Daryl Davis on Befriending Members of the KKK

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Turning now to an African-American musician, Daryl Davis, who’s played with some of the leading stars of our time, including Jerry Lee Lewis and Chuck Berry. But Davis has also spent the past 30 years engaging in something quite remarkable, meeting and, in some cases, befriending members of the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist groups. Surprised? Well, Daryl Davis says he’s managed to help more than 200 KKK members to renounce their ideology. And our Hari Sreenivasan talks with him about being featured in a new documentary called “Accidental Courtesy” and about his book “Klan-destine Relationships.”

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARI SREENIVASAN: Daryl Davis, you have been a man who has reached out to members of the KKK for the past 30 years. Why?

DARYL DAVIS, MUSICIAN: Well, they’re a part of America just as well as I am. They’re as much a part American as baseball, apple pie and Chevrolet. And they have been around since 1865, about 150 years. Why are they still here in the 21st century? This needs to be addressed. We need to come together. We’re too divided right now. And as we evolve, we cannot afford to become more and more divided as our country becomes more and more diverse.

SREENIVASAN: So what do you do with that when you meet someone from the Klan?

DAVIS: We have the conversation. We have civil discourse. I’m there to hear what their concerns are, what their fears are, what myths have set them off, and hopefully to dispel some of those fears.

SREENIVASAN: Is your goal to try to get them to leave the Klan?

DAVIS: My goal was never to convert them. A lot of the media says, oh, black musician converts X-number of Klansmen. I never converted one. But over 200 have left that — the white supremacy movements, because I have been the impetus for that. I give them information. They think about it, they process it, and they come to their own decision, I need to change my way of thinking here. So I have been responsible for that, yes. But I don’t like to say that I converted them. They converted themselves. I’m just the conduit to lead them in that direction.

SREENIVASAN: This all started, what, in a country bar 30 years ago?

DAVIS: Right. Exactly. Exactly.

SREENIVASAN: After a music gig?

DAVIS: Yes.

SREENIVASAN: You were playing the piano. And then what?

DAVIS: I was — I joined a country band. I was the only black guy in the band, and usually the only black person where we would play. And this particular bar was known as an all-white bar, not meaning that blacks could not go in, but blacks did not go in by their own choice. And it was a good choice, because they were not welcome. And I came off the bandstand with the band, and I was following them to the table on a break. And I felt somebody put their arm around my shoulder. And this white gentleman said to me: “Man, I sure like your piano playing. This is the first time I ever heard a black man play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis.” Now, I was kind of taken aback. I was not offended. But I was surprised, because this guy was 15, 18 years older than me. And he didn’t know the black origin of Jerry Lee Lewis’s style of piano playing? And I said: “Well, where do you think Jerry Lee Lewis learned how to play?” He says: “What are you talking about?” I said: “He learned from the same place I did, from black, blues and boogie-woogie piano players. That’s where rockabilly and rock ‘n’ roll came from.” “Oh, no, no, no, I never heard no black man play like that, except for you.” I said: “Look, man, I know Jerry Lee Lewis. He’s a good friend of mine. He’s told me himself where he learned how to play.” The guy didn’t buy that I knew Jerry Lee. He didn’t buy that Jerry Lee learned it from black people. But he was fascinated and wanted to buy me a drink. And I went back to his table. I had a cranberry juice. And he took his glass, and he clinks my glass. And he cheers me. And he says: “You know, this is the first time I ever sat down and had a drink with a black man.” Now, he’s making some kind of proclamation. I’m looking at this guy. I was in total disbelief. I said: “Why?” And, at first, he didn’t answer me. I asked him again. And his friend said: “Tell him, tell him, tell him.” I said: “Tell me.” And he looked at me. He said: “I’m a member of the Ku Klux Klan.” I burst out laughing, because I did not believe him. I thought, this guy’s joking, man, because I know a lot about the Klan. They don’t come around, put their arm around your shoulder and want to buy you a drink and hang out with you, if you’re black, you know? So I’m laughing at him. I’m going to go along with this joke. He goes inside his pocket, pulls out his wallet, and gave me his Klan membership card. I looked at it. Ooh, this is for real. I stopped laughing and I gave it back to him. And we talked about the Klan and some other things. But that was the start of my quest. I’d had a racist experience as a child at age 10, where people had thrown rocks at me and bottles. I didn’t understand. And all it was, was because of the color of my skin, nothing I had done, nothing I had said. And so I had formed that question in my mind, how can you hate me when you don’t even know me? And I have been looking for the answer. And so, after meeting this guy, it didn’t dawn on me that night, but later, it dawned on me, Daryl, the answer fell right into your lap. Who better to ask that question of than someone who would go so far as to join an organization that has over a hundred-year history of practicing hating people who do not look like them and who do not believe as they believe? Go back to that guy and get the answer.

SREENIVASAN: So you went back, you found him?

DAVIS: Yes, he had given — no, he had given me his number and stuff.

SREENIVASAN: Yes?

DAVIS: And I went back. And I went back to him and I said, you know what? I’m going to go around the country and interview members and leaders and ask that question and write a book on it.

SREENIVASAN: You also go out of your way to say that, after these conversations, you are their friend.

DAVIS: That’s right.

SREENIVASAN: Even if they might not be yours.

DAVIS: That’s right.

SREENIVASAN: Why? Why put them into that category?

DAVIS: Because I try to elicit the good in everybody. At the end of the day, we all are human beings. And I prove that I am their friend. They don’t have anything to fear from me. And they realize that later on, which is why, at the end, when they finally come to that conclusion, even leaders, as well as rank-and-file members all the way to the top, grand dragons, which are state leaders, imperial wizards, which are national leaders, end up giving me their robes and hoods. This is a Klan hood from an imperial wizard. That’s the hood. That’s the mask. Members who want anonymity, they wear this mask, and people chew through these eyelets. If they don’t care that their identity is exposed, the mask is attached by three snaps. Just detach it, and the face is exposed under the hood. And here is the corresponding robe. This is the robe of an imperial wizard.

SREENIVASAN: Just seeing that is going to draw some viewers to just possibly turn the interview off. It is going to trigger them, a sense of fear, a sense of sadness, hatred. Lots of things are rolled up just in that tiny robe.

DAVIS: But, see, that’s what we — we need to overcome. This is nothing but a piece of material, all right? Yes, it invokes fear, because we allow ourselves to be afraid of this piece of material. There are people who wear a shirt and tie, a suit, a uniform with a badge and a gun, a judge’s robe, a Hawaiian shirt and Bermuda shorts who feel the exact same way as somebody wearing this robe and hood.

SREENIVASAN: But at least I know exactly where that person is coming from.

DAVIS: Precisely. I have been doing this for 30 years. And I have seen them in their regular street clothes. And then I have seen them don their robes and hoods, and all of a sudden they feel powerful, OK? It’s like a Clark Kent mild- mannered reporter becomes Superman, all right? I have seen that transformation.

SREENIVASAN: Because racism, in itself, doesn’t pay the bills.

DAVIS: Precisely.

SREENIVASAN: They have to have steady jobs.

DAVIS: That’s right.

SREENIVASAN: They are members of our society.

DAVIS: That’s right. And guess what? They’re teachers. They — they’re on the school board. They work at the grocery store. Some of them are even on the police department. I have a former Baltimore City police officer’s uniform and his robe and hood. He was the grand dragon, which means state leader. His day job, what paid his bills, he was a Baltimore City police officer, not an undercover officer in the Klan gathering intelligence, but a bona fide Klansmen on the Baltimore City police force. And there — there are more. OK? Now, he went on to become my best friend, one of my best friends.

SREENIVASAN: How?

DAVIS: And, today, I own his robe and hood and his police uniform. He gave up that ideology as a result of civil discourse, talking with one another, getting to know one another, getting that exposure that you don’t have.

SREENIVASAN: In the film about you, it shows a scene, for example, when you talk to different types of groups, the SPLC, the Southern Poverty Law Center. The individual there says, you know, our goal is to wipe out groups like this. And I’m sure you have heard this critique from other members of the civil rights community. What you’re doing isn’t really helping us. You know, what this person says to you and their process of befriending you over time, well, that’s not destroying this group. That’s not destroying the ideology. That’s not taking the hate out of the system. That’s not injustice out of the system. Is this a great use of your time?

DAVIS: It is absolutely a great use of my time. And what the SPLC does is, they — yes, they — the man said he wanted to destroy the Klan. I’m not out to destroy individuals. I’d like to see them destroy their own ideology, which is what this guy did when he gave up that robe. When you seek to destroy somebody, all you do is empower them, because they feel like, you see? They don’t want us to have our rights to feel the way we want to feel. And they get more and more emboldened and more and more empowered. Now, this — now, if they cross the line and do something wrong, you absolutely take them to court and you sue them, you put them in jail, you punish them. But you don’t destroy the person. These are my fellow Americans. These are my fellow human beings. I want them to see something and come to the realization that, you know what, this is a better path for me, and I’m going to help get other people out there. And I have a lot of neo-Nazis — former neo-Nazis and KKK members and alt- right members who come out with me sometimes and speak out against their former organization and work hard to pull others out and prevent others from joining.

SREENIVASAN: There’s also a scene in the film, a very tense one. It starts as a conversation with young Black Lives Matters leaders in Baltimore.

DAVIS: Yes.

SREENIVASAN: And they — and it gets heated very quickly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, stop wasting your time going into people’s houses that don’t love you, a house where they want to throw you under the basement.

DAVIS: So you believe that nobody can change?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you — I believe you believe the wrong people can change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SREENIVASAN: And I know the conversation lasted an hour in real life, but, in these eight minutes, you can see the tension. It’s palpable. And they’re saying, you know what? While you were out doing this over your 30 years, befriending a few dozen people and getting their robes, we are here suffering the injustices that are — why aren’t you doing that for this city? Why aren’t you spending your time in this way, where you could be making real impact on the lives of all of those people that you want to help?

DAVIS: If I were to open up a magazine, or go on the Internet, and see a picture of a black man shaking hands with a man in a robe and a hood, like you see tons of pictures of me on the Internet like that, I would have a visceral reaction, like, what’s going on here? Why…

SREENIVASAN: This guy sold out.

DAVIS: Yes. Yes. But, knowing me, I would want to read the backstory to find out, why is this taking place? Oh, OK. I get it. Well, yes, that’s pretty cool. I understand what’s happening now. But all too often, some people don’t read the backstory and jump to a conclusion, and that’s where it stays. And the anger and anxiety and venom and animus comes out.

SREENIVASAN: They think you’re a traitor to black people?

DAVIS: Exactly. Exactly. And that’s what happened there. But on the upside of that, about a year later, those same people reached out to me, and we got together, we had dinner, and we talked. And, today, we work together for the same goal. They continue doing what they’re doing, and they now understand what I’m doing and support me.

SREENIVASAN: Do these friends of yours, do the organizations, do these different chapters of the KKK, have they been emboldened in the last couple of years?

DAVIS: Oh, absolutely. They have definitely been emboldened. And so you see a lot of them acting out not even wearing the masks on their face, because they feel now they have carte blanche. Now, one thing I want to point out, there has been a slight rise. And people think, where do all these racists come from? They’re increasing. They’re not increasing that much. They have always been here. You just didn’t see them, but they have always been here. There’s a slight increase in them, but more so an increase in racist incidents, because of that emboldened — there more hate crimes, more people pinning swastikas on synagogues or KKK on somebody’s car or just acting out. But another thing that is happening that a lot of people don’t talk about is the shift that’s going to occur in 2042, all right?

SREENIVASAN: The demographic shift.

DAVIS: Exactly. This country was built on two — it was a two-tiered society, white supremacy and slavery. And as it progressed, it did not progress like this. It progressed like this, all right? These people are not coming down and helping these people up. And when these people try to get up, they step on their heads, push them back down. But now, with miscegenation, different people coming in from different countries, et cetera, the majority is coming down, and the minority is moving up. And by 2042, for the first time in history, this country will be 50/50. And while a lot of people, white and otherwise, embrace that, because that’s evolution, there are a lot of people who do not embrace it. And they become very disconcerted. And now they’re acting out. So, what happens is, they join these groups, because the groups step up their recruitment efforts. Hey, come join us. And we will take our country back. We’re going to build that wall. We are going to do all this and get rid of these illegal immigrants, blah, blah, blah. Well, people go and join these groups, because they’re fearing this. And when they join the group, and nothing happens, then they say, you know what, if the Klan can’t do it, or the NSM can’t do it, whoever, I will do it myself. And then they walk into a black church, or into a synagogue, or into El Paso, Texas, boom, boom, boom, boom. These are called lone wolves. And as we get closer and closer to 2042, which is only 23 years from now, unfortunately, we’re going to see more and more lone wolves.

SREENIVASAN: When you saw those kids marching with tiki torches in Charlottesville, what when through your mind?

DAVIS: It didn’t surprise me. It didn’t surprise me at all, because we refuse to address these things. We need to be more proactive in this country, and not reactive. And had we addressed racism like we should have decades ago, we wouldn’t be where we are today.

SREENIVASAN: You also sat down with some of the people who were at the Charlotte protests?

DAVIS: Oh, yes, I knew them very well.

SREENIVASAN: And what was that like? What was that dinner like?

DAVIS: It was fine. I had dinner, talked. Richard Spencer, Jason Kessler, Jeff Schoep. In fact, Jeff Schoep, who was — who was the head…

SREENIVASAN: Of the National Socialist Movement.

DAVIS: Exactly. He’s a very good friend of mine now. And he was — he was in the movie with me on the other side of the fence, right? Now, he and I are going out together to give lectures.

SREENIVASAN: About?

DAVIS: About de-radicalizing. He’s no longer the head of the National Socialists. He gave it up. He has renounced it. And now he’s working hard to de-radicalize people who are in those movements and prevent other ones from joining.

SREENIVASAN: As successful as you have been at having an impact on these different people, you have to run into folks that you realize, this person is not open, not ready to hear me.

DAVIS: Absolutely. We have to accept that there will be people on all sides who will never change. They will go to their grave being hateful, violent and racist. There is no changing them. OK? You don’t give up. But you focus more of your efforts on those who are willing to sit down and talk, even though they may feel the same way. If somebody is willing to sit down and talk with you, regardless of how extreme they are, there’s an opportunity to plant a seed. That seed might not bloom tomorrow, but at least it’s planted. And if you keep nurturing it, it’s going to — it’s going to begin to grow.

SREENIVASAN: How do you stay eternally optimistic?

DAVIS: I saw the future when I was a kid. I’m 61 years of age. But I was a child of parents in the U.S. Foreign Service. And starting in 1961, every two years, we lived in a different country. I lived in Africa. I lived in Europe.

SREENIVASAN: So, you got along with different kids from different places, all walks of life?

DAVIS: Exactly. In the 1960s, when I was in class overseas, my classroom in elementary school was filled with kids from Nigeria, Italy, Japan, Iran, Russia, Japan, Germany, OK? We all got along. But when I would come home, after my dad’s two-year assignment, back home here to my own country, I was either in all-black schools or black and white schools, depending upon whether I was in the still segregated school or the newly integrated school. And there was not the amount of diversity in the classroom that I had overseas or that we have today. So, I was already prepared for multiculturalism when it finally got here. Unfortunately, many of my peers were not. So, we all got along as little kids. That was the future. So, I know it can work. That’s why I’m optimistic.

SREENIVASAN: Daryl Davis, thanks so much for joining us.

DAVIS: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.