August 8, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> AS YOU THE KYIV RENTAL JET STREAM HAS UNDERTAKEN ANOTHER LARGE SCALE PROVOCATION.

>> UKRAINE RAISES THE STAKES AFTER RUSSIA ACCUSES IT OF A MASSIVE ATTACK INTO ITS TERRITORY.

WELL GET THE LATEST.

>>> AND ANTI-RACISM PROTESTERS COUNTER FAR RIGHT RIOTS IN THE UK, BUT AS DISINFORMATION CONTINUES TO SPREAD ONLINE, I ASK JOURNALIST EMILY GLAZER AND NICHOLAS THOMPSON WHAT GOVERNMENTS CAN DO.

>> THE LANDSCAPE OF OPPORTUNITY IS CHANGING QUITE A BIT IN AMERICA.

>> REACHING THE AMERICAN DREAM.

OUR HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS WITH RAJ CHETTY, DIRECTOR OF HARVARD'S INSIDE INITIATIVE ABOUT ACHIEVING MOBILITY IN TODAY'S AMERICA.

>>> PLUS, AS THE OLYMPICS REACH THE FINISH LINE, I ASK SPORTS COLUMNIST CHRISTINE BRENNAN ABOUT WHETHER PARIS DELIVERED.

♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

A MASSIVE ATTACK BY UKRAINE.

THAT'S HOW RUSSIA DESCRIBES A DARING INCURSION BY UKRAINIAN TROOPS INTO ITS KURSK RENAL.

THE EXTENT OF THE ATTACK REMAINS UNCLEAR.

BUT THIS IS WHAT UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY SAID TODAY.

>> Translator: AND NOW FIRST OF ALL, I ADDRESS OUR UKRAINIAN WARRIORS, OUR SOLDIERS, SERGEANTS, OFFICERS, AND GENERALS.

EVERYONE SEES THAT THE UKRAINIAN ARMY CAN SURPRISE AND IT CAN ACHIEVE RESULTS.

>> WHILE RUSSIA CLAIMS IT HAS STOPPED THE INCURSION, EVIDENCE FROM THE GROUND SUGGESTS FIGHTING IS ONGOING.

THIS COMES AS RUSSIA FORCES CREEP EVEN CLOSER TO THE STRATEGICALLY IMPORTANT CITY OF POKROVSK IN EASTERN UKRAINE, THREATENING A VITAL SUPPLY LINE FOR KYIV.

SO WHAT IS THE STRATEGY HERE FOR UKRAINE?

AND WHAT IS THE UNITED STATES, A KEY ALLY OF KYIV, MAKE OF THIS.

ROSE GOTTEMOELLER IS THE FORMER NATO DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL AND SHE JOINS ME NOW FROM MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA.

ROSE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THIS SEEMED TO CATCH EVERYBODY BY SURPRISE, AND RUSSIA CLAIMS THAT THEY HAVE STOPPED THIS INCURSION.

WE DON'T HAVE CONFIRMATION OF THAT, AND THIS NOW APPEARS TO BE ENTERING ITS THIRD DAY.

WE'VE SEEN SINCE AUGUST 6th THAT RUSSIA HAS LOST AT LEAST 350 SQUARE MILES OF ITS TERRITORY.

REPORTS ARE THAT A FEW TO ONE THOUSAND SOLDIERS TOOK PART IN THIS.

THAT'S COMING FROM RUSSIA.

IT APPEARS THE EVIDENCE SUGGESTS IT'S MUCH LARGER, THAT UKRAINE HAS COMMITTED UNITS FROM AT LEAST FOUR ELITE BRIGADES.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS MOVE?

AND IS IT DARING OR TOO RISKY AS I SHOULD QUOTE SOME IN THE INDUSTRY NOW IN MILITARY OFFICIALS SAY FOR UKRAINE TO BE MAKING?

>> WELL, IT'S INTERESTING ZELENSKYY'S REMARK THAT THE ARMED FORCES OF UKRAINE KNOW HOW TO SURPRISE.

ACTUALLY, THE KYIV GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN KEEPING A STRICT SILENCE ON THIS OPERATION, WHICH IS VERY INTERESTING.

IT'S WHAT WE KNOW.

WE'VE BEEN HEARING FROM TAAS AND FROM THE RUSSIAN, BUT ALSO OF COURSE FROM OUR INDEPENDENT SATELLITE SCRUTINY OF WHAT'S GOING ON THE GROUND.

SO IT'S VERY INTERESTING, THOUGH, THAT THE UKRAINIANS ARE NEITHER CONFIRMING NOR DENYING, JUST A LITTLE HINT FROM ZELENSKYY ABOUT HOW GOOD HIS TROOPS ARE.

AND I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE TO MY MIND, WHAT THE UKRAINIANS ARE TRYING TO DO IS KNOCK THE RUSSIANS OFF BALANCE AT A TIME WHEN THE RUSSIANS HAVE FELT THAT THEY HAVE HAD THE INITIATIVE IN THEIR SUMMER OFFENSIVE.

SO THIS IS CLEARLY TRYING TO INSERT SOME UNCERTAINTY ON THE RUSSIAN SIDE AND FORCE THEM TO DRAW TROOPS TO THE KURSK REGION.

>> BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT ASIDE FROM THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE, THAT RUSSIA CAN AFFORD TO LOSE MORE TROOPS THAN UKRAINE CAN.

AND GIVEN IF THIS ACTUALLY IS TRUE, THAT THERE ARE AT LEAST FOUR ELITE BRIGADES HERE, IS IT WISE TO COMMIT SUCH A LARGE SCALE NUMBER OF TROOPS FOR UKRAINE AT A TIME WHEN THEIR FRONT LINES ARE REALLY SPREAD THIN?

>> I CAN'T SECOND GUESS DECISION-MAKING OF EITHER PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY OR THE HIGH COMMAND IN KYIV, BUT I WOULD SAY THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE COMMITTED A SEASONED TROOPS TO THIS OPERATION IS A SIGN THAT THEY FEEL A CERTAIN CONFIDENCE THAT THEY CAN HAIRY THE RUSSIANS THAT WILL GIVE A EMPLOYEE TO MORALE AND AMONG RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES, BUT ALSO SENDS IMPORTANT MESSAGES ABOUT UKRAINIAN RESOLVE TO CONTINUE FIGHTING THIS FIGHT.

>> WE KNOW THAT PREVIOUS INCURSIONS WERE USUALLY LED BY THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE, OUR MILITANT EXILE GROUPS.

THE FACT THAT THESE APPEAR TO BE UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS SUGGESTS THAT THIS IS A DIFFERENT STRATEGY HERE, AND THAT IS AN INCURSION OF A DIFFERENT SCALE.

DO YOU ANTICIPATE THAT WE'LL SEE MORE INCURSIONS LIKE THIS IN THE WEEKS AND MONTHS TO COME?

>> IT'S HARD FOR ME TO SAY, BUT I WILL TAKE NOTE OF THIS IMPORTANT ANNIVERSARY TIME.

THIS IS THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE FAMOUS WORLD WAR II BATTLE AROUND -- IN AND AROUND THE KURSK SALIENT.

AND OF COURSE BOTH UKRAINIAN AND RUSSIAN SOLDIERS REMEMBER THIS VERY WELL.

THE HISTORY OF THAT BATTLE IS THAT IT WAS A MAJOR TURNING POINT IN THAT WAR AS THE RUSSIANS AT THE TIME, THE SOVIET TROOPS DEFEATED THE NAZIS AND HITLER BEGAN THE PROCESS OF THE SLOW WITHDRAWAL FROM THE SOVIET UNION.

SO I THINK THIS IS AN ECHO THAT BOTH SIDES WILL REMEMBER VERY WELL.

THIS IS SACRED GROUND SO TO SAY.

I DO THINK THERE IS AN ENORMOUS SYMBOLISM IN WHAT THE UKRAINIANS ARE DOING.

ALSO, THE FACT THAT THEY ARE ATTACKING IN AND AROUND THE LAST POINT OF GAS TRANSIT FROM RUSSIA TO UKRAINE SHOWS THAT THEY HAVE A CERTAIN I WILL SAY CONFIDENCE IN THEIR ABILITY TO REALLY CAUSE PAIN TO THE RUSSIANS.

>> IT'S NOTABLE THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN ALSO WEIGHS SPECIFIC DATES AND ANNIVERSARIES AND SYMBOLISM HEAVILY AS WELL.

SO THIS IS NO DOUBT A KNOCK TO HIM.

HE'S CALLED THIS ALREADY A LARGE-SCALE PROVOCATION AND TAKEN AN EXTRA STEP BY SUGGESTING THAT UKRAINE HAS BEEN TARGETING CIVILIANS AS WELL INDISCRIMINATELY.

WE DON'T HAVE ANY CONFIRMATION OF WHAT ACTUALLY IS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND.

BUT TAKE A LISTEN TO WHAT VLADIMIR PUTIN SAID.

>> Translator: AS YOU KNOW, THE KYIV REGIME HAS UNDERTAKEN ANOTHER LARGE SCALE PROVOCATION.

IT'S CONDUCTING INDISCRIMINATE SHELLING WITH VARIOUS TYPES OF WEAPONRY, INCLUDING MISSILES OF CIVILIAN BUILDINGS, RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS, AND AMBULANCES.

>> WHAT WE DO KNOW IS RUSSIA DOES HAVE A HISTORY OF INDISCRIMINATE SHELLS AND TARGETING OF CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE IN AREAS.

IN TERMS OF A RETALIATORY RESPONSE, ARE YOU CONCERNED OF WHAT THAT MAY LOOK LIKE AND FEARS OF THAT ESCALATING EVEN MORE?

>> WELL, I THINK THE UKRAINIANS ARE SOMEWHAT INURED TO THESE KINDS OF THREATS FROM THE KREMLIN BECAUSE EVERY DAY THEY ARE TAKING ATTACKS AGAINST CIVILIAN TARGETS THROUGHOUT UKRAINE, EVEN IN THE FAR WEST OF THE COUNTRY.

LONG-RANGE RUSSIAN MISSILES ARE STRIKING AT CIVILIAN TARGETS.

I WAS JUST READING THIS MORNING THAT IN RESPONSE APPARENTLY TO THESE STRIKES INSIDE RUSSIA, THERE WERE MANY, MANY DRONE ATTACKS IN THE OBLAST, WHICH IS THE UKRAINIAN TERRITORY ADJACENT TO THE KURSK REGION.

AND IN THOSE ATTACKS, AGAIN, IN A SCHOOLYARD, A YOUNG MAN AND HIS 6-YEAR-OLD BROTHER WERE KILLED.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S THE CASE THAT THE UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN SEEING THESE ATTACKS EVERY DAY OF THIS WAR.

SO THEY ARE SOMEWHAT INURED TO THEM.

BUT I DO SEE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE USING THESE ELITE TROOPS, AND THEY SEEM TO BE GOING AFTER MILITARY OBJECTIVES, FROM WHAT WE CAN TELL AGAIN FROM OVERHEAD THAT IT'S NOT AN ATTACK FOCUSED ON CIVILIAN TARGETS.

IT SEEMS VERY MUCH TO BE FOCUSED ON GOING AFTER MILITARY OBJECTIVES.

>> IT APPEARS THE WHITE HOUSE HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE TO THIS ATTACK.

AND HAS ASKED FOR MORE INFORMATION AND WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE DETAILS FROM KYIV SPECIFICALLY.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE ABOUT THAT FACT, THAT KYIV'S LARGEST BENEFACTOR APPARENTLY HAD NO IDEA AND NO WARNING AHEAD OF TIME BEFORE AN INCURSION LIKE THIS, SPECIFICALLY GIVEN THAT THE UNITED STATES HAD BEEN QUITE CAUTIOUS EARLY ON IN THIS WAR ABOUT EVEN THE USE OF U.S.-PROVIDED AND PERSON-PROVIDED MILITARY AID TARGETING RUSSIAN TARGETS.

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THE UKRAINIANS ARE RESPECTING THE CONSTRAINTS THAT WASHINGTON HAS PLACED ON THEM FOR USING LONG-RANGE NATO-SUPPLIED MISSILES AND OTHER EQUIPMENT ON RUSSIAN TARGETS.

I DO THINK THAT THEY ARE BEING QUITE CAUTIOUS IN THAT REGARD.

BUT THROUGHOUT -- YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THIS PERIOD WHEN WE HAVE SEEN SOME ATTACKS BY IRREGULAR FORCES, SBU, THAT IS THE UKRAINIAN SECURITY FORCES INSIDE RUSSIAN TERRITORY.

THE UKRAINIANS HAVE MAINTAINED A STRICT NEITHER CONFIRM NOR DENY APPROACH FROM KYIV, A SILENCE FROM KYIV.

SO IN SOME WAYS IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME.

I KNOW IT'S FRUSTRATED WASHINGTON OFFICIALS IN THE PAST THAT THEY GET TAKEN BY SURPRISE.

BUT KYIV I THINK IS BEING CONSISTENT WITH THE WAY THEY HAVE HANDLED THESE ATTACKS IN THE PAST.

I DON'T DOUBT HOWEVER, NOW THEY ARE TALKING TO WASHINGTON BECAUSE WASHINGTON HAS BEEN ASKING.

>> AND WE HEARD THAT STATEMENT THERE FROM VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, NOT CONFIRMING WHAT WE'VE BEEN REPORTING, BUT OBVIOUSLY TOUCHING ON IT AND THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE THERE FROM UKRAINE.

AFTER A LONG DELAY, WE STARTED TO SEE WESTERN ASSISTANCE, PARTICULARLY THE UNITED STATES MILITARY AID COMING THROUGH TO UKRAINE.

SPECIFICALLY NOW JUST IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, F-16s.

IS IT TOO SOON TO TELL WHAT DIFFERENCE, IF ANY THEY'RE MAKING?

>> WELL, I THINK FOR ONE THING, WE ARE HEARING FROM THE RUSSIANS THAT THEY ARE PLANNING TO SHOOT THEM DOWN AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

AND PUTIN'S BEEN BRAGGING THAT THEY WILL BE ON DISPLAY OF CAPTURED NATO MILITARY EQUIPMENT IN MOSCOW BEFORE TOO LONG.

SO I KNOW THAT THE UKRAINIANS AND THE NATO COUNTRIES WHO HAVE BEEN TRAINING THEM ON THE F-16s HAVE BEEN WORKING VERY HARD TO ENSURE THAT THEY UNDERSTAND THE DEFENSIVE CAPABILITIES OF THOSE AIRCRAFT, THAT THEY WILL AND ARE ABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

BUT I DO THINK, AND WE'VE SEEN SOME REPORTS TODAY OF F-16s BEGINNING TO FLY OVER KHERSON REGION.

I THINK THAT WE SOON BEGIN TO SEE WHAT EFFECT THESE IMPORTANT FIGHTER AIRCRAFT CAN HAVE ON THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND AND AT THE FRONT IN UKRAINE.

>> WHAT SPECIFICALLY WILL YOU WILL BLOOKING FOR IN TERMS OF THEIR EFFECTIVENESS IN THE WEEKS AND MONTHS TO COME.

OUT OF ALL MILITARY EQUIPMENT, THE F-16s EARLY ON HAD BEEN HIGHLIGHTED AS SOMETHING FROM VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY AND FROM OTHER UKRAINIAN MILITARY EXPERTS THERE THAT THEY REALLY NEEDED.

>> RIGHT.

WELL, THE UKRAINIANS HAVE DONE A LOT TO DENY THE RUSSIANS AIR SUPERIORITY OVER UKRAINE.

THE RUSSIANS DON'T DARE TO FIGHT THEIR OWN FIGHTER AIRCRAFT INTO UKRAINIAN AIRSPACE.

AND THE SAME WITH HELICOPTER FORCES.

BUT I THINK THAT THE F-16 FIGHTERS AND OTHER FIGHTER AIRCRAFT AVAILABLE TO THE UKRAINIANS ENSURE THAT UKRAINE ITSELF CAN START TO SUPPLY OR PROVIDE FOR MORE CONTROL OF THE AIRSPACE OVER UKRAINE.

AND THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR THEIR OWN TROOPS TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE ON THE GROUND AND TO EFFECTIVELY BEGIN TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THE RUSSIAN ADVANCE.

AND SO I DO THINK FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE THAT THEY WILL BE A VERY IMPORTANT ASSET FOR THE UKRAINIANS.

>> WE'LL CONTINUE TO WATCH CLOSELY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, ROSE GOTTEMOELLER FOR YOUR TIME.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

>>> WELL, NOW WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF SOMEONE PREDICTED A CIVIL WAR IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY?

WHAT IF SOMEONE WITH A SOCIAL MEDIA MEGAPHONE WITH AN AUDIENCE THAT'S NEARLY 370 MILLION STRONG SAID THAT?

THAT'S EXACTLY THE DILEMMA FACING BRITAIN'S NEW PRIME MINISTER KEIR STARMER.

THE UK HAS BEEN ROCKED BY FAR-RIGHT AND RACIST RIOTS IN THE PAST WEEK TARGETING MUSLIMS AND MINORITY COMMUNITIES, ALL TURBOCHARGED BY MISINFORMATION ABOUT THREE YOUNG GIRLS TRAGICALLY STABBED TO DEATH IN A DANCE CLASS LAST MONTH.

ELON MUSK ADDED FUEL TO THE FIRE, TALKING ABOUT A CIVIL WAR.

AND NOW THIS BEHAVIOR ISN'T NEW FROM MUSK.

HE HAS ALSO BEEN AT IT FROM THE U.S. WHERE HE SHARED A DEEPFAKE OF KAMALA HARRIS.

I SPOKE WITH EMILY GLAZER AND NICHOLAS THOMPSON OF THE ATLANTIC.

>> EMILY GLAZER, NICHOLAS THOMPSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THIS IS A STORY THAT UNFORTUNATELY DIDN'T GET ENOUGH ATTENTION I THINK HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, THESE RIOTS THAT UNFOLDED IN THE UK.

QUITE ALARMING AND A BIG TEST FOR A NEW PRIME MINISTER AND HIS NEW GOVERNMENT.

AND OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE THE ELEMENT OF SOCIAL MEDIA AS WELL.

AND NICHOLAS, LET ME START WITH YOU, BECAUSE HERE YOU HAVE ELON MUSK WEIGHING IN TO WHAT'S UNFOLDING ON THE STREETS IN THE UK AND SAYING "CIVIL WAR IS INEVITABLE."

THAT WAS MET WITH THE RESPONSE FROM THE UK PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE SAYING THERE WAS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THESE COMMENTS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT?

AND WHAT DOES IT ADD TO THE LEVEL OF CONFUSION I WOULD SAY AND AT TIMES IRRESPONSIBILITY AT THE HANDS OF SOMEONE AS POWERFUL AS ELON MUSK.

>> ELON MUSK HAS TWO RULES HERE.

HE IS A PARTICIPANT TWEETING HIS OWN THINGS, ADDING HIS VOICE INTO THESE CONVERSATIONS.

AND THEN AS OWNER OF A PLATFORM WHICH HE IS SHAPING TO MORE AND MORE ALIGN WITH HISS POLITICAL VIEWS.

WHAT'S HAPPENING IN SOCIAL MEDIA IS THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THIS REALLY INTERESTING TRADE-OFF BETWEEN PRIVACY, SAFETY AND FREE SPEECH.

AND EVERY PLATFORM KIND OF CHOOSES A POSITION.

AND MUSK IS REALLY TILTING AWAY FROM SAFETY.

REALLY TILTING IN ANOTHER DIRECTION AND FINDING A DIFFERENT SPOT.

AND AS A RESULT, THERE ARE BENEFITS THAT COME FROM THAT, BUT THERE ARE ALSO A LOT OF COSTS, AS WE SEE FROM TIME TO TIME LIKE THIS PAST WEEK.

>> EMILY, WHY DON'T YOU WEIGH IN.

WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS YOU THINK FROM THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR?

AND OBVIOUSLY, I THINK IT'S PRETTY FAIR TO SAY WE'VE SEEN WHAT THE COSTS CAN BE.

>> I DO THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE BELIEVE IN FREE EXPRESSION.

SO I GUESS IF WE'RE LOOKING FOR A BENEFIT, THAT COULD BE ONE.

BUT THE PLATFORM X, FORMERLY KNOWN AS TWITTER, HAS CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY.

I WAS THINKING BACK TO THE 20 T20 ELECTION WHEN TWITTER AND OTHERS WERE ROLLING OUT TO CURB THE SPREAD OF MISINFORMATION.

UP UNTIL THE ELECTION, TWITTER WAS PUTTING LABELS ON INFORMATION THAT WAS SPREADING, ANYTHING THAT COULD INCITE VIOLENCE, INCITE HATEFUL SPEECH.

AND THEY HAD FOUND THAT.

IT WAS A COMPANY UNDER A DIFFERENT OWNERSHIP.

I THINK THEY LABELED ROUGHLY 300,000 POSTS.

IT SIGNIFICANTLY DI CREASED THE SPREAD OF THAT TYPE OF INFORMATION.

THAT'S OBVIOUSLY CHANGED AS ELON MUSK HAS BROUGHT THIS COMPANY PRIVATE.

HE IS RUNNING IT.

HE IS SHAPING THE ACTIVITIES.

BRITAIN DOES HAVE A CERTAIN REGULATION THAT I BELIEVE IS GOING INTO EFFECT LATER THIS YEAR THAT IS MEANT TO CURB THE SPREAD OF INFORMATION THAT INCITES VIOLENCE ONLINE.

SO IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THAT COULD CHANGE WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.

BUT WE'RE CERTAINLY SEEING A VERY DIFFERENT PLATFORM THAN WE DID A YEAR OR TWO OR THREE YEARS AGO.

>> NICK, THAT REGULATION THAT WAS JUST MENTIONED THERE BY EMILY IS BRITAIN'S ONLINE SAFETY ACT.

IT WAS YEARS IN THE MAKING.

AND HERE'S WHAT IT SAYS.

"PLATFORMS WILL HAVE THE DUTY TO TAKE ROBUST ACTIONS AGAINST ILLEGAL CONTENT THAT INCLUDES CONTENT THAT INCITES VIOLENCE OR WHICH IS RELATED TO RACIALLY OR RELIGIOUSLY AGGRAVATED PUBLIC ORDER OFFENSES.

FAILING TO MEET THESE OBLIGATIONS COULD SEE SOCIAL MEDIA FIRMS FACE FINES OF UP TO 18 MILLION POUNDS, OR 10% OF THEIR WORLDWIDE REVENUE BY MEDIA REGULATORS.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT ELON MUSK TAKES SERIOUSLY?

>> WELL, I THINK HE WILL HAVE TO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

I MEAN ALL OF THESE PLATFORMS, ULTIMATELY THEY ESPOUSE THESE VERY STRONG PRINCIPLES, AND THEN THEY HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW.

THEY HAVE TO COMPLY WITH IT IN EUROPE, WHICH OBVIOUSLY HAS EXTREMELY ROBUST REGULATIONS.

NOW THEY'LL HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THE NEW UK REGULATIONS.

THE HE WILL PUSH BACK.

HE WILL FIGHT.

HE WILL SAY THIS IS CENSORSHIP.

BUT ULTIMATELY, THERE WILL BE BE A BALANCE AND EVERYBODY HAS TO COMPLY.

IT'S NOT JUST TWITTER AND X THEY'RE AMPLIFYING WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING AND CAUSING RIOTS.

A LOT OF IT SEEMS IS GOING THROUGH TELEGRAM, WHICH LIKE X, CHOOSES A SPOT WHERE IT REALLY PRIORITIZES END-TO-END ENCRYPTION AND HAS VERY LITTLE WORK ON TRUST AND SAFETY.

CERTAINLY COMPARED TO WHAT WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING, THE WAY IT WAS DONE FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AGO WHEN ALL OF THE PLATFORMS HAD ROBUST TRUST AND SAFETY TEAMS.

>> AND REMIND US AGAIN, NICK, WHO THE OWNER OF TELEGRAM IS?

>> THE OWNER OF TELEGRAM WAS BORN IN RUSSIA.

BUT IT DOESN'T SO MUCH MATTER WHO THE OWNER IS.

IT DOES MATTER WHO THE OWNER IS.

IT REALLY MATTERS THE CULTURE THAT DEVELOPS.

AND TELEGRAM HAS DEVELOPED VERY MUCH A FREE SPEECH MINIMAL CENSORSHIP MINIMUM WORK ON TRUST AND SAFETY ETHOS.

SO DIRECT COMMUNICATIONS TOTALLY ENCRYPTED.

WHEN YOU HAVE TOTAL ENCRYPTION, THAT'S GOOD.

IT HELPS DISSIDENTS.

THERE IS A LOT OF PRIVACY BENEFITS.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU CAN'T HUNT OUT VIOLENCE OR HELPING TERRORISTS.

>> I WOULD JUST ADD IT MATTERS ALSO IF IT'S A PUBLIC OR PRIVATE COMPANY.

A LOT OF THIS INFORMATION AS NICK MENTIONED, IT'S SHIFTING TO SMALLER PLATFORMS THAT ARE ALSO NOT PUBLIC COMPANIES.

SO THEY DON'T HAVE BIG INSTITUTIONAL INVESTORS PRESSURING THEM TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE COMPLYING WITH REGULATIONS.

A LOT OF THEM, IF THEY DO BREAK ANYTHING, THEY'LL PAY THE FINE, THEY'LL MOVE ON.

I WOULD SAY FROM REPORTING ON ELON MUSK FOR MANY YEARS, HE'LL PAY THE FINE.

IT'S PENNIES TO THEM IF THEY DO GET FINED AND MOVE ON.

IT DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME TIME OF IMPACT.

>> LET'S SHIFT TO THE U.S. ELECTION HERE, NICK.

BECAUSE ELON MUSK HAS PUT HIS THUMB ON THE SCALE FOR DONALD TRUMP.

THAT HAPPENED RIGHT AFTER THAT ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT A FEW WEEKS AGO.

NOW WE KNOW DONALD TRUMP SAID ON TRUTH SOCIAL THAT HE IS GOING TO BE DOING AN INTERVIEW WITH ELON ON MONDAY.

AND THESE TWO GO BACK.

THEY HAVE A RATHER I DON'T KNOW, CONTENTIOUS AT TIMES, AND AT TIMES THEY SEEM TO BE GETTING ALONG IN TERMS OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP.

REMEMBER, BEFORE ELON MUSK BOUGHT THE PLATFORM, DONALD TRUMP WAS KICKED OFF, HE HASN'T BEEN BACK ON TWITTER, THOUGH.

I THINK HE HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO IF HE WOULD LIKE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS RELATIONSHIP AS IT IS RIGHT NOW AND THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE THE OWNER OF ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST INFLUENTIAL ONLINE SITES REALLY BEING QUITE HONEST IN PUBLIC ABOUT WHO HE IS SUPPORTING IN THIS RACE?

DOES THAT MATTER?

>> YEAH.

I THINK IT DEFINITELY MATTERS.

I THINK THAT IT WILL CHANGE THE REPUTATION OF TWITTER.

IF I OWNED A MASSIVE ONLINE PLATFORM, I WOULD STAY OUT OF POLITICS.

YOU WANT YOUR PLATFORM TO BE A PUBLIC TOWN SQUARE, IT IS PROBABLY BETTER IF PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY CAN EXPRESS ANY OPINION, AND THE OWNER DOESN'T SHARE ONE VERY SPECIFIC VIEW.

BUT THAT IS A DIFFERENT FROM WHAT MUSK HAS.

THE ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MUSK AND TRUMP VERY CONFUSING.

THEY BOTH HAVE EXTREMELY IDIOSYNCRATIC HARD TO PLACE POLITICS.

MUSK IS NOW VIEWED AS THIS EDGE LORD FIGURE OF THE RIGHT.

BUT THIS IS A MAN WHO HAS DONE MORE TO COMBAT CLIMATE CHANGE THAN ANY OTHER INVENTOR IN AMERICA.

HE CLEARLY SAID, I BELIEVE IT WAS IN THE x FRIEDMAN PODCAST, HE TALKED ABOUT TRUMP'S MASCU MASCULINITY, VIGOR, STANDING UP FOR AMERICA.

BUT I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF MUSK'S POLITICS FLIP BACK.

AND I ALSO THINK SOME OF MUSK'S REGARD FOR TRUMP WAS DUE TO HIS TENSION WITH BIDEN OVER BIDEN'S COMMENTS ABOUT ELECTRIC CARS AND EXCLUDING TESLA.

SO IT'S VERY, VERY COMPLICATED.

BUT I THINK THE BOTTOM LINE IS X WOULD FEEL MORE LIKE THE THING MUSK SAYS HE WANTS IT TO FEEL LIKE, WHICH IS AN OPEN TOWN SQUARE IF MUSK WOULD STAY QUIET ON BIG POLITICAL ISSUES.

>> YEAH, MUSK HAS REALLY PROVEN HIMSELF TO BE QUITE MERCURIAL, TO SAY THE LEAST.

LET ME SWITCH FINALLY, EMILY, TO AI AND WHAT APPEARS TO BE A NASTIER BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN ELON MUSK AND SAM ALTMAN, CO-FOUNDER OF OPENAI.

THESE TWO USED TO WORK TOGETHER.

NOW ELON MUSK HAS FILED ANOTHER LAWSUIT AGAINST HIM, BASICALLY CLAIMING OPENAI WAS ALWAYS MEANT TO BE A NONPROFIT BUT THEN PULLED A 180 AND WENT INTO BUSINESS WITH MICROSOFT.

WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN, IF ANYTHING?

>> YES, LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK.

ELON MUSK RUNS OR IS VERY HIGHLY INVOLVED IN SIX COMPANIES.

ONE OF THE NEWEST ONES IS XAI, HIS OWN AI COMPANY.

SO PART OF THIS COMPETITION.

OPENAI HAS EXPLODED WHEN CHATGPT LAUNCHED IN NOVEMBER OF 2022.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE COULD NOT ANTICIPATE HOW MUCH IT'S BECOME PERVASIVE WITH A NUMBER OF PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

AND ELON MUSK IS A COMPETITOR.

THERE ARE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER THESE LAWSUITS ARE REALLY ABOUT WHO GETS THE BUSINESS IN AI.

AND I THINK YOU CAN TURN TOWARD HIS SUPPORT OF DONALD TRUMP AND WONDER ALONGSIDE WITH TRUMP'S VP PICK J.D.

VANCE WHO HAVE SAID THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE MUCH SOFTER ON AI REGULATION.

AND SO I THINK A LOT OF MUSK'S TILT TOWARDS POLITICS, YOU HAVE TO THINK THERE IS AN UNDERLYING BUSINESS DECISION.

SO AS HE HAS THESE LAWSUITS, NOW THE SECOND ONE WITH SAM ALTMAN AND OPENAI, THERE IS THIS BROADER PICTURE OF WHAT IS AI REGULATION LOOK LIKE, WHO ARE THE WINNERS AND LOSERS IN AI.

AND I DON'T THINK ELON MUSK WANTS TO LOSE OUT WITH X-AI, HIS OWN COMPANY.

>> NICK, QUICKLY, DO YOU SUPPORT THAT VIEW?

THERE HAD BEEN SOME PEOPLE SCRATCHING THEIR HEADS AS TO WHY OULDS THERE HAD BEEN THIS LIBERTARIAN ISH FROM THE SILICON VALLEY BROS AS THEY'RE CALLED.

DO YOU THINK IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE SUPPORTING LOOSER REGULATIONS?

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE SUPPORTING LOOSER REGULATIONS.

I THINK THAT'S PART OF IT.

I THINK LOOSER REGULATIONS FOR CRYPTO ARE VERY IMPORTANT.

MANY OF THEM HAVE LARGE PORTFOLIOS.

I THINK IT IS A POLITICAL SHIFT AND IN SOME WAYS IS A BACKLASH TO WHAT THEY VIEW AS THE OVERWHELMING AND, YOU KNOW, OVERWHELMING POLITICS AND THE PLACES WHERE MANY OF THEM LIVE IN SAN FRANCISCO, LOS ANGELES.

A LOT OF ELON MUSK'S TURN AGAINST THE LEFT AND TURN TOWARDS THE RIGHT IS A BACKLASH IS WHAT HE PUBLICLY PERCEIVES AS THE WOKE POLITICS OF THE CITY HE LIVED IN.

SO I DO THINK THAT SOME OF IT IS TACTICAL.

I DO THINK SOME OF IT IS FINANCIALLY MOTIVATED AND I DO THINK SOME OF IT IS JUST GENUINE POLITICS AND ALIGNMENT.

STILL, THOUGH, I THINK THE MAJORITY OF SILICON VALLEY PROBABLY SUPPORTS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

BUT THERE IS A VERY INTERESTING SPLIT, AS YOU POINTED OUT.

>> YOU CAN SAY THIS FOR ELON MUSK, HE PUTS HIS MONEY WHERE HIS MOUTH IS.

BOTH SPACEX AND NOW X ITSELF HAVE RELOCATED AS HE THREATENED TO DO.

>> YEP.

>> IT'S NOT ALL DOOM AND GLOOM, ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF CONCERNS, NICK, THAT WE HAVE HAD FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS ABOUT THE STATE OF DEMOCRACY AROUND THE WORLD AND PARTICULAR HERE IN THE U.S., AS WE APPROACH ANOTHER PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

VERY CONTENTIOUS ONE, AND THE ROLE OF SOCIAL MEDIA MAY OR MAY NOT PLAY.

TALK ABOUT WHY YOU'RE NOT AS PESSIMISTIC AS OTHERS.

>> WELL, I HAVE BEEN TERRIFIED FOR DEMOCRACY AND THE RISE OF AUTOCRACY FOR A LONG TIME.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE LAST NINE, TEN MONTHS OF ELECTIONS, THE WORLD HAS BEEN DOING PRETTY WELL.

WE HAD GOOD ELECTIONS IN SOUTH AFRICA, POLAND.

MEXICO WAS ABLE TO ELECT A FEMALE JEWISH LEADER.

SAME PARTY.

FRANCE, BRITAIN, CONTENTIOUS COMPLICATED ELECTIONS.

INDIA, AN EXTRAORDINARY ELECTION.

AND WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS DEMOCRACY IS HOLDING, AND DEMOCRACY IN FACT IS HOLDING EVEN WHEN VERY POWERFUL LEADERS, ILLIBERAL LEADERS LIKE MODI IN INDIA, OBVIOUSLY MASSIVE SUPPORT, BUT NOT A TRUE DEMOCRAT IN THE LIBERAL SENSE, WHEN THEY LOSE, OR WHEN THEY HAVE TO SEEK POWER, THE TRANSITION HAS ACTUALLY BEEN WORKING.

THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT FROM DEMOCRACY.

YOU WANT INCUMBENTS THAT LOSE FAIR ELECTIONS, THEY HAND IT OFF.

OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE EXAMPLES AS WE'RE SEEING IN VENEZUELA.

BUT IN GENERAL, THE WORLD HAS BEEN ABLE TO HANDLE DEMOCRACIES DURING A TIME WHERE SOCIAL MEDIA IS MAKING EVERYBODY ANGRY, DURING A TIME WHERE AI IS MAKING IT QUITE POSSIBLE TO MAKE DEEPFAKES, DURING A TIME WHEN A LOT OF CIVIC LIFE AND THE CIVIC TIES THAT WORK US TOGETHER THAT MAKE DEMOCRACY WORK ARE SHATTERING.

AND I'M PRETTY OPTIMISTIC AND PLEASED BY WHAT WE'VE SEEN SO FAR.

NOW CAN THIS HOLD THROUGH THE AMERICAN ELECTION?

WE WILL SEE, BUT FOR NOW I THINK THE WORLD'S DEMOCRACY HAVE KIND OF DONE ALL RIGHT THE LAST YEAR.

>> EMILY, DO YOU SHARE THAT OPTIMISM?

YOU HAVE A CANDIDATE, WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th IN 2021, AND HE HAS YET TO DEFINITIVELY SAY THAT HE WILL ACCEPT THE RESULTS OF THIS ELECTION.

>> WHILE I REALLY WANT TO SHARE NICK'S OPTIMISM, I THINK MAYBE FROM BEING A REPORTER ON THE GROUND WRITING ABOUT SOME OF THIS STUFF DAY TO DAY, I WORRY A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT COULD HAPPEN IN THE UNITED STATES.

I HAVE TALKED TO CEOs WHO SAID, YOU KNOW, THEIR COMPANIES ARE BASED IN D.C., AND THEY'RE KEEPING THEIR OFFICES CLOSED ON ELECTION DAY AND ON INAUGURATION DAY.

I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF PTSD FROM THE CAPITOL RIOTS, AND PEOPLE ARE JUST CONCERNED ABOUT WHETHER LIKE YOU SAID THE RESULTS WILL ACTUALLY BE ACCEPTED IN THE U.S.

SO THAT'S A BIT MORE OF A DOMESTIC POINT OF VIEW.

AND I APOLOGIZE FOR BEING PESSIMISTIC.

BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

BUT IT MIGHT NOT BE PRETTY.

>> I THINK THAT PROTECTING AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AND DOING EVERYTHING THAT EVERYBODY CAN DO TO MAKE SURE THAT THE ELECTION RESULTS HOLD IS THE MOST IMPORTANT CHALLENGE OF RIGHT NOW.

I'M VERY WORRIED ABOUT IT.

MY POINT IS ONLY SO FAR DEMOCRACY IS HOLDING.

BUT YES, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH EMILY.

THIS IS VERY WORRISOME, ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL.

>> EMILY, NICK, GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> IT WAS WONDERFUL TO SEE YOU, BIANNA.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> FOR MANY PARENTS, IT'S THEIR DREAM TO GIVE THEIR CHILDREN A BETTER LIFE THAN THEY WERE GIVEN.

NOW HISTORICALLY IN AMERICA, RACE HAS PLAYED A HUGE PART IN THIS.

RAJ CHETTY OF HARVARD IS FINDING THAT THE RACIAL GAP IS CLOSING.

HERE HE TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN HOW THIS WAS ACHIEVED AND WHAT DETERMINES OUR CHILDREN'S FUTURES TODAY.

>> BIANNA, THANKS.

RAJ CHETTY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU RUN OPPORTUNITY IN SIGHTS AT HARVARD WHICH TAKES A LOOK AT A LOT OF STUFF.

REALLY THE MOST FASCINATING STUFF IS THE RESEARCH YOU'VE DONE ON SOCIAL MOBILITY OVER THE DECADES AND WHERE IS THE DATA ON HOW PEOPLE GET A LEG UP IN AMERICA.

YOU HAD A RECENT REPORT OUT LOOKING AT KIDS, AND WHAT THE BEST PREDICTORS OF SOCIAL MOBILITY AND OUTCOMES WERE.

WALK US A LITTLE BIT THROUGH YOUR FINDINGS.

>> YEAH, HAHARI, GREAT TO BE WI YOU AGAIN.

BASICALLY, WHO GETS TO ACHIEVE THE AMERICAN DREAM OF RISING UP.

I THINK ONE OF THE CORNERSTONE IDEALS OF THIS COUNTRY, NO MATTER WHERE YOU COME FROM, NO MATTER THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN, NO MATTER YOUR BACKGROUND.

AND WE'VE BEEN STUDYING THOSE ISSUES USING BIG DATA, DATA DRAWN FROM ANONYMIZED TAX RETURNS COVERING ALL AMERICANS, MILLIONS OF KIDS AND THEIR PARENTS FOR OVER A DECADE NOW.

AND A DECADE AGO WE PUT OUT A STUDY CALLED THE LAND OF OPPORTUNITY, BASICALLY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THE AMERICAN DREAM WAS ALIVE AND WHO HAD THE BEST CHANCES OF RISING UP.

AND IN THIS MOST RECENT STUDY THAT WE PUT OUT A WEEK AGO, WE'VE NOW UPDATED THAT DATA TO LOOK AT HOW ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY, UPWARD MOBILITY IS CHANGING BY RACE AND CLASS IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND THE HEADLINE FINDINGS ARE THAT THE LANDSCAPE OF OPPORTUNITY IS CHANGING QUITE A BIT IN AMERICA, IN PARTICULAR, RACIAL GAPS IN ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITE AMERICANS ARE NARROWING SOMEWHAT.

SO IT USED TO BE THE CASE, AND IT STILL REMAINS THE CASE TO A LARGER EXTENT THAT WHITE KIDS GROWING UP IN LOW-INCOME FAMILIES HAVE MUCH BETTER CHANCES OF RISING UP AND ACHIEVING THE AMERICAN DREAM THAN BLACK KIDS.

BUT THAT ADVANTAGE, WHICH WAS EXTREMELY LARGE IF YOU LOOK AT KIDS BORN BACK, SAY, IN THE LATE 1970s AROUND WHEN I WAS BORN, THAT ADVANTAGE HAS SHRUNK BY ABOUT A THIRD, HARI, IN THE PAST 15 YEARS.

AND A 1/3 CHANGE, THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE HAVE PERFECT EQUITY BY RACE BY ANY MEANS, BUT THAT'S QUITE A SUBSTANTIAL CHANGE OVER A 15-YEAR PERIOD.

SO THAT'S ONE KEY ASPECT OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED.

SHRINKING RACE GAPS.

ON THE OTHER SIDE, WE FIND THAT CLASS GAPS ARE GROWING.

AND BY THAT I MEAN PARENT INCOME IS A MORE AN MORE DETERMINANT OF HOW WELL YOU'LL DO IN AMERICA.

THE DIVIDE BETWEEN KIDS GROWING UP IN RICH FAMILIES AND POOR FAMILIES, ESPECIALLY AMONG WHITE CHILDREN IS GROWING BY ABOUT A THIRD OVER THE PAST 15 YEARS.

AND SO THE HEADLINE FINDINGS FROM THESE NEW DATA COVERING 57 MILLION KIDS ARE A STORY OF SHRINKING RACE GAPS AND GROWING CLASS GAPS IN ECONOMIC MOBILITY.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE LARGEST SET OF FACTORS IN SHRINKING THE RACE GAP?

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WANT TO ASCRIBE THEIR OWN POLITICAL INTERESTS ON TO OH, IT'S BECAUSE OF THIS POLICY OR THAT POLICY.

BUT WHAT HAS BEEN WORKING?

>> I THINK THAT'S A COMPLICATED QUESTION.

WE INVESTIGATED MANY DIFFERENT FACTORS THAT MIGHT BE CAUSING THIS.

LET ME FIRST SAY AS A STARTING POINT, WHAT IS DRIVING THAT SHRINKING OF THE RACE GAP.

HALF IS DRIVEN BY BLACK KIDS GROWING UP IN LOW-INCOME FAMILIES DOING BETTER THAN THEY WERE BEFORE.

THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO RISE OUT OF POVERTY, LESS LIKELY TO BE UNEMPLOYED, LESS LIKELY TO BE INCARCERATED.

POSITIVE PROGRESS FOR BLACK KIDS GROWING UP IN LOW-INCOME FAMILIES, WHICH I THINK WE SHOULD CELEBRATE.

ON THE OTHER SIDE, WE HAVE WHITE KIDS GROWING UP IN LOW-INCOME FAMILIES UNFORTUNATELY DOING A BIT WORST THAN THEY HAVE IN THE PAST, LESS LIKELY TO BE WORKING, LESS LIKELY TO BE IN THE MIDDLE CLASS AND SO ON.

SO THE SHRINKING OF THE GAP IS FROM BLACK KIDS DOING BETTER AND LOW INCOME WHITE KIDS NOT DOING AS WELL.

NOW WHAT IS DRIVING THOSE TRENDS?

IT TURNS OUT THAT A LOT OF THE EXPLANATION ORIGINATES IN THE COMMUNITIES IN WHICH THESE KIDS ARE GROWING UP.

BLACK KIDS ARE INCREASINGLY GROWING UP IN THRIVING COMMUNITIES WHERE YOU HAVE MORE PARENTS WHO ARE WORKING, HIGHER LEVELS OF STABILITY, MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO RISE UP, MORE EXPOSURE TO PEOPLE WHO CAN CONNECT YOU TO AN INTERNSHIP OR A PATHWAY TO SUCCESS.

WHITE KIDS, PARTICULARLY WHITE KIDS WITH LESS EDUCATED PARENTS UNFORTUNATELY ARE GROWING UP IN COMMUNITIES THAT ARE NOT THRIVING AS MUCH.

AND THAT'S DRIVING THE DECLINE IN ECONOMIC MOBILITY FOR WHITE CHILDREN.

>> SO EVEN WHEN YOU LOOK EITHER AT RACE OR AT CLASS, IS THIS A ZERO SUM?

THIS DOESN'T SEEM LIKE IT'S ONE COMMUNITY GETTING BETTER WHEN THE OTHER GETS WORSE OR VICE VERSA.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

AND I THINK THAT'S AN EXTREMELY IMPORTANT POINT.

WE FIND THAT IN THE PLACES WHERE BLACK KIDS ARE DOING BEST, AND YOU CAN LOOK AT THIS DATA -- IN FACT, THE AUDIENCE CAN LOOK IT UP IN THEIR OWN COMMUNITY IF YOU GO TO THE WEBSITE CALLED THE OPPORTUNITY ATLAS, YOU CAN LOOK UPDATE THAT FOR YOUR OWN COUNTY.

WHAT YOU'LL SEE IS THERE ARE SOME PARTS OF AMERICA LIKE PARTS OF THE SOUTHEAST, A CITY LIKE CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE BLACK KIDS ARE DOING MUCH BETTER THAN THEY WERE BEFORE.

BUT THOSE SAME PLACES WHERE WE SEE BLACK KIDS DOING BETTER, WE ALSO SEE WHITE KIDS DOING RELATIVELY BETTER.

SO IT'S ABSOLUTELY NOT A ZERO SUM GAME.

IT'S NOT THAT ONE GROUP IS BENEFITTING AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER.

BOTH GROUPS ARE DOING IN SOME PLACES, AND WORSE IN OTHER PLACES.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHAT THIS SHOWS US IS THE ECONOMIC MOBILITY IS REALLY SOMETHING WE CAN ALL BENEFIT FROM AND MAKE PROGRESS TOGETHER.

>> YOU MENTIONED CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA.

THAT WAS THE PLACE TEN YEARS AGO WHEN YOUR REPORT DID NOT FARE TOO WELL.

HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO LOOK AT THAT DATA OVER THIS TIME?

ARE THEY IMPROVING?

HOW SO, AND WHO ARE THEY COMPARED TO?

>> YES, SO CHARLOTTE IS A VERY INTERESTING CASE.

WHEN WE PUT OUT THE DATA I MENTIONED EARLIER, 2014, WE RANKED THE LARGEST CITIES IN AMERICA.

CHARLOTTE RANKED 50th OUT OF THE 50 LARGEST CITIES.

IT WAS THE LOWEST IN TERMS OF CHANCES OF RISING UP IF YOU WERE A POOR KID GROWING UP THERE.

NOW THAT SHOCKED AND SURPRISED IN PEOPLE IN CHARLOTTE BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE VIEW CHARLOTTE AS A VIBRANT CITY, WHICH IT ABSOLUTELY IS.

IF YOU DRIVE AROUND CHARLOTTE TODAY, RELATIVE TO 20 OR 30 YEARS AGO, YOU'D SEE THAT THERE ARE MANY MORE TALL TOWERS AND PROSPERING BUSINESSES, AND PEOPLE ARE DOING WELL.

BUT IT TURNS OUT WHEN YOU TAKE A DEEPER LOOK AT THE DATA AND YOU FOLLOW KIDS OVER TIME USING TAX RECORDS GROWING UP IN CHARLOTTE, PARTICULARLY KIDS BORN IN THE LATE 1970s, EARLY 1980s, IF YOU WERE GROWING UP IN A LOW-INCOME FAMILY, YOU WERE NOT BENEFITTING FROM THAT PROSPERITY.

YOU WERE NOT GETTING JOBS AT FIRMS LIKE BANK OF AMERICA, A HIGH-PAYING FINANCIAL COMPANY HEADQUARTERED IN CHARLOTTE.

NOW WHEN WE PUT OUT THAT STUDY, FOLKS IN CHARLOTTE RESPONDED IN A REALLY CONSTRUCTIVE WAY.

THEY SAID THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WE WANT, THE LABEL 50 OUT OF 50.

WE BELIEVE IN PROSPERITY FOR EVERYONE.

WHAT CAN WE DO TO TRY TO MAKE A CHANGE?

THERE WERE MANY INITIATIVES LAUNCHED, A TASK FORCE, MORE THAN $200 MILLION SPENT BY NONPROFITS TO TRY TO IMPLEMENT MENTORING PROGRAMS, OTHER KINDS OF INVESTMENTS IN THE CITY EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION TO TRY TO GIVE KIDS BETTER ACCESS TO JOBS AT FIRMS LIKE BANK OF AMERICA.

AND WHAT WE SEE NOW WHEN WE LOOK AT THE NEW DATA, WE CAN'T ASCRIBE IT DIRECTLY TO THOSE EFFORTS, BUT NOR GENERALLY, IT'S ACTUALLY A VERY POSITIVE STORY FOR CHARLOTTE NOW RANKS AMONG THE MOST IMPROVE STIDS IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC MOBILITY IN THE PAST 15 YEARS, AT THE TOP OF THE LIST.

IT'S NOT OVERALL THE BEST PLACE IN TERMS OF RISING UP, BUT IT'S NO LONGER 50th OUT OF 50.

IT'S SOMETHING LIKE 38th OUT OF 50.

IT'S ON A VERY POSITIVE TRAJECTORY.

LET MECON TRAST THAT, HARI WITH ATLANTA WHICH RANKED 49th OUT OF 50 ON OUR LIST AND NOW RANKS 50 OUT OF 50.

IN ATLANTA, THERE HAS BEEN NO PROGRESS IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC MOBILITY.

SO THAT SHOWS THERE IS NO GUARANTEE HERE THAT THINGS ARE GOING TO GET BETTER.

WE HAVE TO TAKE A DELIBERATE APPROACH TO IMPROVING THINGS.

BUT IT ALSO SHOWS I THINK ENCOURAGING THAT CHANGE IS POSSIBLE, AND WE CAN MAKE THE AMERICAN DREAM A REALITY FOR EVERYONE.

>> LOOK, SOMEONE MIGHT LOOK AT THE KIND OF HEADLINES FROM YOUR STUDY AND SAY WELL, THIS IS JUST ABOUT MONEY.

IS CLASS A DIFFERENT WAY TO SAY A WEALTHY OR AFFLUENT COMMUNITY?

ARE THERE PLACES WHERE YOU CAN POINT TO A CITY THAT MIGHT NOT BE THE RICHEST OR THE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT MIGHT NOT BE THE RICHEST, BUT WHERE KIDS ARE STILL GETTING THESE BETTER OUTCOMES BECAUSE OF THE COMMUNITY OF SUPPORT THAT THEY HAVE AND THE ACCESS TO INTERNSHIPS OR WHOSE PARENTS ARE WORKING.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT, HARI.

NO DOUBT MONEY MATTERS.

KIDS WHO GROW UP IN HIGHER INCOME FAMILIES DO BETTER ON MANY DIMENSION, NOT JUST IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH MONEY THEY MAKE THEMSELVES, BUT THEIR HEALTH, THE EDUCATION THEY GET, NUMEROUS DIFFERENT LIE OUTCOMES THAT WE MIGHT ALL CARE ABOUT.

BUT AS YOU'RE STRESSING, AND I THINK THIS IS A KEY MESSAGE FROM THE DATA, WHAT MATTERS REALLY ABOVE AND BEYOND THAT IS THE STRENGTH OF THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH YOU'RE GROWING UP.

EVEN HOLDING FIXED INCOME.

TAKE DUBUQUE IOWA, OR MUCH OF RURAL IOWA.

YOU WOULDN'T THINK OF RURAL IOWA AS A POWERHOUSE IN TERMS OF HIGH-PAYING JOBS AND SO ON.

IT TURNS OUT IF YOU WANT TO PICK A PLACE TO RISE UP AND ACHIEVE THE AMERICAN DREAM, THAT'S THE SORT OF PLACE WHERE YOUR ODDS ARE THE BEST.

YOU HAVE THE BEST CHANCES OF RISING UP IN MANY PLACES IN THE RURAL MIDWEST, NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO GET THAT HIGH-PAYING JOB OR FIND SUCCESS IN THAT COMMUNITY ITSELF, BUT WE SEE THAT THOSE COMMUNITIES OFTEN HAVE A LOT OF CONNECTIONS BETWEEN LOW AND HIGH INCOME PEOPLE, PEOPLE WHO HELP YOU OUT, SHOW YOU A PATH HAVE, GREAT EDUCATIONAL SYSTEMS AND SO ON, THEY LAUNCH KIDS ON CAREERS THAT THEN LEAD THEM TO HIGH-PAYING POSITIONS IN A PLACE LIKE CHICAGO OR NEW YORK, FIND SUCCESS IN VARIOUS DOME NANES AND SO ON.

SO THAT COMMUNITY UNIT IS REALLY CRUCIAL WE THINK FOR RESTORING THE AMERICAN DREAM.

>> SINCE YOU HAVE THIS LARGE SNAPSHOT, AND YOU CAN EVEN ZOOM DOWN ALMOST INTO THE ZIP CODE LEVEL HERE, I WONDER WHAT IS IT THAT IS DRIVING THE LESS POSITIVE OR MORE NEGATIVE OUTCOMES FOR WHITE CHILDREN.

BY YOUR DATA, IT WOULD SHOW THAT SOMETHING IS HAPPENING TO THOSE COMMUNITIES, THAT THERE IS LESS ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY FOR THE PARENTS OF YOUR FRIENDS TO HAVE JOBS, IF I'M READING THAT RIGHT.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

AND IF WE JUST THINK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE U.S. AND A LOT OF WHAT WE HEAR IN THE PUBLIC DISCOURSE, THERE HAVE BEEN MANY CHANGES IN TERMS OF GLOBAL COMPETITION, OUTSOURCING TECHNOLOGICAL CHANGE, WHERE LOTS OF FOLKS HAVE LOST JOBS.

THE LOCAL STEEL PLANT, THE AUTO INDUSTRY DECLINES IN CERTAIN PLACES.

AND MANY WORKERS, AND IT'S OFTEN BEEN WHITE WORKERS WHO HAD THOSE HIGH-PAYING JOBS, THEY ENDED UP LOSING EMPLOYMENT.

AND WE'VE SEEN IN EARLIER WORK THAT THEY HAVEN'T NECESSARILY COME BACK THE WORK AND HAVEN'T FOUND JOBS.

NOW WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THESE NEW DATA IS THAT HAS AN IMPACT NOT JUST ON THAT GENERATION OF WORKERS WHO WERE DISPLACED, BUT ON THE NEXT GENERATION OF KIDS, IN PARTICULAR WHITE KIDS WHO ARE GROWING UP IN THESE COMMUNITIES WHERE NOW YOU KNEW MANY PEOPLE WHO WORKED AT THE LOCAL STEEL PLANT OR AUTO PLANT AND KIND OF HAD THAT HALFWAY PLANNED OUT AND HAD A SENSE OF HOW YOU MIGHT FOLLOW THAT TRACK, THAT OPTION IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE.

YOU MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT PEOPLE WILL NATURALLY GO IN SOME DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

BUT THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE SEEING A DECLINE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES WHERE THERE ARE HEALTH ISSUES THAT EMERGE, PEOPLE GET MORE DISCONNECTED, NOT GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL, A BROADER DECLINE THAT IS LEADING TO THIS DECLINE IN ECONOMIC MOBILITY UNFORTUNATELY FOR MANY WHITE AMERICANS.

>> WE'RE ALL GOING TO SEE FOR THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS HARRIS AND WALZ AND TRUMP AND VANCE GO OUT ON STUMP SPEECHES AFTER STUMP SPEECHES AND TRYING TO REACH THESE PEOPLE WHO FEEL LIKE THAT THE ECONOMY HAS LEFT THEM BEHIND, RIGHT.

AND I WONDER IF YOU WERE TO BE ABLE TO ADVISE BOTH OF THESE CAMPAIGNS ECONOMIC POLICY ADVISERS, WHAT WOULD THE SUGGESTIONS BE?

HOW DO WE CRAFT POLICIES THAT TARGET NOT JUST INDIVIDUALS, BUT ENTIRE COMMUNITIES?

>> YEAH, IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

MY VIEW IS THESE ARE ISSUES OF DECLINING ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY ARE ABSOLUTELY CENTRAL TO WHAT WE'RE HEARING IN THE PUBLIC DEBATE AND THE CAMPAIGNS AND SO ON.

AND THE QUESTION, OF COURSE, IS WHAT WE TCAN DO TO ADDRESS THES ISSUES GOING FORWARD BOTH FOR THE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE DECLINING AND TO INCREASE FOR BLACK AMERICANS WHO ARE MAKING SOME PROGRESS, BUT STILL HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO IN TERMS OF THEIR CHANCES OF RISING UP.

MY SENSE IS WHILE THERE IS NO SILVER BULLET, I THINK THERE HAS BEEN AN EXCESS FOCUS AND ECONOMIC POLICY ON THINGS LIKE FINANCIAL CAPITAL, GIVING PEOPLE MONEY OR SIMPLY GIVING PEOPLE EDUCATION, THOSE THINGS MATTER NO DOUBT.

BUT WE'RE SEEING WITH THE NEW DATA AND OTHER RELATED RESEARCH IS THAT SOCIAL CAPITAL MATTERS AS WELL IN ADDITION TO FINANCIAL CAPITAL AND EDUCATION INVESTMENTS.

SO WHAT DO I MEAN BY THAT?

WHAT I MEAN IS THAT WHO YOU'RE CONNECTED TO, WHO YOU'RE INSPIRED BY, WHAT YOUR NETWORKS LOOK LIKE, THE SOCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE OF SOCIETY SEEMS TO BE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT IN ADDITION TO THE BREAD AND BUTTER HOW MANY DOLLARS DO YOU HAVE, WHAT SCHOOLS DO YOU HAVE ACCESS TO AND SO ON.

AND OFTEN WHAT WE'RE SEEING, HARI, IS THE PROGRAMS THAT ARE MOST EFFECTIVE IN A WIDE VARIETY OF DOMAINS FROM AFFORDABLE HOUSING POLICY TO JOB TRAINING PROGRAMS, THEIR EDUCATIONAL POLICIES, THE INTERVENTIONS THAT ARE MOST EFFECTIVE PREPARE GIVING PEOPLE RESOURCES WITH SOCIAL SUPPORT TO USE THOSE RESOURCES MORE EFFECTIVELY.

LET ME GIVE YOU A CONCRETE EXAMPLE.

TAKE THE HOUSING VOUCHER PROGRAM ON WHICH WE SPEND MORE THAN $20 BILLION A YEAR IN THE U.S., GIVING FAMILIES RENTAL ASSISTANCE THAT IS INTENDED TO HELP THEM MOVE TO HIGHER OPPORTUNITY NEIGHBORHOODS.

FAMILIES GET THIS MONEY OFTEN WORTH $1500 A MONTH IN MANY PLACES.

NOT A SMALL SUM.

BUT THEY DON'T END UP USING THAT MONEY TO ACTUALLY MOVE TO BETTER NEIGHBORHOODS, BETTER ZIP CODES.

WHAT WE SEE IN OUR DATA, THEIR KIDS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BREAK THE CYCLE OF POVERTY.

SO WHAT WE'VE DONE IS IN THAT CONTEXT, AN INTERVENTION IN SEATTLE WHERE WE ESSENTIALLY PROVIDED SOCIAL SUPPORT TO FAMILIES, CONNECTED THEM WITH A COUNSELOR WHO FOUND HOUSING FOR THEM AND HIGHER OPPORTUNITY OPPORTUNITIES IF THEY WANTED TO MOVE THERE.

NEGOTIATED WITH THEM WITH LANDLORDS ON THEIR BEHALF.

BASICALLY, HELPED THEM THROUGH THE HOUSING SEARCH PROCESS.

AND THAT RELATIVELY INEXPENSIVE INTERVENTION DRAMATICALLY CHANGED THE FRACTION OF FAMILIES WHO MOVED TO HIGH OPPORTUNITY AREAS FROM 15% IN THE CONTROL GROUP, THIS WAS RUN AS A RANDOMIZED EXPERIMENT, TO 60% IN THE TREATMENT GROUP.

BASICALLY MAKING THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WE'RE ALREADY SPENDING FAR MORE EFFECTIVE IN TERMS OF HELPING KIDS RISE OUT OF POVERTY.

WE ESTIMATE THAT TWEAK TO THE PROGRAM WILL HELP KIDS OVER THEIR LIFETIMES EARN ABOUT $200,000 MORE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOW GOING TO BETTER SCHOOLS, GROWING UP IN MORE THRIVING COMMUNITIES AND SO ON.

SO THAT'S JUST ONE SMALL EXAMPLE.

THAT THEME I THINK OF USING THE RESOURCES WE'RE ALREADY SPENDING IN TANDEM WITH THE SOCIAL CAPITAL SORT OF INTERVENTION CAN BE APPLIED IN MANY DIFFERENT SETTINGS AND I THINK CAN MAKE OUR COUNTRY MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE IN HELPING PEOPLE RISE UP.

>> WHAT DO WE DO WITH ALL OF THE AREAS IN AMERICA THAT LACK THE SOCIAL CAPITAL TODAY WHETHER THEY'VE BEEN MARGINALIZED ALREADY, WHETHER THEY'RE ALREADY IMPOVERISHED ECONOMICALLY, WHETHER WHERE THERE ISN'T THAT ACCESS TO SOMEONE'S PARENTS WHO MIGHT HAVE A CONNECTION TO A JOB THAT THEY COULD WORK AT.

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

I'VE BEEN GIVING MOVING OPPORTUNITY, BRINGING PEOPLE TO OPPORTUNITY.

THAT CAN BE PART OF THE SOLUTION.

BUT OBVIOUSLY, IT'S NOT COMPLETELY SCALEABLE.

WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO DO IS BRING OPPORTUNITY TO PEOPLE WHERE THEY CURRENTLY LIVE IN PLACES WHERE IT'S LACKING.

AND SO THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT STRATEGIES ONE CAN TAKE.

LET ME GIVE YOU ANOTHER CONCRETE EXAMPLE.

I THINK THERE IS A NEW SET OF JOB TRAINING PROGRAMS THAT CAN CONNECT PEOPLE TO OPPORTUNITIES AND HAVE SHOWN TREMENDOUS SUCCESS IN RANDOMIZED TRIALS THAT AGAIN COMBINE TRADITIONAL SKILLS TRAINING, TEACHING PEOPLE I.T.

OR SOME OTHER SKILL THAT'S IN DEMAND, BUT NOW COMBINING THAT WITH SUPPORT FROM A NETWORK.

SO I'M THINKING OF PROGRAMS LIKE GEAR UP.

WHAT THEY DO IS BRING YOU IN FOR SOMETHING LIKE A ONE-YEAR INTERNSHIP, AND THEY SAY LOOK, BANK OF AMERICA IS LOOKING TO HIRE A THOUSAND PEOPLE.

THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED COMING BACK TO CHARLOTTE WHEN WE HAD OUR STUDY.

BANK OF AMERICA MADE A COMMITMENT TO HIRE A THOUSAND KIDS FROM DISADVANTAGED BACKGROUNDS WHO GREW UP IN CHARLOTTE ITSELF.

SO THE WAY THEY DID THAT IS THEY TEAMED UP WITH THIS GROUP YEAR UP IN A LOCAL COMMUNITY COLLEGE TO SAY WE WANT TO HIRE PEOPLE WHO CAN FILL THESE SPECIFIC JOBS.

LET'S PROVIDE THEM THE TRAINING THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET THOSE JOBS, BUT ALSO TELL THEM THAT THERE IS AN INTERNSHIP WAITING FOR THEM, PROVIDE THEM THE WRAPAROUND SOCIAL SUPPORT NEEDED TO BE ABLE TO SUCCEED IN THESE CAREERS AND SO ON.

AND IT TURNS OUT IF YOU DO A RANDOMIZED TRIAL, FLIP OF THE COIN, SOME PEOPLE GET ACCESS TO THIS PROGRAM, SOME DON'T.

THOSE WHO GET ACCESS TO IT, WE SEE A 40% EARNINGS GAIN SUSTAINED OVER MANY, MANY YEARS.

AND ARE NOW BECAUSE OF THAT SOCIAL CONTACT ON A TRAJECTORY WHERE THEY'RE PROVIDING FOR THEMSELVES, PROVIDING FOR THEIR FAMILIES.

THAT'S, AGAIN, ONE CONCRETE EXAMPLE OF THINGS WE CAN DO IN COMMUNITIES WHERE OPPORTUNITY IS CURRENTLY LACKING.

>> ALL RIGHT.

RAJ CHETTY, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS AT HARVARD AND DIRECTOR OF OPPORTUNITY INSIGHTS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, HARI.

MY PLEASURE.

>>> AND FINALLY, OLYMPIC GLORY IS STRETCHING FAR BEYOND THE MEDALS THAT WINNING THROATS HAVE EARNED.

FROM RECORD-SETTING INDELIBLE MOMENTS IN OLYMPIC HISTORY TO HEARTWARMING SCENES OF TRUE SPORTSMANSHIP.

AND THE FIRST AQUATIC OPENING CEREMONY, THE PARIS OLYMPICS CAN BE SEEN AS THE COMEBACK OF THE GAMES AFTER THE CHALLENGES POSSESSED BY THE PANDEMIC.

MY NEXT GUEST HAS SEEN ALL SORTS OF OLYMPIC HIGHS AND LOWS REPORTING ON 21 OLYMPICS THROUGHOUT HER CAREER.

CHRISTINE BRENNAN JOINS ME NOW FROM PARIS TO TALK ABOUT HER IMPRESSIONS SO FAR OF THE BIGGEST SPORTING EVENT IN THE WORLD.

CHRISTINE, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

IT'S ALWAYS ONE OF MY FAVORITE SEGMENTS WHEN I GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO YOU.

AND OUR BRILLIANT PRODUCERS, I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT WHEN THEY SAID THIS WAS YOUR 21st OLYMPICS THAT YOU'VE COVERED.

JUST UNBELIEVABLE.

WHAT A DREAM I WOULD IMAGINE THIS IS FOR YOU.

HOW DOES PARIS 2024 RATE?

>> RIGHT AT THE TOP, BIANNA.

IT MAY WELL BE NUMBER ONE OF ALL 21.

AND I STARTED BACK AT THE L.A. OLYMPICS IN 1984.

I'VE COVERED EVERY SUMMER AND WINTER OLYMPICS SINCE.

AS YOU SAID, HOW FORTUNATE AM I?

I AM SO LUCKY.

I WOULD HAVE HOPED AS A GIRL GROWING UP IN OHIO TO GO TO ONE AS A FAN.

AND SO 21 IN A ROW.

BUT, YES, I MEAN, PARIS, THE VISUAL FEAST THAT PARIS IS, IT'S JUST ABSOLUTELY EXTRAORDINARY.

THE COMPETITION HAS BEEN GREAT.

THE STORY LINES HAVE BEEN GREAT.

THANKFULLY SO FAR, KNOCK ON WOOD, NO PROBLEMS.

WE HAD THE TRAIN VANDALISM EARLY ON.

BUT OTHER THAN THAT, HOPEFULLY NOTHING ELSE.

AND I THINK WHEN YOU'VE GOT THAT COMBINATION OF GREAT, GREAT STORIES COMBINED WITH THIS INCREDIBLE CITY, IT IS JUST TRULY A MASTERPIECE, AN OLYMPIC MASTERPIECE.

>> I MEAN, IT IS AN EMBARRASSMENT OF RICHES WHEN YOU'VE GOT A BACKDROP LIKE THAT OF PARIS.

IT JUST YOU WATCH THE SPORTING EVENTS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LIGHT.

WHAT IF ANYTHING HAS STOOD OUT TO YOU FROM THE COMPETITIONS THUS FAR?

>> SURE.

I WAS AT THE SWIMMING VENUE THAT FIRST WEEK, AND LEON MARCHAND, OF COURSE THE FRENCH SWIMMER, TRAINS IN THE UNITED STATES, AND MARCHAND WENT FOUR FOR FOUR, BIANNA.

HE WON ALL FOUR OF HIS INDIVIDUAL RACES.

ALSO WON A BRONZE MEDAL IN THE RELAY.

WHEN I HEARD THAT CROWD AND WATCHED THAT CROWD GO ABSOLUTELY BONKERS, JUST CRAZY, AS LOUD AS I HAVE EVER HEARD IN AN ARENA, FOR ALL FOUR OF HIS RACES, SINGING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM, JUST BREAKING OUT INTO SONG FOR THIS YOUNG MAN WHO HAD THE WEIGHT OF THE WORLD ON HIS SHOULDERS, JUST AS DIFFICULT A TASK AS ANYONE, TO REALLY HOLD UP A NATION, AND HE SUCCEEDED.

HE SUCCEEDED BEYOND ANYONE'S WILDEST EXPECTATIONS WITH THOSE FOUR GOLD MEDALS, FOUR FOR FOUR, AS I SAID.

AND I HAVE A FEELING WE'LL SEE HIM AGAIN IN LOS ANGELES IN 2028.

BUT TO BE ON HOME SOIL, HOME WATER SO TO SPEAK AND HAVE THAT PERFORMANCE, IT WAS MAJESTIC.

AND FROM A U.S. PERSPECTIVE, OF COURSE, WE HAD KATIE LEDECKY, THE GREAT SWIMMER IN HER FOURTH OLYMPICS BECOMING THE MOST DECORATED FEMALE OLYMPIAN FROM THE UNITED STATES.

AND KATIE OF COURSE WITH TWO MORE GOLD, A SILVER AND A BRONZE.

AGAIN, JUST AS GREAT A PERFORMANCE AS YOU COULD HOPE FOR FROM THE GREAT KATIE LEDECKY.

AND WE'LL SEE HER AGAIN IN L.A. AS WELL.

SO FROM THE AMERICAN WOMEN TO MARCHAND TO A LOT OF EUROPEAN MEN AND THE AUSTRALIAN WOMEN AS WELL, ARIANNA TITMUS AND OTHERS, IT TRULY WAS A GREAT OLYMPICS IN THE POOL.

>> KATIE LEDECKY, I'M BLOWN AWAY BY HER.

I LIKE YOU, I LOVE WATCHING SWIMMING.

AND JUST TO SEE WHAT SHE'S ACCOMPLISHED, YOU KNOW, BOTH KATIE AND SPILLS INIMONE BILES, PRIDE.

YOU GET THE SENSE THAT KATIE COULD GET OUT OF THE WATER, GO GET A CUP OF COFFEE, TAKE A SHOWER, AND COME BACK AND PERHAPS THE BRONZE MEDALIST WILL HAVE TOUCHED THE WALL AT THIS POINT.

SHE IS JUST INCREDIBLE.

I DO HAVE TO NOTE THAT MICHAEL PHELPS ALSO A HERO IN THE SPORT OF SWIMMING, AND I THINK HOLDS THE MOST GOLD MEDALS OF ALL TIME, HE WAS NOT THAT INSPIRED OR IMPRESSED BY THE AMERICAN MEN SWIMMING THIS TIME AROUND.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID TO YOUR PUBLICATION, USA TODAY.

"FOR ME AS A WHOLE, I WAS PRETTY DISAPPOINTED TO SEE THE U.S.

SWIMMING RESULTS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE ALWAYS SAID OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS IS THE REST OF THE WORLD IS CATCHING UP."

I THINK THE SAME CAN BE SAID ABOUT U.S. WOMEN'S SOCCER.

WE'VE TALK ABOUT THAT IN THE PAST.

BUT WHAT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT MEN'S SWIMMING HE IS REFERENCING HERE?

>> OF COURSE, THERE IS NO MICHAEL PHELPS ANYMORE.

SO THE U.S. GOT VERY USED TO HAVING SOMEONE WHO WOULD WIN MONUMENT APPROXIMATELY MEDALS.

SO THAT'S JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN.

CAELEB DRESSEL, THE STAR FOR THE AMERICAN MEN AND THE AMERICANS IN GENERAL IN THE TOKYO GAMES THREE YEARS AGO DID NOT HAVE A GREAT OLYMPICS.

SO THAT WAS ANOTHER ISSUE OF COURSE.

AND I THINK FOR THE U.S. MEN, THERE ARE SOME OLDER SWIMMERS LIKE DRESSEL, AND SOME REALLY YOUNG, YOUNG MEN WHO ARE JUST IN THEIR TEENS OR EARLY 20s.

BUT THAT MIDDLE GROUP, THAT AGE GROUP WHERE I THINK MEN SWIMMING THEY'RE THE STRONGEST, THEY'RE THE MOST DEVELOPED, THE MOST MATURE AS ATHLETES, THAT IS WHERE THE UNITED STATES MEN WERE LACKING THIS TIME.

SO THAT'S WHAT PHELPS IS TALKING ABOUT.

THOSE YOUNGER GUYS HAVE TO GROW UP, AND OF COURSE THEY WILL, AND THEY'LL BE IN L.A., FIGHTING FOR A SPOT IN L.A.

IN 2028, BIANNA.

BUT I DO THINK THAT'S THE ISSUE HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

THEY JUST DIDN'T STEP UP.

THEY SWAM FASTER AT THE OLYMPIC TRIALS FOR THE UNITED STATES IN INDIANAPOLIS IN JUNE THAN THEY DID HERE, MANY OF THEM.

MANY OF THEM DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE FINALS.

SOME DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE SEMIFINALS OF THEIR RACES THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT MICHAEL PHELPS IS CONCERNED ABOUT.

>> THERE WERE A FEW WEAKNESSES THROUGHOUT THESE OLYMPIC GAMES, NAMELY THE CONCERN ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THE RIVER SEINE.

AND THEN WE HEARD SOME ATHLETES ACTUALLY GOT SICK AFTER SWIMMING THERE.

THERE HAD BEEN COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE ATHLETES VILLAGE, ABOUT CARDBOARD BEDS, NO AIR CONDITIONING.

HERE IS WHAT STAR BRITISH SWIMMER ADAM PEATY CRITICIZED.

HE SAID THE CATERING ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE TLEFL OF LEVEL OF ATHLETES EXPECTED TO PERFORM.

THERE WEREN'T ENOUGH PROTEIN OPTIONS AND THERE WERE LONG QUEUES.

HE EVEN SAID PEOPLE FOUND WORMS IN THEIR FOOD.

I DON'T WANT TO BE A DEBBIE DOWNER HERE, BUT ULTIMATELY THESE GAMES ARE NOT JUST ABOUT WHAT VIEWERS SEE.

IT'S ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE THAT THESE ATHLETES HAVE.

HAVE YOU HEARD SIMILAR CONCERNS?

WHAT WAS ULTIMATELY THE EXPERIENCE LIKE FOR THE MAJORITY OF THOSE THAT YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO?

>> I HAVE HEARD THOSE CONCERNS.

I HEARD THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH PROTEIN.

THE ATHLETES WHO NEED SO MUCH FOOD AND THE RIGHT KIND OF FOOD.

AND THEY DIDN'T GET THAT.

THE ATHLETES I TALKED TO WERE OKAY WITH THE BEDS, ALTHOUGH WE SHOULD NOTE THAT SEVERAL ATHLETES, TOP STARS ACTUALLY LEFT THE VILLAGE AND WENT INTO HOTELS.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT OF COURSE HAPPENS IN A LOT OF OLYMPICS.

IT'S HAPPENING WITH THE MEN'S BASKETBALL TEAM.

I THINK THE WOMEN'S BASKETBALL TEAM.

AND BOTTOM LINE IS IT'S JUST SOMETHING OVER THE YEARS THAT'S HAPPENED WITH GREAT STARS LIKE CARL LEWIS WHERE THEY GO TO HOTEL ROOMS.

IT'S THE BIGGEST MOMENT OF THEIR LIVES, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO BE STUCK IN AN OLYMPIC VILLAGE THAT JUST ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH OR IS MAKING THEIR LIVES DIFFICULT AT THE MOST IMPORTANT MOMENT OF THEIR LIVES, RIGHT.

SO THAT'S WHAT THIS IS.

BUT I THINK THESE THINGS HAPPEN ALMOST EVERY OLYMPICS I HAVE TO SAY.

HOWEVER, WHEN IT HAPPENS TO A PARTICULAR ATHLETE, IT IS TROUBLESOME.

AND THE FOOD LINES AND THE ISSUE WITH AIR CONDITIONING AND THE BEDS, THESE WERE ISSUES.

THEY WILL BE PART OF THE STORY LINE OF THE PARIS 2024 GAMES.

I DON'T THINK THEY'LL BE THE NUMBER ONE STORY LINE BY ANY MEANS.

BUT I DO THINK THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE REMEMBER, AND OF COURSE FOR THE ATHLETES.

IF THAT'S THE TAKEAWAY, THEN THAT'S UNFORTUNATE.

>> LOOK, AS WE FACE THE REALITY OF CLIMATE CHANGE, THE HEAT THESE SUMMER GAMES, IT'S GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE A MAJOR ISSUE IN THE YEARS TO COME.

SPEAKING OF WHAT'S TO COME, WE'VE GOT, AS YOU NOTED, THE OLYMPICS COMING TO THE UNITED STATES IN FOUR YEARS.

2028 LOS ANGELES.

DO YOU THINK L.A. CAN COMPETE RIGHT UP THERE WITH WHAT YOU'VE EXPERIENCED IN PARIS?

>> YOU KNOW, I DO.

AND HERE'S WHY, BIANNA.

BEIJING, THE 2008 SUMMER OLYMPICS WERE EXTRAORDINARY.

THEIR OPENING CEREMONY, AND OF COURSE CHINA, A COMMUNIST NATION, THEY HIT ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS THAT OCCURRED DURING THOSE GAMES.

IT WAS NOT A GOOD SITUATION AT ALL.

AND OF COURSE THE FACT THAT WE DIDN'T FIND OUT ABOUT ALL OF THE THINGS THEY WERE DOING WITH THE YOUNG ATHLETES, THAT WAS A PROBLEM.

BUT THEY PUT ON A GLORIOUS OPENING CEREMONY IN PARTICULAR IN BEIJING.

SO THERE WAS A LOT OF CONVERSATION HOW ON EARTH CAN LONDON IN 2012 EXCEED THAT?

WELL, WHAT LONDON DID IS THEY BROUGHT PAUL McCARTNEY IN, AND THEY HAD DANCING MARY POPPINS AND OF COURSE THE QUEEN BASICALLY PARACHUTING, OF COURSE NOT REALLY, WITH JAMES BOND INTO THE OPENING CEREMONIES.

AND LONDON WAS LONDON, AND THEY PULLED IT OFF.

I TOTALLY REMEMBER THOSE FOUR YEARS OF THE THOUGHT OF LONDON.

THERE IS NO WAY THEY CAN COMPETE WITH THE INCREDIBLE EXTRAVAGANCE, THE TECHNICAL EXTRAVAGANCE OF BEIJING IN 2008.

AND LONDON DID IT.

SO I THINK L.A.

NEEDS TO BE L.A. AND I THINK WE'LL SEE A LOT OF HOLLYWOOD.

WE'LL SEE A LOT OF THE OCEAN AND OF COURSE THE BEACH AND THE MOUNTAINS.

AND IT WILL BE ONE OF THOSE STORY LINES THAT AGAIN, I THINK WE WILL SAY, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS INCREDIBLE IN PARIS, AND THE SEINE RIVER, AND THIS OPEN THEATER AS PRESIDENT MACRON SAID ABOUT USING THE SEINE FOR THE OPENING CEREMONIES, THAT'S EXTRAORDINARY.

BUT I THINK THAT ANY CITY WILL BE ABLE TO PULL THIS OFF.

AND I DO THINK ONE OTHER POINT.

THE ATHLETES COMING DOWN THE RIVER, WHILE THAT LOOKED TERRIFIC, THEY DIDN'T GET THE GREAT APPLAUSE THAT THEY NORMALLY GET IN A STADIUM FOR THE OPENING CEREMONIES.

AND I THINK IN L.A.

THEY WILL FOR SURE.

>> LISTEN, LONDON MAY HAVE HAD PAUL McCARTNEY, BUT L.A. IS GOING TO HAVE THE GREAT CHRISTINE BRENNAN HERE COVERING THE SPORTS FROM HOME TURF.

THAT WILL BE YOUR 23rd OLYMPICS THAT YOU WILL BE COVERING FOR US.

WE CAN'T WAIT.

IT'S SO FUN TO WATCH YOU.

IT'S ALWAYS WONDERFUL TO TALK TO YOU.

AND I JUST THINK WATCHING THESE WORLD ATHLETES SHINE IS SOMETHING THAT WE ALL NEED AT A TIME LIKE, THIS EVERYONE COMING TOGETHER.

THANK YOU FROM THE BEAUTIFUL CITY OF PARIS.

WE'LL TALK TO YOU VERY SOON.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

TAKE CARE.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR EASTBOUND NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & CO." ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.