Black Feminist Loretta J. Ross Combats Cancel Culture

> NOW, CREATING CONVERSATIONS ACROSS BORDERS LIKE MY PREVIOUS GUESTS ARE TRYING TO DO IS HARD ENOUGH, BUT IN THE WILD WEST OF THE INTERNET IT CAN CAN BE EVEN TOUGHER, ESPECIALLY WHEN ONE PERCEIVED MISSTEP CAN SEE SOMEONE CALLED OUT OR CANCELED.

THESE TWO THINGS CAN CLOSE DOWN DIALOGUE WITHOUT REMEDYING THE PROBLEM.

THAT'S THE VIEW OF MY NEXT GUEST.

SMITH COLLEGE VISITING ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR LORETTA J. ROSS.

HERE SHE IS SPEAKING TO OUR MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT TEACHING A CLASS ON EXACTLY THAT SUBJECT.

THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSOR ROSS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON YOUR SHOW.

YOU KNOW, YOU'VE HAD SUCH A LONG AND VARIED CAREER BOTH IN THE ACADEMY AND IN ACTIVISM.

I'M JUST WONDERING HOW YOU BROUGHT ALL THAT TOGETHER WITH THIS CHORUS AT SMITH ON CANCEL CULTURE.

WELL, ACTUALLY I HAD A LONGER CAREER IN ACTIVISM THAN I HAD IN ACADEMY.

I'VE ONLY BEEN TEACHING FOR FIVE YEARS BECAUSE I ONLY GRADUATED COLLEGE WHEN I WAS 55.

NICE.

SO I WAS AN ACTIVIST.

I STARTED OUT IN WASHINGTON, D.C., GOING TO HOWARD UNIVERSITY AND BECAME THE THIRD EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE D.C. CRISIS CENTER.

STAYED IN THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

UNTIL 1990 WHEN I BECAME PART OF THE STAFF OF THE NATIONAL ANTI-KLAN NETWORK.

AND THAT'S WHERE I ENCOUNTERED HATE GROUPS FOR THE FIRST TIME AND MY JOB WAS TO MONITOR THEM, FIND OUT ABOUT THEM, BUT MY BOSS WAS REVEREND C.T. VIVIENNE.

HE SAID A LONG TIME AGO WHEN I FIRST CAME, HE SAID, LORETTA, WHEN YOU ASK PEOPLE TO -- BE THERE FOR THEM WHEN THEY DO.

THIS, LIKE, STUNNED ME BECAUSE I WASN'T READY TO NOT TAKE THE PLAN.

AND, IN FACT, HE WAS RIGHT.

AND SO WORKING WITH MY RESEARCH DIRECTOR, WE STARTED DOING PROGRAMMING OF PEOPLE WHO LEFT THE HATE GROUP, LEFT THE NEO-NAZI GROUP, THE KLAN, MILITIAS, THE SKINHEADS, ALL OF THAT.

AND THAT LED ME TO TODAY BECAUSE I THOUGHT IF YOU CAN LEARN HOW TO TALK TO THE KLAN, KLANSMEN, MILITIAS, RACISTS, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO TALK TO SOMEBODY THAT MADE A MISTAKE, THAT USED A BLUE JOKE YOU DIDN'T LIKE OR ALL THE THINGS I'M WITNESSING OVER SOCIAL MEDIA, WHERE PEOPLE ARE SO EASY TO TAKE OFFENSE TO THINGS THAT PEOPLE MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW ARE OFFENSIVE, AND THEN THEY WANT TO CANCEL THEM FOR DOING IT.

SO THERE'S A WHOLE CULTURE OF UNFORGIVABILITY LIKE YOU'VE GOT TO GET EVERYTHING PERFECTLY RIGHT WHEN YOU OPEN UP YOUR MOUTH AND HAVE ENOUGH HOPE IF SOMEONE FINDS SOMETHING ON TAPE YOU SAID 20 YEARS AGO BECAUSE YOU CAN GET FIRED FOR IT.

I UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR CLASS IS VERY POPULAR WHICH SPEAKS TO THE FACT THAT THERE'S A YOUNGER FOR FOR A WAY TO TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES.

HOW DOES YOUR CLASS WORK?

FIRST OF ALL, ON FIRST DAY OF CLASS I TELL MY CLASS THEY ARE NO TRIGGER WARNINGS IN THIS CLASS.

IF YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO BE UPSET BY ANYTHING YOU OR YOUR CLASSMATES SAY, I REALLY SUGGEST THAT YOU DROP OUT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE FRANK DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE DIFFERENT ISSUES OF THE DAY, DIFFERENT WAYS WE NEED TO BECOME CIVICALLY MINDED STUDENTS AND PARTICIPANTS IN BUILDING OUR DEMOCRACY THAT ACTUALLY HAS NEVER BEEN BECAUSE WE HAVE TO WORK ON ENSURING EQUALITY AND JUSTICE IS STILL A PROCESS.

MATTER OF FACT, I -- CONTINUING CIVIL WAR OVER WHAT AMERICA WILL BE.

AND SO I DON'T USE TRIGGER WARNINGS.

I ALSO DON'T THINK THAT LEARNING SHOULD BE A HAZING PROCESS.

AND SO I GIVE THEM A TON OF READING THAT I EXPECT THEM TO DO.

I TELL THEM THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE READING FROM BOTH LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE WRITERS BECAUSE YOU NEED TO HAVE A RANGE OF MATERIAL AVAILABLE TO YOU TO MAKE UP YOUR MIND WHAT YOU BELIEVE.

I TELL THEM, DON'T EVEN BELIEVE ME BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO HAVE THAT CRITICAL SKEPTICISM ALL OF YOUR LIFE.

WHAT EFFECT YOU SEEN ON YOUR STUDENTS?

I MEAN, AS YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, CONSERVATIVES HAVE MADE THIS ONE OF THEIR COLLEGES PARTICULARLY ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

ONE CONSERVATIVE SENATOR SAID THE OTHER DAY, YOU KNOW, WHO WENT TO PRINCETON, HE SAID I COULDN'T HAVE SURVIVED AT PRINCETON NOW BECAUSE CANCEL CULTURE WOULD HAVE DESTROYED ME, SO OBVIOUSLY CONSERVATIVES ARE VERY, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN SORT OF A CAUSE CELEB AMONG CONSERVATIVES.

FOR YOURSELF AS A SELF-DESCRIBED RADICAL BLACK FEMINIST, WHAT EFFECT ARE YOU SEEING ON YOUR STUDENTS?

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, SOME STUDENTS ARE AFRAID TO SPEAK UP BECAUSE THEY WANT TO GET THE PERFECT THOUGHT OUT THERE BEFORE THEY GET POUNCED ON, BUT I DO WANT TO BACK UP A LITTLE BIT AND TALK ABOUT CONSERVATIVES.

WHAT WE ARE WITNESSING IS PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO DEMOCRATIZE FREE SPEECH.

AND YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT EVERYBODY WITH A KEYBOARD CAN HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE WORDS THAT YOU SAID, FOR THE THINGS THAT YOU'VE DONE.

AND IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GET IN TROUBLE, STOP SAYING THOSE WORDS, STOP DOING THOSE THINGS AND RUN IN FRONT OF THE BAD STORIES FROM YOUR LIFE.

I MEAN, ALL THAT IS YOURS.

WHEN THE RIGHT-LEANING CONSERVATIVES TALK ABOUT THE CANCEL CULTURE, WE'RE FOISTING IT ON THEM, I SEEM TO RECALL THEM BEING A LITTLE MAD ABOUT 'HARRY POTTER' OR 'THE PASSION OF CHRIST' OR A WHOLE LOT OF THINGS THAT THEY OBJECT TO IN POPULAR CULTURE.

RIGHT NOW, THEY'RE TRYING TO BOYCOTT RAINBOW-COLORED OREO COOKIES.

I MEAN, FOR GOD'S SAKES.

SO IT'S A BIT MUCH FOR THEM TO CLAIM THAT IT'S A PROBLEM OF THE LEFT CANCELING THEM WHEN MOST OF THE CANCELATIONS GO FROM THE RIGHT TO THE LEFT.

NEVERTHELESS, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE START ESTABLISHING WHAT WE CALL DEMOCRATIC SPEECH ENVIRONMENT WHERE PEOPLE USE THEIR SPEECH TO WORK TOWARD JUSTICE, FAIRNESS, AND EQUALITY VERSUS SHAME, BLAME, AND CHEAP PUBLICITY WHEN YOU BLOW UP SOMEBODY'S LIFE.

WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE, FIRST OF ALL, TEACHING ON OUR CAMPUSES THE PROPER USE OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

THAT IT'S AN OBLIGATION FOR GOVERNMENTS NOT TO VIOLATE BUT PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS HAVE TO PRIORITIZE THE SAFETY AND LEARNING ENVIRONMENT OF OUR STUDENTS.

AND SO WE NEED TO TEACH THEM HOW TO USE THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

TEACH THEM NOT TO OVERREACT WHEN SOMEONE USES THE WRONG GENDER PRONOUN OR, YOU KNOW, USES AN OUTDATED WORD LIKE RETARDED OR SOMETHING, BUT SHOW THEM THAT THE PEOPLE YOU'RE CRITICIZING ARE AS COMPLICATED AS YOU ARE AND THEY'RE LEARNING JUST LIKE YOU'RE LEARNING.

WE HAVE TO HAVE GRACE AND FORGIVENESS AS WE LIVE IN THIS PLURALISTIC SOCIETY AND WE LEARN THAT EVERYBODY WON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH US TO BE WITH US.

AND SO A DEMOCRATIC SPEECH ENVIRONMENT IS SOMETHING WE'RE TALKING A LOT OF ABOUT ON OUR CAMPUSES RIGHT NOW.

SO THAT WE FURTHER THE GOALS OF DEMOCRACY RATHER THAN USE FREE SPEECH TO BRING DOWN DEMOCRACY WHICH WE ENDURED FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

WE'VE ALSO SEEN ISSUES WHERE SCHOLARS, AND I'M THINKING ABOUT SIR CHARLES MURRAY AT THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, WHO'S RETIRING NOW, MANY PEOPLE, THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE OVER TIME WHO FELT HIS SCHOLARSHIP WENT INTO RACIST GREGATIONS OF PEOPLE'S INTELLIGENCE.

HE DENIES THAT, BUT THAT NEVERTHELESS HAS BEEN HIS PERCEPTION.

HOW DO YOU SEE THAT?

RACIALIZED SCIENCE HAS NO PLACE ON MODERN CAMPUSES.

THERE'S A GOOD USE FOR SCIENCE, BUT WE WHO ARE SCIENTISTS, BECAUSE I MAJORED IN CHEMISTRY AND PHYSICS, I WOULDN'T INVITE ANYBODY TO THE CAMPUS THAT BELIEVES THAT THE EARTH IS FLAT AND I'M NOT GOING TO INVITE ANYBODY TO THE CAMPUS WHO BELIEVES THERE'S A RACIAL HIERARCHY THAT DAY USE ALL THIS B BAD SCIENCE TO PROVE SO THEY CAN ESTABLISH THEMSELVES AS THE DOMINANT RACE.

WE DON'T HAVE TO ENTERTAIN BIAS ANYMORE, RACIALIZED BIAS ANYMORE.

THAT ERA IS OVER.

IF WE ACTUALLY WANT TO USE LOGIC AND SCIENCE, THAT WE WANT EVERYBODY WHO HAS A PET THEORY ABOUT THE FLAT EARTH TO RUN OUR SCIENCE DEPARTMENTS, GO AT IT, BUT THE QUALITY SCHOOLS AND THE HIGH-CALIBER STUDENTS WE HAVE KNOW NOT TO LET, YOU KNOW, ACADEMIA BE POISONED OR CONTINUE TO BE POISONED BY RACISM, WHITE SUPREMACY AND PARTICULARLY RACIALIZED BIAS.

BUT SOME OF THESE STUDENTS WANT TO HEAR FROM THESE PEOPLE AND YOU HAVE TO ASSUME --

THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO HEAR FROM THEM.

DOES THE COLLEGE HAVE THE OBLIGATION TO ATTACH THE COLLEGE'S NAME TO A FLAT-EARTH THEORY?

THERE'S A FLAT-EARTH SOCIETY OUTSIDE THE CAMPUS.

THEY CAN EASILY JOIN, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO SPEAK IN OUR AUDITORIUMS AND OUR HALLS TO PUSH WHAT WE KNOW IS NOT EVIDENCE-BASED STUFF.

WE WANT EVIDENCE.

THAT'S HOW YOU HAVE A CRITICAL MIND, HOW YOU SEEK AND SUPPORT EVIDENCE, HOW YOU -- YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE'S OPINIONS TO BE PARADED AS FACTS AND THEN TALK TO STUDENTS.

THEN YOU FAILED AS AN EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION.

PROFESSOR, ARE THERE SOME PEOPLE WHO DESERVE TO BE CANCELED?

I MEAN, IS THERE SOME ELEMENT OF JUSTICE TO IT THAT, PERHAPS, ISN'T AVAILABLE THROUGH OTHER MEANS, LIKE THINGS THAT FALL IN THAT GRAY AREA WHERE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE BEHAVIOR DOESN'T RISE TO A LEVEL OF A LEGAL SANCTION FOR WHATEVER REASON, BUT, YOU KNOW, SOCIAL SANCTION IS WARRANTED?

ANYBODY DESERVE TO BE CANCELED, IN YOUR VIEW?

YEAH, OF COURSE THERE'S MESSED UP PEOPLE IN THE WORLD AND PEOPLE I'D RATHER NOT HAVE IN MY COMPANY OR IN MY SCHOOL OR IN MY CHURCH OR WHATEVER, BUT THAT'S NOT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE.

MOST CANCELATIONS ARE DONE HORIZONTALLY FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE SAME POWER YOU HAVE, ARE NOT CRIMINALS TRYING TO REALLY GO OUT AND HURT PEOPLE.

THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO BE THEMSELVES.

AND SO, YES, SOME PEOPLE PROBABLY NEED A DIFFERENT SOLUTION THAN A WONDERFUL -- DID YOU READ WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THAT OR, I BEG YOUR PARDON, THAT DIDN'T LAND ON ME TOO WELL.

I MEAN, WE CAN USE SENTENCES OF INVITATION TO ASK PEOPLE TO TELL US MORE INSTEAD OF ASSUMING THE WORST ABOUT THEM AND GOING INTO A QUICK CANCELATION.

BUT, YES, OF COURSE, WE HAVE MISCREANTS THAT DO HARM TO PEOPLE.

REAL PHYSICAL CRIMINAL HARM TO PEOPLE THAT WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF APPROPRIATELY.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IN THE CANCEL CULTURE.

I'M TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE REALLY PUNISHING PEOPLE OFTEN FOR WHAT THEY THINK, WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE, WHAT THEY SAY AND REALLY NOT SHOWING ANY KIND OF CONTEXT OR NUANCE OR MAKING THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY BUT DOING IT WITH ANGER AND PUNISHMENT INSTEAD OF LOVE AND FORGIVENESS.

WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THE WORD OF THE USE, 'SAFETY,' AS A WAY TO INITIATE CANCELATION OF PEOPLE?

BECAUSE WHAT YOU HEAR TODAY IS PEOPLE WILL SAY, THIS PERSON'S WORDS MAKE ME FEEL UNSAFE.

AND WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHT ABOUT THAT?

WELL, AS PART OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE ANTI-VIOLENCE MOVEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY, I THINK WE STARTED THAT MESS BECAUSE WE OVERPROMISED PEOPLE WHO HAD EXPERIENCED SEXUAL AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SAFETY BECAUSE WE WANTED TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO TELL THEIR STORIES OFTEN FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIVES AND WE WOULD HOLD THEIR STORIES IN A SAFE SPACE.

SINCE THE 1970s, NOW SAFETY CAN BE ATTACHED TO JUST NEAR DISCOMFORT.

I DON'T LIKE THAT WORD YOU USED, YOU MADE ME FEEL UNSAFE.

I DON'T LIKE THE FACT YOU GOT MY PRONOUN WRONG, YOU MAKE ME FEEL UNSAFE.

OH, I DON'T LIKE THAT YOU'RE EATING MEAT IN MY PRESENCE, YOU MAKE ME FEEL UNSAFE.

IT'S COME TO A LUDICROUS LEVEL.

AND TO WHERE IT'S ALMOST LIKE WE'RE GROWING UP EXPECTING THE WORLD TO CATER TO OUR HIGHLY INDIVIDUALIZED NEEDS FOR SAFETY AND IN A WAY WE'RE NOT DEVELOPING STAMINA OR RESILIENCE TO DEAL WITH THE WORLD AS IT IS INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MAKE IT THE WAY WE'LL BE MOST COMFORTABLE AND SAFE.

EXCEPT IT DOES BEGIN WITH WORDS.

I'M THINKING OF MOST VIOLENCE DOES BEGIN -- PARTICULARLY BEGINS WITH WORDS.

IN FACT, INTERPERSONAL VIOLENCE OFTEN BEGINS WITH WORDS.

WI DON'T THINK YOU HEARD ME SAY ANYTHING THAT WORDS DON'T HAVE CONSEQUENCES.

I THINK WORDS WOUND.

SO I'M NOT A PERSON IN -- THAT I BELIEVE THAT ALL WORDS DON'T HAVE CONSEQUENCES.

I THINK WORDS HAVE SEVERE CONSEQUENCES WHICH IS WHY PEOPLE SHOULD BE MADE ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY, BUT I'M STILL SAYING IT CAN BE DONE WITH RESPECT TO LOVE INSTEAD OF PUNISHMENT.

IN MOST INSTANCES, YES, IF YOU'RE CALLING FOR THE MASSACRE OF PEOPLE, IF YOU'RE CALLING FOR THE EXCOMMUNICATION OF PEOPLE OR SOMEONE LOSES THEIR JOB BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T LIKE THEIR OPINION, YOU HAVE TO RETHINK THAT OUT BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR WORDS JUST LIKE YOU EXPECT THEM TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR WORDS.

WE ARE IN A STRUGGLE TO PROTECT THIS DEMOCRACY THAT'S STILL EMERGING.

WE ARE IN A FIGHT OF OUR LIVES.

WE'RE IN THE GREATEST HUMAN RIGHTS STRUGGLE RIGHT NOW THERE'S EVER BEEN, SO WORDS DO HAVE CONSEQUENCES, WHETHER YOU'RE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS OR WHETHER YOU'RE AGAINST THEM.

WHETHER YOU BELIEVE PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY WHAT THEY NEED TO SAY, WHICH I DO, BUT I ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY, WHICH I ALSO DO.

AND WHAT ARE PEOPLE WHO TRULY HAVE BEEN HARMED BY OTHERS' BEHAVIOR, WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO GIVE FULL HONOR TO YOUR OWN STORY, BUT YOU, YOURSELF, HAVE BEEN A SURVIVOR OF GREAT HARM, OF GREAT TRANSGRESSION.

YOU ARE A SURVIVOR OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE, INCEST, AND THANKFULLY HAVE LIVED TO LIVE AND THRIVE AND, YET, YOU KNOW, A GREAT HARM HAS BEEN DONE TO YOU AND TO MANY OTHER PEOPLE.

DO YOU HAVE THOUGHTS ABOUT HOW, AND IN PART NOW PART OF WHAT'S OCCURRING IS PEOPLE ARE SEEKING REDRESS FOR GREAT HARMS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE TO THEM.

SOMETIMES IN WAYS THAT OTHER PEOPLE DON'T AGREE WITH BUT NEVERTHELESS, HARMS HAVE BEEN DONE.

AND I JUST WONDERED IF YOU HAVE SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT.

WELL, HURT PEOPLE DO HURT PEOPLE.

SO A LOT OF WHAT WE SEE AS HARM IS SEEN THROUGH A TRAUMA-INFORMED LENS.

I'M, OF COURSE, A RAPE AND INCEST SURVIVOR.

NOT ONLY DID I SUFFER INCEST AT THE HANDS OF MY COUSIN, BUT I ENDED UP PARENTING HIS CHILD FOR 47 YEARS.

BEING A CO-PARENT WITH YOUR OWN RAPIST IS NOT THE WAY YOU WANT TO BECOME A MOTHER.

SO I DID OVERREACT SOMETIMES EVERY TIME I FEEL THAT SOMEONE IS TRYING TO DOMINATE ME OR INTIMIDATE ME OR SHUT ME DOWN OR MAKE ME FEEL AS HELPLESS AS I WAS AT 14.

OR I CAN PUT THOSE EMOTIONS OF THAT 14-YEAR-OLD BACK BEHIND THAT GLASS WALL OF MEMORY AND SEPARATE IT FROM THE PRESENT.

I CAN DO THAT, ACTUALLY, WITH THERAPY, THAT'S HOW I LEARNED HOW TO DO IT.

IT WASN'T AUTOMATIC.

BUT I REALLY DO THINK THAT WE DON'T HEAL IF WE WON'T ALLOW OURSELVES TO HEAL.

A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BUILT SUCH A HARDENED IDENTITY AROUND BEING A VICTIM, THEY DON'T WANT TO LET IT GO AT ANY COST.

AND I REALLY WANT TO ASK THEM HOW WELL THAT'S WORKING FOR THEM BECAUSE A VICTIM BY DEFINITION IS A TOTALLY DISEMPOWERED POSITION TO BE IN.

SO YOU'RE GIVING AWAY YOUR OWN POWER BECAUSE YOU -- YOU KNOW, YOU CONSOLE YOURSELF BY SAYING, I'M A VICTIM AND EVERYTHING THAT I DISLIKE REVICTIMIZES ME.

HOW THAT WORKS FOR PEOPLE.

SO I REALLY TRY TO SAY THAT WE CAN BE MORE FORGIVING TO EACH OTHER.

EVEN AS A RAPE SURVIVOR, I TAUGHT THIS THEORY TO BLACK MEN IN PRISONS WHO HAVE RAPED AND MURDERED WOMEN AND THAT'S WHEN I WAS IN MY 20s.

SO I'M ALWAYS GOING TO ASK THE QUESTION, WHY DID WE HAVE BETTER FORGIVENESS PRACTICES IN THE 1970s THAN I'VE SEEN IN THE 21st CENTURY?

PROFESSOR LORETTA ROSS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

I DO HOPE TO TALK AGAIN.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW.

SO DO I.