August 15, 2023

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP >>> THE INDICTMENT RINGS FELONY CHARGES AGAINST DONALD JOHN TRUMP.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT INDICTED AGAIN.

WE DIG INTO THE GEORGIA CASE AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE GOP FRONT RUNNER.

AND THEN , THE FALL OF KABUL .

I SPEAK TO A FORMER AFGHAN PEACE NEGOTIATOR WHO WAS SHOT BY MILITANTS AND SURVIVED.

>>> TRUST FOR OR LACK OF TRUST FOR SCIENCE ALL DEPENDS ON US ANSWERING THIS QUESTION , THE ORIGINS OF THIS DEVASTATING FIRE , WHERE DID IT COME FROM.

>> Reporter: DAVID KORMAN TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HOW TO SOLVE THE ENDURING MYSTERY OF COVID-19 .

>>> BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A TIME MACHINE.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIAN.

>>> DONALD TRUMP IS INDICTED AGAIN.

THIS TIME, IN GEORGIA.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS FACING 13 FELONY CHARGES FOR TRYING TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION LOST IN THE STATE.

18 DEFENDANTS WERE ALSO CHARGED INCLUDING MARK MEADOWS AND RUDY GIULIANI.

THEY ARE ALL FACING RACKETEERING CHARGES .

THE COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY ORDER TRUMP AND HIS ALLEGED CO- CONSPIRATORS TO TURN THEMSELVES IN BY NEXT FRIDAY.

THIS IS TRUMP'S FOURTH CRIMINAL INDICTMENT.

HE IS NOW FACING A TOTAL OF 91 CHARGES IN GEORGIA, FLORIDA, NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON DC.

FORMER FULTON COUNTY DISTRICTS ASSISTANT ATTORNEY.

THIS WAS A SWEEPING INDICTMENT.

WE WILL GET THROUGH THE DETAILS IN A MOMENT BUT IT IS ALSO SOMETHING WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR, FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS FROM THIS DISTRICT ATTORNEY.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE CHARGES AND THE FACT THAT IT IS NOT JUST DONALD TRUMP BUT YOU HAVE THE 19 INCLUDING DONALD TRUMP WHO HAVE BEEN CHARGED ?

>> IS GOOD TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU.

THE FACT THAT THERE ARE 19 PEOPLE HELPS THE ELECTED DA IN FULTON COUNTY MAKE THIS A RACKETEERING CHARGE.

MAKES THIS EASIER FOR HER TO PROSECUTE CRIMES THAT TOOK PLACE OUTSIDE OF THE ATLANTA, FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA , BUT STILL IN THE STATE OF GEORGIA.

SO THAT IS NOT SURPRISING ENDED FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO AFTER A LOT MORE PEOPLE.

PEOPLE INDICTED TELLS ME THEY ARE LOOKING FOR SOME DROLL WAYS, THEY ARE HOPING AND EXPECTING THAT ONE OR MORE OF THESE PEOPLE WILL TURN STATE'S EVIDENCE, WILL TESTIFY AGAINST A CODEFENDANT, DONALD TRUMP.

AND THE MORE THAT THEY CAN PUT PRESSURE ON PEOPLE, THE MORE LIKELY HE OR SHE OR THEY WILL SAY TO THEMSELVES, DO I REALLY WANT TO PUT MYSELF IN JEOPARDY?

DO I REALLY WANT TO PUT MYSELF IN JEOPARDY OF GOING TO PRISON?

THE ANSWER IS NO SO I WILL DO WILL --WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GIVE MYSELF A FREE PERSON.

>> THE OTHER INDICTMENTS, THEY INVOLVED WHETHER IT IS DONALD TRUMP JUST ALONE AS WE SAW IN JACK SMITH INDICTMENT JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO ALSO RELATED TO TRYING TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION, THAT WAS A FEDERAL CHARGE THAT WAS JUST FOCUSED ON THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN A COUPLE OF OTHERS THAT HAVE BEEN INDICTED.

AND THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND SOME OF THESE CASES, IS PAYING FOR THEIR LEGAL DEFENSE.

IN THIS CASE, IT WOULD BE RATHER DIFFICULT FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT TO PAY FOR ALL 18 OTHERS THAT HAVE BEEN CHARGED FOR.

>> I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY EACH INDIVIDUAL LAWYER OR LAWYERS ARE CHARGING AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT DONALD TRUMP'S POCKETBOOK HAS IN IT OR WHAT IS LEFT IN IT BUT EITHER WAY, IT IS A VERY HEAVY INDICTMENT AND I THINK PART OF WILLIS'S STRATEGY IS, THE MORE PEOPLE INVOLVED, THE HEAVIER THE WEIGHT AND DONALD TRUMP TO BE FEARFUL AND TO START --STOP STRIKING BACK BECAUSE WHAT SHE WANTS IS NOT WHAT HE IS DOING.

WHAT YOU WANT IS WHAT NORMAL DEFENDANTS DO WHEN HE, SHE OR THEY HAVE BEEN CHARGED.

THEY KEEP THEIR MOUTH SHUT AND ANY WAY THEY KNOW HOW.

IN THIS INSTANCE, OUR FORMER PRESIDENT IS LASHING BACK OUT AS IF HE IS AND HE IS BACKED INTO A CORNER AND HE IS SAYING, GET OUT OF MY WAY BECAUSE THIS IS A PERSECUTION NOT A PROSECUTION.

>> EXPLAIN WHAT A RICO CASE MEANS .

>> A RACKETEERING CHARGE.

AND IT IS ALL-ENCOMPASSING.

SO IT MIGHT BE A LITTLE PIECE OF THE ACTION OVER HERE, A SMALL PIECE OVER HERE, A LARGER PIECE OVER HERE BUT YOU DID IT ALL TOGETHER AND IT BECOMES A MAJOR CASE BECAUSE IT DEPENDS, EACH INDIVIDUAL PERSON MAY NOT HAVE DONE ANYTHING THAT ILLEGAL BUT HE OR SHE PUT TOGETHER -- THINK OF A PUZZLE.

WE ARE PUTTING THIS PUZZLE TOGETHER AND PIECE BY PIECE, THE PUZZLE PIECES DON'T MEAN MUCH BUT WHEN YOU PUT THEM ALTOGETHER, YOU HAVE A FINISHED PUZZLE AND YOU CAN SEE WHAT IS GOING ON.

THAT IS BASICALLY WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

THE SIMPLE, INDIVIDUAL PIECES ARE GOING TOGETHER IN A >> AMONG THE OTHER CHARGES, WE HAVE ELECTION FRAUD, FALSE DOCUMENTS, FALSE STATEMENTS, WITNESS INTIMIDATION.

LET'S DRILL DOWN ON SOME OF THESE OTHER INSTANCES AND I WANT TO GET YOU TO RESPOND TO EXACTLY WHAT LAW WILLIS IS A THE PRESIDENT OR THESE 18 OTHERS BROKE.

LET'S START WITH THAT FAMOUS PHONE CALL.

THE PHONE CALL THAT TOOK PLACE ON JANUARY 22nd , 2021, ASKING FOR 11,000 VOTES TO BE FOUND.

LET'S PLAY THAT FOR OUR VIEWERS.

>> SO ALL I WANT TO DO IS THIS, I JUST WANT TO FIND 11,780 VOTES WHICH IS ONE MORE THAN WE HAVE BECAUSE WE WON THE STATE.

>> FOR AN AMATEUR JUST LISTENING , THAT DOES SOUND SUSPICIOUS BUT TELL US EXACTLY WHAT LAWS MAY HAVE BEEN BROKEN HERE WITH THAT REQUEST .

>> IT DEPENDS.

IF YOU TAKE IT AT FACE VALUE AND WE HAVEN'T HEARD THE ENTIRE RECORDING BUT IF YOU JUST TAKE IT AT FACE VALUE, IT COULD BE, PAY, DO A RECOUNT.

I AM CERTAIN THAT 11,780 VOTES WERE MISCOUNTED.

JUST KEEP LOOKING BECAUSE THERE MAY HAVE BEEN A MALFUNCTION IN ONE OR MORE OF THE MACHINES.

OR IT COULD BE MORE SINISTER.

YOU NEED TO CHANGE 11,780 VOTES SO THAT I CAN BE THE WINNER OF THE ELECTORAL VOTES IN GEORGIA AND I CAN BE REELECTED AS PRESIDENT.

IT JUST DEPENDS ON HOW YOU INTERPRET IT AND YOU CANNOT TAKE IT BY ITSELF.

IT HAS TO BE PART OF A LARGER CONVERSATION, PART OF A LARGER CONSPIRACY THAT WILLIS HAS CHARGED TRUMP AND 18 OTHER PEOPLE WITH.

>> AND WOULD YOU ASSUME THAT THAT IS WHAT WILLIS HAS BEEN THAT THIS WAS PART OF A LARGER CONSPIRACY AS OPPOSED TO JUST THE PRESIDENT SAYING, LISTEN, I HOPE WE CAN FIND 11,000 VOTES?

>> THE TRUTH IS, THIS IS PART OF WHY IT IS A RICO CASE IN MY VIEW BECAUSE SHE IS TAKING PIECES OF THE PUZZLE AND TAKING THEM WHERE THEY ARE SEPARATED AND THEY DON'T MEAN VERY MUCH OF ANYTHING BUT WHEN THEY ARE PUT TOGETHER, IT MEANS THAT THERE IS A CONSPIRACY WITH TRUMP GOING AFTER PEOPLE WHO WERE ELECTORS, THEY COLLECT DOORS, PUTTING PRESSURE ON BRAD ROETHLISBERGER, THE SECRETARY OF STATE , THAT HE SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE.

SO IT BECOMES A QUESTION OF, IS THIS JUST POLITICAL?

OR IS IT POLITICAL AND A CRIME?

AND FINDING WILLIS AND THE DA'S OFFICE HAVE DECIDED THAT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED AS A RESULT OF HIS LOSS OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WERE CRIMINAL , NOT JUST PEOPLE, NOT JUST ROTTEN EGGS, NOT JUST , I WAS MISTREATED , BUT I WAS ROBBED OF WHAT I RIGHTFULLY WON.

AND HE IS SAYING THIS AND THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM WERE TRYING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN WITHOUT THE VOTERS ACCORDING TO THE INDICTMENT , WITHOUT THE VOTERS CONSENT BECAUSE THE VOTERS HAD VOTED ONE WAY AND THEY WERE TRYING TO CHANGE VOTES TO MAKE HIM THE WINNER.

>> AND THEN THERE IS THE ISSUE OF GOING AFTER THE FULTON COUNTY POLL WORKERS , SPECIFICALLY, RUBY FREEMAN AND HER DAUGHTER WHO SAID THAT THEIR LIVES WERE TURNED UPSIDE DOWN SIMPLY FOR DOING THEIR CIVIC DUTIES AND THAT THE PRESIDENT AND THOSE AROUND HIM WERE INTENTIONALLY LYING ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE DOING IN THAT ROLE.

LET'S LISTEN TO THE IMPACT THAT IT HAD ON THEIR LIVES AS THEY TESTIFIED BEFORE THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE HAVE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO TARGET YOU?

THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT EVERY AMERICAN.

NOT TO TARGET ONE.

>> I DON'T WANT TO GO ANYWHERE WITH MY MOM BECAUSE SHE MIGHT YELL MY NAME OUT AT A GROCERY AISLE OR SOMETHING.

I DON'T GO TO THE GROCERY STORE AT ALL.

I HAVEN'T BEEN ANYWHERE AT ALL.

I HAVE GAINED ABOUT 60 POUNDS.

I JUST DON'T DO NOTHING ANYMORE .

I DON'T WANT TO GO ANYWHERE.

I SECOND-GUESS EVERYTHING THAT I DO .

IT HAS AFFECTED MY LIFE IN A MAJOR WAY.

IN EVERY WAY!

ALL BECAUSE OF LIES .

>> HOW DOES TARGETING RUBY FREEMAN FIT INTO THIS INDICTMENT?

>> NUMBER ONE, IT HAS UPSET NO ONE BUT THE TWO OF THEM CAN UNDERSTAND OR COMPREHEND AND IT WILL PROBABLY KEEP THEM UPSET FOR PERHAPS THE REST OF THEIR LIFE BUT BY TARGETING THEM, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE TRYING TO RETAKE THE ELECTION, TRYING TO OVERTURN WHAT HAPPENED ARE SAYING, THESE TWO PEOPLE WERE PART OF A CONSPIRACY AGAINST US.

NOT AS BEING IN A CONSPIRACY BUT THEY CONSPIRED TO KEEP ME, THAT IS DONALD TRUMP, KEEP MY PRESIDENT, THAT IS DONALD TRUMP, FROM BEING REELECTED AND BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DID, VOTES THAT ACTUALLY WENT FOR DONALD TRUMP EITHER WERE THROWN OUT OR VOTES THAT WENT FOR HIM SWITCHED TO BECOME VOTES FOR JOE BIDEN .

>> EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE AS WE NOTED JACK SMITH HAS ALREADY INDICTED THE FORMER PRESIDENT WITH FEDERAL CHARGES FOR HIS ROLE IN ATTEMPTING TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION.

DIDN'T WE JUST HEAR THIS SAME STORY, THE SAME INDICTMENT JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO?

WHY DO WE HAVE A DIFFERENT CASE HERE?

AND EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN STATE-BROUGHT CHARGES IN FEDERALLY-FILED CHARGES .

>> TO START WITH, IT APPEARS THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF CROSSOVER BETWEEN THE TWO INDICTMENTS BUT THAT DOESN'T PREVENT THE TWO CASES FROM GOING FORWARD.

SHOULD HE BE CONVICTED IN WASHINGTON OR IN GEORGIA BEFORE THE OTHER CASE GOES TO TRIAL, THERE WOULD BE AN ARGUMENT OF DOUBLE JEOPARDY.

BUT THAT JUST DEPENDS ON WHAT THE FACTS ARE, WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT.

BUT IN THE STATE CHARGES, THEY ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE FEDERAL CHARGES THAT JACK SMITH IS PROSECUTING BUT THEN THEY ARE VERY MUCH THE SAME SAYING THEY ARE TRYING TO OVERTURN WHAT THE PUBLIC, WITH THE VOTERS, WHAT THE REGISTERED VOTERS DID BY DOING WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO KEEP DONALD TRUMP IN THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENCY.

>> AND THERE ARE ALSO SOME OTHER DIFFERENCES.

FIRST OF ALL, THE STATE OF GEORGIA, IF HE IS CONVICTED AND HE DOES BECOME PRESIDENT UNLIKE FEDERAL CHARGES WHERE HE COULD PARDON HIMSELF, THAT WOULD NOT BE THE CASE IN THIS STATE TRIAL .

AND, AT THE SAME TIME AND IF I AM CORRECT, I BELIEVE THAT THIS GEORGIA IS ONE OF THREE STATES WHERE THE GOVERNOR CANNOT EVEN ISSUE A PARDON IF SOMEBODY HAS BEEN CONVICTED?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

NO, THAT HAS BEEN CORRECT.

LET'S TAKE A GIANT LEAP AND SAY THAT HE IS REELECTED, HE IS ELECTED AGAIN AS THE PRESIDENT AND LET'S ALSO SAY THAT HE HAS BEEN CONVICTED IN FULTON COUNTY.

THERE IS A MINIMUM FIVE YEAR PRISON SENTENCE THAT IS TACKED ONTO RICO.

NONE OF THE OTHER CHARGES I AM TALKING ABOUT, JUST RACKETEERING.

AND KNOW THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF GEORGIA DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER TO PARDON ANYONE .

IT HAS TO BE THE STATE BOARD OF PARDONS AND PAROLE'S AND I BELIEVE IT IS AFTER FIVE YEARS .

SO HE COULD BE THEORETICALLY THE PRESIDENT FROM BEHIND BARS IN GEORGIA AND I DON'T SEE THOSE SCENARIOS WORKING OUT BUT CLEARLY, THEY ARE A POSSIBILITY.

>> WILLIS SAYS SHE WANTS TO BRING THIS CASE TO TRIAL WITHIN SIX MONTHS.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS OVERLY AMBITIOUS?

>> IT IS EASIER TO ME TO GET TO THE MOON WITHOUT A SHIP THAT HER HAVING THIS CASE FINISHED IN SIX MONTHS.

IT IS NOT GOING TO SUCCUMB TO THE COURTS IN SIX MONTHS.

THERE ARE TOO MANY LAWYERS INVOLVED.

WE KNOW THERE WILL BE AT LEAST 19.

THERE MAY BE MORE.

THERE ARE TOO MANY CASES, TOO MANY MOTIONS TO DISMISS, MOTIONS TO REMOVED TO FEDERAL COURT, MOTIONS FOR EVERYTHING YOU CAN THINK OF AND A LOT THAT YOU CANNOT THINK OF THAT WILL TAKE UP THE COURTS TIME AND IN MY VIEW, THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN EVEN COME CLOSE TO A SIX- MONTH TRIAL DATE .

>> ANOTHER DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY IS A DEMOCRAT, AS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL UNLIKE JACK SMITH WHO WAS APPOINTED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND I WILL ADD ANOTHER THING , WHENEVER THIS TRUCK DOES TAKE PLACE, CAMERAS WILL BE ALLOWED IN THE COURTROOM, ANOTHER DISTINCTION BETWEEN STATE TRIAL AND A FEDERAL TRIAL.

DARRELL COWAN, I WISH WE HAD MORE TIME.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO COVER THIS STORY IN THE WEEKS AND MONTHS TO COME.

THANK YOU FOR HELPING US BREAK IT DOWN.

>>> TURNING NOW HALFWAY ACROSS THE WORLD TO AFGHANISTAN, THE TALIBAN CELEBRATED IN THE STREETS OF KABUL TODAY MARKING TWO YEARS SINCE THEIR RETURN TO POWER.

WHILE THE TALIBAN PROBABLY WAIVED THEIR FLAGS, MANY AFGHANS WERE FEELING SOMBER ABOUT THIS MOMENT AND ALL THAT SINCE AMERICAN FORCES [2021.

ONE SERVING IN THE AFGHAN PARLIAMENT AND NEGOTIATED WITH THE TALIBAN IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE PEACE, SHE KNOWS THE HAND -- RISKS, FIRSTHAND.

SHE JOINS ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

A LOT CAN HAPPEN IN TWO YEARS WE SAW HOW THE TALIBAN IS MARKING THIS DAY.

HOW ARE YOU?

HOW ARE YOU GRAPPLING WITH THE CHANGE IN THE COUNTRY IN THOSE TWO YEARS?

>> THEY SAY HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF AND THIS IS THE MOMENT WE SEE HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF.

NOT VERY LONG AGO, 22 YEARS AGO, I HAVE WITNESSED TALIBAN BEING REMOVED FROM POWER.

THERE WAS HOPE, EXPECTATIONS WERE HIGH.

WE WERE CHATTING IN THE STREETS OF KABUL BUT 20 YEARS LATER, WE BELIEVE THAT THE TALIBAN VICTORY BASICALLY GIVEN TO THEM.

NO OTHER CITIZEN FROM AFGHANISTAN AS PART OF THAT GOVERNMENT OR ANY KIND OF SOCIOPOLITICAL OR ECONOMICS FAIR ESPECIALLY A WOMAN AND FOR ME, FOR ME PERSONALLY, THESE ARE VERY EMOTIONAL DAYS I THINK FOR EVERYONE BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT ONLY INVESTED OUR TIME BUT WE HAVE INVESTED OUR BLOOD .

>> YOU ARE ONE OF THE AFGHAN NEGOTIATORS BACK IN 2020 TRYING TO SHARE POWER WITH THE TALIBAN.

BACK THEN, THEY CLAIMED IT WAS THEIR MISSION GOING FORWARD TO PROTECT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

HERE WE ARE, TWO YEARS LATER AND YOU SEE THE IMPACT THAT THEIR RETURN TO POWER HAS HAD ON WOMEN.

IT WAS JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE LAST FOUR WOMEN TOGETHER AND THAT IS NAIL AND HAIR SALONS.

THEY WERE CLOSED, AS WELL.

YOU AT ONE POINT THOUGHT THERE WAS HOPE FOR SOME SORT OF TALKS AND NEGOTIATIONS.

WHERE DOES THAT HOPE LIE, TODAY?

>> THE MOMENT WE STARTED OFFICIAL NEGOTIATIONS IN SEPTEMBER OF 2020 , I REALIZED THAT THE TALIBAN ARE NOT THE SAME TALIBAN BEFORE THE DEAL WAS SIGNED .

WHEN THERE WAS NO U.S. TALIBAN DEAL, THEY WERE APPROACHABLE, THEIR VIEWS ON WOMEN SEEMED TO BE MODERATE OR AT LEAST PRETENDED THAT THEY HAVE CHANGED.

BUT ALSO, THEY HAVE CLEARLY TOLD ME AND OTHER WOMEN THAT WERE IN THE DIALOGUE, WOMEN CAN WORK UP TO THE POSITION OF PRIME MINISTER'S, GET A PHD.

OBVIOUSLY, THEY WERE CREATING A FALSE NARRATIVE AND WE ALL BELIEVED ON THAT.

I THINK THE AIM WAS TO GET THE DEAL SIGNED AND A RETURN TO POWER.

WE KNOW THEY GRADUALLY, LITERALLY AND AFGHANISTAN HAS BECOME AN OPEN PRISON FOR EVERY CITIZEN AND ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN.

NOT ONLY THE WORK IN EDUCATION IS BANNED BUT ALSO AS A HUMAN BEING, THE FACT THAT YOU ARE BEING CONTROLLED IN THE STREETS OF KABUL.

EVERYBODY TELLS ME THAT THE MOMENT THEY GET OUT, THE TALIBAN ASKS THEM, WHERE ARE YOU ALLOWED OUT ?

OBVIOUSLY, WE WOULD ALL LIKE TO ENJOY SOME LEVEL OF LEVITY .

THIS IS TOTALLY 21ST-CENTURY HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS.

IT DOESN'T HAPPEN ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD AND THE TALIBAN USES IT AS A TOOL FOR THEIR ENGAGEMENT WITH THE WORLD WHICH IS SAD.

>> GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT YOU HOW THE TALIBAN IS WOMEN, CHRIS YOUNG JUST A FEW DAYS AGO INTERVIEW THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF THE UK, GORDON BROWN, AND HE SAID THESE ARE EXAMPLES FOR THE ICC, THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT TO INVESTIGATE THE TALIBAN FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

WOULD YOU SUPPORT THAT IN TERMS OF HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE?

>> MOSTLY OVER THE LAST FOUR DECADES OR SO, PALESTINIAN WOMEN HAVE ALWAYS BEEN USED AS A VICTIM.

AND THERE HAS BEEN NO ACCOUNTABILITY TO THE PERPETRATORS.

IN FACT, THE PARTIES ACTUALLY ENJOYED AND HAVE FOUND IT AN EASY OBJECT TO WEAPONIZED WOMEN AND SUPPRESS THEM AND TALIBAN WOMEN BASED ON SEPARATION OF WOMAN WHICH HAS NO PLACE IN THE CULTURE.

THEREFORE, I THINK THERE SHOULD BE SOME LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY .

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS INCLUDING CRIMES .

I THINK THIS INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION SHOULD BE USED.

THIS IS THE TIME.

I STILL BELIEVE THAT WE NEED TO HAVE A PRINCIPAL ENGAGEMENT.

WE NEED TO TALK FOR A POLITICAL PROCESS MOVING FORWARD BECAUSE WITHOUT CHANGING THE POLITICAL ECOSYSTEM, NOTHING WILL CHANGE AND THESE INSTITUTIONS ARE THE MEANS FOR PRESSURE, FOR A CHANGE.

>> THE U.S.

RECENTLY MET WITH THE TALIBAN, A BIG SHIFT IN U.S. POLICY, THE FIRST MEETING OF THE TWO SIDES SINCE 2021 AND THE READOUTS SEEM TO OFFER A BIT OF OPTIMISM FROM THE WESTSIDE GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE READOUT FROM THE TALIBAN MIRRORED CLOSELY THE PROGRESS EVEN THOUGH IT IS INCREMENTAL THAT THE U.S. SAID THEY WALKED AWAY WITH.

AND THAT YOU HAVE JUST LAID OUT FOR US, IS THE U.S.

BEING DUPED BY THE TALIBAN?

>> I THINK HONESTLY SPEAKING, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS BEEN VERY NAÏVE IN BELIEVING THAT THE AGENTS HAVE CHANGED.

THEY ONLY HAVE A SECURITY AND ECONOMIC PERSPECTIVE OR LENS THAT THEY LOOK AT THE SITUATION.

WE KNOW THAT SECURITY IS NOT THE ABSENCE OF WAR .

SECURITY IS MORE THAN THE ABSENCE OF WAR.

WE KNOW THERE HAVE BEEN MAJOR INCIDENTS SINCE THE TALIBAN TOOK OVER.

HUNDREDS OF CIVILIANS BEING KILLED WHICH INDICATES SECURITY IS NOT ALSO GOOD BUT ALL OF THESE MEASURES THAT ARE PUT IN THAT STATEMENT OUT BY THE U.S. SHOWS, INDICATES THAT THE GLOBAL NORTH BASICALLY LOOKS AT SECURITY AND CORRUPTION WHICH FROM MY INFORMATION , THERE IS NOT ENOUGH MONEY INCLUDING ARE MISUSING.

AND ALSO, FROM THE U.S., A COUNTRY THAT STANDS ON, THE VALUES OF EQUALITY, JUSTICE, DEMOCRACY .

20 YEARS BACK, THEY ACTUALLY TOLD US, THEY CLAIM THEY ARE THERE TO PROTECT DEMOCRACY AND SUPPORT PEOPLE.

20 YEARS LATER, THEY ONLY MENTION IN THE AGREEMENT, THERE IS NO MENTION OF WOMEN AND HUMAN RIGHTS .

EVEN IN THE STATEMENTS LATER , THERE IS ONLY ONE OR TWO MENTIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS BUT THE MAIN ISSUE IS IMPROVEMENT IN SECURITY, IMPROVEMENT AND CORRUPTION WHICH DISAPPOINTS A LOT OF PEOPLE IN AFGHANISTAN.

THEY WERE DISAPPOINTED WHEN THE UNITED STATES DECIDED TO LEAVE.

WE HAVE TRIED TO TELL THE TRUTH TO THE WORLD.

LET'S FIX IT TOGETHER.

WE ARE READY TO WORK WITH YOU TO FIX IT.

I SEE THAT THERE IS NO PERSPECTIVE, NO LONG-TERM VISION FOR THAT POLITICAL ENGAGEMENT BEYOND SECURITY.

I THINK AS LONG AS WE CONTINUE TO ONLY FOCUS ON HUMANITARIAN AID AND SECURITY, LIKE HAVING A POLITICAL LENS , HAVING BENCHMARKS IN TERMS OF -- WE ARE GOING TO WITNESS THE SAME SITUATION.

THE TALIBAN WILL BE EMBOLDENED BY ENGAGEMENT WITH NO PRINCIPLES.

>> WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO MOVE FORWARD NOW?

YOU LAID OUT SORT OF PRELIMINARY SCOPE OF THE STEPS THAT SHOULD BE TAKEN BUT IN TERMS OF THE INTERIM AND NEAR-TERM WILL OF ADDRESSING THE HUMANITARIAN COUNTRY, 80% OF ALL REVENUE CAME FROM INTERNATIONAL COUNTRIES AS YOU KNOW AND THE COUNTRY IN ITSELF IS VIRTUALLY A FAILED STATE AT THIS POINT.

HUNGER, POVERTY, YOU NAME IT.

WHAT IS THE BEST WAY IN THE SHORT TERM TO ADDRESS THIS HUMANITARIAN CRISIS?

>> IN THE SHORT TERM AS REPRESENTATIVE OF PEOPLE FOR MANY YEARS AND AS SOMEONE WHO IS IN CLOSE CONTACT EVERY DAY WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE AFFECTED BY THE SITUATION, OF COURSE IT IS VERY HARD FOR ME TO SAY HUMANITARIAN AID SHOULD STOP.

I KNOW THE TALIBAN BENEFITS AND CONFLICT PARTIES BENEFIT.

THIS MUST CONTINUE BECAUSE PEOPLE NEEDED BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, TALIBAN CLAIMS THEY HAVE IMPROVED THE ECONOMY.

THERE ARE BENCHMARKS IN THE FIGHT AGAINST CORRUPTION.

THEY HAVE A GOOD DIVISION OF LABOR, THEY WANT THE REST OF THE WORLD TO FEED THE PEOPLE AND THEY WANT TO PAY THEIR SOLDIERS FROM THE MONEY THAT THEY CLAIM SO I THINK IT IS TIME TO HOLD THE TALIBAN ACCOUNTABLE FOR DELIVERING TO THE PEOPLE.

THEY ARE CLAIMING THAT THEY HAVE INCREASED , THAT THEY ARE SIGNING CONTRACTS RIGHT AND LEFT WITH NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES WHO HAVE A DIFFERENT APPROACH.

THEY NEED TO ALSO USE THAT MONEY TO BE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN.

AS I SAID BEFORE, I THINK WITHOUT CHANGING THE POLITICAL SITUATION, ASSURING THERE IS GOVERNMENT TO THE PEOPLE, SOME SORT OF PEOPLE'S LEGITIMACY IS IMPORTANT , AND INCLUSION OF ALL SEGMENTS OF SOCIETY IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY WANT.

IF WE CANNOT ENSURE THE BASIC STEPS , THERE IS NO PREREQUISITE OF A GLOBALIZED WORLD, I THINK WE ARE NOT GOING TO IMPROVE POVERTY OR HUMANITARIAN AID >> IN THE FINAL SECONDS, YESTERDAY MARK THREE YEARS SINCE YOU WERE SHOT.

YOU HAVE BEEN LIVING IN EXILE AND YET CONTINUING SO BRAVELY TO SPEAK UP FOR JUSTICE IN YOUR COUNTRY.

SPECIFICALLY FOR WOMEN.

DO YOU ENVISION A DAY, DO YOU THINK YOU WILL STILL BE ABLE TO RETURN TO AFGHANISTAN?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THIS IS A WISH FOR EVERY MAN AND WOMAN WHO HAVE LEFT AFGHANISTAN FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.

WHEN I SAY DEMOCRATIC STATE, I MEAN WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT IN TERMS OF A LOCAL NARRATIVE DEFINED BY PEOPLE.

THAT IS MY STRUGGLE AND WE ARE NOW PLANNING TO MOBILIZE OURSELVES AND DEFINE PRINCIPLES FOR OUR OWN ENGAGEMENT AND FOR THE WORLD'S ENGAGEMENT IN TERMS OF POLITICAL ENGAGEMENT FOR AFGHANISTAN.

>> FAWZIA KOOFI, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY AND THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING YOU ARE DOING .

>>> NEW COVID VARIANT IS FUELING A RESURGENCE OF THE VIRUS AS IT CONTINUES TO EVOLVE.

FOR YEARS ON, WE STILL DON'T KNOW HOW THE PANDEMIC STARTED.

AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST INVESTIGATED IT'S UNKNOWN ORIGINS.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS POTENTIAL THEORIES.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

IT IS GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU WITNESSED GREAT PEACE EXPLORING THE ONGOING MYSTERIES OF OF ITS ORIGINS.

I FOLLOWED YOU FOR A LONG TIME EVER SENT YOU WROTE SPILLOVER 10 OR 12 YEARS AGO ABOUT HOW VIRUSES CAN TRANSMIT FROM ANIMALS.

TELL ME HOW YOUR THINKING HAS EVOLVED IN THE LAST YEAR ON WHETHER THIS CORONAVIRUS WAS A LAB LEAK FROM THE CHINESE LAB OR WHETHER IT WAS A SPILLOVER FROM ANIMALS IN THE MARKETPLACE IN CHINA.

>> MY THINKING HAS EVOLVED WITH THE INCREASE OF DATA, WITH THE INCREASE OF SCIENTIFICALLY PUBLISHED RESEARCH AND ANALYSIS ON THE VARIOUS DIFFERENT HYPOTHESES.

AS YOU KNOW, THERE ARE THREE HYPOTHESES THAT HAVE BEEN BANDIED ABOUT FOR THE ORIGIN OF THIS VIRUS.

DID IT SPILLOVER FROM A WILD ANIMAL INTO THE HUMAN POPULATIONS OR WAS IT ENGINEERED THROUGH SOME SORT OF A THAT THE VARIOUS RESEARCH PROGRAM TO HARM HUMANS AND RELEASED EITHER INTENTIONALLY OR BY ACCIDENT AFTER HAVING BEEN ENGINEERED?

OR WAS IT A VIRUS THAT WAS BEING WORKED ON IN A LABORATORY POSSIBLY FOR LEGITIMATE PURPOSES AND THEN ACCIDENTALLY LEAK FROM A LAB?

AS YOU MENTIONED, I HAVE WRITTEN IN THE PAST ABOUT HOW FREQUENTLY AND WITH WHAT CONSEQUENCES VIRUSES SPILLOVER FROM WILD ANIMALS.

IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME AND MOST OF THE NEW DISEASES THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE LAST 50 YEARS HAVE HAPPENED THAT WAY.

BUT THERE WAS ARGUMENT THAT THIS MIGHT HAVE SPILLED OVER FROM A LAB AND I AGREED WITH THOSE WHO SAID WE NEED TO KEEP OUR MINDS OPEN ABOUT THAT UNTIL WE HAVE MORE EVIDENCE.

AND THERE HAS BEEN INCREASING ARGUMENT ABOUT THAT .

THERE HAS BEEN INCREASING PUBLIC EMBRACE OF THE LAB LEAK HYPOTHESIS.

AND YET, I SO KNOW INCREASING EVIDENCE FOR IT.

I SAW NO POSITIVE EVIDENCE AT ALL.

AS I WROTE THIS PIECE BECAUSE I WAS PUZZLED BY THIS CONUNDRUM.

WHY IS IT THAT THE PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE SEEMS TO BE ON THE SIDE OF NATURAL ORIGINS BUT THE PREPONDERANCE OF PUBLIC OPINION IS ON THE SIDE OF LAB LEAK?

>> LET ME PUSH BACK A BIT.

IF IT WERE INDEED A SPILLOVER FROM A NATURAL ANIMAL AND IT JUST EVOLVED, WHY HAVEN'T WE FOUND THE ANIMALS OR EVEN TRACES OF THE ANIMALS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN THE INTERMEDIATE STEPS?

>> THAT IS A GOOD AND IMPORTANT QUESTION.

3 1/2 YEARS HAVE GONE BY AND THE ANIMAL OR ANIMALS FROM WHICH THE VIRUS CLOSELY RESEMBLING THIS MAY HAVE SPILLED OVER HAVE NOT BEEN FOUND.

THE ANIMAL HAS NOT BEEN IDENTIFIED.

BUT TO TAKE THAT AS SIGNIFICANT OR EVEN SUSPICIOUS REQUIRES AND ENDURANCE OF THE HISTORY OF EMERGING VIRUSES.

AS I SAY IN THE PEACE, FINDING THE ANIMAL HOST , THE NATURAL ANIMAL RESERVOIR OF THE ORIGINAL SARS VIRUS FROM 2003, THAT TOOK 15 YEARS.

MARBURG VIRUS SPILLED OVER INTO HUMANS BACK IN 1967 AND IT TOOK 42 YEARS FOR SCIENCE TO IDENTIFY THE NATURAL HOST OF THAT , THE EGYPTIAN FRUIT BATS.

EBOLA FIRST SPILLED OVER AND WAS RECOGNIZED IN HUMANS IN 1976 AND WE STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NATURAL HOST OF THE EBOLA VIRUS IS.

SO IF YOU ARE LUCKY, YOU CAN SOLVE THAT MYSTERY IN A SHORT TIME.

AND THAT HAS HAPPENED WITH SOME OF THESE NATURAL VIRUSES.

BUT IF YOU ARE NOT LUCKY, IT CAN TAKE DECADES .

>> IF THIS WERE JUST AN INNOCENT THING LIKE A SPILLOVER FROM NATURAL CAUSES, WHY HAVE THE CHINESE BEEN SO DIFFICULT?

SO HARD AT GIVING EVIDENCE OF WHAT THEY WERE DOING IN THAT LAB WHERE THEY WERE, INDEED, EXPERIMENTING ON VIRUSES?

>> YOU ARE RIGHT, THE CHINESE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY, CONSTRAINTS ON INFORMATION IMPOSED BY CHINESE OFFICIALDOM AT THE LOCAL PROVINCIAL AND NATIONAL LEVEL HAVE DEPRIVED US OF IMPORTANT EVIDENCE.

IMPORTANT EVIDENCE THAT MAY HAVE SUPPORTED ANY OF THESE HYPOTHESES I MENTIONED THAT IS A REAL PROBLEM.

WE HAVE NEEDED MORE INFORMATION FROM THE CHINESE AND WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN IT.

CHINESE SCIENTISTS, SOME OF THEM HAVE RISK THEIR CAREERS AND EVEN THEIR FREEDOM TO SHARE INFORMATION WITH THEIR WESTERN SCIENTIFIC COLLEAGUES BUT CHINESE OFFICIALDOM HAS STOPPED THE FLOW OF EVIDENCE IN A WAY THAT HAS CONTRIBUTED TO SUSPICIONS ABOUT CHINESE MOTIVE.

I POINT OUT IN THE PIECE THAT CHINESE OFFICIALDOM WOULD HAVE AN INCENTIVE TO COVER UP EVIDENCE OF A LAB LEAK BUT CHINESE OFFICIALDOM WOULD ALSO HAVE INCENTIVE TO COVER UP EVIDENCE OF A SPILLOVER FROM ILLEGALLY TRADED WILD ANIMALS .

SO CHINESE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY , LACK OF COOPERATION IS AN IMPORTANT FACTOR BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY PROVE ONE HYPOTHESIS VERSUS ANOTHER >> WITH THEY HAVE MUCH MORE INCENTIVE TO COVER UP EVIDENCE THAT WAS A LAB LEAK AND THINGS THEY WERE DOING IN A LAB THAT WERE SAFE THAN IF IT CAME FROM AN ANIMAL?

THE INCENTIVES WOULD BE PRETTY STRONG TO COVER UP A LAB LEAK.

>> WELL, THEY WOULD BE.

THEY ARE STRONG ALSO TO COVER UP A MARKET LEAK.

THERE IS A $70 BILLION TRADE AGAINST LIVING WILD ANIMALS CAPTURED FROM THE WILD AND SOME OF THEM RAISED IN CAPTIVITY.

$70 BILLION TRADE IN CHINA, WILD ANIMALS FOR FOOD AND FOR TRADITIONAL CHINESE MEDICINE.

SO I SUPPOSE YOU COULD SAY THE DEVASTATION THAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE HUMAN POPULATION AROUND THE WORLD , MILLIONS AND MILLIONS DEAD AND MANY MORE A MILLION SICKENED, THAT IS A HUGE INCENTIVE FOR THE CHINESE TO SAY IT WASN'T DOES .

IT IS NOT OUR FAULT.

WHETHER OR NOT IT IS A MATTER OF RESEARCH IN A LABORATORY THAT LED TO A LAB LEAK OR THIS TRADE IN WILD ANIMALS.

EITHER WAY, IT SEEMS TO ME THERE IS GREAT IT'S A FOR COVER- UP .

>> ONE OF THE THINGS FUELING THE CONTROVERSY ARE THINGS THAT LIKE THROUGH THE ECHO HEALTH ALLIANCE, THE LABS WERE FUNDED IN CHINA AND THROUGH THE ECHO HEALTH ALLIANCE, SOME NATURAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH AND THE GOVERNMENT, ONE OF THE PEOPLE SCIENTIST AND YOU TALK TO HER.

EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT SHE TOLD YOU.

>> I SPENT TWO HOURS ON A ZOOM CALL AND SHE TOLD ME, WE WERE NOT WORKING ON THIS VIRUS IN OUR LABORATORY.

SHE MAKES A LIVING AND HAS FOR 15 YEARS BY STUDYING CORONAVIRUS'S CARRIED BY WILD ANIMALS IN PARTICULAR BATS AND IDENTIFYING WHICH ONES PRESENT A THREAT TO HUMANS.

AND SHE WRITES PAPERS SAYING WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THESE CORONAVIRUS IS IN BAD.

THAT IS HOW SHE MAKES HER LIVING, THAT IS HOW HER CAREER ADVANCES.

THAT IS HER PASSION ABOUT VIRUSES AND PARTICULARLY VIRUSES CARRIED BY WILD ANIMALS AND PARTICULARLY, BATS .

SHE RUSHED BACK TO HER LAB FROM THE CONFERENCE IN SHANGHAI, SHE LOOKED THROUGH HER NOTEBOOKS, SHE TALKED TO HER PEOPLE JUST TO CONFIRM , AT THAT POINT, THEY HAD A GENOME SEQUENCE SO THEY KNEW WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE.

IN GREAT DETAIL.

SHE LOOKED AT HER RECORDS AND SHE TOLD ME AND SHE TOLD JOHN: , A VERY RESPECTED REPORTER FOR THE JOURNAL SCIENCE THAT THIS VIRUS WAS NEVER IN HER LABORATORY.

SHE HAD NEVER WORKED ON THIS VIRUS.

>> DON'T WE HAVE SOME EVIDENCE THAT PEOPLE IN THAT LAB MAY HAVE GOTTEN THE ACTED?

>> THAT IS AN ACCUSATION THAT WAS MADE IN AN ARTICLE THAT WAS PUT UP ON SUBS: JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO BY THREE AUTHORS AND THEY SAID THERE ARE THREE SCIENTISTS WHO WERE WORKING IN THE LAB AND ONE OF THEM IS A FELLOW NAMED BEN HU WHO WAS THE FIRST AUTHOR IN 2017 AND THEY SAID, WE HAVE EVIDENCE BUT WE CANNOT TELL YOU WHAT IT IS FROM GOVERNMENT SOURCES THAT BEN AND THESE OTHER TWO PEOPLE WERE SICK IN NOVEMBER OF 2019 WITH CORONAVIRUS-LIKE SYMPTOMS.

THIS WAS PUBLISHED.

MADE A BIG SPLASH.

AND THEN, WITHIN A FEW DAYS, BEEN DOSED DOSED BEN HU AND SAID NOT ONLY WAS I NOT SICK IN NOVEMBER AND CERTAINLY NOT SICK WITH COLD-LIKE SYMPTOMS, THAT JUST DIDN'T HAPPEN.

BUT I WAS TESTED FOR COVID ANTIBODIES IN MARCH OF 2020 AND I TESTED NEGATIVE .

SO THAT WAS A VERY INFLAMMATORY ASSERTION ABOUT THESE PEOPLE THAT HAS BEEN REFUTED .

>> AS YOU WRITE ABOUT IT, A VERY FAMOUS SCIENTIFIC ARTICLE EARLY ON CALLED PROXIMAL ORIGINS.

IN OTHER WORDS, A GROUP OF SCIENTISTS SAID HOW DID THIS THING ORIGINATE?

AND THAT ASSAY, THAT SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL PEACE PRETTY MUCH SAID THAT IT REALLY LOOKS LIKE IT WAS A PROBLEM FROM A's ROLLOVER FROM A MARKET PLACE AND IT HAD NATURAL ORIGINS.

AND THAT WAS PRETTY CONVINCING.

IT CONVINCED ME, IT CONVINCED A LOT OF PEOPLE.

I KNOW YOU SUPPORTED IT.

BUT SINCE THEN, WE HAVE SEEN SOME THINGS AND AT LEAST SOME THINGS THAT I HAVE FOUND TROUBLING AND YOU READ ABOUT IT IN THE PIECE WHICH IS ALL OF THESE EMAILS SAYING WE ARE BEING PUSHED INTO THIS.

ANTHONY FAUCI AND FRANCIS COLIN OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT KIND OF ENCOURAGING IT , WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> ALL OF THAT REVOLVES AROUND A PHONE CALL, A CONFERENCE CALL THAT OCCURRED ON FEBRUARY 1st OF 2020.

THE AUTHORS OF THAT SCIENTIFIC ARTICLE, EDDIE HOLMES, CHRISTIAN ANDERSON, ROBERT GARY, IAN LIPKIN AND ANDREW RAMBO WERE CONFERRING WITH ONE ANOTHER FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE GENOME OF THIS VIRUS TOLD THEM ABOUT WHERE IT MAY HAVE COME FROM AND THEY FOUND TWO PECULIAR FEATURES , UNEXPECTED FEATURES.

ONE CALLED A RECEPTOR BINDING DOMAIN THAT ALLOWS THE VIRUS TO LATCH ONTO A CELL AND EFFECT IT PENETRATE THE CELL AND IT'S GENOME .

A FELONY NAMED JEREMY FERRARA, A PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIAL, HEAD OF A VAST FOUNDATION , A HEALTH RESEARCH FOUNDATION , BUT TRUST, CONVENED THIS PHONE CALL.

AND THERE WERE MORE THAN A DOZEN PEOPLE ON THIS CALL INCLUDING TONY FAUCI, INCLUDING FRANCIS COLLINS OF THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH, INCLUDING THE SCIENTISTS I JUST MENTIONED AND A NUMBER OF OTHER SCIENTISTS .

SO THE ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHETHER THESE FELLOWS WERE MANIPULATED, WERE PRESSURED TO CALL THIS A NATURAL SPILLOVER REVOLVE AROUND THAT CALL.

AND I TALKED TO ALL FIVE OF THOSE SCIENTISTS ABOUT THE PHONE CALL.

I TALKED TO TONY FAUCI ABOUT THE PHONE CALL AND SOME OTHER CALL.

INTERNATIONAL SCIENTISTS SUCH AS CHRISTIAN JOHNSON AND GERMANY AND MARION COOPER IN THE NETHERLANDS , THEY WERE DISCUSSING THIS QUESTION OF WHERE THIS VIRUS CAME FROM .

WHERE THESE TWO FEATURES CAME FROM.

THE CRITICS SAY THAT TONY FAUCI AND FRANCIS COLLINS PRESSURED THESE PEOPLE TO SAY IT WAS A NATURAL SPILLOVER AND NOT A LAB LEAK I DON'T FIND THAT PERSUASIVE AT ALL PARTLY BECAUSE I DON'T SEE HOW TONY FAUCI OR FRANCIS COLLINS ARE GOING TO PRESSURE AND INTERNATIONALLY RENOWNED SCIENTIST WORKING IN SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA, MARION COOPER AND THE NETHERLANDS, THERE IS NO LEVERAGE, THERE THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT FUNCTIONING OFF OF GRANTS LIKE OTHERS .

THEM ARE, ABSOLUTELY.

AND THAT IS WHAT HAS GIVEN MOMENTUM TO THAT ACCUSATION, THAT ARGUMENT .

>> AFTER YOUR PIECE CAME OUT, I THOUGHT IT WAS A PRETTY GOOD PIECE AND THE COMMENTS WERE JUST DEVASTATING .

WHY HAVE WE BECOME SO POLARIZED ON THIS AND SO MANY OTHER ISSUES?

>> TO SOME EXTENT, I THINK IT IS POLITICS.

ATTITUDES TOWARDS CHINA.

BUT IT IS NOT JUST THAT AND I SAY THIS IN THE PIECE .

DAVID ROMAN SAID TO ME, WHEN YOU SOW THE SEEDS OF DISTRESSED AND A COPULATION , YOU WILL FIND THOSE SEEDS WILL GROW, THIS TRUST WILL GROW AND YOU WILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CYNICISM AMONG YOUR POPULATION, A MONGER CITIZEN.

AND WE HAVE THAT NOW.

NOT JUST IN THE U.S.

BUT IN A LOT OF COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

OTHER COUNTRIES WHERE PEOPLE FAVOR THE LAB LEAK IDEA, TOO.

WE HAVE A CYNICISM ABOUT GOVERNMENT , ABOUT GOVERNMENT SECRECY .

SOME PEOPLE HAVE A CYNICISM ABOUT EXPERTS IN GENERAL ANYONE THAT WE ARE OBLIGED TO CALL DOCTOR OR PROFESSOR AND MAYBE WEARS A WHITE JACKET ON TELEVISION .

THAT GUY IS NOT GOING TO TELL ME WHAT I SHOULD THINK ABOUT THIS.

SO, THERE IS THAT CLIMATE AND THERE IS THAT EAGERNESS TO CREATE A MELODRAMATIC SCENARIO THAT INVOLVES GOOD GUYS VERSUS BAD GUYS AND SECRET POWERS MOVING IN THE BACKGROUND.

THAT GOES BACK TO OUR FEELINGS ABOUT THE ASSASSINATION OF JOHN KENNEDY AND 63.

WE ARE STILL ARGUING ABOUT THAT.

SOME PEOPLE, MANY PEOPLE STILL WANT TO BELIEVE THAT WAS A CONSPIRACY.

THERE WAS A DESIRE FOR THE DRAMATIC EXPLANATION THAT INVOLVES GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS AND CONSPIRACIES AND HIDDEN FORCES AND DARK STATES AND DEEP STATES .

ALL MADE WORSE BY SOCIAL MEDIA.

>> AND FINALLY, WHY DOES IT MATTER?

>> OH, THAT IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION .

SOME PEOPLE SAY IT DOESN'T MATTER.

PEOPLE ARE DYING.

WE NEED TO DEAL WITH THIS PANDEMIC.

WHAT DOES IT MATTER WHERE IT CAME FROM?

IT DOES MATTER , WALTER.

ABSOLUTELY.

RESEARCH PRIORITIES AROUND THE WORLD, PANDEMIC REDNESS , PUBLIC HEALTH PREPAREDNESS AND THE PUBLIC'S FEELINGS ABOUT SCIENCE IN GENERAL, TRUST FOR OR LACK OF TRUST FOR SO IT'S ALL DEPEND ON US ANSWERING THIS QUESTION, THE ORIGINS OF THIS DEVASTATING VIRUS, WHERE DID IT COME FROM?

AND HOW CAN WE AVOID LETTING IT HAPPEN AGAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO US WITH THIS ONE.

WE NEED TO KNOW.

>> DAVID, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> WALTER, THANK YOU.

IT IS A PLEASURE TO TALK TO YOU.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST.

>>> FINALLY, WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU COULD CHANGE THE PAST?

THAT IS THE QUESTION AT THE HEART OF THE NEW FILM FOLLOWING A GRIEVING WIDOW PLAYED BY JUDY GREER AS SHE MAKES DIFFICULT CHOICES AND FACES THEIR CONSEQUENCES.

HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> SOMETIMES I AM SO MAD, I JUST WANT TO STRANGLE THE MAN WHO DID THIS TO US.

>> THERE IS A SCIENCE TO EVERYTHING .

>> WE CANNOT SAVE HIM .

>> BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A TIME MACHINE.

I CAN FIRE A BULLET INTO THE PAST.

ALL WE NEED IS A TARGET >> YOU KNOW THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE, >> IT IS RELEASED TO THEATERS ON FRIDAY AMID THE ONGOING STRIKES WHICH HAVE BROUGHT HOLLYWOOD TO A STANDSTILL.

IT IS WRITTEN AND DIRECTED BY JARED WHO JOINS ME NOW FROM LOS ANGELES.

WE WILL GET TO THE STRIKE IN A MOMENT BUT THIS AMBITIOUS FILM, WHAT STOOD OUT TO ME IS THAT YOU HAVE ALREADY MARRIED PEOPLE DEALING WITH AN EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCE AND BY THAT, I AM TALKING ABOUT A TIME MACHINE THAT JUDY GREER'S CHARACTERS FRIEND CREATES AND BUILDS AS SHE IS SUFFERING AND GRIEVING AFTER THE LOSS OF HER HUSBAND DUE TO A DRUNK DRIVER.

THIS TIME MACHINE THEN CAN PERHAPS CHANGE ALL OF THAT AND IT DEALS WITH THE QUESTION THAT WE ALWAYS ASK OURSELVES, I WISH I COULD GO BACK AND CHANGE TIME BUT IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT AS YOU LAYOUT THIS FILM.

TALK ABOUT ONE YOU TO THE STORY.

>> SO, THE STORY KIND OF CAME TO ME WHEN --SOON AFTER THE BIRTH OF MY SON WHEN I WAS WRESTLING WITH HOW THE WORLD BECAME A LOT SCARIER AND A LOT MORE UNCERTAIN.

YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING FROM GETTING MY HEALTH INSURANCE TO GETTING PAID TO GETTING MY NEW PROJECT GOING, IT BECAME A LOT MORE DIRE AND TO BEING A FILMMAKER, I WANTED TO WRESTLE WITH AFTER MY ART SO I DECIDED, I AM GOING TO TURN THIS INTO A FIELD BUT I DID NOT REALLY KNOW HOW TO DO THAT AND I REMEMBERED THIS CRAZY IDEA I HAD YEARS AGO BUT WHAT IF SOMEONE THAT MADE A GUN THAT COULD FIRE INTO THE PAST AND I THOUGHT, THAT IS A SILLY IDEA BUT OKAY, WHAT IF A CHARACTER TRIES TO USE THAT TO REGAIN CONTROL OVER HER LIFE TO BRING IT TO A PLACE WHERE SHE FEELS LIKE SHE IS IN HER COMFORTABLE SPACE?

>> OBVIOUSLY, SHE IS A VERY EMPATHETIC CHARACTER AND IT REALLY IS A LOVE STORY AS SHE IS TRYING TO TACKLE ALL OF THESE EMOTIONS THAT SHE IS GOING THROUGH FOLLOWING THAT TIME MACHINE BEING USED FOR THE FIRST TIME.

LET'S PLAY A CLIP FROM THAT SCENE.

>> SELBY , YOU ARE KILLING A PERSON.

WE CANNOT TAKE THAT BACK.

>> IS THERE A PROBLEM?

>> NO!

I JUST PUT SO MANY YEARS OF MY LIFE INTO THIS MACHINE AND NOW WE ARE GOING TO USE IT.

>> OKAY.

YOU NEVER TESTED IT.

>> BECAUSE I DID NOT HAVE TO BUT ALL OF MY CALCULATIONS SHOW THAT IT WILL WORK.

>> WELL, WE ARE GOING TO FIND OUT.

>> BOY, DID THEY FIND OUT.

YOU WROTE IN AN ESSAY, I FIND MYSELF REGRETTING MY CHOICES.

WHY DID IT TAKE ME SO LONG TO BUT THEN I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD AND READY EARLIER IN MY LIFE.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT REGRETS AND YOUNG FILMMAKERS WHO TAKE THESE LEAPS INTO THESE CREATIVE AMBITIONS AND CHALLENGES AND VISIONS EARLIER IN THEIR CAREER.

HOW MUCH OF THIS FILM IS BASED ON THAT?

>> I THINK A LOT OF THIS FILM IS ME DEALING WITH THE CHOICES I HAVE MADE AND RECONSIDERING THEM BUT IT WAS ALSO ME WORKING THROUGH THEM AND REALIZING AS MUCH AS I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO CHANGE THE PAST, THE PAST IS THE PAST AND THE CHOICES I HAVE MADE HAVE LED ME TO WHO I AM TODAY.

AND I AM HAPPY WITH WHO I AM, TODAY.

I LIKE MY LIFE.

I LIKE MY FAMILY.

I LIKE WHERE I LIVE.

I LIKE THAT I AM HERE TALKING TO YOU .

I LIKE THIS MOVIE.

AND IF YOU WERE TO GO BACK AND CHANGE SOMETHING, WHO KNOWS WHERE YOU WOULD BE SO IT IS BETTER TO ACCEPT THE SLINGS AND >> AND I AM HAPPY THAT YOU ARE TALKING TO ME, AS WELL.

AND I APPRECIATE THE TIME.

I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED , I WOULD HAVE LIKED IT IF BOTH YOU AND JUDY GREER COULD HAVE BEEN SITTING HERE TALKING TO ME BUT THE SLINGS AND ARROWS OF LIFE NOW HAS LED US TO THE SITUATION THAT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT AND THAT IS THIS WRITER AND ACTOR'S STRIKE WHICH IS PRECLUDED HER FROM BEING HERE.

IT IS GOING ON FOR MORE THAN 100 DAYS AND SURPASSED THE PREVIOUS TRACK TO BECOME THE FOUR LONGEST WRITER'S STRIKE IN HISTORY.

TALK ABOUT THE TIME OF THIS .

TO PROMOTE A FIELD THAT YOU HAVE WORKED SO HARD ON IN THE MIDST OF THIS ROLE SHAKEUP IN THE INDUSTRY.

>> AS THE DIRECTOR, I AM BLESSED WITH THE ABILITY TO ACTUALLY BE OUT HERE AND TALK ABOUT IT BUT IT IS REALLY UNFORTUNATE, I THINK, THAT THE TPT WILL NOT GIVE A FAIR DEAL TO THE CREATIVE'S FOR ALL OF THE AMAZING WORK WE SEE AND THAT FORCES US TO BE IN THE SITUATION.

YOU NEED TO BE PAID A FAIR WAGE FOR WHAT WE DO.

AND THE WAY THE INDUSTRY HAS SORT OF SHOOK OUT OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, WE ARE NOT, ANYMORE.

AND I HATE THAT JUDY IS NOT HERE.

I WANT TO BE BESIDE ME.

I WANT HER DOING Q&A'S WITH ME.

I WANT JUDY OUT THERE.

SHE WAS MY PARTNER IN SO MUCH OF THIS MOVIE AND TO NOT BE ABLE TO SHARE WITH HER IS REALLY TOUGH BUT I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND AND BELIEVE THAT ACTORS AND WRITERS ARE DOING WHAT THEY NEED TO DO AND HOPEFULLY, THEY WILL SEE THAT .

>> WHAT IS YOUR STANCE ON THE FACT THAT THERE IS A BOUT FOR INDEPENDENT ELVES LIKE YOURS AND OTHERS BECAUSE MARK RUFFALO WHO IS A VERY OUTSPOKEN ACTOR AND ACTIVIST TWEETED THIS, HOW ABOUT WE ALL JUMP IN.

SO THERE IS ACTUAL COMPETITION.

IS THAT AN OVERSIMPLIFICATION OF THE OCCASION OR DO YOU THINK THAT IS THE RIGHT APPROACH?

>> I THINK THERE ARE SOME REALLY INTERESTING IDEAS OUT THERE IN TERMS OF HOW WE CAN CHANGE THE SYSTEM AND CREATE A HEALTHY MARKETPLACE THE INDEPENDENT REAL WORLD HAS BEEN REALLY HARD IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS BY THE RISE OF THE STREAMING.

IT IS HARDER FOR EVERYONE TO TAKE , TO MAKE MONEY ON THE UPSIDE OF SOMETHING THAT IS SUCCESSFUL SO I DO THINK IT IS WORTH EXPLORING DIFFERENT MODELS BESIDES WHAT WE HAVE NOWADAYS , UNFORTUNATELY.

>> JARED, AGAIN, HOPEFULLY, WE WILL HAVE YOU ON WITH JUDY IN THE FUTURE BUT IT HAS BEEN A DELIGHT TO TALK TO ABOUT THIS VERY CREATIVE.

I REALLY ENJOYED WATCHING IT AND I REALLY ENJOYED TALKING TO YOU ABOUT IT SO THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM, TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN-UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING US ON PBS.