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♪♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
THE STAGE IS SET FOR THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION IN CHICAGO WITH A BURST OF ENTHUSIASM FOR KAMALA HARRIS.
I'M JOINED BY DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN DEAN PHILLIPS, ONE OF THE VERY FIRST TO WARN ABOUT BIDEN'S CHANCES OF WINNING.
>>> THEN -- >> YOU CAN SEE THE DAMAGE THAT'S BEEN DONE TO THIS STREET HERE.
>> INSIDE THE RUSSIAN TOWN OVERTAKEN BY UKRAINE.
WE HAVE A SPECIAL REPORT.
>>> ALSO AHEAD, THE FIGHT AGAINST FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION IN GAMBIA.
I'M JOINED BY AN FGM SURVIVOR AND AN ACTIVIST THERE WHO STOPPED EFFORTS TO LEGAL ADVERTISE PRACTICE.
>>> THAT AURA, THE GLAMOUR AND DISCUSSION AROUND HER PLAYED HER REALLY STAND OUT.
>> "WASHINGTON POST" CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER LIZ GOODWIN TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT THE EVOLUTION OF KAMALA HARRIS AND WHAT LIES AHEAD.
>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
IT'S ALL ABOARD AND FULL STEAM AHEAD AS THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION KICKS OFF IN CHICAGO TONIGHT.
IT'S WHERE LINCOLN ACCEPTED THE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION IN 1860 AND A SLEW OF REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS HAVE DONE SO EVER SINCE.
IT'S ALSO A CITY OF POLITICAL PROTEST, AND THIS CONVENTION PROMISES MORE OF THAT.
ACROSS THE WORLD, ALLIES AND ANTAGONISTS WILL BE WATCHING CAREFULLY TO GET A MEASURE OF KAMALA HARRIS' POLICY AND GRIP ON THE ELECTION.
NOT SO LONG AGO, DEMOCRATS WORRIED THAT THEIR CONVENTION WOULD BE A RATHER DOWNCAST AFFAIR.
BUT THE PARTY AND THE RACE HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY TRANSFORMED SINCE PRESIDENT BIDEN DECIDED TO DROP OUT A MONTH AGO AND HAND THE BATON TO HIS VICE PRESIDENT.
THE DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN STEADILY CLAWING BACK LOST GROUND ACCORDING TO THE LATEST POLLS AND ARE HOPING TO KEEP THE GOOD FEELING LONG AFTER THIS WEEK, WITH SUPERSTAR PARTY STALWARTS LIKE THE OBAMAS, THE CLINTONS AND NANCY PELOSI ALL SPEAKING AFTER PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN HEADLINES OPENING NIGHT.
A NIGHT HE, OF COURSE, HAD HOPED TO BE BASKING IN ADULATION AND THE NOMINATION OF A GRATEFUL PARTY FAITHFUL.
FEW COULD HAVE FORESEEN THE TWISTS AND TURNS THAT LED HERE, BUT MY FIRST GUEST GOT VERY CLOSE, DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN DEAN PHILLIPS WAS A ONE-MAN EARLY WARNING SYSTEM CITING PRESIDENT BIDEN'S AGE AND ABILITY TO RUN AND WIN A SECOND TIME.
HE EVEN DECIDED TO CHALLENGE BIDEN BY RUNNING AGAINST HIM IN THE PRIMARIES EARLIER THIS YEAR, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM CHICAGO.
CONGRESSMAN PHILLIPS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, CHRISTIANE.
AND LET ME TELL YOU, THE WINDY CITY IS LIVING UP TO ITS NAME TODAY.
>> IT CERTAINLY IS.
BUT SOME SAY THE WIND IS ABOUT POLITICAL BLATHER.
SO LET ME ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ALL THAT'S GONE ON ACROSS THE AIRWAVES AND ELSEWHERE REGARDING WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.
AND YOU WERE THE FIRST I THINK IN MAJOR WAY TO REALLY RAISE THE ALARM THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN COULDN'T WIN AGAIN.
HOW YOU FEELING NOW?
>> I GOT TO TELL YOU, CHRISTIANE, I HOPE IF NOTHING ELSE THAT MY JOURNEY WILL INSPIRE OTHERS TO PURSUE MISSIONS OF PRINCIPLE.
I SAW WITH MY EYES, I HEARD WITH MY EARS, I READ THE NUMBERS IN FRONT OF MY FACE.
AND IT WAS SO CLEAR TO ME WHAT WE WERE FACING, SLEEPWALKING INTO ANOTHER DISASTER.
BUT OF COURSE IN POLITICS BOTH HERE AND IN THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND THE WORLD, THERE ARE RARELY PROFESSIONAL REWARDS FOR COURAGE.
IN FACT, COURAGE IS OFTEN PUNISHED.
AND I'M FEELING JOYFUL.
I WAS HOPEFUL.
I WAS EXCITED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY IF WE COULD JUST MAKE THAT CHANGE THAT WE COULD FEEL LIKE WE DO RIGHT NOW.
AND I HAVE NO RESENTMENT, ONLY GRATITUDE AND A GREAT DEAL OF EXCITEMENT FOR WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED, BECAUSE IT IS NEVER TOO LATE.
>> SO WALK ME THROUGH A LITTLE BIT.
AS YOU SAY, I MEAN, I THINK YOU WERE SORT OF LET'S SAY OUTCASTED BY YOUR PARTY.
HOW DARE YOU CHALLENGE THE ACTUAL SITTING PRESIDENT AND THE MAN WHO ACTUALLY HAS DEFEATED TRUMP AND THE MAN WHO ACTUALLY DID LEGISLATE AND PUT GOOD POLICIES ACCORDING TO THE PARTY THROUGH CONGRESS.
WHAT DID IT TAKE TO ACTUALLY CHALLENGE HIM?
WHAT WAS THE DECISION AND WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO PRIMARY HIM SO TO SPEAK?
>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, I HAD SEEN HIS DECLINE BEGIN IN MID 2021 WHEN HE APPEARED IN FRONT OF US AT OUR DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS MEETINGS.
WHEN WE DECIDED TO RUN FOR REELECTION, IT WAS A SURPRISE TO MANY OF US, A DISAPPOINTMENT TO MANY.
NOT BECAUSE WE DON'T LOVE JOE BIDEN.
I AND MY COLLEAGUES DO.
HE IS A REMARKABLE MAN.
DID A FANTASTIC JOB IN HIS TEN YEAR AS PRESIDENT.
SAVED THIS COUNTRY IN MANY WAY, SHAPE AND FORM.
BUT IN AMERICAN POLITICS AND DEMOCRACY, WE DO NOT CORONATE KINGS AND QUEENS.
IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PERSONALITIES.
IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT PRAGMATISM AND WINNING, AND IT WAS CLEAR THAT WAS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
SO LIKE I SAID EARLIER, I SAW WHAT WAS GOING ON.
MOST OF MY COLLEAGUES WHO ARE RUNNING FOR REELECTION CANNOT TAKE THE PERSONAL RISK TO SAY THAT QUIET PART OUT LOUD.
AND I CALLED OTHER SITTING GOVERNORS WHO I THOUGHT WOULD BE EXCEPTIONAL CANDIDATES.
I MADE PUBLIC CALLS BEGINNING BACK IN 2022 FOR OTHERS TO JOIN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY.
BUT MY PARTY DID NOT WANT TO HOST A COMPETITIVE PRIMARY.
AND THAT'S WHY AT THE VERY END JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS BEFORE THE NEW HAMPSHIRE FILING DEADLINE IN OCTOBER OF '23, I DECIDED SOMEONE HAD TO DO IT, AND I DID IT MYSELF.
WHILE IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO STAND UP TO A PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN IN A MERE TWO WEEKS, ONCE AGAIN, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WHEN YOU'RE ON A MISSION OF PRINCIPLE.
I WAS TRYING TO CALL ATTENTION TO TRUTH.
I HAD HOPED THE PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE DEBATED ME BACK THEN.
I THINK WE WOULD HAVE DISCOVERED THE CHALLENGE THEN INSTEAD OF NOW.
BUT IT WORKED THAT MISSION WAS THE BEGINNING.
OTHERS STARTED TO RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH.
AND SLOWLY BUT SURELY, I THINK IT GAVE PERMISSION TO OTHERS TO JOIN ME.
AND HERE WE ARE TODAY WITH AN ENTIRELY NEW WORLD AND GREAT OPTIMISM AND EXCITEMENT THAT YOU COULD NOT EVEN FEEL AN OUNCE OF AS RECENTLY AS A FEW WEEKS AGO.
>> EXACTLY.
AS WE LED INTO YOUR INTERVIEW, WE SAID THAT THE RACE HAS BEEN TRANSFORMED.
YOU WANTED BIDEN TO STEP ASIDE.
IS KAMALA HARRIS YOUR CANDIDATE?
WOULD SHE HAVE BEEN HAD SHE NOT BEEN ANOINTED BY HIM?
>> WELL, I'LL TELL YOU, AT THE TIME, CHRISTIANE, VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS' NUMBERS WERE ACTUALLY WORSE THAN PRESIDENT BIDEN'S.
SO AT THIS TIME I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE SAID NO.
I WANTED TO SEE A COMPETITIVE PRIMARY.
I STILL BELIEVE THAT COMPETITION ULTIMATELY GENERATES BETTER OUTCOMES.
I WILL ALWAYS SPEAK THAT TRUTH.
AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR BOTH PARTIES TO PURSUE.
BUT IN THIS CASE, SHE IS ABSOLUTELY THE RIGHT CANDIDATE.
THE WAY THAT SHE MOBILIZED AND CONSOLIDATED SUPPORT AMONGST ALMOST EVERY DEMOCRAT IN THE COUNTRY WITHIN A MATTER OF LITERALLY A FEW DAYS I THINK IS A REMARKABLE DEMONSTRATION OF HER LEADERSHIP.
WHAT WE HAVE SEEN NOW THE MOVEMENT IN THE POLL, CHRISTIANE, IS I THINK DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A HISTORICAL PRECEDENT.
SO YES, SHE IS THE RIGHT CANDIDATE.
AND TIM WALZ, MY GOVERNOR IN MINNESOTA, WHO I BELIEVE WILL BE THE THIRD MINNESOTAN OF THE LAST SIX DEMOCRATIC VICE PRESIDENTS IS A REMARKABLY WONDERFUL CHOICE WHO IS GOING TO OPEN THE DOORS TO CONVERSATION WITH AMERICANS WHO HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND BY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OVER THE LAST NUMBER OF YEARS.
SO THE ANSWER IS ABSOLUTELY YES, BUT WITH A CAVEAT THAT COMPETITION IS IMPORTANT, PERIOD.
AND WE SHOULD ALWAYS PURSUE IT.
>> LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE ISSUES, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, THAT IS WHAT MATTERS IN THE END.
NOT JUST WINNING, BUT THEN WHAT DO YOU DO WITH IT.
SO PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL.
PEOPLE SAY ABOUT THE ECONOMY, ALTHOUGH MANY PEOPLE, ORDINARY PEOPLE HAVE SOME SAID THEY REALLY DON'T FEEL IT SO MUCH.
WHAT DOES KAMALA HARRIS HAVE TO DO ON THE ECONOMY?
AND DO YOU THINK IT'S THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE?
I ASK YOU THIS BECAUSE "THE WASHINGTON POST" EDITORIAL HAS SAID FOLLOWING HER ECONOMIC SPEECH ON FRIDAY THAT WE NEED REAL POLICIES, NOT GIMMICKS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK SHE HAS TO DO EVEN AT THIS CONVENTION TO MAKE VOTERS BELIEVE THAT SHE HAS A HANDLE ON THE ECONOMY?
>> WELL, I THINK THE FIRST THING SHE HAS TO DO, AND SHE WILL IS TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE HUMAN CONDITION DICTATES THAT SECURITY IS THE FUNDAMENTAL NEED IN THIS CASE OF EVERY AMERICAN.
ECONOMIC SECURITY, PHYSICAL SECURITY.
AND YOU MENTIONED EARLIER MANY PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING.
ABOUT 60% OF AMERICANS ARE LIVING PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK.
A BOOMING ECONOMY IS NOT ACCRUING TO AN OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF AMERICANS.
SHE WILL BE LISTENING, AS WILL TIM WALZ, AND SAME GOES WITH SECURITY.
NATIONAL SECURITY, BORDER SECURITY.
I DO BELIEVE DONALD TRUMP OPENED THAT DOOR FOR DEMOCRATS TO LISTEN TO WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO A LOT OF RURAL AMERICANS IN PARTICULAR THAT FEEL THAT THEY'VE BEEN LEFT BEHIND AND UNHEARD FOR A LONG TIME.
BUT DO I BELIEVE THAT THIS WILL HINGE ON ECONOMIC POLICY AND NATIONAL SECURITY POLICY?
ABSOLUTELY.
AND DO I THINK THAT KAMALA HARRIS AND TIM WALZ WILL PROPOSE WHAT I THINK THIS COUNTRY NEEDS?
I DO.
AND I THINK THEY'RE ON A LISTENING TOUR RIGHT NOW, AND I THINK THEY WILL CONVERT WHAT THEY HEAR INTO POLICY ACTION.
AND I LOOK FORWARD TO DOING ANYTHING I CAN TO HELP THEM TO THAT END.
>> AND WE WERE SHOWING SOME PICTURES OF PRESIDENT BIDEN WITH HER ON ONE OF THE RECENT JOINT APPEARANCES.
AND OF COURSE HE WILL HAVE OPENED THE CONFERENCE TONIGHT, THE CONVENTION.
AND IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A LEGACY BURNISHING THING, IT'S WHY HIS VICE PRESIDENT IS THE BEST PERSON TO LEAD THE UNITED STATES.
WHAT IS HE GOING TO HAVE TO SAY, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT HE WILL SAY TO THAT REGARD?
>> WHAT I EXPECT HE IS GOING TO SAY IS SHE WAS PROSECUTOR IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA.
WORKED HER TAIL OFF TO OPEN DOORS FOR HERSELF AGAINST A LOT OF ODDS.
SHE IS TOUGH.
SHE IS PRINCIPLED.
SHE IS EXPERIENCED.
THEN A UNITED STATES SENATOR AND I KNOW OF COURSE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
THERE ARE FEW AMERICANS BETTER PREPARED TO LEAD THIS COUNTRY.
AND AS I SAID IN TANDEM WITH TIM WALZ, I THINK A REMARKABLE TICKET.
AND I ALSO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE HONOR PRESIDENT BIDEN.
HE DIDN'T JUST SAVE THE UNITED STATES, HE RESTORED THE RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE REST OF THE WESTERN WORLD, INCLUDING IN EUROPE AND IN ASIA THAT HAD REALLY BEEN STRUGGLING AFTER THE TENURE OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.
HE SHOULD BE CELEBRATED FOR THAT.
HE HAS GIVEN HIS ENTIRE PROFESSIONAL CAREER TO THIS COUNTRY, AND I'M EXCITED TONIGHT THAT WE'LL BE HONORING A MAN OF GREAT INTEGRITY AND COMPASSION, A MAN WHO CALLED ME THE DAY I ENDED MY CAMPAIGN WITH VERY KIND WORDS, AND EVEN ENDED UP CALLING MY TWO DAUGHTERS TO DO THE SAME THING.
THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARY COMPASSIONATE MAN, HANDING THE BATON TO A WOMAN OF EQUAL COMPETENCY AND COMPASSION.
NOT TO MENTION THE NEXT GENERATION OF AMERICANS IS RISING THAT WAS MY ARGUMENT FROM DAY ONE.
>> YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT THIS EXTRAORDINARY HANDING OVER ONCE THE PRESIDENT REALIZED THAT AS HE SAID, THAT IT WAS NOT IN THE INTERESTS OF HIS PARTY TO CONTINUE LIKE THIS.
SO IT'S NOT BEEN -- IT'S UNAVOIDABLE WHEN YOU SEE A DEMOCRATIC LEADER, AND I MEAN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY LEADER WHO WAS TO ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES HAVING A GOOD PRESIDENCY, AND FINALLY BOWED TO PRESSURE FROM HIS OWN PARTY.
VERY DIFFERENT TO THE CULT OF PERSONALITY AS PEOPLE HAVE DESCRIBED THE CURRENT REPUBLICAN PARTY LEADERSHIP AND THEIR PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.
I MEAN, WE'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE WHO WOULDN'T DARE TELL TRUMP DON'T RUN, ALTHOUGH SOME OF HIS FORMER CERTAINLY NATIONAL SECURITY OFFICIALS SAY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO PUT THE CASE AS TO WHY HE IS NOT UP TO THE TASK.
BUT TALK TO ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT DO YOU THINK THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS SHOWN REAL DEMOCRATIC VALUES AND PRINCIPLES IN THIS CASE?
>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, I WOULD BE THE FIRST TO TELL YOU THAT I THINK WE HAVE SOME WORK TO DO TO THAT END BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THIS PRIMARY WAS RUN IN A FASHION THAT WOULD HAVE GENERATED A BETTER OUTCOME MORE QUICKLY.
NOW THAT SAID, THERE IS A MAJOR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
IF YOU LOOK AT HOW MY REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES WERE TREATED WHO HAD THE AUDACITY TO CALL OUT THE TRUTH ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, I THINK EIGHT OF THE TEN OF THOSE WHO VOTED TO IMPEACH HIM AFTER JANUARY 6th LOST THEIR JOBS.
NOW I WENT THROUGH SOME TOUGH TIMES AND WAS SOMEWHAT EX-COMMUNICATED FROM THE PARTY, BUT THE WAY I HAVE BEEN GREETED, WITH HANDSHAKES AND EVEN SOME APOLOGIES REALLY DEMONSTRATES HOW DIFFERENT THE PARTIES ARE.
WE MAKE SPACE AND PLACE FOR DISSENT.
HAKEEM JEFFRIES, I SAT AT HIS LEADERSHIP TABLE IN THE HOUSE DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMAN DURING ALL OF THIS TIME WHEN I WAS MAKING SOME ENEMIES WITHIN THE PARTY DURING MY RUN.
BUT HERE I AM BEING THOUGHTFULLY CELEBRATED AND WELCOMED BACK INTO THE FOLD BECAUSE DEMOCRATS DO ALLOW DISSENT, DISCUSSION, DEBATE AND DELIBERATION.
BUT TO YOUR POINT, YES, WE HAVE BOTH PARTIES IN THIS COUNTRY HAVE TO RETURN TO SOME OF THE KEY TENETS OF DEMOCRACY, AND ALSO AS I SAID EARLIER, BUT I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT JOE BIDEN.
I WAS TRYING TO BE PAUL REVERE, THE MAN WHO WARNED OF THE IMPENDING ATTACK HERE IN THE UNITED STATES DURING THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR.
GEORGE WASHINGTON, OF COURSE, THE ONLY AMERICAN PRESIDENT NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE PARTY AND THE ONLY ONE IN WORLD HISTORY WHO GAVE UP HIS POWER PROACTIVELY, VERY MUCH IN THE SAME SPIRIT THAT JOE BIDEN DID.
SO THAT'S THE BOOKEND, FROM PAUL REVERE TO GEORGE WASHINGTON, SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE.
BUT DEMOCRACY DOES NOT HAPPEN ON ITS OWN, AND WE HAVE TO INVEST.
AMERICANS HAVE TO PARTICIPATE.
ONE IN TEN VOTING IN PRIMARY ELECTIONS IS NOT SUSTAINABLE FOR A THRIVING DEMOCRACY.
THAT'S TRUE ALL AROUND THE WORLD.
MY CALL TO ACTION TO EVERYBODY WATCHING NO MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE IS BE A PARTICIPANT.
THAT'S WHY I GOT INVOLVED IN POLITICS.
MY CAREER WILL END HERE AT THE END OF THIS TERM.
IT WAS BEAUTIFUL.
IT WAS JOYFUL AND MEANINGFUL AND INSPIRATIONAL.
AND I HOPE I CAN USE A LITTLE BIT OF THAT JOY TO SPREAD TO OTHERS AROUND THE WORLD TO BE PARTICIPANTS AND KNOW THAT ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.
>> I'M GOING ASK YOU ABOUT THE REST, BUT YOU BROUGHT UP SEVERAL TIMES THE FACT THAT YOUR CAREER IN POLITICS IS ENDING.
IS IT REALLY?
AND IF SO, WHY?
IS IT BECAUSE YOU GOT SLAPPED AROUND WITH THIS AUDACIOUS COMPETITION AGAINST BIDEN OR WHAT?
YOU'VE BEEN PROVEN RIGHT SO TO SPEAK.
WHY GIVE UP NOW?
>> WELL, I'LL TELL YOU, CHRISTIANE, I MADE THAT DECISION WHEN IT WAS TOUGH, THAT IT SEEMED THAT THE PARTY HAD TURNED AGAINST ME.
AND I EXPECTED THAT.
I KNEW WHEN I MADE THIS DECISION IT WOULD LIKELY MEAN THE END OF THAT CAREER.
I BELIEVE IF I HAD RAN, I WOULD HAVE WON AGAIN.
BUT ONE OF MY PRINCIPLES IS TERM LIMITS AND ENSURING THAT WE CONSTANTLY HAVE NEW IDEAS AND PEOPLE RUNNING FOR OFFICE IN AMERICA.
I SERVED THREE TERMS.
THEY WERE EXTRAORDINARY, BEAUTIFUL DAYS AND PAINFUL DAYS.
BUT I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE ALWAYS ALLOW SPACE AND PLACE FOR THOSE OF GREAT POTENTIAL AND ASPIRATION AND COMPETENCY TO RUN FOR OFFICE.
AND I SERVE WITH WAY TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THERE FOR DECADES AND DECADES.
AND I THINK MODELING THE VERY BEHAVIOR WE WANT, I'M A BRIDGE BUILDER, I BELIEVE IN DECENCY AND RESPECT, I BELIEVE IN ONE TERM IN PUBLIC OFFICE.
THAT'S WHAT I'M DOING.
I NEVER SAY NEVER THERE MAY BE ANOTHER INTERSECTION IN THE FUTURE IN WHICH MY SKILLS AND AVAILABILITY MATCHES THE COUNTRY'S NEEDS.
BUT RIGHT NOW I'M HERE TO CELEBRATE SOMETHING IS THAT I GAVE A GOOD PART OF THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF OF MY LIFE, A LOT OF SWEAT AND TEARS TO, AND THAT IS TO CHANGE THIS TICKET.
AND HERE WE ARE, AND IT IS A BEAUTIFUL CELEBRATORY DAY.
>> AS YOU KNOW, PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD ARE WATCHING.
THEY'LL BE WATCHING THIS CONVENTION, PARTICULARLY ALLY, AND AS I SAID, ANTAGONISTS.
WHAT SHOULD THEY KNOW ABOUT A HARRIS PRESIDENCY WHEN IT COMES TO LET'S SAY POLICY IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
RIGHT NOW THE SECRETARY OF STATE THERE, HE IS THERE.
HE HAS SAID THIS MAY BE THE LAST BEST CHANCE TO GET THE HOSTAGES RELEASED AS PART OF A CEASEFIRE AND PRISONER SWAP.
IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT'S MOVING, BUT MAYBE IT IS.
WHAT SHOULD A HARRIS POLICY ON THE MIDDLE EAST BE?
>> I THINK A HARRIS POLICY ON THE MIDDLE EAST WILL BE A LITTLE BIT MORE NUANCED.
I KNOW THE VICE PRESIDENT TO BE A WOMAN OF BOTH GREAT STRENGTH, GREAT PRINCIPLE AND GREAT COMPASSION.
AND IF YOU'RE A HUMAN BEING, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO WATCH BOTH THE ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7th IN ISRAEL AND THE AFTERMATH OF THE HORRIFIC LOSS OF LIFE IN GAZA.
TWO THINGS CAN BE TRUE AT ONCE, CHRISTIANE.
WE CAN EMPATHIZE WITH BOTH.
I BELIEVE ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO EXIST.
I BELIEVE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS NOT LED ISRAEL IN THE MANNER WITH THE PRINCIPLES AND VALUES I SURELY WOULD LIKE TO SEE, AND I THINK MANY AMERICANS AND AROUND THE WORLD WOULD LIKE.
BUT WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ISRAEL IS CONSTANTLY UNDER THREAT, AND WE CAN DO TWO THINGS AT ONCE.
ENSURE THE SAFETY AND SECURITY OF ISRAEL AND INVEST IN THE SAFETY, SECURITY AND SELF-DETERMINATION OF PALESTINIANS.
I BELIEVE BOTH ARE IMPORTANT.
I THINK YOU'LL SEE A PRESIDENT HARRIS AND VICE PRESIDENT WALZ DO JUST THAT.
AND I WOULD ARGUE ALSO, CHRISTIANE, IT'S TIME FOR AN INTERNATIONAL MARSHALL PLAN OF SORTS TO FOR THE FIRST TIME REALLY INVEST IN A PALESTINIAN STATE WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE GULF STATES, THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD, HOPEFULLY EVEN IN COLLABORATION WITH CHINA, BECAUSE WHAT IS GOING ON THERE NOW IS NOT JUST A RISK TO ISRAEL AND TO PALESTINIANS, BUT TO THE ENTIRE WORLD, AND I THINK WE'LL SEE A PRESIDENT HARRIS WITH A WONDERFUL HEART AND AN EQUALLY OUTSTANDING HEAD AS WE APPROACH WHAT MAY BE THE LAST GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO BRING PEACE, PROSPERITY AND SECURITY TO A REGION THAT NEEDS IT.
AND I'LL JUST WRAP UP OF COURSE, WITH THE IRANIAN REGIME.
IRAN IS AN EXTRAORDINARY COUNTRY.
THE IRANIAN PEOPLE EXTRAORDINARY THEMSELVES.
BUT THIS REGIME IS ACCOUNTABLE FOR HORRIFIC LOSS OF LIFE OVER THE LAST NUMBER OF GENERATIONS.
CURRENTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR SO MANY OF THE TERROR ATTACKS IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND AROUND THE WORLD.
AND I CAN IT'S TIME FOR THE FREE WORLD AT LEAST TO UNIFY BEHIND A CHANGE, IF YOU WILL, AND ENSURE THAT BOTH THOSE IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND AROUND THE WORLD HAVE OPPORTUNITY TO LIVE IN PEACE AND SECURITY.
THAT'S WHAT WE'LL SEE FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION.
WE WILL NOT SEE THAT FROM DONALD TRUMP.
AND I THINK THAT'S FAIR.
I THINK WE SHOULD BE LISTENING TO HIS WORDS AND WATCHING HIS DEEDS.
AND THAT'S WHY I THINK THIS ELECTION IS SO IMPORTANT NOT JUST FOR THIS COUNTRY, BUT FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD.
>> AND BECAUSE THE ENTIRE WORLD IS WATCHING, I SAY THAT THE POLLS ARE TIGHTENING, AND SHE IS DOING BETTER, KAMALA HARRIS, THAN PREVIOUS POLLS HAD SHOWN.
BUT IT'S STILL VERY, VERY CLOSE.
AND THEY SAY EVEN IF DONALD TRUMP MANAGES TO FLIP ONE SWING STATE, THE WHOLE GAME COULD BE OVER FOR THE DEMOCRATS.
SO WHAT ARE THE RED FLAGS THAT YOU SEE?
WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN BETWEEN NOW AND NOVEMBER?
>> WELL, I'LL JUST REMIND INTERNATIONAL VIEWERS RIGHT NOW THAT WE DON'T RUN OUR PRESIDENTIAL CONTESTS ON A POPULAR VOTE.
WE HAVE THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE SYSTEM WHICH MEANS THERE ARE ABOUT SIX STATES IN THE UNITED STATES THAT WILL DICTATE THE OUTCOME OF THIS ELECTION.
AND HOW A HARRIS/WALZ TICKET PERFORMS IN MICHIGAN, WISCONSIN, PENNSYLVANIA, THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS.
DON'T LOOK AT THE NATIONAL POLLS.
LOOK AT THOSE SIX OR SO BATTLEGROUND POLLS.
AND THE MOVEMENT HAS BEEN EXTRAORDINARY JUST IN ONE MONTH, AS YOU JUST NOTED.
BUT THIS IS GOING TO BE A REAL DIFFICULT BATTLE IN THE NEXT 70 DAYS OR SO.
AND I DO BELIEF AS THE HONEYMOON WILL PROBABLY DRAW TO A CLOSE AFTER THE CONVENTION, POLICY WILL TAKE THE FRONT SEAT.
THE DEBATE WILL BE IMPORTANT.
I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CHOICE OF J.D.
VANCE WAS A HISTORIC MISTAKE FOR HIM.
I ALSO BELIEVE HIS DECISION TO DEBATE PRESIDENT BIDEN BEFORE THE DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION WILL GO DOWN IN AMERICAN HISTORY AS AN AWFUL MISTAKE, UNFORCED ERROR IF YOU WILL.
BUT WE ARE GOING TO SEE A VERY TIGHT RACE.
BUT I'M VERY EXCITED.
JUST THE ENERGY, CHRISTIANE, IN THE LAST THREE WEEKS, OUR BIGGEST RISK WAS ACTUALLY NOT DONALD TRUMP.
WE'RE FIGHTING THE COUCH, MEANING PEOPLE STAYING HOME ON ELECTION DAY.
AND I THINK THE MOVEMENT WE'RE SEEING NOW AND THE ENERGY, SILENT AMONGST YOUNG PEOPLE, AMONGST COMMUNITIES OF COLORS, AMONGST DISAFFECTED DEMOCRATS, INDEPENDENTS, MODERATE REPUBLICANS, I THINK WE'RE GOING SEE AN EXTRAORDINARY OUTCOME IN NOVEMBER THAT MIGHT JUST BE A DEMOCRATIC WHITE HOUSE SENATE AND HOUSE, WHICH WOULD BE AN EXTRAORDINARY CHANGE FROM WHAT WE WERE FEELING JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO.
>> BOY, OH, BOY, WE WILL COME BACK TO YOU AFTER NOVEMBER ELECTION.
THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED, CONGRESSMAN.
THANKS FOR JOINING US.
AND ONE OF BIDEN'S LEGACIES, OF COURSE IS SUPPORTING UKRAINE AND DEFYING RUSSIA'S TAKEOVER ATTEMPT.
THINGS WERE NOT GOING WELL UNTIL A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO AND UKRAINE'S LIGHTNING STRIKE INTO RUSSIA.
PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY SAYS THEIR FOOTHOLD IN THE KURSK REGION IS GETTING STRONGER JUST AS HIS FORCES BLEW UP ANOTHER BRIDGE THERE.
NICK PATON WALSH GOT RARE ON-THE-GROUND ACCESS TO THE AREA.
HE WAS ACCOMPANIED BY THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY WHO DID REVIEW THE VIDEO FOR OPERATIONAL SECURITY REASONS.
THEY HAD NO EDITORIAL CONTROL AT ALL, AND HERE IS THE REPORT.
>> Reporter: THIS WAS NEVER IN PUTIN'S PLAN, BUT STILL INTO RUSSIA WE CROSS WITH UKRAINIAN FORCES MOVING FORWARD.
THROUGH THE BORDER POST THEY DESTROYED IN THEIR SURPRISE ASSAULT TEN DAYS AGO.
AS WE GET CLOSER TOWARDS SUDZHA, WE CAN SEE MORE SMOKE ON THE HORIZON.
BUT STILL, IT'S BIZARRELY CALM ON THIS ROAD.
PAUSE A MOMENT IN THESE OPEN FIELDS AND REMEMBER THIS IS THE COLD WAR SUPERPOWER UNGUARDED, OPEN, AND NEVER EXPECTING WHEN RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN LAUNCHED HIS WAR OF CHOICE TWO YEARS AGO TO BE INVADED BACK.
A RUSSIAN DEAD SOLDIER STILL IN THE ROAD.
UKRAINE ONLY CLAIMED HERE A DAY AGO.
NOT EVEN THE STATUE OF LENIN IS UNSCATHED HERE THIS UKRAINIAN ASSAULT SO PERSISTENT AND RUSSIA DESPITE ITS SENSE OF HISTORY, IT SORT OF PASSED AS BEING IMPREGNABLE, COMPLETELY UNABLE TO PUSH THE UKRAINIANS OUT HERE.
A SOUND OF SMALL ARMS FIRE.
SO A BID FOR THE RUSSIANS TO PUSH BACK, BUT IT SIMPLY ISN'T WORKING, AND THE HUMILIATION FOR PUTIN ENDURES.
DAYS AGO LOCALS HAD HONORED THEIR WAR DEAD, BUT NONE SINCE THE NAZIS HAD LED RUSSIA TO FACE OCCUPATION.
YOU CAN SEE THE DAMAGE THAT'S BEEN DONE TO THIS STREET HERE FROM THE INTENSE FIGHT.
STILL CLEARLY ACTIVE FIGHTING HAPPENING HERE.
A SIGN IN THE BASEMENT HERE, LIVE PEACEFUL PEOPLE, NO SOLDIERS.
INA, 68 SAYS 60 CIVILIANS ARE THERE.
JUST LIKE WE'VE SEEN IN MULTIPLE UKRAINIAN TOWNS OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS HERE, THE LOCALS TRYING TO FIND SOME SHELTER FROM THE WAR AROUND THEM.
>> HE SHOWS HIS GRAY.
IN THE DARK, HUNTED LIKE SO MANY UKRAINIANS NOW, THE INFIRMED, ISOLATED BEGGING FOR CALM.
>> Reporter: DAY, NIGHT, LIGHT, DARK, NEWS OTHER BLACKOUT ALL BLUR INTO ONE.
>> Reporter: THIS MAN IS OVER 90 AND WANTS TO LEAVE TO UKRAINE, BUT THERE IS NO ROUTE OUT, HE SAYS.
>> Reporter: AGAIN, ORDINARY STREETS THAT NEVER GUESSED OF THEIR DESTRUCTION OR NEWFOUND FAME DAYS AGO.
VACANT IN THE STORM AROUND THEM.
NORMAL LIFE HERE VANISHED IN A HURRY, LEAVING STORE FLOORS AS BARRACKS.
AND NINA, 74, OUT LOOKING FOR A PHARMACY FOR HER MEDICATION.
>> Reporter: IT IS A WAR THAT KEEPS TURNING THE WORLD ORDER ON ITS HEAD, WHERE WRECKAGE THAT LINED UKRAINE'S FIELDS NOW HAUNTS RUSSIA'S.
UKRAINIANS LEARN TO PAINT OVER THEIR ROAD SIGNS TO CONFUSE THE INVADERS, BUT STILL HERE THE SIGNS ASK GOD TO PROTECT AND SAVE RUSSIA.
THAT WAS PUTIN'S JOB.
IT IS NOT CLEAR WHEN HE IS COMING BACK.
>> NICK PATON WALSH REPORTING THERE.
>>> A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO REPRODUCTIVE FREEDOM IS A KEY BATTLEFIELD BETWEEN DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, AND VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS HAS BEEN THE ADMINISTRATION'S POINT PERSON ON THIS EVER SINCE ROE V. WADE WAS OVERTURNED TWO YEARS AGO, AND SHE VOWS TO RESTORE IT IF ELECTED.
IN GAMBIA, WEST AFRICA, A DIFFERENT STRUGGLE OVER WOMEN AND THE RIGHT TO THEIR OWN BODIES IS PLAYING OUT.
A BILL SEEKING TO REVERSE THE 2015 BAN ON FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION WAS RECENTLY REJECTED BY THE NATION'S PARLIAMENT, THANKS TO INTENSIVE LOBBYING AND CAMPAIGNING FROM HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS.
NEARLY 75% OF GAMBIAN WOMEN BETWEEN THE AGES OF 15 AND 49 HAVE ENDURED THIS BRUTAL PRACTICE, INCLUDING OUR NEXT GUEST, JAHA DUKUREH.
SHE IS THE FOUNDER OF SAFE HANDS FOR GIRLS, AN NGO SUPPORTING SURVIVORS, AND SHE IS A U.N. WOMAN AMBASSADOR FOR AFRICA.
SHE IS JOINING ME LIVE NOW FROM NEW YORK.
JAHA DUKUREH, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> FIRST AND FOREMOST WE NEED TO CELEBRATE WHAT YOU ALL MANAGED TO MAKE HAPPEN IN YOUR HOME COUNTRY, GAMBIA, AND THAT IS NOT ALLOWING THE FORCES OF WHATEVER CULTURE TO OVERTURN THIS BAN ON FGM.
HOW DIFFICULT WAS THAT?
WHAT DID YOU HAVE TO DO TO CONVINCE PARLIAMENT AND THE PEOPLE THAT THESE RIGHTS SHOULD NOT BE OVERTURNED?
>> I MEAN, I HAVE DEDICATED MOST OF MY ADULT LIFE WORKING ON THE ISSUE OF FGM.
AS A SURVIVOR AND SOMEONE WHO NOT ONLY COMES FROM THE GAMBIA, BUT I COME FROM A TRIBE THAT PRACTICES FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION 100% OF THE TIME.
AND I FEEL TO BRING CHANGE INTO OUR COMMUNITIES IS IMPORTANT THAT WOMEN LIKE ME, WHO HAVE LIVED EXPERIENCES AS WELL AS KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH MEMBERS OF OUR COMMUNITY FROM OUR NATIONAL ASSEMBLY MEMBERS, AND FOR US, WE HAVE TO WORK WITH MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT IN THE GAMBIA.
ONE KEY PERSON WAS OUR DEPUTY SPEAKER WHO HELPED US LOBBY HIS COLLEAGUES.
BUT NOT ONLY, THAT WE HAD TO WORK WITH RELIGIOUS LEADERS.
WE HAD TO GET SURVIVORS COME OUT AND SHARE THEIR STORY.
AND WE HAD TO MOBILIZE ACROSS THE COUNTRY BECAUSE THIS WAS AN ISSUE THAT WAS HIGHLY POLITICIZED, AND, YOU KNOW, TO THINK THAT IN 2024, WE'RE DISCUSSING WHETHER TO CUT PARTS OF A WOMAN'S GENITAL IS STILL SOMETHING THAT I CAN'T BELIEVE I FOUND MYSELF IN THIS FIGHT NEARLY 12 YEARS AFTER I FOUNDED MY ORGANIZATION.
>> JAHA, WE JUST NEED TO SAY THAT FGM WAS FIRST BANNED IN THE GAMBIA IN 2015.
BUT AS YOU SAY, CASES REMAIN HIGH.
73% OF WOMEN AND GIRLS ARE SURVIVORS.
I MEAN, HONESTLY, IT SENDS YOUR HEAD SPINNING.
SO I WANT TO FIRST ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE, BECAUSE THAT TOO IS JUST -- YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE IT IF YOU DIDN'T HEAR FROM YOU YOURSELF.
WHAT HAPPENED AT THE TINIEST, YOUNGEST OF AGE?
>> SO WHEN I WAS ONE WEEK OLD IN MY TRIBE IN THE GAMBIA, WE'RE ONE OF THE ONLY TRIBES THAT PRACTICE FGM WHEN A GIRL IS.
WHEN I WAS ONE WEEK OLD, I WENT THROUGH FGM.
BUT I ALSO WENT THROUGH FGM WHERE THE VAGINA IS SEALED SO THAT WAY THEY CAN PREVENT YOU FROM HAVING SEX UNTIL YOU GET I DIDN'T KNOW I WENT THROUGH FGM BECAUSE AT THAT AGE I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXPERIENCE.
BUT WHEN I GOT MARRIED AT 15, IT WAS WHEN I FOUND OUT THAT I HAD ACTUALLY BEEN SUBJECTED TO FGM BECAUSE MY MARRIAGE COULDN'T BE CONSUMMATED UNTIL THE SEAL WAS TAKEN OFF.
>> SORRY, YOU GOT MARRIED AT HOW OLD?
>> I WAS 15 YEARS OLD WHEN I GOT MARRIED.
>> TO WHO?
WAS THIS A MARRIAGE OF CHOICE?
>> NO, IT WASN'T A MARRIAGE OF CHOICE.
HERE IN NEW YORK, ACTUALLY, MY MOTHER DIED WHEN I WAS 14, AND THEN I WAS BROUGHT TO NEW YORK TO MARRY A GUY THAT WAS MUCH OLDER THAN ME, SOMEONE THAT WAS SELECTED BY MY FAMILY.
IT WAS IN A MARRIAGE THAT I WANTED.
AND THAT'S WHAT FRUSTRATES ME ABOUT THE WORK WE'RE DOING IN GAMBIA.
A LOT OF TIMES THEY CLAIM WE'RE INFLUENCED BY THE WEST AND EVERYTHING THAT WE SAY, IT'S TRUE.
WHEN THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT THIS IS SOMETHING -- I REMEMBER THE DOCTOR THAT TOOK OFF THE SEAL WHEN I WAS 15 YEARS OLD HERE IN NEW YORK CITY.
I HAVE THE PICTURES OF MY WEDDING DAY HERE IN NEW YORK CITY.
>> WE SHOWED.
>> EXACTLY.
YEAH.
>> CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IS THE ORIGIN OF THIS PRACTICE?
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, LOTS OF WELL MEANING HUMANITARIANS CALL IT CULTURAL HERITAGE.
OVERS SAY IT'S A RELIGIOUS PRACTICE.
WHAT IS IT?
WHY DOES IT HAPPEN?
THERE ARE A LOT OF STAKEHOLDERS, INCLUDING SOME OF THE WOMEN WHO PERFORM IT.
IT'S A SOURCE OF INCOME FOR THEM.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
I MEAN, BEING A SOURCE OF INCOME IS WHY WE INSIST ON PROVIDING ALTERNATIVE LIVELIHOODS TO WOMEN.
BUT CULTURE, SLAVERY USED TO BE A CULTURE.
BUT AS HUMAN BEINGS WITH MORALITY, WE KNOW THAT IT'S WRONG.
AN BECAUSE OF THAT, WE DECIDED TO ABOLISH IT.
FOOT BINDING USED TO BE A CULTURE IN CHINA.
I AGREE FEMALE MUTILATION IS CULTURAL.
BUT IN GAMBIA, PLACES LIKE SOMALIA, PEOPLE CLAIM IT'S A RELIGIOUS PRACTICE WHEN IN FACT IT'S NOT.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PRACTICE OF FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION, IT HAPPENS IN AFRICA, IN ASIA AND IT HAPPENS IN PARTS OF THE MIDDLE EAST.
BUT IN PREDOMINANTLY MUSLIM COUNTRIES LIKE THE GAMBIA WHERE SOME RELIGIOUS LEADERS, I WOULD SAY EXTREME RELIGIOUS LEADERS CLAIM THIS IS A RELIGIOUS PRACTICE, BUT YOU LOOK AT OTHER PLACES LIKE THE UAE FOR INSTANCE, QATAR, AND THERE IS A LOT OF NORTH AFRICAN COUNTRIES WHERE FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION IS NOT A THING.
SO I WOULD SAY IN THE PLACES WHERE IT IS PRACTICED, IT IS A CULTURAL PRACTICE THAT HAS BEEN PASSED DOWN FOR GENERATIONS.
>> LOOK, YOU TALKED ABOUT NORTH AFRICA.
CNN DID AN AMAZING, AMAZING REPORT ACTUALLY 30 YEARS AGO NOW OF A YOUNG GIRL WHO THIS WAS HAPPENING TO AND CNN HAD ACCESS.
AND WE'RE GOING TO SHOW YOU AND AIR JUST A LITTLE PIECE OF IT WHICH WAS AFTER THE BRUTAL CUTTING, AND HER REACTION AFTER IT.
SHE WAS ABOUT 10 YEARS OLD, THIS LITTLE GIRL.
"DADDY, DADDY" SHE VEHEMENCE SCREAMS.
THERE IS A SIN ON ALL OF YOU.
HER FAMILY FEARS WITHOUT CIRCUMCISION, SHE'LL BECOME SEXUALLY PROMISCUOUS.
THE BELIEVES IT'S PART OF ISLAM, BUT OTHERS DISAGREE.
IT'S ALMOST UNHEARD OF IN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES.
"I WANT YOU TO KNOW, DADDY, THAT I DIDN'T WANT TO BE CIRCUMCISED, AND YOU DID IT TO ME" SHE SAID.
"DON'T BE A BRAT," THE GRANDMOTHER CALLS.
"IT'S OVER, SAYS THE FATHER.
BE BRAVE, NEGLA, BE BRAVE."
>> GOSH, TO THIS DAY, IT'S HARD TO WATCH THAT.
AND IT BECAME ILLEGAL IN EGYPT WHERE THAT TOOK PLACE IN 2008.
AND AT THE TIME, FGM THERE MADE UP A QUARTER OF ALL THE WORLD'S CASES.
BUT THERE HAS SINCE BEEN A SHARP DOWNTURN, SOME PROGRESS THERE.
CASES DOWN ALMOST 30% SINCE THEN, 30 YEARS AGO.
BUT SHE WAS BLAMING HER PARENTS.
DID YOU HAVE THAT SITUATION?
WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL YOUR PARENTS OR YOUR FATHER AS SHE DID THAT THIS WAS NOT SOMETHING YOU WANTED?
>> WELL, I DID NOT -- >> AFTERWARDS.
YOU WERE ONE WEEK OLD.
>> EXACTLY.
I MEAN, AS AN ADULT, I DID HAVE THAT CONVERSATION WITH MY DAD.
BUT EGYPT ACTUALLY PLAYED A HUGE ROLE IN US MAINTAINING THE BAN IN THE GAMBIA.
THE CIVIL SOCIETY COALITION IN THE GAMBIA THAT I WORKED WITH, WE TOOK OUR NATIONAL ASSEMBLY MEMBERS TO EGYPT SO THAT WAY THEY CAN LEARN FROM THE EGYPT EXPERIENCE.
BUT LOFT GIRLS GLOBALLY, 230 MILLION ARE LIVING WITH THE PRACTICE OF FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION.
MANY DO NOT GET A CHOICE IN WHETHER THIS HAPPENS TO THEM OR NOT, AND THEY NEVER GET AN APOLOGY.
AND CONSTANTLY LIVING WITH PEOPLE DIMINISHING THEIR PAIN AND SAYING THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE ACCEPTABLE WHEN IN FACT IT'S NOT.
>> INTERESTINGLY, I READ THAT YOUR OWN FATHER IS A PROMINENT IMAM, AND YOU MANAGED TO CONVINCE HIM AGAINST FGM.
THAT WHAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE REALLY?
>> WELL, MY DAD LOVES ME, BUT IT'S GOING TO TAKE WOMEN LIKE US FROM THE COMMUNITIES.
YOU CANNOT IMPORT SOLUTIONS INTO A COMMUNITY AND ACCEPT CHANGE.
IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU WORK WITH PEOPLE LIKE US WHO CAN STAND UP AND SAY THAT BECAUSE WE HAVE EXPERIENCED THIS, WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT FEELS LIKE.
AND WE ARE URGING AND PLEADING WITH OUR COMMUNITIES.
AND WE HAVE TO DO OUR ADVOCACY IN A VERY RESPECTFUL MANNER BECAUSE WE'RE DEALING WITH A VERY CULTURALLY SENSITIVE ISSUE.
SO A LOT OF TIMES I DO HAVE SOME EMPATHY, ESPECIALLY FOR THE WOMEN WHO ARE SURVIVORS WHO ARE SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY WILL CONTINUE FGM BECAUSE THEY'RE ALSO VICTIMS OF THIS PRACTICE.
AND I THINK EDUCATION IS CRITICAL IN EVERYTHING THAT WE DO.
>> AND DO YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING?
WE'VE GOT 10 SECONDS LEFT.
>> IT IS, BUT, YOU KNOW, DEVELOPMENT AND YEAH, THE RESOURCES HAVE TO MATCH.
>> JAHA DUKUREH, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.
>>> AND WE RETURN NOW TO OUR TOP STORY, WITH DEMOCRATS GETTING READY TO OFFICIALLY NOMINATE KAMALA HARRIS AS THE PARTY'S PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE.
IN A RECENT ARTICLE, "WASHINGTON POST" REPORTER LIZ GOODWIN EXPLORED HOW THE VICE PRESIDENT'S ROLE ON SEVERAL POWERFUL SENATE COMMITTEES SHAPE HER TODAY.
SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO EXPLAIN ALL OF THAT.
>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.
LIZ GOODWIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> YOU STARTED COVERING KAMALA HARRIS WHEN SHE FIRST WENT TO THE SENATE.
WHAT ABOUT HER CAUGHT YOUR EYE?
WHY DID YOU START FOCUSING ON HER IN PARTICULAR?
>> SHE REALLY STOOD OUT AT THE TIME.
A LOT OF TIMES FRESHMEN SENATORS, THEY'RE SORT OF NERVOUS.
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THEY'VE BEEN ON THE NATIONAL STAGE.
AND THAT WAS TRUE OF KAMALA HARRIS AS WELL, BUT SHE JUST DIDN'T SEEM TO HAVE THE SAME CAUTION OR NERVES THAT A LOT OF FRESHMAN SENATORS HAD.
SHE IMMEDIATELY SPOKE AT THE WOMEN'S MARCH.
SHE HAD THIS VERY HIGH PROFILE FROM DAY ONE, AND PEOPLE WERE ALREADY TALKING ABOUT HER AS A POTENTIAL PRESIDENTIAL CONTENDER.
SO JUST THAT AURA OF SORT OF GLAMOUR AND DISCUSSION AROUND HER MADE HER REALLY STAND OUT.
>> I'M WONDERING IF IN PART SHE STOOD OUT BECAUSE SHE WAS ELECTED TO THE SENATE THE SAME YEAR DONALD TRUMP WAS ELECTED TO THE PRESIDENCY.
BUT I'M WONDERING IF IN PART THE ATTENTION WAS FOCUSED ON HER BECAUSE SHE WAS SEEN EVEN THEN AS THE ANTI-TRUMP.
SHE WAS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT -- OF WHAT DONALD TRUMP PRESENTED HIMSELF AS WHEN HE BECAME PRESIDENT.
DO YOU THINK THAT'S KIND OF PART OF IT?
>> FOR SURE.
I THINK KAMALA HARRIS GETTING ELECTED THE SAME DAY AS DONALD TRUMP REALLY WHEN SHE WAS EXPECTING TO BE SERVING WITH THE FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT, RIGHT?
SHE BECAME THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN ELECTED IN CALIFORNIA TO THE SENATE, AND SHE THOUGHT THERE WAS GOING TO BE THIS OTHER BARRIER-BREAKING LIBERAL WOMAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
AND INSTEAD DONALD TRUMP IS ELECTED.
LIBERALS ARE SHOCKED.
I MEAN EVERYONE WAS SHOCKED BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT THE POLLING HAD PREDICTED.
BUT LIBERALS WERE ALSO VERY CONCERNED.
THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS GOING TO BE LIKE.
AND THEY WERE REALLY LOOKING TO NEW LEADERS IN THE PARTY TO GUIDE THEM THROUGH THAT MOMENT.
AND KAMALA HARRIS BECAME ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE INCREDIBLY QUICKLY.
>> SO HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?
>> SO I THINK ONE THING THAT HARRIS CAME EQUIPPED WITH AS A FRESHMAN SENATOR WAS HER RHETORICAL ABILITY, HER SPEAKING SKILLS.
THEY WERE JUST, YOU KNOW, ABOVE AVERAGE, TO SAY THE LEAST, FOR SOMEONE SO NEW TO THE NATIONAL STAGE.
AND IN THE SENATE, SHE REALLY MADE HER NAME WITH THESE COMMITTEE HEARINGS WHERE SHE WOULD BE QUESTIONING TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS IN A VERY AGGRESSIVE STYLE THAT SHE LEARNED IN COURTROOMS, RIGHT.
AND IT REALLY MADE HER STAND OUT.
SO EVEN THOUGH SHE WOULD BE THE LAST PERSON TO ASK QUESTIONS BECAUSE SHE WAS THE NEWEST SENATOR, BY THEN IT'S VERY HARD TO MAKE ANY NEWS.
EVERYONE HAS ALREADY ASKED ALL THE GOOD QUESTIONS.
BUT SHE REALLY MADE A POINT TO THINK ABOUT HOW SHE COULD ATTACK SOME QUESTIONS THAT HADN'T BEEN ASKED YET.
SHE PREPARED VERY LENGTHY PREPARATION SESSIONS.
SHE REALLY TOOK THAT PART OF THE JOB SERIOUSLY, AND IT PAID OFF BECAUSE IT WOULD LEAD TO THESE SORT OF VIRAL CLIPS OF HER QUESTIONING PEOPLE LIKE JEFF SESSIONS OR BRETT KAVANAUGH.
AND I THINK THAT ALSO KIND OF LAUNCHED HER MUCH MORE QUICKLY THAN YOUR AVERAGE SENATOR OR POLITICIAN.
>> WHAT WAS HER REPUTATION WHEN SHE WAS SAN FRANCISCO DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND CALIFORNIA ATTORNEY GENERAL?
>> YEAH, I THINK PEOPLE THOUGHT OF HER AS, YOU KNOW, A FORCE AND HAVING A LOT OF CHARISMA.
SHE ALREADY HAD THAT REPUTATION RUNNING STATEWIDE IN CALIFORNIA.
HER CHIEF OF STAFF IN THE SENATE CAME WITH HER FROM THE AG'S OFFICE.
AND HE SAID SOMETHING THAT REALLY STOOD OUT TO HIM ABOUT HER ALWAYS IS THAT SHE CAN REALLY READ A ROOM.
SO SHE HAS A LOT OF EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE, WHICH NOT ALL POLITICIANS DO, SURPRISINGLY.
IT WAS A BIG CHANGE FOR HER FROM BEING AG, BECAUSE YOU'RE RUNNING THIS BIG OFFICE.
YOU'RE IN CHARGE.
YOU'RE MAKING THESE DECISIONS, VERY HIGH-LEVEL DECISIONS.
AND IN THE SENATE, YOU'RE ONE OF 100.
AND EVERYONE SORT OF SEES THEMSELVES AS A STAR.
THERE IS A LOT OF BIG PERSONALITIES, AND YOU'RE THE LOWEST ON THE TOTEM POLE AS A FRESHMAN IN PARTICULAR.
AND THAT WAS A TOUGH SHIFT FOR HER FROM BEING AN EXECUTIVE TO A LEGISLATOR.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS I THOUGHT WAS REALLY INSIGHTFUL IF YOUR PIECE IS YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW SHE WAS USED TO A VERY HIGH LEVEL OF PREPARATION FOR BEING IN COURT.
AND GIVEN ALL THE THINGS THAT ARE THROWN AT YOU IN THE CONGRESS, THE SCHEDULE, THE COMMITTEES, THAT ISN'T POSSIBLE.
I THOUGHT THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING THAT SHE FOUND THAT A SOURCE OF FRUSTRATION.
BUT BEYOND THAT, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER WAYS THAT SHE ADAPTED TO THAT?
>> YEAH, SHE DEFINITELY STRUGGLED WITH WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THIS LEVEL OF PREPARATION.
THE FACT THAT YOU COULDN'T KNOW EVERYTHING ANYMORE, BECAUSE THE ISSUE SET THAT YOU'RE GIVEN AS A SENATOR IS JUST ENDLESS.
SHE TOOK MORE NATURALLY TO BEING IN THESE COMMITTEES AND ASKING QUESTIONS AND DEMANDING ACCOUNTABILITY, BECAUSE THAT WAS REALLY ALREADY IN HER SKILL SET.
WHEN IT CAME TO LEGISLATING, SHE WAS ONLY IN THE SENATE FOR FOUR YEARS, AND SHE WAS IN THE MINORITY THE WHOLE TIME.
SO THAT'S USUALLY NOT A GOOD ATMOSPHERE FOR PRODUCING BIG BIPARTISAN DEALS OR THINGS OF THAT NATURE.
BUT EVEN FOR THAT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES, SHE DIDN'T SEEM AS INTERESTED IN LEGISLATING.
, AIDES SAY AND FELLOW SENATORS SAY.
SHE DID MANAGE TO GET THROUGH SOME PIECES OF LEGISLATION AND PUT OUT HER OWN AGENDA, BUT IT DIDN'T SEEM TO BE HER PASSION, ESSENTIALLY, IS WHAT PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR HER SAY.
>> WHAT WAS HER PASSION?
WHAT IS HER PASSION, AT LEAST AS FAR AS YOU CAN GLEAN FROM THE WORK SHE DID IN THE SENATE?
>> I WOULD SAY THESE MOMENTS OF HOLDING TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS ACCOUNTABLE WAS MUCH MORE HER PASSION.
LIKE THE AMOUNT OF PREP THAT SHE WOULD PUT INTO IT WAS REALLY ABOVE AND BEYOND EVEN FOR THE SENATE, FOR THE BRETT KAVANAUGH HEARING SHE HAD HER USUAL STAFFERS PREPPING HER.
AND THEN THEY ALSO BROUGHT IN SUPREME COURT CLERKS, BECAUSE SHE KNEW THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO REALLY VET QUESTIONS AND THINK ABOUT HOW SOMEONE LIKE BRETT KAVANAUGH WOULD ANSWER THEM.
SO SHE REALLY SPENT A TON OF ENERGY IN MAKING SURE THAT SHE WAS COMING TO THOSE COMMITTEES READY, AND READY TO SORT OF MAKE NEWS AND BREAK GROUND.
I THINK SHE ALSO FORMED RELATIONSHIPS WITH FELLOW SENATORS THAT IS HELPING HER NOW.
A LOT OF THEM, MOST OF THEM CAME OUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID HE WAS STEPPING ASIDE TO SUPPORT HER.
AND I THINK THAT HAVING THAT WELL OF SUPPORT IS HELPING HER NOW.
>> AND WHAT ABOUT WITH HER REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES?
THEY KIND OF IMPLIED THAT SHE WASN'T REALLY INTERESTED IN LEGISLATING.
THAT WAS KIND OF THE THROUGH-LINE OF THE COMMENTS THAT REPUBLICANS MADE ABOUT HER.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO SAY?
>> YEAH, I THINK JUST BECAUSE SHE WAS THERE FOR SUCH A SHORT TIME BEFORE SHE RAN FOR PRESIDENT, THAT GAVE PEOPLE THE IMPRESSION THAT WHAT SHE WAS DOING THOSE FIRST TWO YEARS WAS MORE POSITIONING FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL RUN THAN TRYING TO GET THINGS DONE.
SO, FOR EXAMPLE, SHE HAD SIGNED ON TO BERNIE SANDERS' MEDICARE FOR ALL BILL WHICH SHE LATER SAID SHE DID NOT SUPPORT.
SHE BACKED OFF OF THAT.
BUT THERE WERE KIND OF THESE LITMUS TEST ISSUES THAT WERE GOING ON THAT WERE LATER GOING TO FEED INTO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, AND THE DEMOCRATS WERE VERY MUCH IN A CONVERSATION WITH THEMSELVES ABOUT CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, ABOUT HEALTH CARE, ABOUT IMMIGRATION THAT HAD NO BEARING IN REALITY AT ALL BECAUSE IT WAS A UNIFIED REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME.
SO I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY KIND OF FAIR TO SAY THAT SHE WAS LOCKED IN THAT KIND OF CONVERSATION FOR MUCH OF HER TIME IN THE SENATE AND DIDN'T REALLY -- IT WASN'T GOING TO LEAD TO ANY LEGISLATION BECAUSE OF THE DIVIDED GOVERNMENT.
>> SO NOW GOING TO WHERE HER STINT AS VICE PRESIDENT.
THE CRITICISM OF HER AS VICE PRESIDENT, AND THAT'S NOT JUST ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, YOU KNOW, AS SORT OF ATTACK LINES, BUT ALSO SOME OF THE REPORTERS WHO KIND OF COVERED HER AS VICE PRESIDENT HAVE SAID THAT SHE NEVER REALLY LOCKED IN TO ANYTHING THAT SHE COULD IDENTIFY AS A SUCCESS.
THE ARGUMENT IS THAT SHE HASN'T REALLY IDENTIFIED WHAT SHE WOULD DO AS AN EXECUTIVE.
DO YOU THINK THAT'S FAIR, BASED ON YOUR COVERAGE OF HER IN THE SENATE?
>> I DO THINK THAT WOULD BE A FAIR WAY THE DESCRIBE SOME OF HER SENATE YEARS AS WELL.
BUT IT'S ALSO WITH THE BIG CAVEAT THAT IT WAS ONLY FOUR YEARS.
SO MOST PEOPLE DEVELOP A SENATE RECORD AT LEAST OVER SIX YEARS, RIGHT.
AND MUCH LENGTHIER THAN THAT FOR MOST OF THE PEOPLE I COVER.
AND IT REALLY TAKES A WHILE TO GET SETTLED YOUR HONOR COMMITTEE AND FIND YOUR INTEREST AREAS AND BUILD THOSE RELATIONSHIPS.
IT REALLY TAKES A LOT OF RELATIONSHIP BUILDING TO GET ANYTHING LIKE SUBSTANTIVE DONE BIPARTISAN.
SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S FAIR TO SAY SHE DIDN'T REALLY DO MUCH.
SHE DIDN'T GET ANY MAJOR LAW PASSED DURING HER TIME, BUT I WAS ALSO FOUR YEARS WHEN SHE WAS IN THE MINORITY.
SO IT'S HARD TO SAY WHAT THAT WOULD HAVE LOOKED LIKE HAD SHE HAD A FULL SENATE CAREER.
THAT SAID, HER AIDES SAID IT WASN'T REALLY HER HAPPY PLACE ANY WAY.
SHE KIND OF WANTED TO BE BACK IN THE EXECUTIVE CHAIR WHICH SHE WAS AS VICE PRESIDENT.
AND WHEN YOU'RE VICE PRESIDENT IT'S MORE ABOUT BEING PRAGMATIC, TRYING TO MANAGE THINGS WELL, TRYING TO MAKE SMALL IMPROVEMENTS ON THE MARGINS AS AN EXECUTIVE.
AND I THINK THAT'S A BETTER FIT FOR HER SORT OF STYLE.
>> WAS HARRIS EVER FRUSTRATED BY WHAT SOME PEOPLE WOULD SEE AS HER LACK OF VISIBILITY IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?
JUST OVERALL, YOU KNOW, IS THERE A SENSE THAT SHE WAS NOT THE KEY PLAYER THAT SHE COULD HAVE BEEN, OR THAT MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE JOE BIDEN WAS IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION?
>> TO MY KNOWLEDGE, I DON'T THINK SHE FELT THAT SHE WANTED TO PLAY MORE OF A ROLE ON THE HILL SPECIFICALLY, THAT SHE WANTED TO BE, YOU KNOW, MORE OF THAT ROLE THAT BIDEN HAD WHERE HE WOULD GO OVER THERE AND NEGOTIATE THESE BIG BILLS.
I DON'T GET THE SENSE SHE WANTED TO BE THERE HASHING OUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, FOR EXAMPLE.
AND SHE WAS ABLE TO KIND OF PICK HER SPOTS WHEN IT CAME TO BEING THE VOICE OF RESPONDING TO ROE V. WADE, WHICH NOW, EVEN THOUGH SHE WASN'T GETTING THAT MUCH ATTENTION FOR IT, YOU SEE IT NOW THAT HER MESSAGE ON THAT IS SO SHARP, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT SHE'S BEEN DOING FOR TWO YEARS IS OWNING THAT ISSUE.
SO, YEAH, MY SENSE IS SHE DIDN'T FEEL OVERSHADOWED WHEN IT CAME TO THE HILL IN PARTICULAR.
I DON'T KNOW IF SHE FELT OVERSHADOWED IN OTHER WAYS, IF SHE FELT SHE COULD BE BETTER UTILIZED ON OTHER FRONTS, THOUGH.
>> YOU KNOW, HER OWN PRESIDENTIAL RUN WAS WIDELY SEEN AS A BUST.
AND PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF WHY.
BUT IN THE COURSE OF YOUR REPORTING, DID THAT COME UP?
>> YEAH, I THINK, YOU KNOW, ONE ISSUE WITH THAT PRIMARY WAS WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER WHERE DEMOCRATS WERE TRYING TO KIND OF RACE TO THE LEFT IN A LOT OF WAYS TO DISTINGUISH THEMSELVES FROM EACH OTHER AND FROM TRUMP.
LIKE WHO CAN BE THE MOST ANTI-TRUMP DEMOCRAT, WHO CAN HAVE THE HEALTH CARE PLAN THAT'S THE MOST LIBERAL, SO YOU'RE THE BEST LIBERAL.
AND JOE BIDEN SORT OF NEVER ENGAGED IN THAT GAME BECAUSE HE WAS SORT OF, YOU KNOW, I'M THE VICE PRESIDENT.
I AM WHO I AM.
AND HE ALSO BEGAN TO SEEM SORT OF LIKE THE SAFE CHOICE.
I THINK THERE WAS A LOT OF ANXIETY ABOUT THE IDEA OF PICKING ANOTHER WOMAN AFTER 2016, MUCH LESS A BLACK WOMAN BECAUSE HILLARY HAD LOST AND SOME PEOPLE HAD FELT MAYBE THAT WAS BECAUSE SHE WAS TOO MUCH OF A GAMBLE JUST ON THE GENDER PORTION ALONE.
SO I THINK DEMOCRATS WERE ALSO GOING THROUGH A LOT OF FEAR AND RATIONALIZATIONS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN 2016 AND WANT KIND OF A SAFE SURE THING.
AND KAMALA HARRIS NEVER REALLY SEEMED LIKE SHE WAS THAT.
>> AND NOW, I MEAN, IT'S BEEN A REMARKABLE COUPLE OF WEEKS, AS YOU AND I ARE SPEAKING NOW.
THE FUNDRAISING HAS BEEN REMARKABLE.
THE SENSE OF ENERGY ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT?
AND WHAT DO THE PEOPLE THAT YOU'VE INTERVIEWED IN THE SENATE MAKE OF THE RESPONSE TO HER AND TO THE TICKET SO FAR?
>> I ASKED CHUCK SCHUMER ABOUT A THAT ACTUALLY WHEN I WAS TALKING TO HIM FOR THIS PIECE.
AND HE BASICALLY SAID THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO JUST RISE TO A CHALLENGE.
LIKE THIS IS JUST A CRUCIBLE, AND SHE'S JUST SORT OF CRUSHING IT.
AND THAT'S WHO SHE IS.
SHE RISES TO A CHALLENGE.
SO I THINK THAT'S ONE INTERPRETATION, BUT YOU COULD ALSO SAY HER FIRST PRESIDENTIAL RUN WAS A CHALLENGE, AND SHE DIDN'T RISE TO IT, RIGHT.
SO I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF DIFFERENT FACTORS THAT JUST MAKE THIS MOMENT RIGHT FOR HER.
ONE PIECE OF IT IS JUST THE RELIEF AMONG A LOT OF DEMOCRATS THAT IT'S NOT JOE BIDEN, AND THE SURPRISE OF THAT, AND HER SEEMING SO FRESH IN COMPARISON GIVEN CONCERNS ABOUT HIS AGE.
AND THAT'S REALLY BOOSTING HER RIGHT NOW.
AT THE SAME TIME, YOU'RE STARTING TO HEAR PEOPLE SAY, YOU KNOW, I WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT YOUR POLICIES.
WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IN?
CAN YOU SHOW US EXACTLY WHAT YOU WOULD DO?
AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT DID TRIP UP HER EARLIER PRESIDENTIAL RUN, WHEN SHE HAD TO FLESH OUT POLICIES AND IT BECAME THIS RACE, YOU KNOW, AMONG DEMOCRATS FOR WHOSE POLICIES COULD BE MORE LIBERAL.
SO I THINK THAT REMAINS A CHALLENGE FOR HER.
IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW SHE TACKLES IT.
>> HOW WILL SHE TACKLE?
THERE ARE GROUPS THAT EVALUATE DIFFERENT POLITICAL FIGURES AND WHERE THEY SORT OF FIT ON THE IDEOLOGICAL SPECTRUM.
ACCORDING TO ONE OF THOSE, SHE WAS CONSIDERED THE SECOND MOST LIBERAL SENATOR.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS SEIZED ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, SAYING THAT SHE WAS ALMOST AS LIBERAL AS VERMONT SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS, WHO IS A SELF-DESCRIBED SOCIALIST WHO CAUCUSES WITH SORT OF THE DEMOCRATS.
IS THAT -- HOW DO YOU SEE THAT?
>> I THINK SHE WAS DEFINITELY ONE OF THE MOST LIBERAL SENATORS WHEN SHE WAS IN THE SENATE.
AND THE ISSUE THAT SHE REALLY LAUNCHED HER CAREER ON WAS IMMIGRATION AND THIS IDEA OF TRUMP'S RHETORIC AGAINST UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS BEING DEHUMANIZING.
AND SHE INTRODUCED A BILL THAT WOULD HAVE GIVEN IMMIGRANTS THE RIGHT TO AN ATTORNEY AT THE BORDER.
HER MAIDEN SPEECH IN THE SENATE WAS DEFENDING UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.
AND THAT'S SOMETHING NOW WITH POLLS SHOWING THAT A LOT OF AMERICANS ARE VERY CONCERNED ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, THAT SHE IS NOT REALLY EMPHASIZING AS MUCH.
AND THERE IS OTHER ISSUES LIKE THAT AS WELL WHERE SHE HAS REVERSED HER POSITION, LIKE WANTING TO BAN FRACKING.
AND THAT DOES OPEN UP THE RISK OF BEING LABELLED A FLIP-FLOPPER OR BEING INAUTHENTIC IN SEEM WAY, WHICH REPUBLICANS ARE MAKING THAT ARGUMENT.
IF YOU ASK HER PEOPLE AROUND HER, THEY SAY THAT HER TIME AS VICE PRESIDENT HAS SHIFTED HER OPINIONS BECAUSE SHE'S BEEN DEALING WITH REAL WORLD ISSUES.
AND SHE'S KIND OF LEARNING AS SHE GOES AND CHANGING HER MIND, WHICH PEOPLE DO.
SO IT JUST -- I THINK THE WHOLE WORLD AROUND HER POLICY ISSUES AND WHERE DOES SHE STAND AND HOW LIBERAL DOES SHE WANT TO BE, THAT'S BEEN SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN IN THE AIR FOR HER FOR YEARS NOW.
AND THAT'S GOING TO BE ONE OF THE MAIN THINGS SHE HAS TO TACKLE BEFORE THE ELECTION.
>> BUT IF THERE IS AN ACHILLES HEEL FOR HER AS A CANDIDATE, WOULD BIT THAT, THE FACT THAT SHE DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE STAKED OUT AN IDENTITY FROM A POLICY PERSPECTIVE, OR IF SHE HAS, IT'S ONE THAT MAY PLAY WELL IN CALIFORNIA, HER HOME STATE, BUT ISN'T NECESSARILY AS ATTRACTIVE TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.
>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S DEFINITELY WHAT REPUBLICANS ARE BANKING ON, THAT SHE -- HER INSTINCTS ARE MORE LIBERAL THAN THE AVERAGE AMERICAN'S, AND ARE GOING TO TURN OFF THE VOTERS SHE NEEDS TO WIN OVER IN STATES LIKE MICHIGAN, WISCONSIN, PENNSYLVANIA, THAT THEY'RE GOING TO KIND OF SEE THROUGH THIS ACT THEY WOULD SAY OF SEEMING MORE MODERATE, MORE DOWN THE MIDDLE.
AND THERE IS ALSO THE RISK OF PEOPLE ON THE FAR LEFT BEING ANGRY THAT SHE IS NOT WITH THEM, RIGHT.
SO THAT'S ALWAYS THE TIGHTROPE ANY CANDIDATE HAS TO WALK.
DO VOTERS REALLY GET WORKED UP ABOUT POLICY?
HOW MUCH ARE THEY THINKING ABOUT FRACKING, FOR EXAMPLE, VERSUS DOES THIS PERSON SEEM LIKE THEY HAVE A STEADY HEAD ON THEIR SHOULDERS?
DO THEY SEEM LIKE SOMEONE WHO IS NICE, THAT I TRUST.
A LOT OF TIMES DECISIONS DO COME DOWN TO CANDIDATE KIND OF QUALITIES VERSUS POLICY PAPERS.
SO I THINK TO ME THE MOST POTENTIALLY POTENT ATTACK REPUBLICANS COULD HAVE ON HARRIS IS IF THE POLICY SWITCHING BECOMES A CHARACTER ISSUE.
IT INAUTHENTIC?
DOES IT MEAN SHE DOESN'T STAND FOR ANYTHING.
THINGS LIKE THAT TEND TO BE MORE POWERFUL THAN JUST THE POLICIES THEMSELVES.
>> AND BEFORE I LET YOU GO, LIZ, WHAT IS HER NORTH STAR?
FROM WHAT YOU CAN DETERMINE, BASED ON YOUR FOLLOWING HER CAREER AND BASED ON YOUR REPORTING, WHAT IS HER NORTH STAR?
WHAT DRIVES HER?
>> I MEAN, SHE OFTEN TALKS ABOUT HER PARENTS BEING INVOLVED IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT GROWING UP IN OAKLAND.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHEN SHE TELLS HER OWN ORIGIN STORY ABOUT WHAT MADE HER WANT TO BECOME A LAWYER, GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS, TRY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, THAT'S WHERE SHE REALLY LOCATES IT.
SO I DO THINK HER NORTH STAR IS BELIEVING IN AN AMERICA THAT YOU HAVE TO GET INVOLVED IF YOU WANT TO IMPROVE IT, IF YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE HAS THE PROMISE OF EQUALITY HERE, OF OPPORTUNITY.
AND THAT'S WHY SHE GOT INVOLVED.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT SHE WOULD SAY TODAY AS WELL.
>> LIZ GOODWIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WAS.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> AND TALKING OF GETTING INVOLVED, FINALLY TONIGHT, WE SAY GOODBYE TO A TELEVISION ICON, PHIL DONAHUE DIED LAST NIGHT, AGED 88 FOLLOWING A LONG ILLNESS.
FOR NEARLY THREE DECADES, HE HOSTED HIS OWN TALK SHOW, PIONEERING A NEW FORMAT FOR DAYTIME TV THAT FOCUSED ON EVERYDAY TOPICS AND HAD AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION.
ON HIS PROGRAM, HE SHOWED EMPATHY TOWARDS WOMEN'S RIGHTS AND ISSUES.
SOME MIGHT EVEN HAVE CALLED HIM A FEMINIST.
>> WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT HAD NEVER BEEN DISCUSSED ON THE AIR.
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE THINGS THAT WOMEN WERE TALKING ABOUT AMONG THEMSELVES.
WHEN ALL THE MEN ON SATURDAY NIGHT WOULD GO INTO THE KITCHEN AND MIX THEIR DRINKS, THE WOMEN WOULD GATHER IN THE LIVING ROOM.
AND WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT ARE ISSUES THAT THE DONAHUE PEOPLE BROUGHT TO TELEVISION.
I'M VERY PROUD OF THAT.
>> AND IN THE 1980s, DURING THE COLD WAR, DONAHUE CO-HOSTED A SPACE BRIDGE TALK SHOW WITH THE SOVIET JOURNALIST VLADIMIR POZNER.
IT WAS A GROUNDBREAKING MOMENT THAT ALLOWED STUDIO AUDIENCES IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE SOVIET UNION TO ASK ONE ANOTHER QUESTIONS VIA SATELLITE.
OVER THE COURSE OF HIS CAREER, HE WON 20 EMMYS AND JUST THREE MONTHS BEFORE HIS DEATH, HE WAS AWARDED THE PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM BY JOE BIDEN.
>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
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