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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
THE PRIME MINISTER OF BANGLADESH RESIGNS, AND FLEES AFTER DEADLY PROTESTS.
I GET THE LATEST WITH "NEW YORK TIMES" SOUTH ASIA BUREAU CHIEF MUJIB MASHAL.
AND I TALK TO BANGLADESHI NOBEL PRIZE WINNER MUHAMMAD YUNUS.
>> HAMAS CONTINUES TO REGROUP.
REGENERATE.
>> IS THE ISRAELI GOAL OF ANNIHILATING HAMAS'S MILITARY FAILING?
WE HAVE A SPECIAL REPORT.
>>> THEN -- COUNTRIES URGE THEIR CITIZENS TO FLEE LEBANON, AS TENSIONS ESCALATE WITH ISRAEL.
AS FEARS OF A WIDER WAR GROW, I'M JOINED BY FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER EHUD BARAK.
ALSO AHEAD -- >> ANY ERA OF REALLY RAPID CHANGE TENDS TO MAKE PEOPLE LOOK FOR A SINGLE LEADER, OR AN AUTOCRAT.
>> HISTORIAN AND JOURNALIST ANNE APPLEBAUM TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HER NEW BOOK, WHICH UNCOVERS THE NETWORKS TRYING TO DESTROY THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD.
>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.
WELL, TODAY AFTER 15 YEARS IN POWER, THE PRIME MINISTER OF BANGLADESH, SHEIKH HASINA, HAS RESIGNED FROM HER POST AND FLED THE COUNTRY.
THE ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE COUNTRY'S ARMY CHIEF COMING AFTER THESE EXTRAORDINARY SCENES OF PEOPLE STORMING THE PRIME MINISTER'S RESIDENCE.
IT'S AN INCREDIBLE DEVELOPMENT, AND THE CULMINATION OF DEADLY PROTESTS THAT HAVE ROCKED THE NATION FOR WEEWEEKS.
AT LEAST 91 PEOPLE DYING JUST YESTERDAY AFTER DEMONSTRATORS CLASHED WITH POLICE.
NOW, THIS ALL STARTED OVER NEW QUOTAS FOR GOVERNMENT JOBS, BUT QUICKLY EVOLVED INTO A MUCH WIDER ANTI-GOVERNMENT PROTEST.
SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN CLOSELY FOLLOWING THIS SITUATION IS MUJIB MASHAL, "NEW YORK TIMES" SOUTH ASIA BUREAU CHIEF, AND HE JOINS US NOW FROM NEW DELHI.
MUJIB, QUITE AN HISTORIC DAY, 170 MILLION PEOPLE IN AN COUNTRY THE SIZE OF ILLINOIS.
TELL US ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS DEVELOPMENT.
>> WELL, ON THE ONE HAND, THERE IS SORT OF JUBILATION ON THE STREETS, BECAUSE IT IS THE END OF WHAT WAS INCREASINGLY A VERY AUTHORITARIAN RULE.
PRIME MINISTER HASINA, IN THE EARLY PART OF HER CAREER, SHE WAS SORT OF ASSOCIATED WITH HOPE.
SHE CAME FROM PERSONAL TRAUMA, BECAUSE HER FAMILY WAS MASSACRED IN THE '70s, BUT THEN SHE WAS A SYMBOL OF HOW THIS COUNTRY COULD TURN THINGS AROUND.
SHE OFFERED ECONOMIC UPLIFTMENT TO A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, A COUNTRY THAT WAS DEEPLY POOR, AND SHE SORT OF TRIED TO REIN IN THE MILITARY THAT WAS LONG IN THE PRACTICE OF, YOU KNOW, COUPS AND COUNTER-COUPS.
AT ONE POINT IN HER CAREER, SHE OFFERED THIS PROMISE OF HOPE, BUT IN RECENT YEARS, SHE WAS DEEPLY AUTHORITARIAN, SO, THE END OF HER RULE HAS CREATED, YOU KNOW, THIS JUBILATION ON THE STREETS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE ARE DEEP CONCERNS, BECAUSE THE COUNTRY, AS YOU MENTIONED, HUGE COUNTRY OF 170 MILLION PEOPLE, IT IS LEADERLESS RIGHT NOW.
THE LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT COULD CONTAIN WHAT IS DEEPLY ENTRENCHED POLITICAL AN NO, SIRTIES BETWEEN PARTIES, THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT IS VERY DISCREDITED.
SO, ON THE STREETS, THERE ARE STILL REPORTS OF VIOLENCE, BUT THERE'S ALSO FEAR THAT EXTREMIST ELEMENTS COULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS VACUUM, SO, RIGHT NOW, IT'S A MIX OF JUBILATION, BUT ALSO, DEEP CONCERN.
>> YEAH, DEEP CONCERN ABOUT WHAT COULD COME NEXT, AND THE ISSUE OF STABILITY IN THE COUNTRY.
AS WE HEARD FROM THE ARMY CHIEF, TELLING CITIZENS THERE, KEEP YOUR TRUST IN THE ARMY, QUOTE, WE WILL RESTORE PEACE IN THE COUNTRY.
PLEASE COOPERATE.
AS YOU NOTED EARLIER, THERE WAS A LARGE LEVEL OF DISTRUST BETWEEN THE MILITARY AND ITS CITIZENS.
YOU MENTIONED A NUMBER OF COUPS THERE.
WHEN YOU HEAR THAT TYPE OF MESSAGING FROM THE ARMY CHIEF NOW, HOW SHOULD IT BE INTERPRETED?
>> WELL, YES, THE ARMY HAS HAD A HISTORY OF COUPS, BLOODY COUPS, INCLUDING A COUP THAT KILLED PRIME MINISTER HASINA'S FAMILY, AND HER FATHER, BUT IN RECENT YEARS, IT HAS BEEN MORE OF A DISCIPLINED ARMY FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS.
ONE WAS PRIME MINISTER HASINA SORT OF STACKED THE LEADERSHIP WITH LOYALISTS, AND MADE SURE THEY DON'T STAGE A COUP AGAINST HER.
BUT ANOTHER REASON IS THE ARMY IS A BIG CONTRIBUTOR TO THE U.N. PEACE KEEPING.
THE U.N. PEACE KEEPING MISSIONS ABROAD.
AND THAT'S A VERY LUCRATIVE BUSINESS FOR THE SENIOR LEADERSHIP OF THE ARMY, THE OFFICERS, SO, THAT KEEPS THEM AWAY FROM COUPS AND SORT OF REINS IN SOME OF THE ABUSES, AS WELL.
SO, NOW, AT THIS STAGE, IT FEELS LIKE ALTHOUGH THE ARMY IS CONTROLLING THE SITUATION, IT HAS SIGNALED AND IT WANTS TO, YOU KNOW, HAND OVER POWER TO AN INTERIM GOVERNMENT, A CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT, THAT COULD THEN OVERSEE ELECTIONS, POTENTIALLY.
I MEAN, WHAT IS NOT CLEAR IS THAT THE COUNTRY'S PARLIAMENT IS NOT DISSOLVED RIGHT NOW, SO, THE PRIME MINISTER HAS FLED, AND MAYBE A LOT OF HER MPs AND MINISTERS HAVE FLED, BUT THE STATUS OF THE COUNTRY'S PARLIAMENT IS UNCLEAR RIGHT NOW, AND THE FUTURE OF WHAT KIND OF GOVERNMENT FORMATION IT COULD BE IS UNCLEAR.
BUT THE ARMY HAS NOT SIGNALED THAT THIS IS A COUP OR THAT THEY ARE TAKING OVER.
>> THE ARC OF SHEIKH HASINA'S GOVERNANCE IS INTERESTING.
BECAUSE IT'S EVOLVED FROM ONE WHERE THERE WAS A SENSE OF OPTIMISM ABOUT THE CHANGE IN CIVILITY SHE COULD BRING TO THE COUNTRY.
THEN, OBVIOUSLY YEARS OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE OPENNESS, RIGHT, OF -- IN LEGALITY OF ELECTIONS IN THAT COUNTRY.
AND HERE YOU HAVE HER FLEEING AFTER BEING ACCUSED OF CORRUPTION, AUTHORITARIANISM TACTICS.
SHE SPOKE WITH CHRISTIANE BACK IN 2013, AFTER WHAT WAS A TRAGIC BUILDING COLLAPSE, AND JUST ON THE ISSUE OF TRANSPARENCY ALONE, I THINK IT'S REALLY USEFUL TO GET A SENSE OF WHERE SHE STOOD ON THAT FRONT.
HERE WAS PART OF THEIR EXCHANGE.
>> I SAID, CNN AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS HAVE NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO COME TO BANGLADESH AS JOURNALISTS TO COVER THIS STORY.
THEY HAVE PUT VERY DRACONIAN CONDITIONS ON -- >> THAT IS NOT TRUE.
>> IT IS TRUE.
>> NO, NO.
>> YES, IT IS TRUE.
>> NO, NO, BANGLADESH IS A FREE COUNTRY.
>> WE WOULD HOPE THAT.
>> LISTEN, IN OUR COUNTRY, WE HAVE PRIVATE TELEVISION.
NO, TELL ME ONE THING.
WHY I'M TALKING TO YOU -- >> I'M NOT THERE, PRIME MINISTER.
PRIME MINISTER, I'M NOT THERE.
>> IF WE PREVENT YOU -- NO, NO, IF WE PREVENT CNN, THEN WHY I AM TALKING TO YOU?
>> BEATS ME.
>> YOU DON'T PUBLISH IT.
>> YOU SEE HER DEFIANCE THERE, AT TIMES REALLY SEEMINGLY TALKING PAST CHRISTIANE, NOT ADDRESSING HER CONCERNS AND QUESTIONS HEAD-ON.
THAT WAS 11 YEARS AGO.
WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT THAT NOW AND SEE WHERE THINGS HAVE TURNED TODAY, WHAT IS YOUR TAKEAWAY?
>> WELL, I MEAN, IT IS -- I'M NOT SURPRISED BY THAT EXCHANGE.
I MET HER LAST YEAR FOR AN INTERVIEW AND WHAT TELLS -- WHAT THAT TELLS ME IS THAT THERE WERE TWO SHEIKH HASINAS.
ONE WAS THE IMAGE OF THE OUTSIDE WORLD OF THIS SORT OF CHIC, SECULAR MUSLIM WOMAN WHO STOOD UP AGAINST ISLAMIC MILL TAN SI, WHO BROUGHT ECONOMIC IMPROVEMENT TO HER COUNTRY.
THAT WAS ONE IMAGE OF HER.
THE OTHER WAS WHAT SHE WAS DOING TO HER POLITICAL OPPONENTS, THE WAY SHE WAS CONCENTRATING POWER AND TURNING THE COUNTRY INTO A ONE-PARTY STATE.
FOR THE LONGEST TIME, SHE HAD SORT OF JUGGLED BOTH.
AND SHE HAD FIGURED OUT A FORMULA WHERE SHE COULD COMPLETELY MARGINALIZE HER ORGANIZED POLITICAL OPPOSITION IN A WAY WHERE THEY WERE NOT A THREAT TO HER.
>> YEAH.
>> BUT WHAT BROUGHT HER DOWN, WHAT BROUGHT THE END OF HER WAS NOT NECESSARILY THE ORGANIZED POLITICAL OPPOSITION, IT WAS THE WIDER PUBLIC.
IT WAS STUDENTS, RIGHT?
AND IT WAS MISHANDLING -- HER MISHANDLING OF WHAT WAS ACTUALLY A PEACEFUL PROTEST AND IT WAS SORT OF USING THE SAME PLAYBOOK OF CRACKDOWNS, OF FORCE THAT SHE HAD USED AGAINST HER ORGANIZED OPPONENTS, AGAINST THE WIDER PUBLIC.
>> MUJIB MASHAL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
WE'LL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THIS STORY.
>>> FOR MORE ON THIS, EARLIER, I SPOKE WITH PERHAPS THE MOST BEST-KNOWN BANGLADESHI IN THE WORLD, MUHAMMAD YUNUS.
HE HAD A FRACTURED RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER.
MANY SAY HE WAS THE TARGET OF JUDICIAL HARASSMENT.
I STARTED BY ASKING HIM HIS REACTION TO SHEIKH HASINA'S SURPRISING RESIGNATION.
>> WELL, WE FEEL RELIEVED THAT SHE FINALLY RESIGNED AND LEFT THE COUNTRY.
PEOPLE ARE CELEBRATING ON THE STREET.
AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE CELEBRATING, AS IF THIS IS OUR LIBERATION DAY.
WE HAD OUR FIRST LIBERATION DAY IN 1971, WHEN WE WERE FREE FROM PAKISTAN.
SO, WE ARE HAVING SIMILAR, OR EVEN BETTER CELEBRATIONS NOW, THAT WE GOT RID OF SOMEONE THAT TORTURED US FOR SO MANY YEARS.
>> WE ALSO KNOW IT'S A VERY TROUBLING TIME FOR YOUR COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.
STUDENT PROTESTS THAT STARTED LAST MONTH AFTER A JOB QUOTA SYSTEM DEVELOPED INTO A BROADER UPRISING AGAINST SHEIKH HASINA.
THERE HAVE BEEN 300 OR MORE PEOPLE KILLED.
I KNOW YOU ARE NOT IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.
WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO THE CITIZENS THERE, THOUGH?
>> THE MESSAGE IS, YOU HAVE DONE A GREAT JOB.
YOU GOT TO THE STREET AND RAISED YOUR VOICE.
CHILDREN WERE KILLED, YOU STILL CONTINUED, YOUNG PEOPLE CAME FORWARD AGAINST THE POLICE, AGAINST THE PARAMILITARY, AGAINST THE ARMY, WHO WAS SHOOTING THEM AND KILLING THEM EVERY DAY.
EVEN YESTERDAY, THERE WAS A KILLING OF SOME 97 PEOPLE WERE KILLED YESTERDAY.
IT GOES ON, BEFORE SHE FINALLY DECIDED TO STEP DOWN, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE WHOLE COUNTRY WAS WAITING FOR, DEMANDING, THAT SHE MUST LEAVE THE COUNTRY, LEAVE US ALONE, BECAUSE SHE HAS TORTURED US, SHE HAS MADE THIS COUNTRY UNLIVABLE FOR PEOPLE, AND ALL THE CORRUPTION SHE HAS DONE, AND ALL THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT SHE HAS DONE TO PEOPLE, DENYING THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE.
DENYING THEIR RIGHT TO VOTE.
WE DIDN'T HAVE AN ELECTION FOR THE LAST THREE TERMS.
AND THESE YOUNG PEOPLE, THESE ARE TWO-THIRDS OF THE TOTAL POPULATION OF 170 MILLION PEOPLE, YOUNG PEOPLE ARE TWO-THIRD OF THE POPULATION.
NEVER VOTED IN ANY SINGLE ELECTION YET IN THEIR LIFE, BECAUSE THE ELECTIONS DIDN'T HAPPEN.
THE ELECTIONS WERE JUST A FICTION.
>> SO, NOW THE QUESTION TURNS TO WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.
THE MILITARY SAID IT WOULD BEGIN TALKS WITH THE PRESIDENT AND REPRESENTATIVES OF POLITICAL PARTIES ON FORMING AN INTERIM GOVERNMENT.
THE ARMY CHIEF SAID THIS, "I GIVE YOU MY WORD THAT ALL KILLINGS, ALL INJUSTICE, WILL BE EXAMINED.
PLEASE KEEP UP YOUR TRUST IN THE ARMY, WE WILL RESTORE PEACE IN THE COUNTRY.
PLEASE COOPERATE."
THE ARMY ITSELF, AS WE KNOW, THOUGH, HAS A HISTORY OF STAGING COUPS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN, AND HOW MUCH FAITH DO YOU HAVE IN THOSE WORDS FROM THE ARMY CHIEF?
>> ONE THING THAT THE ARMY HAS DONE WELL, AND WE APPRECIATE, PERSUADED HASINA TO STEP DOWN, SHE WAS REFUSING TO STEP DOWN, AND LET HER LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
ALSO, THE PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT SHE STAYED IN THE COUNTRY, DON'T LET HER GO, BUT THE ARMY LET HER GO.
SO, THAT'S ONE GOOD THING THEY HAVE DONE.
AND ARMY RULE, AS THE KIND OF CONCEPT, IT DOESN'T WORK WELL.
IT CREATES LOTS OF OTHER PROBLEMS.
SO I HOPE THE ARMY NOW WILL BE WISE, THEY WILL HAND OVER ALL THE RESPONSIBILITY TO CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT, AND I HEAR TODAY THAT THAT'S THE DIRECTION THEY'RE GOING, THEY'RE CREATING A CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT AND HAND OVER ALL THE RESPONSIBILITIES TO THE CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT.
THAT WILL BE IDEAL GOVERNMENT, NOT DONE BY THE ABOUTNY FROM BEHIND.
THIS IS ALL THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE GOVERNMENT WILL BE THERE.
>> WE KNOW THAT SHEIKH HASINA WAS NOT A FAN OF YOURS.
SHE ONCE CALLED YOU A BLOOD SUCKER OF THE POOR.
SHE ALSO SAID YOU WERE SOMEONE -- THAT SOMEONE OUGHT TO TEACH YOU A LESSON.
AND MANY WESTERN OFFICIALS SAID THAT YOU WERE THE TARGET OF JUDICIAL HARASSMENT.
YOU'RE ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS BANGLADESHIS IN THE WORLD.
DO YOU HAVE ANY INTEREST IN TURNING TO POLITICS NOW?
>> I NEVER WAS INTERESTED IN POLITICS, BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT'S NOT HOW I SHOULD SPEND MY TIME, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW HOW POLITICIANS DO THINGS AND CHANGE THINGS.
I DON'T -- I DON'T WANT TO GET INVOLVED WITH THAT KIND OF THING.
SO, I WANTED TO CONCENTRATE ON THE WORK THAT I DO.
I WAS OFFERED TO BECOME THE HEAD OF THE GOVERNMENT BACK IN 19 -- SORRY, 2007.
I THANK THEM AND STAYED AWAY FROM THEM.
SO, THAT'S HOW I WILL SEE MYSELF AS A PERSON, IN DOING THE THINGS DEAR TO HIM, ABOUT CREATING A WORLD OF ZERO NET CARBON EMISSIONS, CREATIVITY OF YOUNG PEOPLE, TURNING THEM INTO ENTREPRENEURS, TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF CHANGING THE WORLD.
OLDER GENERATION CANNOT DO THAT, BECAUSE THEIR MINDS ARE SET.
SO, THESE ARE THE THINGS I WORK WITH, AND THE YOUNG PEOPLE LOVE IT, AND PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH ME, AND THAT'S HOW I WILL CONTINUE THAT.
>> SO, IF YOU WERE ASKED, HYPOTHETICALLY, BY ONE OF THE CURRENT POLITICAL PARTIES, YOU WOULD REFUSE?
TO SERVE?
>> AH -- I'LL TRY TO CONVINCE THEM, YES, BUT I DON'T KNOW.
WHAT'S THE SITUATION RIGHT NOW.
>> WE ALSO MENTIONED THAT YOU WERE THE TARGET OF THE COURTS, YOU WERE SENTENCED TO SIX MONTHS FOR LABOR VIOLATIONS, MANY WORLD LEADERS CAME TO YOUR DEFENSE.
WHAT DOES HER STEPPING DOWN NOW, FLEEING THE COUNTRY, WHAT IMPACT, IF ANY, DOES THAT HAVE ON YOUR CASE?
>> ANY GOOD GOVERNMENT WHO COMES WILL IMMEDIATELY SEE THESE ARE FAKE CASES AND SO ON, DISMISS ALL THOSE CASES, WITHDRAW ALL THOSE CASES, AND I'M SURE I'LL BE A FREE PERSON.
>> GIVEN SHEIKH HASINA'S PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST YOU, DOES THIS DEVELOPMENT AT ALL FEEL LIKE A SORT OF VINDICATION?
>> I'M NOT DIRECTLY CONNECTED WITH THAT.
I DON'T THINK THAT WAS THE REASON, BUT IT IS PART OF IT.
IT'S PART OF IT, FAILURE OF THE GOVERNMENT, TO PROTECT PEOPLE IS PART OF IT.
BECAUSE WHEN THIS BEGAN, I MADE IT, GLOBAL APPEAL TO EVERYBODY, PLEASE SAVE OUR YOUNG PEOPLE, THE GOVERNMENT OF THE COUNTRY IS KILLING THEIR OWN PEOPLE, JUST FOR DEMONSTRATIONS, SHOOTING THEM IN THE DEMONSTRATION, SO, I MADE APPEAL TO EVERYBODY, THAT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN.
THESE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE JUST DEMONSTRATING FOR A CAUSE, VERY SIMPLE CAUSE.
AND THEY DON'T HAVE ANY GUNS.
WHY SHOULD ANYBODY IN THE GOVERNMENT KILL THEM?
AND EVERY DAY, THEY WERE KILLING, EVERY HOUR, THEY WERE KILLING.
SO, THAT'S AN APPEAL THAT I WAS MAKING, SO, THIS IS KIND OF A FAILURE OF THE GOVERNMENT, FAILURE OF DEMOCRACY, BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY, SHE BELIEVES IN AUTOCRACY.
AND HER VOICE IS THE ONLY ONE TO BE HEARD.
ONE COUNTRY, ONE LEADER, ONE PARTY, AND ONE -- AND NOBODY CAN DEVIATE FROM THAT.
SO, THAT'S NOT THE KIND OF WORLD THAT WE WANTED TO HAVE IN BANGLADESH.
EVERYBODY HAS TO HAVE A CHALLENGE, IF THEIR COUNTRY SHOULD BE DEMOCRACY.
I SAID, GIVE DEMOCRACY A CHANCE TO SOLVE ALL THESE PROBLEMS.
>> AN ANALYST WHO WAS WELL-VERSED ON CURRENT POLITICS IN BANGLADESH HAD THIS WARNING, HE SAID THAT PROTESTERS' VICTORY RIGHT NOW COULD STILL BE HIJACKED BY SOMEONE, QUOTE, WE ARE NOT SURE ABOUT THE COMING DAYS OR MONTHS.
DO YOU SHARE THOSE CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT LIES AHEAD?
>> YES, OF COURSE, OF COURSE.
OF COURSE, THEY WILL NOT TAKE IT LYING, THOSE WHO ARE ELIMINATED FROM GOVERNMENT, THOSE WHO ENJOYED SO MUCH WEALTH.
THEY WILL BE VERY SCARED AND WANT TO MAKE SURE THIS GOVERNMENT CANNOT STAY ON.
SO, THEY'LL BE DOING EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO DISCREDIT IT OR PULL IT DOWN AS QUICKLY AS THEY CAN, BEFORE THEY CAN SET IT DOWN.
>> DO YOU HAVE PLANS ON RETURNING TO BANGLADESH ANY TIME SOON?
>> YES, OF COURSE, I'M PLANNING TO GO BACK.
>> OKAY, WELL, MUHAMMAD YUNUS, THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO JOIN US TODAY.
>> THANK YOU.
>> WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
>> YEAH, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>>> WELL, TO ISRAEL NOW, WHERE PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU FACES GROWING PRESSURE TO AGREE TO A CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE RELEASE DEAL.
HE HAS REPORTEDLY SAID THAT ISRAELI FORCES ARE NEARING THEIR STATED GOAL OF ELIMINATING HAMAS AND DESTROYING THE GROUP'S MILITARY CAPABILITIES IN GAZA.
BUT FORENSIC ANALYSIS OF HAMAS'S MILITANT OPERATION SINCE ITS LED ITS DEADLY ATTACKS ON OCTOBER 7th CAST DOUBTS ON HIS CLAIMS.
ACCORDING TO NEW RESEARCH, NEARLY HALF OF HAMAS'S BATTALIONS IN NORTHERN AND CENTRAL GAZA HAVE REBUILT SOME OF THEIR FIGHTING CAPABILITIES.
TAMARA QIBLAWI REPORTS.
>> Reporter: ISRAELI SOLDIERS IN GAZA FIGHTING STREET BY STREET, HOUSE BY HOUSE, IN ISRAEL'S LONGEST WAR IN DECADES.
THE GOAL, THEY SAY, TO DESTROY ANY SEMBLANCE OF HAMAS.
NETANYAHU'S MESSAGE IS CLEAR -- THE DESTRUCTION OF HAMAS IMMINENT.
THE OBJECTIVE WITHIN REACH.
BUT THE DATA PAINTS A VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE.
CNN, THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, AND THE INSTITUTE FOR THE STUDY OF WAR ALL COMBED THROUGH THOUSANDS OF CLAIMS BY THE IDF AND HAMAS'S MILITARY WING.
WHAT WE FOUND WAS EVIDENCE OF A SIGNIFICANT HAMAS RESURGENCE.
HAVE A LOOK AT THE GAZA STRIP.
ISRAEL BELIEVES THERE ARE 24 HAMAS BATTALIONS SPREAD THROUGHOUT THE TERRITORY.
WE ANALYZED 16 OF THESE IN NORTHERN AND CENTRAL GAZA.
THE MOST TARGETED AREAS IN ISRAEL'S NINE-MONTH OFFENSIVE.
OUR RESEARCH SHOWS THAT OUT OF THESE 16, ONLY TWO HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.
NINE DEGRADED, BUT STILL FUNCTIONAL.
FIVE ARE CURRENTLY COMBAT EFFECTIVE.
ABLE TO CARRY OUT MISSIONS AGAINST ISRAELI FORCES.
EVEN AS ISRAEL USES ITS FULL MILITARY MIGHT, HAMAS HAS BEEN ABLE TO PARTIALLY REBUILD NEARLY HALF OF THESE BATTALIONS.
AND, IT SAYS, IT IS REPLENISHING ITS RANKED.
A HIGH-RANKING ISRAELI OFFICER TOLD CNN THEY AGREE.
>> EVERYWHERE HAMAS REARS ITS HEAD WE WILL ENTER.
CAN THIS PING-PONG STAND FOREVER?
NO.
OUR SOCIETY IS NOT BUILT FOR THIS, AND NEITHER IS THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.
>> Reporter: TAKE A LOOK AT JABALYA, WHERE ISRAEL'S PROBLEMS ARE LAID BARE.
BACK IN DECEMBER, ISRAEL DECLARED THE THREE BATTALIONS STATIONED HERE DESTROYED.
IN MAY, LESS THAN SIX MONTHS LATER, ISRAELI FORCES FACED FIERCE FIGHTING BY ALL THREE BATTALIONS.
NOW, AS A GUR LITTLE LA FORCE, EMERGING FROM THE RUBBLE.
WE SEE THE SCENARIO PLAY OUT ACROSS GAZA.
THE IDF SAYS IT HAS KILLED OR CAPTURED MORE THAN 14,000 HAMAS COMBATANTS, AS WELL AS HALF OF THE MILITARY LEADERSHIP, INCLUDING ITS TOP COMMANDER.
BUT HAMAS CONTINUES TO RECRUIT, TO REGROUP, TO REGENERATE.
MILITARY EXPERTS WE SPOKE TO SAY ISRAEL'S HEAVY-HANDED BOMBING CAMPAIGN HAS ACCELERATED HAMAS'S RECRUITMENT FROM AMONG THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.
RETIRED U.S.
COLONEL PETER MONSOUR HELPED LEAD THE 2007 SURGE IN IRAQ, CONSIDERED ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL COUNTERINSURGENCIES IN U.S. HISTORY.
>> THE FACT THAT THEY'RE STILL IN GAZA, STILL TRYING TO ROOT OUT ELEMENTS OF THE HAMAS BATTALIONS SHOWS ME THAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS WRONG.
THE ABILITY OF HAMAS TO RECONSTITUTE ITS FIGHTING FORCE IS -- IS UNDIMINISHED.
>> Reporter: IS THIS AN UNWINNABLE WAR?
>> THIS CONFLICT WILL ONLY END WITH A POLITICAL SOLUTION.
IT WON'T END WITH A MILITARY VICTORY.
>> Reporter: NETANYAHU FACES PRESSURE OVER THE SPIRALING HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE IN GAZA, AND AROUND 115 ISRAELI HOSTAGES WHO REMAIN THERE.
MORE THAN 39,000 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED, ACCORDING TO HEALTH AUTHORITIES.
GAZA HAS BEEN LARGELY DESTROYED.
YET HAMAS'S HOLD OVER THE TERRITORY ENDURES.
>> NOW, RESPONDING TO THAT REPORT AFTER IT WAS PUBLISHED, THE ISRAELI MILITARY REJECTED THE FINDINGS, ARGUING THAT THE MAJORITY OF HAMAS'S BRING GALDS HAD BEEN DISMANTLED, AND THAT MOST BA TOLLONS WERE, QUOTE, AT A LOW LEVEL OF READINESS, UNABLE TO FUNCTION AS A MILITARY FRAMEWORK.
BUT IT'S IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THAT THE ANALYSIS IN THIS REPORT RELIED ON U.S. MILITARY DEFINITIONS, WHICH DIFFER FROM THOSE USED BY THE IDF.
>>> MEANTIME, FEARS OF A WIDER WAR CONTINUE TO GROW, AS TENSIONS BETWEEN ISRAEL, LEBANON, AND IRAN ESCALATE.
AFTER TWIN ASSASSINATIONS BY ISRAEL OF A SENIOR HEZBOLLAH COMMANDER IN BEIRUT, AND THE HAMAS POLITICAL LEADER IN TEHRAN, MULTIPLE COUNTRIES ARE NOW URGING CITIZENS IN LEBANON TO LEAVE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.
AND THE U.S. HAS MOVED MORE TROOPS TO THE REGION, AS THEY PREPARE FOR ANY POSSIBILITY.
MEANTIME, JORDAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER VISITED IRAN ON SUNDAY, IN A DESPERATE BID TO REDUCE TENSIONS.
IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY TIME IN THE REGION, AND JOINING ME NOW TO DISCUSS IS EHUD BARAK, HE SERVED AS ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER, AS WELL AS THE IDF'S CHIEF OF STAFF AND DEFENSE MINISTER, AS WELL.
PRIME MINISTER BARAK, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
BEFORE WE GET TO THIS CONCERN ABOUT WHAT IRAN'S RETALIATORY STRIKE MAY LOOK LIKE, I DO WANT TO GET YOU TO RESPOND TO THE REPORT WE JUST PLAYED ABOUT THE ABILITY FOR HAMAS TO STILL RECRUIT FIGHTERS AND WHERE YOU THINK THAT LIES IN RELATION TO WHAT WE'VE HEARD FROM THE PRIME MINISTER IN HIS STATEMENTS THAT THE IDF IS ON THE VERGE OF SUCCESS IN ITS MISSION TO TAKE OUT HAMAS?
>> YOU KNOW, THE REALITY IS PROBABLY SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN THESE TWO VERSIONS.
IT WAS CLEAR TO ANYONE WHO HAS ANY MILITARY EXPERIENCE THAT -- FROM DAY ONE, SOME TEN MONTHS AGO, THAT THE RIGHT WAY TO DEAL WITH HAMAS, WHICH IS BASICALLY NOT AN ORDERLY ONE ARMY, IT'S KIND OF TWO ORGANIZATION THAT EXCELS IN GUERILLA WAR, NOT IN FULL-SCALE KIND OF CLASH BETWEEN ARMIES, THAT THE RIGHT WAY WAS THE FOLLOWING.
ISRAEL HAS A COMPELLING IMPERATIVE TO PUT AN END TO WINNING OVER HAMAS.
HAMAS OVER THE GAZA STRIP TO MAKE SURE THAT HAMAS CANNOT THREATEN ISRAEL ANYMORE, BUT THE WAY, THE PRACTICAL WAY TO ACHIEVE IT WAS TO ATTACK THE WHOLE GAZA STRIP, SIMULTANEOUSLY, WITH OUR MUCH SUPERIOR POWER TO CAUSE THE MOST DAMAGE THAT WE CAN AND TO TAKE CONTROL OF ALL THE CITIES, ALL THE CAMPS, ALL THE NEIGHBORHOODS SIMULTANEOUSLY.
THE GAZA STRIP IS A TINY PIECE OF GROUND, IT COULD EASILY BE DONE WITHIN SEVERAL WEEKS.
AND THEN TO HANDLE THE -- THE GAZA STRIP INTO THE HANDS OF MULTINATIONAL ARAB FORCE BACKED BY THE ARAB LEAGUE AND BY THE AMERICANS, WHO WILL TAKE IT FROM US AND WILL TAKE IT FOR LIMITED PERIOD, LET'S SAY NINE MONTHS, PROBABLY 18 MONTHS, DURING WHICH THEY WILL BRING BACK INTO THE AREA THE -- WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN CALLED REVISED PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.
YOU CANNOT RUN THE GAZA STRIP -- YOU NEED PALESTINIANS, AND THE ONLY LEGITIMATE INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BODY IS THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, THEY ARE MUCH BETTER THAN HAMAS.
THAT WAS THE RIGHT TRAJECTORY.
IT WAS CLEAR FROM DAY ONE THAT IN TERMS OF GUERILLA WARFARE, HAMAS CAN DRAG IT OVER YEARS, AND THAT'S NOT OUR BUSINESS TO STAY THERE FOR YEARS, SO THIS OPPORTUNITY WAS MISSED, ONCE AND AGAIN, ALL ALONG THE LAST TEN MONTHS.
PRESIDENT BIDEN PROPOSED IT TWO WEEKS AFTER THE OPENING OF THE WAR.
>> HERE YOU ARE, AS YOU NOTED, TEN MONTHS INTO WHAT IS ISRAEL'S NOW LONGEST WAR SINCE ITS WAR OF INDEPENDENCE, AND IN ADDITION TO THAT, ANTICIPATING A RESPONSE FROM IRAN, FOLLOWING TWO ASSASSINATION STRIKES BACK-TO-BACK, ONE AGAINST A HEZBOLLAH COMMANDER IN BEIRUT, AND OBVIOUSLY THAT WAS FOLLOWED BY ISMAIL HANIYEH AND HIS ASSASSINATION, WHICH THE IDF AND ISRAEL DID NOT TAKE CREDIT FOR, BUT IS LARGELY BELIEVED TO BE BEHIND.
I'M CURIOUS, HERE WE ARE AGAIN, WE WERE FACING A RESPONSE FROM IRAN, WHICH ISRAEL DID GET BY AN 300 PROJECTILES, MISSILES AND DRONES LOBBED TOWARD ISRAEL, SUCCESSFULLY SHOT DOWN BY ISRAEL WITH THE HELP OF THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER REGIONAL PARTNERS.
THE CONCERN HERE, AS YOU KNOW, MR. PRIME MINISTER, IS THAT ISRAEL APPEARS TO HAVE RECRUITED OTHER PROXIES, INCLUDING HOUTHI, WHO ARE NOW EXPECTED TO BE PART OF THIS ATTACK.
HOW LARGE IN SCALE DO YOU THINK WE COULD SEE THIS RESPONSE?
>> YOU CANNOT PREDICT IT.
I REMEMBER CASES IN THE PAST WHERE THEY RESPONDED IMMEDIATELY OR WITHIN SEVERAL DAYS, AND THERE WERE OTHER CASES, QUITE PROMINENT ONES, WHEN THEY RESPONDED ONLY AFTER SIX WEEKS, SO, IT WOULD BE ANYTHING IN BETWEEN.
BASICALLY, WE ARE PREPARED.
WE ARE THANKFUL FOR THE AMERICAN DEPLOYMENT, VERY HEAVY DEPLOYMENT IN THE REGION, IN THE AIR AND ON THE -- ON THE SEA.
AND ON THE GROUND IN NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES, AND THE READINESS TO SUPPORT ISRAEL IN THIS ATTEMPT TO BLOCK THIS ATTACK.
THE -- WHAT WILL FOLLOW AFTER THE ATTACK WILL DEPEND ON ITS RESULTS.
IF MORE THAN FEW ISRAELI CITIZENS WILL BE KILLED, IT MIGHT LEAD TO ANOTHER RESPONSE THAT WILL GRADUALLY DRAG US INTO A FULL-SCALE REGIONAL WAR.
I DON'T THINK THAT WE HAVE INTEREST TO HAVE IT RIGHT NOW.
AND I WILL NOT RECOMMEND IT TO THE IRANIANS, AS WELL, BUT IT'S BEYOND OUR CONTROL.
IT CAN HAPPEN IN THE COMING DAYS OR WEEKS.
>> WITH THE U.S.
THERE, OBVIOUSLY, SENDING BATTLESHIPS TO THE REGION.
WE HAVE THE CENTCOM COMMANDER THAT IS THERE AS WE SPEAK.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES JUST SPOKE TO KING ABDULLAH OF JORDAN, AND THERE HAD BEEN SOME SPECULATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT HE WOULD ASK IF NEED TO BE USE JORDANIAN AIR SPACE, AS I NOTED EARLIER, IT WASN'T JUST THE U.S. THAT HELPED THIS WART SOME OF THOSE PROJECTILES, IT WAS REGIONAL COUNTRIES, AS WELL, INCLUDING JORDAN.
DO YOU EXPECT THE SAME RESPONSE FROM THEM AND OTHER NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES, IF, IN FACT, WE DO SEE ISRAEL RECEIVING FROM MULTIPLE FRONTS STRIKES SIMILAR TO WHAT WE SAW IN APRIL?
>> THE ATTACK MIGHT BE MORE COMPLICATED, IT MIGHT TAKE PLACE IN SEVERAL DIRECTION, WHICH WILL NEED MORE FORCE.
EVEN THE IRANIANS, THEY WERE BASICALLY DEFEATED IN MID-APRIL, AND THEY MIGHT TRY TO IMPROVE THEIR PERFORMANCE TO MAKE IT MORE SIMILAR TO THEIR SUCCESS IN SAUDI ARABIA SEVERAL YEARS AGO.
BUT THE AMERICAN AND THE NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES, THE DEPLOYMENT, REALLY HELPS TO TRY TO -- TO DEFEAT IT, AS WELL, AND ONLY TIME WILL TELL HOW SUCCESSFUL IT WILL BE.
I HOPE IT WILL BE SUCCESSFUL.
ASSASSINATION ITSELF IS WHAT CAUSED MORE CONCERN AMONGST ISRAEL'S ALLY, IN PARTICULAR, THE UNITED STATES, WHICH SAYS THAT IT WAS NOT GIVEN A HEADS UP IN TERMS OF WHAT ISRAEL MAY OR MAY NOT DO AND BE RESPONSIBLE FOR.
YOU AS PRIME MINISTER, AS DEFENSE MINISTER, AS CHIEF OF STAFF, YOU ORDERED TARGETED ASSASSINATIONS, THIS HAPPENED DURING YOUR WATCH, TOO.
IN YOUR VIEW, WAS THAT A SMART CALCULATED MOV TO MAKE AT THIS POINT, GIVEN THE STAGE OF THE FIGHTING IN GAZA, AND WHETHER OR NOT ISRAEL MAY HAVE INDEED BEEN ON THE PRECIPICE OF A HOSTAGE AND CEASE-FIRE DEAL?
>> AS YOU MENTIONED, BIANNA, ISRAEL DID NOT ADMIT OR TOOK RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS ATTACK, SO IT'S SOMEWHAT SPECULATIVE WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING, BUT LET ME SAY THE FOLLOWING.
OUR FORMER HEADS OF SECRET SERVICE ARE CLAIMING THAT THEY PROPOSED TO NETANYAHU SIX TIMES IN THE LAST EIGHT OR TEN YEARS TO GET RID OF THE WHOLE HAMAS LEADERSHIP IN ONE STRIKE.
AND NETANYAHU CONSISTENTLY REJECTED IT, BASED PROBABLY ON HIS POLICY THAT HAMAS IS AN ASSET FOR UNEXPLAINABLE REASONS, AND THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS A LIABILITY, OTHER THAN THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
SO, HE COULD BE KILLED BY ISRAELIS YEARS AGO QUITE EASILY.
AND HE PROBABLY COULD HAVE BEEN KILLED BY ISRAEL HALF A YEAR OR A YEAR FROM NOW.
WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, I THINK THAT THE MOST URGENT CHALLENGE FOR ISRAEL IS TO BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES.
AND TO ACHIEVE THIS OBJECTIVE, THE FACT THAT HANIYEH WAS KILLED DID NOT HELP, TO SAY THE LEAST.
>> AS YOU KNOW, THAT HAS INCREASED THE CONCERN THAT IN THE PRIME MINISTER, WHAT MANY WOULD ASSUME HIS QUEST TO STAY IN POWER, HE MAY BE INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO SABOTAGE THE HOSTAGE DEAL.
THAT APPEARS TO BE THE TAKEAWAY FROM THE FRUSTRATING CONVERSATION, AS IT WAS DESCRIBED, A TOUGH TALK, BETWEEN PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU LAST WEEK, ESPECIALLY FOLLOWING THE HANIYEH ASSASSINATION.
THE UNITED STATES OBVIOUSLY REITERATING THAT IT WILL DEFEND ISRAEL IN THE FACE OF AN IRANIAN ATTACK, BUT PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID THIS, THAT HE RAISED HIS VOICE AND THAT HE WANTS A DEAL REACHED WITHIN A WEEK TO TWO WEEKS.
THAT'S REPORTING THERE.
AND THERE'S CLEAR DAYLIGHT BETWEEN THE PRIME MINISTER AND HIS OWN DEFENSE ESTABLISHMENT, JUST, FOR EXAMPLE, OVER THE WEEKEND, DEFENSE SECRETARY LLOYD AUSTIN IN A READOUT WITH HIS CALL WITH DEFENSE MINISTER GALLANT, GALLANT HIMSELF REITERATED THIS, HE SAID, HE EMPHASIZED HIS COMMITMENT TO ENSURING THE RETURN OF HOSTAGES HELD BY HAMAS IN GAZA, AND HIGHLIGHTED THE CRITICAL TIMING AS IT RELATES TO ACHIEVING AN AGREEMENT, CHANNEL 12 IN ISRAEL PUBLISHED ON FRIDAY, A REALLY DRAMATIC DISCUSSION THAT OCCURRED LAST WEEK BETWEEN NETANYAHU, RONAN BARR, THE SHIN BET CHIEF, AS WELL, AND HERE'S WHAT RONAN BARR SAID, HE SAID, IT FEELS THAT THE PRIME MINISTER DOES NOT WANT THE OUTLINE THAT IS ON THE TABLE.
IF THIS IS, INDEED, THE MEANING, TELL US.
FINALLY.
THE MU SAD CHIEF SAID, THIS IS THE DEAL, IF WE HESITATE, WE MAY MISS THE OPPORTUNITY.
WE HAVE TO TAKE IT.
I'M SAYING IT BECAUSE IT DOES APPEAR TO BE UNPRECEDENTED, THE NATURE WHERE YOU'RE SEEING A DIVISION PUBLICLY BETWEEN THE DEFENSE APPARATUS IN THIS GOVERNMENT AND THE PRIME MINISTER HIMSELF, SPECIFICALLY ON THE ISSUE RELATED TO THE HAS DANIELS.
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN SOMETHING LIKE THIS BEFORE?
>> YEAH, LET ME SAY A FEW THINGS.
FIRST, TO MAKE A COMMENT TO OPPOSITION, THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE WITHOUT HANIYEH, BUT IT'S NOT CLEAR WHETHER THE FACT THAT HE WAS KILLED AT THE MOST CRITICAL POINT FOR -- >> YES, THE TIMING.
>> THAT -- THAT DOESN'T HELP.
I THINK THAT YOU SHOWED SUCH A KIND OF A DEEP UNDERSTANDING OF OUR SITUATION, YOU HARDLY NEED ME.
I HAVE MUCH WORSE ENGLISH THAN YOURS, AND YOU BASICALLY COVERED THE WHOLE STORY.
IT'S TRUE, EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE SAID IS TRUE, THAT'S THE CASE.
THERE IS A BIG DEBATE IN ISRAEL, BASICALLY, ALL OUR DEFENSE ESTABLISHMENT FULLY AGREE WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ABOUT WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE ALL ALONG THE WAY IN THE LAST TEN MONTHS, WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IN REGARD TO THE HOSTAGES, WHAT ISRAEL REALLY NEEDS IS THE HOSTAGE DEAL, RIGHT NOW.
IF I WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT THE IRANIAN HEZBOLLAH KIND OF ATTACK WOULD BE EXECUTED ONLY TWO WEEKS FROM NOW, I WOULD RECOMMEND TO ACTIVATE THE DEAL RIGHT NOW.
IF IT'S POSSIBLE.
ISRAEL HAS A WIN-WIN SITUATION IN REGARD TO THIS DEAL.
ISRAEL HAS TO AGREE.
EVEN IF THE OTHER SIDE DOES NOT AGREE, AT LEAST WE WILL KNOW WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DETERIORATION TOWARDS REGIONAL WAR, BUT WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS A DEAL ON THE HOSTAGES, WE NEED IMMEDIATELY AS A RESULT OF IT, THE DEAL TO BRING BACK THE REFUGEES WITHIN ISRAEL, ISRAELIS NOT IN THEIR HOMES NOW, TO HAVE TIME FOR THE IDF TO REPLENISH, TO GIVE SOME HELP TO THE RESERVIST, AND TO DEPLOY THESE FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN PROPOSED ALMOST A YEAR RIGHT NOW TO STAND TOGETHER VIS A VIS THE OTHER REPRESENTATIVES, LED BY IRAN AND BACKED BY RUSSIA.
>> PRIME MINISTER, I'M SO SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU, WE ARE JUST OUT OF TIME, BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
REALLY -- >> YOU DID BETTER JOB THAT I COULD IN DESCRIBING THE SITUATION IN OUR LEADERSHIP.
>> I DOUBT IT, BUT WE WILL BE WATCHING AND MONITORING VERY CLOSELY AS THINGS DEVELOP THERE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> NEXT, IN A MOMENTOUS DEAL STRUCK BETWEEN MOSCOW AND SEVERAL WESTERN NATIONS, THE BIGGEST PRISONER SWAP SINCE THE COLD WAR HAPPENED LAST WEEK.
24 DETAINEES WERE RETURNED TO THEIR HOME SOIL, INCLUDING AMERICAN "WALL STREET JOURNAL" REPORTER EVAN GERSHKOVICH.
MANY RELEASED BY RUSSIA WERE OPPOSITION FIGURES CAPTURED FOR THEIR CRITICISM OF THE KREMLIN.
IN HER NEW BOOK, ANNE APPLEBAUM ARGUES THAT TODAY'S DICTATORS, THOUGH FRONTED BY ONE FIGURE, ARE HELD UP BY A SERIES OF COMPLEX NETWORKS.
AND SHE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THIS NE NO, MA'AM UNANIMOUS.
>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.
ANNE, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.
>> YOUR LATEST BOOK IS "AUTOCRACY IN: THE DEKE DAY TOMORROWS WHO WANT TO RUN THE WORLD."
THE WORLD INC SUGGESTS IT'S SORT OF A BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP.
EXPLAIN THAT.
>> SO, THE BOOK DESCRIBES A NETWORK, IT'S NOT AN ALLIANCE, AND NOT REALLY EVEN AN AXIS, IT'S A NETWORK OF DICTATORSHIPS THAT HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NATIONALALIST RUSSIA AND COMMUNIST CHINA AND VENEZUELA AND IRAN.
BUT THEY SHARE INTERESTS.
AND I WAS LOOKING FOR A META FORE TO DESCRIBE THEIR RELATIONSHIP, AND THE BEST ONE I COULD COME UP WITH IS A KIND OF BIG INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION, WHERE THEY HAVE THEIR OWN -- THEY EACH HAVE THEIR OWN POLICIES AT HOME, THEIR OWN INTERESTS, BUT THEY DO HAVE AN OVERALL SET OF GROUP INTERESTS, AND SOME OF THEM ARE FINANCIAL.
THEY DO DEALS IN ONE ANOTHER'S COUNTRIES, THEY SELL -- CHINA SELLS SURVEILLANCE EQUIPMENT TO THE MEMBERS OF AUTOCRACY INC, THE RUSSIANS SELL WEAPONS, SOMETIMES SUPPLY MERCENARIES.
BUT THEY ALSO -- THEY COOPERATE IN OTHER WAYS MILITARILY, IN -- IN INFORMATION AND IN SHARED NARRATIVES, AS WELL.
>> SO, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A PARTICULAR GROUP, PART OF AN AXIS OF RESISTANCE TO WESTERN LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES.
TELL ME WHO IS FIVE OR SIX TOP COUNTRIES IN THAT CAMP ARE.
>> WELL, THE THREE LARGEST ARE RUSSIA, CHINA, AND IRAN.
AND THEY'RE THE MOST IMPORTANT.
THEY ARE THE MOST AGGRESSIVE.
AND THEY HAVE THE MOST, YOU KNOW, THE MOST INFLUENCE AROUND THE WORLD.
I WOULD ADD TO THAT VENEZUELA AND CUBA IN LATIN AMERICA.
NICARAGUA.
SOME OF THESE ARE LESS IMPORTANT COUNTRIES.
IN AFRICA, THERE'S A GROUP OF COUNTRIES THAT ARE ALREADY VERY HEAVILY INFLUENCED BY RUSSIA, SO, CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC, OR MALI, IN MY BOOK, I WRITE A LOT ABOUT ZIMBABWE, WHICH IS A COUNTRY THAT INTERESTS ME BECAUSE I KNOW -- I'VE MET SOME OF THE OPPOSITION LEADERS, AND I, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE REALLY BRAVE, EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE.
AND SO, YOU -- AND YOU BEGIN TO SEE HOW THIS GROUP IS WORKING TOGETHER, WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW THEY COME TO ONE ANOTHER'S AID.
>> YOU SAY THEY HAVE NOT MUCH IDEOLOGICALLY IN COMMON, AND, INDEED, A VERY LEFT WING SOCIALIST MADURO IN VENEZUELA IS PART OF THIS, AND SO IS PUTIN, WHO IS A RIGHT WING AUTOCRAT NATIONALIST.
YET WE'RE SEEING RUSSIA AND VENEZUELA, AT LEAST MADURO, COMING TOGETHER.
EXPLAIN WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE, AND HOW THAT FITS INTO THE THEME OF YOUR BOOK.
>> SO, THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME IDEOLOGY.
THEY DON'T USE THE SAME LANGUAGE.
AND YOU'RE RIGHT, THE VENEZUELAN REGIME DESCRIBES ITSELF AS A REGIME OF THE LEFT AND RUSSIA IS ALIGNED MORE WITH THE RIGHT, OR THE EXTREME RIGHT, OR FAR RIGHT, BUT THEY DO HAVE COMMON ENEMIES.
AND THEIR ENEMIES ARE ANYBODY WHO USES THE LANGUAGE OF RIGHTS, OF TRANSPARENCY, OF THE RULE OF LAW, YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE THEIR -- THOSE ARE THEIR ENEMIES, AND, OF COURSE, THAT MEANS THEIR MOST IMPORTANT ENEMY IS US, MEANING ALL OF US WHO LIVE IN THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD WHO USE THAT LANG WANL, BUT IT ALSO MEANS THEIR OWN OPPOSITION.
SO, WHETHER IT'S THE VENEZUELAN DEMOCRATIC OPPOSITION OR THE NAVALNY MOVEMENT IN RUSSIA, THEY SEE THEM AS -- AS OPPONENTS.
AND SO, THAT'S WHY YOU SEE, YOU KNOW, IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, STORIES OF PUTIN SENDING MERCENARIES TO VENEZUELA, TO HELP DEFEND MADURO.
MADURO HAS JUST RUN AN ELECTION, HE LOST VERY BADLY.
IT WAS ACTUALLY A LANDSLIDE FOR HIS OPPONENT.
THE OPPOSITION WAS WELL PREPARED AND THEY PROVED, THEY HAVE THE DOCUMENTS TO SHOW THAT IT WAS A LANDSLIDE.
HE'S NOT ACCEPTING THE ELECTORAL RESULT.
AND FOR PUTIN, THE IDEA THAT A DICTATOR LIKE MADURO, WHO SEEKS TO RULE WITH ABSOLUTE POWER LIKE HE DOES, WITH NO OPPOSITION, NO MEDIA, AND A TAME JUDICIARY, THE IDEA THAT HE WOULD LOSE TO AN ELECTION IS -- IS DAMAGING TO PUTIN.
AND SO, PUTIN SEEPS IT AS IN HIS INTEREST, MAYBE IT'S IN HIS FINANCIAL INTEREST, AS WELL, TO TRY TO HELP KEEP MADURO IN POWER.
AND PARTICULARLY IF WE GET TO A MOMENT WHEN THE VENEZUELAN ARMY IS NO LONGER RELIABLE, WHICH APPARENTLY SOME PARTS OF IT AREN'T, YOU COULD SEE MADURO RELYING ON THE TROOPS, OR, THE MERCENARIES OR THE WEAPONS OF OTHER COUNTRIES.
AND THAT IS HOW THESE REGIMES NOW WORK TOGETHER.
THEY ACTIVELY TRY TO KEEP ONE ANOTHER IN POWER.
AND AGAIN, IT'S NOT ABOUT SHARING AN IDEOLOGY, IT'S ABOUT DEFENDING THEMSELVES AGAINST -- AGAINST THE LANGUAGE AND THE ACTIONS OF -- OF THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD.
>> SO, IN THE GREAT SWEEP OF HISTORY, WHICH YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT, INCLUDING THE TWILIGHT OF DEMOCRACY, YOUR LAST BOOK, WE'VE MOVED AWAY FROM A GRAND IDEOLOGICAL COLD WAR OF COMMUNISM VERSUS FREE MARKET CAPITALISM, LET'S SAY, AND NOW LEFT/RIGHT HAVEN'T BECOME PARTICULARLY USEFUL, BUT WE SAW BOTH IN YOUR BOOK, PEOPLE WHO WERE ANTI-DEMOCRATIC ALIGNING WITH EACH OTHER, AND NOW IN THIS BOOK, PEOPLE WHO ARE AUTOCRATIC.
HOW ARE THEY RELATED?
>> THEY'RE RELATED.
I DON'T WANT TO CONFUSE EVERYTHING.
I THINK THE WORLD OF GENUINE AUTOCRACY, OF DICTATORSHIP IS DIFFERENT, EVEN FROM THE LIBERAL WORLD.
I DON'T THINK WHAT HAPPENS IN THE UNITED STATES OR EUROPEAN COUNTRIES IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT HAPPENS IN RUSSIA OR CHINA, BUT I DO THINK THERE IS A KIND OF BATTLE OF IDEAS GOING ON, AND IT IS BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE A POWERFUL EXECUTIVE, A, YOU KNOW, A LEADER WHO HAS NO CHECKS AND BALANCES.
YOU KNOW, CLOSED STATES AGAINST PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT THERE SHOULD BE CHECKS AND BALANCES, THERE SHOULD BE THE RULE OF LAW, CITIZENS SHOULD HAVE MORE INFLUENCE OVER THEIR -- OVER THEIR GOVERNMENTS.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOW A KIND OF CONTEST BETWEEN OPEN SOCIETIES AND CLOSED SOCIETIES.
>> WAIT, WAIT, I'M GOING TO INTERRUPT YOU HERE, BECAUSE I'M HEARING WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, AND THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF ECHOES IN TRUMP IN WHAT YOU JUST SAID, WHICH IS ABOVE THE RULE OF LAW, AND FINDING IT -- DO YOU FEEL THAT THAT'S INFECTING U.S.
POLITICS AND CAN YOU EVEN PIN IT ON THE TRUMP PHENOMENON?
>> AH, IT IS ABSOLUTELY INFECTING U.S.
POLITICS.
I DON'T WANT TO CONNECT IT DIRECTLY TO THE AUTOCRATIC WORLD, ALTHOUGH I DO THINK THAT THE NARRATIVES, THE INFORMATION OPERATIONS THAT PUTIN HAS RUN IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN EUROPE OVER THE LAST YEARS HAVE HAD AN IMPACT.
THE IDEA THAT AUTOCRACY IS STABLE AND SAFE AND DEMOCRACY IS DIVIDED AND DEGENERATE, ALL THAT LANGUAGE THAT YOU CAN HEAR COMING OUT OF RUSSIA, COMING OUT OF EVEN SOME AFRICAN STATES, YOU CAN HEAR IT ECHO IN AMERICA VERY OFTEN, AND NOT BY PEOPLE WHO ARE SOMEHOW PAID BY THE RUSSIANS, IT'S NOT A SECRET OPERATION, BUT BY PEOPLE WHO ALSO BELIEVE IT.
YOU NOW HAVE PART OF THE AMERICAN POLITICAL SPECTRUM, WHICH I THINK IS WILLING TO ACCEPT A LEAD WHOLE HAS FEWER CHECKS AND BALANCES, AN EXECUTIVE WHO HAS NO, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S NO NEUTRAL INSTITUTIONS WHO ARE ABLE TO STOP HIM, WHETHER IT'S -- WHETHER IT'S A NEUTRAL JUDICIARY, OR IF IT'S A NEUTRAL CIVIL SERVICE OR OTHER BODIES IN AMERICA.
THERE'S A TRADITION THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DOESN'T, YOU KNOW, ISN'T THERE TO GO AFTER THE PRESIDENT'S ENEMIES, WHICH IS WHAT PROSECUTORS WOULD DO IN AUTOCRACIES.
YOU HAVE SEEN PEOPLE AROUND TRUMP TALKING ABOUT CHANGING THAT.
SO, HAVING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT BE, YOU KNOW, OPERATE AT THE WILL OF THE PRESIDENT, OR, AT THE WHIM OF THE PRESIDENT, TO CARRY OUT, YOU KNOW, OPERATIONS AND INVESTIGATIONS ACCORDING TO HIS POLITICAL NEEDS.
THAT'S NOW HOW IT OPERATED IN THE PAST.
AND WE COULD, YOU KNOW, WE SEE INCREASINGLY ACCEPTANCE FOR THOSE KINDS OF IDEAS IN THE UNITED STATES, AND IT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS AT STAKE IN THE NOVEMBER ELECTION.
>> LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION THAT SOUNDS ODD, BECAUSE I KNOW WHERE YOU COME FROM AND YOU PROBABLY KNOW WHERE I COME FROM AND BELIEVING IN DEMOCRACY AND EVERYTHING ELSE, BUT WHY IS IT THAT THE UNITED STATES OR WE IN THE WEST HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY TO OTHER COUNTRIES, THIS IS THE WAY YOU SHOULD RULE YOURSELVES, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE STRONG LEADERS, YOU SHOULD HAVE THE MESSINESS OF DEMOCRACY, YOU SHOULD HAVE CHECKS AND BALANCES.
MAYBE THEY LOOK AROUND AND SAY, WAIT, WE'VE SEEN WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR SOCIETY.
ARE WE MORALALLY ON THE HIGH GROUND WHERE WE CAN SAY THEY'RE WRONG?
>> SO, FIRST OF ALL, YEAH, I DO WE THINK WE ARE.
AND I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH SAYING THAT, AND I DON'T THINK MOST AMERICANS SHOULD, BUT SECONDLY, YOU KNOW, THE DISINTEGRATION OF VENEZUELA, THE CRISIS THAT THE AUTOCRATIC REGIME HAS CREATED, YOU KNOW, WAS THE WEALTHIEST COUNTRY IN SOUTH AMERICA, NOW IT'S THE POOREST, IT CREATES MILLIONS OF REFUGEES.
MANY OF WHOM SHOW UP AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER IN THE U.S. YOU KNOW, VENEZUELA'S A DESTABILIZING FACTOR IN OUR HEMISPHERE AND OUR DIRECT AREA.
THESE COUNTRIES ARE A PROBLEM FOR US.
SO, IT'S NOT JUST THAT, YOU KNOW, WE -- THIS IS SOME KIND OF MORAL OR, YOU KNOW, PHILOSOPHICAL ISSUE ABOUT HOW PEOPLE SHOULD RUN THEIR COUNTRIES.
THERE IS A DIRECT CHALLENGE BEING PRESENTED TO US, TO OUR ALLIES, YOU KNOW, IN SOUTH AMERICA, IN EUROPE, IN THE MIDDLE EAST, BY THIS GROUP OF COUNTRIES.
AND IN ADDITION TO BEING A CHALLENGE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF IDEAS, IT IS ALSO A REAL GEOPOLITICAL CHALLENGE.
SO I -- I DON'T THINK WE CAN BE NEUTRAL IN THIS ARGUMENT, OR SAY WE DON'T CARE, YOU KNOW, LIVE AND LET LIVE, AND THOUGH I SHOULD ADD THAT I DO THINK THERE ARE OTHER MONARCHIES OR DICTATORSHIPS WHO WE CAN HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WHO DON'T HAVE THE SAME FOCUS ON UNDERMINING US OR DESTROYING US.
SO, I -- >> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LIKE SAUDI ARABIA.
>> YEAH, OR, YOU KNOW, MOROCCO, YOU KNOW, EVEN A COUNTRY LIKE VIETNAM, WHICH IS A COMMUNIST DICTATORSHIP DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE -- HAS NOT PUT AT THE CENTER OF ITS FOREIGN POLICY, YOU KNOW, THE UNDERMINING OF THE UNITED STATES OR THE -- OR THE UNDERMINING OF OTHER DEMOCRACIES IN ITS REGION.
SO, THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF DICTATORSHIPS.
I'M NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS THE COLD WAR AND THERE'S SOME KIND OF BERLIN WALL AND THERE ARE GOOD GUYS ON ONE SIDE AND BAD GUYS ON THE OTHER.
I'M TALKING ABOUT A VERY PARTICULAR GROUP WHO HAS A PARTICULAR, YOU KNOW, SET OF ATTITUDES TOWARDS US AND I DON'T THINK WE CAN JUST IGNORE IT.
>> YOU USE WORDS LIKE CLEP TOCK ARE SI, PEOPLE ARE STEALING MONEY, THAT SORT OF THING, CORRUPTION, AND ALSO AUTOCRACY.
IS THERE SOME INTERRELATION BETWEEN THE TWO?
>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S NOT EXACTLY THE SAME WORD.
I MEAN NOT JUST ORDINARY CORRUPTION, BUT GRAND-SCALE CORRUPTION.
YOU HAVE A STATE, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE RUSSIA OR A ZIMBABWE, WHERE A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE BECOME VERY RICH, ONLY BECAUSE OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO THE STATE, AND THEY ARE ABLE TO TAKE MONEY OUT OF STATE COFFERS AND PRIVATE TIZ IT AND TAKE IT ABROAD AND HIDE IT, SOMETIMES, IN WESTERN FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.
AND THAT'S WHAT I MEAN.
VERY OFTEN, WHEN YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF CORRUPTION, IT LEADS IN THE DIRECTION OF GREATER AND HARSHER AUTHORITARIANISM OR AUTOCRACY, BECAUSE ONCE PEOPLE HAVE THAT KIND OF MONEY, THEN THEY -- THEY -- >> IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED IN RUSSIA?
>> IT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN RUSSIA.
AND I TELL THAT STORY IN THE BOOK.
ONCE YOU HAVE THAT MONEY, YOU CAN'T TOLERATE IN YOUR SOCIETY PEOPLE WHO WANT TRANSPARENCY, OR PEOPLE WHO WANT THE RULE OF LAW.
YOU KNOW, NO, YOU NEED RULE BY LAW, MEANING THE LAW IS WHATEVER YOU SAY IT IS, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T RISK SOME JUDGE IN A COURT SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU BROKE THE LAW.
AND SO, VERY OFTEN, IN MANY CASES, NOT IN ALL OF THEM, BUT IN MANY CASES, THESE SOCIETIES ARE, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE RUN BY BILLIONAIRES, YOU KNOW, OR -- OR, YOU KNOW, BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE ENRICHED THEIR FAMILIES OR A GROUP OF BUSINESSMEN WHO ARE VERY CLOSE TO THEM.
>> AND THAT INCLUDES PUTIN, RIGHT?
>> ABSOLUTELY INCLUDES PUTIN.
THAT'S HOW PUTIN CAME TO POWER.
HE CAME TO POWER AS SOMEBODY WHO WAS PART OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY PROCESS THAT TOOK PLACE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE 1990s WHERE MONEY WENT OUT OF RUSSIA, IT WAS LAUNDERRED ABROAD.
IT WAS HIDDEN IN DIFFERENT PLACES AND THEN IT WAS BROUGHT IN ENRICHING SMALL GROUPS OF PEOPLE.
AND PUTIN WAS ONE OF THE LEADERS OF THAT SHIFT.
ESSENTIALLY, THEY PRIVATIZED THE MONEY, I MEAN, THEY TOOK TAXPAYER MONEY AND KEPT IT FOR THEMSELVES.
SO, YOU KNOW, SO -- AND VERY OFTEN, WHEN YOU'RE IN THAT KIND OF POSITION, YOU KNOW, AS I SAID, YOU CAN'T -- YOU DON'T WANT ANY OPPOSITION, BECAUSE THE OPPOSITION WOULD REVIEW THAT YOU HAVE BROKEN THE LAW, OR YOU'VE -- OR AT LEAST THAT WHAT YOU'VE DONE IS UNJUST.
AND THEY -- THEY DON'T WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT AND THEREFORE THEY -- THEY LOCK UP THEIR OPPONENTS.
PUTIN'S MOST IMPORTANT POLITICAL OPPONENT IN THE LAST DECADE WAS ALEXEI NAVALNY WHO WAS MURDERED IN A SIBERIAN PRISON CAMP, AND WHAT WAS NAVALNY?
HE WAS AN ANTI-CORRUPTION CAMPAIGNER.
HE DOESN'T TALK ABOUT DEMOCRACY AS HE TALKED ABOUT THEFT.
AND THAT WAS -- FIRST OF ALL, THAT'S WHAT VALUE BEGANIZED PEOPLE AND REALLY MOVED PEOPLE ALL ACROSS RUSSIA, AND THAT WAS ALSO WHAT REALLY ANGERED PUTIN AND FRIGHTENED PUTIN AND THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM.
BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT -- HOW MUCH MONEY THEY'VE STOLEN AND THEY NOW HOW UNFAIR THEIR SOCIETY IS, AND TO HAVE SOMEONE LIKE NAVALNY, SOMEONE AS ELOQUENT AS NAVALNY TALKING ABOUT IT GENERALLY THREATENED THEM.
>> LET ME READ YOU A SENTENCE YOU WROTE THAT STRUCK ME.
EVERYONE ASSUMES THAT IN A MORE OPEN, INTERCONNECTED WORLD, DEMOCRACY AND LIBERAL IDEAS WOULD SPREAD TO THE AUTOCRATIC STATES, BUT THEN YOU SAY, THE OPPOSITE HAPPENED.
IN FACT, A BROAD THEME OF YOUR LAST TWO BOOKS IS HOW GLOBALIZATION, WE THOUGHT, WAS GOING TO MAKE THE WORLD MUCH MORE INTERCONNECTED, AND SOMEHOW, WE MISSED SOMETHING BIG.
>> SO, WE -- WE UNDERSTOOD, WE BELIEVED THAT SOMEHOW OUR IDEAS WOULD, IN SOME KIND OF FREE MARKET OF IDEAS, WOULD FLOW FROM, AS WE USED TO SAY, WEST TO EAST, AND THEY WOULD INEVITABLY BE ADOPTED BY OTHER PEOPLE, AND THEY WOULD, YOU KNOW, SOMEHOW THE WORLD WOULD BE TRANSFORMED THROUGH INTEGRATION.
AND INSTEAD -- AND I SHOULD SAY, IT WASN'T JUST NAIVE AMERICANS WHO THOUGHT THAT, THERE WERE CHINESE AND RUSSIANS THAT THOUGHT THAT IN THE 1990s.
SO, IT WASN'T JUST A WESTERN IDEA.
BUT INSTEAD, WHAT HAPPENED WAS, PARTICULARLY IN RUSSIA AND IN THE POST-SOVIET WORLD, THE WAY THAT -- IT WASN'T REALLY CAPITALISM, BUT THE WAY MARKETS WERE CHANGED AND THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM WAS CHANGED ENRICHED VERY FEW PEOPLE, AND THEN IT WAS IN THEIR INTEREST TO REMAIN IN POWER.
SO, THE FLOW OF IDEAS DIDN'T WORK THE WAY THAT WE THOUGHT IT WOULD.
>> BUT DIDN'T THAT HAPPEN IN THE WEST, AS WELL, THAT SOMEHOW THIS GLOBALIZATION ENRICH A VERY FEW PEOPLE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE GOT LEFT OUT AND THE POWERFUL RICH STAYED IN POWER?
>> THAT IS -- THAT'S VERY TRUE.
AND, AGAIN, THAT'S PART -- I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE ONLY REASON -- NOT THE ONLY EXPLANATION FOR THE BACKLASH THAT WE'RE SEEING, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK IT'S MORE CULTURAL THAN ECONOMIC, BUT THERE'S -- THE AUTOCRATIC WORLD PLAYS A ROLE IN THAT, AS WELL.
THE SHIFT IN THE NATURE OF THE ECONOMY, THE RAPID DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES, THE RAPID SOCIAL CHANGES, ALL OF THAT LEFT A LOT OF PEOPLE FEELING CAST ASIDE OR LEFT OUT, BUT ALSO, ANY ERA OF MAKE PEOPLE LOOK FOR A SINGLE LEADER, OR AN AUTOCRAT, OR SOMEONE WHO CAN GUARANTEE THEIR SECURITY.
WHEN EVERYTHING IS CHANGING, PEOPLE BECOME MORE OPEN TO AUTOCRATIC NARRATIVES, AND I THINK THAT'S TRUE AS MUCH IN THE WESTERN WORLD AS IT IS IN THE YOU A CATTIC WORLD.
>> WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING TO FIGHT THIS BIG TREND?
>> FIRST OF ALL, WE SHOULD RECOGNIZE IT AND NAME IT AND UNDERSTAND IT.
SECONDLY, WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT CLEANING UP OUR OWN ACT, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE ASKED SEVERAL TIMES ABOUT, YOU KNOW, AREN'T WE LIKE THAT, TOO, AND THE ANSWER IS YES.
WE SHOULD CLEAN UP OUR OWN INTERNAL WAY OR FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS WORK, TO STOP THE MONEY LAUNDERING, STOP THE SECRECY, WE SHOULD MAKE OUR OWN POLITICAL -- THE NONE OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM MORE TRANSPATIENT.
AGAIN, IT'S THE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY, THE OPAQUENESS OF OUR -- THE FINANCIAL WORLD AND THE POLITICAL WORLD THAT I THINK IS VERY -- IS DANGEROUS.
INTERNATIONALLY, WE SHOULD WORK ON OUR ALLIANCES, WE SHOULD REINFORCE THEM.
AND WE CAN WORK -- MANY OF THESE PROBLEMS CAN BE WORKED ON TOGETHER.
THE UNITED STATES IS SO MUCH STRONGER WHEN IT WORKS TOGETHER WITH ALLIES, WHETHER IT'S IN UKRAINE OR WHETHER IT'S IN THE MOST RECENT PRISONER SWAP, WHICH HAPPENED THANKS TO THE COOPERATION OF GERMANY, BUT ALSO POLAND, AND SEVERAL -- AND SEVERAL OTHER STATES.
THINKING ABOUT OURSELVES AS A MEMBER OF THIS GLOBAL COMMUNITY THAT WANTS TO PROTECT THIS SET OF VALUES, I THINK, IS A GREAT GUIDE FOR FOREIGN POLICY.
IT DOESN'T EXPLAIN EVERYTHING, AGAIN, IT'S NOT THE COLD WAR, IT'S NOT LIKE WE CAN IDENTIFY IMMEDIATELY WHO OUR PARTNERS ARE, YOU KNOW, JUST BY THE KIND OF LANGUAGE THAT THEY USE, BUT UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS A GLOBAL CONFLICT IS THE BEGINNING OF CHANGE.
>> ANNE APPLEBAUM, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
APPRECIATE IT.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR NOW.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.
AND GOOD-BYE FROM NEW YORK.
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