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>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.
SYRIANS CELEBRATE A NEW ERA AND SEEK JUSTICE FOR THE HORRORS OF THE PAST.
I SPEAK TO FORMER U.S. WAR CRIMES OFFICIAL STEPHEN RAPP ABOUT THE HARD WORK OF HOLDING THE ASSAD REGIME TO ACCOUNT.
>>> AND -- >> ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE, SIX, SEVEN.
I SEE MY DAD.
>> "DAUGHTERS," A HEART-WRENCHING LOOK AT THE YOUNG LIVES TOUCHED BY INCARCERATION IN AMERICA.
>> THEN -- >> WE ARE JUST NOT READY AS A SOCIETY FOR THE IMPLICATIONS THIS HAVE POWERFUL ARRIVAL OF INTELLIGENCE.
>> GOOGLE'S FORMER CEO ERIC SCHMIDT TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE PROMISE AND THE PERIL OF AI.
>>> PLUS -- >> WE HAVE FEARS AS SYRIANS ALL THE TIME ABOUT OUR STORY WILL NOT BE TOLD IN OUR VOICES.
>> WE LOOK BACK AT CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH A SYRIAN FILMMAKER WHO DOCUMENTED ASSAD'S SIEGE OF ALEPPO WITH HER BABY GIRL BY HER SIDE.
♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.
THE SYRIAN PEOPLE ARE STILL CELEBRATING WHAT SO MANY NEVER THOUGHT POSSIBLE, A COUNTRY FREE OF BASHAR AL ASSAD.
BUT AMID THE JOY THERE IS MUCH UNCERTAINTY ABOUT WHAT LIES AHEAD AND ALSO DEEP PAIN AS THE HEINOUS ATROCITIES FROM THE PAST DECADES ARE COMING MORE AND MORE TO LIGHT.
OUR FIRST GUEST TONIGHT HAS BEEN LASER FOCUSED ON BRINGING ASSAD TO JUSTICE FOR YEARS, GATHERING AND DOCUMENTING ALL OF THE GRUESOME EVIDENCE POSSIBLE.
WHO COULD FORGET THE HARROWING IMAGES WE SAW DURING THE WAR, SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS BOMBED, CHEMICAL WEAPONS USED ON CIVILIANS.
STEPHEN RAPP WHO WAS THE LEADING U.S. OFFICIAL ON WAR CRIMES SAYS HE WANTS TO SEE THE BRUTAL DICTATOR FACE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE DETENTION, TORTURE AND MURDER OF TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SYRIANS.
RAPP CURRENTLY SERVED AS DISTINGUISHED FELLOW AT THE HOLOCAUST CENTER FOR PREVENTION OF GENOCIDE AND WE WELCOME HIM TO THE PROGRAM FROM WASHINGTON.
GOOD TO SEE.
>> YOU GOOD TO BE HERE.
>> YOU ARE A FORMER AMBASSADOR-AT-LARGE FOR GLOBAL JUSTICE, YOU SPENT YEARS FOCUSED ON SYRIA, SPECIFICALLY, AND THE DOCUMENTED WAR CRIMES THERE.
JUST FIRST FROM A PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE, YOUR REACTION TO THE SHOCKING NEWS WE'VE SEEN OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST TWO WEEKS, THE FALL OF THE ASSAD REGIME.
>> WELL, FRANKLY FOR ME IT'S A MOMENT OF EXHILARATION, A MOMENT THAT WE NEVER THOUGHT WOULD COME AND MY HEART IS WITH SYRIANS AS THEY STAND UP AS FREE SYRIANS AS THEY WERE TODAY IN PRAYER SERVICES ACROSS -- ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BUT, OF COURSE, SADDENED, SO ENORMOUSLY SADDENED, BY THE LOSS OF MORE THAN A HALF MILLION PEOPLE, AT LEAST 100,000 OF THEM TORTURED TO DEATH AND IN THIS MACHINERY OF DEATH, OF DISAPPEARANCE, OF DETENTION, OF TORTURE AND MURDER.
PEOPLE LIKE MY GOOD FRIEND WHO WAS TWICE IN THIS SYSTEM TORTURED DAY AFTER DAY, YEAR AFTER YEAR.
CAME OUT TO THE WEST FOR A PERIOD AND THEN WAS LURED BACK IN AND ONLY DIED IN THE LAST WEEK BEFORE THE FALL OF DAMASCUS.
THOSE VICTIMS CRY OUT FOR JUSTICE AND FAIR JUSTICE AND JUSTICE THAT ALLOWS THE TRUTH TO BE TOLD IS WHAT SYRIANS BADLY NEED, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE A PROCESS LED BY THEM AND FOR THEM.
>> YOU MENTIONED MASAN, WE WANT TO TELL OUR VIEWERS A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT HIM.
HE WAS A 47-YEAR-OLD ACTIVIST, TORTURED IN THE REGIME'S BRUTAL PRISON SYSTEM, ESCAPED TO EUROPE IN 2014.
HE TOLD HIS STORY TO THE WORLD, I MEAN, SO MUCH DETAIL THAT WAS UNKNOWN TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD IN LARGE PART CAME FROM HIM.
HE RETURNED TO SYRIA IN 2020 ONLY TO BE INCARCERATED.
YOU SPENT HOURS WITH HIM AND GETTING HIS TESTIMONY ON THE TORTURE AND ON TUESDAY HIS RELATIVES SADLY IDENTIFIED HIS BODY.
FIRST, WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED TO HIM AND CAN YOU GIVE US ANY MORE DETAIL ON THE EVIDENCE ON WHAT HE TOLD YOU?
>> WELL, I MEAN, HE TOLD US ONE STORY, BUT SUCH A HUMAN STORY, BUT A STORY EXPERIENCED BY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER SYRIANS OF DARING TO HOPE BACK IN 2011 THAT HIS COUNTRY COULD BE A NORMAL COUNTRY.
THAT THEY COULD GO TO WORK, SCHOOL, YOU KNOW, ENJOY THEIR LIVES, PARTICIPATE IN GOVERNING THEIR COUNTRY INSTEAD OF HAVING THIS SYSTEM OF TERROR THAT HAD BEEN IMPOSED ON THEM FOR MORE THAN A HALF A CENTURY.
DARING TO DO THAT AND THEN HELPING OTHERS AND PROVIDING HUMANITARIAN RELIEF IN AREAS THAT WERE BESIEGED, BROUGHT HIM INTO CUSTODY IN SITUATIONS WHERE HE WHO NEVER CARRIED A WEAPON, I MEAN, HE WAS ASKED DO YOU CARRY A WEAPON AND HE SAID, YES, A TOSHIBA, HE TOOK PICTURES.
HE DESCRIBES THEM RAKING HIS RIBS, POP, POP, POP AS THEY CRUSH EACH OF HIS RIBS.
DESCRIBED HORRIBLE THINGS THEY DO WITH TORTURE INSTRUMENTS TO VARIOUS PARTS OF HIS BODY THAT I CAN'T EVEN REPEAT HERE AND WENT THROUGH THAT PROCESS.
FORTUNATELY, YOU KNOW, WAS RELEASED, ESCAPED TO EUROPE.
I REMEMBER TALKING TO HIM THE FIRST TIME IN 2014 IN THE NETHERLANDS AND SAYING HOW DO THESE IMMIGRATION OFFICERS GREET YOU AFTER YOUR CONVERSATION AND YOU TOLD THEM YOUR WHOLE STORY, BECAUSE THEY ARE PRETTY TOUGH CUSTOMERS.
THEY ARE USED TO HEARING LOTS OF DIFFERENT STORIES.
HE SAID THEY BROKE DOWN WEEPING, AS ALL OF US DID.
THE TRAGEDY IS THAT THEY LURED HIM BACK, CONVINCED HIM THAT HE ALONE COULD PLAY A ROLE IN THE FREEDOM OF OTHERS AND DESPITE ALL OF US SAYING, DON'T GO, HE WENT BACK AND WAS IMMEDIATELY THEN IN CUSTODY.
BUT THE MOST SHOCKING THING IS THAT HE SURVIVED ANOTHER FOUR AND A HALF YEARS OF TORTURE AND WAS ONLY KILLED IN THE LAST HOURS BEFORE THE OVERTHROW OF ASSAD.
I THINK IT ALSO TELLS US HOW SERIOUS THESE PERPETRATORS ARE.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN A WITNESS IN THE TRIALS THAT WOULD BE COMING THAT WOULD GIVE A HUMAN VOICE TO ALL THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF DOCUMENTATION THAT WE HAVE AND I THINK IT SHOWS US THAT THIS IS A SERIOUS BUSINESS.
THAT THERE WILL BE RESISTANCE.
THERE WILL BE EFFORTS TO GET AT WITNESSES, THERE WILL BE EFFORTS TO DESTROY DOCUMENTS AND OBSTRUCT JUSTICE.
>> BY WHOM?
>> BY THOSE WHO STAND TO LOSE FROM IT, THOSE WHO CONDUCTED THIS MACHINERY OF DEATH.
IT'S AN ENORMOUS CHALLENGE.
OBVIOUSLY FUNDAMENTALLY IT SHOULD BE A PROCESS OF PROSECUTING THOSE WHO BEAR THE GREATEST RESPONSIBILITY, THE TRANSITIONAL AUTHORITIES APPROPRIATELY SAID THAT THE CONSCRIPTED, THE DRAFTED SOLDIERS SHOULD HAVE AMNESTY AND THOSE AT LOWER LEVELS SHOULD BE PROVIDED WITH AN OPPORTUNITY TO TELL THE TRUTH AND TO MAKE PEACE WITH THEIR VICTIMS, BUT THOSE WHO CONDUCTED THIS MASS MURDER, I MEAN, AT LEAST 100,000 PEOPLE TORTURED TO DEATH IN THE PRISONS.
AND THEN, OF COURSE, ALL THE OTHER WAYS IN WHICH PEOPLE WERE KILLED, AS YOU STARTED THIS REPORT, THE BOMBING OF HOSPITALS.
I MEAN, THEY BOMBED MORE HOSPITALS IN ALEPPO THAN THEY BOMBED ANY OTHER TARGET.
YOU'RE GOING TO LATER HAVE THE MOTHER OF SAMMA ON TO DISCUSS THE HORROR OF THE FALL OF ALEPPO IN 2016 AND MOVING FROM ONE HOSPITAL TO ANOTHER AND EVEN UNDERGROUND TRYING TO SAVE PEOPLE AS THIS REGIME TARGETED THEM.
AND THEN THEY USED POISON GAS BECAUSE PEOPLE LIVED UNDERGROUND, GASES LIKE CHLORINE WOULD REACH UNDERGROUND, HEAVIER THAN AIR AND OTHER GASES, POISON GAS, SARIN GAS, THE USE OF WHICH HAS BEEN BANNED FOR 99.5 YEARS NOW.
AS A RESULT OF THAT MORE THAN HALF A MILLION PEOPLE DEAD AND HALF THE POPULATION DRIVEN AWAY FROM THEIR HOMES, YOU KNOW, AND, YOU KNOW, ALLOWED INTO THE WEST IN WAYS THAT EVEN DESTABILIZED SOCIETIES IN THE WEST.
YOU KNOW, THIS HAS BEEN AN ENORMOUS CRIME, THE WORST ATROCITIES OF THE 21st CENTURY AND LIKE THE ATROCITIES OF THE 20th, THE HOLOCAUST AND THE RWANDA GENOCIDE, WE NEED COMPREHENSIVE JUSTICE.
>> AND THERE WILL BE NO DOUBT MORE EVIDENCE TO GO THROUGH NOW, THE COMMISSION FOR INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE AND ACCOUNTABILITY WHICH HAS INVESTIGATED ATROCITIES AGAINST ASSAD AND HIS REGIME AND THE ISLAMIC STATE HAS GATHERED OVER ONE MILLION PAGES OF DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE RIGHT NOW.
THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF CONCERN ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO SO MUCH OF THIS EVIDENCE IN THE NEXT -- IN THE ENSUING WEEKS, MONTHS AHEAD, AS, YES, THERE IS JUBILATION ON THE STREETS THAT THE REGIME IS NO LONGER IN POWER, BUT THERE IS STILL SOMEWHAT OF A POWER VACUUM.
YOU TALK ABOUT HTS AND THAT IS THE DOMINANT RULING AUTHORITY AT THIS MOMENT, BUT HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU ABOUT THE FACT THAT IF THINGS AREN'T STREAMLINED, IF THERE ISN'T ORDER IN PLACE IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS OR MONTHS THAT SO MUCH OF THIS EVIDENCE WILL NEVER BE SEEN OR HEARD?
>> WELL, THAT'S A HIGH PRIORITY.
I'M CHAIR OF THE GROUP YOU MENTIONED AND WE HAVE 25 SYRIANS THAT WORK WITH US THAT HAVE BEEN ON THE GROUND IN EACH OF THE AREAS THAT HAS BEEN LIBERATED DURING THE LAST TWO WEEKS.
WE'RE EVEN ADDING TO THAT STAFF.
THE KEY MESSAGE IS NOT TO DESTROY THESE DOCUMENTS, TO PRESERVE THEM, TO SECURE THEM, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S AVAILABLE IN THE VARIOUS FILES.
I MEAN, WE ESTIMATE AT LEAST 100 DOCUMENTS -- MAJOR CENTERS WHERE DOCUMENTATION ARE TO BE FOUND.
WE HAVE 1.3 MILLION PAGES OF DOCUMENTS NOW, BUT THERE ARE TEN TIMES THAT, IF NOT MORE, THAT WILL TELL US THE STORY OF HOW THESE 100,000 WERE MURDERED.
WILL TELL US THE FULL STORY OF MASAN, THAT WILL TELL US WHO LAUNCHED THE CHEMICAL ATTACKS, ET CETERA, AND WHO WAS INVOLVED IN THIS DECISION-MAKING.
THAT'S GOING TO BE ESSENTIAL.
NOW, IN TERMS OF THE HTS QUESTION, ANOTHER ORGANIZATION I'M INVOLVED IN IS THE SYRIAN EMERGENCY TASK FORCE LED BY MY GOOD FRIEND WHO IS IN SYRIA RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, DRIVING TRAVIS TIMMERMAN TO HIS RESCUE TO THE UNITED STATES, BUT ENGAGING WITH THOSE ACTORS.
I WAS WITH HIM IN FEBRUARY OF 2023 AFTER THE HURRICANE -- EXCUSE ME, THE EARTHQUAKE IN THE NORTHWEST AND AS ETF HAS WORKED ACTIVELY IN THE IDLIB AREA AND THE AREA NORTH OF THE ALEPPO CONTROLLED BY THE SYRIAN INTERIM GOVERNMENT AND WE FRANKLY DEVELOPED VERY GOOD RELATIONS WITH THE HTS AND FOUND THAT THEY WERE WORKING FOR THE HUMANITARIAN BENEFIT OF ALL COMMUNITIES, NOT JUST THE PEOPLE OF A PARTICULAR PART OF ISLAM, WORKING WITH CHRISTIANS AND OTHER MINORITIES.
SO FAR THE MESSAGES THEY'VE BEEN SENDING AND THE WAYS THEY'VE BEEN BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER I THINK ARE VERY POSITIVE.
I FRANKLY HOPE THEY WILL SOON BE DELISTED.
>> AS A TERRORIST.
>> WE WILL BE ENGAGING WITH THEM AND THEIR PARTNERS ON THIS JUSTICE PROCESS.
>> YOU HOPE THEY WILL BE DELISTED AS A TERROR ORGANIZATION BY THE UNITED STATES?
>> I THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE THAT THEY BE.
THEY SEPARATED THEMSELVES -- COMPLETELY SEPARATE FROM ISIS, THEY'VE DEFEATED ISIS IN THE NORTHWEST COMPLETELY, THAT'S AN AREA IN WHICH ISIS HAS HAD NONE OF THE STRENGTH THEY HAD IN THE NORTHEASTERN PART OF THE COUNTRY IN PARTICULAR AND SEPARATED AS WELL FROM THE AL NUSRA SORT OF INITIAL ROUTE FROM WHICH THEY COME.
OBVIOUSLY THIS IS A COUNTRY IN WHICH THE PREDOMINANT POPULATION IS SUNNI MUSLIM, THERE ARE MILLIONS OF SYRIANS TODAY IN MOSQUES PRAYING, PARTICULARLY LED BY THE GREAT ANCIENT MOSQUE THERE IN DAMASCUS, BUT IT'S ALSO A PLACE WHERE SHIA MUSLIMS, WHERE THERE ARE ALOITE MUSLIMS, CHRISTIANS AND OTHER MINORITIES.
WHATEVER IS DONE IN SYRIA, IN JUSTICE AND IN GOVERNANCE, NEEDS TO INVOLVE A PARTNERSHIP OF ALL OF THOSE GROUPS.
IT'S AN ENORMOUS CHALLENGE, BUT JUSTICE IS A KEY PART OF IT, BECAUSE WITHOUT IT EVERYTHING ELSE FAILS.
>> IT IS A COMPLICATED DYNAMIC, THOUGH.
AS YOU TALK ABOUT HTS PERHAPS RIGHT NOW SAYING ALL THE RIGHT THINGS, HAVING BEEN REFORMED, WORKING TO BRING ALL OF THE FACTIONS AND THE SECTS TOGETHER IN THE COUNTRY, VOWING TO OFFER REWARDS FOR ASSAD OFFICIALS WHO HAVE COMMITTED WAR CRIMES, ET CETERA, THEY ARE ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DETENTION OR FORCIBLE DISAPPEARANCE, IT IS REPORTED, OF OVER 2,500 SYRIANS AND THAT INCLUDES 46 CHILDREN.
HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT PROSECUTING CRIMES THAT THE GOVERNING PARTY ITSELF MAY HAVE COMMITTED?
>> WELL, THAT'S ALWAYS A CHALLENGE IN EVERY SITUATION, BUT THERE HAS TO BE A RECOGNITION THAT JUSTICE IS EVEN-HANDED AND NEEDS TO RECOGNIZE, YOU KNOW, PARTICULARLY THE ORGANIZED VIOLENCE AND WHAT OFTEN DISCOVERS IN EVERY CONFLICT IS THERE MAY BE ONE SIDE LIKE THE NAZIS THAT ARE OUT THERE IN A VERY ORGANIZED WAY KILLING MILLIONS, THERE MAY BE OTHERS THAT OVERREACT AND IN ACTS OF PERSONAL VENGEANCE OR WHATEVER, OR, YOU KNOW, TAKE IT OUT IN UNJUST WAYS ON INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE OPPONENTS.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO HANDLE THIS ALL PROPORTIONATELY, BUT THE KEY IS TO HAVE INDEPENDENT JUSTICE AND FAIR JUSTICE AND THAT HAS TO BE AN INCLUSIVE PROCESS.
NOW, IT WON'T HAPPEN ONLY IN SYRIA, BUT SYRIA SHOULD LEAD T I MEAN, THERE'S CASES LIKE THE LOS ANGELES CASE THAT THE U.S. JUST SUPERSEDED AN INDICTMENT ON, SOMETHING THAT WE WORKED IN CEJA AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS VERY HARD ON INVOLVING A PERSON WHO WAS ONE OF THE GOVERNORS OF -- UNDER ASSAD IN THE EAST, THAT EARLIER HAD RUN A PRISON THAT ACCORDING TO THE EVIDENCE HE TORTURED PEOPLE TO DEATH AND THAT'S -- THAT'S A CASE THAT, I THINK, NEEDS TO PROCEED IN LOS ANGELES.
HE IS IN THE UNITED STATES.
>> YEAH.
>> THERE'S OTHERS THAT ARE IN GERMANY AND ELSEWHERE.
I MEAN, THEY SHOULD BE PROSECUTED THERE.
THERE'S GOING TO BE MORE THAN ENOUGH DEFENDANTS TO GO AROUND, BUT THE KEY ARENA NEEDS TO BE IN SYRIA AND I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME KIND OF SPECIAL COURT CREATED AS -- >> INTERNALLY.
>> INTERNALLY.
>> YEAH.
>> BUT WITH INTERNATIONAL EXPERTS THAT FOLLOWS INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS IN WHICH PEOPLE HAVE A DEFENSE AND IN WHICH EVERYTHING FOLLOWS THE RULES THAT HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED AND SO MANY OF THESE OTHER POST CONFLICT SITUATIONS.
AND THEN THE TRUTH NEEDS TO COME OUT.
>> YEAH.
STEPHEN, AS YOU SAID A FEW YEARS AGO THERE'S BETTER EVIDENCE AGAINST ASSAD AND HIS CLIQUE THAN AGAINST MILL LOWS A VICH IN YUGOSLAVIA.
>> ND.
>> AND THE NAZIS IN NUREMBERG.
>> THESE ARE CRUCIAL TIMES THAT WE ARE IN AND WHICH WILL BE FOLLOWING THIS CLOSELY IN THE WEEKS TO COME.
THANK YOU.
>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, BIANNA.
>>> NEXT TO THE POWER OF LOVE AND A WRENCHING FILM.
NETFLIX'S "DAUGHTERS" FOLLOWS FOUR YOUNG GIRLS AS THEY PREPARE TO REUNITE AT THEIR INCARCERATED FATHERS AT A SPECIAL DANCE IN THE D.C. PRISON.
>> JUST GETTING OLDER AND WON'T BE HERE TO SEE THEM.
>> ONE GIRL SAID MY DAD CAN'T COME TO THE DANCE BECAUSE HE IS IN JAIL, AND ONE GIRL SUGGESTED WHY DON'T WE JUST TAKE THE DANCE IN THE JAIL?
>> YOU GUYS HAVE A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY TO SEE YOUR DAUGHTERS AND SPEND TIME WITH THEM.
>> I'M GOING TO BE VERY HONEST WITH YOU GUYS.
IT'S GOING TO BE AN EMOTIONAL ROLLER COASTER FOR YOU.
>> AN EMOTIONAL ROLLER COASTER INDEED TO WATCH.
A SUNDANCE FILM FESTIVAL WINNER, THIS DOCUMENTARY IS AN UNFLINCHING LOOK AT THE IMPACT OF INCARCERATION IN AMERICA.
IT'S CO-DIRECTED BY NATALIE RAE AND ANGELA PATTON, ACTIVISTS AND FOUNDER OF THE DATE WITH DAD WEEKEND, THE PROGRAM THAT INSPIRED THE FILM AND THEY'RE JOINING ME NOW BOTH.
I JUST HAVE TO SAY, ANGELA AND NATALIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BRINGING US THIS BEAUTIFUL, TOUCHING, HEARTBREAKING STORY ALL IN ONE.
THE ONLY WORDS I CAN THINK OF IS FROM THE MOUTHS OF BABES.
FOR A YOUNG GIRL TO SAY WHY DON'T WE JUST DO THE DANCE IN JAIL?
AND HERE WE ARE.
ANGELA, LET'S START WITH YOU.
THIS HAS BEEN A 20-YEAR JOURNEY, A PASSION PROJECT OF YOURS.
YOUR ORGANIZATION, GIRLS FOR A CHANGE, AND IT'S REALLY FOCUSED ON BLACK GIRLS SPECIFICALLY IN HELPING PREPARE THEM FOR ADULT HOOD AND THE CRUCIAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN A FATHER AND A DAUGHTER.
TALK ABOUT YOUR PROGRAM.
>> YES.
GIRLS FOR CHANGE IS A NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION LOCATED IN RICHMOND, VIRGINIA, WHERE I AM ALSO RN AND RAISED, AND I WAS ABLE TO SEE 20 YEARS AGO A GAP THAT BLACK GIRLS FACED IN MY COMMUNITY AND REALLY WANTED TO DO MORE THAN JUST PREPARE THEM FOR THE WORLD.
I WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE WERE PREPARING BLACK GIRLS FOR THE WORLD AND THE WORLD FOR BLACK GIRLS.
IT REALLY STARTS WITH GIRLS' VOICES BEING HEARD, THEM BEING CELEBRATED, AND THEM BEING VALUED, AND ALSO BEING SEEN.
SO THESE GIRLS DECIDED A WAY TO DO THAT WAS FIRST BY BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEIR FAMILIES AND SPECIFICALLY THEIR FATHERS IN THEIR LIVES.
>> AND, NATALIE, THE FILM REALLY FOCUSES ON FOUR YOUNG GIRLS RANGING IN AGE FROM 5 TO 15 AT THE START OF THE FILM YOU HAVE AUBREY 5 YEARS OLD, SANTANA 10, JAHANNA 1 AND JOSIAH 15 YEARS OLD.
WISE BEYOND THEIR YEARS BECAUSE OF THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE SITUATION THEIR FATHERS FIND THEMSELVES IN.
AUBREY I WOULD SAY IS JUST THE VOICE OF INNOCENCE, THERE'S EXCITEMENT IN HER EYE, A TWINKLE IN HER EYE, A LOVE FOR HER FATHER WHO HAD WALKED HER TO SCHOOL PRIOR TO BEING ARRESTED.
THEIR PASSION, SHARED PASSION FOR MUSIC, AND HER CONSTANT CERTIFICATES OF EXCELLENCE AT SCHOOL.
TALK TO US ABOUT THESE GIRLS AND HOW THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR FATHERS AND THEIR FATHERS BEING INCARCERATED REALLY IMPACTED THEIR LIVES AND DEVELOPMENT.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.
YEAH, IT WAS VERY POWERFUL TO WATCH FIRSTHAND, YOU KNOW, WHAT CAN HAPPEN WITH A CHILD LIKE AUBREY AND HER FATHER KEITH, SO CLOSE, HE'S TEACHING HER SIGN LANGUAGE, THEY DO HOMEWORK TOGETHER, WALKING TO SCHOOL, AND THAT LOVE IS SO STRONG AND SO PALPABLE AND ONLY WITHIN A FEW YEARS YOU SEE THE DISTANCE IN WHICH THIS SYSTEM CREATES ON THIS RELATIONSHIP.
BECAUSE OF THEIR NOT GETTING PROPER VISITATION THEY DON'T HAVE TOUCH VISITS YOU REALLY SEE HOW QUICKLY THE FAMILIES ARE REALLY RIPPED APART AND, OF COURSE, THAT'S GOING TO HAVE A DEVASTATING IMPACT ON THESE GIRLS' MENTAL HEALTH, THEIR ABILITY TO FUNCTION IN SCHOOL, GRADUATE, YOU KNOW, IT IMPACTS EVERY SINGLE PART OF THE GIRLS' UPBRINGING IN LIFE.
>> ANGELA, THIS PROGRAM, DATE WITH DAD, STARTED IN ONE PRISON SYSTEM AS A TRIAL EXPERIMENT.
IT'S A TEN-WEEK PROCESS FOR THESE MEN WHO ARE INCARCERATED TO GO THROUGH.
THEY HAVE SORT OF A LIFE COACH WHO IS HELPING THEM ALONG THE WAY BEFORE THEY GET TO ULTIMATELY THE DANCE WITH THEIR DAUGHTER.
IT'S JUST A GUT PUNCH AND YET SO SWEET TO EVEN NOTE THAT THEY WERE GIVEN SUITS TO WEAR.
YOUR 80-YEAR-OLD FATHER SHINED THEIR SHOES AT THE TIME SO THAT THEY COULD LOOK PRESENTABLE AS IF THEY REALLY WERE AT A PROM-LIKE EVENT WITH THEIR DAUGHTERS WHEN THEY SHOWED UP IN THEIR BEAUTIFUL LITTLE DRESSES.
THE PROCESS ALONE IS DOCUMENTED IN THIS FILM AND YOU SEE THE EXCITEMENT BOTH FROM THEIR DAUGHTERS' PERSPECTIVES BUT ALSO FROM THE FATHERS.
LET'S PLAY A CLIP.
>> BRING THEM OUT, MAN.
>> I AIN'T NEVER WENT TO THE PROM.
I AIN'T NEVER BEEN TO MY PROM.
♪ ♪ >> WHAT DID THAT MEAN FOR YOU, ANGELA, JUST WATCHING THIS ALL COME TOGETHER AND TELLING THE STORIES OF THESE FATHERS, SO MANY OF THEM ALSO NOT HAVING CHILDHOODS THAT THEY CAN RECALL RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEIR OWN DADS AND REALLY -- REALLY ATTEMPTING TO BREAK THAT CHAIN AND TO DEVELOP A BOND WITH THEIR DAUGHTERS.
>> WELL, WHAT IT MEANS TO ME IS THAT THERE IS A LOT OF WORK THAT WE NEED TO DO IN OUR COMMUNITY, BUT WE ALSO NEED TO MAKE SURE AS COMMUNITY MEMBERS THAT WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING SURE THAT OUR CHILDREN HAVE WHAT THEY NEED BY LISTENING TO THEM, BECAUSE THIS PROJECT DID NOT START OUT AS AN EXPERIMENT, IT STARTED BECAUSE I ACTIVELY LISTENED TO WHAT GIRLS SAID THAT THEY NEEDED TO FEEL FULFILLED AND TO FEEL ADDS THOUGH AS GROWING INTO THEIR WOMANHOOD THAT THEY HAD THESE SPECIAL CONNECTIONS WITH THEIR FATHERS.
SO AS A COMMUNITY LEADER AND ACTIVIST WE ACTUALLY TOGETHER CO-CREATING WITH THESE GIRLS DECIDED THAT IT WOULD BE AN AMAZING IDEA TO REACH OUT TO THEIR ERIFF WHO IS A COMMUNITY POLITICAL LEADER WHO IS SUPPOSED TO SHOW UP WHOLEHEARTEDLY AND REALLY ADDRESS THE NEEDS OF MAKING SURE THAT WE THRIVE AS A COMMUNITY.
SO I WOULD JUST SAY THAT WHAT IT MAKES ME FEEL IS THAT GIRLS, YOUNG PEOPLE, ARE RESILIENT, THAT THEY HAVE THE ANSWER A LOT OF TIMES THAT WE ARE DRUG STRUG FOR, AND WHEN YOU HAVE CONVERSATIONS AND ALSO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER IT IS UNIMAGINABLE WHAT YOU CAN DO, BECAUSE I SEE THESE GIRLS AS UNSTOPPABLE HEROES AND I JUST LOOK FORWARD TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO OFFER AS THEY BECOME ADULTS AND ACTUALLY SEE THEMSELVES AS PROBLEM SOLVERS OF THINGS THAT MAY NOT BE WHAT THEY'VE ASKED FOR, BUT THINGS THAT MAY HAVE COME UP IN THEIR LIVES THAT THEY HAVE JUST BEEN THROWN INTO, BUT THEY ACTUALLY ARE RESILIENT ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY CAN SOLVE THESE ISSUES IN COMMUNITY.
SO JUST REALLY PRIVILEGED AND AN HONOR TO BE ABLE TO BE IN THESE SPACES AND SEE THESE FAMILIES HEAL AND REBUILD AND SUSTAIN THESE RELATIONSHIPS THAT ARE POWERFUL AND ARE NECESSARY FOR ALL OF US.
>> AND IT CHANGED THE FAMILIES OVERALL.
IT'S NOT JUST THE CHILDREN WHO ARE IMPACTED.
SO MANY OF THESE FATHERS, I MEAN, THIS IS REALLY A STRIKING STATISTIC.
95% OF THE FATHERS INVOLVED IN THE PROGRAM HAVEN'T REOFFENDED.
AND THIS IS A COMMITMENT THEY'VE MADE NOT ONLY TO THEIR CHILDREN BUT REALLY TO THEMSELVES.
A SECOND CHANCE TO REALLY BE FATHERS TO THESE GIRLS AND TO BRING THEIR FAMILIES BACK TOGETHER.
NATALIE, YOU MENTIONED THE FACT THAT SO MANY OF THESE PRISONS DON'T ALLOW -- THEY REMOVED IN-PERSON VISITS AND THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO TOUCH THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS.
THERE'S AN EMOTIONAL TOLL THAT THAT BRINGS TO THESE CHILDREN, TO THEIR FATHERS.
IT MAKES IT THAT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO STAY IN TOUCH, AS OPPOSED TO JUST A FEW MINUTES ON A PHONE CALL EVERY FEW WEEKS.
LET'S PLAY A CLIP FROM THE FILM THAT HIGHLIGHTS JUST THE POWER OF THE TOUCH AND WHY THESE FATHERS WERE WARNED THAT AS BEAUTIFUL AS THAT MOMENT WILL BE, IT WILL BE JUST AS DIFFICULT WHEN THEY HAVE TO SAY GOOD-BYE TO THEIR DAUGHTERS AT THE END OF THIS DANCE.
>> YOU KNOW, I CAN SEE A GIRL PROBABLY NOT WANTING TO TAKE OFF HER DRESS FOR A COUPLE MORE HOURS WHEN SHE GETS HOME BECAUSE HER DAD GOT TO TOUCH THAT.
HE'S NOT GOING TO WANT TO GET OUT OF THE SUIT BECAUSE IT WAS TOUCHED BY HIS DAUGHTER.
THAT'S HOW POWERFUL IT IS THAT YOU WANT TO KIND OF REMAIN IN THAT SPACE AS LONG AS YOU CAN.
♪ >> THE POWER OF TOUCH IS SO MEANINGFUL.
WHEN CHILDREN ARE REMOVED FROM TOUCHING THEIR PARENT, SEEING THEIR PARENT, HEARING THEIR PARENT'S VOICE, THEY DOUBT THE POSSIBILITY OF SURVIVING IN THE WORLD.
>> NATALIE, WHY WAS THIS ELEMENT SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO INCLUDE IN THE FILM?
AND I'M WONDERING WHAT MESSAGE THIS COULD SEND PRISONS IN JUST CHANGING THE WAY THE SYSTEM WORKS TO ALLOW FOR THESE HUMAN MOMENTS, FOR THESE FAMILIES TO SPEND TIME TOGETHER TOUCHING EACH OTHER, REALLY GIVING THESE FATHERS AN OPPORTUNITY TO THINK ABOUT WHAT LIFE AFTER PRISON LOOKS LIKE AND THESE GIRLS HOPE ABOUT STAYING CONNECTED TO THEIR DADS.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
WELL, IT WAS THE FIRST THING THAT ALL OF THE GIRLS AND FATHERS SAID THAT THEY WANTED WHEN I ASKED WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO CHANGE ABOUT YOUR SITUATION, IT WAS I JUST WANT TO BE ABLE TO TOUCH THEM.
SO IT WAS A VERY VISCERAL, EMOTIONAL REACTION TO WHAT THEY NEEDED.
SINCE 2014, PRE-PANDEMIC, A LOT OF THE VISITATION ROOMS HAVE BEEN TAKEN AWAY AND REPLACED WITH VIDEO MONITORS AND TABLETS WHICH FAMILIES HAVE TO DOWNLOAD AN APP AND ACTUALLY BE CHARGED FOR FACETIMES AND SOME OF THIS TYPE OF CONNECTION.
SO THEN THE CHILDREN END UP NOT WANTING TO DO IT AND THEN END UP NOT CONNECTING AT ALL.
WE ALSO KNOW THAT TOUCH IS THE LANGUAGE OF LOVE, IT CONNECTS YOU AND MAKES YOU FEEL SOMETHING MUCH DEEPER THAT LASTS -- THAT LASTS WITH YOU.
AND STUDIES SAY NOW THAT TOUCH IS ACTUALLY -- HELPS THE BODY FIGHT TRAUMATIC FIGHT OR FLIGHT SYSTEM, SO WE ACTUALLY NEED IT FOR SURVIVAL, FOR PROCESSING, EMOTIONS FOR PROCESSING TRAUMA AND THAT THOSE TOUCH VISITS CAN REALLY MAKE YOU STAY AND FEEL CONNECTED TO YOUR SENSE OF SELF-LOVE AND LOVING YOUR FAMILY.
IT'S ACTUALLY JUST INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AND THE DANCE REALLY SERVES AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW POWERFUL ONE DAY, ONE VISIT CAN BE FOR THE YEARS TO COME.
AND WE HOPE THAT NOW THAT THE WORLD HAS POTENTIALLY SEEN WHAT IT DOES WHEN WE'RE SEPARATED, WE'VE BEEN THROUGH A PANDEMIC AND WE KNOW THAT BEING ON ZOOM AND BEING ON A VIDEO SCREEN IS NOT A REPLACEMENT AND DOESN'T WORK, THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WILL GET BEHIND THIS AND HELP THESE CHILDREN AND BE VOCAL IN THEIR COMMUNITIES TO BRING BACK TOUCH VISITS AND PROTECT THESE CHILDREN.
>> AND IT'S NOT A HOLLYWOOD ENDING STORY, EITHER.
I MEAN, YOU MADE THE DECISION TO NOT END THE FILM RIGHT AFTER THE DANCE, WHICH YOU COULD HAVE, BUT TO REALLY FOCUS ON THE REALITY THAT THESE FAMILIES FACED IN THE YEARS AFTER THIS DANCE, MANY FATHERS STILL HAVEN'T SEEN THEIR DAUGHTERS, THEY STILL REMAIN BEHIND BARS.
THESE CHILDREN HAVE GROWN UP, SOME OF THEM BITTER REALLY AND THEY'VE LOST A LOT OF THAT INNOCENCE THAT WE SAW EARLY ON, BUT I HAVE TO TELL YOU WHEN I SAW THOSE GIRLS WALKING INTO THE ROOM, I MEAN, JUST THE TEARS THAT THAT BROUGHT ON, SEEING THEIR FATHERS HUGGING THEIR DAUGHTERS, SO MANY OF THEM HAVING THE SAME FACES AS THEIR FATHERS, YOU COULD REALLY TELL WHOSE DAUGHTER WAS WHOSE.
IT IS A REALLY BEAUTIFUL, IMPORTANT FILM AND I THANK YOU BOTH.
ANGELA, FOR THIS IDEA, AND NATALIE, FOR CAPTURING IT SO WELL IN THIS FILM.
THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US TODAY.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US.
>> AND "DAUGHTERS" IS OUT NOW ON NETFLIX.
>>> WE TURN NOW AS A NEW YEAR OF RAPID TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCEMENT APPROACHES, ALL EYES ARE ON AI.
IT'S WHAT EVERYONE HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT.
IN THE NEW BEST SELLING BOOK "GENESIS," ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE HOPE AND THE HUMAN SPIRIT, IT'S PUTTING THE NEW TECHNOLOGY UNDER THE MICROSCOPE, TAKING A LOOK AT HOW IT CAN HELP US AND HOW IT CAN STOP US FROM HURTING OURSELVES.
CO-AUTHOR AND FORMER GOOGLE CEO ERIC SCHMIDT JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS.
>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.
WELL CAM BACK TO THE SHOW.
>> THANK YOU.
GREAT TO SEE YOU.
>> THIS NEW BOOK WHICH YOU WROTE WITH THE LATE HENRY KISSINGER BEFORE HE DIED AND CRAIG MONDAY A LONG TIME WITH MICROSOFT IS ABOUT HOW WE'RE SUPPOSED TO HANDLE AI BUT EVEN MORE PHILOSOPHICAL.
YOU SAY IT'S A QUESTION OF HUMAN SURVIVAL YOU'RE ADDRESSING.
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT AND WHY DID YOU CALL IT "GENESIS"?
>> WE BELIEVE AND IN COLLATERAL DR. KISSINGER BELIEVED THAT THE AI REVOLUTION IS OF THE SCALE OF THE REFORMATION.
THAT RIGHT NOW WE'RE USED TO BEING THE TOP DOG, IF YOU WILL, AND WE DETERMINE REASON, WE DETERMINE OUTCOMES AND WITH THE AI REVOLUTION THERE'S ALWAYS A DANGER THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE THE DOG TO THEIR COMPUTERS.
IN OTHER WORDS, THEY'RE GOING TO TELL US WHAT TO DO.
THE BOOK IS REALLY A STATEMENT OF HOW IMPORTANT HUMAN DIGNITY IS.
THE ABILITY TO THINK AND TO BE FREE, TO NOT BE SUBJECT TO SURVEILLANCE, ALL OF THE THINGS THAT ARE POSSIBLE ON THE DOWN SIDE OF AI REVOLUTION.
WE ALSO SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT WHAT AI CAN DO AND I WILL GIVE YOU A SIMPLE EXAMPLE.
IN A FEW YEARS ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT YOU WILL HAVE IN YOUR POCKET 90% OF LEONARDO DA VINCI, SOMETHING YOU KNOW A LOT B 90% OF THE GREATEST PHYSICISTS, THE GREATEST CHEMISTS.
WHAT WILL IT BE LIKE WHERE EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US HAVE THAT KIND OF DISCOVERY CAPABILITY?
IN OUR BOOK WE TALK ABOUT POLYMAP, SOMETHING AGAIN YOU KNOW A LOT ABOUT BECAUSE OF YOUR MEEFS WRITING.
THEY ARE REALLY IMPORTANT AND CHANGE THE COURSE OF HISTORY.
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN POLYMAP?
WE ARE JUST NOT READY AS A SOCIETY FOR THE IMPLICATIONS OF THIS POWERFUL ARRIVAL OF INTELLIGENCE.
>> WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAY, BECAUSE YOU ARE GENERALLY A TECH KNOW OPTIMIST, IS THAT SOMETIMES YOU WORRY WE HAVEN'T GONE FAST ENOUGH.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
>> WELL, WE HAVE TO START BY ALL THE THINGS THAT THIS AI INTELLIGENCE WILL PROVIDE, MUCH FASTER CURES FOR DISEASES.
HOW DO YOU WANT TO SOLVE CLIMATE CHANGE?
YOU NEED NEW ENERGY, YOU NEED AI TO DO THAT.
UNIVERSAL DOCTOR, UNIVERSAL TEACHERS.
GETTING EVERY HUMAN ON THE PLANET TO THEIR TOP POTENTIAL.
MAKING BUSINESSES FAR MORE EFFICIENT, WHICH MEANS MORE PROFITS BUT ALSO MORE GROWTH, MORE JOBS AND SO FORTH.
ALL OF THOSE ARE GOING TO HAPPEN, THEY'RE GOING TO HAPPEN VERY, VERY QUICKLY.
AND THE DOWN SIDES ARE ALSO QUITE SERIOUS.
THE ABILITY TO DO CYBER ATTACKS, NATION STATE TENSIONS, MISINFORMATION.
ONE OF MY THEORIES IS MOST OF WHAT YOU SEE POLITICALLY NOW IS BECAUSE EVERYONE IS ONLINE AND THEY HAVE ALL FOUND THEIR SPECIAL TRIBAL GROUPS AND THEY HAVE ALL DECIDED THAT THEY ALL BELIEVE THE SAME THING, EVEN THOUGH REALITY IS MUCH MORE SUBTLE IN WHAT THE INDIVIDUAL SEEMS TO BELIEVE.
>> DO YOU THINK THIS SHOULD BE LEFT TO THE TECHNOLOGISTS LIKE YOU AND GREG MONDAY.
>> WELL, DR. KISSINGER GOT STARTED IN THIS ALMOST TEN YEARS AGO BECAUSE HE WAS VERY CLEAR THAT PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF SHOULD NOT BE MAKING THESE DECISIONS.
LET'S LOOK AT SOCIAL MEDIA.
WE'VE NOW ARRIVED AT A SITUATION WHERE WE HAVE THESE HUGE COMPANIES IN WHICH I WAS PART OF, AND THEY ALL HAVE THIS HUGE POSITIVE IMPLICATION FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND CULTURE, BUT THEY HAVE SIGNIFICANT NEGATIVE IMPLICATIONS IN TERMS OF TRIBALISM, MISINFORMATION, INDIVIDUAL HARM, ESPECIALLY AGAINST YOUNG PEOPLE AND ESPECIALLY AGAINST YOUNG WOMEN.
NONE OF US FORESAW THAT.
MAYBE IF WE HAD HAD SOME NONTECHNICAL PEOPLE DOING THIS WITH US WE WOULD HAVE FORESEEN THE IMPACT OP SOCIETY.
I DON'T WANT US TO MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN WITH A MUCH MORE POWERFUL TOOL.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA AND YOU SAY THAT PEOPLE -- TECHNOLOGISTS, YOU WERE AT GOOGLE, DIDN'T REALLY FORESEE SOME OF THE DOWN SIDE.
MY COLLEAGUE HARI SREENIVASAN HAS BEEN DOING THIS A LOT ON THIS SHOW, TALKING ABOUT THE ALGORITHMS AND HOW THE ALGORITHMS INCENT DEPRESSION SOMETIMES, INCENT ENRAGEMENT, NOT JUST ENGAGEMENT.
IS IT BAKED INTO THE ALGORITHMS AND, IF SO, SHOULD WE HOLD SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT?
>> WE SHOULD, AND IT'S SIMPLE TO UNDERSTAND.
I AM PERSONALLY VERY STRONGLY IN FAVOR OF HUMAN SPEECH, INCLUDING HUMAN SPEECH WHICH IS TERRIBLE AND I DON'T AGREE WITH.
THAT'S MY PERSONAL VIEW.
BUT I'M NOT IN FAVOR OF COMPUTER ALGORITHM SPEECH BEING THE SAME THING.
WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS BOOSTING BASED ON AN ALGORITHM.
LET'S IMAGINE YOU AND I FOUND A COMPANY AND WE ARE PERFECT, WE HAVE NO BIASES WHATSOEVER, BUT WE WANT TO MAXIMIZE REVENUE.
WELL, THE BEST WAY TO MAXIMIZE REVENUE IS TO MAXIMIZE ENGAGEMENT AND THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT IS OUTRAGE.
EVEN IF YOU AND I AS WELL-MEANING AS WE COULD BE, NO BIAS, WE WANT TO BE TRUTHFUL AND ALL OF THAT, OUR SYSTEM WILL PRODUCE THESE HOLES, THESE CUBICLES, THESE CAN A I WAS THAT PEOPLE WILL END UP WITH.
>> DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD GET RID OF WHAT IS SOMETIMES CALLED SECTION 230 PROTECTIONS WHICH IS THAT PART OF THE LAW THAT SAYS YOU DON'T HOLD A PLATFORM ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT GETS POSTED AND MAYBE EVEN AMPLIFIED?
>> SECTION 230 WAS PASSED IN ROUGHLY 1994 SO IT'S ABOUT 30 YEARS OLD.
WE HAD NO IDEA THAT THE INTERNET WOULD BE USED FOR THIS.
SO WE SIMPLY ASKED, AND I WAS PART OF IT AT THE TIME, WE JUST WANTED AN EXEMPTION FOR TECHNOLOGY AND CONTENT WE DIDN'T OWN.
THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ANYMORE.
THERE NEEDS TO BE RESTRICTIONS ON SECTION 230 FOR THE WORST CASES.
I'M TALKING ABOUT THINGS WHERE THERE'S REAL HARM.
HARM TO PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE, WE HAVE TO CHANGE IT.
>> WOULD YOU COUNT HARM TO DEMOCRACY IN THAT LIST?
>> I THINK DEMOCRACIES ARE BEING HARMED BY THE TRIBALISM AND BY THE MISINFORMATION, BUT I DOUBT WE'RE GOING TO COME TO AN AGREEMENT, CERTAINLY NOT IN THE U.S.
BUT ALSO MANY OTHER COUNTRIES AS TO WHAT TRUTH S I THINK THE BEST WAY THAT WE CAN HANDLE SOCIAL MEDIA IS BASICALLY TO SAY THAT IF THERE IS A REAL HARM, THIS THING HAS TO GET STOMPED.
IF IT'S A CASE WHERE I TELL YOU ONE THING AND YOU SAY ANOTHER AND IT'S AN OPEN DEBATE, THAT'S PROBABLY NOT GOING TO DESTROY DEMOCRACY.
>> TELL ME HOW THESE ISSUES ARE INCREASED, THE PROBLEMS AS WE MOVE FROM SOCIAL MEDIA, MEANING, YOU KNOW, NETWORKS LIKE X OR FACEBOOK, TO AI.
>> THERE ARE TWO REALLY BIG THINGS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN OUR INDUSTRY, ONE IS THE DEVELOPMENT OF WHAT ARE CALLED AGENTS, WHERE AGENTS CAN DO SOMETHING.
SO YOU CAN SAY I WANT TO BUILD A HOUSE, YOU FIND THE ARCHITECT, GO THROUGH THE LAND USE, BUY THE HOUSE, IT CAN ALL BE DONE BY COMPUTER, NOT JUST BY HUMANS.
THEN THE OTHER THING IS THE ABILITY FOR THE COMPUTER TO WRITE CODE.
SO IF I SAY TO YOU I WANT TO SORT OF STUDY THE AUDIENCE FOR THIS SHOW AND I WANT YOU TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE A VARIANT OF MY SHOW FOR EACH AND EVERY PERSON WHO IS WATCHING IT, THE COMPUTER CAN DO THAT.
THAT'S HOW POWERFUL THE PROGRAMMING CAPABILITIES OF AI ARE.
IN MY CASE I MANAGED PROGRAMMERS MY WHOLE LIFE AND THEY TYPICALLY DON'T DO WHAT I WANT, YOU KNOW, THEY DO WHATEVER THEY WANT, BUT WITH A COMPUTER IT WILL DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAY.
AND THE GAINS IN COMPUTER PROGRAMMING FROM THE AI SYSTEMS ARE FRIGHTENING.
THEY ARE BOTH ENTICING BECAUSE THEY WILL CHANGE THE SLOPE.
RIGHT NOW THE SLOPE OF AI IS LIKE THIS, AND WHEN YOU HAVE AI SCIENTISTS THAT IS COMPUTERS DEVELOPING AI THE SLOPE WILL GO WHAM, RIGHT, BUT THAT DEVELOPMENT PUTS AN AWFUL LOT OF POWER IN THE HANDS OF AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE.
>> LET ME ASK THIS IN A VERY BROADWAY.
WE OFTEN TALK ABOUT A DUTY OF CARE THAT CORPORATIONS HAVE, OTHERS HAVE.
WHAT IS THE DUTY OF CARE THAT YOU THINK AI COMPANIES SHOULD DO?
>> WELL, I'M ALL IN FAVOR OF AI COMPANIES INVENTING THIS NEW FUTURE AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY WILL MAKE MISTAKES AND THERE WILL BE SOME INITIAL HARM, SOME BAD THING WILL HAPPEN.
THE SECRET IS NOT THAT SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS, BUT THAT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.
WHEN WE WERE RUNNING GOOGLE, WE ARE NOW DOING OTHER THINGS, WE HAD A RULE THAT IF ANYTHING HAPPENED IN THE MORNING WE WOULD FIX IT BY NOON.
RIGHT?
WE WERE ON IT.
AND I THINK THAT KIND OF ACTIVE MANAGEMENT OF SOCIAL MEDIA AND OF AI IN GENERAL FOR CONSUMER PRODUCTS IS GOING TO BE CRUCIAL.
>> YOU AND I FIRST DISCUSSED THIS, I THINK, WITH DR. CAN I SAY HE KISSINGER WHEN WE WERE A IN CHINA FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AGO I THINK IT WAS.
HOW DO YOU THINK SINCE THEN THE CHINESE ARE PROGRESSING ON AI?
ONE OF THE THINGS WE TALKED ABOUT IS THEY HAVE RESTRICTIONS ON FREE SPEECH.
IS THAT GOING TO HELP THEM OR HURT THEM IN THIS REGARD?
>> THEY BELIEVE THAT THOSE RESTRICTIONS HELP THEM AND OBVIOUSLY IT'S A HORRIFIC, IT'S A VIOLATION OF THOSE SORT OF LIBERAL WESTERN ORDER, BUT I CAN'T FIX THAT.
WHEN I WAS IN CHINA WITH DR. KISSINGER A YEAR AND A HALF AGO I WAS QUITE CONVINCED THAT CHINA WAS ABOUT TWO YEARS BEHIND US.
IT LOOKS LIKE UNFORTUNATELY I WAS WRONG AND THAT EVEN WITH ALL OF THE CHIP RESTRICTION THAT IS WE PUT IN, WHICH TRUMP PUT IN, PRESIDENT BIDEN PUT IN AS WELL, ALL THE RIGHT, WELL-MEANING THINGS, THE CHINESE HAVE GOTTEN VERY CLOSE TO OUR TOP MODELS.
YOU SIT THERE AND YOU GO, WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT?
BECAUSE THESE ARE MODELS THAT CAN SHOW PLANNING, THEY CAN BEGIN TO DO PHYSICS, THEY CAN DO MATH.
THESE MODELS ARE NOW AT THE GRADUATE LEVEL OF MATH AND PHYSICS PEOPLE, TRUE IN CHINA AND IN THE UNITED STATES.
SO CHINA CLEARLY UNDERSTANDS THE VALUE OF HAVING WHAT IS GENERALLY CALLED GENERAL INTELLIGENCE AS IT APPLIES TO ITS NATIONAL SECURITY, TO ITS BUSINESS GOALS, TO ITS SOCIETAL GOALS AND TO THE SURVEILLANCE THAT IS CHARACTERISTIC OF THE STATE.
THE WEST NEEDS TO WIN THAT BATTLE.
IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT THE SYSTEMS THAT WE USE REFLECT AMERICAN AND WESTERN LIBERAL VALUES, SUCH AS FREEDOM OF THOUGHT, FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, THE DIGNITY OF ALL THE PEOPLE INVOLVED.
I'M VERY, VERY WORRIED THAT IN THIS CONTEST THEY ARE NOW SO FOCUSED THAT THEY ARE NOT ONLY CATCHING UP, BUT THEY WILL CATCH UP.
REMEMBER THAT THE COUNTRY OR THE COMPANY THAT DEVELOPS THE SYSTEM THAT IS SMARTER THAN ANY HUMAN IN THE WORLD, THIS IS CALLED SUPER INTELLIGENCE, CAN THEN APPLY THAT TO ITSELF TO GET SMARTER AND SMARTER AND SMARTER.
THERE ARE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT SUCH A SYSTEM WHEN IT APPEARS, AND WE BELIEVE IT WILL APPEAR PROBABLY WITHIN THE NEXT DECADE, WILL GIVE THAT IN THIS CASE COUNTRY OR COMPANY AN ASYMMETRIC POWERFUL MONOPOLY FOR DECADES TO COME.
WE JUST DON'T KNOW.
>> THIS FEAR THAT CHINA IS CATCHING UP AND MAY SOON SURPASS US IN AI, IS THAT AN ARGUMENT TO NOT PUT TOO MANY REGULATIONS AND RESTRICTIONS IN THE U.S. ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF AI?
>> IN AMERICA I THINK BASED ON WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID ANY EXISTING RESTRICTIONS ARE LIKELY TO BE ELIMINATED AND CHINA THEY ARE ALSO MOVING SO QUICKLY THEIR OWN RESTRICTIONS ARE DONE AFTER THE FACT.
BASICALLY YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO, BUT IF YOU DO SOMETHING REALLY BAD THEY WILL COME AND ARREST YOU.
SO IT'S DONE IN THAT WAY.
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW IN AMERICA TO ALLOW THIS INNOVATION TO OCCUR DURING THIS CRITICAL TIME AS QUICKLY AS WE CAN.
NOW, I KNOW PEOPLE SAY, OH, THAT'S TERRIBLE, THAT MEANS MY PRIVACY WILL BE VIOLATED.
WE WILL DEAL WITH THAT IF IT HAPPENS, BUT RIGHT NOW THE SENSE OF DESTINY THAT MY INDUSTRY HAS THAT SHOWER' BUILDING SOMETHING LARGER THAN OURSELVES, THAT THE ARRIVAL OF THIS INTELLIGENCE THAT I'M DISCUSSING IS SO MUCH POWERFUL THAN PEOPLE APPRECIATE THAT WE HAVE TO DO IT.
I WILL TELL YOU, BY THE WAY, I DON'T THINK WESTERN DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS ARE READY FOR THIS.
THERE ARE HUGE IMPLICATIONS FOR THIS.
WEALTH DISTRIBUTION, ACCESS, PRIVACY, ALL OF THE THINGS THAT EVERYONE TALKS ABOUT, BUT LET'S MAKE SURE WE WIN.
I DO NOT WANT TO BE -- HAVE CHINA WIN THIS ONE AHEAD OF US.
IT'S TOO IMPORTANT.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE DANGER OF TOO MANY REGULATIONS.
NOW YOU HAVE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION COMING IN, YOU HAVE DAVID SACHS WHO IS VERY MUCH OF A TECH KNOW PROGRESSIVE, TECH KNOW -- PUSHING FOR TECHNOLOGY, VERY CLOSE FRIEND OF ELON MUSK.
HOW DO YOU THINK TRUMP, DAVID SACHS AND OTHERS WILL BE LOOKING AT AI?
>> I'M ASSUMING THAT THEY ARE GOING TO FOLLOW A LA SAY FAIR RO REGULATION APPROACH.
THE PRESIDENT HAS INDICATED THAT HE'S NOT GOING TO CONTINUE SOME OF THE AI REGULATIONS THAT WERE PUT IN PLACE BY PRESIDENT BIDEN.
SO MY PREDICTION WILL BE THAT WE WILL START WITH NO REGULATION BUT THAT THERE WILL BE A MAJOR PROJECT WITHIN THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION TO UNDERSTAND THE CHINA VERSUS U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUES OF AI.
>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE COMPETITION WITH CHINA, YOU AND OF COURSE DR. KISSINGER SPENT A WHOLE LOT OF TIME IN CHINA.
TALKED TO THE TOP LEADERSHIP.
DO YOU THINK THERE IS A POSSIBILITY WE COULD END UP COOPERATING WITH CHINA MORE OR DO YOU THINK IT'S INEVITABLY A COMPETITION?
>> I SPENT A LOT OF YEARS HOPING THE COLLABORATION WOULD OCCUR AND THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE IN OUR INDUSTRY WHO THINK THAT THE ARRIVAL AND DEVELOPMENT OF THIS NEW INTELLIGENCE IS SO IMPORTANT IT SHOULD BE DONE IN A MULTINATIONAL WAY, IT SHOULD BE DONE IN THE EQUIVALENT OF SERN THE GREAT PHYSICS LABORATORY WHICH IS GLOBAL IN SWITZERLAND.
THE POLITICAL TENSIONS AND STRESS OVER VALUES IS SO GREAT THERE'S JUST NO SCENARIO, THERE'S JUST -- I WANT TO SAY IT AGAIN, THERE IS JUST NO SCENARIO WHERE YOU CAN DO THAT.
>> YOU WERE A CHAIRMAN OF THE DEFENSE INNOVATION BOARD A WHILE BACK UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA AND I THINK YOU WORKED WITH THAT WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN ON THE DEFENSE INNOVATION BOARD WITH YOU AND WE LOOKED AT AI AND HOW THAT WAS GOING TO AFFECT WARFARE, PARTICULARLY DRONE WARFARE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE FUTURE OF WARFARE CAN AND SHOULD BE IN THE ERA OF AI?
>> IF YOU STUDY THE RUSSIA/UKRAINE CONFLICT, THE UKRAINIANS WHO HAD NO NAVY AND NO AIR FORCE WERE FORCED TO SCRAMBLE AND THEY DID SO VALIANTLY.
I SPENT LOTS OF TIME THERE.
THEY ULTIMATELY BUILT RELATIVELY SIMPLE DRONES THAT ARE NOW TURNING OUT TO BE VERY COMPLEX WEAPONS.
IT LOOKS TO ME LIKE FOR TERRESTRIAL CONFLICT THE CORRECT ANSWER IS AUTONOMY WHICH ULTIMATELY MEANS DRONES.
I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN SITUATIONS IN UKRAINE WHERE YOU HAVE A SOLDIER SITTING AT A SCREEN DRINKING COFFEE, CONTROLLING A WEAPON THAT'S VERY FAR AWAY, DOING WHATEVER JOB IT WAS DOING.
I KNOW -- IF YOU THINK ABOUT WAR, IN OUR HISTORY THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF HISTORY, IT WAS STEREOTYPICALLY A MAN AND A GUN SHOOTING THE OTHER MAN WITH A GUN.
THAT IS AN ANTIQUATED MODEL OF WAR.
THE CORRECT MODEL, AND OBVIOUSLY WAR IS HORRIFIC, IS TO HAVE THE PEOPLE WELL BEHIND AND HAVE THE WEAPONS WELL UP FRONT AND HAVE THEM NETWORKED AND CONTROLLED BY AI.
THE FUTURE OF WAR IS AI NETWORKED DRONES OF MANY DIFFERENT KINDS.
>> DO HUMANS NEED TO BE IN THE LOOP.
>> THE U.S. RULE IS CALLED HUMAN IN THE LOOP OR MEANINGFUL HUMAN CONTROL.
SO WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS THAT THE COMPUTER WILL PRODUCE THE BATTLE PLAN AND THE HUMAN WILL AUTHORIZE IT, THEREBY GIVING THE LEGITIMACY OF BOTH AUTHORIZING AS A HUMAN BUT ALSO THE LEGITIMACY OF CONTROL AND LIABILITY IF THEY MAKE A MISTAKE.
THAT'S THE LIKELY OUTCOME.
ONE OF THE KEY ISSUES, BY THE WAY, IS THAT RUSSIA AND CHINA DO NOT HAVE THIS DOCTRINE AND SO THERE'S ALWAYS THIS WORRY ABOUT THE DR.
STRANGE LOVE SITUATION WHERE YOU HAVE AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON WHICH MAKES A DECISION ON ITS OWN.
THAT WOULD BE TERRIBLE.
>> I'M SURE YOU LIKE ME KNOW THE MOVIE "2001 A SPACE ODYSSEY" AND THE QUESTION OF HOW -- A COMPUTER GETTING OUT OF CONTROL AND THE HUMANS HAVING TO TRY TO PULL THE PLUG ON IT.
DO YOU THINK WE OUGHT TO HAVE A KILL SPICH, A WAY TO PULL THE PLUG AND IN WHAT SITUATIONS WOULD WE USE THAT FOR IN OUR AI SYSTEMS.
>> WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE THEM.
ONE THOUGHT EXPERIMENT IS IMAGINE EVERYONE IN AMERICA HAS A RED BUTTON THAT YOU PRESS THAT DISCONNECTS THE HOUSE FROM THE INTERNET.
YOU SAY, WELL, THAT'S STUPID.
IMAGINE A FUTURE SCENARIO WHERE AN ADVERSARY HAS TAKEN OVER THE INTERNET AND IS USING IT TO ATTACK YOUR HOUSE.
ALL OF THESE QUESTIONS OF NATIONAL SECURITY THAT BECOME VERY PERSONAL, SO I THINK THAT YOU WILL SEE FIRST OBVIOUSLY HUMAN MONITORING SYSTEMS, BUT YOU WILL HAVE DEFENSIVE SYSTEMS ALONG THE LINES OF THE RED KILL BUTTON FOR THAT REASON.
>> AT THE END OF YOUR BOOK YOU SAY THAT YOU HAVE HIGH CONFIDENCE THAT WE CAN IMBUE OUR MACHINES WITH THE INTRINSIC GOODNESS THAT IS IN HUMANITY.
FIRST OF ALL, ARE YOU SURE THAT ALL OF HUMANITY HAS INTRINSIC GOODNESS, AND WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO DON'T?
>> LOOK, I THINK WE ALL UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS SOME PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE TRULY EVIL, TERRORISTS, SO FORTH AND SO ON.
THE GOOD NEWS IS THE VAST MAJORITY OF HUMANS ON THE PLANET ARE WELL-MEANING, SOCIAL HE CREATURES, THEY WANT THEMSELVES TO DO WELL AND THEY WANT THEIR NEIGHBORS AND ESPECIALLY THEIR TRIBE TO DO WELL.
I SEE NO REASON TO THINK THAT WE CAN'T PUT THOSE RULES INTO THE COMPUTERS.
ONE OF THE TECH COMPANIES STARTED ITS TRAINING OF ITS MODEL BY PUTTING IN A CONSTITUTION AND THE CONSTITUTION WAS EMBEDDED INSIDE OF THE MODEL OF HOW YOU TREAT THINGS.
NOW, OF COURSE, WE CAN DISAGREE ON WHAT THE CONSTITUTION IS, BUT THESE SYSTEMS ARE UNDER OUR CONTROL, THERE ARE HUMANS WHO ARE MAKING DECISION TOSS TRAIN THEM AND FURTHERMORE THE SYSTEMS THAT YOU USE, WHETHER IT'S ChatGPT OR GEMINI OR COD OR WHAT HAVE YOU HAVE ALL BEEN CAREFULLY EXAMINED AFTER PRODUCED TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY HORRIFIC ROUGH EDGES.
HUMANS ARE DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN THE CREATION OF THESE MODELS AND HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT NOTHING HORRENDOUS OCCURS AS A RESULT OF THEM.
>> ERIC SCHMIDT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU AGAIN.
>>> AND NOW BACK TO OUR TOP STORY OF SYRIA.
THE YEARS' LONG WAR WAS ONE OF THE HARDEST CONFLICTS TO COVER AND SOME OF THE BEST STORY TELLING CAME FROM SYRIAN JOURNALISTS.
A WOMAN THAT PICKED UP HER CAMERA AT THE START OF THE CONFLICT OF THE ARAB SPRING.
SHE PROVIDED A WINDOW INTO THE WAR RAVAGED CITY OF ALEPPO AND MADE IT INTO A FEATURED DOCUMENTARY WITH ANOTHER DOCUMENTARY.
IT'S A LETTER TO HER INFANT DAUGHTER AND IT WON THE BEST DOCUMENTARY PRIZE AT CANNES.
HERE IS A TRIP FROM THE TRAILER.
>> SAMMA.
SAMMA.
SAMMA.
[ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >>> CHRISTIANE SPOKE TO HER AND HER CO-DIRECTOR IN 2019 IN HER LONDON STUDIO.
>> YOU CALL THIS FOR SAMMA.
HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?
WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO TAKE THIS FORMAT FOR YOUR DAUGHTER?
>> I KNEW THAT FROM THE BEGINNING, BUT WE WERE DISCOVERING THIS THROUGH THE PROCESS THAT WE DID LIKE FOR TWO YEARS.
WE FELT THAT ALL THE CONVERSATION THROUGH THE MATERIALS WAS TELLING EVERYTHING THAT THIS IS FOR SAMMA.
THERE WAS A NATURAL CONVERSATION, EVERYONE AROUND THE WORLD, EVERY ONE OF US SPEAKS WITH OUR CHILD EVEN IF WE ARE STILL JUST PREGNANT.
THIS WAS KIND OF THE CONVERSATION, A NATURAL ONE WHICH IT WAS THROUGH THE MATERIAL ITSELF.
'TWAS MY DAUGHTER AND 'TWAS -- YOU'VE SEEN IT TOO.
>> THAT WAS THE FOOTAGE THAT IT WAS ABOUT AT HEART WAS THE RELATIONSHIP.
>> DID YOU MAKE A DECISION TO MAKE THAT AND TO KEEP GOING BACK AND FORTH?
IF YOU LOOK AT THE TRAILER AND OBVIOUSLY WE'VE SEEN YOUR REPORTING THROUGH THE WAR, IT IS RELENTLESSLY REALLY DARK.
IT'S A TERRIBLE WAR, THE SIEGE OF ALEPPO IS A TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE THING.
THE BODIES PILED UP.
WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU HAD TO TAKE ALL OF HER FOOTAGE AND MAKE IT PALATABLE?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE THING THAT WAS SO INCREDIBLE ABOUT WHAT THIS WOMAN ACHIEVED AND WHAT SHE MANAGED TO FILM WAS THE FACT THAT HER FOOTAGE THROUGHOUT THIS HUGE ARCHIVE WHEN I SAW IT FOR THE FIRST TIME I SAW THE FULL SPECTRUM OF HUMAN -- HUMAN LIFE IN THIS KIND OF CONFLICT SITUATION.
SO THE HORROR WAS THERE, THE HUMAN SUFFERING AS YOU TALKED B BUT ALSO SO MUCH JOY, SO MUCH ABOUT THE SPIRIT OF PEOPLE IN THESE KIND OF SITUATIONS.
SO IT WAS MORE JUST TRYING TO SAY LIKE THERE WAS SO MUCH, HOW CAN WE SQUEEZE ALL OF THIS LIFE THAT WAS IN THE FOOTAGE, IN THE ARCHIVE AND CONTAIN IT IN A MANAGEABLE FORM FOR THE CINEMA.
>> SO IN THE OPENING SORT OF NARRATION OF YOURS YOU SAY I MADE THIS FILM FOR YOU, YOU ARE ADDRESSING YOUR DAUGHTER.
I NEED YOU TO UNDERSTAND WHY ME AND YOUR FATHER MADE THE CHOOSES THAT WE DID, WHAT WE WERE FIGHTING FOR.
WHAT WERE YOU FIGHTING FOR?
I MEAN, THEN LATER ON IN THE FILM YOU SAY WILL YOU FORGIVE ME?
WILL YOU FORGIVE ME FOR STAYING AND, IN FACT, FOR LEAVING?
>> YEAH, IT WAS -- WE HAVE FEARS AS SYRIANS ALL THE TIME ABOUT OUR STORY WILL NOT BE TOLD IN OUR VOICES.
WE WERE ALL AGAINST THE ASSAD REGIME AND THE RUSSIANS WERE TRYING TO JUST DESTROY THE DREAM THAT WE HAVE OF FREEDOM AND OF DIGNITY AND LIKE WE WERE -- EVERY PARENTS IN SYRIA AND EVERYONE WHO LIVED THROUGH THE FIRST YEAR AND TWO YEARS OF THE PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATION WE HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE THAT MAYBE THIS WILL NOT BE REALLY REACHED TO THE NEXT GENERATION.
SO IN ONE PART OF THIS I REALLY WANTED TO TELL HER ABOUT LIKE WHAT WE WENT THROUGH, HOW WE STARTED THIS REVOLUTION AND WHY, AND IT'S NOT JUST FOR SAMMA, FOR ALL THE OTHER CHILDREN OF SYRIA AND THE WORLD OUTSIDE REALLY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE WENT THROUGH AS SYRIAN PEOPLE, DREAM OF FREEDOM.
>> LET'S TAKE A FEW OF THE ELEMENTS WE JUST SAW IN THE TRAILER BECAUSE, AGAIN, I THINK THE WORLD IS FAMILIAR WITH THE BARREL BOMBS AND THE CHLORINE GAS AND THE CHEMICAL WEAPONS AND THE SLAUGHTER IN THE HOSPITALS, BUT THEY'RE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE INDIVIDUAL STORIES OF THE FAMILY, YOUR NEIGHBORS, WHO YOU PROFILE, THE LITTLE BOY ON THE BALCONY WHO HAD HIS HAND -- HIS HEAD IN HIS HAND, AND HE WAS AFRAID THAT HE WOULD BE TAKEN AWAY FROM ALEPPO, RIGHT, THIS CITY UNDER SIEGE.
>> IT'S REALLY SO COMPLICATED TO UNDERSTAND LIKE HOW THE WORLD OUTSIDE COULD BE ACT FOR SOMETHING, IT'S MORE ABOUT LIKE UNFORTUNATELY NOT JUST LIKE THE BOMBING WAS FAMILIAR, ALSO BOMBING HOSPITALS, KILLING CHILDREN, ALL OF THIS STARTED TO BE AS NUMBERS ON THE NEWS OR FOR PEOPLE WATCHING LIKE THEIR NEWS AT HOME AFTER DINNER, AND ALL THESE THINGS WERE JUST LIKE COMING THROUGH THE MIND OF THE PEOPLE AND THEN JUST LIKE MOVE ON TO THEIR NORMAL LIFE.
I FELT THAT MAYBE THIS STORY IN THE PERSONAL WAY COULD REALLY AFFECT EVERY PARENTS, EVERY MOTHER, EVERY HUMAN BEING AROUND THE WORLD TO START TO THINK ABOUT ONE STEP FORWARD TO DO SOMETHING FOR THESE PEOPLE.
>> AND, EDWARD, YOU KNOW, WHY IT CAME OUT EVENTUALLY AFTER ALEPPO FELL AND SHE HAD -- YOU MANAGED TO BRING OUT HARD DRIVES AND HOURS AND HOURS -- HOW MANY HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF FOOTAGE WERE YOU LOOKING THROUGH?
>> EVERY 500 HOURS.
>> 500 HOURS.
>> YEAH.
>> SO IT WAS THE WHOLE STORY OF THE SIEGE.
>> THE WHOLE -- YEAH.
AND SHE HAD BEEN FILMING EVERY BITS AND BOB'S EVERY DAY PRETTY MUCH THROUGH FIVE YEARS.
IT WAS THROUGH THE SIEGE, THE VERY FIRST DAYS OF THE PEACEFUL PROTEST.
AN INCREDIBLE HUGE EXPANSE.
WE STARTED GOING THROUGH IT TOGETHER, I THINK WE NARROWED IT DOWN TO 300 HOURS THAT FELT DIRECTLY RELEVANT BUT THAT WAS STILL A HUGE AMOUNT OF FOOTAGE.
>> BECAUSE YOU HAD TO GET IT DOWN TO -- >> TO 95 MINUTES, YEAH, WHICH WAS QUITE A TASK.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK, EDWARD?
YOU HAVE BEEN A DOCUMENTARY PRODUCER, EDITOR, FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.
>> YEAH.
>> AND HERE YOU ARE WART NERD UP WITH HER WHO HAS COME OUT OF SYRIA AND HANDED YOU HER LIFE'S WORK AND YOU HAVE TO EDIT IT AND MAKE IT A STORY THAT MAY NOT HAVE EXACTLY BEEN WHAT YOU THINK IT MIGHT BE OR HOW YOU THOUGHT IT SHOULD UNFOLD.
GIVE ME THE CREATIVE PROCESS.
>> ACTUALLY THAT OPPORTUNITY TO COLLABORATE IN THAT WAY WAS AN HONOR FOR -- TO BEGIN WITH, BUT IT WAS ALSO MADE THE FILM AS STRONG AS IT IS BUT BOWS OF US WERE COMING FROM OUR OWN PERSPECTIVES.
I WAS TRYING TO THINK ABOUT WHAT TO SAY YOUR AVERAGE PERSON IN LONDON OR NEW YORK COMING OFF THE STREETS LIVING A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LIFE AND YOU'VE TAKEN THEM TO THE HEART OF ALEPPO AND HER LIFE.
HOW CAN YOU BRING THAT PERSON IN, HOW CAN YOU KEEP THEM WITH YOU ON THIS RE ROUGH STORY AND SHE WAS LOOKING FROM THE SYRIAN POINT OF VIEW, THE INSIDER POINT OF VIEW.
WE HAD A LOT OF REALLY ROBUST CONVERSATIONS.
>> I BET YOU DID, SOME CREATIVE, YOU KNOW, CONTESTS THERE.
>> BIG TIME.
>> THE FIRST AND REALLY THE MAIN THING WAS HOW WE WERE SO HONEST TO EACH OTHER AND WE WERE LIKE WHATEVER HIS THOUGHTS OR MY THOUGHTS, WE WERE REALLY SO HONEST AND LIKE WE TRUSTED EACH OTHER, WE TRIED TO WORK ON THIS FOR TWO YEARS AND AT THE END OF THE THING WAS LIKE BOTH OF US ARE SATISFIED ON THE STORY ITSELF AND OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED, SO IT WAS ALSO LIKE MY HONOR THAT WE HAVE THAT.
>> GREAT TO SEE THEM SITTING THERE WITH CHRISTIANE A FEW YEARS AGO.
>>> AND FINALLY, AFTER MORE THAN A YEAR IN RUSSIAN CAPTIVITY "WALL STREET JOURNAL" REPORT WERE EVAN GERSHKOVICH POSTS HIS FIRST ARTICLE WORKING WITH A TEAM OF COLLEAGUES HE INVESTIGATES HIS OWN DETENTION AND RELEASE, WRITING, I SET OUT TO IDENTIFY THE MAN WHO HAD TAKEN ME AND TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE SPY UNIT THAT HAD CARRIED OUT HIS ORDERS.
THE REPORT IDENTIFIES THE MAN ALLEGEDLY RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS CAPTIVITY, LIEUTENANT GENERAL DMITRI MANIAV LEADER OF THE DEPARTMENT FOR COUNTERINTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS CALLED THE DKRO.
WHAT'S PARTICULARLY REMARKABLE ABOUT THIS ARTICLE IS THAT IT IS UNREMARKABLE.
GERSHKOVICH IS BACK TO DOING WHAT HE DOES BEST AND THAT IS REPORTING ON RUSSIA.
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