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> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
> W.H.O. IS CALLING FOR A MORATORIUM ON BOOSTERS UNTIL AT LEAST THE END OF SEPTEMBER.
THE BATTLE OVER BOOSTER SHOTS.
WE DISCUSS THE SCIENCE AND THE MORALITY WITH EPIDEMIOLOGIST LARRY BRILLIANT AND GERMAN PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIAL CARL LAUDERBACH.
> THEN --
THE FACTS ARE MUCH DIFFERENT THAN WHAT HAS BEEN PORTRAYED.
ANDREW CUOMO FACES DOWN A POSSIBLE IMPEACHMENT.
LAURA KOETS GUIDES US THROUGH WHAT COULD HAPPEN NEXT.
> AND --
WE KILLED OSAMA BIN LADEN, THE ONLY LEADER THEY HAD EVER KNOWN.
> PLUS --
THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE IS KEEPING YOURSELF TOGETHER MENTALLY.
PROFESSIONAL CYCLIST TELLS US ABOUT HIS ALTERNATE TOUR DE FRANCE, AN 18-DAY, 3,000-MILE RIDE THROUGH THE COUNTRYSIDE ALL ALONE.
> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND, THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.
MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD HAVE YET TO GET A SINGLE SHOT OF THE COVID VACCINE, BUT IN COUNTRIES LIKE ISRAEL, FRANCE AND GERMANY, SOME VULNERABLE CITIZENS WILL SOON BE GETTING THEIR THIRD.
THESE THREE COUNTRIES ARE GOING DIRECTLY AGAINST PLEAS FROM THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, WHO CALLED FOR A MORATORIUM ON BOOSTER SHOTS UNTIL AT LEAST THE END OF SEPTEMBER.
WE SHOULD NOT ACCEPT COUNTRIES THAT HAVE ALREADY USED MOST OF THE GLOBAL SUPPLY OF VACCINES USING EVEN MORE OF IT WHILE THE WORLD'S MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE REMAIN UNPROTECTED.
THE GERMAN HEALTH MINISTRY CHOICE, SAYING, QUOTE, WE WANT TO PROVIDE THE VULNERABLE GROUPS IN GERMANY WITH THE PRECAUTIONARY THIRD VACCINATION AND AT THE SAME TIME SUPPORT THE VACCINATION OF AS MANY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD AS POSSIBLE.
WELL, HERE TO DISCUSS THE SCIENCE AND THE ETHICS AROUND ALL OF THIS ARE GERMAN POLITICIAN AND PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERT CARL LAUDERBACH AND EPIDEMIOLOGIST LARRY BRILLIANT WHO ARE WORKED ON THE GLOBAL ERADICATION OF SMALL BOX.
DR. BRILLIANT, LET ME BEGIN WITH YOU BECAUSE BEFORE WE GET INTO THIS THIRD BOOSTER SHOT, CAN YOU JUST GIVE US SOME SPECIFICS AND MORE INFORMATION ON WHAT IT IS EXACTLY?
IS IT MORE OF THE SAME, THE FIRST TWO?
YES, THE CURRENT BOOSTER SHOT IS MORE OF THE SAME.
I THINK SOON WE'LL BE GETTING BOOSTERS THAT ARE SPECIFIC FOR DIFFERENT AGES, SPECIFIC FOR DIFFERENT DOSES, SPECIFIC FOR DIFFERENT VARIANTS.
WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW, IF IT WAS MODERNA OR PFIZER OR J&J, IT IS MORE OF THE SAME.
AND ALONG THOSE LINES, THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF CONFUSION ABOUT THE NEED FOR A BOOSTER RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THERE HAD BEEN HEADLINES THAT PEOPLE COULD GO FOR A YEAR OR TWO PERHAPS WITH THOSE FIRST TWO VACCINATIONS, THOSE FIRST TWO SHOTS WITHOUT NEEDING A BOOSTER, THAT THE EFFICACY RATE WAS HIGH ENOUGH.
IS IT DELTA THAT CHANGED THE NARRATIVE HERE?
YES.
SO, THERE'S THREE DIFFERENT KINDS OF VACCINE EFFICACY.
A VACCINE DOES THREE THINGS.
WE WANT IT TO DO THREE THINGS.
WE WANT IT TO KEEP YOU FROM GETTING IT, GETTING THE DISEASE.
WE WANT IT TO KEEP YOU FROM GIVING IT, SPREADING IT.
AND WE WANT TO KEEP YOU FROM GETTING REALLY, REALLY SICK.
THESE VACCINES ARE PHENOMENAL AT THE MIDDLE.
THEY KEEP US FROM GETTING SICK.
VACCINE EFFICACY IS IN THE 95% IS NOT UNHEARD OF.
BUT AS FAR AS GETTING IT, THERE ARE MORE BREAK THROUGHS CERTAINLY WITH DELTA THAN THERE HAVE BEEN WITH PREVIOUS VARIANTS.
AND AS FAR AS GIVING IT, IT PROBABLY REDUCES TRANSMISSION THAT YOU WOULD NORMALLY HAVE ONLY BY 50% RATHER THAN 100%. I THINK THE ISSUE REALLY IS THAT THERE'S AN EPIDEMIOLOGICAL PATH AND THERE'S AN EQUITY PATH.
AND OFTEN THEY OVERLAP.
SOMETIMES THEY CONFUSE EACH OTHER.
RIGHT NOW WE HAVE TWO GROUPS OF PEOPLE THAT WE NEED TO GET VACCINE TO.
FIRST AND FOREMOST THOSE IN THE DEVELOPING WORLD, THE POOR WORLD, THAT HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET VACCINATED.
I LISTENED TO DR. TEDRHYS, I RESPECT HIM VERY GREATLY, I AGREE WITH HIM.
WE NEED TO STOP AFFORDING VACCINES TO COUNTRIES THAT HAVE PURCHASED FOUR OR FIVE TIMES WHAT THEIR NEED SEEMS TO BE.
AT THE SAME TIME, THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE PEOPLE OVER THE AGE OF 70 AND ARE IMMUNOCOMPROMISED AND GOT THEIR VACCINE SIX MONTHS AGO OR MORE.
THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT ONLY AT RISK OF GETTING IT, BUT THEY'RE AT RISK OF BECOMING VARIANT PRODUCING FACTORIES.
I HEARD MY COLLEAGUE SAY FALSE CHOICE, YOU COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER.
LET ME ASK YOU THAT, THEN, DR. LAUDERBACH, IS THIS A THIRD CHOICE?
IS THIS A CASE OF GETTING THIRD BOOSTERS OR WAITING UNTIL EVERYBODY GETS THEIR THIRD SHOT, IS THERE A SCENARIO WHERE WE CAN SEE THAT VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE WORLD MAY START RECEIVING A THIRD SHOT WHILE ALSO MORE VACCINES ARE GOING INTO THE ARMS OF PEOPLE THAT HAVEN'T EVEN HAD ONE SHOT?
I WOULD THINK SO.
FIRST OF ALL I WOULD LIKE TO SAY HELLO TO DR. BRILLIANT.
AND I COULD NOT AGREE WITH HIM MORE, THE WAY HE HAS DESCRIBED BASICALLY WHAT THE VACCINES ARE CAPABLE OF PERFORMING WHEN IT COMES TO THE DELTA VARIANT.
SO, WHAT IS THE SITUATION IN WHICH WE ARE CURRENTLY AND ALSO OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, WE GERMANY DOES HAVE ROUGHLY SPEAKING THE OLDEST POPULATION IN GERMANY.
A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF THEIR POPULATION HAS BEEN VACCINATED, AND WE NOW SEE THE NECESSITY OF A BOOSTER IMMUNIZATION IN THOSE THAT ARE PARTICULARLY OLD AND DO HAVE DISEASES THAT MAKE THEM IMMUNOCOMPROMISED.
SO, WHAT WE DO NOT WANT IS BASICALLY AS PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN FULLY VACCINATED AND WHO DIE NEVERTHELESS BECAUSE THAT WOULD REDUCE THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE VACCINE IN THE POPULATION.
WE HAVE HARD TIME TO CONVINCE IN PARTICULAR MIDDLE AGE AND YOUNGER PEOPLE TO TAKE THE VACCINE.
AND THE WORSE THING THAT WE COULD IMAGINE IS THAT WHILE WE TRY TO CONVINCE THE POPULATION TO TAKE THE VACCINE, WE SEE ELDERLY PEOPLE DYING WHO ARE FULLY VACCINATED.
THAT IS NOT REALLY WHAT WE WANT.
THAT'S NOT -- THAT IS NOT A CAMPAIGN FOR THE VACCINE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, WE WILL BASICALLY LIMIT THE BOOSTER VACCINE TO THOSE THAT ARE IN THE MOST DIRE NEED, THOSE THAT ARE IMMUNOCOMPROMISED AND WHO ARE OLD AND WE MAKE SURE TO GIVE AWAY AS MUCH VACCINE AS POSSIBLE.
IF YOU LOOK AT IT FROM A PER CAPITA BASIS, GERMANY IS THE COUNTRY WHICH SUPPORTS THE COVAX PROGRAM, THE MOST IMPORTANT PROGRAM THAT MAKES SURE THAT THE POOR DO GET VACCINE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.
GERMANY SUPPORTS THE COVAX PROGRAM ON A PER CAPITA BASIS MORE THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY THAT I DO KNOW OF.
GERMANY HAS PLEDGED TO DONATE 30 MILLION DOSES THROUGH COVAX.
YOU ARE RIGHT.
BUT IT'S HARD NOT TO ARGUE THAT COVAX HAS NOT LIVED UP TO THE EXPECTATIONS THAT MANY HAD FORESEEN EARLY ON INTO THIS PANDEMIC.
AND THERE IS A HUGE DISPARITY AMONG THOSE IN THE WORLD WHO ARE NOW DEBATING ABOUT WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE RECEIVING A THIRD SHOT AND THOSE WHO HAVEN'T HAD ACCESS TO ONE.
HOW DID WE GET HERE, DR.
LAUDERBACH, AND WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE TO PREVENT THIS?
AND I GUESS MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT CAN BE DONE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CATCH UP TO THAT EQUITY DISPARITY THERE AMONG THOSE WHO HAVE ACCESS?
I THINK THE EUROPEAN UNION HAS MADE A MAJOR MISTAKE ABOUT A YEAR AGO WHEN THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH INVESTMENT IN ESTABLISHING PRODUCTION CAPACITY FOR THE VACCINES.
WE HAVE BASICALLY ONLY INVESTED IN THE PRODUCTION CAPACITY THAT WAS NEEDED TO COVER EUROPE.
WE HAVE NOT DONE MUCH MORE.
THAT WAS, IN MY OPINION, A MAJOR MISTAKE, AND I HAVE SAID SO A YEAR AGO AND EARLIER.
SO, THAT IS WHERE WE CURRENTLY ARE.
I THINK WHAT WE CURRENTLY CAN DO IS BASICALLY WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER.
I MYSELF ALSO THINK THAT WE SHOULD MAKE THE PATENT AVAILABLE TO THE POOR COUNTRIES.
THAT IS A POSITION THAT IS NOT SHARED BY ANGELA MERKEL, WITH WHOM I AGREE ON MANY ISSUES.
AND REALLY WORKING TOGETHER WITH HER IS REALLY SUCCESSFUL AND A PLEASURE.
BUT HERE WE HAVE A DISAGREEMENT.
I DO THINK THAT THE PATENTS, MAKING THE PATENTS AVAILABLE TO POOR COUNTRIES SO THEY CAN PRODUCE THE VACCINES THEMSELVES, IN PARTICULAR THOSE VACCINES THAT ARE SOMEWHAT EASIER TO PRODUCE.
I'M MORE IN AGREEMENT WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THAN MY OWN ADMINISTRATION.
IT IS INTERESTING AND PUZZLING TO SEE THAT DISAGREEMENT THERE AMONG ALLIES AND THOSE WHO ARE FOCUSED SPECIFICALLY ON THE SCIENCE.
DR. BRILLIANT, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW YOU CAN ON THE ONE HAND MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT WE IF WE DON'T GET ENOUGH VACCINES FOR THOSE THAT HAVE YET TO HAVE ONE WE WILL SEE MORE AND MORE VARIANTS AND THEY CAN BE STRONGER THAN DELTA.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND WHEN SOMEBODY HEARS THAT COMPANIES ARE ADVISING THAT THIRD BOOSTER SHOTS BE GIVEN, THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO SAY I WANT ONE.
SO, WHERE DO YOU STAND HERE?
OF COURSE IT'S COMPLICATED, LIKE SO MANY THINGS.
BUT ONCE AGAIN, I AGREE WITH MY GERMAN COLLEAGUE.
I, FOR ONE, WOULD LIKE TO SEE US RETHINK COVAX.
I THINK SETH BERKELEY AND THE GROUP HAVE DONE A PHENOMENAL JOB WITH IT.
THEY DEPEND SO MUCH ON DONATIONS THEY CAN'T DO MORE THAN GIVE AWAY WHAT THEY GET.
BUT WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING IS GIVING AWAY PATENTS -- WE CAN ARGUE ABOUT THAT, YES OR NO.
WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING IS SELECTING 50 TO 100 COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD THAT HAVE SOME GOOD VACCINE MANUFACTURING CAPACITY, AND WE SHOULD BE EXPORTING VACCINE MANUFACTURING FACTORIES.
WE HAD THAT IN SMALLPOX, IN POLIO.
WE HAD REGIONAL MANUFACTURE OF THE VACCINES.
WE MUST UNDERSTAND THAT ONCE WE HAVE THE VACCINE, THE GAME DOESN'T END.
THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING.
WE HAVE TO GET THE VACCINE TO THE FINAL INCH OF 200-PLUS COUNTRIES.
IT'S AN ENORMOUS TASK, MUCH BETTER DONE IF THE VACCINE IS MADE LOCALLY.
AND I'M AWARE OF ALL THE PROBLEMS AND QUALITY CONTROL.
BUT THOSE CAN BE FIXED.
AND THE COMPANIES THAT HAVE THE PATENTS CAN INDEED CLAIM A ROYALTY.
LET THEM MAKE MONEY -- I DON'T CARE -- EXPORTING VACCINE MANUFACTURING FACTORIES AND CAPABILITIES BECAUSE NO SINGLE FACTORY WILL BE ABLE TO FILL THE BILL OF THE TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOSES OF VACCINE WE WILL NEED OVER THE NEXT THREE YEARS.
AND I DIDN'T WANT TO IGNORE YOUR QUESTION.
IF WE DON'T HAVE VACCINATION IN THE DEVELOPING WORLD AND THE WORLD THAT DOESN'T HAVE VACCINE, WE WILL CONTINUE TO RUN THROUGH THE GREEK ALPHABET AND PERHAPS HAVE TO ADD A DIFFERENT ALPHABET AFTER THAT WITH VARIANTS BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING TO STOP THIS VIRUS FROM REPLICATING, MUTATING, CREATING VARIANTS, UNLESS IT HITS A WALL OF VACCINATED PEOPLE AND THE DENSITY OF SUSCEPTIBLES IS REMOVED.
WE'RE NOT DOING THAT ADEQUATELY.
THAT'S WHY WE'RE HAVING THIS SHOWER OF VARIANTS.
YOU MENTIONED THE FINANCIAL ASPECT HERE, AND I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP BECAUSE I'M WONDERING, DR. BRILLIANT, IF YOU THINK THE MESSAGING HERE COULD HAVE BEEN MORE UNIFORM.
AND I'M SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT THE COMPANIES, PFIZER AND NOW MODERNA, SUGGESTING THAT A THIRD BOOSTER WOULD BE NEEDED.
THESE COMPANIES HAVE HAD RECORD REVENUES OVER THE COURSE OF THE PAST FEW MONTHS BECAUSE OF THESE VACCINES.
WE'VE SEEN THEM COME OUT AND SUGGEST THAT BOOSTERS SHOULD BE GIVEN SOONER RATHER THAN LATER, AND YET THE U.S. GOVERNMENT EARLY ON, AT LEAST JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, SAID, NO, NOT YET, WE'RE NOT THERE YET.
NOW THERE ARE REPORTS -- 'THE WASHINGTON POST' IS REPORTING THAT PERHAPS WE COULD HEAR FROM THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND THE FDA AUTHORIZING BOOSTER SHOTS FOR THOSE WHO ARE IMMUNOCOMPROMISED IN THE U.S. WITHIN JUST A FEW WEEKS.
SO, THIS COULD RAISE THE QUESTION FOR MANY IS THERE A FINANCIAL INCENTIVE FOR THESE COMPANIES TO BE SAYING THIS?
WHY AREN'T THE GOVERNMENT AND THESE COMPANIES ON THE SAME PAGE?
SO, WE HAVE ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE.
WE DON'T HAVE GOOD SCIENCE, BUT WE HAVE ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE OF ONE OR TWO INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE IMMUNOCOMPROMISED AND WHO HAD THE COVID VIRUS IN THEIR BODY FOR TEN MONTHS.
TWO CASES IN PARTICULAR.
AND OUT OF THAT CAME SOME OF THE WORST VARIANTS THAT WE HAVE.
IN FACT, THERE IS A CONCERN THAT PERHAPS EVEN THE VERY FIRST, THE ALPHA VARIANT IN THE UK, AROSE FROM ONE INDIVIDUAL WHO'S IMMUNOCOMPROMISED.
WHETHER THOSE ANECDOTES ARE E ILLUSTRATIVE, WE KNOW THE BASIC SCIENCE TELLS US IF INFECTION REACHES SOMEONE WHO HAS HIV AIDS AND IS IMMUNOCOMPROMISED, ON CHEMOTHERAPY, ALL THESE DIFFERENT REASONS, THE VIRUS GETS WOUNDED, IT DOESN'T GET KILLED AND IT CONTINUES TO MUTATE AND MORE VARIANTS ARE POSSIBLE.
SO, YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD GLOBAL EPIDEMIOLOGICAL REASON TO FIND THOSE PEOPLE.
USUALLY THEY'RE OVER 70, 75.
THEY ARE IMMUNOCOMPROMISED.
AND THEIR PRIMARY DOSE OF THE VACCINE IS WANING BECAUSE IT'S BEEN MORE THAN SIX MONTHS.
THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT I WOULD PIN ON THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES FOR TRYING TO PUMP THEIR STOCK.
BUT IF THEY DON'T START THINKING IN BIGGER TERMS, IF WE DON'T THINK ABOUT A CREDIT FACILITY IN THE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS, WHICH IS WHAT IT'LL TAKE TO MAKE THE HUNDRED FACTORIES ALL OVER THE WORLD, THEN WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO?
WE'RE ALREADY PAYING TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS FROM WHAT WE HAD IN THE ORIGINAL COVID.
IT'S NOT GOING TO GO AWAY.
THIS VIRUS WILL BE HERE FOREVER UNLESS WE FIGURE OUT A LARGE ENOUGH AND CREATIVE SOLUTION TO EMPOWER COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE WORLD TO MAKE VACCINE.
OTHERWISE JUST THE SUPPLY CHAIN OF GETTING VACCINES DELIVERED TO A CAPITAL CITY OUT INTO THE FIELD TO THE FINAL INCH, I DID IT IN THE SMALLPOX PROGRAM.
I WAS PART OF THE MALARIA, PART OF THE POLIO ERADICATION PROGRAM.
THIS IS A VERY DIFFICULT JOB.
YOU MAKE IT HARDER WITH ONLY FACTORIES IN DEVELOPED COUNTRIES.
AND YOU MAKE IT HARDER WHEN MILLIONS OF PEOPLE REFUSE TO GET A VACCINE WHEN THEY HAVE ACCESS TO ONE.
DOCTORS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, REALLY IMPORTANT CONVERSATION.
WE APPRECIATE IT.
THANK YOU.
> WELL, NOW DESPITE CALLS TO RESIGN FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN DOWN TO THE STATE ASSEMBLY SPEAKER, NEW YORK GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO IS REMAINING DEFIANT.
IT APPEARS IMPEACHMENT IS THE ONLY WAY THE GOVERNOR WILL LEAVE OFFICE, AND STATE LAWMAKERS ARE MOVING FULL SPEED AHEAD OF THE STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S REPORT CONCLUDED THAT CUOMO SEXUALLY HARASSED 11 WOMEN.
ALSO IN ALBANY TODAY, AN ANONYMOUS ACCUSER, ONE OF THE 11, FILED A CRIMINAL COMPLAINT WITH THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE DETAILING HER SEXUAL MISCONDUCT ALLEGATIONS AGAINST THE GOVERNOR.
LAURA COATS JOINS US NOW.
LAURA, I'M SO GLAD YOU ARE JOINING US HERE BECAUSE WHO BETTER TO TALK TO US ABOUT THIS THAN YOU, ESPECIALLY SINCE THIS HAS TURNED FROM A CIVIL PROBE TO PERHAPS EVEN A CRIMINAL ONE AFTER THIS CRIMINAL COMPLAINT WAS FILED.
HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THAT AND IS THIS A GAME CHANGER FOR THE GOVERNOR?
IT IS IN TERMS OF THE MOUNTING PRESSURE.
REMEMBER ONE OF HIS MAIN STATEMENTS HAS BEEN THAT THIS WAS THE FINDINGS OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE, INVESTIGATIVE PROBE BUT NOT A COURT OF LAW.
HE TRIED TO TALK ABOUT IT BEING THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION, TRIAL OF NEWSPAPER, TALKING ABOUT THE NOTIONS OF DUE PROCESS.
IT IS SOMEONE'S RIGHT TO PROFESS THEIR INNOCENCE AND WE DO HAVE THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE.
BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CRIMINAL CONTEXT HERE WHERE SOMEBODY NOW HAS THE BENEFIT OF MORE THAN 100-PAGE REPORT THAT TALKS ABOUT THE FINDINGS, FINDING THEM AS CREDIBLE WITNESSES, CREDIBLE VICTIMS OF THIS BEHAVIOR, IT BUTTRESSES THE CREDIBILITY EVEN IN THE CRIMINAL CONTEXT AS WELL.
SO NOW HE'S COMPETING AND FIGHTING IN MULTIPLE FRONTS, THE POLITICAL NOTION AS YOU MENTIONED IMPEACHMENT, BUT ALSO THE CIVIL WORLD WITH THE CIVIL CLAIMS AGAINST HIM AND NOW THE CRIMINAL CONTEXT.
JUST TO GROUND EVERYONE IN THE REALITY, THE ALLEGATIONS ARE LARGELY AROUND WHAT ARE CONSIDERED MISDEMEANOR OFFENSES, MEANING THE NON-CONSENSUAL OFFENSIVE TOUCHING.
THAT SEEMS TO BE THE SUBSTANCE OF THE CLAIM WE'RE NOW FACING AND THINKING ABOUT.
SO, THAT'S A MISDEMEANOR, NOT AS SERIOUS IN TERMS OF THE CRIMINAL CODE AS A FELONY.
BUT THAT'S ONLY ONE OF THE FIVE DIFFERENT PROSECUTORS WHO ARE EVEN LOOKING AT THESE ISSUES.
AND WE SHOULD NOTE THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS DENIED ALL OF THESE ACCUSATIONS.
BUT AS REPORTED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND THOSE WHO WERE ASSISTING IN THIS INVESTIGATION ALL OF THESE VICTIMS, THESE WOMEN, PROVED TO BE CREDIBLE FROM THEIR STANDPOINT OVER THE COURSE OF THESE FIVE MONTHS.
FOR THE WOMAN WHO FILED THIS LATEST CRIMINAL COMPLAINT, SHE TOLD INVESTIGATORS SHE HAD BEEN ASSISTANT TO THE GOVERNOR.
SHE TOLD INVESTIGATORS HE PULLED HER IN FOR A CLOSE HUG AND HE SLID HIS HAND UNDER HER BLOUSE AND CUPPED HER BREAST.
SHE DESCRIBED THAT IN GREAT DETAIL.
COULD WE SEE FROM THIS COMPLAINT PERHAPS EVEN AN ARREST?
WELL, WE CERTAINLY FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU REMEMBER, THE INVESTIGATIVE REPORT NOT ONLY FOUND HER TO BE CREDIBLE.
THEY FOUND THE GOVERNOR'S ACCOUNTS TO BE NOT CREDIBLE, WHICH IS VERY, VERY TELLING IN TERMS OF THE OVERALL EVALUATION OF HOW THEY SAW THAT.
THEY WERE WELL AWARE OF HIS DENIALS AT THE TIME.
THEY WERE WELL AWARE OF THE REFERRAL TO INTERNAL ORGANIZATION AND OFFICE TO COUNSEL, TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO BEST PROCEED.
AND KNOWING THAT THEY SAID THEY DID NOT FIND HIS DENIALS OR RECOLLECTION TO BE CREDIBLE.
THAT'S VERY, VERY TELLING.
BUT IN TERM OF AN ACTUAL CHARGE, AGAIN, MISDEMEANOR CONTEXT, IF THE PROSECUTORS IN THIS CASE FINDINGS AND LOOKING AT THAT REPORT AND MEETING WITH THE PERSON WHO TO US IS STILL ANONYMOUS AS THE FIRST EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT NUMBER ONE, IF THEY ALSO COME TO THE CONCLUSION IS CREDIBLE, THEY COULD PRESENT AN ARREST IN TERM OF AN ARREST WARRANT OR SOME SORT OF CHARGE FILED AGAINST THE GOVERNOR, WHICH OF COURSE PUTS THEM IN VERY DIFFICULT AND TOUGH WATER.
BUT AGAIN MISDEMEANORS IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN FELONY IN THE UNITED STATES AND MISDEMEANORS USUALLY HAVE A SIX-MONTH POTENTIAL IN TERMS OF INCARCERATION IF AT ALL.
THAT MIGHT BE THE ULTIMATE HERE.
ONE THING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL DID NOT DO, KEEP LOOKING TO HER TO DO, IS TO SAY WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT.
AND WHAT HER STATEMENT WAS, LOOK, IT'S UP TO THE GOVERNOR WHO HIMSELF COMMISSIONED THIS REPORT.
IT'S UP TO STATE ASSEMBLY WHO HAS CONTROL OVER THE IMPEACHMENT.
AND ULTIMATELY IT'S UP TO THE VOTERS WHO, OF COURSE, HE IS REPRESENTING AS THEIR GOVERNOR.
SO, ON ALL DIFFERENT FRONTS I THINK YOU HAVE THE ARREST POTENTIAL, THE MISDEMEANOR PROSECUTION POTENTIAL, BUT YOU CERTAINLY HAVE THE POLITICAL INEVITABILITY OF THIS BEING A SITUATION WHERE GOVERNOR CUOMO HAS LOST THE CONFIDENCE OF HIS PARTY.
AND WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC.
AND THE DELTA VARIANT, AS YOU SPOKE WITH DR. BRILLIANT ABOUT, BIANNA, WHERE THE STATE OF NEW YORK IS GOING TO HAVE TO LIKE EVERY OTHER STATE IN THIS COUNTRY AT LEAST HAVE TO FOCUS ON TRYING TO FLATTEN THE CURVE, RETURN TO NORMALCY.
IF HE DOESN'T HAVE THAT CONFIDENCE, CAN HE DO IT EVEN POLITICALLY EVEN WHILE HE FIGHTS CHARGES AGAINST HIM THAT MIGHT BE COMING.
AND HE WAS FACING THE NURSING HOME SCANDAL AS WELL PRIOR TO THIS REPORT LAST WEEK.
IT IS PECULIAR THOSE THAT HAVE FOLLOWED HIS CAREER FOR YEARS AND WHO HAVE SEEN HIM FOR MONTHS NOW WITH THESE VERY POPULAR PUBLIC PRESS BRIEFINGS TAPE A RESPONSE INSTEAD OF PUBLICLY COMING OUT FOR A PRESS CONFERENCE WITH THE RESPONSE.
IT SEEMED TO BE EDITED AND HIGHLY PRODUCED, PERHAPS LAWYERED UP.
I WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO JUST A SNIPPET OF IT BEFORE WE TALK ABOUT IT.
I DO KISS PEOPLE ON THE FOREHEAD.
I DO KISS PEOPLE ON THE CHEEK.
I DO KISS PEOPLE ON THE HAND.
I DO EMBRACE PEOPLE.
I DO HUG PEOPLE.
MEN AND WOMEN.
DID THIS SEEM TO YOU LIKE A PECULIAR DEFENSE?
HE WAS NOT SAYING WHAT HE DID WAS WRONG.
HE WAS SAYING THIS IS WHO HE HAS BEEN FOR YEARS AND EVERYONE HAS KNOWN THAT ABOUT HIM.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THESE ALLEGATIONS IN CHARGES DETAIL.
IT'S NOT JUST CALLING SOMEBODY BELLA OR KISSING THEM ON THE HAND.
NO.
AND THE WORD 'PECULIAR' IS ONE WAY TO DESCRIBE IT.
THE NOTION IS DISINGENUOUS.
HE'S NAVIGATING A MINE FIELD.
HE STEPPED ON SEVERAL OF THEM, TALKING ABOUT THIS THING OF GENERATIONAL OR CULTURAL CONFLICT IN SOME ASPECTS WHICH HE WAS NOT YET AWARE AT THE TIME.
THE SLIDE SHOW ISSUED HIM KISSING THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ON THE CHEEK AS WELL.
AGAIN, AS YOU'RE RIGHT, IF THESE ALLEGATIONS WERE ABOUT THE IDEA OF WHETHER HE CUPPED SOMEONE'S FACE AND KISSED THEM ON THE CHEEK AND PUBLICLY SAID CIAO BELLA OR REFERRED TO THEM AS A SWEETHEART, PERHAPS HE WOULD BE IN VERY DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GRABS THE BEHINDS, THE BUTTOCKS OF A PERSON, CUPPING THE BREASTS, NOT A FACE, OF A PERSON.
ALSO A STATE TROOPER SOMEONE OF THE 11 PEOPLE WHO GAVE STATEMENTS TO THE INVESTIGATORS.
AND IN A WORLD WHERE WE THINK ABOUT THE CREDIBILITY OF OUR POLICE OFFICERS, A WOMAN WHO IS ASSIGNED TO PROTECT AS A SECURITY DETAIL OF THE GOVERNOR, WHO SHE SAYS HAS BEEN SUBJECTED TO ASPECTS OF THIS, IS VERY, VERY TROUBLING.
AND HIS STATEMENTS ABOUT THE SORT OF IDIOSYNCRASIES OF HIS PERSONALITY OR HIS DEMEANOR DOES NOT HOLD A LOT OF WEIGHT.
BUT ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINTED OUT IS THE IDEA OF WHAT'S IN HIS CHECKING ACCOUNT, SO TO SPEAK, POLITICAL CHECKING ACCOUNT.
HE, I THINK, IS BANKING A GREAT DEAL ON THE ABILITY TO ESTABLISH THE RAPPORT HE DID OVER THE BETTER PART OF A YEAR WHILE THE NATION GRAPPLED WITH THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC.
HIS DAILY PRESS BRIEFINGS WERE IN STARK CONTRAST TO WHAT IS HAPPENING AT THE FEDERAL PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL, AND I THINK HE'S HOPING THAT WILL COUNTERACT ALLEGATIONS AGAINST HIM NOW.
THESE ARE 11 PEOPLE, OVER 160-SOMETHING WITNESSES, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF DOCUMENTS.
AS I SAID, HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO FIGHT AGAINST IT, BUT POLITICALLY IT'S UNTENABLE.
AS POPULAR AS HE THINKS HE IS, THERE ARE SOME THINGS HE CAN'T COUNTER AND THAT WOULD BE IMPEACHMENT, IF THERE ARE ENOUGH IN THE STATE ASSEMBLY THAT SUPPORT THAT AND IT APPEARS THAT IS THE CASE.
HOW QUICKLY COULD THAT UNFOLD?
INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, IT'S ALREADY AT BREAKNECK PACE AT THIS POINT.
WE'RE VERY WELL ACCUSTOMED TO IMPEACHMENT, EVERYONE HAS BECOME WELL VERSED.
OVER A LONG TERM OF NOT HAVING THEM, WE HAD TWO IN TWO YEARS.
BUT THE DIFFERENCE IN THE IMPEACHMENT AT A STATE GUBERNATORIAL LEVEL AS OPPOSED TO PRESIDENTIAL IS THAT A PRESIDENT CAN STAY IN OFFICE DURING AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL UNTIL HE IS CONVICTED AND/OR REMOVED.
IN NEW YORK, HOWEVER, THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL TRIGGERS A REQUIREMENT THAT THE GOVERNOR MUST TEMPORARILY RELINQUISH POWER TO THE SECOND IN COMMAND, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR.
HE CANNOT REMAIN THERE FOR THE DURATION OF THE TRIAL.
BY HAVING AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL IN AND OF ITSELF COULD HAVE THE IMMEDIATE EFFECT OF REMOVING HIM AT LEAST TEMPORARILY FROM POWER.
AND IF HE WERE ULTIMATELY CONVICTED AND REMOVED, WELL THEN THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, SECOND IN LINE, WOULD STEP UP FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE TERM, WHICH HE IS DUE TO BE THINKING ABOUT PERHAPS RUNNING AGAIN NEXT NOVEMBER FOR GENERAL ELECTION.
SO, A VERY, VERY PRECARIOUS TIME POLITICALLY AND OF COURSE THE WOMEN WHO HAVE COME FORWARD, IT'S ONE WAY OF LOOKING FOR ACCOUNTABILITY FOR IN A VARIETY OF WAYS.
FAST MOVING SITUATION.
LAURA, WE APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHTS.
THANKS.
AND YOUR EXPERTISE AS WELL.
THANK YOU.
> WELL, WE ARE FAST APPROACHING THE 20th ANNIVERSARY OF THE 9/11 ATTACKS, WHICH KILLED NEARLY 3,000 PEOPLE.
OSAMA BIN LADEN, THE MASTERMIND BEHIND THE ATTACKS WAS KILLED IN 2011 WHEN U.S. SPECIAL FORCES RAIDED HIS HIDEOUT IN PAKISTAN.
MY NEXT GUEST WAS THE ONLY PERSON TO BE GRANTED ACCESS TO THAT COMPOUND BEFORE IT WAS DEMOLISHED.
PETER BERGEN SAT ACROSS FROM THE MAN HIMSELF IN 1997 FOR CNN.
BERGEN IS NOW OUT WITH THE NEW BIOGRAPHY OF THE FOUNDER OF AL QAEDA CALLED 'THE RISE AND FALL OF OSAMA BIN LADEN,' AND HE IS JOINING ME FROM NEW YORK.
PETER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING ON.
YOU SPENT YEARS RESEARCHING BIN LADEN AND YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED SINCE, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE U.S.
GOVERNMENT AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN 2017 RELEASED 470,000 COMPUTER FILES THAT NAVY SEALS HAD SEIZED FROM HIS COMPOUND DURING THAT RAID.
WHAT WAS THE MOST SURPRISING REVELATION THAT STOOD OUT TO YOU?
BIANNA, THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.
I THINK ONE OF THE SURPRISING THINGS FOR READERS OF THE BOOK WILL BE THAT BIN LADEN WAS HIGHLY RELIANT ON HIS TWO OLDEST WIVES TO DO HIS THINKING FOR HIM.
TWO OF HIS WIVES, HIS OLDEST WIFE, HAD PHDs, ONE IN CHILD PSYCHOLOGY, ANOTHER IN GRAMMAR.
AND ONE OF THEM WAS EIGHT YEARS OLDER THAN BIN LADEN AND REALLY KIND OF WAS SOMEBODY THAT HE GREATLY ADMIRED, RESPECTED.
AND ONE OF THE BIG THINGS, BIANNA, THAT HE WAS CONCERNED ABOUT WAS THE ARAB SPRING, WHICH WAS HAPPENING IN THE FINAL MONTHS OF HIS LIFE.
AND HE WAS HOLDING ALMOST DAILY MEETINGS WITH HIS WIVES TO THINK ABOUT HOW CAN I REACT TO THE ARAB SPRING.
HE WAS WELL AWARE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO WERE PROTESTING IN THE STREETS OF TUNISIA AND EGYPT AND LIBYA WERE NOT HOLDING UP BANNERS OF OSAMA BIN LADEN OR INFLUENCED BY AL QAEDA'S IDEAS.
THEY WERE JUST DEMANDING HUMAN RIGHTS.
HE WAS HOLDING THESE MEETINGS WITH HIS WIVES AND ADULT DAUGHTERS.
THEY COMMITTED THIS TO A BIN LADEN FAMILY JOURNAL.
IT WAS PART OF THE 470,000 FILES YOU JUST REFERENCED THAT WERE RELEASED.
AND, YOU KNOW, THEY THOUGHT THAT BIN LADEN COULD REALLY TAKE A BIG ROLE IN THE ARAB SPRING IF HE KIND OF CAME OUT WITH THE RIGHT SPEECH.
OF COURSE THIS WAS A TOTAL DELUSION.
BUT IT WAS A DELUSION THAT THEY ALL HAD AND THAT HE SPENT MANY NIGHTS IN THE FINAL WEEK OF BIN LADEN'S LIFE TRYING TO PUZZLE OUT WHAT AL QAEDA'S LEADER SHOULD SAY.
ALSO TALK ABOUT HOW DELUSIONAL HE WAS IN TERMS OF THE AFTERMATH OF 9/11 AND NOT THINKING THAT THE U.S. WOULD RESPOND THE WAY IT DID.
YEAH, THE WHOLE -- YOU KNOW, PEARL HARBOR WAS A GREAT TACTICAL VICTORY FOR IMPERIAL JAPAN BUT IT WAS A STRATEGIC FAILURE.
I THINK 9/11 WAS VERY SIMILAR FOR BIN LADEN.
HE THOUGHT HE WOULD ATTACK ON 9/11, THE UNITED STATES WOULD PULL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST.
HE UNDERESTIMATED THE AMERICAN RESPONSE WHICH WAS OVERTHROWING THE TALIBAN IN THREE MONTHS, DECIMATING MUCH OF AL QAEDA, INVADING IRAQ UNDER FALSE PRETENSES, INCLUDING THAT AL QUAEDA AND IRAQ WERE ALIGNED.
NONE OF THIS WAS INTENDED BY BIN LADEN.
HE LATER PUT A GLOSS ON THIS SAYING 9/11 WAS A CLEVER PLOT TO BRING AMERICANS INTO THE MIDDLE EAST AND BANKRUPT AMERICANS.
THAT WAS CERTAINLY NOT HIS INTENTION.
20 YEARS LATER WE ARE PULLING OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.
WE'RE TURNING INTO A NON-COMBAT MISSION IN IRAQ.
BUT BIN LADEN NEVER SAW ANY OF THIS.
HE REALLY BELIEVED HIS OWN PROPAGANDA, RATHER A DANGEROUS THING TO DO, WHICH IS THE UNITED STATES WAS A PAPER TIGER AND THAT WE WOULD -- AMERICANS WOULD PULL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST AFTER 9/11.
THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
I WANT TO GET TO -- YOU TOUCHED ON AFGHANISTAN TODAY AND THE U.S. PULLING OUT.
BUT BEFORE WE DO THAT, I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE MISSTEPS THAT THE U.S. ALSO MADE AND THE MISCALCULATIONS THAT THE U.S.
MADE FOLLOWING THE 9/11 ATTACK BECAUSE YOU SAID THAT INSTEAD OF NECESSARILY GOING AFTER BIN LADEN AND HIS ESCAPE FROM TORAH BOAR RAH, YOU HAD THE DEFENSE SECRETARY RUMSFELD AND OTHER OFFICIALS FOCUSED ON SADDAM HUSSEIN.
EXACTLY.
BIN LADEN WAS AT THE BATTLE FOR SEVERAL WEEKS AND THIS WAS KNOWN TO AMERICAN OFFICIALS.
BUT DONALD RUMSFELD WAS SO PREOCCUPIED WITH THE IRAQ WAR THAT HE HAD A LENGTHY MEETING TO DISCUSS THE IRAQ WAR PLAN WITH THE TOP LEADERS IN THE PENTAGON.
AND THAT WAS THE VERY DAY THAT BIN LADEN ESCAPED AND WENT ON TO LIVE FOR ANOTHER DECADE.
SO, I THINK THAT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.
INTERESTINGLY BY MY COUNT THERE WERE MORE JOURNALISTS THAN THERE WERE AMERICAN SOLDIERS.
AND I THINK THAT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.
EVEN AS THE WORLD TRADE CENTER WAS SMOLDERING, THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S SITES WERE MOVING TO IRAQ.
FAST FORWARD TO TODAY AND THE WITHDRAWAL OF U.S. TROOPS, SOMETHING YOU CALLED THE WORST SPEECH THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS MADE DURING HIS ADMINISTRATION SO FAR WHEN ANNOUNCING THE RATIONALE FOR LEAVING AFGHANISTAN.
WHAT DID YOU TAKE ISSUE WITH IN PARTICULAR?
I MEAN, PRESIDENT BIDEN AND SECRETARY BLINKEN PRESIDED OVER A VERY SIMILAR DECISION IN IRAQ AT THE END OF DECEMBER 2011.
IT WAS A STRATEGIC NARCISSISM THAT AMERICANS HAVE, THAT IF WE OUTSET OURSELVES, THE CONFLICT IS OVER.
THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN IS ACCELERATING AS WE DRAW DOWN.
AND ON AUGUST 31st, WHEN THE LAST AMERICAN TROOPS WILL BE OUT EXCEPT A SMALL PRESENCE PROTECTING THE U.S. EMBASSY, AND YOU KNOW, PREDICTABLY THE TALIBAN JUST IN THE LAST 24 HOURS SEIZED A PROVINCIAL CAPITAL FOR THE FIRST TIME.
THEY'VE TAKEN 200 DISTRICTS IN THE COUNTRY OUT OF 400 OR SO.
THIS MOVIE IS SOMETHING WE'VE SEEN BEFORE.
WE NEVER LEARN FROM OUR OWN HISTORY, EVEN OUR RECENT HISTORY.
THE TALIBAN ISN'T NECESSARILY ISIS, BUT I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE SIMILAR ADVANCES BY THE TALIBAN AS WE SAW WITH ISIS IN IRAQ AFTER THE AMERICAN PULLOUT IN 2011.
AND THE AMERICANS MAY WELL DECIDE THEY NEED TO GO BACK IN BECAUSE IF THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT AND ARMY KIND OF COLLAPSES AND AL QAEDA, THERE ARE PLENTY OF REPORTS OF AL QAEDA BEING ON THE FRONT LINES, THAT WILL BE A VERY HARD THING TO LIVE WITH.
AND THE TALIBAN JUST TODAY CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE KILLING OF THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT'S TOP MEDIA ADVISER AS WELL.
BUT THIS SPEAKS TO THE ARGUMENT THAT IF THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT AND MILITARY CAN'T DEFEND ITSELF, WHAT MORE CAN THE U.S.
DO AFTER 20 YEARS?
AND I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP FOR YOU OF AN INTERVIEW I CONDUCTED JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO WITH ABDULLAH ABDULLAH WHO WAS OVERSEEING THE PEACE TALKS WITH THE TALIBAN AND HIS VIEW AT THE TIME OF WHAT THE AFGHAN MILITARY AND FORCES COULD DO.
I WOULD SAY THAT'S, GOD WILLING, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.
THEY MAY TRY.
THEY MAY COME TO THE MIDDLE SECTOR AND WE MAY FACE SOME SETBACKS, BUT TALIBAN OFFER A MILITARY SOLUTION, THAT'S A BIG MISCALCULATION ON THEIR PART.
THAT'S THE HISTORY.
AFGHANISTAN HAS CHANGED, AND THEY NEED TO EVALUATE.
THE RISKS OF THAT.
SO, IS THAT NOT A MISCALCULATION ON ABDULLAH ABDULLAH'S PART IN SUGGESTING THAT THE GOVERNMENT WOULD BE ABLE TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THE TALIBAN?
I MEAN, LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE JUST A FEW WEEKS INTO THE U.S.
TROOPS LEAVING.
WELL, THE TALIBAN MAY NOT BE ABLE TO TAKE OVER THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.
THE REASON THE AFGHAN NATIONAL ARMY, AFGHAN SPECIAL FORCES, WHICH ARE SOMEWHAT EFFECTIVE, THERE ARE U.S. AIR STRIKES, NOT CLEAR IF THAT WILL CONTINUE.
THERE ARE ALSO LOCAL MILITIAS.
THERE ARE GROUPS THAT DON'T WANT TO BE RULED BY THE TALIBAN.
HE MAY BE RIGHT IN THE SENSE THAT TALIBAN WILL NOT BE ABLE TO TAKE OVER THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, BUT THEY'VE DONE PRETTY WELL IN THE WEEKS SINCE.
GOING BACK TO YOUR FIRST QUESTION, WE'RE STILL IN SOUTH KOREA 75 YEARS AFTER THE END OF THE KOREAN WAR AND THERE ARE 25,000 PLUS AMERICAN TROOPS THERE.
SO, THE IDEA THAT 20 YEARS IS A RELATIVELY SHORT TIME -- IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, 20 YEARS IS NOT A LONG TIME NECESSARILY.
AND I THINK THIS WAS AN UNFORCED ERROR BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.
WE DIDN'T HAVE TO SAY WE'RE LEAVING COMPLETELY BECAUSE NOT ONLY ARE WE LEAVING, ALL OUR NATO ALLIES ARE LEAVING, ALL THE CONTRACTORS ARE LEAVING.
NONE OF THIS WAS REALLY NECESSARY AND THERE WAS NO BIG POLITICAL CONSTITUENCY IN THE UNITED STATES DEMANDING THAT WE JUST PULL OUT.
AND THE PROGRESS THE WOMEN AND GIRLS HAVE MADE OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS IS NOT TRIVIAL EITHER.
AND THAT IS SOMETHING MANY HAVE NOTED AS WELL AND ARE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT IN THE MONTHS AND YEARS AHEAD.
AS FOR BIN LADEN HIMSELF, THERE ARE SOME REALLY FASCINATING DETAILS THAT YOU TALK ABOUT IN THIS BOOK.
ONE, HIS SANITY, RIGHT?
WE HEARD THE STORY ABOUT IDENTIFYING HIM AND NOT NECESSARILY KNOWING EXACTLY HOW TALL HE WAS.
BUT ANOTHER ISSUE WAS THAT HIS BEARD COLOR HAD CHANGED, THAT IT HAD BEEN DYED.
AND IT CONFUSED TROOPS BECAUSE THEY EXPECTED TO SEE THAT HE HAD GRAY HAIR.
YEAH, YOU KNOW, I ACTUALLY WENT TO THE COMPOUND BEFORE IT WAS DEMOLISHED BY THE PAKISTANI MILITARY.
AND IN THE BEDROOM THERE WAS JUST FOR MEN HAIR DYE.
SO, HE WAS CERTAINLY DYEING HIS HAIR, DYEING HIS BEARD.
HERE HE IS IN '97.
BY THE TIME HE DIED WHEN HE WAS 54, HE LOOKED A LOT OLDER THAN 54.
SO, HE LIKED TO MICROMANAGE HIS PERSONAL APPEARANCE, PARTICULARLY IN THE MEDIA.
SO, HE WAS DYEING HIS HAIR AND DYEING HIS BEARD IN ORDER TO LOOK LIKE A YOUNGER GUY.
MY FINAL QUESTION TO YOU AND ONE THAT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO ANSWER WHEN WE TRY TO GET INTO THE MIND OF SOME OF THE MOST RUTHLESS KILLERS IN THE WORLD.
BUT HE CAME FROM A VERY RICH FAMILY, NOT NECESSARILY AS IDEOLOGICAL AS HE BECAME.
HIS FAMILY TRAVELLED TO THE WEST, HE HAD 55 SIBLINGS.
THERE ARE PHOTOS THAT YOU SHOW IN THE BOOK OF HIS FAMILY VACATIONING IN SWEDEN, SOME WEARING BELL-BOTTOMS, SOME LOVING WESTERN MUSIC.
HOW DID HE BECOME THE MAN HE DID?
I THINK IT WAS A LONG PROCESS.
I MEAN THAT'S WHAT THE BOOK KIND OF OUTLINES.
I DON'T DO A LOT OF ARMCHAIR PSYCHOLOGY.
HIS FATHER DIED WHEN HE WAS ONLY TEN AND HE ONLY HAD FIVE MEETINGS WITH HIS FATHER.
YOU MENTIONED THE 55 SIBLINGS.
HE BECAME VERY RELIGIOUS AT A YOUNG AGE AND THROUGH A PROCESS THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE -- IT WAS A LONG PROCESS OF RADICALIZATION.
THERE WERE OFF RAMP WHEN IS HE COULD HAVE DECIDED NOT TO GO DOWN THE PATH OF FOUNDING AL QAEDA OR TURNING AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.
HE DIDN'T CHOOSE TO TAKE THOSE PATHS.
AND, YOU KNOW, HE BECAME THE PERSON HE WAS.
BUT NONE OF IT WAS INEVITABLE.
THE BOOK TRIES TO EXPLAIN HOW HE GOT THERE.
IT WAS A LONG PROCESS THAT TOOK PLACE OVER DECADES.
YEAH, YOU DESCRIBE HIM MEMORIZING THE KORAN AS JUST A CHILD AS WELL.
PETER BERGEN, IT'S A FASCINATING DIVE INTO THE MIND OF ONE OF THE MOST RUTHLESS KILLERS IN HISTORY.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
WE APPRECIATE IT.
THANK YOU, BIANNA.
> IMAGINE BEATING THE TOUR DE FRANCE.
NOW IMAGINE DOING THAT WITHOUT ANY OF THE PERKS, NO MECHANICS, NO HOTELS, NO CREWS AT ALL.
WELL, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT AUSTRALIAN PROCYCLIST DID THIS SUMMER, DUBBED IT THE ALT TOUR DE FRANCE.
HE BEAT EVERYONE TO THE PUNCH BY FIVE DAYS.
HE DID IT ALL FOR WORLD BICYCLE RELIEF, A NON-PROFIT THAT FINDS BICYCLES FOR PEOPLE WHO NEED THEM.
THANKS, BIANNA, JOINING ME NOW THE LOUGHLIN MORTON, A PROFESSIONAL CYCLIST.
I THINK THE MOST BASIC QUESTION PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE AFTER LEARNING WHAT YOU DID IS WHY.
WHY TAKE ON SUCH A GRUELING PHYSICAL FEAT?
IT WAS A LITTLE BIT OF A CHALLENGE FROM JONATHAN BOILEST, WHO IS, I GUESS THE BOSS.
HE KIND OF PUT THE QUESTION TO ME, LIKE, COULD IT BE DONE?
AND I GUESS I HAVE A BIT OF A BACKGROUND IN TAKING ON, LIKE, SOME SORT OF ULTRA CHALLENGES ON THE BIKE.
AND, YEAH, IT WAS THE SORT OF CHALLENGE THAT, LIKE, YOU KNOW, JUST SPARKED SOMETHING IN ME THAT I WAS LIKE I'VE GOT TO DO THIS NOW.
YOU HAVE PHOTOS OF SOME ABSOLUTELY SPECTACULAR VISTAS THAT YOU WERE AT.
AND OBVIOUSLY THESE ARE JUST A SLIVER OF WHAT YOU ACTUALLY WITNESSED.
AND THIS WAS WHILE KIND OF ADJACENT TO THE TOUR.
YOU GOT TO A POINT WHERE YOU WERE AHEAD OF THEM.
SO, SOME OF THESE ROADS WERE ACTUALLY JUST QUIET.
THEY WEREN'T FILLED WITH SPECTATORS.
THEY WEREN'T FILLED WITH THE HOOPLA THAT GOES WITH THE TOUR DE FRANCE.
WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?
IT'S AMAZING.
AND TO BE HONEST THAT'S WHY I ENJOY CYCLING SO MUCH IS BEING OUTSIDE.
AND YOU KNOW THIS INCREDIBLE NATURAL SPACES THAT ARE FREE TO ANYONE TO ACCESS.
SO, I THINK I WAS, FOR ME, A LOT OF WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR OUT THERE WAS TO BE ALONE IN THESE INCREDIT PLACES BASICALLY TRAVELING BY BIKE.
IT'S A VERY UNIQUE AND AMAZING FEELING.
TELL ME THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT THE TOUR DE FRANCE.
THIS IS, LIKE, SO NICE.
SO, I DO A LOT OF MOTIVATION AND INSPIRATION JUST FROM BEING OUT IN THAT SETTING.
AND IT WAS -- I WASN'T REALLY, LIKE, SPENDING ANY TIME ON MY PHONE.
I WAS PRETTY DISCONNECTED FROM EVERYTHING THAT WAS GOING ON OUTSIDE.
SO, I THINK THE COMBINATION OF JUST, YOU KNOW, THE DIFFICULTY OF WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO, THE PLACE I WAS DOING IT, AND THEN SORT OF EXPERIENCING IT JUST SORT OF FOR MYSELF IS, YEAH, BEAUTIFUL.
THERE WASN'T ACTUALLY A GUARANTEE THAT YOU EITHER COULD BEAT THE TOUR OR EVEN FINISH THIS BECAUSE YOU'RE DOING ON A BIKE WHAT THEY GET TO DO ON BUSES AND PLANES AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHICH IS GO TO THE NEXT RACE.
YEAH.
I MEAN, WHEN I SAID, YEAH, I THINK I CAN DO IT, IT WAS MORE LIKE, YES, I WANT TO TRY.
AND I THINK THE REALITY IN MY HEAD, I WAS KIND OF PUTTING IT LIKE 60/40 IT CAN PROBABLY BE DONE JUST BECAUSE, AS YOU SAID, IT'S SUCH A LONG DISTANCE.
AND THERE'S SO MANY UNCONTROLLABLE ELEMENTS, WHICH MEANS THAT THERE'S JUST A LOT OF TIME FOR THINGS TO GO WRONG.
AND ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE TAKING IT ALL ON YOURSELF, THE STYLE, I GUESS I WAS DOING IT UNSUPPORTED.
SO, I WAS LOOKING OUT FOR MY OWN FOOD AND SLEEPING OUTSIDE IN MY CAMP SETUP.
AND MECHANICAL ISSUES AND ALL THAT, THAT WAS ALL ON ME.
SO, THAT LEAVES A LOT OF SPACE FOR THINGS TO GO WRONG.
AND YEAH, PLENTY OF THINGS DID GO WRONG AND IT WAS JUST A MATTER OF DEALING WITH IT.
FOR THE FIRST COUPLE OF DAYS THERE, PEOPLE WERE KIND OF SUCCESS BECAUSE YOU HAD SOME PROBLEMS WITH YOUR KNEES.
YES.
AND THEN YOU DID SOMETHING WAY OFF THE BOOKS, WHICH IS SWITCH TO BASICALLY LIKE BERKENSTOCK SANDALS.
WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT?
YEAH, I HAD ISSUES WITH MY KNEE ON THE FIRST DAY, WHICH IS BASICALLY THE WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN.
AND THE EVENT WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE ABOUT PROBLEM SOLVING.
AND I KIND OF TRIED TO NURSE MY KNEE THROUGH THE NEXT DAY BUT QUICKLY REALIZED I HAD TO CHANGE SOMETHING BECAUSE IT WAS JUST BECOMING IMPOSSIBLE TO PEDAL.
AND IT WAS WHEN I WAS ACTUALLY TRYING TO FIND SOME FOOD FOR DINNER, I STUMBLED ACROSS THIS BIKE FOR SALE AT A SUPERMARKET WITH FLAT PEDALS.
I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW WHAT, MAYBE IF I CAN MOVE MY FEET AROUND A BIT AND FIND A MORE COMFORTABLE POSITION AND NOT BE LOCKED IN, MAYBE IT WILL HELP.
IT WAS LIKE A BIT OF A SHOT IN THE DARK.
AND I SOME SANDALS WITH ME THAT I WAS USING FOR OFF THE BIKE.
SO, I THREW THEM ON MY -- I ACTUALLY HAD TO BUY THIS BIKE BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T SELL ME THE PEDALS.
SO, IT WAS LIKE A 50-YEAR-OLD SET OF PEDALS.
BUT SURE ENOUGH THE KNEE DID FIX ITSELF.
AND I HAD TO MAKE A MODIFICATION TO THE SANDAL BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT IT RUBBING, KNOWING YOU'RE SPENDING 12 HOURS IN SANDALS YOU HAVE TO FIND OUT HOW TO MAKE THEM COMFORTABLE.
AND THEN IT JUST BECAME LIKE I DIDN'T WANT TO CHANGE IT.
WHEN SOMETHING'S WORKING, IT WAS JUST LIKE, ALL RIGHT, I'LL STICK WITH THIS NOW.
AND AT THE TIME IT SEEMED QUITE NORMAL TO ME.
I COULD SEE FROM THE OUTSIDE IT LOOKED LIKE, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?
IT'S RIDICULOUS.
BUT IN MY MIND IT WAS LIKE, OH, THIS IS THE PERFECT SOLUTION.
SO, THERE YOU ARE IN SANDALS RIDING 12 HOURS A DAY, WHICH MOST PEOPLE IN THEIR LIFE WILL NEVER DO ONCE, AND YOU'RE DOING IT DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY.
SO, I KIND OF WANT TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT GOES THROUGH YOUR MIND AND HOW YOU OVERCOME THESE PROBLEMS BECAUSE INEVITABLY THROUGHOUT ANY NORMAL BIKE RIDE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE A POINT WHERE THEY FEEL LOW.
FOR YOU --
YES.
-- YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF AT THE VERY AT LEAST A 10, 12-HOUR DAY AND YOU KNOW TECHNICALLY IT'S GOING TO GO ON FOR ANOTHER COUPLE WEEKS WITH LITERALLY TWO MOUNTAIN RANGES IN BETWEEN.
YEAH.
IT'S -- IT'S LIKE A HUGE MENTAL BATTLE.
THAT'S THE BIGGEST PART OF THE CHALLENGE IS KEEPING YOURSELF TOGETHER MENTALLY, TO BE ABLE TO BASICALLY -- YOU'VE JUST GOT TO KEEP PEDALING.
I WISH THERE WAS A SIMPLE KEY.
EVERY DAY IT'S LIKE INEVITABLY YOU HAVE A BIG BLOW UP AND I FOUND OUT AFTER THREE OR FOUR DAYS YOU KIND OF REALIZE THAT, OKAY, IT'S NOT GOING TO GET BETTER.
EVERY DAY THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME PROBLEM.
AND JUST ACCEPTING THAT AND BEING PREPARED FOR WHEN IT COMES AND THEN WHEN THAT MOMENT COMES TRYING TO MINIMIZE THE IMPACT IT HAS.
SO, IT'S LIKE, I NEED TO SWITCH MY MINDSET AND BASICALLY JUST TRYING TO GET A POSITIVE MINDSET.
SO, SOMETIMES I WOULD CALL MY WIFE AND JUST CHECK IN ON WHAT SHE'S DOING ON A REGULAR DAY.
I'M NOT TRYING TO TALK ABOUT WHAT I'M DOING.
I'M JUST LIKE WHAT ARE YOU DOING?
WHAT ARE YOU COOK LG FOR DINNER?
JUST TO NOT REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THE SITUATION BUT PUT EVERYTHING IN PERSPECTIVE AGAIN.
YOU ARE, AS YOU SAID, SPENDING SO MUCH TIME IN YOUR OWN HEAD.
AND WHEN YOU OVERCOME THESE DIFFICULT MOMENTS DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY, IT'S VERY TIRING AND I ALWAYS COME OUT OF A BIG CHALLENGE LIKE THIS FEELING LIKE, OKAY, YOU KNOW, I'M ACTUALLY SOMEWHAT STRONGER THAN I THOUGHT I WAS.
FOR PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW THE RACE, THERE'S THIS GIANT HILL, MOUNTAIN, CALLED MOUNT VONTU.
IT'S ABOVE THE TREELINE.
IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S ON MARS SOMEWHERE.
YOU HAD THIS TO CLIMB IT TWICE.
TRUE.
IT JUST SEEMED, YOU KNOW, STATISTIC TO PUT THAT IN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BIKE RACE.
BUT NOT ONLY DO THE RIDERS DO IT, A LOT OF THESE RIDES PEOPLE JUST LITERALLY DON'T MAKE THE TIME CUT.
THEY JUST CAN'T DO IT.
AND WHEN YOU'RE TACKLING OR WHEN YOU'RE AT THE BASE OF ONE OF THESE MOUNTAINS, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO YOURSELF?
THE CHALLENGING THING FOR ME CLIMBING, I THINK I DID 200K BEFORE I GOT TO THE FIRST ASSENT.
AND IT WAS RAINING THE WHOLE DAY.
AND, LIKE, IT'S A PART OF FRANCE WHERE I HAD THE THOUGHT IN MY HEAD THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE RAINING ANYMORE.
I WAS GETTING FAR ENOUGH SOUTH THAT I SHOULD BE OUT OF THE RAIN NOW.
THIS IS UNFAIR.
AND THEN I HAD THREE FLAT TIRES AND ENDED UP HAVING TO PATCH MY TUBE WITH THE MATTRESS KIT FOR THE BLOW UP MATTRESS I HAD BECAUSE I HAD RUN OUT OF TUBES.
SO, THAT WAS A BIG STRESS.
AND THEN I HIT VONSU LIKE LATE IN THE AFTERNOON.
THEN IT WAS LIKE, OKAY, NOW I NEED TO GET UP AND OVER THIS THING.
BUT THE SUN WOULD COME OUT AND I IMAGINED TO FIND A COUPLE OF TUBES IN THE CANAL AT THE BOTTOM BEFORE I CLIMBED IT.
SO, INTERESTINGLY, OF THAT WHOLE DAY, IT JUST BECAME PART.
OH, JUST GOT TO GET OVER THIS THING NOW AND THEN I'LL CAMP ON THE OTHER SIDE AND THEN I'LL DO THE NEXT SIDE IN THE MORNING.
SO, IT'S INTERESTING THAT WHAT WOULD PROBABLY BE THE MOST DIFFICULT -- OR DEFINITELY BE THE MOST DIFFICULT PART OF THE STAGE TURNED OUT TO BE THE MOST ENJOYABLE PART OF MY DAY.
SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS -- YOU DID THIS AND YOU RAISED AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FINAL TOTAL IS -- FOR WORLD BICYCLE RELIEF.
WHEN YOU JUXTAPOSE WHAT YOU'RE ABLE TO DO WITH WHAT A BICYCLE MEANS FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING THEM BECAUSE OF THIS CHARITY, HOW DOES THAT PLAY IN YOUR HEAD?
YEAH, IT'S REALLY INCREDIBLE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I'M, LIKE, I LOVE BIKES MORE THAN ANYTHING.
THEY HAVE CHANGED MY LIFE AND THEY GIVE ME SO MUCH ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS THAT I CAN'T IMAGINE LIVING WITHOUT THE BIKE IN MY LIFE.
AND THAT'S COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO I HAD EVERY OPPORTUNITY AND EVERY PRIVILEGE AS A KID AND STILL THE BIKE MEANS MORE TO ME THAN ANYTHING.
SO, TO BE ABLE TO GIVE THAT GIFT TO PEOPLE WHO KNOW THEM AND JUST JOIN THEM, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, THAT'S 90% OF WHAT I DO.
IT'S LIKE THEY CAN USE IT TO JUST ACCESS EDUCATION OR CUT DOWN THE TIME IT TAKES TO GET WATER, WHICH CAN ALLOW THEM TO SPEND MORE TIME AT SCHOOL.
AND IT JUST -- IT'S SO EMPOWERING.
SO, TO PLAY LIKE A SMALL PART IN BEING ABLE TO DO THAT AND ME USING MY BIKE TO ENABLE THAT TO HAPPEN, YEAH, I FEEL LUCKY THAT I WAS ABLE TO PLAY A ROLE IN THAT.
AND I'M REALLY THANKFUL TO EVERYONE WHO DONATED AND GOT BEHIND THE RIDE.
IT'S BASICALLY A BIG THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO DONATED.
RIGHT NOW WE'RE ALSO IN A PERIOD WHERE WE ARE SEEING ATHLETES REALLY TAKE THE FIRST STEP IN TALKING ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH, WHETHER IT'S NA OMI OSAKA OR SIMONE BILES.
AND I WONDER ABOUT HOW IT IS THAT YOU GET THROUGH AN EVENT LIKE THIS WHEN YOU KNOW THAT THE LOWS YOU'RE GOING THROUGH ARE LOWER THAN MOST OF US WILL EVER GO THROUGH?
WHAT DO YOU KEEP IN MIND OR HOW DO YOU FRAME IT TO HAVE SOME SORT OF CONFIDENCE THAT IT WILL GET BETTER, THAT YOU WILL REACH A HIGHER POINT?
YEAH, IT'S INTERESTING.
I THINK WHEN YOU'RE IN THE RIGHT SITUATION, YOU'RE VERY AWARE OF THE PRESSURE BECAUSE YOU HAVE A SCENE DIRECTOR WHO IS ASKING YOU TO DO A JOB.
AND YOU KNOW THAT'S SORT OF WHAT YOU'RE PAID TO DO, TO GO THERE AND PERFORM THIS TASK.
SO, THERE'S A PRESSURE ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS TO BASICALLY GET SOMETHING OUT OF YOURSELF THAT YOU'RE 90% SURE YOU CAN DO.
IT'S STILL 10% OF THE ATMOSPHERE AND THE ANXIETY AROUND IT.
SO, THE WAY I APPROACH WHAT I WAS DOING WAS TO BASICALLY REMOVE THAT IDEA OF PRESSURE.
AND I THINK IF I'D KNOWN HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE FOLLOWING WHAT I WAS DOING AND JUST THE AMOUNT OF SUPPORT I WAS GETTING, IT WOULDN'T HAVE HELPED ME BECAUSE, LIKE, IT'S A LOT OF PRESSURE THEN TO KEEP DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING.
AS A SPECTATOR, IT'S A VERY STRANGE THING.
WE JUST COLLECTIVELY SEEM TO EXPECT EITHER A GOLD MEDAL OR YOU'RE A LOSER OR THIS PERSON SHOULD WIN EVERY RACE THAT THEY'RE IN, WHY AREN'T THEY.
SOMETHING'S LITTLE OFF.
BUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN SIMONE BILES MADE HER DECISION THE OTHER DAY, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR HEAD?
I CAN ABSOLUTELY RELATE TO THAT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, MY EXPERIENCE IN ELITE SPORT IS THAT, YOU KNOW, I DON'T DEAL WITH PRESSURE WELL.
SO, FOR ME, THAT HAS MEANT I COMPETE LESS OFTEN SO THAT WHEN I DO I'M MENTALLY READY AND CAN ENJOY THE EXPERIENCE.
SO, I CAN'T IMAGINE THE AMOUNT OF PRESSURE THAT SIMONE BILES IS UNDER, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE NOT ONLY IS SHE COMPETING AT A LEVEL THAT NO ONE HAS EVER COMPETED AT BEFORE AND THAT'S JUST WHAT SHE'S EXPECTED TO DO TIME AND TIME AGAIN, IT'S ALSO SHE'S IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHEN LIKE THE SPORT IS JUST A SMALL PART OF SIMONE.
HE'S PART OF A HUGE MACHINE, I GUESS.
SO, YEAH, I THINK IT'S AMAZING THAT SHE'S DONE WHAT SHE'S DONE, I THINK.
AND I REALLY LIKE TO APPLAUD HER BECAUSE NOW I THINK MORE THAN EVER IT'S DIFFICULT FOR THOSE TOUGH, ELITE ATHLETES BECAUSE THERE'S NO ESCAPING IT.
IT'S A DIFFERENT WORLD THAT THESE ATHLETES ARE COMPETING IN NOW.
IT'S A LOT MORE PRESSURE.
I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE A BIGGER FOCUS ON MENTAL HEALTH AND JUST SUPPORT IN GENERAL BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT'S BASICALLY -- IT'S A PROVISION THAT NO ONE CAN RELATE TO, YOU KNOW, OR THERE'S MAYBE 20 ATHLETES IN THE WORLD WHO KNOW WHAT THAT FEELS LIKE.
SO, IT'S EASY TO SIT ON THE COUCH AT HOME AND GO, OH, YEAH, BUT SHE'S AN ELITE ATHLETE, THAT'S WHAT SHE'S PAID TO DO.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE.
SO, YEAH, I TAKE MY HAT OFF TO HER AND I HOPE IT STARTS A CONVERSATION THAT, YOU KNOW, CAN LEAD TO THESE ELITE PERFORMERS GETTING THE SUPPORT THEY NEED.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
> SO GOOD TO SEE CONTINUED CALLS TO PRIORITIZE MENTAL HEALTH ACROSS THE SPORTING COMMUNITY, FASCINATING CONVERSATION.
> AND FINALLY, THIS WEEKEND MARKS THE END OF ONE OF THE MOST REMARKABLE OLYMPIC GAMES IN MODERN HISTORY.
THINK ABOUT IT.
EVEN THROUGH A GLOBAL PANDEMIC, THOUSANDS OF ATHLETES WERE ABLE TO SHOW UP FOR THE BIGGEST SPORTING EVENT IN THE WORLD.
AND BOY WERE THERE SOME MEMORABLE MOMENTS, FROM AMERICAN GYMNAST SIMONE BILES SHINING A POWERFUL SPOTLIGHT ON THE IMPORTANCE OF MENTAL WELL BEING TO THE QATARI-ITALIAN HIGH JUMPERS DECIDING TO SHARE THE GOLD MEDAL WHEN THEY REACHED THE TIE, TO JAPAN WHO NOT ONLY PULLED OFF AN HISTORIC GAMES BUT ALSO TAKE HOME A RECORD NUMBER OF MEDALS.
THIS MAKES TOKYO 2020 THE COUNTRY'S MOST SUCCESSFUL OLYMPICS EVER.
WE ALSO WANT TO MARK THE 56 ANNIVERSARY OF THE VOTING RIGHTS AK, REMINDS US OF JUST HOW FAR MANY FOUGHT TO GET THE LEGISLATION ON PRESIDENT JOHNSON'S DESK, AND WHY EFFORTS TO PROTECT THAT FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT CONTINUE TODAY.
AND WE WILL CONTINUE FIGHTING FOR THAT RIGHT.
THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
REMEMBER YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' ON PBS.
CHRISTIAN WILL BE BACK ON MONDAY.