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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
> I AM PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND THE BUCK STOPS WITH ME.
BIDEN PUTS THE BLAME SQUARELY ON DESPERATE AFGHANS.
I ASK MARK ESPER WHETHER THERE WAS A WAY TO AVOID AMERICA'S HUMILIATING WITHDRAWAL.
THEN SHE WAS ALMOST KILLED BY THE TALIBAN.
NOW SHE FEARS FOR AFGHAN WOMEN AND GIRLS.
ALSO AHEAD --
WE WANT MORE GIRLS AND WOMEN TO BE IN DECISION-MAKING POSITIONS.
BILLY JEAN KING JOINS ME WITH HER NEW MEM WARE 'ALL IN,' ABOUT HER LIFE FIGHT FOR EQUALITY ON AND OFF THE COURT.
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EVERYONE.ME TO THE PROGRAM I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
THE TALIBAN LAID ON THE CHARM OFFENSIVE TODAY JUST TWO DAYSAFF CONFERENCE IN THE CAPITAL KABUL WHERE THEY CONGRATULATED THEMSELVES AND THE NATION FOR WHAT THEY CALLED THEIR VICTORY.Y WON'T HOLD GRUDGES.
Translator: WE DON'T WANT AFGHANISTAN TO BE A BATTLEFIELD.
TODAY, THE FIGHTING IS OVER.
WHOEVER WAS AGAINST THE OPPOSITION HAS BEEN GIVEN BLANKET AMNESTY.
THE FIGHTING SHOULD NOT BE REPEATED.
BUT MANY DESPERATE AFGHANS SIMPLY AREN'T BUYING THAT.
JUST TAKE A LOOK AT THIS PHOTO OF SOME 640 CIVILIANS CLAMMED INTO A U.S. CARGO PLANE WHICH THEN TRANSPLANTED THEM FROM AFGHANISTAN TO QATAR.
NATO LEADER JENS STOLTENBERG HAS ANNOUNCED THAT IT WILL BE STOPPING SUPPORT FOR THE NATION.
AND HE ALSO PINNED THE BLAME FOR THIS TURN OF EVENTS ON THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.
ULTIMATELY THE AFGHAN LEADERSHIP FAILED TO STAND UP TO THE TALIBAN AND ACHIEVE THE PEACEFUL SOLUTION THAT AFGHANS DESPERATELY WANTED.
THIS FAILURE OF AFGHAN LEADERSHIP LED TO THE TRAGEDY W.
AT THE SAME TIME, WE NEED TO HAVE AN HONEST, CLEAR-EYED ASSESSMENT OF NATO'S OWN ENGAGEMENT IN AFGHANISTAN.
DESPITE OUR CONSIDERABLE INVESTMENT IN AND SACRIFICE OVER TWO DECADES, THE COLLAPSE WAS SWIFT AND SUDDEN.
STORY?THAT IN FACT THE WHOLE AND HOW WILL PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN'S ROLE BE JUDGED?
IN HIS SPEECH TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OVERNIGHT, HE SHOWED NO SECOND THOUGHTS ABOUT HIS DECISION DESPITE THE TALIBAN TAKEOVER.
AND ALLIES IN THE UK AND EUROPE ARE NOW ASKING THEMSELVES WHETHER THIS MIGHT IN FACT BE BIDEN'S 'AMERICA FIRST' MOMENT.
JOINING ME NOW IN AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW IS THE FORMER U.S.
DEFENSE SECRETARY MARK ESPER, HD TRUMP.
MARK ESPER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
SO MUCH TO ASK YOU ABOUT BUT LET ME START WITH THE OBVIOUS.
RESPONSE TO JOE BIDEN AND PERHAPS STOTENBERG AS WELL.
WAS THERE A CHOICE BETWEEN WHAT BIDEN CLAIMED WOULD BE AN OUT LONGER THAN TRUMP PROMISED WITH?
OR WHAT ACTUALLY JUST HAPPENED.
WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE COULD HAVE MITIGATED A TOTAL TAKEOVER BY THE TALIBAN?
CHRISTIANE.ST OF ALL, HELLO GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN AND PLEASURE TO BE HERE ON THE SHOW.
LET ME SAY YES OF COURSE THERE WERE MORE OPTIONS THAN THE TWO BINARY CHOICES PRESENTED BY THE PRESIDENT.
JUST BETTER PLANNING AND EXTENDING THE TIME LINE AND TAKING A MORE THOUGHTFUL APPROACH AND NOT RELYING ON SIMPLE ASSUMPTIONS WOULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS SEEING UNFOLDING BEHIND US RIGHT IT IS A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS THAT WEEKS.IN THE COMING DAYS AND
LET ME ASK YOU A VERY POINTED QUESTION.
AGAIN, PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION IS PUTTING THE BLAME SQUARELY ON THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT, NOW FALLEN.
AND THE AFGHAN FORCES, WHICH YOU HAVE SPENT IN TERMS OF THE UNITED STATES 20 YEARS TRYING TO STEP UP.
WILL.ALLY SAYING THEY HAD NO IT WAS THEIR FAULT.
WE CAN'T FIGHT AND WIN FOR THEM IF THEY ARE NOT GOING FIGHT.
OTHERs HAVE POINTED OUT THAT THE AFGHAN FORCES HAVE FOUGHT AND THAT JUST IN THE LAST FEW YEARSF 45,000 PEOPLE.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT WAS ENTIRELY THE FAULT OF THE AFGHAN FORCES AND GOVERNMENT?
NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT CHRISTIANE.
LOOK, CLEARLY THE AFGHAN PEOPLE LEADERSHIP THAN WHAT THEY HAVE HAD OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS.
AND WE SAW THE AFGHAN SOLDIERS, MANY OF WHOM FIGHT BRAVELY ON THE BATTLEFIELD WITH THE UNITED STATES AND ALLIED SUPPORT BUT TO PUT THIS ALL ON THEM IS JUST SHIFTING THE BLAME.
THE FACT IS PRESIDENT BIDEN OWN.
HE OWNS THE MESS, THE CATASTROPHE THAT'S BEEN CREATED THE PAST SEVERAL WEEKS, COUPLE WEEKS AND.
AND REALLY AT THIS POINT WE HAV.
WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE AIRFIELD IS SECURE WHICH I UNDERSTAND IT IS.
WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT HOW DO WE GO OUT AND IDENTIFY AND LOCATE AND BRING BACK OUR AFGHAN PARTNERS, THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND OTHER GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES.
HOW DO WE BRING BACK OUR AFGHAN PARTNERS, MANY WHO RISKED THEIR LIVES OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES TO HELP TH.
SO THE PRESIDENT COULD CUT THROUGH THIS PAPERWORK, BRING THESE FOLKS OUT OF THE COUNTRY AND TAKE THEM TO ANOTHER THIRDC, WHEREVER.
BUT WE NEED THE TAKE CARE OF THEM AND THEN THINK ABOUT HOW TO ORGANIZE AN INTERNATIONAL EFFORT TO REALLY PUT THE PRESSURE ON THE TALIBAN TO MITIGATE THIS EMERGING HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.
AND FINALLY, I WOULD BE REMISS IF I DIDN'T SAY WE REALLY NEED TO COBBLE BACK TOGETHER OUR BEST INTELLIGENCE ASSETS AND RESOURCES TO MAKE SURE WE KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE GROUND IN AFGHANISTAN SO IT DOESN'T ONCE AGAIN BECOME A SAFE HAVEN FOR TERRORISTS TO ATTACK AFTER ALL,THAT'S THE REASON WE E IN THE FIRST PLACE IN 2001.
SO LET ME TAKE A FEW OF THOSE POINTS.GHAN SPOKESPEOPLE, THEIR LEADERSHIP, THEY HAVE HAD VERY PUBLIC PRESS CONFERENCES.
THEY ARE CLEARLY TRYING TO REACR PROMISES AND THEIR SEEKING INTERNATIONAL LEGITIMACY.
SO TO YOUR POINTS, THEY HAVE PLEDGED AMNESTY TO NOT ONLY FORMER AFGHAN FORCES BUT ALL OF THOSE CIVILIANS WHO ARE PICTURES, TO GET OUT.SEEN THE THEY HAVE ALSO PLEDGED NOT TO ALLOW AFGHANISTAN TO BE A TERRORIST SAFE HAVEN AGAIN AS IT CHARGE.N THEY WERE LAST IN DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?
I DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING THE TALIBAN SAYS.
NEED TO DO OUR BEST TO VERIFYE EVERYTHING THEY ARE DOING.
LOOK, IT'S CLEAR BECAUSE SOME OF CNN FOLKS HAVE DONE SOME REALLY GOOD REPORTING FROM THE STREETS OF KABUL.
IN THE CITY AND PROVINCES PEOPLE ARE SCARED, THEY ARE INTIMIDATED.
WE HEAR ISOLATED EXAMPLES OF BRUTALITY BY THE TALIBAN AND WE NEED TO SEE HOW THAT DEVELOPS,BT WAIT.
WE NEED TO ORGANIZE AGAIN AN INTERNATIONAL EFFORT TO COMPEL, TO URGE THE TALIBAN TO OBEY, YOU KNOW, BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS AND FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES AND HOLD THEM TO WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.
AND VERIFY THAT THEY WILL INDEE.
SECRETARY ESPER, I NEED TO ASK YOU OF COURSE THE 10,000 MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION AND THAT IS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT WHO YOU SERVED UNDER, DONALD TRUMP.
BECAUSE THIS ALL BEGAN WITH DONALD TRUMP WANTING TO PUT -- CHRISTMAS..S. FORCES OUT BY AND THE WHOLE DOHA PROCESS.
IN YOUR TWEETS SINCE THE TALIBAN TAKEOVER, YOU HAVE SAID THAT IT.
PRECIPITOUS WITHDRAWAL OF U.S.
FORCES RATHER THAN LEVERAGING, THAT MILITARY MUSCLE TO COMPEL TALIBAN COMPLIANCE WITH THE 2020 PEACE AGREEMENT, BOTH PRESIDENTS HASTENED THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT'S COLLAPSE. YET OUTCOME WAS NOT INEVITABLE WHICH IS WHY AS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE I I RECOMMENDED WE SUSPENDED OUR DEPARTURE UNTIL THE TALIBAN STARTED MEETING THEIR SIDE OFTH.
SO AGAIN, THIS WAS STARTED UNDER YOUR ADMINISTRATION, THE PRESIDENT YOU SERVE.
CAN YOU TAKE US INTO THE CONVERSATIONS THAT WERE UNDERWAY THAT EVEN IMAGINED THAT -- THAT THIS WOULD -- WOULD RESULT IN SEEN TODAY.HER THAN WHAT WE'VE WERE A SERIES OF UNITED STATES WITH PRESIDENT OBAMA WHO WANTED TO SEE AMERICA WITHDRAW FROM AFGHANISTAN.
AND I THINK END OF THE DAY THATE AND REMAINS TO BE THE CASE, AND SECOND, JUST BECAUSE NEGOTIATIONS BEGAN UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DOES NOT IGNORE THE FACT THAT AGAIN PRESIDENT BIDEN OWNS THE SITUATION, THE IMPLEMENTATION OF HIS WITHDRAW WE NOW SEE UP FOLDING BEFORE US.
BUT THAT SAID THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SIGNED AN AGREEMENT WITH THE TALIBAN IN FEBRUARY OF 2020.
IT WAS A POLITICAL AGREEMENT.
IT WAS BASED ON A PREMISE THAT I, MANY OTHERS INSIDE AND OUTSIDE THE GOVERNMENT SHARED.
AND THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY FORWARD WAS GOING TO BE A POLITICAL AGREEMENT.
NOT A MILITARY SOLUTION IMPOSED BY THE UNITED STATES AND THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT BUT A POLITICAL SOLUTION.
AND THE TALIBAN SIGNED UP TO THAT.
WE AGREED TO MAKE REDUCTIONS IN.
AT THE SAME TIME THEY COMMITTED TO NOT ALLOW, AS YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, AFGHANISTAN TO BECOME A SAFE HAVEN FOR TERRORISTS TO ATTACK THE UNITED STATES.
THEY MADE SOME OTHER COMMITMENTS AS WELL.
AND I WAS VERY CLEAR AT THE TIME THAT THIS AGREEMENT HAD TO BE CONDITIONS BASED.
IN OTHER WORDS BOTH SIDES NEED TO MEET THEIR ENDS OF THE AGREEMENT.
NOW THE GOOD NEWS FOR THE UNITED PLANNING REDUCTIONS ANYWAY.
AT THE TIME WE WERE ABOVE 13,000 TROOPS.
WE PLANNED TO GO DOWN BY $3600 OR SO BY THE SUMMER.
WITH THOSE CAVEATS AND CONDITIONS IN MIND, WE PROCEEDED.
I THOUGHT DESPITE IT NOT BEING A PERFECT DEAL OR A GREAT DEAL, I.
AND WE ACTUALLY HAD AFGHANS ONE ANOTHER. SUMMER TALKING TO WHICH I THOUGHT WAS AN ACHIEVEMENT.
MY CONCERN WAS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP, BY CONTINUING TO WANT TO WITHDRAW AMERICAN FORCES OUT OF AFGHANISTAN UNDERMINED THE AGREEMENT, WHICH IS WHY IN THE FALL WHEN HE WAS CALLING FOR A RETURN OF U.S. FORCES BY CHRISTMAS, I OBJECTED AND FORMALLY WROTE A LETTER TO HIM, A MEMO BASED ON RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE MILITARY CHAIN OF COMMAND AND MY SENIOR CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP THAT WE NOT GO FURTHER, THAT WE NOT RELEASE BELOW 4500 TROOPS UNLESS AND UNTIL CONDITIONS WERE MET BY THE TALIBAN.
OTHERWISE WE WOULD SEE A NUMBER WAYS.DING RIGHT NOW IN MANYRE WEEKS OR A WEEK OR SO BEFORE I LEFT OFFICE.
BUT THAT'S THE STATE OF PLAY.
NOW, THAT SAID, PRESIDENT BIDEN NECESSARILY BOUND TO CONTINUE TO TRUMP PLAN.
HE WAS NOT NECESSARILY BOUND TO IMPLEMENT THE POLITICAL AGREEMENT.
HE COULD HAVE TAKEN AS HE DID A PATH.ETELY -- OR A DIFFERENT HE COULD HAVE TRIED TO GO BACK TO THE TABLE WITH THE TALIBAN AND RENEGOTIATE.
HE COULD HAVE DEMANDED, AS I ARGUED, THAT THEY AGREE TO THE CONDITIONS THEY ESTABLISHED OR THEY AGREED TO IN THE AGREEMENT AND THAT WE USE MILITARY POWER TO COMPEL THEM TO DO THAT.
SO THAT GETS BACK TO YOUR FIRST QUESTION.
I THINK THERE WERE MORE OPTIONSY CONTINUING THE WITHDRAWAL OF U.S. FORCES AND DOING IT IN SUCH A PRECIPITOUS AND AND POORLY PLANNED WAY THAT WE NOW SEE THIS CRISIS RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES.
I'M GOING TO GET FURTHER DOWN INTO THE MILITARY MISCALCULATIONS IN A BIT BUT FIRST I WANT TO CONTINUE TO ASK YOU ABOUTE PRESIDENT THAT YOU S.
DO YOU BELIEVE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD A FULL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT ACTUALLY ALL THIS MEANT IN THE FIELD THAT HE, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW THAT THE PEACE NEGOTIATIONS AND YOU HAVE JUST SAID IT WERE WITH THE TALIBAN CUT OUT THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT FOR THE FIRST PART AND BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, JUST WITH THE TALIBAN UNDERMINING THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.
YOU ALSO, YOU KNOW -- WELL, DO UNDERSTANDING OF ACTUALLY WHATW?
AND DO YOU THINK, OR DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THERE WERE ANY ELECTION CONSIDERATION IN TERMS OF HIS DESIRE TO PULL U.S. FORCES OUT EVEN MORE RAPIDLY?
LOOK I'LL JUST SPEAK FOR MYSELF.
AND DOD.
AND I WILL TELL YOU WE WERE VERY CLEAR-EYED ABOUT WHAT WE COULD DO, ABOUT THE CREDIBILITY OF THE AGREEMENT, ABOUT OUR TRUST IN IT, AND ABOUT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN OR NOT HAPPEN AS WE LOOKED AHEAD.
SO I THINK WE HAD A VERY SOBER ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION.
WE, AGAIN, I WAS CONVINCED THAT A CONDITIONS-BASED PROCESS WAS THE WAY FORWARD.
AND ALSO BELIEVED AT THE SAME TIME THAT A POLITICAL SOLUTION WAS ONLY WAY AHEAD.
WHICH IS WHY I SUPPORTED THE AND I THINK MY COUNTERPART,. SECRETARY OF STATE POMPEO SHARED MANY OF THE SAME VIEWS.
SO I THINK WE WERE VERY CLEAR EYED ABOUT THE PROCESS AND ALSO ABOUT THE WAY GOING FORWARD AND WHAT IT WOULD MEAN FOR THE UNITED STATES, OUR SECURITY AND THE AFGHAN PEOPLE.
AGAIN, I GO BACK TO AT THE BEGINNING OF THE DAY, THE REASON WHY WE WENT INTO AFGHANISTAN WAS TO -- WAS TO REMOVE AL QAEDA AND ENSURE THAT COUNTRY NO LONGER BECAME A SAFE HAVEN FOR TERRORISTS TO ATTACK THE UNITED STATES.
AND WE GOT TO PUT -- GIVE GREAT THANKS TO OUR AMERICAN SERVICE MEMBERS, OUR DIPLOMATS AND GOVERNMENT AND OUR ALLIES BY THE WAY WHO FOR 20 YEARS PROTECTED OUR COUNTRY.
THEY BROUGHT BIN LADEN TO JUSTICE AND THEY MADE SURE THAT TERRORISTS DID NOT HAVE A SAFE HAVEN IN THAT COUNTRY.
AND SINCE YOU HAVEN'T TALKED MUCH ABOUT WHAT YOU EUPHEMISTICALLY CALLED LEAVING THE ADMINISTRATION, PRESIDENT.N FACT FIRED BY THE AND I GUESS I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE AT THE TIME YOU SAID SOMETHING LIKE, YOU KNOW, GODFOE 'YES PERSON' MIGHT DO.
DID THE PRESIDENT EVER ASK YOU TO DO ANYTHING OR MAKE ANY DECISION OR TAKE ANY ACTION THAT YOU CONSIDERED DANGEROUS, RECKLESS OR POSSIBLY EVEN ILLEGAL CONCERNING THE MILITARY?
WELL, LOOK, CHRISTIANE, I WOULD NEVER DO ANYTHING THAT IS ILLEGAL, IMMORAL, UNETHICAL AND INAPPROPRIATE AS WELL.
AS BEST I COULD DETERMINE EACH OF THOSE TO BE.
AND I NEVER DID.
I LEFT THE ADMINISTRATION WITH MY HEAD HELD HIGH.
I WAS PROUD TO SERVE MY COUNTRY ONCE AGAIN.
AND I THINK WE AT DOD DID EVERYTHING WE COULD TO ADVANCE AMERICA'S SECURITY ABROAD AND MADE GOOD PROGRESS ON THAT.
IN WILL BE FUTURE TIMES TO TALK ABOUT DEEPER ISSUES AND I'LL PROMISE TO COME BACK ON YOUR SHOW AT SOME POINT AND DO THAT.
BUT LIKE I SAID, I'M VERY PROUD OF DODD AND WHAT WE DID ON MY TENURE AND THOUGHT WE DID A LOT OF IMPORTANT THINGS TO KEEP AMERICA SAFE AND TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY, AND TO LIVE UP TO OUR OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION IN THE PROCESS.
SO I'LL JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT.
ALL RIGHT. JUST A QUICK PREVIEW BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU WIL.
YOU SAID YOU NEVER WOULD DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL OR INAPPROPRIATE.
I OBVIOUSLY BELIEVE YOU.
STORY, YES OR NO.ERIOD, END OF WERE YOU ASKED TO DO ANYTHING INAPPROPRIATE?
I WAS NEVER ASKED TO DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL OR WHAT I CONSIDERED IMMORAL.
SO AGAIN, WE'LL HAVE ANOTHER TIME, ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY TO DIG INTO THESE ISSUE, CHRISTIANE.
OKAY.
THE U.S. MILITARY.SK YOU ABOUT YOU HAVE BEEN YOURSELF AS WE ALL ARMY.A SERVING MEMBER OF THE YOU WERE IN THE FIRST GULF WAR.
YOU KNOW A LOT ABOUT THE PROFESSION AND ALSO THE DOD.
WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE U.S.
MILITARY AND DID THE U.S.
MILITARY TELL THE PRESIDENT, MANY PRESIDENTS IN THE LAST 20 YEARS, THE ACTUAL TRUTH ABOUT WHAT WAS UNFOLDING ON THE GROUND WITH THE AFGHAN MILITARY?
WE ARE HEARING NOW, WE HEAR FROM CRAIG WHITLOCK IN THE 'WASHINGTON POST,' YOU KNOW, WE'RE HEARING ALL SORT OF QUOTES THAT U.S. MILITARY PRIVATELY HARBORED FUNDAMENTAL DOUBTS THAT THE AFGHAN FORCES WOULD EVER BE.
SHOULD THE U.S. MILITARY HAVE BEEN MORE FORTHRIGHT WITH THE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP?
WELL I CAN'T OBVIOUSLY SPEAK FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS, AND FOUR PRESIDENTS AND LORD KNOWS HOW MANY OTHER FOLKS INVOLVED IN THE DECISION MAKING AT THE TIME.
ALTHOUGH I DID HAVE A SEAT FROME TIME.
AND I WILL TELL YOU THAT I NEVER HAD A SENSE THAT ANYBODY WAS LYING ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN AFGHANISTAN OR TRYING TO FOOL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OR THE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP.
YOU KNOW, I WAS THERE AS EARLY AS 2001 ON THE GROUND AND THEN MADE MULTIPLE TRIPS IN BETWEEN.
AND YOU COULD SEE THE STEADY PROGRESS OF THE AFGHAN ARMY WITH REGARD TO THEIR CAPABILITIES.IT.
IT WAS NEVER GOOD ENOUGH.
BUT THEY WERE MAKING PROGRESS, AND I THINK MAYBE IT IS THE NATURE OF THE MILITARY TO SEE THE GLASS MORE HALF FULL THAN HALF EMPTY.
PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO, AGAIN,T FOOL THEIR POLITICAL LEADERS OR TO MISLEAD FOLKS.
JUST THE OPPOSITE.
I THINK WE WERE AGAIN VERY CLEAR EYED ABOUT WHAT WE COULD AND COULD NOT DO.
AND LOOK, AT THE END OF THE DAY THE UNITED STATES MILITARY PAID THE HEAVIEST PRICE OF ANY OF THE AMERICANS IN THAT COUNTRY OR ANYBODY IN THAT COUNTRY OTHER THAN THE AFGHAN PEOPLE.
AND I MUST SAY, OUR ALLY, NATO ALLIES PAID HEAVY PRICEs AS WELL.
SO I DON'T THINK -- I HAVE NO THE WAY YOU DESCRIBED IT.ED IT
BUT YOU ARE REALLY SHOCKED AT THE PRECIPITOUS, YOU KNOW, COLLAPSE, CORRECT?
OH, YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.
BUT IT GETS BACK TO WHAT I SAID UP FRONT IS THE AFGHAN PEOPLE NEVER HAD GOOD LEADERSHIP.
CERTAINLY AT THE TOP AT THE POLITICALLY LEVEL.
AND SO IF YOU DON'T HAVE GOOD LEADERSHIP, IT IS -- YOU SEE WILL, MORALE, ALL THOSE, THE MORAL FACTORS OF WAR THAT IN MANY WAYS ARE FAR, FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE MATERIAL FACTORS OF WAR.
THOSE THINGS SLIP AWAY.
AND WHY -- WHY WOULD YOU EXPECT THE AFGHAN ARMY TO FIGHT THE WAY YOU WOULD EXPECT THEM DO WHEN THEIR LEADERSHIP DESERTS THEM, LITERALLY.
PRESIDENT GHANI LEAVING THE COUNTRY.
OKAY.
SO, I WAS SURPRISED BY THE SPEED AT WHICH IT HAPPENED.
BUT GIVEN IS IT STATE OF OF THE LEADERSHIP, IT IS NOT SURPRISING TO UNDERSTAND WHY.
SO WHAT ABOUT THE -- I THINK IT IS SOMETHING LIKE 83 BILLION DOLLARS THAT THE U.S. POURED INTO AFGHAN FORCES.
AND THAT IN THE FULLNESS OF THE TOTAL COLLAPSE, WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT ACTUALLY SOME OF THE ISSUES WERE THAT THE UNITED STATES TRIED TO MAKE A U.S.-STYLE, YOU KNOW, MILITARY FORCE THERE THAT DEPENDED ENTIRELY ON U.S. EQUIPMENT, U.S.
MAINTENANCE, U.S. TRAINING, U.S.
HANDHOLDING.
ROBERTO ROBERT YATES ONE OF YOUR PREDECESSORS SAID THE ONE THING THEY ALL HAD IN COMMON, OR THERE WAS VARIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS WAS THAT THEY WERE ALL TRYING TO TRAIN A WESTERN ARMY INSTEAD OF FIGURING OUT THE STRENGTHS OF THE AFGHANS AS A FIGHTING PEOPLE AND BUILDING ON THAT.
THAT IS A LEGITIMATE PIECE OF ANALYSIS.
YOU WERE TRYING TO STAND UP SUCCESSIVE ADMINISTRATIONS SOMETHING THAT WASN'T AFGHAN.
IT WAS SORT OF ATTEMPTING TO BE AMERICAN?
YEAH I THINK THOSE ARE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS THAT SHOULD BE TEASED OUT, THAT DESERVE A LOT OF CLOSER SCRUTINY.
AND MAYBE WE'LL DO THAT.
WE SHOULD DO THAT OVER THE SECEDING MONTHS AND YEARS TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
AND IT WASN'T JUST THE UNITED STATES TRAINING, AGAIN, IT WAS OUR ALLIES AS WELL.
AND IT JUST DIDN'T APPLY TO THE MILITARY REALM.
WE ALSO IMPOSED A FORM OF GOVERNMENT THAT IS MORE FAMILIAR TO US A CENTRALIZED FORM OF GOVERNMENT THAN IT WAS A TRIBAL SOCIETY SUCH AS AFGHANISTAN.
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF AREAS WE COULD LOOK AND ASK YOURSELVES DID WE MAKE THE WRONG CHOICE?
OR WAS THIS THE BEST OF A FEW WORST CHOICES?
I THINK THAT NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT.
I THINK THOSE ARE SERIOUS CONSIDERATION.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY IT DOESN'T EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED OVER THE PAST WEEK, WEEK AND A HALF.
AGAIN, I -- WE SHOULD HAVE -- WE SHOULD HAVE NOT -- AND WE -- WE SHOULD HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB ANTICIPATING AND PLANNING FOR THE WITHDRAWAL OF AMERICANS, OF OUR AFGHAN PARTNERS AND ALL THOSE OTHER PARTS OF THIS THAT RIGHT NOW HAVE FALLEN APART BEFORE OUR EYES AND ARE LEADING TO THIS HUMANITARIAN CRISIS ON THE GROUND IN AFGHANISTAN.
SECRETARY ESPER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM ARIZONA.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FORB.
> NOW OF COURSE AS WE'VE SAID, MANY ARE SKEPTICAL OF THE TALIBAN CLAIMS TO PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN AND GIRLS DESPITE THEIR PROMISES AT THE PRESS CONFERENCE.
VIOLENT AND DEPLORABLE TREATMENT IS SOMETHING MY NEXT GUEST MALALA YOUSAFZAI HAS SUFFERED FIRSTHAND.
SHE WAS JUST A TEENAGER WHEN THE TALIBAN SHOT HER IN THE HEAD FOR GOING TO SCHOOL.
SINCE THEN SHE'S FOUNDED A FUND TO ADVOCATE FOR GIRLS EDUCATION WORLDWIDE AND ALSO GRADUATED FROM OXFORD UNIVERSITY AND JOINS ME NOW.
MALALA WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
I GUESS I SHOULD START BY ASKING YOUR FEELINGS, SENSE OF WHAT MIGHT BECOME OF AFGHAN WOMEN AND GIRLS TODAY NOW THAT THE TALIBAN ARE IN CHARGE OF THE COUNTRY.. MALALA CAN YOU HEAR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR?
YES I CAN.
YES.
OKAY.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO AFGHAN WOMEN AND GIRLS?
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS TODAY?
FIRST OF ALL I'M DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE SAFETY AND FUTURE OF AFGHAN SISTERS.
WOMEN'S RIGHTS, TALIBAN HAVE EXPRESSED CONCERN HOWEVER WE ARE UNSURE WHETHER THEY WILL FOLLOW THESE WORDS.
AND IT IS TOO EARLY TO SAY.
I STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE NARRATIVE OF THE TALIBAN WHEN THEY IT HAS TO BE ACCORDING TOT.
THERE ARE DOZENS OF MUSLIM COUNTS AROUND THE WORLD WHERE THERE IS NO ISSUE WITH WOMEN'S EDUCATION AND WOMEN IN JOURNALISM.
I'M WONDERING HOW THEY WILL DEFINE THEIR OWN SHARIA LAW BECAUSE THE SHARIA LAW WE SAW IN 1996 THEY IMPLEMENTED THAT DID NOT ALLOW WOMEN ANY RIGHTS.
THAT TREATED WOMEN AS UNEQUAL.
GIRLS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO BE IN SCHOOLS BUT ALSO THE TALIBAN HAVE ADMITTED IT THEMSELVES THEY MADE MISTAKES PREVIOUSLY SO I'M WORRIED HOW MANY MORE MISTAKES ARE THEY GOING MAKE FOR WOMENAN.
THIS. MALALA, LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE AS WE SAID IN 2012 YOU YOURSELF WERE ATTACKED BY A PAKISTANI TALIBAN.
YOU COME FROM PAKISTAN AND IT WAS THE PAKISTAN TALIBAN THAT SHOT YOU IN THE HEAD.
JUST REMIND US OF HOW INTENSE WAS THE DISREGARD FOR GIRLS AND WOMEN LIKE YOURSELF THAT THEY WOULD CLIMB ABOARD A SCHOOL BUS AND TRY TO SHOOT YOU AND KILL YOU FOR JUST WANTED TO GO TO SCHOOL.
JUST REMIND US OF THAT REALITY THAT EXISTED BACK THEN.
THE PAKISTANI TALIBAN ACTUALLY EMERGED FROM THE SAME IDEOLOGY OF THE TALIBAN THAT STARTS IN AFGHANISTAN.
THE TALIBAN HAVE A LONG HIS, THEY HAVE MANY LEADERS AND MANY SMALL GROUPS AND OVERALL THEY WORK ON THE SAME IDEOLOGY OF, YOU KNOW, THE SO CALLED SPREADING OF ISLAM BRINGING IN THEIR OWN SHARIA LAW AND ACTUALLY JUST -- WOMEN AND USING FORCE AND VIOLENCE AND THAT IS EXACTLY THAT THEY DID IN 2007 AND THEY STARTED IMPOSING RESTRICTIONS ON WOMEN TO GO TO MARKETS TO DO JOBS.
THEY ANNOUNCED A BAN ON GIRLS EDUCATION.
I WAS 11 YEARS OLD AT THAT TIME AND I COULD NOT GO TO SCHOOL.
I HAD TO HIDE MY BOOKS UNDER MY SCAR AND COULD NOT EVEN WAR MY SCHOOL UNIFORM BECAUSE IF THEY RECOGNIZE ME AS A STUDENT THEY MIGHT ATTACK, MIGHT THROW ACID BOMB BLASTS EVERY NIGHT.E MANY AND THOSE TWO YEARS WERE SOME OF THE WORST OF MY LIFE AND DARKEST DAYS AND DISPLACED SO MANY PEOPLE.
HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE BECAME DISPLACED INTERNALLY WITHIN PAKISTAN BECAUSE OF THE MILITIA OPERATIONS.
AND THE PAKISTAN ARMY THEN PULLED OUT THE TALIBAN FROM THE VAL BUT THE DAMAGES THEY CAUSED TOOK YEARS AND YEARS TO RECOVER AND THE REHABILITATION AND RECONSTRUCTION IS A LONG PROCESS BECAUSE AFGHANISTAN HAS SUFFERED FOR FOUR DECADES, 40 YEARS FROM ONE WAR TO ANOTHER, FROM ONE GEOPOLITICAL WAR OF, YOU KNOW, SOME COUNTRIES ARE INVOLVED AND THEN OTHER COUNTRIES ARE INVOLVED AND OTHER GROUP OF POWERS ARE INVOLVED BUT THE PEOPLE WHO SUFFER THE MOST ARE THE AFGHAN PEOPLE AND I'M WORRIED, YOU KNOW, IT WILL TAKE YEARS AND YEARS FOR AFGHAN PEOPLE TO RECOVER FROM THIS.
SO MALALA, I WANT TO ASK, YOU ARE AND YOU HAVE BUILT YOURSELF A GLOBAL POSITION AS AN ACTIVIST ON BEHALF OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
YOUR OWN PRIME MINISTER HAS COMMENTED THAT THE TALIBAN IN AFGHANISTAN HAVE BROKEN THE SHACKLES OF SLAVERY.
HE BELIEVES THAT THE TALIBAN HAVE COME TO RESCUE THE AFGHAN PEOPLE.
NOW, MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WOULD YOU ENGAGE THE TALIBAN IN YOUR OFFICIAL INTERNATIONAL ROLE AND PERSUADE THEM TO KEEP THE PROMISES THAT THEY ARE NOW MAKING PUBLICLY?
WE HEARD FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE THAT THEY WANT AFGHAN WOMEN TO JOIN THE WORK FORCE, TO JOIN THE GOVERNMENT, TO COME BACK.
THEY SAY THEY ARE A VITAL CONSTITUENT OF AFGHANISTAN.
WE KNOW UNICEF IS STAYING IN AFGHANISTAN.
THEY SAY THEY HAVE HAD TALIBAN AND FEEL THEY CANTHE CONTINUE THEIR WORK ON BEHALF OE CHILDREN.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU OR OTHERS COULD ENGAGE WITH THE TALIBAN IN AFGHANISTAN TO HOLD THEM TO THEIR PROMISES?
I THINK FIRST OF ALL REGARDING BREAKING THE SHACKLES OF SLAVERY AND ATROCITIES, I THINK AFGHANISTAN PEOPLE ARE --. THEY ARE SUFFERING FROM ONE PARTY AND THEN ANOTHER, EITHER FROM TERRORIST GROUPS OR FROM GLOBAL WARS.
OR FROM PROXY WARS OR THE PEOPLE -- THEY HAVE NOT SEEN ANY FREEDOM YET.
REGARDING THE GOVERNMENT OF THE TALIBAN, I THINK THEY ARE SEEKING LEGITIMACY RIGHT NOW AND THEY WANT INTERNATIONAL APPROVAL.
THAT IS WHY THEY ARE MAKING GOOD STATEMENTS.
AND -- AND I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR US TO REMEMBER THAT WE MUST PRESSURE ON THE TALIBAN WHETHER WE ACCEPT THE GOVERNMENT OR NOT IS A SEPARATE QUESTION AND THAT IS UP TO WORLD LEADERS.
I AM NOT IN THAT POSITION.
I AM A GIRL JUST LIKE OTHER GIRLS AROUND THE WORLD WHAT WON'T TO ENSURE THEIR RIGHTS ARE NOT DENIED TO THEM JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR GENDER AND THEY CAN GO TO SCHOOL.
THEY CAN GO TO WORK.
THEY CAN DO THEIR JOBS AND PROFESSIONS AND NOBODY IS DICTATING HOW THEY SHOULD LIVE THEIR LIFE. AND THIS IS THE FREEDOM THAT HAS BEEN GUARANTEED TO THEM WITHIN ISLAM SO, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE JUST A GROUP OF MEN WHO WILL SAY THAT NO, LET US INTERPRET ISLAM FOR YOU, I THINK DOES NOT ALLOW EITHER. ISLAM YEAH.
LET ME PLAY THIS SOUND BITE FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE REGARDING WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT AFGHAN WOMEN.
THERE WILL BE NO VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMAN, NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WOMAN.
OF COURSE BASED WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF ISLAMIC LAW OUR SISTERS AND MOTHERS WHICH HAVE BEEN SAID IN SHARIA LAW WHICH IS OUR VALUES. WOMAN IS IMPORTANT CORE TENANT OF OUR SOCIETY.
I THINK HE'S SAYING WOMEN ARE A IMPORTANT PART AS I DESCRIBED TO YOU AND ALSO AT THE PRESS CONFERENCE A FEMALE JOURNALIST STOOD UP AND ASKED, YOU KNOW, VERY PROFESSIONALLY FOR THEM TO WOULD LOOK LIKE, ETC.WHAT IT WE'VE ALSO SEEN THE FEMALE ANCHOR BACK AT HER STUDIO ON THE NEWS ACTUALLY INTERVIEWING A TALIBAN SPOKESMAN IN THE STUDIO.
WE'VE SEEN CERTAIN AFGHAN FEMALE REPORTERS IN THE STREETS IN KABUL AND ACTUALLY REPORTING THE NEWS.
DOES THAT GIVE YOU HOPE?
I THINK RIGHT NOW THE TALIBAN ARE ADMITTING THAT THEY HAVE MADE MISTAKES PREVIOUSLY AND THEY HAVE RECOGNIZED THAT ISLAM CANNOT DENY WOMEN THEIR RIGHTS AND THEIR CHOICES THAT THEY HAVE ACCESS TO EDUCATION.
I THINK IT IS JUST TOO EARLY TO SAY THEY WILL STICK TO THESE PROMISES.
IT MAY BE THAT THEY ARE -- THAT THEY ARE EITHER -- OR MAYBE THAT CHANGE.COMING MONTHS IT MIGHT SO I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE KEEP ON BUILDING PRESSURE ON THE TALIBAN TO STICK TO THEIR PROMISES.
I THINK -- WHAT THEY SAY THEY SHOW IN ACTIONS AS WELL AND THAT NO ONE IN AFGHANISTAN IS --. I THINK, YOU KNOW, REGARDING -- I THERE ARE FEW THINGS, WHETHER THEY ARE SAYING THE RIGHT NARRATIVE IN WORDS YES THAT IS CORRECT BUT THEN AGAIN THEY TALK IN --. ANDASE MENTIONED EARLIER LIKE HOW ARE THEY GOING TO DEFINE THAT SHARIA LAW.
VARIES SLIGHTLY.
THERE ARE OTHER COUNTRIES WHICH HAVE SHARIA LAW AS WELL.
AFGHANISTAN IS ALREADY AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY.
I'M WONDERING HOW THEY ARE GOING TO REDEFINE ISLAM IN AFGHANISTAN.
I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING OF A CONCERN AND WE HAVE TO WAIT HOW THEY DO THAT.
REGARDING HOW THE AFGHANISTAN CAME INTO POWER, I AM FOR DEMOCRACY AND I THINK FOR ME IT HAS TO BE THE DECISION OF THE PEOPLE THROUGH THE VOTE WHO THEY WANT TO BE ELECTED, WHO THEY WANT TO GOVERN THEM.
SO I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING IN ITSELF.
AND WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THAT SEPARATELY BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE RECOGNIZE THAT IT SHOULD BE THE RIGHT OF AFGHANS, THE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN, THAT THEY DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHO SHOULD BE RULING THEM AND IT IS NOT JUST, YOU KNOW, A GROUP OF PEOPLE HOLDING GUNS AND OCCUPYING THEIR CITIES, THEIR TOWNS, MAKING THEM DISPLACED TO TELL THEM THAT NOW --
OKAY.
-- GOVERNMENT FOR THEM.
I JUST WANT, YOU KNOW, TO YOUR POINT, ONE OF THE AFGHAN JOURNALIST, FEMALE JOURNALISTS EXPRESSED HER CONCERN PARTICULARLY FOR JOURNALISTS.
BECAUSE ACTUALLY IN THE LAST 20 YEARS INFORMATION HAD FLOURISHED.
JOURNALISM HAS FLOURISHED.
AND WOMEN HAVE REALLY BEEN PART OF THAT HUGE NEW PROFESSION IN AFGHANISTAN BUILT OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS.
HERE IS ANIZA SHAHEED.
> VERY BRIEFLY, MALALA.
FOR ANYBODY WHO IS AFRAID AND AS YOU HAVE SEEN SO MANY AFGHANS TRYING TO GET OUT, WHAT DO YOU THINK EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES SHOULD BE DOING RIGHT NOW TO HELP THOSE MOST AT RISK?
AFGHANISTAN.IRST OF ALL WE STANF SAFETY OF THE AFGHANISTAN PEOPLE SHOULD BE TOP PRIORITY RIGHT NOW AND I HAVE SPOKEN TO -- ACTIVIST S AND THEY ARE CONCERNS --. INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY THEY HAVE RESPONSIBILITY TO THESE INDIVIDUALS AND INDIVIDUAL FAMILIES ON CALLING ON THE U.S., THE UK, U.N., OTHERS TO URGENTLY COMMIT TO SUBSTANTIAL RELOCATION AND SETTLEMENT PROGRAMS FOR THE PROTECTION OF THOSE IMMINENTLY UNDER THREAT.
THEY NEED URGENT HELP AND I ALSO REQUEST ALL THE NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES OF AFGHANISTAN, INCLUDING PAKISTAN, IRAN AND TURKMENISTAN TO OPEN THEIR BORDERS TO THE AFGHAN REFUGES.
THEY NEED SAFETY.
THANKS FOR JOINING US.
NOW MY NEXT GUEST ALSO KNOWS FIRSTHAND THE DIFFICULT AND OFTEN PERILOUS STRUGGLE FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS RIGHTS.
SHE'S NOT AN AFGHAN WOMAN BUT SHE'S AMERICA'S OWN BILLIE JEAN KING.
PEOPLE CLIMBING ALL OVER EACH OTHER IN A LAST-DITCH ATTEMPT.
HE TAKES A LOOK AT THEIR FRANTIC EFFORTS TO ESCAPE.
THIS IS THE ONLY WAY OUT FOR SO MANY.
THE AIRPORT ROAD JAMMED, CHAOS.
OVER A TRILLION DOLLARS SPENT, AND THIS IS WHAT THE END LOOKS LIKE.
WALK WHERE YOU CAN'T DRIVE.
JUST AHEAD OF US IS THE GATES IN THE AIRPORT AND THIS IS THE PANICKED SCENE OF MANY PEOPLE STILL MOVING THERE.
AT THE LAST ENTRY AMERICA CONTROLS, THERE IS PANIC.
THANKS, SOMEONE SHOUTS.
BUT WHO IS DOING CROWD CONTROL?
THE TALIBAN.
WITH VEHICLES THEY HAVE TAKEN FROM THE AFGHAN ARMY PAID FOR BY AMERICA, NOW USED TO KEEP THE DESPERATE CROWDS BACK.
PEOPLE WHOSE ONLY HOPE IS TO GET OUT, POSSIBLY WITH AMERICAN HELP.
CROWDING AT GATES, TRYING TO CLAMBER WALLS ORIGINALLY BUILT TO KEEP AN INSURGENCY OUT.
AT ONE TIME PUSHING ON MASKS AND BEING SENT RUNNING.
NEARLY EVERY GATE WITH A KROUL FUELED WITH THE IDEA THIS IS THEIR ONLY WAY OUT.
U.S. TROOPS AT THE PERIMETER SHOT DEAD TWO AFGHANS WHO THEY SAID WERE ARMED BUT LATER ADMITTED WERE NOT TALIBAN.
BUT INSIDE THE AIRPORT, THE GREAT ESCAPE WAS NOT GOING ACCORDING TO SCRIPT AND CHECK IN SECURITY HAD COLLAPSED.
AFGHANS CONVINCED THE PROMISE OF A FLIGHT OUT WAS THEIR ONLY LIFE AHEAD, CLAMBERING ONLY WALKWAYS AND TARMAC THE U.S. SPENT BILLIONS ON TO MAINTAIN ITS PRESENCE.
AND THEN THE STARTLING IMAGE, ONE OF THE U.S.'S LARGEST CARGO PLANES TAXIING WITH AFGHANS WHO DID NOT WANT TO BE LEFT BEHIND.
WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO SEE THE DISTURBING.OBJECTS OR PEOPLE APO FALL FROM THE FUSELAGE.
BUT THE SHEER SCALE OF THOSE WHO NEEDED HELP MEANT IT WAS EVEN HARDER TO COME BY.
CIVILIAN FLIGHTS CANCELED.
EVEN THE AMERICANS HAS TO PAUSE OPERATIONS UNTIL THEY COULD REGAIN CONTROL.
THESE IMAGES FROM SATELLITES IN SPACE SHOWING JUST THE VOLUME OF PEOPLE IN AND AROUND THE INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, THE SYMBOL OF THE UNITED STATES' BILLIONS SPENT IN THE 20-YEAR PROJECT.
THE U.S. ALWAYS WANTED TO WIN HEARTS AND MINDS HERE, BUT THEIR SWIFT, UNCONDITIONAL DEPARTURE HAS INSTEAD FILLED THEM WITH PANIC.
NOW, MY NEXT GUEST ALSO KNOWS FIRSTHAND THE DIFFICULT AND OFTEN PERILOUS STRUGGLE FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS RIGHTS.
SHE'S NOT AN AFGHAN WOMAN BUT SHE'S AMERICA'S OWN BILLIE JEAN.
THE VETERAN TENNIS CHAMPION AND TIRELESS SOCIAL ACTIVIST WHO REFUSED TO ACCEPT UNEQUAL TREATMENT FOR WOMEN OR PEOPLE O.
KING HAS A NEW MEMOIRE CALLED 'ALL IN' OUT TODAY.
IN IT SHE WRITES EARLY ON WHAT WAS MOST APPARENT TO ME IS THAT THE WORLD I WANTED DEBATE EXIST YET.
IT WOULD BE UP TO MY GENERATION.
CREATE THAT WORLD.G JOINS ME MOD WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
BILLY JEAN KING, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO THISE BEEN WATCHING WHAT'S UNFOLDING AND IN A WAY, IN A VERY EXTREME WAY IT KIND OF REFLECTS WHAT YOU HAVE TRIED TO DO ALL YOUR LIFE SINCE A CHILD FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS IN THE UNITED STATES.
HAS THAT RESONATED WITH YOU OVER THE LAST COUPLE DAYS?
OH FOR SURE.
BUT ALL THE WOMEN AND GIRLS AND PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN OUR ALLIES IN AFGHANISTAN, WE'VE GOT TO WORRY ABOUT THEIR SAFETY FIRST JUST LIKE MALALA SAID.
AND PROTECT THEM.
AND OFFER THEM WAYS TO GET OUT.
I KNOW, I THINK IT IS LANDLOCKED, IF I HAVE IT RIGHT SO IT'S NOT LIKE THEY CAN GO TO SEA OR TRY TO GET AWAY THAT WAY, SO WE HAVE TO FIGURE HOW TO FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY WOMEN HAVE TO BE AN INTEGRAL PART OF EVERYE IN GOVERNMENT, JOURNALISM, ETC.
THEY HAVE TO BE.
JOBS WHATEVER.
SO LET ME ASK YOU THEN BECAUSE TALKING TO MALALA AND YOU, SHE STARTED AS A YOUNG KID.
YOU WANTED TO BE A SPORTS GIRL.
YOU WANTED TO BE A TENNIS CHAMP.
BUT YOU ALSO EARLY ON IDENTIFIED A WORLD THAT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE THE ONE YOU EXPECTED IT TO BE.
PARTICULARLY.
FOR GIRLS.
AND THEIR OPPORTUNITIES.
AND EVEN WHILE YOU WERE, YOU KNOW, SORT OF PERFECT YOUR SPORTS PROWESS YOU GOT ALL SORT OF SEXIST QUESTIONS ABOUT WHEN WOULD YOU SETTLE DOWN AND GET MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS.
HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT FOR YOU AS A YOUNG GIRL?
WELL COMPARED TO WOMEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES I WOULD SAY IT WASN'T DIFFICULT.
BUT IT WAS DIFFICULT IN MY OWN SMALL WORLD.
AND THAT I KNEW I WAS A SECOND CLASS CITIZEN VERY EARLY AT SCHOOL.
BOYS WERE ALWAYS CALLED ON.
ALWAYS -- EVERYBODY PUT ALL THEIR FOCUS ON THE BOYS.
THERE ARE VERY FEW SPORTS AVAILABLE TO GIRLS.
I WANTED TO BE A PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL PLAYER.
WELL ONLY MEN CAN PLAY BASEBALL AT THE PROFESSIONAL LEVEL.
EVEN TODAY.
SO I GOT VERY, VERY LUCKY CHRISTIANE WHEN SUSAN WILLIAMS IN 5th GRADE ASKED ME 'DO YOUWA' I GO WHAT'S TENNIS?
SO SHE GOT ME TO IT AND THEN I WENT OUT TO THE PUBLIC PARKS WITH CLYDE WALKER WHERE THEY GAVE FREE INSTRUCTION AND FREE ACCESS TO THE COURTS AND THAT I.
AT THE END OF THAT DAY I KNEW I WANTED TO BE THE NUMBER 1 PLAYER IN THE WORLD.
AND THEN IF YOU FAST FORWARD ONE YEAR WHEN I WAS 12 AND I'M STARTING TO PLAY IN TOURNAMENTS FOR RANKINGS, I WAS DAYDREAMING AND REALIZED THAT EVERYBODY WHO PLAYED HAD WHITE SHOES AND WHITE CLOTHE, PLAYED WITH WHITE BALLS AND EVERYBODY WHO PLAYED TENNIS THAT I KNEW AT THAT TIME WORE WHITE.
AND I ASKED MYSELF WHERE IS EVERYONE ELSE?
AND THAT WAS MY EPIPHANY, THE MOMENT I DECIDED I WOULD FIGHT FOR EQUALITY THE REST OF MY LIFE.
AND IN YOU ARE OWN LITTLE MICROCOSM OF LIFE, TENNIS, WE HAD A LOT TO DO TO CORRECT THAT.
ITS BEEN A LONG HAUL JUST TO CORRECT THAT.
BUT IT ALSO REFLECT WHAT IS'S GOING ON.
HAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO EFFECT THE WHOLE WORLD.
EVERY TIME A PLAYER BECOMES GOOD AND PEOPLE NOTICE THEM, THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO HELP THEIR VILLAGE, THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO HELP THEIR TOWN, THEIR COUNTRY AND TO BE LEADERS.
AND THEY FOUND EVEN IN BUSINESS WOMEN WHO ARE IN THE C SUITES, MOST OF THEM 94% IDENTIFY WITH BEING AN ATHLETE.
SO WE NEED MORE CEOs.
WE NEED MORE OF EVERYTHING OUT THERE AND WOMEN HAVE TO BE EDUCATED JUST LIKE THE BOYS AND.
AND NO MATTER HOW YOU WOULD -- YOU KNOW, HOW YOU IDENTIFY WITH GENDER, EVERYONE SHOULD BE EDUCATED, EVERYBODY SHOULD BE A REPRESENTED IN ALL ASPECTS OFSO.
YOU KNOW, CLEARLY FROM YOUR BOOK AND FOR YOUR LIFE STORY IT IS OBVIOUS THAT YOU BELIEVE SPORTS WAS ALSO POLITICAL.
VEHICLE.AVE EXPLAINED A LITTLEBR WE'RE GOING TALK ABOUT THE RECORD BREAKING CHAMPIONSHIPS AND YOUR AMAZING ACHIEVEMENT AS A TENNIS PLAYER.
BUT YOU HAVE ALSO BECOME, I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, LEGITIMATICALLY ONE OF THE GREAT SOCIAL AND POLITICAL ACTIVISTS OF THE CENTURY FOR YOUR COUNTRY.
YOU START YOUR BOOK, THOUGH, WITH THIS REALLY IMPORTANT OBSERVATION.
AND YOU QUOTE THE GREAT SUPREME COURT JUSTICE RUTH BADER GINSBURG.
YOU SAY THAT SHE SAID FIGHT FOR THE THINGS THAT YOU CARE ABOUT, BUT DO IT IN WAY TO LEAD OTHERS TO JOIN YOU.
SO HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT FOR YOU TO DO IT IN A WAY THAT WOULD LEAD OTHERS TO JOIN YOU?
YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WANTED TO CREATE BUT YOU COULDN'T DO IT ON YOUR OWN.
NO, YOU CANNOT DO IT ON YOUR OWN. AND I ALWAYS FELT LIKE I'VE BEEN ON A TIGHT ROPE, WHICH I THINK A LOT OF WOMEN AND PEOPLE THAT FELT THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO LEAD AND TRYING TO LEAD CHANGE.
CHANGE IS DIFFICULT.
THERE IS NO QUESTION PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO CHANGE AND I WAS CHOSEN AS A LEADER REALLY.
THE WOMEN TENNIS PLAYERS SAID YOU LEAD.
YOU LEAD.
I HAPPENED TO BE NUMBER 1 IN THE WORLD THAT DIDN'T HURT BUT I SAID NO YOU DO IT.
AND FINALLY I JUST SAID I'M GOING EMBRACE THE FACT THAT I AM GOING TO BE THE LEADER OF THIS CHANGE AND IN 1979 IT WAS SIGNED A ONE DOLLAR CONTRACT WITH GLADS HELMAN THAT IS THE BIRTH OF WOMEN'S PROFESSIONAL TENNIS.
ANY TIME YOU SEE A WOMAN GET A CHECK OR HAVE THIS PLATFORM TO TALK ABOUT ISSUES THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO THEM IT IS BECAUSE OF THAT MOMENT IN TIMES BECAUSE IT IS STILL RELEVANT TODAY.
SO EVERY TIME A TENNIS PLAYER WOMAN GETS A CHECK IT IS BECAUSE OF THAT MOMENT IN TIME THAT WE CAREERS.LING TO GIVE UP OUR AND THE THREE THINGS THAT WE ARE WILLING DO FOR THE FUTURE GENERATIONS WAS THAT ANY GIRL BORN IN THIS WORLD, IF SHE WAS GOOD ENOUGH TO FINALLY HAVE A PLACE TO COMPETE THAT WE BE APPRECIATED FOR OUROT ONLY OURL.
AND NUMBER 3 MOST IMPORTANTLY T.
BECAUSE WE ALL REMEMBERED HOW IT WAS AS AMATEURS MAKING $14 A DA.
WE ALSO FOUGHT FOR EQUAL PRIZE MONEY IN THE MAJOR, WE GO.
THE REST OF THE WORLD?HAT FOR IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE MONEY.F EQUALITY FOR EVERYONE AND IN EVERY GIRL, EVERY PERSON IN THE WORLD SHOULD HAVE A CHANCE TO EXPERIENCE IT.
SO WHAT'S GOING ON IN ANY COUNTRY FIRST SAFETY, PROTECTION, BUT LET'S GET WOMEN EDUCATED.
LEADERSHIP. IN POSITIONS OF AND ONE THING IS A CHALLENGE IS REALLY WHAT IRRITATES ME ASIS WELL.
WHEN WOMEN LEAD, THEY THINK WE'RE ONLY LEADING FOR WOMEN.
AND THAT IS NOT TRUE.
WHEN WOMEN LEAD, THEY LEAD FORE.
JUST LIKE WHEN THE MALE LEADS.
AND WHEN A MALE LEADS THEY NEVER SAY OH HE JUST TRYING TO HELPME.
HE'S A LEADER FOR EVERYONE.
SAME WITH WOMEN.
WE'LL NEVER HAVE A PRESIDENT OF.
WE'LL NEVER HAVE MORE PRIME MINISTERS AND MORE WOMEN AT THINK LIKE THAT.T UNLESS WE WOMEN LEAD FOR EVERYONE NOT JUS.
YOU KNOW, AGAIN, JUST TO QUOTE, YOU SAY I HAD HEARD ABOUT THE AMERICAN DREAM, AND I THOUGHT IT APPLIED UNCONDITIONALLY TO ME.
BUT I REALIZE NO MATTER HOW GOOD I WAS, MY LIFE WOULD BE LIMITED BECAUSE I WAS FEMALE.
AND, YOU KNOW, WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THE BATTLE OF THE SEXES.
THING.AS THE MOST INCREDIBLE IT SWEPT PEOPLE'S IMAGINATION.
YOU BEAT BOBBY RIGGS, THE FAMOUS EGYPTIAN LITTER THAT YOU USED TO ENTER THE ARENA, THE PIGLET IN TERMS OF MALE SHOOUF CHAUF NIS PIG.
THIS WAS MORE THAN A TENNIS MATCH.
CHANGED FOR YOUR SPORT ANDHAT AFTER WINNING THAT MATCH AGAINST BOBBY RIGGS?
WELL, IT IS EXPOSURE I GOT.
IT WAS 90 MILLION PEOPLE WORLDWIDE SO PEOPLE KNEW WHO IW.
AND FIRST TIME THEY HAD EVER WATCHED TENNIS FOR MANY PEOPLE.
BUT FOR IN THE UNITED STATES WE'D JUST PASSED TITLE 9 A YEAR BEFORE IN 1972.
AND FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS IS, AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT A SCHOOL, HIGH SCHOOL OR COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY, PRIVATE OR PUBLIC RECEIVED FEDERAL FUNDS FOR THE FIRST TIME THEY WOULD HAVE TO SPEND IT EQUALLY FOR GIRLS AND BOYS.
AND THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING.
BECAUSE PEOPLE FOLLOWED THE MONEY.
A LOT OF SCHOOLS THAT WERE SINGLE GENDER SCHOOLS BECAME COED QUICKLY BECAUSE THEY WANTE.
AND ALSO CLASSROOM QUOTAS WERE FINALLY DISMISSED BECAUSE BEFORE THAT IF YOU WANT TO GO TO HARVARD AND GET A MEDICAL DEGREE ONLY 5% OF THE CLASSROOM WAS ALLOWED TO BE WOMEN.
THAT IS WHY WE HAD SO FEW LAWYERS AND DOCTORS AS WOMEN BACK IN THE '60s, IN THE '70s SO THAT WAS DIMINISHED.
1973 WE STILL COULDN'T GET A CREDIT CARD ON OUR OWN.
SO IT IS THOSE KIND OF THINGS BROKE DOWN BECAUSE OF THAT MATCH.
IT WAS ABOUT SOCIAL CHANGE.
AND WE DID HAVE IT.
ALSO FROM A SPORTS POINT OF VIEW YOU COULD NOT GET ON A TENNIS COURT AFTER THAT MATCH.
WHICH MEANT TENNIS AS A SPORT JUST EXPLODED.
IT.PLE WANTED TO BE A PART OF WERE DOING.RE OR WHATEVER THEYAE IT WAS VERY IN AND IT GREW LIKE.
BUT THE GREAT THING ABOUT TENNIS AND OTHER SPORTS, SOME OTHER SPORTS NOT ALL, IS THAT IT IS GLOBAL.
AND THAT IS WHY WE HAVE A CHANCE.
TO EFFECT THINGS.
BECAUSE WE ARE GLOBAL AS A SPORT.
AND IT IS IMPORTANT THAT OUR TOP PLAYERS SPEAK OUT, WHICH THEY DO.
YOU SEE NAOMI OSAKA, YOU HAVE SEEN SIMONE BILES.
YOU HAVE SEEN ALL THE DIFFERENT BUT WOMEN'S TENNIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE LEADER.
WE'VE ALWAYS LED IN SO MANY WAYS ON JUST TRYING TO IMPROVE LIFE FOR EVERYONE.
SO WE'RE GOING CONTINUE TO DO THAT.
WE ARE THE LEADERS IN WOMEN'S SPORTS TENNIS.
BUT WE HAVE A LONG WAY GO STILL.
MICROCOSM OF SOCIETY.RTS ARE WE ARE A MICROCOSM OF THE SOCIETY.
IF YOU SEE WHAT'S GOING ON IN AFGHANISTAN.
YOU HEAR PEOPLE TALK.
THAT IS REFLECTION OF HOW FAR WE STILL HAVE TO GO TO IMPROVE AGI.
SO LOOK, LET'S JUST GET BACK TO THE EQUAL PAY ISSUE.
YOU STARTED THE FIRST WOMEN'S PRO TOUR.
AND THEN CAME EQUAL PAY.
AND IN THE BOOK YOU DESCRIBE AN ENCOUNTER WITH THE DIRECTOR OF THE U.S. OPEN SOMEWHERE AROUND 1973 IN WHICH YOU NEGOTIATED WITH HIM WHILE ALSO TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, WIN MORE TITLES.
AND YOU WERE SUCCESSFUL IN CALLING HIS BLUFF TO AN EXTENT OVER THE ISSUE OF EQUAL PAY.
WHERE DO YOU GET THE COJONES TO LAY DOWN THESE NEGOTIATING TACTICS, AS WELL AS ALSO PLAYING YOUR GAME?
FIRST OF ALL IN THE OLD DAYS, LARRY KING MY FORMER HUSBAND, NOT THAT LARRY KING.
HE AND I OWNED TOURNAMENTS.
SO I STARTED TO LEARN THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BUSINESS NOT JUST PLAYING TENNIS BUT ALSO RUNNING EVENTS.
AND 1972 I SAID TO THE U.S. OPEN PEOPLE, I KNOW I WON'T COME BACK NEXT YEAR AND I'M GOING TALK TO THE WOMEN ABOUT NOT COMING BACK NEXT YEAR UNLESS WE GET EQUAL PRIZE MONEY.
THEN I THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND THOUGHT WHAT CAN WE DO TO HELP OURSELVES?
SO I WENT TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE TALKED TO THEM BEHIND THE SCENES THROUGH.ERENCE IN THE PRIZEMONEE SO WHEN I WENT TO SPEAK WITH MONEY, I BROUGHT HIM THE MONEY TO MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE.
NOT I DID.
BRISTOL MYERS DID.
AND I COULD TELL THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING WHEN HE HEARD THAT WELL I'VE ALREADY GOT A SPONSORT ANYMORE MONEY.
YOU.E GOING TO MAKE IT EASY ON AND BILLY TALBERT WAS FANTASTIC.
HE SPOKE UP AND SAID WE'RE GOING TO DO IT.
A FEW MONTHS LATER.
AND IT HAPPENED.
AND I DON'T EVEN THINK THEY VOTED ON IT AT THE USGA, THE GOVERNING BODY OF TENNIS IN THE UNITED STATES.
SO THANK YOU BILLY TALBERT FOR DOING THAT.
I WISH YOU WERE STILL ALIVE I COULD THANK HIM IN PERSON BUT ANYWAY WE HAD EQUAL PRIZE MONEY IN 1973.
FIRST MAJOR TOURNAMENT IN GRAND SLAM TOURNAMENT TO DO THAT.
AND THEN IT TOOK ANOTHER 34 YEARS, WE FINALLY GOT WIMBLEDON.
INCREDIBLE.
WHAT A JOURNEY.
LES TALK LITTLE BIT MORE PERSONALLY BECAUSE NOT ONLY ARES RIGHTS BUT ALSO NOW FOR LGBTQ PLUS RIGHTS.
AND YOU YOURSELF GRAPPLED WITH YOUR OWN SEXUALITY.
YOU WERE MARRIED FOR A LONG LON.
AND THEN YOU WERE OUTED AFTER AR HAIRDRESSER/ASSISTANT.
DETAIL IN YOUR BOOK.N GRAPHIC YOU WERE OUTED. SHOCKING.
YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE AT THAT TIME TO COME FORWARD.
AND YOU SUFFERED ALL SORT OF MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, EATING ISSUES, DISORDERS, YOU WENT INTO REHAB.
YOU SAY.ME JUST READ THIS WHAT STILL YOU DESCRIBE DEALING WITH YOUR SEXUALITY AS THE HARDEST, YOUR LIFE.STING CHALLENGE OF YOU LOST YOUR CORPORATE SPONSORS OVERNIGHT BACK IN 1981 WHEN YOU.
GIVE ME A SENSE OF HOW TRAUMATIC THAT WAS FOR YOU.
AND HOW YOU STILL TALK ABOUT, SORT OF, DEFLECTING STILL THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE DESPITE BEINGOR PROMINENT ACTIVIST FOR GAY RIGHTS.
WELL IT HAS BEEN -- ITS BEENE PERSONALLY.
I FINALLY GOT COMFORTABLE AT THE AGE OF 51, WHICH I TALK ABOUT I.
THE THING THAT IS GOOD IS THAT WHEN PEOPLE COME TO TALK TO ME AND WITH ME IS THEY ARE BEINGCH.
PART OF THIS. THE SHAME-BASED WAY.THIS IS WHAT GETS IN THE ANY TIME YOU ARE SHAME-BASED OR ANY TIME THERE ARE SECRETS, IT DOESN'T WORK.
AND I'VE HAD A LOT OF THERAPY, AND THANK GOD FOR MY THERAPIST, MY DIFFERENT ONES THAT HAVE MADE SO ALL THE THERAPISTS OUT THERE.
AND THE SUPPORT SYSTEMS THAT AR.
SO I THINK I'M A GOOD SOUNDINGBOARD.
I'LL LISTEN.
BUT I REALLY WANT PEOPLE WHEN THEY ARE READY TO COME OUT.
BUT ONLY WHEN THEY ARE READY.
I DON'T THINK IT IS REALLY A VERY FUN THING TO OUT PEOPLE.
SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO DO THAT.
I WOULD NOT DO THAT.
THINGS ARE SO MUCH BETTER NOW COUNTRIES.USED TO BE IN MOE NOT ALL COUNTRIES BUT IT IS SO MUCH BETTER.
AND UNITED STATES IT IS DEFINITELY A LOT BETTER.
NOW MOST OF OUR ISSUES ARE TRANSGENDER FRIENDS AND ALSO THE YOUTH.
40 PERCENT MORE SUICIDES THAN OTHER GROUPS.
COMES BACK TO THAT SHAME BASE.
AND WE MUST KEEP CHANGING THAT AND THAT PEOPLE DON'T JUDGE US BY OUR SEXUALITY ONLY AND THAT PEOPLE ARE WELCOMING.
BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE HAVE SOMEBODY IN THEIR FAMILY WHO IS GAY, EVEN IF THEY DON'T KNOW IT.
THEIR FAMILY.LLY SOMEBODY IN AND IT REALLY SHOULD NOT BE IMPEDIMENT IN SOMEBODY'S LIFE THAT WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE HAPPY AND EVERYONE SHOULD BE HAPPY IN WHOEVER THEY ARE.
AND HOW THEY IDENTIFY BY GENDER OR SEXUALITY.
BEST THAT LIFE HAS TO OFFER.E BOOK YOU REVEALED THAT YOU MARRIED IN SECRET WHILE SECRETLY, PRIVATELY, NOT SECRETLY, BUT PRIVATELY.
YOUR FOUR-DECADE PARTNER ELENA CLOSS.
AND I'M WONDERING WHY YOU DECIDED TO MAKE THAT SO PRIVATE AND NOT REVEAL IT UNTIL THIS BOOK HAS BEEN PUBLISHED?
WELL WE WANTED SOMETHING THAT WOULD JUST BELONG TO THE TWO OF.
BECAUSE WE'RE SO PUBLIC ALL THE.
YOU KNOW WE HAVE PART OWNERSHIP IN PROFESSIONAL TEAMS.
WE'RE ALWAYS OUT THERE.
WE'RE ALWAYS, YOU KNOW, JUST TIME.A LOT OF PEOPLE ALL THE AND IT IS LIKE, WE SAID TO EACH OTHER, LET'S JUST -- LET'S GET MARRIED.
AND WE DEFINITELY WANTED MAYOR DINKENS WHO WE ADORED.
HE JUST PASSED AWAY NOT TOO LONG AGO AND HIS WIFE.
WE WANTED HIM TO MARRY US.
EVERY TIME WE'D SEE HIM, HE'DSAM THE ONE.
AND WE SAID YOU ARE THE ONE.
WE LOVED HIM SO MUCH.
WE DEFINITELY WANTED TO GET MARRIED I WANTED TO MARRIED THINK I WASN'T TOTAL COMMITTED TO ELENA WHO I ADORE AND LOVE VERY MUCH.
I WAS JUST LIKE LET'S JUST GO FOR IT.
BUT SHE AND I DECIDED TOGETHER TO KEEP IT PRIVATE.
WE WANTED SOMETHING JUST FOR US.
AND IT IS A GREAT STORY AND IT IS A GREAT BOOK.
YOU ARE A GREAT CHAMPION OF ALL.
SO BILLIE JEAN KING, 'ALL IN.'
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOININGUS.
WITH THE BACK STORY.
AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
THANKS FOR WATCHING ON PBS.
AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
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