August 16, 2024

>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> THE IMPACT OF CLIMATE CHANGE IS VISIBLE EVERYWHERE.

TWO YEARS SINCE THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, I ASK FORMER WHITE HOUSE CLIMATE CZAR, GINA McCARTHY, ABOUT THE STAKES OF THE U.S. ELECTION.

70 MILES IN THE DARIEN GAP, THE ATLANTIC'S CAITLIN DICKERSON AND LINDSAY A DARIO ON THE TREACHEROUS ROUTE MIGRANTS TAKE THROUGH THE JUNGLE TO THE U.S. BORDER.

ALSO AHEAD -- >> WE ARE VERY OPTIMISTIC.

HUMAN GENETICS WILL WORK IS ALLOWED.

>> Reporter: DENNIS HAS HAVE US TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE HUGE POTENTIAL OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

FROM DRIVERLESS CARS TO MEDICAL BREAKTHROUGHS.

>> JAMES BOND WAS A GENIUS, PERIOD.

>> Reporter: 100 YEARS SINCE THE BIRTH OF JAMES BALDWIN, WE LOOK BACK AT CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR'S CONVERSATION WITH THE FILM MAKER TO BARRY JENKINS AS HE BRINGS "IF BEALE STREET COULD TALK" TO THE BIG SCREEN.

>>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WE ARE, SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

MARK BLECHNER, THE FILM AND FOUNDATION.

THE PETER PETERSON AND JOAN CHARLES ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY CASK, AND JEFF ROGERS.

IN MY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THIS WEEK, U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES KAMALA HARRIS AND DONALD TRUMP HAVE BEEN DIGGING INTO THE ECONOMICS.

TALKING ABOUT INFLATION IN ISSUES LIKE PRICE GOUGING.

SO FAR IN THEIR CAMPAIGNS, ONE BIG TOPIC HAS GONE ALMOST UNMENTIONED.

CLIMATE.

WHILE THE CANDIDATES ARE QUIET, THE EARTH, WELL, IT IS SCREAMING.

TEMPERATURE RECORDS ARE BEING SHATTERED.

WILDFIRES ARE SPREADING AND NEW STUDIES ARE REVEALING A TERRIFYING REALITY.

ONE EUROPEAN REPORT FINDING THAT HEAT TURBOCHARGED FIGHT CLIMATE POLLUTION KILLED UP TO 50,000 PEOPLE ON THE CONTINENT LAST YEAR ALONE.

TWO YEARS AGO TODAY, THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT WAS SIGNED INTO LAW.

THE LARGEST EVER INVESTMENT IN RENEWABLES AND CLEAN ENERGY JOBS.

BUT CHALLENGES CONTINUE.

MANY ARGUE IT IS LIKELY FAR ENOUGH IN SOME POLITICAL ENTITIES, THE PRO-TRUMP PROJECT 2025, TRYING TO WIPE AWAY CLEAN ENERGY INITIATIVES ALTOGETHER.

GINA McCARTHY SERVED AS EPA ADMINISTRATOR AND THEN WHITE HOUSE CLIMATE ADVISER WHERE SHE HELPED CRAFT THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT.

SHE JOINS THE SHOW FROM BOSTON.

GINA, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

WHAT A WILD FEW WEEKS IT HAS BEEN.

A NEW CANDIDATE AT THE TOP OF THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET.

AND I AM CURIOUS, THE TOP OF THIS CONVERSATION, IF YOU ARE SURPRISED THAT OF ALL OF THE TOPICS THAT HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED THUS FAR, I KNOW IT IS EARLY WINDING DOWN, THE ELECTION JUST A FEW MONTHS AWAY.

THAT WE HAVE NOT HEARD SPECIFICALLY FROM KAMALA HARRIS ON THE ISSUE OF CLIMATE.

>> WELL, I AM NOT SURPRISED AT ALL, FRANKLY.

I AM ECSTATIC RIGHT NOW ABOUT THE CHANGE THAT IS HAPPENING AND THE ABILITY TO HAVE MS. HARRIS' TEAM MOVE FORWARD.

IT IS JUST AMAZING.

SO I THINK THAT MANY OF US HAVE BEEN LISTENING AND HEARD SNIPPETS ABOUT CLIMATE.

BUT I DO NOT HAVE ANY QUESTION ABOUT THE COMMITMENT OF VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS IN THE COMMITMENT OF GOVERNOR WALZ.

I MEAN, THEY HAVE DISPLAYED IT BY THEIR WORK SO FAR IN GOVERNMENT.

AND I AM EXCITED ABOUT IT.

FRANKLY, THIS TWO-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT IS THE BIGGEST BIRTHDAY PRESENT THAT I COULD EVER GET.

IT IS JUST AMAZING HOW IT HAS BEEN MOVING OUR COUNTRY TOWARD CLEAN ENERGY.

I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT WILL CONTINUE UNDER A BIDEN / TIM WALZ MINISTRATION.

SORRY, HARRIS / TIM WALZ ADMINISTRATION.

>> Reporter: YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE EXCITED FOR, LOOKING AT THIS NEW TICKET.

AND YOU LOOK AT GOVERNOR WALZ RECORD IN PARTICULAR.

HE MAY CLIMATE A HUGE ISSUE FOR MINNESOTA.

HE SIGNED A LAW LAST YEAR MANDATING THAT MINNESOTA GET ALL OF ITS ELECTRICITY FROM SOLAR, WIND, AND OTHER CARBON FREE SOURCES BY 2024.

I AM WONDERING, AS WE ARE ENTERING NEXT WEEK WITH THE DNC AND EACH NIGHT HAVING A DIFFERENT THEME, ON THE NIGHT THAT IT FOCUSES MORE ON THE ECONOMY, ARE YOU EXPECTING TO HEAR MORE ABOUT SOME OF THE INITIATIVES THAT GOVERNOR WALZ INTRODUCED IN HIS ESTATE AND HOW THAT COULD HAVE AN APPEAL, PERHAPS, NATIONWIDE IN A DEMOCRATIC VISION?

IN TERMS OF BOTH COMBINING IMPROVEMENT AND GROWTH TO THE ECONOMY WHILE ALSO ADDRESSING CLIMATE?

>> I DO EXPECT MORE TO COME.

AND I DO KNOW THAT VICE DISCUSSING SOME OF THE NEW POLICIES THAT HER AND GOVERNOR WALZ ARE PLANNING.

SO I AM EXCITED TO HEAR WHAT SHE HAS TO SAY.

BUT THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION THIS YEAR IS GOING TO BE AN EXCITING ONE THAT IS FILLED WITH HOPE AND OPPORTUNITY.

BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE NEED TO HEAR ABOUT.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY KNOWS HOW TO MAKE THINGS HAPPEN IN OUR COUNTRY.

THAT BENEFITS EVERY STATE, EVERY DISTRICT, AND EVERY FAMILY.

THAT IS WHAT THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT WAS INTENDED TO DO.

AND IS REALLY OVERCOMPENSATING FOR WHAT WE THOUGHT WAS GOING TO BE A SHIFT.

NOW IT IS MONUMENTAL.

SO I DO THINK THAT --THE DNC, THE CELEBRATING OF THE CHANGE, AND REALLY MOVING FORWARD TO TALK ABOUT EVERY ASPECT OF POLICY THAT WE CAN, TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS MOVEMENT TO HELP PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRY AND GROW GOOD, CLEAN ENERGY JOBS AND SAFE FAMILY MONEY, ALL OF THIS WILL CONTINUE.

>> WE HAVE NOT HEARD MUCH OF AN ENERGY PLAN FROM FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP EITHER.

I KNOW THE CLAIMANT ACTIVIST LIKE YOURSELF ARE CONCERNED OF WHAT ANOTHER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION COULD SEE, GIVEN THAT THE LAST TIME HE TOOK THE U.S. OUT OF THE HARRIS CLIMATE ACCORDS.

YOU TOLD THE GUARDIAN, SPECIFICALLY WITH REFERENCE TO PROJECT 2025, WHICH I SHOULD NOTE THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS REALLY DISTANCED HIMSELF FROM.

HIS PREVIOUS AND MINISTRATION, INCLUDING HIS FORMER OMB DIRECTOR.

QUOTE, IT SEEMS LIKE THE ROAD MADE TO HELL WITH EVIL INTENTIONS.

EXPLAIN TO US IN YOUR VIEWERS KIND OF WARNING YOU ARE GIVING VIEWERS WITH REGARD TO HOW YOU FEAR HE MAY HANDLE CLIMATE.

>> I THINK THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN A TRUMP AND HARRIS ADMINISTRATION ARE PRETTY START.

AND HE MAY WANT TO DISOWN PROJECT 2025, BUT HE CANNOT.

THAT IS HIS BABY.

AND I THINK HE IS RECOGNIZING THAT IT IS VERY EXTREME.

I MEAN, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ELIMINATING TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF AGENCIES AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, WHICH HE MAY FIND JOYFUL, I FIND THREATENING.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY A THREAT THAT UNDERMINES OUR DEMOCRACY.

IF YOU LOOK AT THAT IN DETAIL.

FRANKLY, EVEN JUST GLANCE AT IT.

IT REALLY HAS A SHOCKING NUMBER OF RIDICULOUS, IF YOU CARE ABOUT AMERICA IN OUR COUNTRY, RIDICULOUS PROPOSALS THAT WOULD ELIMINATE NOT JUST HOLD AGENCIES, BUT, FRANKLY, TOTALLY UNDERMINE OUR DEMOCRACY.

SO HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, HE IS WALKING AWAY FROM THAT, RECOGNIZING THAT IT WAS NOT AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE, IN TERMS OF DEVELOPING HIS VISION OF THE FUTURE.

BUT MY FEAR IS, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS THE FUTURE TO LOOK LIKE.

>> IT IS INTERESTING.

SOME OF THE TRADITIONAL PLAYERS YOU WOULD THINK FROM INDUSTRIES THAT WOULD GO AND SUPPORT WHOLEHEARTEDLY ANOTHER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HAVE NOW MADE SO MANY ADVANCEMENTS AND MOVED FORWARD, REGARDING THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, REGARDING CLIMATE CHANGE, WITH REGARDS TO RENEWABLE ENERGY.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ENERGY SECTOR ITSELF.

THAT NOW THEY VIEW, IF ANYTHING, ANOTHER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THEY WOULD HAVE TO WALK BACK SOME OF THE INVESTMENTS THEY HAVE ALREADY MADE.

THAT COUPLED WITH SOME OF TRUMP'S BIGGEST SUPPORTERS ACTUALLY EMBRACING CLIMATE RESEARCH AND INVESTMENT, LIKE ELON MUSK, FOR EXAMPLE, HAD MADE FOR STRANGE BEDFELLOWS AND PUT REPUBLICANS IN DONALD TRUMP IN AN AWKWARD POSITION.

I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY A SOUND FOR YOU FROM THE INTERVIEW, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, BETWEEN DONALD TRUMP AND ELON MUSK ON X EARLIER THIS WEEK.

>> THE BIGGEST THREAT IS NOT GLOBAL WARMING, WHERE THE OCEAN WILL RISE 1/8 OF AN INCH OVER THE NEXT 400 YEARS.

AND YOU WILL HAVE MORE, YOU WILL HAVE MORE OCEANFRONT PROPERTY, RIGHT?

>> I AM PROENVIRONMENT, BUT I AM NOT AGAINST, YOU KNOW, I DO NOT THINK WE SHOULD VILIFY THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY BECAUSE THEY ARE KEEPING CIVILIZATION GOING RIGHT NOW.

BUT I DO THINK WE WANT TO MOVE, YOU KNOW, AT A REASONABLE SPEED TOWARDS A SUSTAINABLE ENERGY ECONOMY.

>> IS THAT REASSURING AT ALL TO YOU, GINA, REGARDLESS OF HOW HE MAY FEEL PERSONALLY, TRUMP, BECAUSE OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH ELON MUSK, AS HE JOKES, HAS EMBRACED ELECTRIC VEHICLES, AND THE WAY ELON HAS DESCRIBED HIMSELF, HE, FOR ONE, DOES NOT WANT TO VILIFY THE ENERGY INDUSTRY AT THIS POINT?

>> IN THE END, I THINK WHAT THEY BOTH CARE ABOUT MORE THAN ANYTHING IS MONEY.

LET'S BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

I MEAN, CLEARLY, ELON MUSK PASS TO BE TALKING IN THOSE TERMS ABOUT CLEAN ENERGY BECAUSE HE IS ONE OF THE DRIVERS OF CLEAN ENERGY WITH ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

SO HE IS NOT GOING TO UNDERMINE HIS OWN BUSINESS.

BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP, YOU KNOW, TO SAY THAT THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT HOMES WILL BE DESTROYED ALONG OUR OCEANFRONT PROPERTIES IT IS JUST, YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO SAY IT, IT IS NOT JUST STRANGE, IT IS WEIRD.

I THINK WEIRD IS THE WORD I WOULD USE FOR BOTH OF THOSE FOLKS IN THE CONVERSATION THAT THEY HAD YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO GET, WE HAVE TO GET SMART IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT BILLION IN INVESTMENT IN JUST ITS TWO-YEAR HISTORY.

AND THIS IS A 10 YEAR HORIZON.

WHY IS THAT HAPPENING?

BECAUSE BUSINESSES WANT TO INVEST, THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY.

THIS GIVES THEM AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE MONEY IN A WAY THAT IS GOING TO BENEFIT ALL OF US.

LOTS OF NEW JOBS, LOWER FAMILY COSTS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITY OF A LIFETIME.

WE HAVE TO GET AWAY FROM TWO PEOPLE THAT HAVE DISCONNECT DID, IN MANY WAYS, WITH REALITY.

YOU TALK ABOUT REAL HUMAN BEINGS.

3.4 MILLION HOMES HAVE INVESTED IN ENERGY USING THE REBATES, THE NEW CLEAN ENERGY USING THE REBATES AND EFFICIENCY PROGRAMS THAT WE HAVE AVAILABLE TO THEM.

LOOK, THE UNITED STATES DESERVES BETTER THAN TO LISTEN TO THOSE TWO.

WE HAVE TO LISTEN WITH OUR HEART AND LISTEN WITH HER HEAD, AND TALK TO REAL LIFE HUMAN BEINGS AND WHAT THEY NEED.

THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT HAS IT HAS PROVIDED FAMILIES CHEAPER ENERGY COSTS, THEY NEED THAT.

LET'S KEEP FOCUSED ON REALITY HERE, AND LET'S KEEP PUSHING.

WE HAVE ANOTHER A YEARS OF THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT.

AND I AM HUGELY EXCITED ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGIES AND OPPORTUNITIES THAT WE ARE GOING TO SEE DURING THAT PERIOD.

AND GRAB, FOR OURSELVES, FOR US AND FRIENDLY THE ENTIRE WORLD, BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO LEAD.

YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL AND IT IS, IN FACT, KILLING THE EARTH.

>> Reporter: WE WILL SEE, WE WILL BE WATCHING CLOSELY HOLLY HARRIS AND WALLS CAMPAIGN FOCUSES NEXT WEEK AT THE DNC ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE.

GINA McCARTHY, ANYBODY, ANYTHING BUT WEIRD.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU, AGAIN.

>> THANKS SO MUCH.

>>> CLIMATE CHANGE IS A CRUCIAL FACTOR FUELING RECORD LEVELS OF MIGRATION ACROSS THE GLOBE.

NO MIGRATION IS ALREADY A KEY TOUCHSTONE IN THE APPROACHING BOTH CANDIDATES TALKING ABOUT IT AT THEIR RALLIES.

>> WE KNOW OUR IMMIGRATION SYSTEM IS BROKEN.

AND WE KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO FIX IT.

COMPREHENSIVE REFORM THAT INCLUDES, YES, STRONG BORDER SECURITY, AND AN EARNED PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP.

>> MOST OF THE JOB CREATION HAS GONE TO MIGRANTS.

IN FACT, I HAVE HEARD THAT SUBSTANTIALLY MORE THAN, BEYOND, ACTUALLY BEYOND THE NUMBER OF 100%, IT IS A MUCH HIGHER NUMBER THAN THAT.

>> BUT WHAT IS BEHIND ALL OF THIS TALK?

IF YOU ARE THE HUMAN BEINGS MAKING THE TERRIFYING DECISION TO FLEE THEIR HOMES?

THAT IS THE FOCUS OF THIS MONTH'S COVER STORY FOR THE ATLANTIC.

BY KAYLA DICKERSON AND LYNSEY ADDARIO, ALONGSIDE MIGRANTS, JOURNEYED TWICE THROUGH THE NOTORIOUS AND LETHAL DARIEN GAP BROUGHT TOWARD THE UNITED STATES.

AND THEY BOTH JOIN ME NOW.

KATELYN AND LINDSAY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

KAITLYN, I WILL START WITH YOU.

THIS IS AN ISSUE YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING FOR MANY YEARS.

I AM WONDERING WHAT FINALLY LED YOU EARLIER THIS YEAR TO START MAKING THIS TREK YOURSELF?

>> THE NUMBERS.

I WATCHED THE DARIEN GAP, THIS AREA ONCE THOUGHT TO BE COMPLETELY IMPASSABLE, YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO THE 1700s, OTHER NATIONS HAVE TRIED TO COLONIZE THIS VERY DENSE JUNGLE.

AS YOU SAID, IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO WALK NORTH OUT OF SOUTH AMERICA.

AND SO PRIOR TO THE YEAR 2015 WHEN WE SAW THE FIRST LITTLE SPIKE, YOU WOULD REALLY ONLY SEE A FEW HUNDRED PEOPLE ATTEMPT TO BRAVE THIS AREA EACH YEAR.

AND IT HAS COMPLETELY CHANGED.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MORE THAN HALF 1 MILLION PEOPLE WHO DID THIS JOURNEY LAST YEAR ALONE.

AND THEY ARE COMING FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.

THE LARGEST NUMBER COME FROM VENEZUELA.

BUT YOU HAVE REPRESENTATION ALL OVER AFRICA, EAST AND SOUTH ASIA, AND THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA.

AND AS SOMEBODY WHO COVERS MIGRATION, IT WAS JUST SOMETHING THAT I COULD NO LONGER IGNORE.

I THINK THE SEVERITY OF THE MOVEMENT THROUGH THIS PART OF THE WORLD JUST HIGHLIGHTS HOW SIGNIFICANT THE GLOBAL MIGRATION CRISIS HAS BECOME, HOW DESPERATE PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD HAVE BECOME TO TAKE THIS JOURNEY.

AND SO IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I FELT I HAD TO SEE FOR MYSELF.

>> Reporter: I WANT TO GET TO YOU, LINDSAY, WITH WHAT YOU ACTUALLY SAW IN THE MIGRANTS THAT YOU MET AND ENCOUNTERED ALONG THIS GRUELING JOURNEY.

KAITLYN, JUST ON THE ISSUE, AND THIS DELICATE BALANCE THAT NUMEROUS ADMINISTRATIONS, TIME AND TIME AGAIN, HAVE HAD TO MAKE, IN TERMS OF DECIPHERING THOSE WHO ARE LEAVING FOR SAFETY REASONS, AND THOSE WHO ARE LEAVING FOR ECONOMIC REASONS.

AND YOU SPOKE TO THE U.S.

AMBASSADOR IN PANAMA ABOUT THIS, OTHER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS.

AND WHAT YOU NOTE IS SO IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE YOU SAY PEOPLE MIGRATE IT IS USUALLY NOT A BINARY OPTION FOR SO MANY OF THESE PEOPLE.

IN TERMS OF HEARING FROM BOTH CANDIDATES AND THE INTRODUCTION OF THIS PIECE, IT REALLY STOOD OUT TO ME THAT MANY OF THESE MIGRANTS ARE WELL AWARE OF THE LEGAL SYSTEM HERE, IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY COULD ENCOUNTER.

I WILL QUOTE FROM YOUR PEACE, MANY MIGRANTS I MET IN THE DARIEN GAP NEW WHICH TYPES OF CASES PREVAIL IN AMERICAN IMMIGRATION COURTS IN WHICH DO NOT.

THEY WERE PREPARED TO EMPHASIZE WHICHEVER ASPECT OF THEIR STORY WOULD BE MOST LIKELY TO GET THEIR CHILDREN TO SAFETY.

I FOUND THAT FASCINATING, KATELYN.

>> IT IS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I FOCUSED ON IN MY WORK AND THAT WAS A PRIORITY FOR ME IN THE DARIEN GAP WAS TO LOOK AT THE TOOLS THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS RELIED ON AGAIN, AND AGAIN, TO RESPOND TO GLOBAL MIGRATION.

IT GROWS EACH YEAR.

RIGHT NOW, THE PLANET WHO ARE CURRENTLY MIGRATING FROM THEIR HOMES.

OVER 170 MILLION PEOPLE TOTAL.

AND, YOU KNOW, I HAVE SPENT YEARS LOOKING AT HOW WE HAVE RESPONDED TO THAT.

LARGELY THROUGH DETERRENT POLICIES.

POLICIES PUT INTO PLACE AT THE SOUTHERN / U.S. BORDER, AS WELL AS BY PRESSURING OTHER NATIONS, ESPECIALLY IN LATIN AMERICA, TO CRACKDOWN ON THEIR OWN IMMIGRATION SYSTEMS, AND BASICALLY TRY TO STOP PEOPLE EITHER BEFORE THEY LEAVE HOME OR EN ROUTE TO THE UNITED STATES.

ANOTHER OF THESE TOOLS HAS BEEN TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN WHO QUALIFIES UNDER THE LAW AS A LEGITIMATE REFUGEE OR ASYLUM SEEKER, VERSUS AN ECONOMIC MIGRANT.

BUT I FELT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO CONVEY IN THIS PIECE THAT'S, YOU KNOW, YEARS OF EXPERIENCE HAS SHOWN ME THAT PEOPLE HAVE MANY REASONS FOR WHICH THEY ARE MIGRATING.

AND I KNOW THE AMERICAN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM.

STUCK ON THIS ISSUE FOR YEARS WITH NO MOVEMENT, SINCE THE 90s.

AND IN THAT TIME, THE INTERNATIONAL SMUGGLING NETWORKS THAT MOVE PEOPLE ACROSS THE GLOBE ARE RUNNING CIRCLES AROUND OUR FIRST APPARATUS.

THEY KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE.

AND THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY, VERY DESPERATE.

CARRYING THEIR CHILDREN THROUGH, YOU KNOW, UNIMAGINABLY HARROWING SCENES, WHICH I'M SURE WE WILL GET INTO.

ANY RATIONAL OR LOGICAL PERSON KNOWING THE LAWS IS GOING TO RESPOND IN INTERVIEWS IN A WAY THAT THEY KNOW IS GOING TO BE MORE LIKELY TO GET THEIR CHILDREN AND THEMSELVES TO SAFETY.

>> Reporter: DEMOCRATIC SHORTLY AND HAVE BEEN CRITICIZED FOR NOT TAKING THIS ISSUE SERIOUSLY.

AND REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN CRITICIZED FOR INSTALLING FEAR MONGERING.

THE PRESENT THEY'RE EXPRESSING FALSEHOOD AFTER FALSEHOOD.

TAKING --SAYING THEY ARE TAKING MORE THAN 100% OF U.S. JOBS, THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE.

BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN SOME OF THE PHOTOS.

IT REALLY PAINTS A PICTURE OF A SYSTEM THAT IS BROKEN, NOT ONLY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT IN MANY COUNTRIES, THAT IS DRIVING ALL OF THESE PEOPLE TO SEEK SHELTER, SECURITY, JOBS FOR THEIR CHILDREN IN THE UNITED STATES, AND IN MEXICO, FOR SOME OF THESE FAMILIES.

YOU PHOTOGRAPHED A GROUP OF OVER 600 PEOPLE SITTING OFF IN THE JUNGLE AT THE START OF THIS TRAIL.

IN A WEIRD WAY, ALMOST, HEY, WE ARE SHOWING THAT PICTURE, IT LOOKS LIKE SOME KIND OF EXCURSION.

THAT IS NOT THE CASE HERE THOUGH.

BECAUSE THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE DESPERATE, THEY ARE CARRYING THEIR CHILDREN, LITERALLY, THEIR BAGS THAT YOU SEE THEM CARRYING, IT HAS ALL OF THEIR BELONGINGS THAT THEY BROUGHT WITH THEM TO START NEW LIVES.

EXPLAIN FOR US WHAT YOU SAW AT THE START OF THIS TREK.

>> YEAH, I THINK WHAT WAS SO SURPRISING AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TRAIL WAS HOW MUCH STUFF PEOPLE BROUGHT ALONG.

NOT REALLY KNOWING HOW PHYSICALLY GRUELING IT WOULD BE.

I THINK IT IS ONE THING TO HAVE A SORT OF UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TOUGH THE TRAIL WOULD BE, IT IS ANOTHER THING TO BE 24 HOURS IN, TO START RUNNING OUT OF MAPS FOR SLEEPING, MANY CHANGES OF CLOTHES, AND THEN STARTING TO REALIZE THAT IT WAS JUST PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BE ABLE TO CARRY ONE'S OWN CHILDREN, THE THINGS THEY NEEDED.

AND SO PEOPLE JUST STARTED ABANDONING THINGS ALONG THE WAY, ALONG THE ROUTE.

YES.

IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS TRAIL, IT SEEMED ALMOST LIKE A TOURISM TRUCK THROUGH A RIVER, OF COURSE, THE IRONY IS THAT THESE ARE PEOPLE FLEEING FOR THEIR LIVES, YOU KNOW, SOME WERE MORE INFORMED THAN OTHERS, SOME ARE BETTER PREPARED THAN OTHERS.

BUT SOME PEOPLE, IT WAS SHOCKING HOW LITTLE THEY HAD TO BE ABLE TO SURVIVE.

>> Reporter: AND HOW LITTLE THEY KNEW ABOUT HOW GRUELING THIS TRUCK ACTUALLY WOULD BE.

SOME WERE TOLD THAT IT WOULD TAKE A COUPLE OF DAYS, IT WOULD NOT BE THAT DIFFICULT.

AS YOU NOTED IN THIS PIECE, THAT OBVIOUSLY WAS NOT THE CASE.

KAITLYN, YOU SPENT A LOT OF TIME FOCUSING ON A VENEZUELAN FAMILY, A FATHER TRAVELING WITH THE MOTHER OF HIS PARTNER'S COUSIN, THEREFORE CHILDREN WITH THEM IN TOTAL.

AND THEY HAVE HAD TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS IN REAL TIME.

CHILDREN HUNGRY, TIRED, THEY ARE HAVING TO LOSE SOME OF THEIR BELONGINGS AS THEY ARE GOING.

THE INTERNAL TENSION BETWEEN THIS GROUP AS THEY ARE GOING ON IN THESE SLEEPLESS, GRUELING DAYS.

BUT WHAT REALLY STOOD OUT TO ME IS THAT YOU TOLD US A BIT MORE DETAIL ABOUT WHO THEY WERE.

HE TRAINS, HE WENT TO COLLEGE, STUDIED TO BE AN ENGINEER, HIS PARTNER, A NURSE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN WE ASK THE QUESTION, WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

THAT GIVES YOU A BIT OF A SENSE OF THEIR BACKGROUNDS.

>> THAT IS RIGHT.

YOU CAN SEE HERE, LINDSEY DID SUCH AN INCREDIBLE JOB DOCUMENTING HOW PHYSICALLY GRUELING THIS JOURNEY WAS.

AND THERE ARE SO MANY LAYERS TO THEIR STORY.

YOU KNOW, THEY ARE ALMOST A CLASSIC CASE IN THE DARIEN GAP, I MENTIONED THERE IS AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF DIVERSITY, PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD IN ALL DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, LIKE THIS FAMILY.

BURKAN AND BURKAN, THE TWO PARENTS, THEY WERE FOR MIDDLE- CLASS HOME, BURKAN'S MOTHER WAS A LAWYER, BURKAN' HIS MOTHER WAS A DOCTOR.

SO THEY HAD THIS WHOLE LIFE SET OUT IN FRONT OF THEM.

THEY WERE IN COLLEGE WHEN THE VENEZUELAN ECONOMY BEGAN TO SPIRAL.

AND THAT WAS AROUND 2014.

OBVIOUSLY IT HAS NOT RECOVERED SINCE, THINGS HAVE ONLY BECOME MORE DANGEROUS, MORE UNSTABLE.

AND CERTAINLY ECONOMICALLY UNTENABLE.

AND SO THEY WATCHED THIS MIDDLE- CLASS FUTURE THAT THEY WERE PLANNING FOR VANISH BEFORE THEIR EYES, ANOTHER THING THAT MAKES THEIR CASE A COMMON ONE IN THE DARIEN GAP IS THAT THEY TRIED TO RESETTLE ELSEWHERE BEFORE MOVING TOWARD THE UNITED STATES.

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE VERY CLEAR WITH US, THEIR GOAL IS TO GET THEY ARE NOT CHASING AN AMERICAN DREAM.

THEY WOULD PREFER TO BE AT HOME.

BUT BECAUSE VENEZUELA WAS SO IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM AS A FAMILY, THEY MOVED 1st TO PERU, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE WORKING ODD JOBS, SLEEPING IN A STUDIO APARTMENT ON A MATTRESS THEY'VE DRAGGED IN FROM THE STREET, AND THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO FEED THEIR KIDS.

SO THEY WERE GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY WHEN A FAMILY MEMBER'S BOYFRIEND WHO LIVED IN TEXAS OFFERED TO LEND THEM IN SOME MONEY TO GET TO THE UNITED STATES.

AND THEY REALLY FELT LIKE THAT WAS THROWING A HAIL MARY PASS TO TRY TO SAVE THEIR LIVES AND THEIR CHILDREN'S FUTURES.

NOT SOMETHING THEY WANTED TO BE DOING, BUT THEY FELT THEY HAD NO OTHER CHOICE.

>> Reporter: SO MUCH OF THIS, AND RIGHTLY SO, IS FOCUSED ON THE CHILDREN WHO ARE BROUGHT ALONG THIS JOURNEY AND MAKE THIS DANGEROUS TRACK.

SO MANY, SADLY, DO NOT MAKE IT THROUGH.

160,000 CHILDREN, ACCORDING TO UNICEF, ACROSS THE DARIEN GAP THIS YEAR.

THAT IS A 34% INCREASE JUST FROM LAST YEAR ALONE.

LINDSAY, YOU FOCUSED ON A PHOTOGRAPH ON AN INTIMATE MOMENT BETWEEN A SEVEN-YEAR-OLD GIRL COMFORTING HER CRYING MOTHER, A CHILD COMFORTING HER MOTHER.

TELL US ABOUT THIS PICTURE.

>> THIS MOMENT IN PARTICULAR WAS SO HEARTBREAKING BECAUSE YOU SEE THESE CHILDREN, MANY OF THE PARENTS SAY WE ARE GOING ON AN ADVENTURE, THEY ARE TRYING TO ALLAY ANY FEARS THAT MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING FUN AND NOT SOMETHING, OF COURSE, THAT IS LIFE-THREATENING AND EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT.

BUT MOST OF THE PARENTS WE SAW, MOST OF THE PEOPLE WE ACCOMPANIED, HAD A MOMENT WHERE THEY BROKE DOWN.

BECAUSE IT IS JUST SO PHYSICALLY GRUELING, BUT ALSO EMOTIONALLY TERRIFYING.

BECAUSE SO MANY THINGS CAN GO WRONG AT SO MANY DIFFERENT POINTS ALONG THE JOURNEY.

AND SO, IN THAT MOMENT, HER MOTHER WAS CRYING AND IT WAS JUST AMAZING TO SEE THIS YOUNG GIRL COME OVER AND COMFORT HER MOTHER.

OF COURSE, THESE KIDS ARE FORCED INTO THESE ROLES, SUDDENLY ALMOST LIKE A CAREGIVER IN CERTAIN MOMENTS.

SO THEY HAVE TO PROVIDE SOME SORT OF SUPPORT AND SAY, IT IS OKAY, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE IT.

IT IS OKAY, LET'S KEEP GOING.

YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE TIME, I THOUGHT ABOUT MY OWN CHILDREN WHILE I WAS TAKING THESE PHOTOGRAPHS IN MAKING THIS JOURNEY.

YOU KNOW, THE COURAGE THAT IT TAKES TO BE ABLE TO BRING YOUR CHILDREN ON A JOURNEY LIKE THIS.

SOME OF THE SCENES WE CAUGHT WERE BOULDERS, WHAT BOULDERS WHERE PEOPLE HAD TO SCALE WALLS WITH ROPES AND HOPE THAT THE ROPES WERE ATTACHED STRONGLY ENOUGH THAT IT WOULD HOLD THE WEIGHT OF WHOEVER WAS CROSSING, WALKING THROUGH RIVERS FOR HOURS AT A TIME, YOU KNOW, IN AND OUT OF RIVERS, SLEEPING IN HAMMOCKS OR ON THE GROUND, BEING CONSTANTLY WET.

IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT.

>> Reporter: WE DO NOT HAVE SPECIFIC NUMBERS AS TO HOW MANY PEOPLE ACTUALLY DIE ALONG THIS TRACK, BUT YOU TOOK ONE PHOTO, IT IS VERY CHILLING.

IT GIVES YOU A SENSE THAT MANY DO NOT MAKE IT.

IT IS JUST A SKULL BY A TREE TRUNK THAT YOU ALSO TOOK THERE, A REMINDER THAT NOT EVERYONE COMES OUT OF THIS ALIVE.

I HAVE TO SAY, LINDSEY, WOULD REALLY STOOD OUT TO ME THERE WAS AN INTERVIEW THAT YOU CONDUCT IT WITH A VIETNAMESE MOTHER WHO MADE THE TREK WITH HER YOUNG SON ON THE FIFTH DAY OF THIS TREK, SHE LOST HIM.

THEY BOTH GOT PULLED INTO WATER IN A FLOOD.

AND SHE NEVER FOUND HIM AGAIN.

AND MOVED TO THE UNITED STATES, NOW I BELIEVE SHE WORKS AT A NAIL SALON IN BOSTON, AND IS CONSTANTLY ASKING YOU IF THERE IS ANY INFORMATION ABOUT HER SON.

A REALLY IMPORTANT PIECE, IT REALLY HUMANIZES THIS TRAGIC STORY THAT THE WHOLE WORLD REALLY SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON.

BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING THAT IMPACTS ALL OF US.

KATELYN DICKERSON, LINDSAY A DARIO, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THINK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US.

>>> NEXT ISN'T SOMETHING THAT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO INFLUENCE SEVERAL OF THE ISSUES WE HAVE DISCUSSED IN THE SHOW SO FAR.

FROM CLIMATE CHANGE TO PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.

AND THAT IS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

DENNIS IS THE FOUNDER AND CEO OF ONE OF THE WORLD LEADING RESEARCH GROUPS, DEEP MIND.

HE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ON WHY HE TAKES AN OPTIMISTIC APPROACH TO THE TECHNOLOGY.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THINK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IN OFFICE THERE IS A COPY OF ALAN TURING'S PAPER WHERE HE ASKED THE QUESTION, CAN A MACHINES THINK?

NOW WE HAVE A LOT OF LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS, SUCH AS GOOGLE GEMINI, WHICH YOU HELPED CREATE, CHATGPT FROM OPENAI.

HOW DO WE GET FROM A CHAT ABOUT THAT KIND OF CAN PASS THE TURING TEST, FULLY PERSON INTO SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY SERIOUS, LIKE ARTIFICIAL GENERAL INTELLIGENCE, AGI, WHAT YOU WOULD CALL THE HOLY GRAIL?

>> GREAT QUESTION.

THERE HAS BEEN UNBELIEVABLY FAST PROGRESS IN THE LAST SECOND AND A HALF, GETTING TOWARDS THE SYSTEMS THAT WE HAVE TODAY THAT CAN PASS A TURING TEST.

BUT IT IS SO FAR FROM GENERAL INTELLIGENCE.

WHAT WE ARE MISSING ARE THINGS LIKE PLANNING, MEMORY, AND TOOL USE SO THEY CAN ACTIVELY SOLVE PROBLEMS FOR US AND ACTUALLY DO TASKS.

RIGHT NOW WHAT WE HAVE IS PASSIVE SYSTEMS.

WE NEED THESE ACTIVE SYSTEMS.

>> Reporter: EXPLAINED TO ME WHAT PLANNING IS.

I KNOW YOU AND I DO IT, HOW DOES A MACHINE DO IT?

>> WE HAVE EXPERIENCED A LOT IN THE PAST WITH PLANNING USING GAMES.

ONE OF OUR MOST FAMOUS PROGRAMS BACK IN 2016 WAS OUT FOR.

A PROGRAM WE BUILT TO BEAT THE WORLD CHAMPION AT GO, THE AGENT GAME OF GO.

WE BUILT A BOARD GAME BUT WHAT KIND OF MOVES WOULD BE GOOD, IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO PLAY REALLY WELL FOR YOU ALSO NEED TO BE ABLE TO TRY OUT DIFFERENT MOVES IN YOUR MIND AND THEN PLAN AND FIGURE OUT WHICH ONE, WHICH PATH IS THE BEST PATH.

WE REALLY NEED TO BUILD THAT PLANNING CAPABILITY, THE ABILITY TO BREAK DOWN A TASK INTO A SUB TASK AND THEN INSTALLS EACH ONE IN THE RIGHT ORDER TO ACHIEVE SOME BIGGER GOAL.

IT IS STILL MISSING THAT CAPABILITY.

>> Reporter: TELL ME WHY THE USE OF GAMES IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO THE DEVELOPERS OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

>> YES.

GAMES IS WHAT GOT ME INTO ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

PLAYING A LOT OF CHEST FOR THE ENGLAND JUNIOR TEAMS AND THEN TRYING TO IMPROVE MY PROCESSES LEAD ME TO THINK ABOUT ORGANIZING INTELLIGENCE AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

SO WE USED GAMES WHEN WE STARTED DEEP MIND IN 2010 AS A TESTING GROUND, IMPROVING GROUND FOR OUR ARRHYTHMIC IDEAS.

ONE REASON THAT IS SO GOOD IS BECAUSE GAMES HAVE CLEAR OBJECTIVES.

TO WIN THE GAME OR MAXIMIZE THE POINTS THAT YOU CAN SCORE IN A GAME.

SO IT IS VERY EASY TO MAP OUT AND TRACK IF YOU ARE MAKING PROGRESS WITH YOUR ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE SYSTEMS.

IT IS A VERY CONVENIENT WAY TO DEVELOP THE ALGORITHMIC IDEAS THAT NOW UNDERPIN MODERN AI SYSTEMS.

>> MOST OF US HAVE NOW USED THE CHAT BOX, LIKE GEMINI OR CHATGPT.

BUT YOU HAVE TALKED NOT ONLY ABOUT MOVING US INTO ARTIFICIAL GENERAL INTELLIGENCE, IN OTHER WORDS, THE TYPE OF INTELLIGENCE THAT CAN DO ANYTHING A HUMAN CAN DO.

BUT I ALSO GUESS I WOULD CALL IT REAL-WORLD INTELLIGENCE.

ROBOTS OR SELF DRIVING CARS, THINGS THAT COULD TAKE IN VISUAL INFORMATION AND DO THINGS IN THE PHYSICAL REALM.

HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT AND HOW DO YOU GET THERE?

>> IT IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT, THIS IDEA OF EMBODIED INTELLIGENCE AS IT IS SOMETIMES CALLED.

SELF DRIVING CARS ARE AN EXAMPLE OF THAT, ROBOTICS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

THESE SYSTEMS CAN THEN ACTUALLY INTERACT WITH THE REAL WORLD, AS YOU SAY, THE WORLD OF ATOMS, SO TO SPEAK, AND NOT JUST BE STUCK IN THE WORLD OF BITS.

THAT WILL BE A HUGE ADVANCE WE WILL SEE IN THAT SPACE IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT ALSO WILL INVOLVE THIS PLANNING CAPABILITY AND THE ABILITY TO DO ACTIONS AND CARRY OUT PLANS IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE CERTAIN GOALS.

THAT IS NOT THE ONLY AREA OF REAL-WORLD APPLICATION.

ONE OTHER AREA THAT I AM SUPER PASSIONATE ABOUT AND THE REASON I SPENT MY WHOLE CAREER BUILDING AI IS TO APPLY AI TO SCIENCE, SCIENTIFIC PROBLEMS, SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERY.

INCLUDING OUR PROGRAM TO CRACK THE CHALLENGE OF TEAM FOLDING.

>> Reporter: TELL US MORE ABOUT ALPHA FOLD.

RNA, DNA, ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT WE CAN DETERMINE WHAT APPROACHING LOOKS LIKE, BUT IT ACTUALLY IS A FOLDING OF THE PROTEIN.

HOW IMPORTANT IT HARD WAS THAT?

AND WHAT WILL IT DO FOR US?

>> THE PROTEIN FOLDING PROBLEM IS A 50 YEAR GRAND CHALLENGE IN BIOLOGY, ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES IN BIOLOGY, IT WAS PROPOSED IN THE 1970s BY A NOBEL PRIZE WINNER --NOBEL PRIZE WINNER.

CAN YOU DETERMINE A 3-D STRUCTURE, A PROTEIN.

EVERYTHING IN LIFE DEPENDS ON PROTEINS.

ALL YOUR MUSCLES IN YOUR BODY, ALL OF THE FUNCTIONS IN YOUR BODY ARE GOVERNED AND SUPPORTED BY PROTEINS.

AND WHAT A PROTEIN DOES DEPEND ON ITS 3-D SHAPE, HOW IT STORES IN THE BODY.

AND THE CONDUCTOR WAS, COULD YOU PREDICT THE 3-D SHAPE OF A PROTEIN BASED JUST ON ITS TWO- DIMENSIONAL OR ONE-DIMENSIONAL GENETIC SEQUENCE, RIGHT?

THE STRING OF NUMBERS.

SOMETIMES IT IS CALLED THE AMINO ACID SEQUENCE.

AND CAN YOU PREDICT THE 3-D STRUCTURE, THE PROTEIN, JUST FROM ITS AMINO ACID SEQUENCE?

IF YOU COULD DO THAT, IT WOULD BE REALLY IMPORTANT FOR UNDERSTANDING BIOLOGY, THE PROCESSES IN THE BODY, BUT ALSO DESIGNING THINGS LIKE DRUGS AND CURES FOR DISEASES AND UNDERSTANDING WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG AND HOW TO DESIGN A DRUG TO BIND TO A CERTAIN PART OF THE PROTEIN.

IT IS A REALLY FOUNDATIONAL, FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IN BIOLOGY.

WE MANAGED TO CRACK THAT PROBLEM WITH ALPHA FOLD.

>> THERE ARE SO MANY LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS, ALMOST LIKE A RACETRACK IN WHICH GOOGLE GEMINI, YOURS IS UP THERE AGAINST OPENAI AND AGAINST GRONK FROM X AI.

META HAS ITS OWN, AND ANTHROPIC.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SEEMS TO DISTINGUISH THE LATEST MODEL OF GOOGLE GEMINI IS THAT IT IS MULTIMODAL.

MEANING THAT IT CAN LOOK AT IMAGES, YOU CAN HEAR WORDS, NOT JUST TO DEAL WITH TEXT.

EXPLAIN THAT INTO A ME --TO ME IN A WAY THAT MAKES SENSE.

>> AS YOU SAID, MULTIMODAL, IT MEANS THAT IT DOES NOT JUST DEAL WITH LANGUAGE AND TEXT, BUT ALSO IMAGES, VIDEO PROCESSING, CODE, AUDIO.

SO ALL OF THE DIFFERENT MODALITIES WE AS HUMAN BEINGS USE AND EXIST IN.

AND WE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT WAS CRITICAL FOR THE AI SYSTEMS AND MODELS, TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND.

IF WE WANTED TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD AROUND US AND BUILD MODELS OF THE WORLD AND HOW THE WORLD WORKS AND BE USEFUL TO US AS DIGITAL ASSISTANT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THEY NEED TO REALLY HAVE A GOOD GROUNDING AND UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THE WORLD WORKS.

IN ORDER TO DO THAT, THEY HAVE TO BE MULTIMODAL AND THEY HAVE TO PROCESS ALL THESE DIFFERENT TYPES OF INFORMATION.

NOT JUST TEXT AND LANGUAGE.

WE BUILD GEMINI FROM THE BEGINNING TO BE NATIVELY MULTIMODAL.

THIS WOULD HAVE HAD THAT ABILITY FROM THE START.

WE WERE ENVISIONING THINGS LIKE A DIGITAL ASSISTANT, A UNIVERSAL ASSISTANT THAT CAN UNDERSTAND THE WORLD AROUND YOU AND THEREFORE BE MUCH MORE HELPFUL, BUT ALSO IF YOU THINK ABOUT THINGS LIKE ROBOTICS OR ANYTHING IN THE OPERATING IN THE REAL WORLD, IT NEEDS TO INTERACT WITH AND DEAL WITH REAL WORLD PROBLEMS, THINGS LIKE SPATIAL RELATIONS AND CONTEXT THAT YOU ARE IN.

SO WE THINK IT IS FUNDAMENTAL FOR GENERAL INTELLIGENCE.

>> Reporter: THE BIG NEWS IN THE PAST WEEK OR TWO WAS META, FACEBOOK, COMING OUT WITH LAMA, IT'S FORM OF A COMPETITOR, IN SOME WAYS, TO GOOGLE JENNA MY AND OPENAI'S SYSTEM.

IN MARK ZUCKERBERG, WHEN HE INTRODUCED IT, MADE A BIG DEAL ABOUT IT BEING OPEN SOURCE.

TELL ME WHY THE GOOGLE GEMINI IS NOT OPEN SOURCE AND WHETHER MARK ZUCKERBERG IS RIGHT TO SAY THAT THIS IS IMPORTANT.

>> IT IS DEFINITELY VERY IMPORTANT.

WE ARE HUGE, GOOGLE "DEEPMIND" AND GOOGLE IN GENERAL ARE HUGE SUPPORTERS OF OPEN SOURCE.

WE WERE DISCUSSING ALPHA FOLD EARLIER, THAT IS OPEN SOURCE.

SCIENTISTS MAKE USE OF IT, PRETTY MUCH IN EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, WHERE THEY DO THEIR IMPORTANT RESEARCH WORK.

WE HAVE PUBLISHED THOUSANDS OF PAPERS NOW ON ALL OF THE ARCHITECTURES REQUIRED FOR BUILDING MODERN AI SYSTEMS, INCLUDING MOST FAMOUSLY THE TRANSFORMERS PAPERS.

THE ARCHITECTURE THAT UNDERLINES PRETTY MUCH ALL OF THE MODERN LANGUAGE MODELS AND FOUNDATIONAL MODELS.

WE VERY MUCH BELIEVE THAT IT IS THE FASTEST WAY TO MAKE SCIENTIFIC PROGRESS, TO SHARE INFORMATION.

THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, THAT IS WHY SCIENCE WORKS.

IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WITH AGI SYSTEMS, WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT AS I GET MORE POWERFUL.

NOT TODAY'S MODELS, THAT IS FINE.

BUT AS WE GET CLOSER TO ARTIFICIAL GENERAL INTELLIGENCE, YOU KNOW, WHAT ABOUT THE ISSUES AROUND BAD ACTORS?

WHETHER THAT IS INDIVIDUAL OR UP TO NATIONSTATES, USING THESE THINGS, REPURPOSE AND THESE SAME MODELS, THEY CAN BE USED FOR GOOD, THAT IS WHY I HAVE WORKED ON AI MY WHOLE CAREER, TO CURE DISEASES, MAYBE HELP THINGS LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE, SO ON AND SO FORTH, SCIENCE AND MEDICINE.

HARM IF INCORRECTLY USED BY BAD ACTORS.

THAT IS THE QUESTION THAT I THINK WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO RESOLVE AS A COMMUNITY, AND AS A RESEARCH COMMUNITY, HOW DO WE ENABLE ALL OF THE AMAZING, GOOD USE CASES OF AI AND SHARE INFORMATION AMONGST WELL- MEANING ACTORS, RESEARCHERS, AND SO ON, TO ADVANCE THE FIELD AND COME UP WITH AMAZING NEW APPLICATIONS THAT ARE BENEFITING HUMANITY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, RESTRICT ACCESS TO WOULD BE BAD ACTORS TO DO HARMFUL THINGS WITH THOSE SAME SYSTEMS BY REPURPOSING THEM IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

THAT IS THE CONUNDRUM THAT WE HAVE TO SOLVE SOMEHOW WITH THIS DEBATE ABOUT OPEN SYSTEMS VERSUS CLOSED SYSTEMS.

I DO NOT THINK THERE IS A CLEAR ANSWER YET ABOUT HOW TO DO THAT, AS THESE SYSTEMS IMPROVE.

BUT I CONGRATULATE MARK ZUCKERBERG AND META ON THEIR GREAT NEW MODEL.

I THINK THIS IS USEFUL TO STIMULATE THE DEBATE ON THIS TOPIC.

>> Reporter: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAN MAKE AN AI SYSTEM REALLY GREAT IS THE TRAINING DATA THAT IT CAN USE.

ON GOOGLE, AND YOUTUBE, THIS SHOW WILL BE ON YOUTUBE, OUR SEGMENT, PRETTY SOON.

GOOGLE GEMINI TRAINS ON YOUTUBE UNLESS SOMEBODY STOPS IT.

IT ALSO CAN TRAIN ON MY BOOKS.

IT'S CAN READ ANY BOOK I WROTE.

HOW DO WE REGULATE THAT GOOGLE GEMINI JUST CANNOT TAKE ALL OF THIS DATA AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY WITHOUT SOME DEALS?

>> WE ARE VERY CAREFUL AT GOOGLE TO RESPECT ALL OF THOSE COPYRIGHT ISSUES AND TO ONLY TRAIN ON THE OPEN WEB, WHETHER THAT IS YOUTUBE OR THE WEB IN GENERAL.

AND THEN YOU WILL SEE WE HAVE CONSTANT DEALS AS WELL.

SO THIS IS GOING TO BE AN INTERESTING QUESTION AS WELL FOR THE WHOLE INDUSTRY, THE WHOLE RESEARCH INDUSTRY, HOW TO TACKLE THIS GOING FORWARDS.

WE ALSO HAVE GOOGLE OPT OUT SO WEBSITES CAN OPT OUT OF TRAINING IF THEY WANT TO DO THAT, PEOPLE CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT.

AND THEN IN THE FAIRNESS OF TIME, WE NEED TO DEVELOP SOME NEW TECHNOLOGIES WHERE WE CAN DO ATTRIBUTION OR SOME FORM OF, YOU KNOW, THIS INPUTS, TRAINING INPUTS, IT HELPED IN SOME FACTIONAL WAY, SOME OUTPUTS, AND THEN DERIVED SOME COMMERCIAL VALUE FROM THAT, THAT CAN FLOW BACK TO THE CONTENT CREATORS.

I THINK THAT TECHNOLOGY IS NOT THERE YET, BUT I THINK WE NEED TO DEVELOP THAT.

IT WOULD HAVE A CONTENT I.D.

LIKE YOUTUBE.

YOUTUBE HAS HAD CONTENT I.D.

FOR MANY YEARS, FOR THE CREATOR COMMUNITY TO BENEFIT MASSIVELY FROM THE DISTRIBUTION THAT YOUTUBE GIVES.

I THINK THAT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE THAT WE ARE TRYING TO FOLLOW.

YOU KNOW, WITHIN THE AI SPACE.

YOU KNOW, AS AN EXAMPLE, THE WAY YOUTUBE IS, THE WAY THE USED TUBE SYSTEM IS DEVELOPED.

>> Reporter: IN THE FASCINATING BIOGRAPHY OF YOUR LIFE, SOMETHING ALMOST AS IMPORTANT AS BEING A GAME PLAYER AND GAME DESIGNER, THAT IS THAT YOU HAVE A PHD IN COGNITIVE NEUROSCIENCE.

YOU LOVE THE HUMAN BRAIN.

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE HUMAN BRAIN WORKS IN ORDER TO DO AI?

AND IS IT SOMETHING THAT WILL ALWAYS BE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT BETWEEN THE SILICON BAY SYSTEM AND THE WORLD OF THE HUMAN BRAIN?

>> YOU ARE RIGHT.

I DID MY PHD NEARLY 20 YEARS AGO NOW, IN THE MID-2000'S.

BACK IN THOSE TIMES, THE EARLY TIMES OF "DEEPMIND", IT WAS IMPORTANT TO HAVE INSPIRATION BOTH FROM MACHINE LEARNING AND METH ADDICTS AS WELL AS NEUROSCIENCE AND INSPIRATION FROM THE HUMAN BRAIN, AS TO HOW INTELLIGENCE MIGHT WORK.

IT IS NOT THAT YOU WANT TO SLAVISHLY COPY HOW THE BRAIN WORKS.

AS YOU POINTED OUT, BRAINS ARE CARBON-BASED AND OUR COMPUTERS ARE SILICONE-BASED.

THERE IS NO REASON WHY THE MECHANICS SHOULD WORK IN THE SAME WAY.

IN FACT, THEY WORK RIGHT DIFFERENTLY.

BUT A LOT OF ALGORITHMIC PRINCIPLES, SYSTEMS, AND ARCHITECTURES BEHIND INTELLIGENCE ARE IN COMMON.

INCLUDING IN THE EARLY DAYS OF NEURAL NETWORKS, YOU KNOW, THINGS THAT UNDERPIN ALL MODERN AI WERE ORIGINALLY INSPIRED BY NEUROSCIENCE, AND SYNAPSES IN THE BRAIN.

SO THE LIMITATION DETAILS ARE DIFFERENT, BUT THE ALGORITHMIC IDEAS ARE EXTREMELY VALUABLE IN TERMS OF KICKSTARTING WHAT WE SEE AS THE MODERN AI REVOLUTION TODAY.

INCLUDING THIS IDEA OF LEARNING SYSTEMS, REINFORCEMENT LEARNING, AND SYSTEMS THAT LEARN FOR THEMSELVES, VERY MUCH LIKE BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS, AS OUR OWN BRAINS DO.

MAYBE WHEN WE BUILD AGI, WE CAN USE THAT TO ANALYZE OUR OWN MIND SO THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND THE NEUROSCIENCE BETTER AND FINALLY UNDERSTAND THE WORKINGS OF OUR OWN BRAIN.

I LOVE THE WHOLE CIRCLE HERE, THIS CIRCLE OF INFLUENCING EACH OTHER.

>> HERE IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE SAID.

MITIGATING THE RISK OF EXTINCTION FROM AI SHOULD BE A GLOBAL PRIORITY.

WHAT ARE >> LOOK, I THINK THAT WAS AN OPEN LETTER THAT I AND MANY OTHERS SIGNED.

IT WAS IMPORTANT TO PUT THAT IN THE OVERTON WINDOW OF THINGS THAT NEEDED TO BE DISCUSSED.

I THINK NOBODY KNOWS THE TIMESCALES OF THAT YET OR THE WORRIES OF THAT.

I THINK THE CURRENT SYSTEMS ARE STILL QUITE FAR FROM ARTIFICIAL NEURAL INTELLIGENCE.

ALSO, WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE RISK LEVELS ARE OF THAT.

MAYBE THEY WILL TIME OUT TO BE VERY SIMPLE, TO NAVIGATE CONTROLLED ABILITY OF THESE SYSTEMS.

HOW DO WE OUTPUT THEM AND MAKE SURE THAT WHEN WE SET THEM GOALS, YOU KNOW, THESE MORE AGENT-BASED SYSTEMS, THAT THEY DO NOT DO SOMETHING ELSE ON THE SIDE THAT WE DID NOT INTEND REX UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES.

THERE ARE MANY SCIENCE FICTION BOOKS WRITTEN ABOUT THAT.

SO HE WANTS TO AVOID ALL OF THOSE THINGS, SO WE USE OUR SYSTEMS FOR GOOD AND FOR AMAZING THINGS.

SOLVING DISEASES, HELPING WITH CLIMATE, INVENTING NEW MATERIALS.

ALL OF THESE AMAZING THINGS THAT WILL COME ABOUT IN THE NEXT DECADE OR SO.

BUT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THESE SYSTEMS BETTER.

OVER THAT TIME, WE ALSO WILL UNDERSTAND THE RISKS INVOLVED ABOUT RUNAWAY SYSTEMS DOING UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES, OR BAD ACTORS USING THESE SYSTEMS IN NEFARIOUS WAYS.

YOU KNOW, THAT MIGHT END UP BEING A LOW PROBABILITY LIKELIHOOD.

BUT, RIGHT NOW THERE IS A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY OVER IT.

SO AS A SCIENTIST, YOU KNOW, THE WAY I DEAL WITH THAT, THE ONLY RESPONSIBLE APPROACH TO THAT IS TO APPROACH IT WITH CAUTIOUS OPTIMISM.

I AM VERY OPTIMISTIC THAT HUMAN INGENUITY COLLECTIVELY WILL WORK THIS OUT, I AM VERY CONFIDENT OF THAT.

OTHERWISE I WOULD NOT HAVE STARTED THIS WHOLE JOURNEY 30 YEARS AGO FOR MYSELF.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IT IS NOT A GIVEN.

NEED TO DO RESEARCH ON AND FOCUS ON TO UNDERSTAND.

THINGS LIKE ANALYSIS OF THESE SYSTEMS SO THAT THEY ARE NOT JUST A BLACK BOX SYSTEMS, THAT WE UNDERSTAND, WE CAN CONTROL.

WE LOOK AT HOW KNOWLEDGE IS REPRESENTED IN THESE SYSTEMS, AND THEN WE WILL BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE RISKS AND PROBABILITY OF THOSE RISKS AND THEN MITIGATE AGAINST THOSE.

IT REALLY IS A CALL TO ACTION TO PAY MORE ATTENTION TO THAT, AS WELL AS ALL THE EXCITING COMMERCIAL POTENTIAL THAT EVERYONE ELSE IS WRAPPED UP IN WHAT WE SHOULD THINK AT THE SAME TIME OF THE RISKS BUT STILL HE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THAT.

BUT APPROACH IT WITH THE RESPECT THAT IT DESERVES FOR SUCH AN INFORMATIVE TECHNOLOGY OF THAT AI IS.

>> Reporter: DEMIS HASSABIS, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THINK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> WE TAKE A LOOK BACK AT THE MOMENT WHEN AN AMERICAN AUTHOR AND CINEMATOGRAPHY ANNEX.

ALL THE CINEMATIC GIFTS OF CINEMATOGRAPHER BARRY JENKINS, TELLING THE LOVE STORY OF DEVOTED COUPLE PATRICIA AND FUNNY DERAILED BY A FALSE RAPE ACCUSATION.

WE REVISIT CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR' S INTERVIEW AND WHY MORE REPRESENTATION IS NEEDED IN THE INDUSTRY.

>> MR. BALDWIN HAD QUITE A FEW VOICES HE WROTE IN.

TWO OF THOSE VOICES IN PARTICULAR ALWAYS STOOD OUT TO ME.

THE ONE VOICE THAT WAS OBSESSED WITH ROMANCE, ROMANTICISM, INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS, AND THE OTHER VOICE IT WAS JUST AS OBSESSED AND PASSIONATE ABOUT POINTING OUT SYSTEMIC INJUSTICE.

IN THIS BOOK, "IF BEALE STREET COULD TALK," THOSE VOICES WERE PERFECT REFUSED.

>> THEY REALLY ARE PERFECT REFUSED.

TRICIA IS THE YOUNG GIRL, 19, FUNNY IS HER BOYFRIEND.

THEY HAVE KNOWN EACH OTHER SINCE THEY WERE LITTLE AND THEY GREW UP INTO THESE REALLY DEEP, SWEET, AND WONDERFUL LOVE.

AND THEN HE GETS FRAMED FOR A RAPE THAT HE DID NOT DO, HIS FAMILY IS TRYING TO GET HIM OUT OF JAIL FOR IT.

BUT HERE IS THIS MOMENT.

WE WANT TO PLAY A CLIP OF TRISH'S FAMILY TELLING FONNY'S FAMILY THAT SHE IS PREGNANT.

>> A CHILD IS COMING.

A GRANDCHILD.

>> I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOU.

>> IT IS YOUR GRANDCHILD.

>> WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE HOW HE GETS HERE?

THE CHILD AIN'T GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT?

AIN'T NONE OF US GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

>> THAT CHILD, THAT CHILD.

THAT CHILD.

THAT CHILD.

THAT CHILD.

>> AT YOUR --.

TAKE YOUR -- WITH YOU.

>> IT IS SUCH A REMARKABLE SCENE AND TO SUCH A REMARKABLE EVENT FOR A FAMILY.

TO STICK UP SO DRAMATICALLY FOR THEIR UNWED, PREGNANT DAUGHTER.

AND TO KICK THE OTHER ONE OUT OF THE HOUSE.

TELL ME WHAT YOU WERE SAYING ABOUT THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN FAMILY IN THAT SCENE.

>> YOU KNOW, FOR ONE, TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE SOURCE MATERIAL, SO MR. BALDWIN BRINGS THESE TWO FAMILIES TOGETHER IN THE NOVEL.

AND I FELT LIKE THE SCENE WAS SO FAT POWERFUL.

ON THE PAGE, IT WOULD BE JUST AS POWERFUL ON-SCREEN.

FOR ME, IT WAS A FEW DIFFERENT THINGS.

ONE IN PARTICULAR IS THAT WE HAVE A LAKH ADULTS SITTING IN A LIVING ROOM CONFRONTED WITH THE SAME SITUATION.

WE ASSUME THAT PEOPLE ARE MONOLITH, THEY THINK THE SAME WAY RESPOND TO THE SAME STIMULUS IN THE SAME WAY.

BUT IN THESE SEGMENTS, WE SEE THESE TWO FAMILIES IN THE SAME PLACE AND TIME TAKE VERY DEAL WITH THE SITUATION ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

FOR ME AS A DIRECT, YOU KNOW, I LOVE GETTING INTO THE NUANCE OF INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS.

AND I THINK REGINA KING IN THAT CLIP, JUST SUCH A GREAT JOB AS BLACK MOTHERS RESPONDING IN VERY DIFFERENT WAYS.

BUT IT HAS TWO STATES AS MUCH ABOUT THEM AS PEOPLE AS THE SITUATION IN FRONT OF THEM.

>> REGINA KING, WE DID POINT OUT, DID WIN A GOLDEN GLOBE AS BEST SUPPORTING ACTRESS IN THAT DRAMA.

REMARKABLE, HER SPEECH WAS REMARKABLE TOO.

SHE SAYS IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS, EVERYTHING I PRODUCE, I MAKE A VOW THAT IT WILL BE TOUGH, TO MAKE SURE EVERYTHING I PRODUCE IS 50% WOMEN.

I JUST CHALLENGE ANYONE OUT THERE IN A POSITION OF POWER TO DO THE SAME.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, TAKING ON THE WHOLE ISSUE OF WOMEN IN FILM TODAY.

OBVIOUSLY IN THE POST ME TO ENVIRONMENT AS WELL, IS THAT SOMETHING YOU WOULD TAKE UP?

>> MY COMPANY AGREES WITH REGINA'S MANDATE.

WHEN WE MAKE A PATH TO THE AUDIENCE, YOU KNOW, THEY MAKE A PET THE POPULATION.

AT THE SUNDANCE FILM FESTIVAL THIS YEAR, THEY WILL MAKE A PATH FOR DIRECTORS AND COMPETITION.

YET THEY SOMEHOW ONLY MAKE UP 4% OF STUDIO DIRECTORS.

SO HOW DO WE GET THE 4% TO 8% TO 12%?

THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO WIN THE DIRECTING PRIZE AT THE SUNDANCE FILM FESTIVAL, SHE STARTED A SHOW ON OW AND CALLED "QUEEN SUGAR.

SHE MADE A MANDATE THAT EVERY DIRECTOR ON THE SERIES WOULD BE A WOMAN.

THE WOMEN HAVE NOW GONE ON TO DIRECT EPISODES OF OTHER TELEVISION SHOWS AND CREATE THEIR OWN TELEVISION SHOWS.

THEY HAVE THE APTITUDE AND TALENT, BUT THEY DID NOT HAVE THE EXCESS.

I THINK REGINA'S MANDATE WAS ABOUT CREATING ACCESS.

>> Reporter: FRANCES McDORMAND YOU'RE GETTING A LOT OF SUPPORT FROM A LOT OF CORNERS.

I WONDER WHEN YOU THINK THIS EXPLOSION IN DIVERSITY IS REAL AND HERE TO STAY, YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED AVA DO VERNET, A WRINKLE IN TIME, SPIKE LEE, OF COURSE, STEVE McQUEEN'S WIDOWS, SORRY TO BOTHER YOU, BLACK PANTHER, ALL OF THESE FILMS MAKING SO MANY WAVES OVER THE LAST YEAR OR SO.

>> YES.

I THINK IT TAKES A MULTIPRONGED APPROACH.

WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THINGS OVER THE DURATION OF TIME.

WE HAVE HAD THESE MOMENTS OF DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION THAT HAVE HOPPED UP OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST FEW DECADES.

BUT THEY ARE REDUCED TO TWO MOMENTS.

IT IS NOT AN ACTUAL PROCESS.

I THINK RIGHT NOW WE ARE TRYING TO BUILD A PROCESS.

THE SHOW QUEEN SUGAR IS NOW IN ITS THIRD SEASON.

THAT IS ABOUT 30 EPISODES OF TELEVISION DIRECTED BY WOMEN WHEN WOMEN ARE 10%, I WANT TO SAY, OF TELEVISION DIRECTORS.

I THINK BY CREATING A FERTILE TYPICALLY HAVE BEEN EXCLUDED FROM THE PROCESS CAN BE INCLUDED TO PROVE THAT THEY CAN DO THE SAME WORK AS THEIR COUNTERPARTS, I THINK THAT IS THE WAY WE HAVE A CONTINUAL PROGRESS THAT BECOMES A DIRECTION, NOT NECESSARILY A DESTINATION.

>> YOU HAVE TALKED A LOT ABOUT WOMEN, BUT YOU ALSO TAKE ON BLACK, OR RATHER, MALE MASCULINITY.

WELL, LIKE MALE MASCULINITY.

YOU DID IT IN "MOONLIGHT", A YOUNG GAY MAN GROWING UP.

AND AGAIN HERE, "IF BEALE STREET COULD TALK," YOU KNOW, THE QUINTESSENTIAL LOVE AND GOODNESS THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT THE MALE CHARACTER, FONNY, DISPLAYED, EVEN AS HE WAS BEING RAILROADED, CLAIMED --FRAMED FOR A CRIME HE DID NOT COMMIT, THESE ARE SPECIAL PORTRAYALS.

>> YES.

I JUST HAPPENED TO HAVE THE HONOR OF ADAPTING, YOU KNOW, REALLY AMAZING WRITERS.

MacARTHUR GENIUS AND JAMES BALDWIN, A GENIUS, PERIOD.

IN A WAY, I AM CHEATING.

I THINK BETWEEN MYSELF AND THE ACTORS, WE ARE LOOKING TO BASICALLY REFLECT THE WORLD THAT WE SEE.

YOU KNOW, BLACK MEN HAVE INNOCENCE AND GOODNESS IN THEIR HEARTS.

BUT WE RARELY SEE THAT INNOCENCE AND TENDERNESS RENDERED IN MASS MEDIA.

SO I THINK FOR US WHEN WE MAKE THESE FILMS, IT IS ABOUT REFLECTING THE CHARACTERS WE SEE IN OUR EVERYDAY LIVES.

BRIAN HENRY AND STEFAN JAMES, A VERY WARM AND AMAZING YOUNG MAN, THEY BRING PART OF THEMSELVES TO THESE ROLES.

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

PART OF WHAT I LOVE ABOUT THIS JOB IS GETTING THE OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW ALL THE MULTITUDE OF BLACKNESS.

WORKING ON THIS BOOK BY JAMES BALDWIN, WE CAN SPEAK TO THE LIGHT IN THE DARKNESS OF THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT OF THE BLACK EXPERIENCE.

>> Reporter: ON A LARGER LEVEL, IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO BUILD?

THIS ENGAGEMENT THIS ENGAGEMENT BETWEEN DIFFERENT AREAS OF, NOT TO MENTION, THE ENDURING RACISM?

>> IT WAS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I GRAVITATED TOWARDS THIS BOOK.

IF I WERE TO GO TO A DESERT ISLAND, I WOULD NOT TAKE ANY FILMS I MADE WITH ME BECAUSE IT IS NOT ABOUT ME.

I THINK THE FILM IS MEANT TO BE SHARED.

BUT I ALSO FEEL, IN THIS NOVEL, MR. BALDWIN IS UNPACKING SO MANY THINGS THAT HE IS IMPLICATING ALL OF US IN A CERTAIN WAY.

FONNY IS FALSELY ACCUSED OF A CRIME HE DID NOT EMIT, BUT HE IS PLACED IN A LEASE LINEUP BY AN OFFICER WHO HAS DECIDED TO MANIPULATE THE SYSTEM.

BECAUSE OF THAT, THE ACTUAL VICTIM IN THE STORY HAS BEEN DISENFRANCHISED ANY TRUTH OR JUSTICE IS NOT WHAT IS WHAT THE SYSTEM IS TRYING TO ARRIVE AT.

I THINK THAT WAY, MR. BALDWIN WENT TO SO MANY OF THESE THINGS.

WHEN YOU MAKE THE FILM, YOU KNOW, I HOPE WE CAN RAISE A MIRROR TO SHOW THAT THE SYSTEMS WE HAVE CHOSEN TO ENGAGE IN, WHETHER IT IS ELECTIONS OR THROUGH THE WAY WE VOTE, ALL OF THESE THINGS, IN A CERTAIN WAY, YOU KNOW, IF THEY ARE NOT SERVING US, WHO ARE THEY SERVING?

ULTIMATELY, I THINK WE ARE ALL BEING DISENFRANCHISED ON SOME LEVEL.

>> AN INSPIRING SUMMARIZATION WITH BARRY JENKINS THERE.

COMING UP NEXT WEEK, A BROADWAY HIT FOR THE TIK-TOK GENERATION.

THE NEW PLAY TACKLES SOCIAL MEDIA TOXICITY HAD ON AS ITS MAIN CHARACTER, JANE, AND AM IN CONSTANT MODERATOR, SUFFERS A BREAKDOWN AND WORKS THROUGH IT WITH A THERAPIST.

LOTS OF TWISTS IN THIS ONE.

TUNE IN FOR MY INTERVIEW WITH PLAYWRIGHT MAX WOLF FREE LOOK AND ACTORS PETER FRIEDLAND AND CINDY, WHO TALK ABOUT DELVING INTO THE DARKEST RECESSES OF THE INTERNET EACH NIGHT ON BROADWAY.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR A PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORGéAMANPOUR.

WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK.