Bob Bauer and Evelyn Farkas Discuss Sondland’s Testimony

SO IN YOUR -- IN YOUR MIND AS A LOCAL SCHOLAR, BOB BAUER, DID WHAT WE HEARD TODAY ON CAPITOL HILL RISE TO THE LEVEL OF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS?

IS IT IN YOUR VIEW ENOUGH EVIDENCE OR GROUNDS TO BRING ANY ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT?

YES, I THINK IT CERTAINLY IS.

I MEAN, IT GOES TO THE HEART OF THE CONCERN BEHIND THE IMPEACHMENT CLAUSE, CORE CONCERN OF THE IMPEACHMENT CLAUSE WHICH IS ABUSE OF POWER, EGREGIOUS ABUSE OF POWER THAT PUTS THE COUNTRY POTENTIALLY AT RISK AND REQUIRES A PRESIDENT TO BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE, AND IT CAN BE FRAMED A VARIETY OF WAYS BECAUSE YOU KNOW THE DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP HAS SPOKEN A GOD BIT ABOUT BRIBERY AND CERTAINLY THAT IS ONE OF THE COUNTS THAT COULD IN FACT APPEAR IN THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT, BUT THE OVERALL THRUST OF THE IMPEACHMENT CLAUSE IS TO ADDRESS EGREGIOUS ABUSES OF POWER AND IN PARTICULAR THE FOUNDERS WERE CONCERNED ABOUT BEHAVIOR BY A PRESIDENT THAT WOULD EXPOSE THE UNITED STATES AND NATIONAL SECURITY OR FOREIGN POLICY RISK, INVITING FOREIGN INTERFERENCE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN DOMESTIC AMERICAN AFFAIRS, AND THAT IS WHAT GORDON SONDLAND AND OTHER WITNESSES THIS WEEK HAVE BEEN TESTIFYING ABOUT.

LET ME ASK YOU, EVELYN FARKAS.

YOU WERE AT THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA WHEN THE INITIAL SERIES OF INVESTIGATIONS INTO UKRAINIAN CORRUPTION WERE LED BY VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN.

YOU HAVE HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP SAY THAT -- THAT -- THAT HE WAS QUOTED BY SOME OF THE WITNESSES SAYING THAT I THINK THAT THEY ARE ALL BAD.

THEY ARE ALL CORRUPT.

HE WAS REFERRING TO UKRAINIANS.

SOME OF THESE WITNESSES HAVE TESTIFIED THAT THEY TRIED TO SHIFT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S VIEW ABOUT UKRAINE.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION'S ANTI-CORRUPTION DRIVE IN UKRAINE.

RIGHT.

I THINK THE THING WE NEED TO REMEMBER IS THE BAD ONE AFFILIATED WITH RUSSIA AND THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE ESSENTIALLY MOVED HIM OUT OF OFFICE AND THEN HE FLED THE COUNTRY.

THEN WAS THE INTERIM PRESIDENT, AND THAT WAS THE ONE THAT I WAS DEALING WITH, PRESIDENT POROSHENKO WHO WAS AN OLIGARCH, WHO WAS KIND OF TRYING TO REFORM BUT HE WASN'T THERE, AND SO PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS THE GUY ESSENTIALLY WHEN WAS CALLING HIM ON PHONE SAYING, HEY, YOU HAVE TO ROOT OUT THE CORRUPTION, THE PROSECUTORS BEING SLOW ON THE UPTAKE.

ALL OF THE THINGS WE ALREADY COVERED FOR WEEKS PRIOR TO THIS IN THE MEDIA, AND THEN THE LAST ONE, OF COURSE, IS THE CURRENT ONE, THE ONE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS TRYING TO STRONG ARM AND GET A BRIBE FROM THEM AND THAT'S YOUNG REFORM-MINED NEW PRESIDENT WHO HAS A FULL OUT MAJORITY OF THE PARLIAMENT AND A MANDATE ESSENTIALLY TO CLEAR OUT CORRUPTION.

HE'S REALLY THE FIRST NEW MODERN ANTI-CORRUPTION PRESIDENT IN UKRAINE.