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>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.
HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.
>> FOOD, SHELTER, BUT ALSO THE FUNDS TO REDEVELOP THE SYRIA PEOPLE CAN BELIEVE IN AGAIN.
>> HELPING THE COUNTRY MOVE ON.
BIG QUESTIONS FOR THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.
THE U.N.
RELIEF CHIEF TOM FLETCHER JOINS ME.
>> THEN.
PRESS FREEDOM UNDER TRUMP TO POINT OUT.
I ASKED THE FORMER EDITOR OF THE WASHINGTON POST WHY HE IS CONVINCED THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION WILL QUOTE GO OFF TO THE PRESS IN EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY.
PLUS.
>> THIS AREA WAS SO QUIET AND NOW WE DON'T KNOW IF SOMEBODY, IT CHANGED EVERYTHING.
>> NEW EVIDENCE ABOUT THE THE RINGLEADER, THE HUSBAND AT THE HEART OF IT.
RINGING OF HIS ELUSIVE ACCESS TO POLICE REPORTS.
ALSO AHEAD.
>> I BELIEVE WE AS AMERICANS ARE ENTITLED TO BE ABLE TO WALK DOWN THE STREET.
2.
-- WALKED DOWN THE STREET AND NOT AFRAID TO BE SHOT.
>> GHOST GUNS.
THE RISKS OF THESE UNTRACEABLE FIREARMS.
>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS STEPPED INTO SYRIA OCCUPYING EVEN MORE SYRIAN LAND SAYING THEY WILL STAY THERE UNTIL THEY CAN ASSURE ISRAEL'S SECURITY.
WHILE IN GAZA HAMAS IS A CEASE- FIRE HOSTAGE DEAL IS POSSIBLE AND THAT COMES AMID CATASTROPHIC DEFINITION OXIDANT IS STILL RAINING DOWN.
SYRIA'S NEW LEADER PUSHING FOR LEGITIMATE SEE ON THE WORLD HEAD OF HDS DESIGNATED TERRORIST GROUP BY THE U.S. HAS BEEN MEETING WITH UNITED NATIONS AND EUROPEAN OFFICIALS THIS WEEK.
AS AN ADVOCACY GROUP WARNS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF SYRIANS COULD BE BURIED IN MASS GRAVES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
THE UN'S MONETARY AND CHIEF IS IN DAMASCUS AND HE IS JOINING US.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
UNDER SECRETARY GENERAL.
>> THANK YOU AND BEST WISHES FROM DAMASCUS.
>> THANK YOU.
FREE DAMASCUS AS YOU MIGHT SAY BUT THE LEADERS ARE SAYING THAT IS WHAT WILL BE THEIR COMMITMENT.
WHAT ARE YOU HEARING?
THERE IS A PICTURE OF YOU SITTING IN THAT OFFICIAL RESIDENCE WITH HIM.
WHAT HAS HE SAID TO YOU AND IS IT COMFORTING?
>> I SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN THE LAST TWO DAYS WITH THE AUTHORITY.
INCLUDING AS YOU SAY, ASKING THEM SPECIFIC THINGS.
WE WANT TO KEEP THE BORDERS OPEN AND WE WANT TO GIVE SUPPORT TO ALL THOSE WHO NEED AND WE WANT REASSURANCES ON INTERNATIONAL LAW AND PROTECTION OF HUMANITARIAN WORKERS.
HE WAS REASSURING.
HE LISTENED VERY CAREFULLY AND HE MADE VERY CLEAR THAT THE NEW AUTHORITIES WERE COMMITTED TO SUPPORTING OUR WORK AND THAT IS THE COMMITMENT WE DID NOT HAVE TWO WEEKS AGO FROM THE OUTGOING ADMINISTRATION AND THAT IS ONE WE WANT TO WORK WITH.
>> CAN I ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE WRITTEN A LETTER IN YOUR CAPACITY AS U.N.
RELIEF CHIEF AND YOU DETAILED HAVE RUINED BASIC SERVICES WERE ALL ACROSS INCLUDING ITS LIVE IN OTHER PLACES.
OF COURSE HE WAS IN CHARGE BUT TALK TO ME ABOUT HOW MUCH NEEDS TO BE BUILT BACK AND YOU HAVE >> THOSE SERVICES ARE MASSIVELY DEGRADED SO THE PRIORITY IS TO GET HUMANITARIAN SUPPORT IN.
THEY NEED MEDICINE, THEY NEED FOOD, THEY NEED SHELTER, URGENTLY.
AND THEN THE PRIORITY HAS TO BE REBUILDING THE COUNTRY AND THOSE ESSENTIAL SERVICES HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY DEGRADED FROM DECADES OF ASSAD ROLE IN THE CONFLICT ITSELF.
THERE IS ENORMOUS WORK TO BE DONE THERE AND WHERE --WE ARE ASKING TO HAVE THEM SCALE UP.
WE ARE WORKING WITH THE HUMANITARIAN PARTNERS AND MOVEMENTS TO SCALE UP WHAT WE DO.
BUT TO DO THAT WE NEED INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES TO DO MUCH MORE AND DONORS TO STEP FORWARD AND DELIVER.
>> DO YOU THINK THEY WILL?
THERE IS SUCH A SENSE OF DONOR FATIGUE AND EVERYBODY RETREATING.
DO YOU THINK THAT GOOD WILL IS ACTUALLY THERE RIGHT NOW?
>> HAS YOU SAY PEOPLE ARE EXHAUSTED.
AND WE ARE IN AN ERA OF INTROSPECTION OF PEOPLE TURNING INWARD AND AWAY FROM THE PROBLEMS OF THE WORLD BUT AS YOU AND I KNOW THESE PROBLEMS WILL FOLLOW YOU INTO YOUR COUNTRY IF YOU DON'T DEAL WITH THEM.
AND YOU KNOW, WE NEED A RESET OF GLOBAL COMPASSION.
WE NEED TO FIND A WAY TO SUPPORT THOSE IN NEED ACROSS THE PLANET.
I JUST LAUNCHED AN APPEAL TO SUPPORT HUNDRED AND 90 MILLION PEOPLE WORLDWIDE WHO ARE IN DIRE, DIRE NEED.
MAYBE WE HAVE TO MAKE THE CASE IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
WE HAVE TO RENEW THE ARGUMENT FOR WHY WE NEED THE SOLIDARITY AND COMPASSION FOR THE WORLD'S MOST FORMAL PEOPLE BUT I BELIEVE IT IS NECESSARY BUT IF WE DON'T DO IT IT WILL COME BACK TO BITE US.
>> A REPORT JUST WENT OUT THAT THEY EXPECT AT LEAST 1 MILLION OF THOSE WHO FLED THE ASSAD REGIME AND THE CIVIL WAR ARE GOING TO COME BACK.
IN THE NOT- TOO-DISTANT FUTURE.
>> SO I PASSED MANY THOUSANDS DAMASCUS AND IT IS CLEAR FROM THOSE I SPOKE TO AND THOSE I MET IN DAMASCUS OF THE LAST TWO DAYS THAT MANY DO WANT TO COME HOME AND REBUILD THEIR LIVES BUT THEIR TOWNS AND CITIES HAVE BEEN SHATTERED.
THEIR COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN UTTERLY BROKEN AND THEY HAVE LOST LOVED ONES.
IT WILL BE VERY HARD TO BUILD THAT SOCIAL FABRIC LET ALONE THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT YOU NEED TO BUILD SECURITY, JUSTICE, OPPORTUNITY HERE.
I BELIEVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MORE WILL WANT TO COME BACK BUT IT IS VITAL THEY ARE ABLE TO DO SO WHEN IT IS SAFE.
WHEN THEY FEEL IT IS ABLE TO DO SO.
WHAT WE MUST NOT DO NOW IS CHANGE THE ENVIRONMENT SO PEOPLE IN EUROPE AND ACROSS THIS REGION FEEL FORCED TO RETURN BEFORE THEY ARE ABLE TO DO SO.
>> YOU HEARD ME PROBABLY READ THAT ONE OF THE ACTIVISTS REGARDING DISAPPEARED AND THE PRISONERS AND THEIR FAMILIES SUGGEST THAT HUNDREDS OF BURIED IN UNMARKED GRAVES AND MASS GRAVES AROUND THE COUNTRY.
IS THAT SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT?
I KNOW YOU ARE THE HUMANITARIAN CHIEF AND THERE IS A HUMAN RIGHTS SIDE TO IT BUT ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT MEETING PEOPLE'S LEGITIMATE DESIRE FOR ACCOUNTABILITY OR MAYBE EVEN HELP IN DIGGING?
>> WE DO.
PEOPLE FEEL ANGRY, THEY FEEL SCARED.
THERE IS GREAT FRUSTRATION AND DESPAIR REALLY AND WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THIS COUNTRY FOR DECADES NOW.
YOU HAVE BEEN REPORTING ON AND I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON IT FOR SO LONG AND IT IS PROBABLY EVEN WORSE THAN WE DARED TO IMAGINE.
SO THERE HAS TO BE SUPPORT FOR THOSE TRINITIES AS THEY SEEK THEIR LOVED ONES.
THERE ALSO HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE CRIMES THAT HAVE BEEN COMMITTED.
AND AS YOU SAY DIFFERENT BITS OF THE U.N. WILL LOOK AT THOSE ISSUES BUT I AM SURE THEY WILL REAL ENERGY AND ENGAGEMENT.
BECAUSE THE SYRIAN PEOPLE DESERVE TO MOVE ON FROM THIS CHAPTER AND THEY CAN'T JUST FORGIVE AND FORGET.
THEY HAVE TO HAVE A PROCESS OF RECONCILIATION, OF UNDERSTANDING AND OF REALLY FINDING OUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THEIR LOVED ONES.
OVER SUCH A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.
>> YOU HAVE PROBABLY SEEN IT THE PICTURES THAT WERE BROADCAST GOING TO THE PRISON AND YOU KNOW THERE WAS A WOMAN WHO DID A SORT OF WAVED A SHOE AT HIM IN OTHER WORDS EXPRESSING FRUSTRATION AND ANGER.
WHAT DO YOU AS THE U.N., AS THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO REGAIN TRUST?
>> NOBODY HAS WORKED HARDER TO TRY AND RESTORE A POLITICAL PROCESS AND HOPE TO SYRIA AND THAT IS WHAT I SEEN THEM DO OR THE LAST TWO DAYS IN DAMASCUS AND HE AND I JUST BRIEFED THE SECURITY COUNCIL FROM DAMASCUS ABOUT THOSE EFFORTS.
I THINK HE WOULD SAY AND I WOULD AGREE THAT IT IS A MEASURE OF HOW FRUSTRATED PEOPLE ARE.
THE ANGER IS BOILING OVER AND PEOPLE DO WANT SOMEBODY TO BLAME.
THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS LET SYRIA DOWN.
IT HAS TAKEN FAR TOO LONG TO END THIS CONFLICT.
WE HAVE TOLERATED THE INTOLERABLE FOR FAR TOO LONG.
IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE THEY FEEL ANGRY AND ARE LOOKING FOR PEOPLE TO BLAME FOR THE PAIN THEY HAVE GONE THROUGH FOR SO LONG.
IF WE WANT TO REBUILD THAT TRUST WE HAVE TO DELIVER.
ON THE POLITICAL PROCESS AND THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE WORKING SO HARD TO DO.
DELIVERING ON ACCOUNTABILITY, HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES WHICH MY COLLEAGUES ARE WORKING ON AND ON MY SIDE, MASSIVE SCALED UP HUMANITARIAN SUPPORT.
SOBEY SYRIANS CAN REBUILD THEIR LIVES AND WE CAN DELIVER THOSE ESSENTIAL SERVICES THEY NEED >> I STARTED BY SAYING THAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU THE FOREIGN MINISTER AND OTHERS OF THE MILITARY HAVE STEPPED IN AND ESSENTIALLY LAID CLAIM FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES.
THEY PORTRAY IT IN TERMS OF ISRAELI SECURITY BUT WE KNOW THERE ARE ALSO BALMY HUNDREDS AND BOMBING RAIDS BY ISRAEL AND MILITARY TARGETS, THE U.S. IS BOMBING, ISIS, HOW IS THAT BEING ACTUALLY TAKEN?
I AM SURE THEY TALKED ABOUT IT WITH YOU BUT HOW DO YOU PROVIDE AID WIND SO MUCH OF THE COUNTRY IS STILL BEING BOMBED FROM THE AIR?
>> IT MAKES OUR JOB MUCH, MUCH HARDER.
WE NEED UNIMPEDED HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE WHICH MEANS WE NEED THE CONFLICT TO STOP.
BUT ALSO WE NEED ANY MEASURES THAT IMPEDE INCLUDING SANCTIONS THAT IMPEDE THE DELIVERY OF ESSENTIAL HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES BE REMOVED.
SO IT DOES NOT HELP WHEN YOU HAVE REGIONAL COUNTRIES SEEING SYRIA AS AN EX-PLAYGROUND FOR A REGIONAL CONFLICT.
WE NEED EVERYONE TO RESPECT SOVEREIGNTY AND LET THE PEOPLE REBUILD THEIR COUNTRY.
IT WON'T BE EASY.
IT'LL BE VERY HARD AND PERILOUS.
MANY THINGS WILL GO WRONG AND THERE WILL BE CHALLENGES BUT THERE IS THIS BRIEF MOMENT HERE OF GENUINE HOPE AND I FELT LAST NIGHT AS I WALKED TO THE OLD TOWN OF DAMASCUS AND PEOPLE ARE SCARED.
THEY ARE FEARFUL.
THEY ARE ANXIOUS, BUT THERE IS AN AIR OF OPTIMISM AND HOPE IN THE AIR.
IF THEY ARE ABLE TO WORK TOGETHER AND FIND THE COURAGE TO COEXIST THEY CAN BUILD A FUTURE THEY HAVE WAITED FOR, FOR SO MANY DECADES.
>> SYRIA IS NOT A FUNDAMENTAL STATE IT IS A SECULAR STATE.
BUT THE NEW LEADERSHIP HAS HAD THEIR ROOTS IN FUNDAMENTALISM.
OF COURSE THEY HAVE DISASSOCIATED IT FROM THERE IT WAS QUITE A HARD LINE OPERATION THAT HE WAS IN CHARGE OF.
DID YOU GET A SENSE FROM HIM THAT WOMEN'S RIGHTS WOULD BE RESPECTED, MINORITY RIGHTS NOT JUST RELIGION BUT WHETHER IT IS GENDER OR SEXUALITY OR WHATEVER, THE VULNERABLE.
WOULD THEY BE RESPECTED?
WILL THEY BE ELECTIONS IN THE NOT-TOO-DISTANT FUTURE?
>> WE HAD A LOT OF CHALLENGING DISCUSSIONS AND YOU KNOW I WAS BLESSED FOR FIVE YEARS WORKING IN DOWNING STREET AT THE CENTER OF THE UK GOVERNMENT AND I KNOW HOW TOUGH IT IS EVEN IN NORMAL TIMES, FOR PEOPLE.
SO WE TALKED A LOT ABOUT HOW TO DO THAT AND HOW TO COMMUNICATE AS A LEADER.
BUT ALSO, AND THIS IS A KEY MESSAGE FROM THE U.N. AND ALL OF OUR MEETINGS WITH THE TRADITIONAL ADMINISTRATION IT IS VITAL THAT WE GET A INCLUSIVE GOVERNMENT THAT INCLUDES ALL SYRIANS IN THE HAS THE LEGITIMACY FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY AND ABLE TO MOVE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE FOR A DEMOCRATIC ELECTION THAT CAN REALLY RENEW CONFIDENCE.
I WAS REASSURED BY THE COMPHER -- CONVERSATION THAT THEY SEE THAT IS THE RIGHT DIRECTION OF TRAVEL TO EVEN WITH ALL THESE CHALLENGES THAT THEY FACE.
AND OF COURSE AT THE CENTER OF MY DISCUSSION IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT WOMEN AND GIRLS WHO ARE SO KEY TO THE HUMANITARIAN OPERATION ARE PROTECTED IN THAT SPACE FOR THEM TO LEAD IS PROTECTED.
BUT ALSO THAT THEY ARE GIVEN A STEAK IN THE FUTURE OF SYRIA AND I HAVE MADE CLEAR IN MY CONVERSATIONS THAT WHEN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES ARE MAKING ITS JUDGMENTS ON THE QUALITY OF GOVERNMENTS AND THE POTENTIAL OF THIS PARTNERSHIP WITH THE AUTHORITIES THAT RIGHT AT THE CORE OF THAT WILL BE THE WAY IN WHICH GRAHAM --WOMEN AND GIRLS ARE TREATED.
HUMANITARIAN SITUATION UNFOLDING IN GAZA AND HAS BEEN EVER SINCE THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACK.
YOU WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT AS WELL AND IT IS REALLY URGENT.
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON HOW TO BRING RELIEF THERE WERE THE ACTUAL GOVERNMENT OR THE MILITARY OF THE STATE IS HAMPERING THE DELIVERY OF AID?
AS WELL AS THE CONSTANT ASSAULTS FROM THE AIR?
>> I MEAN GAZA IS APOCALYPTIC RIGHT NOW AND IT IS A TERRIBLE PLACE TO BE A CIVILIAN.
AND IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE PLACE TO DELIVER HUMANITARIAN AID.
WE ARE ONLY GETTING A TINY FRACTION ZERO OF WHAT IS NEEDED AND WE ARE FACING A SPECTRUM OF STARVATION AGAIN.
DISEASE IS RAMPANT IN OUR TRUCKS ARE BEING LOOTED BARELY AS A CROSSOVER INTO GAZA AND IT IS AN INTOLERABLE ENVIRONMENT YET, OUR JOB AS HUMANITARIANS DESPITE THOSE CHALLENGES IS TO TO SAY WE ARE BARELY STANDING AND BARELY DELIVERING BUT WE HAVE TO KEEP TRYING BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR BUT I CANNOT PRETEND THIS IS EASY.
AND I PAY TRIBUTE TO MY COLLEAGUES AND HUMANITARIAN WORKERS WHO ARE GOING OUT DAY AFTER DAY.
>> TOM FLETCHER, U.N. HUMANITARIAN RELIEF CHIEF.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
YOUR FIRST INTERVIEW FROM DAMASCUS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> NEXT TO FRANCE ON THE LENGTHY MASS RAPE TRIAL THAT HAS SHOCKED THE WORLD.
ACCUSED OF ORGANIZING THE ABUSE OF HIS OWN WIFE, SHE HAS WAIVED HER RIGHT TO ANONYMITY AND HAS BEGIN OPENLY IN COURT TO SPEAK OUT AND CHANGE THE WAY THEY LOOK AT RAPE/ NONEXCLUSIVE ACCESS REVEALS EXACTLY HOW HER HUSBAND RANG THIS GANG OF RAPISTS.
>> I HAVE COME HERE TO RETRACE THE STEPS OF ALL THOSE MEN WHO VISITED HIS HOUSE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.
THIS CASE REALLY HAS CAPTURED THE WORLD ATTENTION WITH MANY PEOPLE ASKING WHY AND WE WILL FOCUS INSTEAD ON HOW HE LET THE MEN RIGHT HERE.
THE WAY HE COMMUNICATED IN THE TACTICS HE USED AND HOW HE CAME TO BE ON TRIAL FOR MASS RAPE AND DRUGGING HIS WIFE.
>> ADMITTED TO RECRUITING -- >> OUTRAGE ACROSS FRANCE.
>> VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN.
>> CNN HAS GAINED EXCLUSIVE ACCESS TO POLICE REPORTS WITH THOUSANDS OF MESSAGES THAT DOMINIQUE EXCHANGED.
HE DID NOT HAVE TO SEARCH FAR.
THEY ALL LIVE WITHIN A 30 MILE RADIUS OF HIS HOUSE.
THE HORROR STILL FELT BY LOCAL WOMEN.
>> THIS AREA WAS SO QUIET AND NICE AND NOW WE DON'T KNOW SOMEBODY WHO IS ONE OF THESE MEN.
IT CHANGED EVERYTHING.
>> FROM A FIREFIGHTER TO A JOURNALIST TO A NURSE, FROM 27 YEARS OLD TO 74 YEARS OLD, ALL THE MEN WERE CONNECTED BY ONE WEBSITE.
SHUT DOWN THIS SUMMER, THE CHAT ROOMS WERE EASY TO ACCESS.
IT WAS NOT BURIED IN THE DARK WEB AS ONE MAN ACCUSED SAID >> BUT BECAUSE OF SO-CALLED FIGHT WAS UNMODERATED IT BOASTED GLORIFYING SEXUAL VIOLENCE.
UNDER THE PSEUDONYM AVAILABLE PELICOT POSTED IN A CHAT ROOM WITHOUT HER KNOWLEDGE.
IT WAS THEN THAT MISOGYNY AND SEXUAL ABUSE WERE COMPLETELY NORMALIZED.
WELL PELICOT HAS PLEADED GUILTY MANY OF HIS CO-CONSPIRATORS SAY IT WAS ENOUGH.
PELICOT WOULD MOVE THE DISCUSSION TO SKYPE IN THE TRADED VIDEOS.
ACCORDING TO THE POLICE REPORT.
>> WE SAW THE WEBSITE.
>> INNOCENCE IN DANGER HAS BEEN CAMPAIGNING AGAINST THE STATE FOR YEARS.
>> THEY WENT TO THIS WEBSITE TO REALIZE.
>> Reporter: HE TOLD POLICE OVERTIME HE BUILT A NETWORK OF MEN.
>> THE PLACE WHERE THEY COULD MEET, WHAT THEY COULD WEAR, WHAT THEY COULDN'T WEAR.
>> HE ALLEGEDLY TOLD THE MEN WHAT DRUGS TO BUY AND HOW TO USE THEM.
THIS ALL WENT UNDETECTED FOR 10 YEARS.
>> PELICOT NEVER THOUGHT HIS TEXT MESSAGES WITH SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY AND PROBABLY THEY WOULDN'T HAVE IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE EVENTS THAT TOOK PLACE HERE ON SEPTEMBER 12th WHEN A SECURITY GUARD CAUGHT HIM RED- HANDED.
>> THIS IS A KIND OF WEBSITE THAT IF THERE IS DEMAND THERE WILL BE SUPPLY.
>> IN THE WAKE OF THE SITE DOWN, EXTRACTING DATA FROM JUST ONE OF THOSE WEBSITES.
AFTER GOING THROUGH ALMOST 6000 MESSAGES FROM A 24 HOUR PERIOD, WE FOUND A STRIKINGLY PATTERN OF MEN SHOWING EXPLICIT PHOTOS OF THEIR WIVES AND GIRLFRIENDS.
AND ASKING TO MOVE THE DISCUSSIONS TO PRIVATE MESSAGING PLATFORMS.
SOME MEN WENT AS FAR AS OFFERING UP THEIR MEN -- WIVES TO OTHER USERS BUT IT IS UNCLEAR THEY SET UP REAL LIFE ENCOUNTERS.
>> THERE ARE SOME WEBSITES THAT COULD BE THE NEW COCO.
HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?
>> WE EXPECT SOME LAWS WILL CHANGE, BUT I AM NOT SURE IF THAT'LL BE ENOUGH.
>> SPEAKING OUT, GISELLE PELICOT IS A BRAVE WOMAN IN THE LATEST IN THIS HARROWING STORY, HER HUSBAND, DOMINIQUE PELICOT FACES HIS VERDICT ON THURSDAY.
IN THE UNITED STATES THE PRESSES FACING LEGAL ASSAULT FROM THE INCOMING PRESIDENT.
HE IS SUING THE DES MOINES REGISTER PAPER OVER -- THIS IS HAPPENING IN AMERICA WHICH HAS CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTIONS FOR PRESS FREEDOM IN OTHER DEMOCRACIES AROUND THE WORLD DO NOT AND SOME OF THEM ARE COMING AFTER THE PRESS TOO.
IT IS A TREND THAT DEEPLY CONCERNS MY NEXT GUEST THE FORMER EXECUTIVE EDITOR OF THE WASHINGTON POST, MARTY BARON AND HE IS JOINING ANY --ME NOW FROM MASSACHUSETTS.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> LAYOUT HOW YOU THINK THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION CAN COME AFTER US.
IT IS US IN THE BIG SENSE.
WHAT TOOLS CAN I USE?
>> SURE, THEY HAVE A LOT OF TOOLS IN THE TOOLBOX AND I THINK THEY WILL USE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.
THAT IS ALREADY EVIDENT FROM THE MEASURES THEY ARE PROMISING TO TAKE.
I THINK THEY ARE SALIVATING FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO PROSECUTE JOURNALISTS FOR LEAKS OF SUPPOSEDLY NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION.
I THINK THEY HAVE ALREADY THREATENED TO REVOKE THE LICENSES FOR STATIONS AFFILIATED WITH SOME OF THE MAJOR NETWORKS.
THEY ARE ALREADY AS YOU MENTIONED, LIKELY TO SUE A LOT OF MEDIA OUTLETS FOR SUPPOSEDLY DEFAMATION AND OTHER SUPPOSEDLY OFFENSES.
I SUSPECT A LOT OF THE WEALTHY ALLIES OF DONALD TRUMP WILL UNDERWRITE THOSE LAWSUITS.
I SUSPECT THEY WILL DENY INFORMATION TO MAJOR MEDIA OUTLETS ROUTINELY.
I SUSPECT THEY WILL THREATEN APPETIZERS FOR MAJOR MEDIA ADVERTISERS AS WELL.
THEY WILL DO EVERYTHING TO UNDERMINE PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN THE PRESS TO FURTHER UNDERMINE PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN THE PRESS AND UNDERMINED ITS ECONOMIC STABILITY.
>> AND PROBABLY TO INTIMIDATE THE PRESS BY THIS RELENTLESS PURSUIT.
THE NOMINEE OF THE FBI SAID FAMOUSLY WE ARE GOING TO COME AFTER YOU ABOUT THE PRESS AND JUST RECENTLY DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF ABOUT SUING THESE ORGANIZATIONS WE JUST MENTIONED SAID THE FOLLOWING AND I WILL PLAY WHAT HE JUST SAID FROM MAR- A-LAGO YESTERDAY.
>> I FEEL I HAVE TO DO THIS.
I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BE THE ONE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OR SOMEBODY ELSE BUT I HAVE TO DO IT.
OF COURSE A LOT OF MONEY TO DO IT BUT WE HAVE TO STRAIGHTEN UP THE PRESS.
THE PRESS IS VERY CORRUPT.
>> THAT IS A HORRIBLE THING TO HEAR, FRANKLY THAT OUR PRICES HORRIBLY CORRUPT.
DO YOU THINK THAT LANDS WITH PEOPLE AND DESPITE ALL THE TOOLS AND MECHANISMS YOU JUST ENUMERATED, DO YOU THINK IT'LL BE SUCCESSFUL?
>> WELL, CERTAINLY THERE IS A LARGE SEGMENT OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WHO DO NOT HAVE CONFIDENCE IN MAINSTREAM PRESS.
AND I UNDERSTAND THAT BUT THERE HAS BEEN A DECLINE IN CONFIDENCE IN BOTH INSTITUTIONS IN OUR COUNTRY FROM THE PRESIDENCY TO THE CONGRESS TO BANKS TO MAJOR BUSINESSES IN THE COMMUNITY, RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS, PRETTY MUCH EVERYBODY IN THE PRESS IS IN THERE AND HAS SUFFERED A LOT.
SAY IS TO INTIMIDATE THE PRESS THAT I THINK MORE THAN THAT HE HAS SUGGESTED BY HIS COMMENT JUST YESTERDAY THAT HE WOULD LIKE TO USE THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT AGAINST THE PRESS.
AND JUDGING BY THE NOMINATIONS THAT HE SAID HE WILL MAKE, HE WILL USE THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT AGAINST THE PRESS.
I SUSPECT HE WILL EMBARK ON THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WILL EMBARK ON INVESTIGATIONS, HE WILL SEEK TO REVOKE, POTENTIALLY REVOKE THE LICENSES OF STATIONS AFFILIATED WITH THE MAJOR NETWORKS.
I THINK HE WILL ENGAGE IN A LOT OF MEASURES THAT WILL BURDEN THE PRESS AND THE INTENTION IS NOT TO NECESSARILY WHEN THESE CASES, IS TO INFLICT OR IMPOSE THESE HEAVY BURDENS, DEFENDING YOURSELF AGAINST LOSSES, INVESTIGATIONS, THOSE COSTS ARE ENORMOUS.
HE TALKS ABOUT THE COST OF BRINGING A LAWSUIT, THE COST OF IS ALSO A LOT AS WELL.
IN MANY STATIONS CAN'T AFFORD IT.
>> I WONDER IF YOU THINK IT'LL ALSO LEAD TO A MASS CENSORSHIP.
ELECTIONS LAWYER, POSTED AFTER THE ABC SETTLEMENT FOR $15 MILLION AND AN APOLOGY BY ABC AND GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS SAID KNEE BENDS, RING KISSED ANOTHER NEWS MEDIA OUTLET CHOOSES.
THEY SAID TRUMP WAS FOUND LIABLE FOR RAPE IN THAT CASE AND FOUND LIABLE FOR SEXUAL ABUSE.
YOU THINK ELECTION LAWYERS CHARACTERIZATION IS ACCURATE?
>> WELL I THINK IT TRENDS IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
I DON'T KNOW IF I WILL USE LANGUAGE QUITE THAT STRONG, BUT I THINK IT IS CLEAR I MEAN IN THE CASE OF ABC NEWS, THE JUDGE SAID IN THAT CASE THAT IT IS TRUE UNDER NEW YORK LAW THAT WAS NOT CONSIDERED TO BE RAPE AND ABC DID MAKE A MISTAKE IN THE WAY THEY CHARACTERIZED IT, BUT HE SAID IN COMMON PARLANCE IT WOULD BE CONSIDERED RAPE.
SO, THERE WAS A STRONG DEFENSE THAT ABC NEWS HAD IN THE CASE AND THEY PROBABLY HAD IT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.
I DON'T WANT TO SPECULATE A PROBLEM BECAUSE DISNEY'S PARENT COMPANY HAD OTHER INTERESTS IN MIND AND THAT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT THE OTHER NETWORKS TO BE AT A CONFLICT WITH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES JUST AS HE TAKES OFFICE.
WE HAVE SEEN THAT WITH OTHER NEWS ORGANIZATIONS AS WELL.
>> AND WE HAVE SEEN QUITE A LOT OF MEDIA IN THE TECH STREAMING TIGHTENS AND EVERYBODY MAKING SORT OF A KISS THE RING PROGRESS IN --PROGRESSION IN MAR-A-LAGO.
ON THE ONE HAND THERE IS A THOUGHT OF COMING AFTER THE PRESS FOR NATIONAL SECURITY AND ALL THOSE OTHER THINGS THAT LET'S FACE IT, EVEN OBAMA DID.
ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE IS THIS, WHICH IS WHAT DAVID AXELROD FORMER OBAMA MAJOR ALLY NEVER TRUMPER SAYING HE IS SUING THE DES MOINES REGISTER BECAUSE HIS POLE UNDERMINED IN HIS RESULTS.
THE PULITZER AND THEN HE SAID WELCOME TO HUNGRY FOLKS.
THERE ARE TWO ISSUES THERE.
THIS IS YOU KNOW, WHAT THEY DO IN LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES HERE IN EUROPE, BUT TWO, THESE ARE NOT CASES ABOUT NATIONAL SECURITY THEY ARE VANITY CASES.
THAT THE PEOPLE IN TRUMP JUST DON'T LIKE, HOW WILL THE COURTS TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY?
>> WELL, I HOPE THEY DON'T TAKE IT VERY SERIOUSLY.
I MEAN, FRANKLY, EVEN IN THE CASE OF NATIONAL SECURITY UNDER THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION THEY DID NOT PROSECUTE JOURNALISTS THEMSELVES.
THEY PROSECUTED INVESTIGATED LEAKERS AND NOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS PROMISING TO PROSECUTE THE PRESS AS WELL.
YOU KNOW, THAT IS JUST AN EFFORT OF INTIMIDATION, ONE MEASURE AFTER THE NEXT OF INTIMIDATION AND IMPOSING COSTS ON NEWS ORGANIZATIONS I DON'T NEED THE COURTS, I HOPE THE COURTS DON'T TAKE THESE THINGS SERIOUSLY, BUT YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT THE COURT SYSTEMS THESE DAYS.
>> YOU NEVER KNOW IS EXACTLY, I JUST WANT TO PLAY WHAT STEVE BANNON HAS SAID.
AGAIN, USING THIS HUNGRY ANALOGY.
THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.
BACK TO HIS OLD SPINE WITH THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA.
>> THEY NEVER IN 1 MILLION YEARS THAT WE WOULD BE BACK IN POWER.
AND THEY NEED TO LEARN WHAT POPULIST, NATIONALIST POWER IS ON THE RECEIVING END.
I MEAN, INVESTIGATIONS, TRIALS, AND THEN INCARCERATION AND I AM DECIDING ABOUT THE MEDIA.
>> I MEAN THAT REALLY DOES EXTEND IT, VERY, VERY DRAMATICALLY.
INVESTIGATIONS, YOU KNOW, CONVICTIONS, INCARCERATIONS FOR THE MEDIA.
WE HAVE DISCUSSED WHAT THEIR AIM IS BUT THE STUFF THAT HAPPENED IN OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND RIGHT NOW, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE PROBABLY READ IT BUT THE COLUMBIA JOURNALISM REVIEW, THERE IS THE VETERAN JOURNALIST WHO RESIGNED BUT SHE IS TALKING ABOUT HOW ITALY'S RIGHT-WING PRIME MINISTER IS TRANSFORMING PUBLIC MEDIA THERE.
SHE SAYS AND I'M GOING TO QUOTE, IN EUROPE ONE OF THE KEY PRIORITIES OF NEO- AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT IS TO RESTRICT PRESS FREEDOM PARTICULARLY TARGETING PUBLIC AND ALTERNATIVE MEDIA.
THIS TREND BEGAN IN EASTERN GRADUALLY SPREAD WESTWARD.
ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE TRUMP IS A CENTRAL FIGURE IN THIS MOVEMENT SERVING AS BOTH A MODEL AND INSPIRATION.
SO, THAT IS A FACT.
WE SEE IT AND WE ARE SEEING IT.
WHAT CAN WE DO?
WHAT CAN THE PUBLIC MEDIA AND MAINSTREAM MEDIA DO ABOUT THIS?
>> WELL, YOUR PREVIOUS GUEST TALKED ABOUT STANDING AND DELIVERING, I THINK WE NEED TO DO OUR JOBS.
WE NEED TO DELIVER FOR THE PUBLIC AND GET THE PUBLIC THE INFORMATION THEY NEED AND DESERVE TO KNOW.
WE NEED TO DO THAT EVERY SINGLE DAY.
WE NEED TO DO IT WITHOUT FEAR AND CERTAINLY WITHOUT FAVOR.
SO, THAT IS WHAT WE CAN DO.
WE NEED TO SHOW OUR VALUE.
AND LOOK, THE FOUNDERS OF THIS COUNTRY, JAMES MADISON WHO WAS AUTHOR, THE PRINCIPAL AUTHOR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT TALKED ABOUT THE NEED FOR FREELY EXAMINING PUBLIC CHARACTERS AND MEASURES.
SO EXAMINING MEANS LOOKING BEHIND THE CURTAIN AND BENEATH THE SURFACE AND THAT IS WHAT WE WE AREN'T STENOGRAPHERS AND AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE.
THE FOUNDERS OF THIS COUNTRY WANTED IT TO BE A CHECK ON POWER, POLITICALLY POWER SPECIFICALLY.
THERE IS NOBODY POWERFUL THAN THE PRESIDENT.
WE HAVE TO REPORT ON HIM WITHOUT FEAR AND CERTAINLY HONESTLY BUT WITHOUT FEAR AS WELL.
>> AGAIN AS YOU SAID IS OFTEN BOILED DOWN TO A MONEY ISSUE AND THE OWNERS DON'T WANT TO GET ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THAT.
JUST LOOK AT THE PETE HEGSETH DRAMA OVER THE NOMINATION.
THERE WERE REPUBLICAN SENATORS WHO QUESTIONED WHETHER THEY COULD SUPPORT THAT APPOINTMENT AND THEN THE MEGA SWARM CAME OUT THEM AND ALL OF IT HAS SHIFTED IN TERMS OF EMPHASIS AND THEY MAY BEND BECAUSE OF THAT.
I THINK THAT MAYBE JOURNALISTS AND OWNERS MAYBE WORRYING ABOUT THE MEGA SWARM TOO.
SO WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE FACT THAT THE RIGHT-WING MEDIA SPHERE AS IT IS DESCRIBED, HAD DISPROPORTIONATE SUCCESS DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
WHETHER IT IS FOX NEWS, RADIO STATIONS, THE TRENDING PODCASTERS, THEY HAD A HUGE INFLUENCE AND MORE MAINSTREAM OR EVEN LIBERALLY THEY WERE LEFT THINKING HOW DO WE COMPETE WITH THIS ALTERNATIVE MEDIA SPHERE?
>> WELL YEAH, CERTAINLY WE HAVE MUCH MORE FRAGMENTED MEDIA IN OUR ENVIRONMENT TODAY.
IT HAS ITS ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES.
I THINK THE ELECTION WAS A REFERENDUM ON THE MEDIA.
I DON'T THINK IT WAS A RESULT OF THE DIFFERENT POWERS OF THE MEDIA OUTLETS.
I THINK IT WAS A RESULT OF PEOPLE'S CONCERNS ABOUT REAL ISSUES.
ISSUES LIKE INFLATION WHICH THEY SAW AS BEING OUT OF CONTROL.
THE COST OF THE GROCERIES, COST OF GAS, COST OF BUYING A HOME, COST OF ACQUIRING A MORTGAGE FOR THE REAL CONCERN ABOUT LEVEL OF INTEGRATION AND UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRATION ACROSS THE SOUTHERN BORDER.
THE U.S. AND THE U.S. INVOLVEMENT WITH UKRAINE AND THE COST THE U.S. WAS HAVING THE BEAR.
I THINK THERE ARE REAL ISSUES THAT PLAY IN THE SELECTION AND THAT IT WASN'T JUST A MATTER OF THE RIGHT-WING INFLUENCERS OR THE DIMINISHED POWER OF TRADITIONAL MEDIA.
I THINK THERE WAS A LOT MORE PLAY HERE AND I WOULDN'T VIEW IT AS A REFERENDUM ON THE MEDIA.
>> I AM JUST GOING TO POINT OUT THAT THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISES AND I TALKED TO THE GENERAL ABOUT THIS, THEY SAID THERE IS A LOT OF FALSEHOOD BEING SPREAD AROUND BY SOME REPUBLICANS ABOUT THE COST.
THE COST OF SUPPORTING UKRAINE'S DEFENSE IS MUCH LESS THAN THE COST OF HAVING TO FIGHT A WAR AGAINST RUSSIA IF IT COMES TO THAT.
I AM JUST PUTTING IT OUT THERE BECAUSE IT IS BEING DISTORTED AND THAT IS HOW PEOPLE GET THEIR INFORMATION AND IT IS WRONG TO GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM THOSE DISTORTED FACTS.
THAT IS ALL I'M GOING TO SAY ABOUT THAT.
NOW, JEFF BEZOS WHO OWNS THE WASHINGTON POST FAMOUSLY DECLINED TO IMPOSE ANY CANDIDATE.
I KNOW YOU HAVE CRITICIZED IT BEFORE AND MAYBE YOU STILL DO, BUT DO YOU THINK THAT IS THE WAY TO GO?
DO YOU HAVE A TIMING ISSUE WITH THAT OR DO YOU THINK IT IS JUST AGAIN, BENDING THE KNEE IN THIS CASE?
>> YES, I THINK IF YOU WERE GOING TO MAKE THIS DECISION A YEAR AGO, TWO YEARS AGO, THREE YEARS AGO, I WOULD HAVE SAID IT IS A PROFESSIONAL --PERFECT AND REASONABLE DECISION TO MAKE.
DONALD TRUMP WHO HAS SAID THROUGHOUT HIS CAMPAIGN THAT HE WILL SEEK VENGEANCE ON HIS POLITICAL ENEMIES AND JEFF BEZOS HAS ALWAYS BEEN SEEN AS A POLITICAL ENEMY BY DONALD TRUMP.
FOR ONE REASON AND ONE REASON ONLY AND THAT IS THE COVERAGE OF THE WASHINGTON POST.
SO I THINK THIS WAS NOT A BEING NOT AN ENDORSEMENT TO ESTABLISH TRUST WITH READERS AND ASSERT THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THEY HAVE BEEN DOING PRESIDENTIAL ENDORSEMENTS FOR ALMOST 50 YEARS AND NEEDED TO DO OTHER POLITICAL ENDORSEMENTS.
SO I DON'T THINK THIS WAS A REASON FOR THE DECISION.
I THINK IT WAS A RATIONALIZATION OF A DECISION THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN MADE AND THAT HAD BEEN MADE BECAUSE OF THE PHASES OTHER COMMERCIAL INTEREST PARTICULARLY CLOUD COMPUTING BUSINESS OF AMAZON IN THE COMMERCIAL SPACE ENTERPRISE CALLED TO ORIGIN.
WHICH HE OWNS 100%.
>> REALLY FASCINATING, MARTY BARON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR VALUABLE PERSPECTIVE.
>> NOW, IN MADISON, WISCONSIN FAMILIES ARE REELING FROM THAT DEADLY SCHOOL SHOOTING WHICH KILLED THREE PEOPLE AFTER A 15- YEAR-OLD FEMALE STUDENT OPENED FIRE ON MONDAY.
THE LATEST TRAGIC VIOLENCE IN AMERICA AND COMES AS ANOTHER THIS SO-CALLED USE OF GHOST GUNS.
THE NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT IS INVESTIGATING THE POSSIBILITY OF ONE OF THOSE BEING USED IN THE RECENT MURDER OF THE UNITED HEALTHCARE CEO.
OUR NEXT GUEST IS AN EXPERT ON THIS TOPIC.
CHRIS BROWN, PRESIDENT OF THE NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION AND SHE IS JOINING HARI SREENIVASAN TO LAY OUT HER ARGUMENT FOR BALANCING SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS WITH GUN REFORM.
>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
CHRIS BROWN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
EARLIER THIS MONTH WE HAD A FATAL SHOOTING IN NEW YORK CITY THAT CAUGHT NATIONAL ATTENTION BECAUSE THE UNITED HEALTHCARE CEO WAS GUNNED DOWN AS A GHOST GUN.
JUST SET THE TABLE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT KNOW WHAT THESE ARE BUT WHAT IS SO DIFFERENT ABOUT THEM?
>> GHOST GUNS ARE PARTS OF GUNS THAT ARE UNTRACEABLE.
BEFORE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ACTED MOST RECENTLY THEY HAD BEEN SOLD IN KITS WITH NO BACKGROUND CHECKS AT ALL.
JUST TO GIVE YOU A SENSE OF WHAT THAT MEANS.
IT IS LIKE BUYING SOMETHING FROM IKEA EXCEPT EASIER.
SO THERE WERE FOLKS WERE BUYING THESE KIDS WITH NO BACKGROUND CHECK AND PUTTING TOGETHER A FULLY FINISHED FIREARM IN LESS THAN ONE MINUTE.
THESE KIDS HAD PROLIFERATED ACROSS THE COUNTRY UNTIL PRESIDENT BIDEN JUST RECENTLY REQUIRED BACKGROUND CHECKS FOR THESE KINDS OF GHOST GUNS.
>> SO MOST GUNS, THAT YOU GO TO A STORE, DEPARTMENT STORE GUN STORE AND BUY, THEY ALL COME WITH A SERIAL NUMBER THAT IS ENGRAVED?
THAT IS SOMETHING ALL GUN MANUFACTURERS HAVE AGREED ON IF THEY WANT TO SELL WEAPONS IN THE UNITED STATES, RIGHT?
>> THAT IS CORRECT.
IT IS PART OF THE GUN CONTROL ACT.
THE FEDERAL LAW THAT ESTABLISHED THE SERIALIZATION OF FIREARMS AGAINST THE COUNTRY AND ESTABLISHED THAT A LICENSE IS REQUIRED FROM A LICENSED DEALER IN ORDER TO SELL A FIREARM.
>> SO, IF THESE GUNS, THESE GHOST GUNS DID NOT REQUIRE A SERIAL NUMBER, THERE IS ESSENTIALLY NO WAY TO TRACE WHERE THAT GUN CAME FROM.
IS THERE SOME LEGAL NOTION THAT LOOK, HE HAD GUNS IN THIS COUNTRY BEFORE 1968 BEFORE SERIAL NUMBERS WERE REQUIRED AND THAT IS PART OF OUR SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT.
>> 100%, YEAH, YOU ARE HITTING ON EXACTLY THE ISSUE.
THE WAY WE THINK OF A GHOST GUN, IT IS A FUTURE CRIME GUN BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THESE GUNS.
THESE UN-SERIALIZED GUNS.
FOR EXAMPLE 6 YEARS AGO THERE WERE EIGHT GHOST GUNS RECOVERED, TWO YEARS AGO THERE WERE 538.
SO WE HAVE SEEN A PROLIFERATION OF THESE GUNS USED IN CRIME AND ABSOLUTELY WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAID TO ATF THREE YEARS AGO IS, LOOK, LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF FIREARM FROM 1934 THROUGH 1968.
YES, AFTER THEY FINISHED FIREARM, BUT IF SOMEBODY CAN BUY A GHOST GUN AND A KIT TO PUT TOGETHER A FULLY FINISHED FIREARM IN LESS THAN A MINUTE, THEN THAT KIT NEEDS TO BE REGULATED, JUST LIKE A REGULAR FIREARM AND IT NEEDS TO BE SERIALIZED.
THAT IS WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAID, THAT IS BEING LITIGATED AND BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT RIGHT NOW.
>> WHAT WERE THOSE ARGUMENTS IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT LIKE?
I KNOW THIS IS SORT OF TEA LEAF READING, BUT WHAT IS THE COURT LIKELY TO DO ABOUT IT?
>> IT WAS INTERESTING.
THE SUPREME COURT HAS DECIDED A LOT OF GUN CASES RECENTLY.
AND NOT ALL OF THEM TO OUR LIKING IN TERMS OF PUTTING SAFETY FIRST AND ENDORSING WHAT WE VIEW AS APPROPRIATE IN REGARDS TO THE SECOND AMENDMENT.
IF YOU READ TEA LEAVES AND YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT WERE ASKED BY SOME OF THE MORE CONSERVATIVE JUDGES IS SKEPTICISM OF THE ARGUMENTS FROM THOSE WHO ARE PUSHING OVERTURNING THE RULE.
THEIR STRONGEST ARGUMENT SEEMS TO BE THAT HOBBYISTS BY THESE KITS AND THE LIKE ASSEMBLING FIREARMS AND THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A RIGHT TO ASSEMBLE YOUR OWN FIREARM, BLACKSMITHS DID IT IN COLONIAL AMERICA AND INDIVIDUALS HAVE A SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT TO PURSUE THESE KINDS OF HOBBIES.
IT DID NOT SEEM THAT ANY OF THE JUSTICES REALLY FELT STRONGLY ABOUT THAT ARGUMENT.
WHEN YOU WEIGH IT AGAINST THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE BEING KILLED WITH THESE GHOST GUNS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
>> SO IS THERE KIND OF, ANY KIND OF A PLACE NOW WHERE THERE IS A RESTRICTION ON YOUR ABILITY TO PRINT THESE THINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE?
BECAUSE THE PARTS FROM THESE GUNS CAN COME FROM 3-D PRINTERS THAT ARE YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE NOT ILLEGAL.
>> NO, THAT'S A GOOD POINT, RIGHT?
BECAUSE SOME OF THE REPORTING ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR SHOOTER IN NEW YORK INDICATES THAT HE PRINTED AT LEAST PARTS OF THE FIREARM FROM 3-D BLUEPRINTS ONLINE, NOT TECHNICALLY THOSE BLUEPRINTS ARE ONLY SUPPOSED TO BE ACCESSED IF YOU HAVE A SPECIAL LICENSE THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE.
HOWEVER, DURING THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, A INDIVIDUAL MADE THESE BLUEPRINTS AVAILABLE ONLINE AND WE SOUGHT TO GET THOSE BLUEPRINTS FROM SPREADING ACROSS THE U.S.
EASILY.
THAT WAS LITIGATED IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BASICALLY ABANDONED, ALLOWING THESE BLUEPRINTS TO PLAY OPERATE BUT EASY FOR THAT TO HAPPEN AS WE SEE IN THESE BLUEPRINTS AS YOU SEE ARE AVAILABLE TO CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO ARE INDUSTRY ENDS AND TRY AND CIRCUMVENT THE LAW.
THAT IS WHY THEY SUPPORT LEGISLATION PENDING IN CONGRESS THAT HAS BEEN PENDING FOR SEVERAL YEARS TO ENSURE THAT THESE 3-D BLUEPRINTS ARE NOT PUBLICLY AVAILABLE.
IT IS VERY DANGEROUS TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY ARE.
>> THAT SEEMS LIKE A DIFFICULT TASK.
YOU ARE LITERALLY TRYING TO SAY HOW TO KEEP BLUEPRINTS OFF THE INTERNET.
HOW DO YOU DO THAT.
BECAUSE ANY KIND OF BUMP INTO THE KIND OF FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS AS WELL.
THIS IS OUR INFORMATION, WE HAVE ALL THIS INFORMATION THAT EXISTS ONLINE.
I SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIND THAT I BE ABLE TO PUBLISH THAT IF THAT IS THE CASE.
SO HOW DO YOU TRY AND THREAD THE NEEDLE ON THIS WHERE YOU DON'T WANT TO FOUL OFF THE BOTH FIRST AND SECOND AMENDMENTS?
PHILOSOPHY IS ABOUT THE SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT THAT WE WANT IN THE U.S. AND CERTAINLY THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS PART OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS AS YOU MENTIONED AND SO IS THE FIRST.
AND THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS THAT ARE OVERARCHING RIGHTS THAT GIVE LIFE TO ALL OF THESE OTHER RIGHTS.
WE DON'T WANT A SECOND AMENDMENT THAT SWALLOWS EVERY OTHER RIGHT THAT WE AMERICANS HOLD DEAR.
PART OF THIS IS UNDERSTOOD THROUGH EVERY WEIGHING IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS.
I CAN'T GO TO THE THEATER AND YELL FIRE, RIGHT?
THAT HAS LONG BEEN UNDERSTOOD.
SO WE HAVE TO BALANCE RIGHTS AND EASE OF TECHNOLOGY AND ALL OF THESE BENEFITS WITH THE REAL SOCIAL HARMS THAT CAN COME WITH CERTAIN ASPECTS AND CERTAINLY THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE WHERE WE WOULD SAY PUBLIC INTEREST SHOULD NOT BE OPERATING 3-D PRINTING OF FIREARM PARTS.
>> THE ATF IS CURRENTLY ENFORCING THIS IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT, DOES THAT GO FAR ENOUGH?
>> NO.
LET ME EXPLAIN WHAT THE RULE DID.
THE RULE SAID THAT GHOST GUN KIDS HAVE TO BE SUBJECT TO A BACKGROUND CHECK BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WHAT WE WERE SEEING HIS HUGE NUMBERS OF THESE UN- SERIALIZED KITS, GUNS, SHOWING UP ON CRIME SCENES.
WHY IS THAT?
BECAUSE IF YOU CAN'T PASS A BACKGROUND CHECK, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?
YOU ARE GOING TO BUY A KIT AND ASSEMBLE A GUN IN A FEW MINUTES AND EVEN MAKE MONEY OFF OF DOING THAT.
SO THEY SAID HAS TO BE SUBJECT TO A BACKGROUND CHECK AND THE KIDS HAVE TO BE SERIALIZED.
SO IF THEY SHOW UP IN A CRIME, LAW ENFORCEMENT CAN DO ITS JOB.
WHEN IT DIDN'T DO IS REQUIRE A LICENSE PURCHASE ONE OF THESE KITS AND ENSURE THERE IS NO SECONDARY MARKET FOR THESE GHOST GUN KIDS IN THAT PROCESS, RIGHT?
TO BASICALLY MAKE IT THAT IT IS FULLY REGULATED.
THAT DID NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE JOE BIDEN WAS PULLING A THREAD THROUGH A VERY SMALL NEEDLE.
HIS AUTHORITY IN ORDER TO DO THIS WAS FOUND NOT A NEW LAW, BUT IN THE 1968 GUN CONTROL ACT.
CONGRESS, NEEDS TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM AND REALIZE 50 YEARS HAVE PASSED AND PASS LEGISLATION TO ENSURE ATF HAS FULL AUTHORITY TO REGULATE THIS MARKET.
ONLY THEN CAN WE BE SURE THAT WE HAVE A FULLY FUNCTIONAL SYSTEM WHICH BY THE WAY WE JUST FINISHED A POLL.
80% OF ALL AMERICANS BELIEVE WE NEED A STRONGER BACKGROUND CHECK SYSTEM IN THESE GHOST GUNS ARE A PART OF THAT.
>> DO WE HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MANY OF THESE TYPES OF WEAPONS EXIST TODAY?
BECAUSE IF IT IS NOT SERIALIZED, IF IT DOES NOT GO CHANNEL SO TO SPEAK AND IF THEY CAN BE PRINTED IN PARTS AROUND THE COUNTRY OR THE WORLD, HOW DO WE GOT A HANDLE ON HOW MANY THERE ARE?
>> IT IS VERY, VERY HARD.
IT IS NOT EASY TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.
WHAT WE DO KNOW IS WE HAVE SEEN A HUGE SPIKE, NOT JUST IN THE BALTIMORE EXAMPLE BUT IN EVERY CITY ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
WE HAVE SEEN HUGE SPIKES UP UNTIL THIS YEAR WHEN THE GHOST GUN RULE WENT INTO EFFECT.
WE SAW SOME OF THESE NUMBERS OF GHOST GUN RECOVERIES CUT IN HALF.
SO THE ROLE IS WORKING, BUT JUST TO GIVE YOU A SENSE OF SCOPE AND SCALE, FOUR YEARS AGO IN CALIFORNIA, I THINK IT WAS FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AGO.
40%, 40% OF ALL GUNS RECOVERED IN CRIME, IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA WERE GHOST GUNS.
UNFORTUNATELY, WE DON'T HAVE THE INFORMATION BECAUSE THIS IS REALLY A BLACK MARKET FOR FIREARMS IN THIS COUNTRY.
BUT THAT GIVES YOU SOME SENSE OF PERSONALITY AND THE EXPLOSION OF THESE FIREARMS WITHOUT APPROPRIATE REGULATION.
>> I WOULD SUSPECT AND CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, GUN ENTHUSIASTS ARE LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS, THEY WOULDN'T BE FOR GHOST GUNS AS WELL.
>> GENERALLY SPEAKING FOR THOSE AND I WILL TELL YOU ESPECIALLY THOSE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED TO GHOST GUNS.
WE ACTUALLY HAVE MANY CASES WHERE WE REPRESENT BOTH THE CIVILIAN AND LAW ENFORCEMENT WHO HAVE BEEN GUNNED DOWN WITH THESE TYPES OF FIREARMS.
SO YES, IT IS A VERY, VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION THAT ACTUALLY BELIEVES THAT THERE IS A SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT TO ACCESS GHOST GUNS AND THERE SHOULD BE NO REGULATION, ALMOST NOBODY BELIEVES THAT.
AND THAT INCLUDES TRUMP VOTERS BY THE WAY BASED ON THE POLLS WE HAVE.
OVER 70% OF TRUMP VOTERS WANT MORE REGULATIONS AROUND FIREARMS.
HE WAS NOT ELECTED WITH A MANDATE TO STRIP A REVERSE THESE KINDS OF PUBLIC SAFETY LAWS.
>> EARLIER THIS YEAR PRESIDENT TRUMP VOWED TO UNDO ANY EFFORTS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD MADE WHEN IT CAME TO GUN RESTRICTIONS.
HOW WOULD YOU ADVISE THE INCOMING PRESIDENT?
>> WHAT I SAW AND ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL WHEN I WATCHED PRESIDENT TRUMP SPEAK AND CERTAINLY IF I LOOK BACK AT SOME OF THE STATEMENTS HE MADE IN HIS FIRST TERM AS PRESIDENT, WHAT IS REALLY COMMUNICATING IS A DESIRE TO ENSURE THAT THERE IS EASY ACCESS TO FIREARMS, APPROPRIATELY REGULATED THOUGH, AND HE HAS OFTEN TALKED ABOUT THAT SO PEOPLE CAN OFTEN EXERCISE OR SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS.
I HAVE NEVER HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP SAY THAT WE SHOULD MAKE IT EASIER FOR CRIMINALS TO ACCESS FIREARMS OR FIREARM PARTS AND THAT IS WHAT HE WOULD BE DOING IF HE OVERTURNED HIS REGULATIONS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS PUT INTO EFFECT THAT DENYING CRIMINALS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.
EASY ACCESS TO UNREGULATED, AND SERIALIZED FIREARMS.
I THINK IT IS A PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD PROPOSITION AND ONE THAT AMERICANS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY REALLY BELIEVE IN.
THEY WANT A SYSTEM THAT WORKS.
THAT IS EFFECTIVE.
WE HAVE GONE A LONG WAY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.
>> OFTEN TIMES, WHEN THERE ARE POLICIES THAT ROLLOUT.
THERE IS KIND OF A LEGISLATIVE APPROACH.
THE JUDICIAL APPROACH AND THEN THE OLD-FASHIONED KIND OF LOBBYING THAT HAPPENS.
WE ARE GUN MANUFACTURERS IN THIS CONVERSATION?
>> THAT IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION.
SO, LEGACY MANUFACTURERS BEHIND THE SCENES, AT LEAST INDICATE TO US THAT THEY AREN'T SUPPORTIVE OF GHOST GUNS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY HOW YOUR HATING YOUR FINGER ON AN ISSUE, IT IMPACTS THE MARKET.
BUT SOME OF THE LEGACY MANUFACTURERS HAVE GONE TO THE GHOST GUN SPACE AND THEY ARE HELPING TO FINANCE OR HELP PROLIFERATE SOME OF THESE KITS THAT WERE MADE AVAILABLE.
NOW, A LOT OF THEM FRANKLY HAVE MOVED ON TO OTHER THINGS WITH THE BIDEN RULE.
BECAUSE WE HAVE SHUT DOWN, THEY HAVE LITIGATED A CASE.
I THOUGHT ABOUT BALTIMORE AND THE PROLIFERATION OF FIREARMS.
WE SHUT DOWN ONE OF THE MAJOR GHOST GUN DEALERS.
POLYMER 80 THAT WAS SUPPLYING VAST MAJORITY OF GUNS RECOVERED IN ULTIMA.
I THINK A LOT OF THE TIME THE AREN'T VOCAL ABOUT IT BUT THEY TOO ARE THE LEGACY MANUFACTURERS WOULD SUPPORT THE LEGAL MARKET FOR FIREARMS ARE NOT THE ILLEGAL MARKET FOR FIREARMS.
>> WORKING FOR DECADES NOW ON THIS TOPIC IN THIS ISSUE AND YOU KNOW, I HOSTED A CONVERSATION AFTERWARDS INCLUDING AT THE TIME PRESIDENT BIDEN AND RESIZING COLLECTIVELY WAS GOING TO BE CHANGED, THE DEATH OF 20 CHILDREN AND SIX ADULTS WOULD DO IT.
RIGHT?
BUT I WONDER, DO YOU SEE ANY KIND OF HOPE OF STRUCTURAL CHANGE HAPPENING IN THE HALLS OF CONGRESS OR ANY OTHER WAY WHERE WE CAN GET TOWARD MORE SENSIBLE REFORM THAT DOES THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY AND IT SEEMED TO INDICATE SUPPORT?
>> I DO HAVE AN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO IT AS A MOM.
I BELIEVE WE, AS AMERICANS ARE ENTITLED TO BE ABLE TO WALK DOWN THE STREET, TO DROP OFF HER KIDS US WILL NOT BE AFRAID THEY WILL BE SHOT.
THAT SEEMS LIKE A PRETTY FUNDAMENTAL THING TO ME, BUT I DO WANT TO NOTE AFTER THE AGONY OF SANDY HOOK IT TOOK QUITE LONGER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE BUT PRESIDENT BIDEN DIDN'T SIGN ONE OF THE MOST DRAMATIC FEDERAL AND THAT WAS MORE THAN 15 REPUBLICANS IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE SAYING YES TO EXPANDING BACKGROUND CHECKS.
TO ENSURE THERE IS FEDERAL FUNDING FOR EXTREME PROTECTION LAWS AND ENSURE THERE IS FEDERAL FUNDING FOR COMMUNITY VIOLENCE INTERVENTION.
BECAUSE BACK IN BRAND COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE HUGE EARLY AND DESPERATELY IMPACTED BY GUN VIOLENCE.
SO YOU HAVE MADE A LOT OF PROGRESS HERE BUT THERE IS MUCH MORE TO DO BECAUSE SADLY TODAY THESE GHOST GUN KITS ARE A BIG KILLER.
THERE ARE MANY THINGS WE CAN DO BECAUSE AMERICANS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY BELIEVE IN IS KIND OF VERY COMMONSENSE THINGS INCLUDING A VERY BASIC EXPANSION OF THE BRADY LAW.
ALL RIGHT?
THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN.
>> ALL RIGHT, CHRIS BROWN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> FINALLY, SCENES OF JUBILATION IN INDIA AS THE WORLD YOUNGEST CHEST CHAMPION RETURNS HOME TO A HERO'S WELCOME.
AT JUST 18 YEARS OLD, BRINGING HIS NEW TROPHY BACK TO WHERE HE LIVES.
AFTER WINNING HIS CONVERSATION --COMPETITION IN SINGAPORE LAST WEEK.
DOZENS OF FANS MOBBED HIM EVEN PERFORMERS ON STILTS TURNED OUT IN A CELEBRATION IT FOR A ROCK STAR.
AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN-UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.