 2018 CALIFORNIA FIRES IN BOTH MALIBU AND PARADISE.
88 RESIDENTS WERE KILLED.
TENS OF THOUSANDS LOST THEIR HOMES AND WERE DISPLACED.
AND YOU SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH THESE FIREFIGHTERS.
AND I HAVE TO SAY, THEY ARE HEROES.
AND THE EMOTIONAL TOLL, THE PHYSICAL TOLL THAT THIS TOOK ON THEM, WHY WAS IT SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO HIGHLIGHT AND FOCUS ON THAT?
WELL, BECAUSE I THINK THAT IT'S EASY TO FORGET QUITE HOW EXTREME THE CIRCUMSTANCES EXPECTED TO WORK ARE.
AND WITH THESE FIRES YOU ARE NOT GOING HOME EVERY NIGHT.
YOUR SHIFT MAY BE 70 DAYS LONG.
YOU MAY COME HOME FOR ONE DAY AND THEN BE SENT BACK OUT AGAIN.
WITH FIRE SEASON GOING LONGER AND LONGER, IN FACT, THEY SAY THERE IS NO FIRE SEASON ANYMORE BECAUSE WITH CLIMATE CHANGE AND EXTREME EVENTS AND WITH THE OTHER FACTORS PUSHING THESE EV EVENTS.
IT IS NOT JUST CLIMATE CHANGE.
WE'RE ASKING THEM TO DO MORE AND MORE AND THE STRAIN IS ABSOLUTELY BREAKING PEOPLE.
AND I WAS REALLY MOVED BY THAT.
AND ALSO THEY HAD INFORMATION FOR US THAT WE'RE NOT LISTENING TO.
SO I WAS FASCINATED THAT THEY ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, HAVE INCREDIBLE IDEAS AND THERE IS A WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT HOW WE CAN DO BETTER AND ABOUT HOW WE DON'T HAVE TO BE HAVING THESE HUGE FIRES OR WHEN THE FIRES DO COME THROUGH, THEY WON'T BE AS DESTRUCTIVE TO STRUCTURES THOUSANDS, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF HOMES BEING BURNED, YOU KNOW.
BUT WHEN THE FIRES COME THROUGH, THE HOMES DON'T NEED TO BURN IF WE'RE LISTENING TO PEOPLE ABOUT THE BUILDING CODES AND, SO, SOMETHING THAT'S VERY SHOCKING IN THE FILM IS YOU SEE THE FIRE CHIEF OF PARADISE WHERE 85 PEOPLE WERE KILLED, 18,000 STRUCTURES WERE LOST BEING IGNORED IN HIS RECOMMENDATIONS FOR BUILDINGS CODES.
I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WAS REALLY ASTONISHING TO WITNESS AS WELL.
AND THIS HAPPENED AT THE END OF THE FILM, WHICH IS THE FIRST TIME I BELIEVE WE ACTUALLY SEE YOU BECAUSE YOU ATTENDED THE CITY COUNCIL MEETING AND THE VOTE.
YOU HONE IN ON THIS THAT A COMMUNITY THAT LOST AND EXPERIENCED SO MUCH, GIVEN FACTS AND DATA POINTS AND ANALYSIS SHOWING THAT HOMES BUILT AFTER A CERTAIN YEAR, 2008, WITH STOOD MANY MORE FIRES THAN THOSE BUILT PRIOR AND NOT HAVING SHRUBBERY AROUND THEIR HOUSES WOULD PROTECT THEM.
YET, MOST OF THOSE PEOPLE VOTED NO.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT OUR CURRENT ENVIRONMENT?
THAT'S RIGHT.
I WAS SO SHOCKED THAT I PUT MYSELF IN THE MOVIE.
I DON'T NORMALLY PUT MYSELF MOVIES.
I MAKE MANY DOCUMENTARIES AND I'M ALWAYS BEHIND THE CAMERA.
BUT IN THIS CASE MY OWN JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY BECAME PART OF THE STORY.
THERE WAS A MOMENT I WAS SIT ANYTHING THIS TOWN COUNCIL MEETING IN PARADISE WHICH HAD BURNED SO TRAGICALLY, LIKE GREENVILLE WE LOST JUST THIS LAST WEEK WITH THE DIXIE FIRE WHICH STARTED ACTUALLY RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO WHERE THE FIRE THAT DESTROYED PARADISE STARTED STAYING INSIDE THE RIVER CANYON.
THESE PLACES BURN ALL THE TIME.
BUT WE LOST 85 RESIDENTS AND EVEN MORE STRUCTURES.
I HAVE REALLY ASSUMED THAT THE PEOPLE MOST AFFECTED BY THESE FIRES WOULD BE DOING ANYTHING THEY POSSIBLY COULD SO THAT WHEN THE FIRE CAME AGAIN AS IT IS ACTUALLY RIGHT NOW, THEIR HOMES MIGHT NOT BURN AND THE EVACUATION ROUTE MIGHT STAY OPEN AND ALL THESE COMPOUNDING EFFECTS AND YET, YOU KNOW, HUMAN BEINGS ARE FUNNY CREATURES AND WE HAVE OUR OWN PSYCHOLOGY AND WE HAVE POLITICAL SYSTEMS AND STRUCTURES WHERE, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THE DECISIONS ARE ALL DISLOCATED FROM THE IMPACTS.
IT IS TOUGH TO SORT OF MAKE THESE DECISIONS.
AND I REALLY GOT TO THINKING ABOUT HOW WITH CLIMATE CHANGE AS WE LEARNED IN THIS REPORT THIS WEEK, YOU KNOW, THAT SEEMS TO BE REALLY HERE ALREADY AND THESE BIGGER PROBLEMS LIKE THESE WILD FIRES, AS WITH THE PANDEMIC, YOU KNOW, IT IS REALLY HARD TO GET EVERYONE ON THE SAME PAGE AND MAKING DECISIONS, EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW WHAT'S SPENSIBLE AND YOU KNOW WHAT WILL SAVE LIVES, THE PATH TO IMPLEMENTING THAT CAN REALLY NOT WORK OUT.
AND I THINK THAT MIGHT BE THE BIGGEST TAKEAWAY FROM THE FILM.
BUT THERE IS SOMETHING THAT WE CAN LEARN, THERE ARE SOME THINGS WE CAN DO ABOUT THE FIRES THAT I REALLY LOOK AT IN THE FILM.
WE TALK ABOUT FIRE SUPPRESSION.
WE TALK ABOUT NATIVE AMERICANS THERE, INDIGENOUS FIRE PRACTICES THAT ARE A WHOLE DIFFERENT WAY OF LIVING WITH FIRE AS A TOOL AND NOT ALWAYS THE ENEMY.
I WAS TAKING NOTES.
I LEARNED SO MUCH MYSELF.
AND I, LIKE YOU, ENTERED AND STARTED WATCHING THIS FILM THINKING THIS WAS ALL ATTRIBUTED TO CLIMATE CHANGE.
YOU SAY AND EXPLAIN IT IS MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT.
THESE FIRES GO BACK CENTURIES.
AND YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT THE MANY SOLUTIONS AND MANY FACTORS BEHIND THEM.
THERE ARE SOLUTIONS ON THE TABLE.
IT'S JUST A MATTER OF PEOPLE WILLING TO TAKE THEM AND LISTEN A TO THE DATA, TO THE FACTS.
I'M GLAD YOU MAKE THAT THROUGH LINE.
IF YOU COULD EXPLAIN WHY IT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO YOU TO HIGHLIGHT THESE TWO REALLY DIFFERENT CITIES WITHIN ONE STATE, ONE READ CITY, PARADISE, LARGELY VOTED REPUBLICAN, AND THEN MALIBU, TYPICALLY VOTING DEMOCRAT.
ONE HOME VALUES AT $200,000.
ONE IS AT $2 MILLION.
WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO HIGHLIGHT THESE TWO CITIES?
THAT'S RIGHT.
THE FILM LOOKS AT THESE TWO FIRES AND IT DOESN'T STOP THERE.
IT FOLLOWS THROUGH, SO YOU FOLLOW THESE RESIDENTS AND FIREFIGHTERS ONGOING.
I WANTED TO USE THESE FIRES AS A CASE STUDY.
IT WAS NEVER MY INTENTION JUST TO SHOW YOU THE FIRE AND SAY, WOW, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY HORRIFYING.
IT WAS ALWAYS TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON BECAUSE WHEN I MOVED TO CALIFORNIA I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND, AND I FELT LIKE IF I DON'T UNDERSTAND MAYBE OTHER PEOPLE DON'T TOO, AND THEY ALSO, LIKE ME, WANT TO FIGURE OUT ARE WE SAFE LIVING HERE?
WHAT CAN WE DO?
WHAT'S REALLY DRIVING THESE FIRES?
AND WHAT IT'S IT ALL ABOUT?
WHAT WAS REALLY USEFUL ABOUT USING THOSE TWO FIRES AS A CASE STUDY IS THEY'RE AT OPPOSITE ENDS OF THE STATE, OPPOSITE ENDS OF THE ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL SPECTRUM AND YET OF COURSE PEOPLE SUFFER IN JUST THE SAME WAY.
AND SOME OF THE THINGS THAT USED TO PLAY OUT ARE JUST THE SAME AND SOME OF THE THINGS YOU SEE PLAY OUT ARE QUITE DIFFERENT WITHIN THE DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES WITH DIFFERENT MEANS.
I THOUGHT TO GET A BIG UNDERSTANDING OF HOW FIRES ARE AFFECTING US IN CALIFORNIA AND ALSO THE WORLD WITH JUST THESE TERRIBLE FIRES IN GREECE, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, IT IS NOT JUST WITHIN THE WESTERN UNITED STATES.
WE HAVE A REAL PROBLEM RIGHT HERE.
AND I THINK LOOKING AT THE TWO FIRES, YOU GET TO UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE ISSUE MUCH BETTER.
AND THAT WE ALL BURN THE SAME, RIGHT?
AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HIGHLIGHTING THIS IMPORTANT, IMPORTANT PIECE OF WORK HERE AND THE WORK AHEAD THAT WE HAVE.
WE ALL HAVE TO DO TO CONTRIBUTE AND TO ENDING THESE MASSIVE WILD FIRES.
THANK YOU.
WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.
THANKS.
THANK YOU.
> WELL, FRIGHTENING DETAILS.
THAT'S HOW SENATOR DICK DURBIN DESCRIBED THE TESTIMONY OF JEFFREY ROSEN.
ROSEN TESTIFIED OVER THE WEEKEND ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DURING THE WANING DAYS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
OUR NEXT GUEST, FORMER U.S.
ATTORNEY SAYS THE REVELATIONS WERE PRETTY STUNNING.
AND HERE HE IS TALKING TO WALTER ISAACSON.
THANK YOU.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
IT IS GOOD TO BE HERE.
THE FORMER ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL JEFFREY ROSEN JUST GAVE SOME ASTONISHING TESTIMONY, SEVEN HOURS OF TESTIMONY ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S ATTEMPT TO SUBVERT THE ELECTION.
WALK US THROUGH THAT TESTIMONY.
SO I LOVE TO SEE A TRA TRANSCRIPT.
I LOVE TO GET MY HANDS ON THAT HOT TRANSCRIPT.
WHAT WE DO KNOW, EVEN THOUGH WE DON'T HAVE THE FULL TESTIMONY, ALL THE LANGUAGE AND ALL THE INFORMATION IS PRETTY STUNNING.
IT SHOULD GET MORE ATTENTION THAN IT'S GOTTEN.
WHAT JEFFREY ROSEN DETAILS AS THE ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL IN THE FINAL DAYS AND WEEKS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, A SUPPORTER OF BILL BARR, SAYS THAT AGAIN AND AGAIN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND SOME OF THIS IS DOCUMENTED BY CONTEMPORANEOUS NOTES TAKEN BY HIS DEPUTY TRIED TO GET JEFFREY ROSEN, THE TOP LEGAL OFFICER IN THE COUNTRY, TO TAKE ACTIONS TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION.
AMONG OTHER THINGS, DONALD TRUMP WAS SORT OF CONSPIREING WITH, AND I CAN USE THAT EVEN THOUGH IT IS A LEGAL TERM WITH ANOTHER OFFICIAL.
THOUGH WE'RE DOWN IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT JEFFREY CLARK.
AND THEY HAD COME UP WITH A SCHEME WHERE THEY WOULD GET JEFFREY ROSEN, THE PERSON YOU MENTIONED, TO AUTHOR A LETTER, TO SIGN A LETTER TO GEORGIA OFFICIALS AND OTHER OFFICIALS BASICALLY SAYING THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH THE ELECTION AND YOU WOULD BE WITHIN YOUR RIGHTS TO CONVENE A SPECIAL SESSION AND REJECT THE ELECTION.
SO YOU HAVE MULTIPLE OCCASIONS WHERE THE PRESIDENT WAS TRYING THROUGH HIS CHIEF LEGAL OFFICER OF THE COUNTRY, JEFFREY ROSEN, AND OTHER PEOPLE AROUND JEFFREY ROSEN TO TRY TO GET ACTION TAKEN BY THE ELECTION.
ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING BITS OF REPORTING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS AT VARIOUS JUNCTURES JEFFREY ROSEN STOOD HIS GROUND ALONG WITH RICH DONAHUE AND SAID, NO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THIS.
WE CAN'T SNAP OUR FINGERS AND CHANGE THE ELECTION TO WHICH DONALD TRUMP SAYS AND IT IS PART OF A PATTERN SOMETHING LIKE I GET THAT.
JUST SAY THE ELECTION WAS CORRUPT AND LEAVE THE REST TO ME.
SO AND I CAN GO ON ABOUT OTHER DETAILS REPORTED.
BUT IN ESSENCE, I THINK THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SAYING THIS WAS SOMETHING OF AN ATTEMPTED COUP ARE NOT WRONG.
THEY'RE NOT FAR OFF THE MARK.
AND BUT FOR PEOPLE WHO SAID WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THIS.
ALSO REPORTING ABOUT THE TESTIMONY IS THAT AT SOME POINT TRUMP WAS GOING TO REPLACE JEFFREY ROSEN WITH THIS MORE, YOU KNOW, PARTIAL PERSON JEFFREY CLARK WHO IS GOING TO GO ALONG WITH THE PROGRAM.
AND THAT WAS MET WITH A THREAT OF MASS RESIGNATION AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.
SO I KNOW WE HAVE HEARD THIS TALE BEFORE.
AND WHAT LAWS MIGHT THAT BE VIOLATING?
THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.
IT COULD BE VIOLATINGE IING VAR LAWS IN DIFFERENT STATES.
IT IS TOUGH TO DO THAT.
I DON'T KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND THE LOCAL LAWS IN GEORGIA AND THERE IS FEDERAL LAWS THAT MAY APPLY.
BUT, YOU KNOW, WE TRUST PRESIDENTS TO ACT WITHIN NORMS, TO STAY OUT OF PROSECUTIONS AND ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS SPECIFICALLY, PARTICULARLY WHEN THEY'RE FOR THE BENEFIT OF THAT PERSON IN OFFICE PERSONALLY.
AND THE PRESIDENT, AS JEFFREY ROSEN AND OTHERS RESPONDED IN THIS WAY FOR THIS REASON, THE PRESIDENT WAS ACTING IN HIS PERSONAL CAPACITY AS A CANDIDATE.
WAS HE INTERFERING WITH AN ELECTION?
WAS HE OBSTRUCTING A PROCEEDING?
WE NEED MORE INFORMATION.
BUT THE DEFENSE WOULD BE I WAS DOING THINGS EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE OUT OF THE ORDINARY AND NOT WITHIN THE NORM AND MIGHT HAVE BEEN AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE.
MAYBE I WAS ALLOWED TO DIRECT MY PEOPLE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
THIS IS THE REPEATED OFFENSE THAT TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES AND LAWYERS HAVE USED WITH RESPECT TO FINDINGS IN THE MUELLER REPORT.
AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE THING DIDN'T HAPPEN.
YOU MENTIONED THAT RICHARD DONAHUE TOOK NOTES AT THE TIME.
YOU KNOW RICHARD DONAHUE.
TELL ME ABOUT HIM AND WHAT YOU MAKE OF THOSE NOTES.
I DO KNOW RICHARD DONAHUE AND HAD A GOOD OPINION OF HIM.
HE WAS THE CHIEF OF THE CRIMINAL DIVISION FOR A PERIOD OF TIME IN THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ACROSS THE RIVER, PROFESSIONAL, GOOD LAWYER, INTEGRITY.
HE TOOK NOTES LIKE ANYBODY DOES.
THE HISTORY OF OUR UNDERSTANDING OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, MYSELF INCLUDED, IS THAT THERE ARE OFTEN CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT HE IS GOING TO SAY AND HOW HE WILL REPRESENT CONVERSATIONS LATER.
THAT'S WHY JIM COMEY TOOK CONTEMPORANEOUS NOTES.
THAT'S WHY I BRIEFLY CONSIDERED TAPING THE CALL WHEN THE PRESIDENT CALLED ME BUT I THOUGHT THAT WAS A BRIDGE TOO FAR.
IT WAS A SMART THING HE DID.
THE NOTES THEMSELVES, I THINK, GIVEN THAT THEY WERE CONTEMPORANEOUS AND THAT RICHARD DONAHUE IS A PERSON WHO I THINK IS HONEST AND TRUSTWORTHY PROBABLY ACTIVELY REFLECT WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID.
JEFFREY CLARK, WHO YOU MENTION WAS A PERSON THAT TRUMP RELIED UPON AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, IS THERE A CASE AGAINST HIM THAT YOU SEE AND WHAT YOU KNOW OF THE TESTIMONY IN NOTES?
YEAH.
I DON'T SEE SUCH A CASE.
I THINK THERE MIGHT BE QUESTIONS, GIVEN WHAT ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE COMES FORWARD, IF HE WAS VIOLATING SOME OATH AS AN ATTORNEY.
YOU KNOW, IF HE WAS TRYING TO MAKE ARGUMENTS IN COURT.
ALTHOUGH, THEY DIDN'T HAPPEN, RIGHT?
THESE WERE ALL DRAFTS.
SO I THINK IT IS A LITTLE MORE DIFFICULT, YOU KNOW, TO BRING AN ETHICS CHARGE FOR A BAR ASSOCIATION TO EXAM WHAT HE WAS DOING.
BUT JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS HAVE WIDE DISCRETION AND AUTHORITY TO DO THINGS.
WHAT HE WAS ATTEMPTING TO DO WAS TO CIRCUMVENT THE CHAIN OF COMMAND, ATTEMPTING TO CIRCUMVENT NORMS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY TO UNDO AN ELECTION WITHOUT ANY FACTS OR EVIDENCE IN CAHOOTS WITH A POLITICAL CANDIDATE.
NOT A PRESIDENT.
NOT A PERSON WHO IS HIS SUPERIOR BUT A POLITICAL CANDIDATE.
THAT'S BAD ENOUGH WITHOUT THERE HAVING BEEN A CRIMINAL LAW VIOLATED.
DO YOU CONSIDER THIS ALMOST AN ATTEMPT AT A COUP?
WE HAVE HEARD PEOPLE USE THE WORD TREASON CASUALLY AND SOME PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THE WORD INSURRECTION.
ALTHOUGH I THINK JANUARY 6th WAS AN INSURRECTION.
COUP I KNOW TO VARIOUS PEOPLE, SCHOLARS INCLUDING YOURSELF HAS A PARTICULAR MEANING.
WE APPLY THAT WORD TO OTHER COUNTRIES.
IT TENDS TO FIT WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.
YOU HAVE AN ELECTION THAT WAS DECIDED.
THERE WAS DUE PROCESS.
VIRTUALLY ALL OF WHICH WENT AGAINST THE PRESIDENT.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU CALL IT WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE IN A HIGH-LEVEL OFFICE WHO HAVE BEEN VOTED OUT OF THE OFFICE ATTEMPT TO REMAIN IN THE OFFICE AGAINST ALL LAW, AGAINST ALL REGULATION, AGAINST ALL FACTS.
I THINK ATTEMPTED COUP IS NOT A BAD PHRASE TO CAPTURE THAT.
WITH EVERYTHING YOU HAVE SEEN, INCLUDING THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION, ARE YOU AS SURPRISED THAT THE SYSTEM HELD?
YES.
I THINK THAT'S A GOOD WAY OF SAYING THE GLASS IS HALF FULL.
I'M NOT SURPRISED SO MUCH AS RELIEVED.
AND IF YOU ENGAGE IN COUNTER FACTS, YOU'RE A HISTORIAN AND YOU KNOW YOU THINK ABOUT THINGS AND THINK ABOUT THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT AND COVERED EXHAUSTIVELY.
YOU CHANGE A COUPLE OF FACTS, HOW DIFFERENT WOULD THE WORLD HAVE BEEN?
SO ARE YOU SAYING WE'RE JUST LUCKY?
YEAH.
I THINK -- LOOK, IF MIKE PENCE AND JEFFREY ROSEN AND BILL BARR AND A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE AND THE -- THE HEAD ELECTION OFFICIALS IN GEORGIA AND MAYBE SOME FOLKS IN ARIZONA, A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE HAD DONE WHAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AT THE TIME WANTED THEM TO DO, I DON'T THINK WE WOULD HAVE LOST THE REPUBLIC, BUT WE WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH CLOSER TO IT.
SHOULD WE RELY ON LUCK?
NO, WE SHOULD NOT.
WE SHOULD NOT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, IT TAKES NOT ONLY, YOU KNOW, POLICIES AND LAWS AND REGULATIONS, IT TAKES GOOD PEOPLE.
AND I KNOW, AGAIN, THAT SOUNDS UNSATISFACTORY TO FOLKS, BUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN NIXON DID WHAT HE DID, THERE WAS AN UNDERSTANDING IN THE COUNTRY BY BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS THAT THERE NEEDED TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY AND THERE NEEDED TO BE REFORM AND THERE NEEDED TO BE AN INQUIRY.
AND NOW WE'RE AT A SPOT.
THAT'S THE MOST DAMAGE THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS DONE TO THE COUNTRY THAT HE HAS CAUSED PEOPLE TO PUT PROXIMITY TO POWER OVER THROUGH THE STRENGTH OF THE REPUBLIC.
AND I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU GET OUT OF THAT OVERNIGHT.
I THINK IT HELPS FOR THERE TO BE ELECTORAL DEFEATS SO THE PEOPLE WHO STICK THEIR HEAD IN THE SAND AND SPOUT NONSENSE OR GARBAGE KNOWINGLY OR UNKNOWINGLY.
AND I THINK THE COMMITTEE, ALTHOUGH THEY'RE NOT MEMBERS OF GOOD STANDING IN THE TRUMP REPUBLICAN PARTY AT THE MOMENT CAN SHED LIGHT ON A LOT OF THESE THINGS.
OVER TIME AS WE HAVE GONE BACK TO CERTAIN NORMS IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND ELSEWHERE, WHAT YOU HOPE IS THAT GOOD AMERICANS WILL COME TO THE VIEW IN INCREASING NUMBERS THAT WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th AND WHAT LED UP TO JANUARY 6th IS UNACCEPTABLE IN THIS COUNTRY.
WALK ME THROUGH WHAT MUST BE GOING THROUGH MERRICK GARLAND'S MIND.
WHAT ARE HIS OPTIONS?
WHAT DO YOU THINK HE SHOULD DO?
SO THAT MIGHT TAKE A WHILE.
HE'S A SMART PERSON.
AND I DON'T ENVY HIM, HIS JOB AND THE DIFFICULTY OF HIS JOB BECAUSE HE'S BOUNCING MULTIPLE THINGS.
I THINK HE'S TRYING TO STEER A PATH OF DOING THE RIGHT THING IN THE RIGHT WAY.
AND THERE IS SOME INSTITUTIONAL CONSIDERATIONS THAT HE HOLDS DEAR.
HE WAS A FORMER MEMBER OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AT A HIGH LEVEL AND A TRIAL ATTORNEY THERE.
AND, SO, THERE IS CERTAIN ISSUES RELATING TO DELIBERATE OF PROCESS PRIVILEGE AND THE EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE THAT SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE BIDEN SUPPORTERS DON'T LIKE BECAUSE THEN SOME INFORMATION IS NOT COMING OUT.
THERE HAVE BEEN DECISIONS MADE ABOUT CONTINUING TO REPRESENT THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IN SOME LITIGATION THAT SOME PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE FROM DONALD TRUMP DON'T LIKE.
BUT THEN ON THE OTHER HAND, HE'S TRYING TO MAKE SURE HE'S TRANSPARENT WITH CONGRESS.
WITH RESPECT TO THE THINGS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW, WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT RICHARD DONAHUE'S NOTES, THE FORMER ACTING DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL, IT DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE THAT THAT WAS RELEASED OR IS BEING LOOKED AT AS AN INTERNAL DOJ INVESTIGATION TO SEE WHAT CRIMES HAVE BEEN COMMITTED OR WHAT NORMS BREACHED.
BUT RATHER IN RESPONSE TO REQUESTS FROM CONGRESS FOR THAT INFORMATION.
SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK HE HAS AN INTEREST IN MAKING SURE THE BAD CONDUCT COMES TO LIGHT AND THERE IS SOME TRANSPARENCY.
I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH INTEREST HE HAS.
AND PEOPLE CAN DEBATE THIS IN MAKING SURE THAT THERE IS A COMPLETE REVIEW AND REPORTING OF AND HOLDING ACCOUNTABLE OF PEOPLE WHO ENGAGED IN THIS BEHAVIOR TOWARDS THE END OF THE ADMINISTRATION.
I THINK HE WOULD BE WELL SERVED TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO DO THAT THAT DOESN'T DERAIL HIM FROM OTHER THINGS AND OTHER ISSUES IMPORTANT TO THE DEPARTMENT.
BUT I THINK IT IS A LITTLE BIT OF A TOUGH LINE FOR HIM TO WALK.
GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO RESIGNED THIS WEEK AFTER A LOT OF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT ALLEGATIONS AND INVESTIGATIONS.
BUT THERE IS ALSO A STORY BY A GREAT REPORTER IN THE NEW YORKER THIS WEEK THAT GOVERNOR CUOMO CALLED VALERIE JARED OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO TRY TO INTERFERE WITH AN INVESTIGATION YOU WERE DOING.
TELL ME ABOUT THAT AND TELL ME IF THERE IS SOME THINGS COMPARABLE TO WHAT DONALD TRUMP DID.
YES.
I HAVE DRAWN THAT PARALLEL.
YOU KNOW, IT IS NOT A GOOD THING FOR A POLITICAL OFFICIAL TO IN ANY WAY TRY TO BRING THEIR INFLUENCE TO BEAR ON PEOPLE AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OR OTHER POLITICAL FIGURES TO PUT PRESSURE TO BARE ON MEMBERS OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO ENGAGE IN AN ENFORCEMENT ACTION AGAINST SOMEBODY.
YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO USE THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO PROTECT ALLIES AND TO HARM AND PENALIZE AND PUNISH ADVERSARIES.
AND, SO, THE ONE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOME OF THE THINGS THAT DONALD TRUMP DID AND WHAT HAPPENED IN MY CASE WAS DURING THE TIME IN 2014 AS OUTLINED AND CONFIRMED BY MULTIPLE OFFICIALS IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, THE ALMOST FORMER GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK DIDN'T LIKE BEING INVESTIGATED.
THAT IS TRUE OF A LOT OF PEOPLE WHETHER THEY'RE WELL KNOWN AND POWERFUL OR NOT.
AND APPARENTLY I MADE A CALL TO ONE OF THE TOP ADVISERS TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AT THE TIME, AND IT BECAME CLEAR BY HER OWN TESTIMONY IN THE ARTICLE THAT IT WAS AN INAPPROPRIATE CALL, THAT IT WAS INTENDED IN SOME WAY TO CAUSE ME TO GET BRUSHED BACK FROM THE INVESTIGATION I WAS OVERSEEING, WHICH WAS BEING CONDUCTED BY CAREER PROSECUTORS AND INVESTIGATORS, BY THE WAY, I SHOULD SAY, AND SHE IMMEDIATELY CHANGED THE SUBJECT OR ENDED THE CONVERSATION.
AND SHE REPORTED IMMEDIATELY TO THE WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL.
THE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL REPORTED IT IMMEDIATELY TO THE DEPUTY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE DEPUTY GENERAL INFORMED ME AND SAID, MAKE WHATEVER USE OF THIS THAT'S APPROPRIATE TO YOUR INVESTIGATION AND WE PROCEEDED IN THAT WAY.
NOW, THE ANALOGY, I THINK, GOOD FAITH IN REASONABLE PEOPLE I THINK IS HARD, YOU KNOW, TO CRITICIZE.
AND THAT IS YOU HAVE A PERSON WHO IS IN SOME INVESTIGATIVE JEOPARDY, ULTIMATELY CHARGES WERE NEVER BROUGHT.
YOU HAVE SOMEONE IN JEOPARDY WHO TRIES TO PULL A POLITICAL LEVER TO PREVENT INDEPENDENT PROSECUTORS FROM DOING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.
THAT'S WRONG.
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT CASE AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS THAT MEMBERS OF THE WHITE HOUSE, UNLIKE VALERIE JARED, YOU KNOW, WERE SLISED OF THIS CONDUCT.
MARK MEADOWS ALMOST CERTAINLY MADE HIS OWN PHONE CALLS.
RATHER THAN SHUTTING DOWN THE QUESTION AND SAYING THAT'S INAPPR INAPPROPRIATE, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS SUPPOSED TO BE INDEPENDENT.
NO, HE TOOK THE BATON AND RAN WITH IT.
WHETHER IT IS AN ANALOGY, THERE IS NO REAL ANALOG WITH RESPECT TO HOW THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HANDLED IT.
TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PHONE CALL WITH DONALD TRUMP.
SO I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY FOLKS ARE AWARE OF THIS.
I STAYED ON AT THE REQUEST OF DONALD TRUMP BECAUSE I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO MY JOB INDEPENDENTLY.
AND HE BEGAN -- HE BEGAN CALLING ME A COUPLE OF TIMES DURING THE TRANSITION.
I REPORTED THOSE PHONE CALLS, MADE NOTE OF THOSE PHONE CALLS.
BUT WHEN HE CALLED ME WHEN HE WAS THE SITTING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IN MARCH OF 2017 AND A MESSAGE WAS LEFT BY THE SECRETARY TO THE PRESIDENT.
AND I THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT I SHOULD DO.
NOW, AT THE TIME, THERE WERE CALLS FOR INVESTIGATIONS OF DONALD TRUMP BASED ON SOME OTHER THINGS.
I HAD NO RELATIONSHIP WITH DONALD TRUMP.
ORDINARILY, IF THIS WAS GOING TO BE SOMETHING RELATING TO MY JOB, IT WOULD BE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.
JEFF SESSIONS WAS NOWHERE TO BE SEEN.
THIS SEEMED TO BE A SIDE PHONE CALL TO ME.
BASED ON MY SENSE OF HOW THE WORLD WORKS AND ALSO FOR MY PROTECTION AND ALSO FOR DONALD TRUMP'S PROTECTION, WE WOULDN'T KNOW AND BE ABLE TO PROVE WHY HE WAS CALLING, WHAT HE WAS SAYING IN THE CALL, HOW WOULD THAT LOOK?
I CALLED THE SECRETARY BACK AND SAID I DECLINED TO CALL THE PRESIDENT BACK.
AND THE NEXT DAY I WAS ASKED FOR MY LETTER OF RESIGNATION.
THAT DECISION, BY THE WAY, WHICH LIKELY COST ME MY JOB AND THE JOB THAT I LOVE BUT I HAD NO ENTITLEMENT TO SERVE IN IT ANY LONGER THAN I HAD, THAT DECISION WAS BORNE OUT AS CORRECT TIME AND TIME AGAIN BY THE EXPERIENCES OF JIM COMEY, THE EXPERIENCE OF THE GEORGIA OFFICIALS, THE EXPERIENCES OF JEFFREY CLARK.
I HAVE NO DOUBT IN MY MIND NOW, GIVEN HOW DONALD TRUMP AND MARK MEADOWS AND OTHERS THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED HAVE TRIED TO WEAPONIZE THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THAT AT SOME POINT IN I PLAYED ALONG WITH DONALD TRUMP WANTING TO HAVE A SIDE RELATIONSHIP WITH A SITTING SENATE AFFIRMED U.S.
ATTORNEY WHO HAS JURISDICTION OVER HIS BUSINESSES AND PROPERTIES, I WOULD HAVE BEEN ASKED TO DO SOMETHING INAPPROPRIATE IN RETURN.
BY THE WAY, THERE WAS A SITTING U.S. ATTORNEY IN ATLANTA WHO IS NOW BEING REPORTED.
MAYBE JEFFREY ROSEN SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, WAS FORCED OUT AND MADE TO QUIT IN A WAY THAT PARALLELS MINE APPARENTLY BECAUSE HE WASN'T DOING ENOUGH TO CAST DOUBT ON THE ELECTION IN GEORGIA.
SO NOTHING GOOD COULD HAVE COME WITH HAVING A RELATIONSHIP AND BEING CULTIVATED BY THE SITTING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHEN YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE AN INDEPENDENT MIND AND PROSECUTOR.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU, WALTER.
GOOD TO BE HERE.
THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
♪ IRE
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