08.06.2024

August 6, 2024

Former Georgia Lt. Governor Geoff Duncan discusses Kamala Harris’s VP pick of Minnesota Governor Tim Walz. Nish Kumar and Coco Khan, hosts of “Pod Save the UK” on the misinformation and racial hatred spreading in the UK in the wake of a stabbing attack. Betsey Stevenson explains the economic dip this week. Edward Wong tells the story of his family and China’s political evolution in his new book.

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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

KAMALA HARRIS MAKES HER PICK.

WE BREAK DOWN WHAT HER CHOICE FOR VP WILL MEAN FOR THE 2024 ELECTION.

I'M JOINED BY GEOFF DUNCAN, A FORMER REPUBLICAN LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WHO SAYS HE IS VOTING FOR HARRIS OVER TRUMP.

>>> THEN RIOTS AND RACISM PLAYING THE UK AFTER A SURGE IN FAR-RIGHT PROTESTS.

WE DISCUSS HOW THIS HAPPENED WITH COMEDIAN NISH KUMAR AND JOURNALIST COCO KHAN.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, PANIC ON THE MARKETS, FROM TOKYO TO WALL STREET, BUT WHAT'S REALLY THE STATE OF THE GLOBAL ECONOMY?

I ASK BETSEY STEVENSON WHO SERVED AS A TOP ECONOMIC ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA.

>>> AND -- >> HE REALIZED HE HAD NO FUTURE IN CHINA, THAT CHINA WAS HEADING THE WRONG DIRECTION AT THE TIME.

MAO HAD KEPT HIS GRIP ON POWER FOR TOO LONG.

>> "AT THE EDGE OF EMPIRE."

AUTHOR EDWARD WONG WALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HIS FATHER'S RECKONING WITH CHINA.

♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

WELL, IT'S MINNESOTA GOVERNOR TIM WALZ.

AFTER WHAT FEELS LIKE ENDLESS SPECULATION, THOUGH REALLY IT'S ONLY BEEN ABOUT TWO WEEKS, KAMALA HARRIS HAS CHOSEN HER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE.

HARRIS WAS DRAWN TO WALZ'S HAPPY-GO-LUCKY ATTITUDE.

AND IT DOESN'T HURT HE HAS A RECORD OF WINNING, EVEN IN CONSERVATIVE DISTRICTS.

OF COURSE SHE'LL ALSO WANT HER NEW VP TO SHARPEN THE CONTRAST BETWEEN HER AND DONALD TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICAN PICK OF J.D.

VANCE.

THE CAMPAIGN HAS ALREADY BEGUN ITS CAMPAIGN AGAINST WALZ, LABELING HIM A DANGEROUS RADICAL.

LET'S BEGIN INTO ALL OF THIS NOW WITH GEOFF DUNCAN, A REPUBLICAN WHO SERVED AS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR OF GEORGIA UNTIL LAST YEAR.

NOW HE SAYS HE'LL VOTE FOR HARRIS OVER TRUMP, DEFYING THE PARTY.

GEOFF, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

FIRST, YOUR REACTION TO THIS PICK OF TIM WALZ.

>> YEAH, I THINK GOVERNOR WALZ IS A SOLID PICK FOR VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS.

I THINK HE IS A MAN'S MAN.

HIS BACKGROUND IS JUST AVERAGE, WHICH IS GREAT.

I THINK IT APPEALS TO SO MANY.

HE WAS A TEACHER.

HE WENT TO COLLEGE ON THE GI BILL.

HE WAS A FOOTBALL COACH, AND, YOU KNOW, WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH HIS POLICIES OR NOT, FROM TOP TO BOTTOM, HE IS AN AUTHENTIC LEADER.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT AMERICA IS GOING TO GET TO MEET OVER THE COMING MONTHS.

>> OF COURSE HIS POLICIES ARE WHAT THE TRUMP FANS TICKET ARE PICKING UP ON RIGHT AWAY, AND THEY KEEP TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE IS PROGRESSIVE, COMPARING HIM TO A RADICAL LEFTIST AND NOW PUTTING HIM IN THE SAME CAMP AS THEY'VE DESCRIBED KAMALA HARRIS AS SORT OF A FAILED LEADER OF A WEST COAST STATE, NAMELY, CALIFORNIA, AND NOW THEY'RE DOING THE SAME WITH MINNESOTA.

THIS IS A QUESTION THAT WALZ WAS ASKED RECENTLY WHEN HE WAS INTERVIEWED ON STATE OF THE UNION ON THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE.

HERE IS WHAT JAKE ASKED HIM.

>> WHAT A MONSTER, KIDS ARE EATING AND HAVING FULL BELLIES SO THEY CAN GO LEARN, AND WOMEN ARE MAKING THEIR OWN HEALTH CARE DECISIONS.

AND WE'RE A TOP FIVE BUSINESS STATE.

WE ALSO RANK IN THE TOP THREE OF HAPPINESS.

SO, YEAH, MY KIDS ARE GOING TO EAT HERE, AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A CHANCE TO GO TO COLLEGE, AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO LIVE WHERE WE'RE WORKING ON REDUCING CARBON EMISSIONS.

OH, AND BY THE WAY, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE PERSONAL INCOMES THAT ARE HIGHER AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

IF THAT'S WHERE THEY WANT TO LABEL ME, I'M MORE THAN HAPPY TO TAKE THE LABEL.

>> THAT'S IN RESPONSE TO HIS SUPPORT OF UNIVERSAL FREE SCHOOL MEALS FOR STUDENTS, VOTING RIGHTS FOR THE FORMERLY INCARCERATED, DRIVING RIGHTS FOR IMMIGRANTS WHO CROSS THE BORDER ILLEGALLY, SIGNED ABORTION A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT AS WELL.

DO YOU THINK THIS WILL BE A LIABILITY, SPECIFICALLY FOR THE VOTERS THAT HARRIS IS TARGETING, AND THAT IS MODERATE, UNDECIDED VOTERS, NEVER TRUMPERS LIKE YOURSELF?

>> WELL, I THINK THOSE ARE AUTHENTIC ANSWERS.

WHETHER I AGREE WITH EACH ONE OF THEM OR NOT IS A DIFFERENT STORY, BUT THEY'RE AUTHENTIC.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT AMERICA IS GOING TO GET DRAWN TO.

I CONTINUE TO SAY OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THIS 10% IN THE MIDDLE THAT IS GOING TO DECIDE THE ELECTION AREN'T ALL ALIGNED ON POLICIES.

BUT OUR GRAVITATIONAL PULL IS GOING TO BE TOWARDS GENUINE LEADERSHIP, AUTHENTICNESS.

TO ME, I HAVE A MUCH BETTER CHANCE OF SEEING THAT HAPPEN OVER A TIM WALZ THAN A J.D.

VANCE OR A KAMALA HARRIS VERSUS A DONALD TRUMP.

WE WATCHED WHAT HAPPENED.

DONALD TRUMP GETS A MICROPHONE, AND HE COMES TO ATLANTA AND HE CAN'T HELP HIMSELF BUT PROBABLY COST HIMSELF GEORGIA WITH JUST AN HOUR-LONG RALLY.

>> WE KNOW THAT TIM WALZ REALLY MADE A NAME FOR HIMSELF ON SOCIAL MEDIA IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS AFTER COINING THE DESCRIPTION "WEIRD" FOR TRUMP AND J.D.

VANCE.

AND HE ALSO MADE CLEAR, THOUGH, IN AN INTERVIEW WITH "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THAT HE DIFFERENTIATES A TRUMP VOTER AND REPUBLICAN VOTERS FROM TRUMP HIMSELF AND VANCE HIMSELF, AND HE DOESN'T WANT TO FALL INTO THE SAME CATEGORIZATION THAT HILLARY CLINTON WAS BEING CRITICIZED FOR AFTER SHE LABELED TRUMP VOTERS AS A BASKET FULL OF DEPLORABLES.

AND HERE IS WHAT HE SAID.

HE SAID I KEEP COMING BACK TO THIS.

IF THEY'RE NOT VOTING FOR US, THERE IS NOT SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM.

THERE IS SOMETHING THAT'S NOT QUITE CLICKING.

SO DON'T ASSUME THAT THEY'RE NOT CLEVER MUCH TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SELLING.

HOW DOES THAT MESSAGING RESONATE WITH YOU?

AND HOW CAN HE TAKE THAT ALONG NOW WITH KAMALA HARRIS ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL FOR VOTERS?

>> I THINK THAT'S A VERY MATURE ANSWER.

I THINK IT'S AN ANSWER THAT REFLECTS NOT THE DEEP-ROOTED POLITICAL GAME PLAN THAT SO MANY PEOPLE FOLLOWED FOR SO LONG.

THAT IS AN INVITING TONE TO INVITE THOSE THAT DON'T AGREE WITH YOU 100% OF THE TIME TO JOIN THE JOURNEY.

FOR ME, THE JOURNEY IS I'M GOING TO VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT AND TRY TO BEAT DONALD TRUMP, BECAUSE I WANT MY REPUBLICAN PARTY BACK THAT I ACTUALLY RECOGNIZE.

AND I'M WILLING TO MAKE THE INVESTMENT IN FOUR YEARS OF NOT BEING IN CONTROL AS A PARTY SO THAT WE CAN TAKE THE TIME, THE NECESSARY TIME TO FIX WHAT'S BROKEN.

I THINK THAT IS A VERY MATURE POSITION BY GOVERNOR WALZ.

>> WE HEARD FROM J.D.

VANCE TODAY FOLLOWING THIS NEWS.

HE SAID THAT HE CALLED GOVERNOR WALZ, LEFT HIM A VOICE MAIL.

HE ALSO SAID THAT HE IS LOOKING FORWARD TO DEBATING HIM.

SO IT MAY WELL BE THAT WE MAY HAVE A VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE LOCKED IN SOONER THAN WE HAVE A PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THESE TWO FACING OFF?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S GREAT.

I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT OPPORTUNITY TO NOT ONLY SEE SUBSTANCE OF WHAT THEIR ANSWERS ARE, BUT HOW THEY DELIVER THOSE ANSWERS.

WE CERTAINLY SAW HOW IMPORTANT DEBATES WERE WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN AND FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HOW DECISIVE THAT WAS TO ACTUALLY FORCE JOE BIDEN OUT OF THE RACE BECAUSE OF HIS PERFORMANCE.

THE MORE DEBATES, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT.

IT DOES FEEL LIKE THERE IS A LOT OF THEATER WRAPPED UP.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, PUT THEM ON STAGE, LET THEM GO HEAD TO HEAD, AND LET'S SEE WHO COMES OUT THE VICTOR.

>> WE CAN'T LOSE SIGHT OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A LIFE-LONG REPUBLICAN AND YOU HAVE ENDORSED KAMALA HARRIS.

HERE IS WHAT YOU SAID.

YOU SAID I'M COMMITTED TO BEATING DONALD TRUMP.

THE ONLY VEHICLE LEFT FOR ME 20 DO THAT IS WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

IF THAT REQUIRES ME SO VOTE FOR, SPEAK FOR OR ENDORSE KAMALA HARRIS, THEN COUNT ME IN.

NOW IN RESPONSE, TRUMP POSTED THIS ABOUT YOU, "WE HAVE TO PURGE THE PARTY OF PEOPLE THAT GO AGAINST OUR CANDIDATES AND MAKE IT HARDER FOR A POPULAR REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT TO BEAT THE RADICAL LEFT LUNATICS.

GEOFF DUNCAN IS A LOSER WHO IS DISINTEGRATING ON HIS OWN."

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> WELL, I ACTUALLY HAVE A CONSERVATIVE RECORD WAY MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN DONALD TRUMP.

I'VE GOT KIDS LONGER THAN DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN.

HE IS ENTITLED TO HIS OPINION.

I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF HIS REPUBLICAN PARTY BECAUSE IT'S REALLY BASED ON HATE AND ANGER.

IT'S NOT BASED ON CONSERVISM.

I'M WILLING TO VOTE FOR SOMEBODY ELSE, SPEAK FOR SOMEBODY ELSE JUST TO GET PAST NOT TO HAVE DONALD TRUMP IN THE OFFICE FOR FOUR MORE YEARS.

>> HOW DO YOU ENVISION A HARRIS WIN AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO REHABILITATE AND REBUILD THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

>> I THINK IT HAS TO SERVE AS A PIVOT POINT AND A WAKE-UP CALL.

HOW MANY TIMES CAN THIS GUY LOSE OR CAUSE PEOPLE TO LOSE?

I MEAN, GEORGIA IS A PRIME EXAMPLE.

WE HAVE TWO DEMOCRATIC U.S.

SENATORS, NOT BECAUSE THIS IS A DEMOCRATIC STATE, BUT BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP TAINTED THE WATER AND CAME IN HERE AND TRIED TO INFLUENCE THE RACE.

AND PEOPLE JUST -- ENOUGH VOTES MATTERED WHERE WE REVOLTED.

THAT'S WHAT DONALD TRUMP KEEPS DOING.

SO MY HOPE IS THAT WE FINALLY WAKE UP AS A PARTY, REALIZE MY GOSH, THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY FORWARD, AND WE DO EXACTLY THAT.

WE PICK PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY HONORABLE.

PICK PEOPLE WHO ARE MORALLY FOCUSED ON A DIRECTION BETTER THAN THE GUTTER.

>> THERE APPEAR TO BE AN INTERNAL DEBATE WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY BETWEEN THE MODERATES AND THE MORE PROGRESSIVES AS TO WHO KAMALA HARRIS WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER SUITED TO PICK AS HER VICE PRESIDENT.

AND MANY SAYING THAT JOSH SHAPIRO WAS AN OBVIOUS CHOICE GIVEN THAT HE IS A VERY POPULAR GOVERNOR IN PENNSYLVANIA.

I'M WONDERING WHAT YOU'RE HEARING FROM REPUBLICANS IN THE SENSE THAT AT LEAST ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND PUBLICLY, THEY WERE -- THEY APPEAR TO BE QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT A SHAPIRO PICK.

>> YEAH, I THINK THE SNAP RESPONSE HAS BEEN EXACTLY THAT, THAT GOVERNOR SHAPIRO WOULD HAVE BEEN A TOUGHER OPPONENT TO BEAT THAN GOVERNOR WALZ.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, I'M SURE THE HARRIS TEAM -- IN FACT, I'M CERTAIN THEY DID BETTER RESEARCH THEY DID THAN DONALD TRUMP DID ON J.D.

VANCE.

GOVERNOR WALZ IS GOING TO BE A FINE VP TEAMMATE TO GO THROUGH THIS.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, EARLY EASY MATH FOR ME WAS PENNSYLVANIA.

BUT OF COURSE, THE HARRIS TEAM DIDN'T SEE THAT DECISION TO BE THE TOP DECISION.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, JOSH SHAPIRO IS STILL GOING TO BE ON THE TEAM AND HE IS STILL I BELIEVE GOING TO DELIVER PENNSYLVANIA FOR THE HARRIS TICKET.

>> ANOTHER POPULAR GOVERNOR IS THE GOVERNOR, REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR BRIAN KEMP OF YOUR HOME STATE OF GEORGIA.

AND IT DOES APPEAR THAT FOR WHATEVER REASON DONALD TRUMP IN AT LEAST HOPING TO WIN THE STATE, WHICH HE HAS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF DOING, CONTINUES TO KEEP SHOOTING HIMSELF IN THE FOOT BY KNOCKING GOVERNOR KEMP DIRECTLY, PERSONALLY IT APPEARS HE JUST CAN'T LET GO OF THE 2020 ELECTION AND HIS ATTEMPT TO OVERTURN IT IN THAT STATE.

BRIAN KEMP DEFIANTLY NOT GOING ALONG WITH THAT.

HERE'S WHAT HE HAD TO SAY ABOUT THE GOVERNOR JUST OVER THE WEEKEND.

>> KEMP IS VERY BAD FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

HE WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING.

HE COULD HAVE ENDED THE TRAVESTY WITH A PHONE CALL BECAUSE I DID NOTHING WRONG.

HE IS A BAD GUY.

HE IS A DISLOYAL GUY, AND HE IS A VERY AVERAGE GOVERNOR.

LITTLE BRIAN, LITTLE BRIAN KEMP.

>> HE ALSO WENT AFTER GOVERNOR KEMP'S WIFE, WE SHOULD NOTE.

HOW IS ALL OF THIS PLAYING IN THE STATE OF GEORGIA IN PARTICULAR WITH REPUBLICAN VOTERS?

>> NOT WELL FOR DONALD TRUMP.

THOSE WORDS WERE NOT RECEIVED WELL AND ARE A COMPLETE GROSS NEGLIGENCE FOR A REPUBLICAN TO PICK ON BRIAN KEMP AND HIS RECORD OF CONSERVATIVE LEADERSHIP OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS.

HE HAS DONE A PHENOMENAL JOB THROUGH SOME OF THE TOUGHEST MOMENTS IN TIME.

I WAS HONORED TO BE ABLE TO SERVE ALONGSIDE HIM FOR YEARS DURING THAT PROCESS.

IT'S NOT PLAYING WELL FOR DONALD TRUMP.

I WOULD BEG TO ARGUE THAT THIS IS NOW A HUGE TURNING POINT IN GEORGIA.

AND THERE IS REALLY NO WAY TO SAY DONALD TRUMP IS GOING WALK AWAY WITH GEORGIA.

I THINK IT'S NOW BACK UP FOR GRABS.

IF KAMALA HARRIS CONTINUES TO GAIN MOMENTUM, I THINK SHE WINS GEORGIA AND A NUMBER OF OTHER STATES.

DONALD TRUMP CANNOT HELP HIMSELF.

THOSE STATEMENTS WERE NOT ABOUT BEING A REPUBLICAN, THEY WERE ABOUT BEING A SELF-CENTERED JERK AND BEING SOMEBODY WHO IS ONLY ADDICTED TO THE SPOTLIGHT AND NOT ACTUALLY LEADERSHIP.

>> SO YOU THINK GEORGIA IS BACK IN PLAY NOW?

>> ABSOLUTELY IT'S IN PLAY.

THE SUBURBS WHERE I LIVE 30, 40 MILES NORTH OF ATLANTA ARE DISGUSTED WITH THAT THEY HEARD FROM DONALD TRUMP.

THEY'RE DISGUSTED WITH THE CONTINUED PLAY AFTER PLAY AFTER PLAY JUST TRYING TO POINT TO HIMSELF.

JUST ME ALONE, I'VE GOT A LOT OF PUSHBACK FROM REPUBLICANS ABOUT NOT SUPPORTING HIM AND SUPPORTING KAMALA HARRIS.

BUT NOW I'VE STARTED GETTING NOTES AND TEXT MESSAGES AND PHONE CALLS FROM OTHERS I GET IT, I GET IT.

THIS GUY IS RECKLESS ON A GOOD DAY.

DANGEROUS ON A BAD DAY.

>> INTERESTING.

GEOFF DUNCAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NEXT, TO THE UNITED KINGDOM, WHERE FAR-RIGHT RHETORIC HAS FUELLED THE FLAME OF RACIAL HATRED, TRIGGERING RIOTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

MOSQUES HAVE BEEN ATTACKED, HOTELS HOUSING ASYLUM SEEKERS DAMAGED AND BROKEN INTO, AND POLICE HAVE BEEN TARGETED WITH PETROL BOMBS.

THE SOURCE OF IT ALL IS A TRAGIC STABBING THAT SAW THREE YOUNG GIRLS KILLED LAST MONTH.

AS THE COMMUNITY WAS STILL GRIEVING, MISINFORMATION BEGAN TO SPREAD ON SOCIAL MEDIA, CLAIMING THAT THE SUSPECT WAS A MUSLIM REFUGEE.

THE SUSPECT CURRENTLY IS IN CUSTODY, WAS BORN IN WALES TO RWANDAN PARENTS.

WITH THIS ALL PLAYING OUT ON BRITAIN'S STREETS, HOW CAN PEOPLE FEEL SAFE AGAIN?

JOINING ME ON THAT IS COMEDIAN AND BROADCASTER NISH KUMAR AND JOURNALIST COCO KHAN.

THEY BOTH HOST THE PODCAST "POD SAVE THE U.K." NISH AND COCO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

SADLY, THIS IS A STORY THAT HASN'T GOTTEN AS MUCH MEDIA ATTENTION HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION SEASON.

AND OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF OTHER INTERNATIONAL COVERAGE.

SO SET THE SCENE FOR US, NISH, IF YOU CAN, JUST THE IMPACT THAT THIS HAS HAD ON THE COUNTRY THERE, PARTICULARLY WITH MINORITY COMMUNITIES OVER THE PAST FEW DAYS.

>> I THINK IT'S BEEN A TERRIFYING WEEK FOR MINORITY COMMUNITIES.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, GROUPS ARE FILLED WITH VERY CONCERNED PEOPLE.

THESE ARE NOT -- THERE IS THIS PHRASE THAT KEEPS GETTING SPEWED AROUND ABOUT PEOPLE'S LEGITIMATE CONCERNS ABOUT IMMIGRATION.

THESE ARE NOT LEGITIMATE CONCERNS.

THESE ARE PEOPLE ON THE STREETS EXPLICITLY CHANTING RACIST SLOGANS.

SOME OF THEM ARE VISIBLY SHOWING, YOU KNOW, HITLER SALUTES.

THEY HAVE VISIBLE NAZI TATTOOS.

NONE OF THIS IS LEGITIMATE CONCERNS.

BUT THE ONLY THING I WOULD SAY ABOUT THIS IS THAT MOST OF THE MINORITY COMMUNITIES I KNOW ARE NOT SURPRISED.

THIS HAS BEEN BREWING FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS NOW.

AND I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO STATE THAT THIS HAS NOT COME OUT OF NOWHERE.

THERE HAS BEEN A REAL PUSH TO KIND OF PORTRAY THIS AS AN ACT THAT NOBODY COULD POSSIBLY HAVE SEEN COMING.

BUT IN REALITY, THE NORMALIZATION OF FAR-RIGHT RHETORIC HAS BEEN HAPPENING STEADILY OVER THE PAST DECADE AND A HALF.

A LOT OF IT COALESCED IN 2016.

AND THERE HAS BEEN A KIND OF CASUAL USE OF ANTI-IMMIGRANT RHETORIC BY NOT JUST FAR RIGHT POLITICIANS, BUT MAINSTREAM CONSERVATIVE POLITICIANS.

SOME MAINSTREAM POLITICIANS FROM THE LABOUR PARTY AND HUGE VOLUMES OF ANTI-IMMIGRANT SENTIMENT CHURNED OUT BY MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

THERE ARE PIECES FILLED WITH BILE ABOUT IMMIGRANTS TO TRY TO SHIFT THE BLAME FOR THE DIFFICULT ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES WE'VE ENDURED FOR THE LAST DECADE IN THIS COUNTRY ON IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES AND REFUGEES.

SO I WOULD SAY CERTAINLY AMONGST THE PEOPLE THAT I AM SPEAKING TO, THE MOOD IS PROFOUND CONCERN, EXTREME DISQUIET, BUT NOT SURPRISE.

>> COCO, WOULD YOU AGREE?

ARE YOU NOT SURPRISED, SADLY, BY WHAT WE'VE SEEN?

>> NO, I'M NOT SURPRISED.

AS I THINK NISH ARTICULATED PRETTY WELL THERE, WE'VE SEEN A DRIP FEED OF ANTI-IMMIGRANT SENTIMENT FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

THAT'S BEEN -- IT'S ALMOST LIKE AN ECO SPHERE OF POLITICIANS SAYING IT, REPEATED IN CERTAIN SECTORS OF THE PRESS, AND THEN OF COURSE YOU HAVE THE SOCIAL MEDIA ASPECT AND HOW CERTAIN PLATFORMS ELEVATE THESE EXTREME VIEWS.

I THINK THERE IS A LACK OF DISTINCTION BETWEEN MIGRANTS, ASYLUM SEEKERS, AND JUST PEOPLE OF COLOR.

AND I THINK THERE HAS BEEN AN UNWILLINGNESS TO TRY AND CREATE SEPARATION BETWEEN THOSE THINGS.

I THINK IT'S BEEN POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT, PARTICULARLY FOR THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY THAT'S BEEN RULING PARTY FOR 14 YEARS UNTIL RELATIVELY RECENTLY.

I THINK IT'S BEEN POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT FOR THEM TO TAP INTO THE RACIAL ANXIETIES AND NOT MAKE DISTINCTIONS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO WERE BORN HERE, PEOPLE WHO ARE LEGALLY HERE BECAUSE THEY NEED TO DO A JOB IN RS OR PROP UP A UNIVERSITY SYSTEM AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.

I THINK IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME COMING.

I THINK PROBABLY THE SURPRISE ELEMENT OF IT, IF THERE IS INDEED ANY WAS THE ORGANIZATION OF IT.

NOT TO TRADE IN STEREOTYPES ABOUT, LIKE, LET'S BE HONEST, LIKE A MOB OF PEOPLE THAT AREN'T THAT DIFFERENT TO FOOTBALL HOOLIGANS WHO WE KNOW VERY WELL IN BRITAIN, THEY ARE TRADITIONALLY QUITE DISORDERLY AND QUITE CHAOTIC.

THEY'VE BEEN VERY ORGANIZED THIS TIME.

AND THAT IS QUITE CHILLING.

AND THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE RELENTING, DESPITE THE PUSHBACK FROM NOT ONLY THE POLICE, BUT FROM LOCAL COMMUNITIES WHO WHERE THEY CAN ARE TURNING UP IN FORCE TO DEFEND, YOU KNOW, ASYLUM SEEKER HOMES, EVEN THEIR OWN HIGH STREET.

THAT BIT'S BEEN A BIT SHOCKING.

YOU WOULD NORMALLY LOOK AT THE, LET'S BE HONEST, DRUNK FOOTBALL LADS WHO ARE LOOKING FOR A PUNCH-UP AND THINK OH, YEAH, THEY'LL GO HOME SOON.

THEY'LL GET BORED SOON.

THEY HAVE ORGANIZED THEMSELVES VERY, VERY QUICKLY.

>> AND NISH, THIS HAS BEEN A REAL TEST YOU COULD SAY FOR THE NEW GOVERNMENT HERE FOR THIS NEW PRIME MINISTER THE PAST FEW WEEKS.

HOW HAS THE NEWLY ELECTED LABOR PARTY IN YOUR VIEW HANDLED WHAT WE'VE SEEN ON THE STREETS?

BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN CRITICISM THAT ACTION WEREN'T TAKEN SOON ENOUGH.

>> YES.

I THINK THERE IS SOME DISQUIET ABOUT THE WAY IT'S BEEN HANDLED AND THE INITIAL RELUCTANT TO GIVE WHAT THIS IS A NAME, WHICH IS EXPLICITLY ISLAMOPHOBIC AND RACIST RHETORIC THAT'S COMING OUT OF THESE MOBS.

I THINK IT DEFINITELY PRESENTS A MASSIVE CHALLENGE FOR KEIR STARMER, AND KEIR STARMER RUN ON A PLATFORM OF BEING STRONG ON LAW AND ORDER.

HE IS A FORMER PROSECUTOR, AND THAT'S A BIG PART OF THE RECORD THAT HE RAN ON FOR PRIME MINISTER.

HE HAS NOW COME OUT AND MADE SORT OF UNEQUIVOCAL STATEMENT CONDEMNING WHAT HE CALLED THE FAR-RIGHT THUGGERY OF A LOT OF THESE GROUPS.

AND HE'S ALSO WARNED THAT THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES NOT JUST AS PEOPLE PARTICIPATE IN THE RIOTS, BUT FOR THE PEOPLE WHIPPING UP VIOLENCE ONLINE.

THE CHALLENGE THAT THAT PRESENTS IS THE CHALLENGE THAT IS PRESENTED TO SO MANY GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD, WHICH IS HOW DO YOU REGULATE THESE UNACCOUNTABLE TECH PLATFORMS, YOU KNOW.

THE WEBSITE FORMERLY KNOWN AS TWITTER IS OWNED BY ELON MUSK WHO NOT ONLY HAS CONTINUED TO PLATFORM HARD-RIGHT FIGURES UNDER ITS PREVIOUS OWNERSHIP TO ACTUALLY SUSPENDED, BUT HAS HIMSELF BEEN STOKING THE FIRES BURNING ACROSS MY COUNTRY AT THE MOMENT AND MAKING COMMENTS ON THE INEVITABILITY OF A CIVIL WAR.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE MEETINGS OF SECURITY COUNCIL WHICH WE CALL COBRA, AND THERE ARE IDEAS THAT POLICE ARE GOING TO BE DEPLOYED ACROSS THE COUNTRY BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE RIOTS BEING PLANNED SUPPOSEDLY TO HAPPEN TOMORROW, WHICH IS WEDNESDAY.

THAT POLICING ELEMENT OF IT OBVIOUSLY PRESENTS A BIG CHALLENGE FOR KEIR STARMER.

THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY I THINK FOR HIM TO EXPLICITLY CALL THIS WHAT IT IS, AND CALL THIS RACISM AND CALL THIS ISLAMOPHOBIA, AND ACTUALLY START A DIALOGUE THAT COULD START TO REUNIFY THIS COUNTRY AFTER A DECADE AND A HALF OF DIVISIVENESS.

THE CHALLENGE THAT HE IS FACING THAT I DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW HE IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO RESOLVE, ONLY BECAUSE IT'S A CHALLENGE THAT FACES ALMOST EVERY GOVERNMENT ACROSS THE WORLD AT THE MOMENT IS HOW TO REGULATE AND COMBAT MISINFORMATION AS IT SPREADS.

THE SUSPECT IS IN CUSTODY, AS YOU ALREADY STATED, IS NOT PART OF THE GROUPS THAT ARE LARGELY BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THIS.

THIS IS A PERSON THAT WAS BORN IN BRITAIN.

THE NEWSPAPERS BELIEVE IS A RELIGIOUS AFFILIATE TO BE CHRISTIAN, THOUGH IT'S UNCLEAR, THOUGH WE SHOULD ALWAYS SAY EVEN IF HE WAS A MUSLIM IMMIGRANT, THAT'S NO EXCUSE FOR DEMONIZING EITHER OF THOSE ENTIRE DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

THE SPECIFIC PROBLEM HERE IS ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF INFORMATION WAS SPREAD ABOUT HIS IDENTITY ONLINE.

A AND THE PROBLEM IS THAT THESE SOCIAL NETWORKING SITES ARE PETRI DISHES FOR INFORMATION, BUT ALSO FOR ORGANIZATION AND COORDINATION.

THESE ARE NOT, AS COCO WAS SAYING, JUST MOBS OF DRUNK MEN CAUSING PROBLEMS.

THESE ARE COORDINATED GROUPS OF ORGANIZED NAZI PROTESTERS WHO HAVE GONE TO SPECIFIC LOCATIONS LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, TO HOTELS WHERE THEY BELIEVE REFUGEES AND ASYLUM SEEKERS ARE BEING HOUSED AND THEY ATTACK THOSE HOTELS, SET THEM ON FIRE.

THE SCARY THING HERE IS THAT SOCIAL MEDIA BOTH PROMULGATES FALSE INFORMATION, BUT ALSO THE CAPACITY TO ORGANIZE WITHIN THESE ORGANIZATIONS AND MOVEMENTS.

>> AND IT'S SPREAD SO QUICKLY.

NOT TO TAKE AWAY FROM WHAT I'M SURE ARE MANY BAD ACTORS IN ENGLAND, BUT RUSSIA, AS WE KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS PLAYED A ROLE IN SPREADING MISINFORMATION DISINFORMATION OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS TO INCITE THIS TYPE OF VIOLENCE AND JUST CHAOS IN COUNTRIES, IN DEMOCRACIES IN PARTICULAR.

WE'VE SEEN, COCO, OVER THE LAST YEAR A SPIKE IN ANTISEMITISM, A SPIKE IN ISLAMOPHOBIA, IN A COUNTRY THAT IS WELL-KNOWN TO BE QUITE A DIVERSE COUNTRY.

I'M WONDERING FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE SOME OF THE FIRST REMEDIES THAT CAN BE DONE TO ADDRESS THIS HUGE CONCERN?

>> WELL, I THINK THE FIRST THING THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE IS GET THIS DISORDER UNDER CONTROL.

THERE IS NO ABILITY TO REBUILD PEACE AND REBUILD COMMUNITIES IF STUFF IS ON FIRE AND PEOPLE ARE SCARED TO LEAVE THEIR HOUSE.

I THINK THAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

YOU MENTIONED THE RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION.

IT HAS BEEN REALLY CHILLING TO SEE THIS PLAY OUT SO QUICKLY, JUST IN CASE ANY OF YOUR VIEWERS AREN'T FAMILIAR.

THERE WAS EVIDENCE THAT THIS PARTICULAR RUMOR, AND THERE IS OFTEN RUMORS THAT BLAME AND ASSIGN BLAME TO MIGRANTS OR BRITISH MUSLIMS OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE THAT ARE FALSE.

BUT THIS PARTICULAR ONE ABOUT THIS, WHO WAS THE CULPRIT BEHIND THIS HORRIBLE CHILD KILLING, THAT CAME FROM A CHANNEL CALLED CHANNEL 3 NOW.

WHEN YOU SEE IT, IT LOOKS LIKE AN AMERICAN CABLE CHANNEL, BUT IT'S NOT.

WHEN THE PAPERS HERE TRACKED IT DOWN, IT WAS TRACKED DOWN TO LITHUANIA, AND WE HAVE REASON TO BELIEVE IT IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE KREMLIN.

POLICE COULDN'T REPORT IT BECAUSE THE CULPRIT IS UNDER 18, AND WE HAVE REPORTING RESTRICTIONS AROUND THAT, BECAUSE THEY ARE LEGALLY A CHILD.

SO THERE WAS LOTS OF THINGS KIND OF GOING ON THERE.

AND SO I THINK TO RETURN TO YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION ABOUT WHAT CAN BE DONE TO HEAL IT, ONE, GET THIS UNDER CONTROL.

TWO, LOOK VERY CLOSELY AT THE TECH GIANTS.

GO FOR INDIVIDUAL PROFILES WHO ARE WHIPPING UP HATE, IF YOU CAN GET THEM BRITISH AND THERE IS EVIDENCE FOR IT.

OBVIOUSLY, THE PROBLEM OF CONTROLLING TECH GIANTS IS A LARGE ONE, AND I DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW IT WILL BE RESOLVED.

BUT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE SOME DIPLOMACY ON THIS ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT CAN BE DONE.

I DON'T CLAIM TO BE AN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMAT.

I THINK THERE ARE CONVERSATIONS THAT OUR FOREIGN SECRETARY MUST HAVE.

AND THAT'S PART OF OUR LONGER INTERNATIONAL COMMITMENT AND WORK BECAUSE THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT IS AFFECTING EVERYONE AND IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY.

>> ON A PERSONAL LEVEL, I'LL ASK BOTH OF YOU QUICKLY AS WE CLOSE HERE, START WITH YOU, COCO, AS A BRITISH ASIAN, HOW DOES THIS MAKE YOU FEEL?

>> WELL, IT FEELS AWFUL.

I'M A MUSLIM FAMILY AS WELL.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT -- IT'S QUITE INTERESTING, THE UK WAS A COLONIAL POWER.

AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF BRITISH PEOPLE HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE EMPIRE.

PRESUMABLY, I THINK BECAUSE THEY THINK IT WILL MAKE PEOPLE FEEL BAD.

BUT ACTUALLY, WHEN YOU LEARN ABOUT THE EMPIRE, YOU LEARN ALSO ABOUT STORIES OF OVERTHROWING THE EMPIRE, GETTING YOUR INDEPENDENCE, AND ABOUT THE ROLE OF SOLIDARITY.

THE NUMBER ONE TACTIC THE BRITISH HAD WAS DIVIDE AND RULE, RIGHT?

PIT COMMUNITIES AGAINST EACH OTHER, MAKE THEM FEEL LIKE OH, YOU KNOW, WE'RE DIFFERENT TO YOU AND EVEN THOUGH WE'RE ALL IMMIGRANTS AND MARGINALIZED, WE'RE SLIGHTLY BETTER.

AND THAT IS PLAYING OUT RIGHT NOW.

AND THAT I THINK HAS BEEN THE MOST PAINFUL THING.

ASIDE FROM THE FACT THAT, YES, IT IS INDEED MY OWN COMMUNITY WHO ARE THE ONES WHO ARE BEING DEMONIZED AND HELD UP AS BEING AWFUL.

BUT BEYOND THAT AS WELL, IT'S NOT JUST THEM, IT'S ALL PEOPLE OF COLOR.

AND THE IDEA THAT WE ARE LOSING OUR SOLIDARITY WITH EACH OTHER AS A PROJECT THAT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR DEFINITELY AT LEAST TEN YEARS OF SAYING THE MUSLIMS ARE THE BAD ONES.

NOT THESE ONES, THESE ONES ARE OKAY, OR THESE ONES ARE FINE.

IT'S BEEN SO HORRIBLE TO SEE THAT PLAY OUT.

IN A WAY, THIS IS THE KIND OF LOGICAL END.

BECAUSE WHEN COMMUNITIES ARE MADE WEAKER BY DESTROYING THE SOLIDARITY FROM OTHER GROUPS, THEY ARE, OF COURSE, EASY TO BE PICKED ON.

AND I THINK THAT'S SORT OF WHAT'S HAPPENED HERE.

THAT'S WHAT BREAKS MY HEART THE MOST, NOT JUST MY OWN COMMUNITY, BUT ALSO THE WIDER STORY OF BEING A MIGRANT AND BEING A PERSON OF COLOR IN THIS COUNTRY AND HOW LONELY THAT REALLY FEELS IT IS NOW.

>> NISH, QUICKLY, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> I FEEL -- YOU KNOW, I FEEL VERY ANGRY AND DISCONNECTED FROM MY COUNTRY TODAY IN MUCH THE SAME WAY I DID IN 2016 WHEN A SITTING POLITICIAN WAS ASSASSINATED BY A MAN WHO SUBSEQUENTLY GAVE HIS NAME AS FREEDOM FOR BRITAIN.

THE POLITICIAN QUESTIONED JOE COX WAS AN ADVOCATE FOR RIGHTS FOR IMMIGRANTS AND REFUGEES.

AND I HAVE A SIMILAR FEELING OF ALIENATION FROM MY COUNTRY TODAY.

I ALSO FEEL A GREAT DEAL OF FRUSTRATION.

MANY OF US HAVE TRIED TO RAISE AN ALARM ABOUT MAINSTREAM AND RESPECTABLE MEDIA OUTLETS FANNING THE FLAMES OF EXTREMISM.

A LOT OF US HAVE TRIED TO RAISE THOSE CONCERNS AND BEEN SHOUTED DOWN QUITE AGGRESSIVELY AND TOLD THAT WE WERE PANICKING, AND THAT WE WERE FABRIC INDICATING THESE CONVERSATIONS.

AND REPEATEDLY I'VE BEEN ACCUSED OF IMPORTING U.S.-STYLE RACE POLITICS TO BRITAIN.

AND PUSHING AN IDEA THAT BRITAIN IS RACIST WHEN BRITAIN COULD IS NOT BE RACIST AT AUTOMATIC.

I WOULD SAY THE ONLY POSITIVE TO COME OUT THIS RIGHT NOW IS EVERYTHING IS ON THE TABLE.

SEEING TRULY WHAT WE'RE UP AGAINST.

AND THERE ARE A LOT OF US WHO WON'T BE GASLIT BY THAT KIND OF RHETORIC ANYMORE.

>> WELL, THE WORLD IS WATCHING.

THANK YOU BOTH, NISH KUMAR AND COCO KHAN.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NOW ACROSS THE WORLD, MARKETS BOUNCED BACK A BIT THIS MORNING AFTER AN INCREDIBLY BUMPY MONDAY WHICH SAW THE JAPANESE NIKKEI PLUNGING TO THE LARGEST ONE-DAY DROP IN NEARLY 37 YEARS AND WALL STREET STOCKS SINKING 3%.

FOR MONTHS THERE HAS BEEN INCREASED CONFIDENCE OF A SO-CALLED SOFT LANDING.

THE FED MANAGING TO TAME INFLATION WITHOUT CAUSING A RECESSION.

BUT IS THAT STILL POSSIBLE?

JOINING ME NOW ON THIS IS BETSEY STEVENSON.

SHE PREVIOUSLY SERVED ON PRESIDENT OBAMA'S COUNCIL ON ECONOMIC ADVISERS AND IS NOW A PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN.

BETSEY, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

I INTERVIEWED YOUR PARTNER JUSTIN YESTERDAY WHO DESCRIBED A RATHER ROSIER PICTURE FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE, CALLING THIS ECONOMY BORING FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD.

I'M WONDERING IF YOU CONCUR.

>> I THINK WE HAVE A SUBTLE DIFFERENCES IN OUR VIEW.

WHAT I SEE IS AN ECONOMY THAT HAS BEEN SLOWING DOWN FOR THE LAST YEAR.

I DON'T THINK WE GOT BIG NEWS ON FRIDAY.

SO IT'S KIND OF SURPRISING WE HAD A BIG REACTION TO WHAT WAS REALLY NOT BIG NEWS.

THE LABOR MARKET IS NORMALIZING.

AND THE FED CHAIR HAS BEEN SAYING HE'S SEEING A NORMALIZING LABOR MARKET.

I THINK IT WAS THE FIRST TIME PEOPLE REALIZED OH, WAIT, THIS ECONOMY IS SLOWER.

AND MAYBE THE FED SHOULD HAVE ALREADY ACTED TO CUT RATES.

I THINK PUTTING THOSE TWO BEHIND, MAYBE THERE WAS A QUESTIONING OF FED CREDIBILITY THAT LED TO A LITTLE BIT OF A FREAK-OUT.

I DON'T THINK THAT THE FED IS WAY BEHIND.

I THINK THAT THEY'RE DAYS BEHIND, WEEKS BEHIND, NOT AS BEHIND AS THEY WERE WHEN INFLATION FIRST TOOK OFF.

SO I THINK WE'RE STILL ON TRACK FOR A SOFT LANDING.

I THINK YOU'LL SEE THEM PIVOT PRETTY QUICKLY.

AND I THINK THE ARGUMENT FOR THEM TO CUT RATES IN SEPTEMBER AND MAYBE EVEN SOONER IS THAT THE KIND OF TIMING THEY NEED TO REDUCE DEMAND, WE STILL HAVE THAT GOING ON BECAUSE WE SAW A LOT OF ECONOMIC GROWTH.

THE ECONOMY IS STRONG.

BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN CREDIT MARKETS IS PRODUCING ITS OWN FORM OF TIGHTENING.

AND IF CREDIT MARKETS ARE GOING TO DO THAT, THEN THE FED CAN PULL BACK A LITTLE.

>> WE SAW A PERFECT STORM OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS.

OBVIOUSLY THAT MASSIVE SELL-OFF IN JAPAN AND THEN AS YOU SAID, WHAT MANY DIDN'T VIEW AS THAT SHOCKING OR TERRIBLE OF A JOBS REPORT.

NONE THE LESS, WE SAW HOW THE MARKETS REACTED.

CAN YOU SEPARATE FOR OUR VIEWERS WHAT'S HAPPENING IN JAPAN RIGHT NOW WITH THE U.S. >> WELL, JAPAN -- FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE VIEWERS TO UNDERSTAND THAT EVERY COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD THINKS WHEN THE U.S. SNEEZES, EVERYBODY ELSE COULD GET PNEUMONIA.

AND SO THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT THE U.S.

GOES INTO RECESSION AND HOW THAT'S GOING RICOCHET THROUGH.

JAPAN IS AN ECONOMY THAT HAS BEEN STRUGGLING FOR A LOT LONGER THAN THE UNITED STATES AND HAS REALLY SET OF FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS.

BUT EVEN THERE, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, WE'VE SEEN THE BOUNCEBACK TODAY.

SO IT'S NOT THE SAME ECONOMY.

IT IS AN ECONOMY WITH I THINK I WOULD SAY BIGGER PROBLEMS.

BIGGER PROBLEMS OF SLOW, SLUGGISH GROWTH.

AND, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE HAD THEIR OWN INFLATIONARY PROBLEMS, WHICH I THINK IS TOUGHER FOR JAPAN TO HANDLE.

>> AS WE KNOW, THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY MODELS TO FOLLOW IN TERMS OF SPECIFICALLY CALLING A RECESSION.

BUT SOME OF THIS CAN BE SELF REINFORCING.

AND IF YOU CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT IT AND THESE CONCERNS CONTINUE AND WE CONTINUE TO SEE SELL-OFFS AROUND THE WORLD AND NOW OBVIOUSLY CONCERNS ABOUT UNEMPLOYMENT TICKING UP, DOES THAT RAISE THE ALARM BELLS FOR YOU AT ALL IN TERMS OF MAYBE YOU NOT SEEING A RECESSION RIGHT NOW, BUT PERHAPS ANOTHER UNCERTAINTY DEVELOPING, PERHAPS A WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, A LARGER SCALE WAR THAT COULD IMPACT OIL PRICES.

HOW DO YOU FACTOR ALL OF THAT IN?

>> SO I WANT TO BE REALLY CLEAR ABOUT SOMETHING.

STOCK MARKETS HAVE NOTHING REALLY TO DO WITH RECESSION IN THE SENSE THAT'S TRADERS, A BUNCH OF PEOPLE MAKING INVESTMENTS, MAKING BETS, AND ALL OF THE SUDDEN THEY THINK MAYBE THOSE BETS AREN'T GOING TO PAY OFF AS WELL AS THEY PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT.

WHEN IT COMES TO RECESSION, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MAINSTREAM.

WE'RE TALK ABOUT ARE WE PRODUCING AS MUCH STUFF AS WE HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST.

AND RIGHT NOW THE FORECAST FOR Q3 OF THIS YEAR IS 2.6% GROWTH.

THAT'S PRETTY FAR FROM A RECESSION.

SO I DON'T THINK THAT WE'VE GOT ANYWHERE RECESSION AROUND THE CORNER.

I DO THINK THAT WE'VE SEEN THIS SLOWING ECONOMY, AND WE HAVE THE FED A LITTLE BIT BEHIND.

AND THAT RAISES THE RISKS OF A RECESSION COMPARED TO, SAY, EIGHT MONTHS AGO.

BUT I STILL THINK THAT THE RISK OF A RECESSION IS PRETTY LOW.

AND I LOVE THAT YOU MENTIONED WARS, BECAUSE WHAT CAUSES A RECESSION IS A BIG NEGATIVE SHOCK THAT DOES, YOU KNOW, CAUSES ALL TO PULL BACK OUR SPENDING SIMULTANEOUSLY AT THE SAME TIME IN A WAY THAT CAUSES THE ENTIRE ECONOMY TO SHRINK.

NOW THERE IS ONE CAVEAT THAT I DO WANT TO ADD, THOUGH, WHICH IS A LOT OF BUSINESSES OUT THERE, THEY JUST GO ALONG, THEY'RE DOING THEIR THINGS.

THE FUNDAMENTALS ARE FINE.

BUT THEY'RE SEEING A FALLING SHARE PRICE.

AND I THINK THE THING WE NEED TO AVOID A RECESSION IS TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE AREN'T COMPANIES MAKING DUMB DECISIONS TO -- BECAUSE OF A FALLING SHARE PRICE IF THEY'VE GOT THE FUNDAMENTALS RIGHT.

HAVE A SECOND LOOK.

MAKE SURE YOU'VE GOT THE FUNDAMENTALS RIGHT.

BUT IF YOU'RE OVERREACTING TO YOUR SHARE PRICE, WELL, YOU CAN DO SOMETHING THAT'S LESS EFFICIENT.

AND IF A BUNCH OF COMPANIES DO THAT, THAT COULD PUSH US INTO A RECESSION BECAUSE ALL OF THE SUDDEN COMPANIES START DOING DUMB THINGS THAT MEAN THEY'RE LESS PRODUCTIVE.

>> AS YOU KNOW, WE ARE IN AN ELECTION SEASON RIGHT NOW, AND THE ECONOMY TRADITIONALLY IS THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE.

FOR VOTERS.

AS SOMEBODY WHO WORKED IN A DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION, I'M CURIOUS TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS AS TO HOW KAMALA HARRIS GOING OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL NOW CAN FOCUS SPECIFICALLY ON CONCERNS THE VOTERS MAY HAVE ABOUT THE ECONOMY, ABOUT JOB SECURITY, ABOUT INFLATION EVEN.

>> WELL, KAMALA HARRIS HAS A TOUGH JOB BECAUSE SHE NEEDS TO BOTH TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE GOOD THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN THE BIDEN-HARRIS ADMINISTRATION AND DISTANCE HERSELF FROM THE THINGS PEOPLE DON'T LIKE.

SHE'S FORTUNATE IN THAT SHE GETS THAT OPTION, BUT I THINK IT IS TOUGH.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS INFLATION HAS COME DOWN.

IN ORDER TO BEAT INFLATION, WE TYPICALLY DO HAVE TO HAVE A SLOWING ECONOMY.

WE'VE MANAGED TO DO IT.

THAT SOFT LANDING WITHOUT HAVING A RECESSION, THAT'S AMAZING.

BUT NOBODY ACTUALLY LIKES INFLATION OR A SLOWING ECONOMY.

SO EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE BEEN COMPLAINING ABOUT INFLATION, SHE CAN, YOU KNOW -- THE CURE IS NOT SOMETHING THEY LIKE EITHER.

SO WHAT SHE'S GOT TO DO IS EMPHASIZE THE THINGS THAT ARE REALLY GOING ON, WHICH IS WE STILL HAVE RECORD LOW UNEMPLOYMENT.

IT HAS RISEN, THAT'S A CHANGE.

BUT THE PUBLIC TYPICALLY PAYS ATTENTION TO LEVELS.

HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE JOBS, HOW MANY PEOPLE DON'T HAVE JOBS.

AND WHAT WE HAVE IS A SHARE OF THE POPULATION THAT IS UNEMPLOYED THAT IS STILL AT RECORD HISTORIC LOWS.

AND IF I WAS HER, I WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THAT AND TALKING ABOUT WHAT SHE IS GOING TO DO TO CONTINUE TO CREATE EXCELLENT JOB OPPORTUNITIES IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> YEAH, AND IT'S GOING TO BE MUCH TRICKIER, AS YOU KNOW, AGAINST AN OPPONENT LIKE DONALD TRUMP, WHO TAKES CREDIT FOR ALL GOOD ECONOMIC NEWS AND BLAMES THE OTHER SIDE WHEN THERE IS BAD NEWS.

BETSEY STEVENSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

IT'S REALLY GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

SAY HI TO JUSTIN FOR US.

>>> WELL, AS MARKET JITTERS IN THE U.S., THE SHOCKWAVES ARE BEING CLOSELY WATCHED IN CHINA.

CALCULATING HOW CHANGES IN THE STOCK MARKETS AND THE WHITE HOUSE COULD AFFECT THE FUTURE OF THE WORLD'S SECOND LARGEST ECONOMY.

CHINA'S ECONOMIC LEADERSHIP HAS BEEN BUILT ATOP DECADES OF COMMUNIST AUTHORITARIAN RULE.

FEW PEOPLE HAVE EXPERIENCED THIS AS CLOSELY AS EDWARD WONG.

HE CHRONICLES HOW HIS FAMILY AND THE NATION GRAPPLED WITH THE POLITICAL EVOLUTION THAT PAVED CHINA'S PATH TO GLOBAL ASCENDANCE.

HE JOINED WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HIS LATEST WORK.

>> EDWARD WONG, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN, WALTER.

>> I WANT TO READ A SENTENCE FROM NEAR THE BEGINNING OF YOUR NEW BOOK.

YOU SAY "WHEN I WAS IN MY 20s, FATHER SHOWED ME A SMALL BLACK AND WHITE PHOTOGRAPH OF HIMSELF THAT I'D NEVER SEEN BEFORE.

HE PLACED IT IN MY HAND AS WE SAT TOGETHER IN THE LIVING ROOM OF MY CHILDHOOD HOME OUTSIDE OF WASHINGTON, D.C.

IT HAD BEEN TAKEN IN CHINA IN 1953.

HIS EYES GLIMMERED AND SKIN HAD NONE OF THE LINES OF AGE.

HE WORE A PLAIN MILITARY UNIFORM AND A CAP.

I RAN A FINGER OVER A DARKENED SPOT IN THE CENTER OF THE SHADOW THERE.

FATHER SAID THAT'S WHERE THE RED STAR HAD BEEN, A SYMBOL OF THE PEOPLE'S LIBERATION ARMY."

THIS STARTIOUS ON THIS JOURNEY, FINDING OUT ABOUT YOUR FAMILY AND HOW IT'S INTERWOVEN WITH CHINESE HISTORY.

TELL ME HOW THAT PROPELLED YOU.

>> WELL, WHEN I WAS IN MY 20s, I STARTED GETTING MUCH MORE INTEREST IN CHINA.

I WENT TO STUDY MANDARIN IN BEIJING.

I TOOK COURSES IN CHINESE POLITICS IN GRAD SCHOOL.

SO I THOUGHT AT THE TIME I'D LEARN A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT WHAT MY PARENTS HAD BEEN UP TO DURING THESE GREAT YEARS OF UPHEAVAL UNDER MAO'S REGIME.

I LEARNED THAT MY MOTHER FLED CHINA FAIRLY EARLY AGE BECAUSE THEY WERE LANDOWNERS.

THE COMMUNISTS PERSECUTED THEM.

MY FATHER HAD A MUCH MORE COMPLICATED HISTORY, AND HE STARTED TELLING ME A BIT OF THAT.

HE TOLD ME HOW HE HAD SERVED IN THE ARMY, AND HE EVENTUALLY FLED NOW I KNEW SOME OF THE GENERAL CONTOURS OF THAT.

BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL AFTER I FINISHED A LONG TOUR IN CHINA FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," I WAS THERE FROM 2008 TO THE END OF 2016 AND THEN MOVED BACK TO WASHINGTON THAT I REALLY STARTED PROBING DEEPER INTO HIS STORY, BECAUSE IT WAS ONLY AFTER LIVING IN CHINA AND GOING TO MANY OF THE PLACES WHERE MY PARENTS HAD LIVED, WHERE MY FATHER HAD SERVED IN THE ARMY IN THE NORTHEAST OF MANCHURIA, IN THE NORTHWEST THAT I COULD UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT FOR THE QUESTIONS THAT I WANTED TO ASK HIM.

SO I PROBED DEEPER INTO HOW AND WHY HE HAD JOINED THE ARMY, AND ALSO WHAT HE DID THROUGHOUT AS PART OF THIS MILITARY OCCUPATION THAT MAO ORDERED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF COMMUNIST RULE.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR FATHER AND HIS BROTHER, AND THE SUBTITLE IS THE FAMILY'S RECKONING WITH CHINA.

YOUR FATHER'S BROTHER SAM GOES THE OTHER WAY, LEAVES CHINA.

WHY WAS THAT AND HOW HAS THAT REFLECTED -- THEY'RE BOTH STILL ALIVE TODAY.

HOW IS THAT REFLECTED IN THEIR OUTLOOK.

>> SURE.

SAM GOT A SCHOLARSHIP WHEN HE GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL RIGHT BEFORE THE CHINESE CIVIL WAR ENDED, WALTER, RIGHT BEFORE 1949 WHEN THE COMMUNISTS TOOK OVER.

AND HE DECIDED TO GO BACK TO HONG KONG WHERE HE HAD BEEN BORN AND THEN GO FROM THERE TO AMERICA.

PART OF THE IRONY OF THE STORY OF COURSE IS THAT HE EVENTUALLY BECOMES AN ENGINEER FOR THE U.S. MILITARY, FIRST IN THE ARMY AND THEN FOR DECADES IN THE NAVY, WHEREAS MY FATHER WENT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.

HE GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL IN SOUTHERN CHINA A FEW YEARS AFTER SAM.

AND INSTEAD OF GOING TO HONG KONG WHERE HE HAD BEEN BORN AND FORCED TO LEAVE DURING THE JAPANESE OCCUPATION, HE DECIDES TO GO TO BEIJING INSTEAD.

AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS BECAUSE HE HAD BECOME ENAMORED OF THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION.

HE THOUGHT THAT MAO WAS AUTHENTIC IN WANTING TO BRING CHANGE TO CHINA AND WANTING TO TRANSFORM CHINA AND PUT IT ON PAR WITH BRITAIN AND WITH AMERICA AT THE TIME.

AND HE THOUGHT THAT THE COMMUNISTS COULD UNITE CHINA AND MAKE IT STRONG WHILE THE NATIONALISTS HAD FAILED BECAUSE OF CORRUPTION IN THEIR GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE OF THEIR MISMANAGEMENT, BECAUSE OF THEIR POOR ECONOMIC POLICIES.

SO MY FATHER REALLY BELIEVED HE COULD HELP BUILD CHINA INTO A STRONGER NATION.

AND THAT'S WHEN HE TO BEIJING, TOOK PART IN A MILITARY PARADE, ALSO A PARADE OF STUDENTS AND WORKERS IN FRONT OF MAO IN TIANANMEN SQUARE IN 1950.

AND VERY SHORTLY AFTERWARDS, SIGNED UP TO JOIN THE NEW AIR FORCE IN ORDER TO FIGHT THE AMERICANS ON THE KOREAN PENINSULA.

>> BUT THEY SEND HIM OFF TO XINJIANG PROVINCE.

I REMEMBER BEING IN KASHGAR ONCE.

THEY USE THE GREAT PHRASE, THE HEAVEN IS HIGH AND THE EMPEROR IS FAR AWAY.

THEY'RE ON THE EDGE OF EMPIRE.

AND THAT'S WHAT YOUR BOOK'S TITLE.

WHAT IS IT ABOUT CHINA THAT HAS ALL THESE EDGES OF EMPIRE, INCLUDING WHERE YOUR FATHER WAS SENT?

>> ONE OF THE THEMES I REALLY WANTED TO BRING OUT IN THE BOOK IS IN A WAY, CHINA IS DEFINED BY THESE FRONTIER REGIONS.

AND THEY'RE NOT REALLY FRONTIERS WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

THE AREAS OF SYNJAN, THE TIBETAN AREAS, THEY MAKE UP A THIRD OF CHINA.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, CHINA REALLY IS THE LAST OF THE BIG YOU'RE RATION EMPIRES TO SURVIVE.

THE BRITISH, THE OTTOMANS, THE RUSSIANS, THEY ALL FELL APART BECAUSE OF THE WORLD WARS.

CHINA, ON THE OTHER HAND, WAS ABLE TO RECONSTITUTE ITSELF AS AN EMPIRE UNDER THE COMMUNISTS WHEN MAO TOOK OVER.

AND THEN WHEN HE SENT TROOPS INTO SYNJAN, INTO TIBET TO OCCUPY THOSE REGIONS, MY FATHER WAS IN THE VANGUARD OF THOSE TROOPS BEING SENT OUT IN THE EARLY '50s.

HE BECAME PART OF THAT MILITARY OCCUPATION.

AND IN MY ASSESSMENT OF THIS, MUCH OF THE RULE OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY IS DEFINED BY THIS IDEA THAT THEY HAVE TO HOLD ON TO THE EMPIRE.

THEY HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT IT DOESN'T FALL APART.

ONE OF THE MAIN NARRATIVE TRACKS OF THE BOOK IS CONTEMPORARY CHINA FROM 2008 ONWAR AND THE RULE AND HOW THAT'S CHANGED UNDER HIM.

I SAY IN THE BOOK ONE OF XI'S BIG FEARS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO SOVIET UNION.

HE TALKED ABOUT THAT PRIVATELY WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN IN A DINNER 2011 IN CHINA.

HE'S TALKED ABOUT THAT IN PRIVATE SPEECHES WITH COMMUNIST PARTY OFFICIALS.

I DUG ALL THAT OUT FOR THE BOOK.

AND WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT THAT, HE HAS IN HIS HEAD THE IDEA OF THE SOVIET TERRITORIES LIKE THE CENTRAL ASIAN TERRITORIES REALLY LEAVING THE EMPIRE.

AND I THINK HE HAS A GREAT FEAR OF THAT IN CHINA.

SO THE INCREASING USE OF FORCE AND PARANOIA AND THE IDEA OF CHINA AS A STATE THAT MUST MAINTAIN INTERNAL SECURITY IS EVER PRESENT FOR XI BECAUSE OF THIS.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR FATHER MARCHING THROUGH TIANANMEN SQUARE WITH THE TROOPS BEING REVIEWED BY MAO ZEDONG.

AND THEN OF COURSE WHEN YOU GO TO CHINA AS A CORRESPONDENT FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," YOU'RE THERE.

YOU SEE THE SAME THING.

YOU WATCH THE TROOPS.

DID YOU HARKEN BACK TO YOUR FATHER'S EXPERIENCE?

YOU USE IN THE BOOK A WONDERFUL PHRASE OF A MOBIUS TRAP OF YOUR FAMILY'S HISTORY AND CHINA'S INTERTWINING.

>> YEAH, THAT REALLY STRUCK ME.

I'VE SEEN A MILITARY PARADE NOW TWICE IN TIANANMEN SQUARE WITH XI PRESIDING.

AND OF COURSE YOU'RE STRUCK BY THE PHYSICALITY OF IT, WALTER.

YOU SEE THESE LONG LINES OF TROOPS OF ALL THE ARMORED VEHICLES, OF EVEN THE BALLISTIC MISSILES THEY ROLL OUT.

MY FATHER SAW SOMETHING ON A SMALLER SCALE.

I FEEL THERE IS A CERTAIN ECHO OF HISTORY HERE.

I FELT MY FATHER MUST HAVE BEEN A FEW YARDS OR A FEW HUNDRED YARDS AWAY FROM ME, AND ACTUALLY IN THE PARADE, MARCHING IN FRONT OF MAO JUST LIKE THESE TROOPS ARE DOING, WANTING TO SEE SOME SORT OF SIGN OF APPROVAL FROM THE GREAT LEADER.

ALL ACTING OUT OF PATRIOTISM OR NATIONALISM.

AND I REALLY FELT THAT SENSE THERE IN TIANANMEN SQUARE.

SO I FEEL LIKE A LOT OF THE FEELINGS OF CHINA BECOMING A STRONGER NATION, OF THE NATIONALISM THAT COURSES THROUGH MANY CHINESE CITIZENS AND THROUGH THE CITY OF BEIJING TODAY, IT HAS THEIR FOUNDATIONS EARLIER, MUCH EARLIER IN THE MAO ERA.

>> YOU THINK THERE IS A DIRECT LINE FROM MAO TO XI JINPING?

>> I DO THINK THAT.

I THINK XI HIMSELF SEES THAT.

HE HAS PROCLAIMED HIMSELF A CORE LEADER LIKE MAO ZEDONG WERE CONSIDERED CORE LEADERS.

AND HE SEES HIMSELF AS A GUARDIAN OF A LEGACY OF THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION AND OF THE PARTY'S POWER.

I THINK HE SEES THAT MORE SHARPLY THAN SOME OF HIS PREDECESSORS.

HE COMES FROM RED ROYALTY.

HE IS A PRINCELING.

HIS FATHER WAS ONE OF MAO'S COMPATRIOTS AND WAS A SENIOR LEADER IN THE COMMUNIST PARTY EVEN THOUGH FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD HE WAS PERSECUTED BY MAO.

I THINK XI SEES HIMSELF AS A GUARANTOR OF ALL THAT.

>> SO YOUR FATHER WANTS TO JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY.

HE SEEMED EXCITED WHEN IT SEEMS LIKE A POSSIBILITY.

AND YET HE DOESN'T GET SELECTED TO JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY.

AND THAT'S A HINGE IN THE BOOK WHERE HE SORT OF GETS DISILLUSIONED.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> THE ROOTS GO BACK TO WHEN HE WAS IN MANCHURIA, HOPING TO GO WITH THE AIR FORCE INTO KOREA TO FIGHT THE AMERICANS.

AND INSTEAD HE GETS SENT TO SYNJAN AS YOU POINTED OUT.

HE SUSPECTED SOMETHING WAS UP AT THAT TIME.

HE SUSPECTED HE WAS SENT INTO EXILE.

IN SYNJAN, HE WINS THE CONFIDENCE OF MILITARY COMMANDERS.

HE GETS A CHANCE TO GO BACK INTO INTERIOR CHINA TO STUDY ENGINEERING.

HE WANTS TO BUILD MILITARY AIRCRAFT FOR THE COUNTRY.

AND HE'S GOT A PENDING APPLICATION TO BE A PARTY MEMBER.

SOME SENIOR OFFICIALS IN SYNJAN HAVE RECOMMENDED THAT HE BE ALLOWED TO JOIN THE PARTY, AND HE HAS HIGH HOPES FOR DOING THAT.

THEN HE DISCOVERS THROUGH CONVERSATIONS WITH OTHER OFFICIALS THAT THEY STILL DON'T TRUST HIM.

HE HAS SOMETHING IN HIS BACKGROUND DOSSIER.

AND HE REALIZES IT'S BECAUSE HE COMES FROM A MERCHANT FAMILY THAT LIVED IN HONG KONG.

HE WAS BORN THERE IN THE BRITISH COLONY, AND HIS BROTHER, AS YOU KNOW, HAD GONE TO AMERICA TO STUDY THERE.

AND SO THE COMMUNIST SUSPECTED THIS ABOUT HIS BACKGROUND AT THE TIME IN MAO'S CHINA, THERE WAS HUNTS FOR SUBVERSIVES.

THERE WERE CAMPAIGNS AGAINST COUNTER REVOLUTIONARIES.

YOU NEVER KNOW WHO MIGHT BE CAST UNDER THIS SHADOW OF SUSPICION.

SO MY FATHER REALIZED THERE IS SOMETHING STRUCTURALLY WRONG WITH THE PARTY THAT SOMEONE LIKE HIMSELF WHO HAD MADE ALL THESE SACRIFICES FOR THE PARTY AND FOR THE ARMY COULD NOT BE TRUSTED.

AND I THINK HE REALIZED THAT BECAUSE OF THIS DYNAMIC OF POWER AND OF FEAR AND SUSPICION, THAT HE WOULD NEVER BE TRUSTED.

HE ALSO EXPERIENCED THE GREAT FAMINE THAT HAPPENED WHEN MAO INSTITUTED HIS DISASTROUS ECONOMIC POLICIES UNDER THE GREAT LEAP FORWARD.

30 MILLION TO 40 MILLION CHINESE DIED DURING THAT PERIOD.

MY FATHER FELL ILL, AS DID HIS CLASSMATES.

THOSE ALONG WITH A FEW OTHER FACTS FOR LIKE MAO'S PURGE OF MILITARY COMMANDERS THEN SPURRED HIM TO MAKE A FLIGHT TO HONG KONG.

HE REALIZED HE HAD NO FUTURE IN CHINA THAT CHINA WAS HEADING THE WRONG DIRECTION AT THE TIME.

MAO HAD KEPT HIS GRIP ON POWER FOR TOO LONG AND HE NEEDED TO GET OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

>> PARTWAY THROUGH THE BOOK, RYAN RHEINHOLD NABOR, YOU LOOK AT A PERCEPTION OF AMERICA'S OWN INDEPENDENCE AND STRUCK YOU ABOUT CHINA AS WELL.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> THING ARE A LOT OF PARALLELS BETWEEN AMERICA AND CHINA.

I THINK THIS IS MANY THINGS AMERICANS MISS, EVEN ANALYSTS IN WASHINGTON, FOR EXAMPLE.

I THINK BOTH COUNTRIES SEE THEMSELVES AS GREAT POWERS, AND I DON'T MEAN JUST THE LEADERS, THE LEADERS AND THE CITIZENS.

THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS POWERS THAT HAVE SOMETHING TO GIVE TO THE WORLD, AND THAT THE WORLD SHOULD ACCEPT THAT AND APPRECIATE IT AS WELL.

AND I THINK AMERICANS FEEL STRONGLY THAT WAY.

AMERICA, AS YOU KNOW, HAS A CERTAIN MISSIONARY ZEAL IN ITS FOREIGN POLICY.

IT WANTS TO SPREAD DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD.

WE SEE THAT AS RECENTLY AS BIDEN, WHO HAS FRAMED HIS FOREIGN POLICY AS DEMOCRACY VERSUS AUTOCRACY.

THEY SAY THEY DON'T WANT REGIME CHANGE IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL THE RHETORIC THAT COMES OUT OF AMERICAN LEADERS AND POLICYMAKERS, THEY WOULD PREVIEW IT IF OTHER COUNTRIES ADOPTED DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS AND CERTAIN NORMS.

I THINK CHINA, CHINA ISN'T TRYING TO IMPOSE ITS EXACT POLITICAL SYSTEM ON OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT IT WOULD LIKE OTHER COUNTRIES TO ACCEPT CERTAIN THINGS THAT CHINA IS GIVING IT.

I THINK CHINA BELIEVES ITS ECONOMIC SYSTEM MIGHT BE BETTER THAN THAT OF MANY OTHER COUNTRIES, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES.

I THINK IT FEELS THAT IF OTHER COUNTRIES ADOPTED ITS VISION OF ECONOMIC PERFORMANCE, OF TRADE, AND TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, OF POLITICS, THEN THOSE COUNTRIES WOULD BENEFIT.

AND I THINK NEITHER COUNTRY SEES THE NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES THAT COULD RESULT FROM TRYING TO PERSUADE OR IMPOSE THESE POLICIES ON OTHER NATIONS.

>> WHAT DOES CHINA FEEL ITS LEADERSHIP, AND MAYBE EVEN ITS PEOPLE ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF DONALD TRUMP BEING PRESIDENT AGAIN?

>> THAT'S A COMPLICATED QUESTION.

I DON'T -- I'M NOT IN THE HEADS OF THE LEADERS, BUT I HAVE SPOKEN TO SOME CHINESE SCHOLARS AND ANALYSTS WHO ARE CLOSE TO THE PARTY AND CLOSE TO SOME DECISION MAKERS.

THEY SAY THAT -- THAT THERE IS A FEELING THAT TRUMP BEING HEAD OF THE UNITED STATES WILL BE BETTER FOR CHINA'S INTERESTS IN THE LONG-TERM.

AND THEY SAY THIS BECAUSE WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT BIDEN HAS DONE, THEY SEE THAT BIDEN HAS STRENGTHENED THE MILITARY ALLIANCES OF THE U.S. AROUND ASIA.

THEY FEEL THAT IS THERE A POSITIVE CONTAINMENT NOW THAT BIDEN HAS BEEN PUSHING.

AND ALSO BIDEN KEPT THE TARIFFS THAT TRUMP IMPOSED ON CHINA IN PLACE WHILE ALSO STARTING A NEW POLICY OF TRYING TO RESTRICT VERY SENSITIVE HIGH-TECH COMPONENTS TO CHINA, SEMICONDUCTORS, ADVANCED SEMICONDUCTOR TOOLING EQUIPMENT, THINGS THAT ALL COUNTRIES NEED IN ORDER TO MAKE THE NEXT GREAT TECHNOLOGICAL LEAP.

AND SO CHINA SEES THIS POLICY OF WHAT THEY CALL CONTAINMENT AS MUCH MORE COHESIVE IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THAN IT WAS UNDER TRUMP.

NOW THEY HAD NO LOVE FOR WHAT TRUMP DID.

TRUMP, OF COURSE, IMPOSED TARIFFS, STARTED THIS TRADE WAR, AND THEY -- THERE WAS MUCH ANXIETY ABOUT THAT.

BUT I THINK THEY SEE THAT AS A LESSER PROBLEM THAN THE MORE HOLISTIC POLICY THAT BIDEN HAS STARTED.

AND THEY ALSO THINK THAT TRUMP CANNOT STRENGTHEN AMERICA'S ALLIANCES IN THE SAME WAY BIDEN HAS DONE.

IN FACT, IF ANYTHING, THEY THINK TRUMP ERODES AMERICA'S ALLIANCES AND SOWS DISTRUST AMONG AMERICAN ALLIES IN THE U.S. AND I THINK THEY FEEL THAT THAT BENEFITS THEM IN THE LONG RUN.

>> XI JINPING HAS EMBRACED A NATIONALISM AND AN AUTHORITARIANISM IN ORDER TO RULE CHINA WITH MORE POWER.

BUT WE'VE ALSO SEEN THAT AROUND THE WORLD.

THIS SEEMS TO BE A TREND, WHETHER IT'S PUTIN OR BAN OR MANY OTHERS, WE EVEN SEE THAT IN THE UNITED STATES.

TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK THIS IS A TREND?

AND WHAT DO THE CHINESE THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> I DO THINK THAT THERE IS MOMENTUM RIGHT NOW IN THE WORLD FOR A RETHINKING OF DEMOCRACY AND OF WHETHER AUTHORITARIANISM IS THE WAY TO GO FOR MANY OF THESE COUNTRIES.

I MEAN, IT GOES BACK AND FORTH, WALTER.

WE'VE SEEN, FOR EXAMPLE, SOME SETBACKS TO THE FAR RIGHT IN RECENT ELECTIONS IN EUROPE.

BUT I ALSO THINK IN THE U.S. WE'RE ALSO GRAPPLING WITH THIS IDEA OF WHETHER CERTAIN AUTHORITARIAN WAYS OF GOVERNING MIGHT BE BETTER THAN MESSY DEMOCRACY.

I THINK YOU SEE THIS NOT JUST IN THE PUSH AND PULL BETWEEN THE REPUBLICANS AND THE DEMOCRATS, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT POLLING AMONG MILLENNIALS, YOU SEE A LOT OF THEM SAY DEMOCRACY ISN'T NECESSARILY THAT IMPORTANT TO GOVERNANCE OF THE UNITED STATES.

I THINK A LARGE PART OF IT IS AN EROSION OF OUR MEMORIES FROM THE MID 20th CENTURY, WALTER, THAT THERE IS AS THE OLDER GENERATIONS FADE AWAY, YOUNGER PEOPLE FORGET THE WARS THAT WERE FOUGHT IN THE 20th CENTURY AND OF THE RISE OF AUTHORITARIANISM.

I DO THINK THAT CHINA DOES PRESENT TO CERTAIN DEGREE A MODEL FOR SOME PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMIC BOOM THAT THE COMMUNIST PARTY HAS MANAGED TO OVERSEE IN CHINA.

AND THE FACT THAT THE PARTY OFTENTIMES IN RECENT DECADES HAS SEEMED ADAPTABLE.

WE HAVE TO ADMIT THAT IT HAS BEEN ABLE TO PICK AND CHOOSE POLICIES AND PUT IN PLACE ONES THAT HAVE ALLOWED THE COUNTRY TO GROW, EVEN AS IT MAINTAINS THIS REPRESSIVE SECURITY STATE IN MANY PARTS OF CHINA, ESPECIALLY IN THE WESTERN REGIONS AS WE TALKED ABOUT.

AND ONE EXAMPLE IS THE RECENT ZERO COVID POLICY THAT XI ADOPTED.

IT WAS VERY STRICT.

PEOPLE TOOK TO THE STREETS IN ORDER TO PROTEST IT, AND XI IMMEDIATELY DROPPED IT.

IT'S AMAZING.

HE TURNED AROUND.

MANY ANALYSTS HERE IN THE U.S.

WERE SKEPTICAL HE WOULD DROP THAT POLICY.

THEY SAID IT WAS PERSONAL POLICY OF XI'S.

BUT AS SOON AS HE RECOGNIZED THAT PRESSURE BUILT TO A CERTAIN POINT, HE IMMEDIATELY REVERSED COURSE AND WENT THE EXACT OPPOSITE DIRECTION.

I THINK THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF THE ADAPTATION WE SEE IN THE COMMUNIST PARTY.

THAT TYPE OF POLICY MAKING MIGHT HAVE APPEAL TO SOME PEOPLE IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

>> EDWARD WONG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS A LOT, WALTER.

>>> AND FINALLY, WE WANTED TO LEAVE YOU WITH A FEW INSPIRATIONAL STORIES FROM THE OLYMPICS SO FAR.

BOXER SYNDROMIAN GABA HAS MADE RECORDS.

AS A GAY WOMAN, SHE CAN'T RETURN TO HER HOME COUNTRY OF CAMEROON WHERE HOMOSEXUALITY IS ILLEGAL.

SHE IS GUARANTEED AT LEAST A BRONZE MEDAL FOR THE TEAM.

AND KIMIA YUSUFI IS AN AFGHAN RUNNER WHO AFTER RUNNING HER RACE HELD UP A SIGN THAT SAID EDUCATION, SPORTS, OUR RIGHTS.

SENDING A POWERFUL MESSAGE TO THE TALIBAN.

AND SWIMMER VALERIE TARAZI WHO CARRIED THE PALESTINIAN FLAG DURING THE OPENING CEREMONY SPOKE TO AMANDA DAVIES ABOUT HER USING THE PLATFORM TO ADVOCATE FOR PEACE.

>> MY LITTLE BIT OF FEAR IS NOT THE FEAR FOR MY LIFE.

YOU HAVE PEOPLE IN GAZA, IN THE WISCONSIN BANK THAT HAVE TO FEAR FOR THEIR LIFE EVERY SINGLE DAY.

SO ME SPEAKING OUT AND DOING IT, AGAIN, IN THE MOST PEACEFUL MANNER, I DON'T THINK THAT'S AN ISSUE.

>> INCREDIBLE STORIES OF ATHLETES DEFYING ALL ODDS AND PROMOTING PEACE AND EQUALITY.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.