Author Salman Rushdie: “Truth Is a Battle”

> AND NOW OUR NEXT GUEST IS IS NO STRANGER TO ATTACKS ON FREE SPEECH.

IN 1989 HE WAS FAMOUSLY THE SUBJECT -- BY THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC CALLING FOR HIS ASSASSINATION ALL BECAUSE HIS NOVEL WAS DEEMED BLASPHEMOUS.

AND THE AUTHOR IS OUT WITH A NEW COLLECTION OF ESSAYS, LANGUAGES OF TRUTH.

HERE HE IS SPEAKING TO WALTER ISAKSON ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF STORYTELLING AND THE DANGERS OF CANCEL CULTURE.

THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

HELLO, NICE TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN.

YOUR WONDERFUL NEW COLLECTION OF ESSAYS IS CALLED 'THE LANGUAGES OF TRUTH.'

YOU SAY THAT THE LANGUAGES OF TRUTH THE ONLY MAGIC IN WHICH I BELIEVE.

THAT'S A WONDERFUL SENTENCE IN YOUR COLLECTION.

TELL ME WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT.

I'M NOT -- IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT I'VE BEEN ACCUSED OF MAGIC REALISM ALL MY LIFE.

I ACTUALLY DON'T BELIEVE IN THE LITERALLY TRUTH OF FAIRYTALES.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT CARPETS FLY.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT ANY OF THOSE BEAUTIFUL IMAGES ARE TRUE IN A KIND OF LITERALLY WORLD WAY.

BUT I THINK THEY CONTAIN DEEP TRUTH AS WE ALL KNOW FROM CHILDHOOD UPWARDS.

WHEN WE READ THESE BEAUTIFUL TALES, WE RECEIVE THEM AS THE TRUTH.

AND THEY HELP TO SHAPE OUR PICTURE OF THE WORLD.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE ARTS CAN DO -- AND I'M MAKING A SPECIAL CASE FOR LITERATURE, BUT I THINK IT APPLIES ACROSS THE ARTS, IS THAT THEY CAN -- IF YOU LIKE, ESTABLISH A CONTRACT BETWEEN THE READER AND THE WRITER ABOUT WHAT THE TRUTH IS.

WHEN YOU READ A BOOK THAT YOU LIKE, OR WHICH SPEAKS TO YOU, YOU FIND YOURSELF THINKING, YES, THIS IS HOW IT IS.

THIS IS WHAT WE'RE LIKE.

THIS IS WHY WE DO WHAT WE DO TO EACH OTHER.

AND SO WE GET A NEUTRAL BELIEF BETWEEN THE WRITER AND THE READER.

AND I THINK PARTICULARLY IN AN AGE WHERE THE TRUTH HAS BEEN ASTONISHINGLY UNDER ATTACK, THAT MAY NOT BE -- THAT MIGHT BE A VALUABLE THING TO DO.

YOU SAY THE TRUTH IS UNDER ATTACK.

DO YOU THINK THE TRUTH IS AN OBJECTIVE THING THAT WE CAN GATHER WITH FACTS OR ARE THERE MULTIPLE TRUTHS?

WELL, I THINK THERE ARE THINGS WHICH ARE JUST SO.

THE WORLD IS ROUND.

THERE'S A WONDERFUL PASSAGE IN '100 YEARS OF SOLITUDE' IN WHICH THE GREAT PATRIARCH COMES TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE WORLD IS ROUND.

HE TELLS HIS WIFE, THE WORLD IS ROUND LIKE AN ORANGE AND SHE SAYS YOU CAN DO THAT CRAZY STUFF IN THE LABORATORY, BUT DON'T FILL YOUR KIDS' HEADS WITH THAT NONSENSE.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE PROVABLY SO.

AND ONE OF THE WEIRD THINGS ABOUT OUR TIME IS THAT EVEN THOSE THINGS, WHO WON THE ELECTION, FOR WHICH THERE IS OBVIOUS OBJECTIVE PROOF ARE NOW BROUGHT INTO QUESTION.

BUT ANOTHER SENSE IN WHICH THE TRUTH IS A VERY CONTESTED THING.

I GREW UP IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

AND WHAT THE BRITISH TOLD PEOPLE WAS THE TRUTH ABOUT IT WAS VERY RAPIDLY PROVED TO BE SOMETHING VERY UNLIKE THE TRUTH.

I REMEMBER IN INDIA, THE HISTORY BOOKS CHANGING, FROM THE ONES THAT THE BRITISH HAD LEFT BEHIND, TO THE ONES THAT HAD BEEN WRITTEN AFTER INDEPENDENCE AND PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN CHARACTERIZED AS VILLAINS WERE CHARACTERIZED AS HEROES BECAUSE OF THEIR PART IN THE INDEPENDENCE STRUGGLE.

SO TRUTH IS A BACKLOG, THERE'S NO QUESTION.

AND MAYBE NEVER MORE SO THAN NOW.

WE'RE REWRITING HISTORY NOW SOMETIMES TO GET CLOSER TO THE TRUTH.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S A GOOD THING TO BE REWRITING HISTORY AND TRYING TO FIND THE TRUTHS OF THE PAST?

I THINK EVERY AGE DOES IT.

THE TRUTH -- WHEN I WAS -- I STUDIED HISTORY AT THE UNIVERSITY AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU FIND IS THAT EACH SUCCESSIVE AGE REWRITES THE PAST TO SUIT ITS OWN INTERESTS.

WHAT WE ARE INTERESTED IN TODAY, WE LOOK BACK INTO THE PAST AND WE SEE IT THERE.

WE SEE VERSIONS OF IT THERE.

THE WAY IN WHICH 17th CENTURY LOOKED AT THE 16th CENTURY IS NOT THE WAY IN WHICH THE 18th CENTURY LOOKED AT THE 16th CENTURY.

AS THE CENTURIES ROLL BY, WE'RE ALWAYS REWRITING THE PAST.

AND SOMETIMES THAT CAN BE ENORMOUSLY BENEFICIAL.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN AMERICA, THERE WAS A PERIOD OF TIME WHEN SLAVERY WAS AN ACCEPTED THING.

AND THEN THAT RADICALLY CHANGED.

AND THE HISTORY OF SLAVE-OWNING AMERICA WAS SUBSEQUENTLY REWRITTEN IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

SO EACH AGE RETHINKS THE PAST, REUNDERSTANDS IT TO PICK ITS OWN INTERESTS AND THIS AGE IS NO EXCEPTION.

WHAT IS THE CONNECTION IN YOUR MIND BETWEEN TRUTH AND FREEDOM?

I THINK THEY'RE TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN.

I THINK ONE OF THE CHARACTERISTICS OF ALL AUTHORITARIAN AND UNFREE SOCIETIES IS THEY TRY TO IMPOSE ON THEIR SOCIETY A NARRATIVE WHICH IS A LIE.

WHATEVER KIND OF DICTATOR OR AUTHORITARIAN RULER THERE'S EVER BEEN, TRIES TO IMPOSE HIS NARRATIVE ON THE WORLD AND TO DENY THE TRUTH OF EVERYTHING ELSE, AND THAT NARRATIVE IS USUALLY RADICALLY FALSE NARRATIVE.

SO THE TRUTH IS -- HAS ALWAYS BEEN WHEN PEOPLE SAY THE TRUTH CAN SET YOU FREE, ONE OF THE THINGS THEY MEAN IS THE TRUTH HAS TO GO TO WAR AGAINST THE LIE.

AND IT'S VERY OFTEN A BLOODY WAR.

YOU WRITE THAT WE LIVE IN ANNAGE IN WHICH MANY PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE COME TO FEEL THAT LIMITATIONS NEEDS TO BE PLACED ON FREE EXPRESSION.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF CANCEL CULTURE, DEPLATFORMING?

I'M NOT A FAN OF IT, TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.

HERE'S THE THING.

EVEN IN THE WESTERN DEMOCRACIES, DIFFERENCE SOCIETIES DRAW THE LINE IN DIFFERENT PLACES.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE UK, THERE'S A THING CALLED THE RACE RELATIONS ACT.

AND IT MAKES IT ILLEGAL TO MAKE RACIST REMARKS.

IF YOU MAKE OPENLY RACIST REMARKS, YOU CAN BE PROSECUTED AND SENT TO JAIL.

HERE IN AMERICA, THE FIRST AMENDMENT HAS A BROADER INTERPRETATION OF WHAT IS PERMISSIBLE SPEECH.

AND THINGS THAT WOULD NOT BE PERMISSIBLE UNDER THE RACE RELATIONS ACT ARE PERMISSIBLE HERE.

THERE ARE COUNTRIES IN EUROPE WHICH MAKE IT ILLEGAL TO DENY THE HOLOCAUST.

IT'S PUNISHABLE BY JAIL SENTENCES TO DENY THE HOLOCAUST.

I BELIEVE IN GERMANY AND AUSTRIA.

YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY.

IN THIS COUNTRY, THE FIRST AMENDMENT PROTECTS EVEN THAT.

SO THE ARGUMENT ABOUT THIS IS AN ARGUMENT AMONGST FRIENDS, IF YOU WOULD LIKE, WHAT ARE THE LIMITS OF EXPRESSION?

AND THE FIRST AMENDMENT HAS THE BROADEST ANSWER TO THAT.

AND WHEN I 21 YEARS AGO CAME TO LIVE IN AMERICA FROM ENGLAND, ESSENTIALLY I CHANGED MY MIND.

I USED TO THINK THAT THE BRITISH WAY WAS FINE.

IF PEOPLE ARE PRESENTED FROM MAKING RACIST REMARKS, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT.

I THOUGHT PERFECTLY REASONABLE.

I CAME TO SEE THAT THIS BROADER CHURCH, IF YOU WOULD LIKE, WHERE EVEN VERY UNATTRACTIVE FORMS OF SPEECH ARE PERMITTED IS PREFERABLE BECAUSE, FIRST OF ALL, YOU DON'T CHANGE UNPLEASANT OPINIONS BY FOR BIDDING THEM TO BE EXPRESSED.

YOU SOMETIMES GIVE THEM THE GLAMOUR OF BEING UNDERGROUND AND TABOO.

I WOULD SOONER KNOW WHERE THOSE UNPLEASANT EXPRESSIONS ARE, WHO THINKS THAT.

I WANT TO KNOW WHERE THE ENEMY IS, IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, RATHER THAN HAVE THE ENEMIES STALKING IN THE SHADOWS.

I CAME AROUND TO THINKING THAT THE FIRST AMENDMENT WAS PREFERABLE TO THE BRITISH WAY.

BUT I ALSO UNDERSTAND THE BRITISH WAY.

IT'S A CONSTANT -- IT'S AN INTELLECTUAL STRUGGLE WHERE THE LINE OF FREEDOM IS DRAWN.

WHEN YOU WERE HIT BY THE IRANIANS FOR BLAPHSAMY, DID THAT HELP BE IN FAVOR OF FREE SPEECH.

I WAS LIVING IN THE UK AT THE TIME.

I HAD BEEN INVOLVED FOR MANY, MANY YEARS SUBSEQUENTLY WITH PAN AMERICA.

SO I HAD -- I WAS IN THAT CAMP ANYWAY.

BUT IT MADE IT PERSONAL IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

AND, YEAH, IT CLARIFIED A LOT OF THINGS FOR ME.

IT MADE ME FEEL VERY CLEAR ABOUT CERTAIN THINGS, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT IDEAS DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE PROTECTED.

IT'S PERFECTLY RIGHT THAT YOU SHOULD PROTECT PEOPLE OF THIS OR THAT RELIGION AGAINST HATEFUL ATTACKS.

BUT IT'S NOT CORRECT THAT YOU REFENCE THE THINGS PEOPLE THINK.

IF YOU BELIEVE THE WORLD IS FLAT AND I KNOW THAT THE WORLD AIN'T FLAT, IT'S PERFECTLY REASONABLE FOR ME TO CALL YOU AN IDIOT, EVEN IF YOU SAY THE WORLD BEING FLAT IS A PART OF YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM.

YOU'RE STILL AN IDIOT.

AND I THINK IT MUST BE POSSIBLE FOR US TO DISAGREE WITH PEOPLE'S IDEAS, IS WHAT I'M SAYING.

EVEN IF THOSE IDEAS ARE GIVEN THE KIND OF PROTECTION OF SOME KIND OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF SYSTEM.

IF YOU DISSENT FROM THAT, YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DO IT.

YOU CAN'T PERSECUTE PEOPLE FOR BELIEVING DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU.

I MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN PROTECTING HUMAN BEINGS, BUT NOT PROTECTING IDEAS.

YOUR FIGHT AGAINST BLASPHEMY WAS WITH AUTHORITARIANS ON THE RIGHT, AUTHORITARIANS WHO TRIED TO CENSOR SPEECH.

DO YOU THINK WE'RE FACED WITH A SIMILAR CHALLENGE FROM THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT?

I THINK THERE'S A BIT OF IT, YEAH.

I THINK -- IT CERTAINLY USED TO BE THE CASE THAT CENSORSHIP CAME FROM OLD CONSERVATIVE LARGELY WHITE MEN.

NOT ALWAYS WHITE MEN.

NOW YOU FIND THAT THERE'S A WILLINGNESS AMONG THE YOUNGER PEOPLE FOR IDEALISTIC REASONS TO SAY THAT CERTAIN KINDS OF EXPRESSION SHOULD NOT HAVE ITS PLACE IN SOCIETY.

AND THESE ARE NOT PEOPLE DOING IT FOR BAD REASONS.

THEY THINK THEY'RE DOING IT FOR PRINCIPLED REASONS.

AND NO DOUBT, THEY ARE ACTING OUT OF A KIND OF PRINCIPLE.

WHAT I WOULD SAY IS IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF CENSORSHIP, WHEREVER CENSORSHIP HAS BEEN IMPOSED RIGOROUSLY, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN MINORITIES WHO HAVE SUFFERED THE MOST.

BY MINORITIES I WILL INCLUDE WOMEN.

WOMEN, RACIAL AND ETHNIC MINORITIES, THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO SUFFER WHEN CENSORSHIP -- WHEN SPEECH IS LIMITED.

AND SO IF IN THE NAME OF DEFENDING THOSE MINORITIES YOU BEGIN TO BECOME WILLING TO RESTRICT SPEECH, IT'S A VERY SLIPPERY SLOPE.

HISTORY TELLS US THAT THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO WILL BE MOST AFFECTED.

DON'T YOU THINK WE SOMETIMES HAVE TO MAKE SURE WE DON'T OFFEND PEOPLE'S FEELINGS?

AS A HUMAN BEING, I DON'T LIKE OFFENDING PEOPLE'S FEELINGS.

I THINK I'M A REASONABLY POLITE GUY.

IF THE EXPRESSION OF AN IDEA STRONGLY EXPRESSED IS NOT LIKED BY SOMEBODY ELSE, THEN I'M AFRAID THAT'S JUST TOUGH.

I REMEMBER SEEING THE BRITISH WRITER AND COMEDIAN STEVEN FRY INTERESTING INTERVIEWED ON THIS SUBJECT AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU FEEL, WHAT -- HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE FACT THAT I MAY FIND SOMETHING YOU SAY VERY OFFENSIVE?

AND STEVEN REPLIED, SO WHAT?

THE POINT BEING, SERIOUS POINT BEING, THERE'S NO RIGHT NOT TO BE OFFENDED.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE A BOOK, READ ANOTHER BOOK.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE AN IDEA ON TELEVISION, CHANGE THE CHANNEL.

IN A FREE SOCIETY, WE GET TO CHOOSE WHAT WE READ, WHAT -- WHAT WE LISTEN TO, WHAT WE UNDERSTAND, WHAT WE ACCEPT AND WHAT WE REJECT.

BUT WE DON'T, I THINK, HAVE RIGHT TO VETO THE EXISTENCE OF THINGS WITH WHICH WE DON'T AGREE.

THIS IS NOT DIFFICULT.

IT'S QUITE EASY TO BELIEVE IN FREE SPEECH IF BELIEVING IN FREE SPEECH ONLY BELIEVES IN FEATURE THAT YOU BELIEVE IN.

IT'S WHEN SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE THAT YOU DISCOVER WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IN FREE SPEECH OR NOT.

VERY OFTEN IN THIS CORNER OF THE WORLD YOU FIND YOURSELF DEFENDING STUFF YOU CAN'T STAND.

DEFENDING ITS RIGHT TO BE.

THAT HAS TO BE SO, OTHERWISE WE LOSE IT.

STORIES WE FALL IN LOVE WITH WHEN WE'RE YOUNG DEFINE WHO WE ARE.

WHAT DID YOU FALL IN LOVE WITH WHEN YOU ARE YOUNG GROWING UP IN BOMBAY.

THE WONDERFUL THING ABOUT GROWING UP IN INDIA IS THAT YOU ARE SURROUNDED -- THE KIND OF STOREHOUSE OF LITERATURE THAT IS GIVEN TO YOU IS VERY MAGICAL.

IT'S FULL OF SUPERNATURAL BEINGS AND GRAND AERIAL BATTLES AND EVERYTHING THAT YOU NOW SEE IN MARVEL COMICS AND MOVIES, YOU KNOW, DONE MUCH BETTER.

THE FIRST TIME I HEARD ABOUT THE SAILOR, ALADDIN WAS IN STORIES THAT MY FATHER TOLD ME AS BEDTIME STORIES WHICH WERE HIS ADAPTATIONS OF THE ORIGINALS.

BUT THEY LEFT A LASTING EFFECT ON ME BECAUSE THEY WERE ABOUT THINGS THAT HUMAN BEINGS RECOGNIZED.

THEY'RE ABOUT COURAGE AND COWARD ESS, LOVE AND HATRED.

YOU GET AN UNDERSTANDING WHAT HUMAN NATURE IS LIKE.

MANY OF THE STORIES -- IN MANY OF THE STORIES PEOPLE BEHAVE IN SNEAKY WAYS.

THERE'S LOTS OF KIND OF POOR BEHAVIOR AND ALSO IT'S NOT ALWAYS THE CASE THAT THE BAD GUYS GET THEIR COMEUPPANCE.

IN MANY OF THE STORIES, THE BAD GUYS WIN.

THAT'S A LESSON TO LEARN WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG AS WELL.

IT GAVE ME A GROUNDING, FIRST OF ALL, IN A WONDERFUL RANGE OF POSSIBILITY FOR FICTION.

I DIDN'T HAVE TO SIMPLY BE UNNATURALISTIC.

IT COULD BE ALL THESE OTHER THINGS.

BUT ALSO GROUNDING IN THE IMPORTANCE OF WRITING ABOUT THE DEEP TRUTHS ABOUT HUMAN BEINGS.

AND I THINK -- I ALWAYS TRY TO DO THAT AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE I SAY THAT LITERATURE IS ALWAYS ABOUT THE TRUTH.

IT JUST COMES -- THIS KIND OF LITERATURE, FABULOUS LITERATURE, FANTASTIC LITERATURE, SIMPLY COMES AT THE TRUTH THROUGH DIFFERENT DOORS.

THE SUBJECT IS ALWAYS WHAT ARE WE LIKE?

WHO ARE WE?

WHY DO WE DO THE THINGS WE DO?

HOW DO WE UNDERSTAND THE WORLDS IN WHICH WE LIVE.

CAN WE CHANGE THE WORLD OR DOES THE WORLD JUST SIMPLY CHANGE US?

ALL THE GREAT QUESTIONS OF LITERATURE CAN BE ANSWERED THROUGH THE FAIRY TALE, THROUGH THE WONDER TALE AS MUCH AS IT CAN THROUGH THE REALISTIC MODEL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

THANK YOU.