December 18, 2019

TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AS SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE I SADLY OPEN THE DEBATE ON THE IMPEACHMENT OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

A DARK DAY IN WASHINGTON AS CONGRESS VOTES ON IMPEACHING AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT.

ANALYSIS WITH OUR PANEL OF EXPERTS.

PLUS WISCONSIN'S FORMER REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER.

WE TALK POLITICS AND VOTER PURGES.

I'M GOING TO FIGHT FOR HIM UP UNTIL THE MOMENT THAT YOU STICK THAT NEEDLE IN HIS ARM.

THE STORY OF A DEATH ROW PRISON WARDEN.

THEY JOIN US TO TALK ABOUT CLEMENCY.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

GLAD TO BE WITH YOU.

SO AS THIS HAPPENS, AS THIS UNFOLDS, AND AS WE GO TO PRESS IT HASN'T YET HAPPENED BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT IS FEELING?

PRESIDENT WHO LIKES THE ROUGH AND TUMBLE OF BATTLE WITH HIS OPPONENTS AND YET POSSIBLY THIS COULD BE A STAIN ON HIS LEGACY.

WELL, I THINK HE FEELS THAT THOSE ON THE LEFT HAVE BEEN AIMING TO DO THIS SINCE THE VERY DAY HE WAS ELECTED.

REMEMBER AL GREEN THAT SAID THEY HAVE TO IMPEACH HIM OR HE MIGHT GET REELECTED.

THIS IS HIS FOURTH ATTEMPT.

THESE ARE PEOPLE IN THE HOUSE.

DEMOCRATS THAT SAID NOW IN SOME CASES FOR YEARS SINCE HIS ELECTION THAT THEY NEEDED TO TAKE THIS ACTION.

YOU HAD PEOPLE ELECTED LAST FALL TALKING ABOUT IMPEACHMENT.

YOU HAD A SPEAKER THAT ACTUALLY ANNOUNCED AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY BEFORE SHE EVEN GOT THE TRANSCRIPT.

THIS IS A SHAM.

THIS IS SOMETHING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE PARTICULARLY IN BATTLEGROUND STATES LIKE WISCONSIN WILL SEE THROUGH.

I THINK THE DARK DAY IS NOT FOR THE PRESIDENT.

IT'S FOR PELOSI AND OTHERS IN THE HOUSE THAT WOULD TAKE OUR COUNTRY THROUGH THIS WHEN THEY REALLY DON'T HAVE A CASE.

IT'S ALL ABOUT POLITICS.

LET ME JUST ASK YOU BECAUSE I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU RAISED WHICH IS THE RECALL OF 2012.

BUT LOOK.

SOME OF THE PRESIDENT'S OWN APOINTEES.

PEOPLE THAT ARE CAREER FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICERS ACTUALLY MADE THE CASE IN FRONT OF THE WORLD AND IN FRONT OF CONGRESS AND THEIR TESTIMONY.

YOU HAD THE PRESIDENT'S OWN LAWYER REPEATEDLY SAY THAT HE HAD TO GET THE AMBASSADOR OUT OF THE WAY BECAUSE SHE WAS IMPEDING HIS ABILITY TO GATHER DIRT ON THE PRESIDENT, HIS CLIENT, THE PRESIDENT'S OPPONENT.

YOU HAD HIS OWN AMBASSADOR TO THE EU TALK ABOUT THERE WAS A QUID QUO PRO.

SO I KNOW THAT YOU THINK IT'S ALL POLITICS BUT IS THERE ANY PARTS OF THE FACTS THAT HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN PRESENTED THAT GIVE YOU PAUSE?

WELL, I THINK THE FACTS THAT HAVE BEEN LARGELY IGNORED HERE IN AMERICA AND ACROSS THE GLOBE IS IN FACT, THIS, JOE BIDEN AND HIS SON HUNTER BIDEN DID NOTHING WRONG THEN THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO POLITICAL, PERSONAL, FINANCIAL OR ANY OTHER VALUE TO PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.

IF THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG, WHICH MANY OF US CONTEND THAT THEY DID, IF THEY DID DO SOMETHING WRONG THEN I THINK IT'S COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE FOR ANY PRESIDENT WHETHER JOE BIDEN IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT OR NOT, FOR THIS PRESIDENT OR ANY OTHER NOW AND IN THE FUTURE TO SAY WE SHOULD LOOK INTO THIS AND WE SHOULD ACTUALLY ASK FOR ASSISTANCE FROM LEADERS LIKE THE LEADER OF UKRAINE WHERE THE VERY ACT WAS AT ODDS HERE.

REMEMBER JOE BIDEN DIDN'T JUST SAY THIS IN SOME TRANSCRIPT.

HE SAID IT OUT LOUD IN FRONT OF AN AUDIENCE.

YOU CAN YOUTUBE IT TODAY AND LOOK AT IT YOURSELF THAT THIS GUY HELD UP A BILLION DOLLARS WHILE HE WAS THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA UNTIL THAT COUNTRY FIRED A PROSECUTOR WHO WAS LOOKING INTO THE BUSINESS HIS SON WAS APART OF.

IF THIS ISN'T A PROBLEM FOR THE BIDENS THEN THERE'S NO POLITICAL VALUE.

IF IT IS A PROBLEM, THEN IT'S SOMETHING THE PRESIDENT SHOULD INDEED BE LOOKING INTO.

ARE YOU CONCERNED AND AS YOU KNOW AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT ALL THE INVESTIGATIONS INTO WHAT THE BIDENS HAVE DONE OR HAVEN'T DONE, DESPITE WHAT MANY BELIEVE IS THE APPEARANCE OF A CONFLICT OF INTEREST BUT THERE'S BEEN NO EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT THEY DID ANYTHING WRONG.

TO THE CONTRARY, THE UKRAINIANS SAY THAT THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION REALLY WERE THE ANTI-CORRUPTION CRUSADERS IN UKRAINE.

BUT BEYOND THAT.

ARE YOU CONCERNED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP ASKING FOR A FAVOR NO MATTER HOW YOU FRAME IT LEADING TO FOREIGN INTERFERENCE YET AGAIN IN AN AMERICAN ELECTION?

THAT'S JUST A FALSE CLAIM.

THAT'S JUST A COMPLETELY FALSE CLAIM.

THERE WAS NO -- THE POINT WAS NOT ACCURATE.

HE ASKED THEM TO LOOK INTO THE ISSUE THAT WAS RAISED.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT HE DID OR HE DIDN'T.

IF THE BIDENS DID NOTHING WRONG THEN THERE'S NO POLITICAL VALUE.

HE DIDN'T ASK THEM TO CREATE SOMETHING OR MAKE SOMETHING UP.

CAN YOU GO PRETEND THAT THIS HAPPENED.

THERE'S NO POLITICAL VALUE.

THERE'S NO PERSONAL VALUE.

THERE'S NO VALUE WHATSOEVER.

IF ON THE OTHER HAND THE BIDENS DID DO SOMETHING WRONG WHICH MANY PEOPLE INCLUDING MYSELF BELIEVE AT LEAST THERE'S THE POSSIBILITY THAT THEY DID SOMETHING WRONG THEN THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE PRESIDENT SHOULD BE LOOKING INTO BOTH HERE AND ABROAD BECAUSE IT INVOLVES SOMETHING OVERSEAS AND IT INVOLVED THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATION AND IF THEY HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR THEN IT'S NOT OF ANY POLITICAL VALUE WHATSOEVER.

IT LITERALLY HASN'T BEEN DEBATED IN THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION OF IMPEACHMENT.

LET'S JUST REMIND THAT AID CONGRESSIONALLY IMPROVED FOR THIS FAVOR AND FOR THIS QU QUID QUO PRO HAS BEEN ADMITTED BY THE PRESIDENT'S OWN AMBASSADOR AND ALSO WHITE HOUSE VISIT HASN'T STILL HAPPENED BUT LET'S MOVE ON BECAUSE CLEARLY YOU HAVE YOUR POSITIONS AND I UNDERSTAND THAT BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU -- I WANT TO ASK YOU, WHY DO YOU THINK THIS ISN'T HAVING A MASSIVE EFFECT NATIONWIDE.

IN FACT, THAT IT'S IN SOME STATES, SUCH AS YOUR OWN AND SWING STATES WHICH ARE IMPORTANT ACTUALLY SEEMS TO BE PLAYING TO AN EXTENT IN THE PRESIDENT'S FAVOR?

WELL, IN MANY WAYS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE JUST AS WE JUST RECENTLY SAW PEOPLE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, PEOPLE GET THINGS DONE AND THIS PRESIDENT HAS BEEN FOCUSED ON IMPROVING THE ECONOMY.

WE NOW SEE THE LOWEST UNEMPLOYMENT RATE SINCE DECEMBER OF 1969.

ALMOST THE LOWEST OF MY ENTIRE LIFETIME.

WE SEE THE LOWEST LEVELS EVER RECORDED FOR AFRICAN AMERICAN, HISPANIC AMERICAN, ASIAN AMERICANS, PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES, VETERANS IN EACH OF THOSE CATEGORIES WE NEVER HAD A RECORDED UNEMPLOYMENT RATE LOWER THAN IT IS TODAY.

WE SEE HOUSEHOLD INCOME GOING UP AND NOW IT'S ENERGIZING REPUBLICANS IN BATTLEGROUND STATES IS DOING EXACTLY WHAT WE SAW YEARS AGO WITH A RECALL AND THAT HIS INDEPENDENTS ARE SAYING THIS IS BOLOGNA.

THIS IS RIDICULOUS.

WE WANT PEOPLE THAT FOCUS ON GETTING THINGS DONE THAT MATTER THAT IMPROVE OUR LIVES AND THE LIVES OF OUR FAMILY AND NEIGHBORS AND FRIENDS AND THOSE THAT LIVE AMONG US AND THEY DON'T SEE THAT THROUGH THE DEMOCRATS THAT SEEM TO BE COMPLETELY OBSESSED WITH IMPEACHMENT.

THEY'RE SEEING IT THROUGH THE PRESIDENT'S ALLIES AND ARE ACTUALLY GETTING THINGS DONE.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE RECALL.

IT WAS IN 2012.

HUGE UP ROAR WHEN COLLECTED BARGAINING FOR PUBLIC EMPLOYEES FOR MOST OF THEM AND THEN ACTIVISTS GOT ABOUT A MILLION SIGNATURES.

FORCED A RECALL VOTE.

IT WAS VERY DIVISIVE IN YOUR STATE BUT THEN YOU WON THAT RECALL ELECTION.

SO YOU'RE ESSENTIALLY DRAWING THE PARALLELS, RIGHT?

EXACTLY RIGHT.

YOU HAD THE PROTESTS STARTING THE DAY AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS INAUGURATED.

YOU HAD PROTESTS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

WE HAVE SEEN THE RESISTANCE AND PEOPLE SAY WHERE'S THE COUNTER TO THAT?

NOT ONLY DID WE WIN THE RECALL ELECTION AFTER ALL THE PROTESTS TO THE LEFT, IT ENERGIZED REPUBLICANS AND THE BASE THERE BUT ALSO WE OVERWHELMINGLY WON THE INDEPENDENT VOTE WHICH IS WHY WE WON THE RECALL ELECTION A YEAR LATER BY A GREATER PERCENTAGE AND HIGHER NUMBER OF VOTES THAN WE HAD WON THE ORIGINAL ELECTION.

I DON'T KNOW IF THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO WIN WITH A LARGER NUMBER OF VOTES BUT I THINK YOU SEE A VERY SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCE COMING OUT.

NOT ONLY WISCONSIN BUT IN STATES LIKE MICHIGAN AND OHIO AND PENNSYLVANIA AND NOT ONLY REPUBLICANS IN THE REPUBLICAN BASE WAKING UP BUT A WHOLE LOT OF INDEDPPENDENTS ARE SAYING TH IS NUTS.

LET THE GUY -- THE ELECTIONS NEXT YEAR, LET'S COMPARE CANDIDATES.

LET'S FIGURE OUT WHOEVER THE DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO NOMINATE.

COMPARE HIM OR HER WITH THE PRESIDENT, THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CURRENTLY IN OFFICE AND SEE WHICH IS A BETTER CASE TO BE MADE FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FOR THE NEXT 4 YEARS.

IN OUR CASE, IT PROVED TO BE SUCCESSFUL FOR US AS REPUBLICANS.

WE BELIEVE THE SAME THING IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THIS PRESIDENT?

LET'S JUST GO BACK TO 2016 WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP -- WELL CANDIDATE TRUMP BEATS CANDIDATE CLINTON BY A SLIM 23,000 VOTES.

IT WAS VERY, VERY SLIM AND IT MEANS THAT VOTER REGISTRATION IS CRITICAL AND THIS BRINGS US TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN YOUR STATE WITH THE VOTER ROLES.

STATES ARE REQUIRED BY FEDERAL LAW TO UPDATE THEIR VOTER LIST.

CONCERN THOUGH THAT IT'S BEING USED FOR VOTER SUPPRESSION?

AS YOU KNOW, FEDERAL JUDGE LAST WEEK RULED THAT THE STATE MUST PURGE 200,000 VOTER REGISTRATIONS, YOU KNOW, APPARENTLY VOTERS MAY HAVE MOVED HOME THAT ARE BASICALLY DEMOCRAT LEANING OR ASSUMING TO BE DEMOCRATIC VOTERS AND THE LOCAL NEWSPAPER, THE MILWAUKEE JOURNAL FOUND THESE DEMOCRATIC STRONG HOLDS ACCOUNT FOR 14% OF THE REGISTERED VOTERS BUT RECEIVED 23% OF THE VOTER REGISTRATION LETTERS.

SO THERE'S HUGE PROTESTS.

THE CHAIRMAN OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SAYS THERE'S A LAWSUIT.

HE SAYS THERE'S A PRODUCT OF A RIGHT WING LEADER TO PREVENT ELIGIBLE VOTERS FROM VOTING.

IT SHOULD BE A CONCERN TO ANYONE THAT BELIEVES IN THE CORE OF DEMOCRACY.

IS THAT A PROBLEM TO YOU GIVEN THAT IT IS DEMOCRAT LEADING INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE BEING TARGETED ESSENTIALLY?

WELL, THEY AREN'T.

THIS IS A MATTER OF TAKING THE SPIN FOR THE LEFT.

THE VERY PEOPLE THAT TODAY ARE CLAIMING THAT NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW ARE SAYING THEY'RE ABOVE THE LAW.

THE LAW CLEARLY SAYS YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THE PROCESS THE JUDGE ORDERED.

IF PEOPLE HAD MOVED AND THEY DON'T RESPOND TO THE CARD THEIR NAME IS NO LONGER LISTED AND IN OUR STATE, WISCONSIN IS ONE OF THE EASIEST IN THE WORLD TO REGISTER TO VOTE ON.

YOU CAN DO IT IN THE SAME DAY AND REGISTER TO VOTE AND REGISTER ON SITE SO IF SOMEONE HAS MOVED AND DIDN'T REGISTER IN THE NEW SPOT THEY DON'T NEED TO BE ON THE VOTING LIST.

THEY CAN ACTUALLY DO IT THE VERY DAY OF THE ELECTION.

WHETHER IT'S NEXT SPRING OR NEXT FALL OR ANYWHERE ALONG THE WAY AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THIS REALLY EFFECTS PEOPLE THAT HAVE MOVED.

IT'S NOT A MATTER OF PARTY.

IT'S NOT A MATTER OF AGE.

THERE'S NO OTHER DEMOGRAPHICS.

IT'S JUST AS SIMPLE AS IT'S EFFECTING PEOPLE IN COMMUNITY WHERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE MOVING AROUND COLLEGE CAMPUSES WHERE PEOPLE GRADUATE AND MOVE ON AND THEY FORGET TO MAKE THE CHANGE.

JUST MAKE SURE THAT THEY DO THAT.

THAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY LIVING IN THE PLACE THAT THEY'RE LIFIVINGN THE PLACE THEY'RE LIVING IN AND IT'S NOTHING MORE OR NOTHING LESS THAN THAT.

IT'S BEING CHALLENGED BY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE DIRECTOR OF THE ELECTION COMMISSION IN MILWAUKEE.

THIS WILL LEAD TO PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THE SYSTEM IS RIGGED IT WILL HAVE PRETTY PROFOUND IMPACT ON WHETHER THEY FEEL LIKE IT'S WORTH WHILE TO PARTICIPATE IN ELECTIONS.

IT ALSO HAPPENS THIS WEEK IN GEORGIA THE SECRETARY OF STATE REMOVED MORE THAN 300,000 SO-CALLED INACTIVE VOTERS FROM THE ROLLS.

THAT'S 4% OF ALL VOTERS IN THE STATE.

IT MEANS THAT THEY DIDN'T VOTE IN THE LAST TWO GENERAL ELECTIONS, ET CETERA.

BUT AS YOU KNOW, STACY ABRAMS THAT RAN THERE AND HAS A FAIR FIGHT ACTION ORGANIZATION TO CHALLENGE THE REMOVAL OF AT LEAST HALF OF THOSE THAT HAVE NOW BEEN STRUCK OFF AND SAYS IT'S A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT NOT TO VOTE AND IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO TAKE AWAY THEIR RIGHT NOT TO VOTE SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT EXPRESSED THEIR RIGHT IN RECENT ELECTIONS.

I REALIZE IT'S NOT YOUR STATE BUT THERE'S SIMILAR ISSUES.

WELL, AGAIN, THOSE ARE FOLLOWING THE LAWS THAT ARE IN PLACE IN THAT STATE.

IF THEY WANT TO CHALLENGE IT, THEY CAN CHALLENGE IT ALL THE WAY UP TO THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS UNLIKE OTHER PLACES AROUND THE WORLD IT'S INCREDIBLY EASY TO VOTE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

PARTICULARLY IN STATES LIKE MINE THAT HAVE SAME DAY VOTER REGISTRATION OUT THERE.

WHAT PEOPLE DO HAVE A CONCERN ABOUT AND HISTORICALLY HAVE A CONCERN ABOUT IS VOTING LISTS THAT REMAIN AFTER PEOPLE MOVED ON WHETHER IT'S COLLEGE OR SOMEWHERE ELSE.

AND AGAIN IT'S THOUSANDS AND THERE HAVE BEEN INSTANCES AROUND THE COUNTRY.

AND THAT IS A PROBLEM.

IT SHOULD COUNT JUST AS MUCH AS THE OTHER PERSON.

ON THE VOTING LIST MATCH PEOPLE THAT ARE ACTUALLY VOTING AND WE MAKE IT EASY TO VOTE.

WE SHOULD MAKE IT EASY TO VOTE.

I WONDER IF YOU WOULD AGREE LIKE IN AUSTRALIA THERE SHOULD BE MANDATORY VOTING ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.

IT MIGHT TAKE AWAY SOME OF THE ISSUES.

BUT LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

AGAIN IT IS MOSTLY DEMOCRATS COMPLAINING THE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO TILT THE FIELD TO MAKE IT UNLEVEL AND AN UNLEVEL PLAYING FIELD AND OF COURSE STACY ABRAMS WAS RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR IN 2018 AND THEN SECRETARY OF STATE BRIAN KENT WAS ALSO RUNNING AGAINST HER.

HE ENFORCED THIS POLICY OF EXACT MATCH.

IF THERE'S A LITTLE IRREGULARITY IN THE REGISTRATION, IT WAS CANCELLED AND THERE WERE 53,000 VOTER APPLICATIONS PUT ON HOLD.

SO WHEN SHE LOST TO KENT THAT RAN AGAINST HER ACCUSED HIM OF USING HIS ROLE TO SUPPRESS THE VOTE.

AND THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID IN HER CONCESSION SPEECH.

I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE BRIAN KENT WILL BE CERTIFIED AS THE VICTOR IN THE 2018 ELECTION.

BUT TO WATCH AN ELECTED OFFICIAL THAT CLAIMS TO REPRESENT THE PEOPLE IN THE STATE PIN HIS HOPES FOR ELECTION ON THE SUPPRESSION OF THE PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC RIGHT TO VOTE HAS BEEN TRULY APPALLING.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, SHE IS VERY PASSIONATE AND SHE HAS DEDICATED NOW HER PROFESSIONAL LIFE TO CHANGING THIS SITUATION.

I JUST WONDER, OBVIOUSLY ALLSTATES HAVE THE RIGHT TO CLEAN UP THEIR VOTERS LIST BUT IT IS BY AND LARGE REPUBLICANS REALLY ENGAGING WITH THIS AND OF COURSE ON THE ISSUE OF GERRYMANDERING.

DOES IT BOTHER YOU?

WELL, AGAIN, THAT'S JUST COMPLETELY WRONG ON THAT PART.

I MEAN THE WORST GERRYMANDERED CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT IN THE COUNTRY IS MARYLAND.

MARYLAND IS THE THIRD DISTRICT ONLY CONNECTED BY WATER AND NOT BY LAND.

YOU LOOK AT STATES LIKE ILLINOIS AND LOOK AT STATES LIKE NEW YORK AND MASSACHUSETTS, HISTORICALLY YOU HAVE SEEN A GROSS GERRYMANDERING BY THOSE ON THE LEFT AND HISTORICALLY NOT ONLY HAVE DEMOCRATS BEEN DOING IT BUT UP UNTIL THE LAST DECADE OR TWO MOST WAS DONE NOT ONLY TO FAVOR DEMOCRATS BUT WHITE DEMOCRATS AT THE EXTENT OF PEOPLE OF COLOR NOT GIVEN DISTRICTS TO WHICH THEY COULD ELECT PEOPLE THAT WERE AFRICAN AMERICAN AND LATINO AND REPUBLICANS 10 OR 20 YEARS AGO AND JOINED TOGETHER HERE IN WISCONSIN AND MANY OTHER STATES ACROSS THE NATION.

AND ACTUALLY AT THE SAME TIME OPENED THE DOOR FOR MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR TO BE ELECTED NOT ONLY TO THE U.S. CONGRESS BUT IN STATE LEGISLATE IIVE SEATS ALL ACROSS AMERICA.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

SO WE CONTINUE NOW WITH OUR TOP STORY.

THE VOTE ON IMPEACHMENT AS THE HOUSE CONTINUES TO DEBATE.

FOR MORE ON THIS AND HIS CONSEQUENCES.

I'M JOINED BY NEW YORK AND THE EDITOR FOR THE NATIONAL REVIEW AND ALSO THE CASE FOR NATIONALISM AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO, THE LONDON BUREAU CHIEF JOINS ME AGAIN AND WASHINGTON AND NEW YORK AS WELL.

THIS IS ALL HAPPENING AND IT'S STILL HAPPENING.

LET ME JUST ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE SITTING RIGHT HERE WITH ME.

HOW DO YOU FEEL AT THIS MOMENT, AS AN AMERICAN JOURNALIST AROUND HERE IN THE WORLD SEEING HOW THE WORLD IS REACTING TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES AND SEEING THIS SEISMIC DRAMA COME TO A HEAD?

WELL, I MEAN, I COME TO IT AS SOMEONE WHO UNTIL THE SUMMER WAS COVERING THIS PRESIDENT AS A WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT AND I'M THINKING ABOUT WHAT IT WILL BE LIKE AROUND THE PRESIDENT AND YET IN THESE FINAL MOMENTS IT ALL SEEMS -- THERE'S A SENSE TO IT FOR HOWEVER MOMENTOUS THIS OCCASION IS AND HOW HISTORIC IT IS, EVENTS WERE LEADING TO THIS CONCLUSION.

I'M STRUCK BY THE WEIGHT OF HISTORY THAT LIES OVER THE MOMENT BUT THE SENSE TO WHICH YOU COULD HAVE SAID A YEAR AGATHA PERHAPS WE WOULD SEE THIS OUTCOME AND YOU SEE IT IN THIS SORT OF ODD AND THE ODDS OF A SURPRISE OR UNEXPECTED DEVELOPMENT ARE LOW AND WE'RE WAITING FOR THE INEVITABLE VOTE TO OCCUR.

HOW DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL TO SEE THIS CONSERVATIVE AMERICAN PRESIDENT BEING IMPEACHED BUT REACT TO WHAT MARK JUST SAID.

IT HAS A FEEL OF INEVIDENT BLT WHICH IS WHAT SCOTT WALKER WAS SAYING BUT IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

THIS HAS BEEN THE DEMOCRATS AIM FROM THE BEGINNING.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW?

IT'S OBVIOUSLY A HISTORIC VOTE.

IT WILL BE THE THIRD TIME THAT IT'S HAPPENED IN AMERICAN HISTORY THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN IMPEACHED BY THE HOUSE BUT OTHERWISE THERE'S VERY LITTLE DRAMA TO IT AND PROBABLY VERY LITTLE CONSEQUENCE TO IT.

THIS IS NOT CONVULSING THE NATION.

PART OF THE REASON WE'RE ON THE TIME FRAME HERE IS THE HOUSE IS DESPERATE TO GET IT OFF OF ITS PLATE AND GET IT ON TO SOMETHING ELSE AND THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES THEY'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS VERY MUCH.

SO THIS IS NOT A CLIMAX OR AN END, IT'S JUST ANOTHER SKIRMISH IN THE LONG WAR OVER TRUMP.

YOU'LL GET SOME POLLS THAT SHOW SUPPORT FOR IMPEACHING AND MOVING 48%, OPPOSITION 46% WHICH ARE NUMBERS THAT SOUND FAMILIAR BECAUSE THEY'RE THE POPULAR VOTE MARGINS FOR HILLARY CLINTON AND DONALD TRUMP IN 2016 WHICH SHOWS THAT VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE MOVED.

I THINK IN TERMS OF PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS AS SOON AS HE'S ACQUITTED IN THE SENATE WHICH WILL BE INEVITABLE, TWO WEEKS LATER THIS WILL FEEL LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE THAT HAPPENED A DECADE AGO AND WILL HAVE VERY LITTLE EFFECT ON WHAT HAPPENS IN NOVEMBER 2020.

SO LET ME ASK YOU BEFORE WE DIVE DOWN INTO WHAT IT MIGHT MEAN FOR THE FUTURE, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS WRITTEN THE VERY LONG LETTER TO THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE ABOUT A SIX PAGE LETTER SAYING THAT HISTORY WILL JUDGE YOU.

HE SAID I WRITE THIS LETTER TO YOU FOR THE PURPOSE OF HISTORY AND TO PUT MY THOUGHTS ON A PERMANENT RECORD.

100 YEARS FROM NOW WHEN PEOPLE LOOK BACK AT THIS AFFAIR I WANT THEM TO UNDERSTAND IT AND LEARN FROM IT SO THAT IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN TO ANOTHER PRESIDENT AGAIN.

HOW DO YOU THINK, SUSAN, AND YOU HAVE BEEN WATCHING IT CLOSELY, HISTORY WILL JUDGE THIS?

WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M STANDING HERE UP ON CAPITOL HILL FOR THIS DEBATE AND, YOU KNOW, THE CYNICISM THAT YOU'RE HEARING FROM THE OTHER GUESTS ABOUT WE PRESUMED TO KNOW THE INEVITABLE OUT COME, HISTORY DOES GET THE LAST LAUGH HERE.

EVEN TO LISTEN TO THAT DONALD TRUMP QUOTE, THE PROBLEM THAT WE ALL FACE AS JOURNALISTS IS ONE INDIVIDUAL QUOTE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT CAN MAKE HIM SOUND LIKE SO MUCH MORE OF A RATIONAL ACTOR AND THAT HE FITS SOMEHOW WITHIN THE MAINSTREAM OF OUR EPIC CLASH BETWEEN REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS.

HISTORY IS GOING TO REGARD THAT LETTER AS AN ASTONISHING SEQUEL TO GREAT PRESIDENTIAL WORKS AND IT'S FILLED WITH EXCLAMATION POINTS, WITH GRIEVANCE, WITH LAMENT.

WITH FACTUAL INACCURACIES THAT ARE AS GOOD OF A SUMMING UP OF THE PRESIDENT SO FAR AS ALMOST ANYTHING ELSE.

AND I TAKE THE POINT THAT FOR A MOMENTOUS OCCASION TODAY IT FEELS A LITTLE BIT LACKING IN ENERGY UP HERE IN THE CAPITAL ALTHOUGH I IMAGINE LATER TODAY AS WE GET CLOSER TO THE VOTE THIS EVENING IT WILL BE MUCH MORE PACKED WITH PEOPLE, MEMBERS SITTING ON THE FLOOR LISTENING TO SPEECHES AND THE LIKE.

BUT AGAIN TO THE POINT ABOUT HISTORY IT SEEMS THAT ONE OF THE REASONS THAT THIS FEELS LIKE ONE MORE CHAPTER IN THE ON GOING TRUMP SAGA IS BECAUSE TRUMP HIMSELF IS THE CRISIS.

IT'S NOT THE UKRAINE AFFAIR THAT WE'RE LIKELY TO REGARD AS THE MOST SIGNIFICANT THING ABOUT TRUMP BUT THE NATURE OF HIS PRESIDENCY ITSELF I THINK.

I WANT TO GET TO THE FACT ACTUALLY BECAUSE IT'S SO STRANGE THAT FACTS THEMSELVES ARE COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DEBATED AND DISAGREED WITH ALONG PARTY LINES.

YOU JUST HEARD GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER TALK ABOUT HOW THERE'S BEEN NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER TO SUGGEST THAT ANY OF THIS IS JUSTIFIED.

BUT LET US JUST PLAY HIS PERSONAL LAWYER RUDY GIULIANI THAT'S GOING BACK AND FORTH FROM UKRAINE AND APPEARED TO GIVE YET ANOTHER DOUBLING DOWN OF HOW HE FORCED OUT THE AMBASSADOR.

LET US PLAY THIS SOUND BITE.

YOU'RE THE PERSONAL ATTORNEY FOR THE PRESIDENT.

WHY DO YOU NEED HER OUT OF THE WAY?

I DON'T NEED HER OUT OF THE WAY.

I FORCED HER OUT BECAUSE SHE'S CORRUPT.

THE DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE THAT SHE COMMITTED PERJURY.

I HAVE FOUR WITNESSES THAT WILL TESTIFY THAT SHE PERSONALLY TURNED DOWN THEIR VISAS BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING TO COME HERE AND GIVE EVIDENCE EITHER AGAINST BIDEN OR AGAINST THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT SHE WAS ACTING CORRUPTLY IN THAT POSITION AND HAD TO BE REMOVED.

SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT OR PART OF THE DEEP STATE.

IT'S JUST INCREDIBLE TO LISTEN TO THAT BECAUSE IT DOES GO ALL OVER THE PLACE.

AND IT SOME WHAT CONTRADICTS WHAT HE SAID TO THE NEW YORKER WHICH IS I HAD TO GET HER OUT BECAUSE SHE WAS OBSTRUCTING ME BEING ABLE TO DIG UP DIRT ON MY CLIENTS.

MY CLIENT BEING THE PRESIDENT.

SO WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO TELL THESE STORIES AND REPORT THE FACTS TO PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON ITS VERY DIFFICULT ISN'T IT?

WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH THIS?

ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THE CALCULATION THEY MADE WHEN THEY STARTED DOWN THIS ROAD IS THAT UNLIKE THE MUELLER REPORT WHICH IS EXTREMELY COMPLICATED, 440 PAGES, THIS NOTION OF THE PRESIDENT CALLING THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE AND ASKING FOR A QUID QUO PRO WAS A RELATIVELY EASY THING.

PEOPLE WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS WRONG AND AN ABUSE OF HIS POWER.

THE EXPLANATION IS TO TANGLED THAT YOU CAN EASILY LOSE TRACK OF WHO DID WHAT TO WHOM AND WHETHER IT WAS RIGHT OR WRONG AND I THINK THE EXTENT THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN REPELLING THIS WHOLE EFFORT, HE HAS MANAGED TO KICK UP A GREAT DEAL OF DUST AND THAT ORIGINAL MOTION OF A PHONE CALL MADE AND HAVE BEEN LOST IN THE MIST.

HIS OWN AMBASSADOR TO THE EU SAID THAT OTHERS TESTIFIED TO IT.

THE TIME OF LIVING IN A DEEP POLARIZATION IS KEEPING A NARRATIVE BASED ON A FACT AND NOT BASED ON COUNTER CLAIMS THAT ARE WILDLY EXAGGERATED AND I THINK THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE ONLY BEEN MODERATELY SUCCESSFUL IN DOING THAT AND IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THE TESTIMONY IT SEEMED LIKE THEY DID HAVE A SEQUENCE OF WITNESSES THAT WERE LAYING OUT A TRAIL BUT IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS WE SORT OF LOST THAT A LITTLE BIT.

IT PLAYS TO THE PRESIDENT'S ADVANTAGE.

THE ENDLESS DEBATES TELEVISED AROUND THE WORLD BUT ALSO SO HAVE THE REPUBLICANS.

THE REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN VERY UNIFIED.

HE ADMITTED HE'S NOT AN IMPARTIAL JUROR.

LET ME PLAY THIS AND I'LL GET YOUR REACTION TO IT IN A MOMENT.

THERE'S NOT ANYTHING JUDICIAL ABOUT IT.

IT'S A POLITICAL DECISION.

THE HOUSE MADE A PARTISAN POLITICAL DECISION TO IMPEACH.

I WOULD ANTICIPATE WE WOULD HAVE A LARGELY PARTISAN OUTCOME IN THE SENATE.

I'M NOT IMPARTIAL ABOUT THIS AT ALL.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT SITTING STATE SIDE?

THEY HAVE TO TAKE AN OATH SAYING I SOLEMNLY SWEAR I'LL DO IMPARTIAL JUSTICE.

I DON'T THINK HE THINKS HE'LL DO ANYTHING TO VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTIONS AND THE LAWS BUT HE'S RIGHT.

THIS IS A POLITICAL PROCESS WITH LEGAL TRAPPINGS.

THE FOUNDERS DIDN'T DIVIDE THE SYSTEM WHERE YOU GO OUT AND CREATE A JURY THE WAY YOU USUALLY DO.

YOU FIND PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO OPINION ABOUT IT AND ASK THEM TO DECIDE.

IT'S INHERENTLY A POLITICAL PROCESS SO YOU HAVE ELECTED -- THEY WEREN'T ELECTED AT THE TIME OF THE FOUNDING BUT YOU HAVE ELECTED SENATORS AND IT'S RIDICULOUS TO THINK THAT PARTISANSHIP GOES ONE WAY.

IT'S BEEN PARTISAN IMPEACHMENT IN THE HOUSE AND PARTISAN ACQUITTAL IN THE SENATE AND THIS IS NOT ANYTHING NEW IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

YOU HAVE A VERY SMALL SAMPLE SIZE OF PRIOR SENATE TRIALS, PRESIDENTS WHO WERE IMPEACHED BUT NEVER IN THE PREVIOUS TWO TRIALS DID ANY PARTY, DID ANY MEMBER OF THE SAME PARTY AS THE IMPEACHED PRESIDENT VOTE TO CONVICT HIM AND WE'RE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO HAVE THAT THIS TIME EITHER.

I EXPECT THERE WILL BE ZERO REPUBLICAN VOTES TO CONVICT.

SO THAT'S INTERESTING OF COURSE AND A GOOD REMINDER.

HE WILL BE -- I MEAN, HE IS LIKELY TO BE THE FIRST IMPEACHED PRESIDENT BY THE HOUSE TO RUN FOR RE-ELECTION.

LET'S NOT GET INTO THE WHOLE POLARIZATION IN THE STATE OF POLITICS.

WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THIS?

DID BOTH SIDES DIG IN EVEN FURTHER.

DONALD TRUMP AS YOU KNOW, THAT'S NOT HIS BRAND IN POLITICS.

HE'S NOT A REPAIRER OF THE BREACH.

WHAT IS STRIKING N FACT, TO ME.

I WAS HERE 21 YEARS AGO ALMOST TO THE DAY WHEN BILL CLINTON WAS IMPEACHED BY THE HOUSE AND THEN WAS SENT TO THE SENATE FOR THE TRIAL.

IT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME IN OUR POLITICS.

HE FELT HE NEEDED TO APOLOGIZE.

HE DID A CONTRITE SPEECH AND SAID HE DID WRONG.

DEMOCRATS LIKE THE SENATE MINORITY LEADER ESSENTIALLY SAID THE PRESIDENT DID WRONG AND WE DON'T BELIEVE HIS CRIMES ROSE TO A LEVEL OF REMOVING HIM FROM OFFICE.

IT WAS A VERY DIFFERENT DEFENSE OF BILL CLINTON.

THEY DIDN'T ARGUE OVER THE FACTS ONCE BILL CLINTON ADMITTED THAT HE LIED UNDER OATH.

WHAT HAPPENED IS THEY MADE A CONSTITUTIONAL AND LEGAL ARGUMENT ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT CONGRESS SHOULD DO ABOUT THAT AND HERE WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE REPUBLICANS REFUSE NOT ONLY TO ACCEPT BASIC FACTS ABOUT IT BUT EVEN DONALD TRUMP TALKS ABOUT HIS PERFECT PHONE CALL.

THAT REMAINS THE KEY BIT OF EVIDENCE AND I WAS BLOWN AWAY TO YOUR POINT ABOUT THE TWO SIDES NOT ACCEPTING FACTS ANYMORE.

THERE'S A CONGRESSWOMAN FROM ARIZONA FROM THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, AFTER THE TWO ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP.

DO YOU REALLY THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO ASK THE PRESIDENT OF ANOTHER COUNTRY TO INVESTIGATE JOE BIDEN AND SHE SAID HE DIDN'T SAY THAT.

AND IT'S THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE PHONE CALL THAT THE WHITE HOUSE RELEASED.

NO HE DIDN'T SAY THAT.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT?

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO REPAIR THE BREACH THAT HAS OPENED UP IN AMERICAN SOCIETY.

THERE'S AN 85 POINT GAP ACCORDING TO THE WALL STREET JOURNAL TODAY.

THE TWO PARTIES VIEW OF DONALD TRUMP.

IT'S WIDENING AND 2020 LOOK OUT, IT'S GOING TO GET WIDER STILL.

AND HAVING BEEN A WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, YOU JUST HEARD SUSAN REFER TO TOM WHO WAS THE SENATE DEMOCRATIC LEADER AT THE TIME OF THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT.

AND HE SAID ACTUALLY, AS DEEPLY DISAPPOINTED AS I AM WITH THE PROCESS, IT PALES IN COMPARISON TO THE DISAPPOINTMENT THAT I FEEL TOWARD THIS PRESIDENT.

HERE IS A MAJOR DEMOCRATIC LEADER ACTUALLY SLAPPING THE PRESIDENT AT LEAST SOME WHAT.

CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT HAPPENING AT ALL IN THIS CASE?

WELL, THERE WERE ONE OR TWO REPUBLICANS WHO SUGGESTED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE OPEN MINDED ABOUT IT AND SOME WHO WERE QUITE CRITICAL OF THE PRESIDENT IN THE EARLY DAYS WHEN THE FIRST DISCLOSURES OF ALL OF THIS CAME OUT.

MITT ROMNEY WAS AN OBVIOUS EXAMPLE.

EVEN LINDSEY GRAHAM, IF YOU RECALL, SAID HE WOULD BE TROUBLED IF THERE WAS CLEAR EVIDENCE OF A QUID PRO QUO.

AND LINDSEY GRAHAM CLEARLY DOESN'T FEEL THAT WAY ANYMORE.

I'M ALSO STRUCK BY REPUBLICAN SENATORS.

IF YOU GO BACK TO THE 1970s, MERELY THE PROSPECT OF IMPEACHMENT WAS ENOUGH TO SEND A GROUP OF VERY SENIOR REPUBLICAN SENATORS TO THE WHITE HOUSE TO TELL PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE THEIR SUPPORT ANYMORE AND PRECIPITATED HIS RESIGNATION.

IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING THAT THE WORLD AND OUR POLITICS HAVE CHANGED EXTRAORDINARILY AND RICH IS PROBABLY RIGHT THAT NOT A SINGLE REPUBLICAN SENATOR WILL VOTE TO CONVICT THE PRESIDENT.

LET ME ASK YOU, YOU ARE EDITOR AND CHIEF OF THE NATIONAL REVIEW.

BACK IN 2016 THERE WAS THE QUOTE, NO TRUMP ISSUE WHEN HE WAS RUNNING AS CANDIDATE AND YOU WROTE TRUMP IS A PHILOSOPHICALLY UNMOORED POLITICAL OPPORTUNIST WHO WOULD TRASH THE BROAD CONSERVATIVE IDEOLOGICAL CONSENSUS WITHIN THE GOP IN FAVOR OF A FREE FLOATING POPULISM WITH STRONG MAN OVERTONES.

HAVE YOUR VIEWS CHANGED SINCE THEN?

YES AND NO.

I THINK WE HAVE SEEN A LOT OF THE DOWN SIDE TO THE WAY HE BEHAVES HIMSELF.

WHAT HE SAYS.

THE CONSENSUS IS UNDER PHILOSOPHICAL AND IDEOLOGICAL STRESS WITHIN THE PARTY BUT I HAVE BEEN SURPRISED BY TWO THINGS.

ONE CORE ISSUES IMPORTANT TO THE CONSERVATIVE COALITION, AND TRUMP HAS BEEN A ROCK AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT I HAVEN'T EXPECTED AND ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE LEDGER I THOUGHT HE WOULD ATTEMPT TO MODERATE IT AND HIGHLIGHT HIS GRIEVANCES AND THAT'S JUST A MAJOR DOWN SIDE.

WHEN WE RAN THAT ISSUE, THERE ARE 16 REPUBLICANS IN A PRIMARY AND THERE ARE 10, 12 BETTER ALTERNATIVES IN DONALD TRUMP AND THE FACT IS NOW HE'S PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THERE AREN'T ANY GOOD ALTERNATIVES THAT I CAN SEE.

RESPOND TO YOUR COLLEAGUE JOHN HARRIS THAT IS THE EDITOR AT POLITICO AND HE WROTE AN ARTICLE HEADLINED IMPEACHMENT AND THE CRACK UP OF THE CONSERVATIVE MIND AND HE SAYS HE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM ANY SUPPORTER OF PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT A BELIEVES SINCERELY THAT IMPEACHMENT IS ILLEGITIMATE AND ALSO AT THE SAME TIME CAN CONVINCINGLY SAY THEY WOULD ARGUE AGAINST IMPEACHMENT IF THE FACTS WERE EXACTLY THE SAME BUT IT WAS HILLARY CLINTON IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

ARE YOU THAT ILLUSIVE CONSERVATIVE, RICH?

WELL, ONE THING THAT I HAVE SAID FROM THE VERY BEGINNING AND I THINK REPUBLICANS WOULD BE MUCH STRONGER GROUND IF THEY JUST ADMIT IT.

THE CALL WASN'T PERFECT OBVIOUSLY AND HE WAS OBVIOUSLY WITH HOLDING THIS MONEY TO PRESSURE THE UKRAINIANS TO COMMIT TO THESE INVESTIGATIONS AND THAT WAS AN IMPROPER USE OF HIS POWER.

AND I THINK IT WILL COME BACK TO HAUNT REPUBLICANS THAT THEY HAVEN'T SAID THESE THINGS FORTHRIGHTLY WHEN THEY'RE ARGUING AGAINST ABUSES BY FUTURE DEMOCRAT PRESIDENT.

THAT SAID, I SINCERELY BELIEVE AND I THINK PRETTY MUCH EVERY REPUBLICAN SENATOR SINCERELY BELIEVES THAT THIS IS JUST TOO NARROW AND TENUOUS A GROUND TO REMOVE A PRESIDENT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN OUR HISTORY.

SO THIS WILL END UP SERVING THE WAY THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT DID IN THE 1990s, AS AN ACT OF CENSURE AND PERHAPS WE'LL ALL BE BETTER GOING FORWARD.

IT'S IN THE FUTURE WE THINK ABOUT CENSURE VOTES RATHER THAN IMPEACHMENT.

WE HAVE ONLY 30 SECONDS.

DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD BE A WAY FORWARD?

WELL, IT CAME UP IN THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT.

THE TWO PARTIES ARE TOO FIRMLY ENTRENCHED FOR THAT TO HAPPEN BUT LOOK, IT'S A REMARKABLE THING THAT EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN HOUSE MEMBER AND EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN SENATOR'S CONSCIOUS HAPPENS TO LINE-UP SO PERFECTLY.

WITH THE PRESIDENT'S INTEREST AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME.

THAT'S A STATISTICALLY IMPROBABLE EVENT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THESE MOMENTS ARE MOMENTS OF RECKONING WHEN WE LOOK AT WHERE OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM IS AT.

THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN HYPOCRITES AND LIARS IN WASHINGTON.

I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

I HAVE TO TELL YOU.

IT'S A TOUGH TIME FOR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY TRUTHFULLY.

ON THAT NOTE, THERE'S SO MUCH MORE TO TALK ABOUT AND WE WILL AS WE CARRY ON BUT ANYWAY, SUSAN, RICH, AND ALSO MARK, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US TONIGHT.

TURNING NOW TO THE ISSUE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION PUSHES TO RESUME FEDERAL EXECUTION, A NEW FILM LOOKS AT THE MORAL QUESTIONS ABOUT DEATH ROWAND THE EMOTIONAL DEMANDS ON THE EXECUTIONER.

LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP.

YOU WANT TO PLAY GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS AND I'M ONE OF THE BAD GUYS.

NOW, THE FILM WON THE GRAND JURY PRIZE AT SUN DANCE THIS YEAR MAKING THE DIRECTOR THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN TO WIN IN THAT FESTIVAL'S 35 YEAR HISTORY AND SHE IS JOINING MICHELLE MARTIN ALONG WITH THE LEAD ACTOR TO TALK ABOUT IT.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE TODAY.

WHAT IS THIS ABOUT?

CLEMENCY IS ABOUT BERNADINE WILLIAMS WHO IS A PRISON WARREN AND SHE HAS OVERSEEN SEVERAL EXECUTIONS AND THE FILM REALLY EXPLORES HER KIND OF EMOTIONAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL PROCESSING AND EVEN ACTUAL GRADUAL UNRAVELING AS SHE PREPARES TO EXECUTE ANOTHER MAN ON DEATH ROW.

WHY THIS STORY?

WHY NOW?

WELL, THIS REALLY STARTED THE MORNING AFTER TROY DAVIS WAS EXECUTED.

HE WAS EXECUTED ON SEPTEMBER 21st, 2011 AND LEADING UP TO HIS EXECUTION HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD PROTESTED AGAINST IT INCLUDING A HAND FULL OF RETIRED WARDENS AND DIRECTORS OF CORRECTIONS AND THESE WARDENS BANNED TOGETHER AND WROTE A LETTER TO THE GOVERNOR URGING FOR CLEMENCY.

NOT JUST ON THE GROUNDS OF HIS POTENTIAL INNOCENCE BUT THEY SPOKE ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES KILLING HIM WOULD HAVE ON THE PRISON STAFF.

THE MORNING AFTER HE WAS EXECUTING I LIKE MANY OTHERS WERE NAVIGATING FEELINGS OF ANGER AND FRUSTRATION AND SADNESS.

WHAT MUST IT BE LIKE FOR THE PEOPLE WHOSE LIVELIHOODS WERE TIED TO THE TAKING OF HUMAN LIFE.

WHAT ARE THE EMOTIONAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES THAT THE WARDEN SPOKE TO AND THAT WAS THE SEED THAT WAS PLANTED.

SO IN 2013, THAT'S WHEN I REALLY DECIDED THAT I WAS GOING TO FULLY COMMIT MY LIFE TO RESEARCHING AND WRITING AND UNDERSTANDING THIS WORLD.

WHAT ABOUT YOU?

WHAT ABOUT THE SUBJECT ITSELF?

THE SUBJECT MATTER THAT MADE YOU WANT TO TACKLE THIS?

SO WHEN I -- MYSELF AS AN EDUCATED WOMAN IN A SIX DECADE END SOCIALLY AND POLITICALLY ACTIVE DID NOT KNOW THAT THESE PEOPLE EXISTED.

I KNOW SOMETHING MAGICAL HAPPENED WHENEVER SOMEBODY WAS PUT TO DEATH AND IT MADE ME FEEL SICK AND I NEVER PUT A PERSON BY IT AND I ASSUMED THAT THEY MUST BE THE PEOPLE THAT LIKED TO STOMP SMALL CREATURES OR SOMETHING.

AND THEY COULD BE WOMEN AND THEY COULD BE SISTERS.

THEY WOULD COME FROM MENTAL HEALTH TO THE PRISON SYSTEM.

COME FROM SOCIAL WORK TO THE PRISON SYSTEM.

IT WAS A REVELATION.

IF I DIDN'T KNOW THAT, I ASSUMED THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS DIDN'T KNOW IT.

IT WAS TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING IN THE BALANCE.

YOU CAN'T MAKE THAT DECISION IN AN INFORMED WAY UNLESS YOU KNOW ALL OF THE ASPECTS OF IT.

THAT WAS THE STORY TO BRING TO THE PUBLIC.

THE IDEA OF MAKING THE WARDEN A BLACK WOMAN, WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?

REALLY JUST WHY NOT?

I DON'T HAVE ANY -- THERE WASN'T -- I THINK THAT A LOT OF -- I THINK A LOT OF WHITE MEN WRITE IN THEIR LIKENESS WITHOUT QUESTION AND I JUST WROTE IN MY LIKENESS AND I COULD SEE MYSELF IN BERNADINE AND THERE WAS NO QUESTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THIS SHOULD HAPPEN.

I JUST THINK THAT'S SO FASCINATING BECAUSE THE AFRICAN AMERICANS DEPICTED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT ARE GENERALLY, THEY'RE EITHER LIKE DANNY GLOVER, TRYING TO KEEP THINGS ON THE UP AND UP AND NOT ALWAYS SUCCEEDING OR IN DETROIT ESSENTIALLY A BYSTANDER AND MAYBE DENZEL WASHINGTON IN TRAINING DA I THAT WAS CORRUPT BUT THE IDEA OF A PERSON WHO -- FOR WHOM IT'S A JOB AND THEY'RE TRYING TO DO THIS TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY AND STRUGGLING WITH WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE KNOWING HOW THEY'RE GOING TO BE VIEWED, IT'S JUST A VERY ORIGINAL IDEA.

MOST OF THE WARDENS THAT I SPOKE TO, THE WARDEN AT THE PRISON WHERE I CREATED A FILM PROGRAM AND TAUGHT INCARCERATED WOMEN TO MAKE THEIR OWN SHORT FILMS, THEY'RE ALL BLACK WOMEN.

MOST OF THE WARDENS THAT I SPOKE TO.

MOST OF THE WARDENS THAT I JUST OBSERVED IF YEARS, BLACK WOMEN AND I JUST THOUGHT THAT THAT, THEY WERE SO HUMAN TO ME AND IT JUST MADE ALL THE SENSE IN THE WORLD AND I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A REALLY GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A BLACK WOMAN PROTAGONIST HUMAN ON SCREEN.

THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT BERNADINE, SHE IS MEETING WITH THE ATTORNEY FOR PRISONER THAT IS ON DEATH ROW.

AND I THINK WE'LL JUST PLAY THIS CLIP AND THEN TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT IT.

GREAT.

THEY'RE NOT APART OF HIS LEGAL TEAM.

IF THEY WANT TO TALK TO HIM, THEY CAN WRITE A LETTER.

CALL HIM ON THE PHONE.

THOSE ARE THE RULES.

HE'S NOT GOING TO DO THAT.

YOU KNOW THAT.

HE'S NUMB.

HE'S CUT PEOPLE OUT.

PEOPLE HAVE CUT HIM OUT.

NOW HIS MOM IS DEAD.

I JUST WANT HIM TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT SUPPORT HIM.

IT'S JUST A CONVERSATION.

YOU CAN'T.

BLOCKED EVERY ATTEMPT THAT I MANAGED TO TRY TO GET HIM TO BE TREATED BY A HUMAN BEING.

YOU'RE GOING TO KILL HIM.

IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

I HAVE TREATED HIM LIKE A HUMAN BEING EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

IS IT MY JOB TO BYPASS THE RULES TO ACCOMMODATE YOUR SPECIAL REQUEST.

SPECIAL REQUEST.

HOW IS IT A SPECIAL REQUEST.

OPEN THE GATES PLEASE I'D LIKE TO LEAVE NOW.

I HAVE TO MAINTAIN ORDER AND SAFETY IN THIS PRISON.

I HAVE OVER 1,000 BODIES THAT I HAVE TO ENSURE ARE SAFE AND ACCOUNTED FOR.

HARD ENOUGH WITHOUT YOU COMPLICATING THINGS.

ALL YOU TO DO IS PROTECT YOURSELF NOW THAT THIS PLACE IS UNDER FIRE SINCE YOU BOTCHED THE LAST EXECUTION.

KEEP THE OUTSIDE WORLD OUT.

YOU CAN KILL HIM AS UNDER THE RADAR AS POSSIBLE.

GET OUT.

REMOVE ANY DECENCY THE MAN HAS LEFT TO BOOT.

GO.

I'M GOING.

BUT I'M NOT GOING FAR.

I AM GOING TO FIGHT FOR HIM RIGHT UP UNTIL THE VERY MOMENT THAT YOU STICK THE NEEDLE IN HIS ARM.

HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND BERNADINE?

WHAT IS SHE ABOUT?

BERNADINE IS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT YOU WANT IN A TIME OF CRISES.

SHE IS A PERSON THAT IS STEADY.

SHE'S THE TYPE OF PERSON YOU'D LIKE FOR AN ADMIRAL OR GENERAL.

HER COMPASSION SHOWS IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN MY COMPASSION.

I AM ARTISTIC.

I AM EMOTIONAL.

MY COMPASSION IS WARM.

IT'S MALLABLE.

HER COMPASSION IS I'M NOT GOING TO LET US SLIP INTO THAT.

WE'RE GOING TO BE OKAY.

AND EVERYBODY IS GOING TO KEEP THEIR DIGNITY BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO KEEP THE PROTOCOL.

WHO ARE WE ROOTING FOR HERE?

WHO IS THE VILLAIN AND WHO IS THE HERO?

YOU KNOW, MY INTENTION WASN'T TO WRITE A STORY OR MAKE A FILM THAT WAS THAT BINARY.

I THINK THAT THIS ENTIRE STORY, THIS ENTIRE WORLD EXISTS IN THE GRAY AND MANY PEOPLE ARE THEIR OWN PROTAGONIST AND ANTAGONIST AT THE TIME.

IT'S FASCINATING.

I JUST HAVE A NUMBER OF RELATIVES IN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

AS BEING NOT WITH THE COMMUNITY AS IT WERE BUT BEING WITH THE ENEMY.

I'M JUST CURIOUS ABOUT MAYBE THE DECISION TO GIVE HER A SENSE OF HUMANITY AND A SENSE OF PURPOSE THAT SHE BELIEVES IN.

I MEAN, SHE THINKS SHE IS DOING THE RIGHT THING.

RIGHT.

WELL, I DIDN'T HAVE TO GIVE IT TO HER.

SHE HAS IT.

I HAD TO NOT DENY THAT IN MY PORTRAYAL OF HER.

BECAUSE THE THING IS, I WOULD NOT BE DOING MY JOB IF I DIDN'T MAKE HER A HUMAN BEING BECAUSE SHE IS A HUMAN BEING AND SHE'S EVEN MORE OF A HUMAN BEING THAN A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT MIGHT SIT IN JUDGMENT OF HER BECAUSE ONE OF THE CONTRACTS THAT THE WARDENS MAKE WITH AND I'M NOT MEANING ALL WARDENS BUT THE ONES THAT WE MET, THEY MAKE WITH THOSE, THE CONDEMNED MEN IS THAT I WILL WALK YOU THROUGH THIS WITH AS MUCH DIGNITY AS POSSIBLE.

THE LAST DRUG IS POTASSIUM CHLORIDE WHICH WILL CEASE HEART FUNCTION.

AT THAT POINT, MEDICAL PERSONNEL WILL CONFIRM THE EXECUTION IS COMPLETE.

NOW IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS, YOU CAN BUT DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS?

DO YOU HAVE ANY FAMILY THAT WOULD LIKE TO CLAIM YOUR BODY?

THAT'S THEIR CO-WORKER.

THAT'S WHO THEY HAVE SEEN FOR 10, 15, 20 YEARS.

THEY GO TO WORK EVERY DAY AND THEN THAT GROUP HAS TO PUT DOWN ONE OF THEIR COLLEAGUES.

THIS FILM IS TOLD THROUGH THE EYES OF -- ITS NOT TOLD THROUGH THE EYES OF THE INCARCERATED PERSON.

IT'S TOLD THROUGH THE EYES OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CHARGED WITH EXECUTING HIM.

AND IT'S JUST AN INTERESTING WAY TO GO ABOUT THAT.

SO WHY WAS THAT YOUR APPROACH?

BECAUSE I THINK IT'S A WAY FOR ME TO WIDEN THE REACH OF THIS FILM IS TO TELL THE STORY FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF A PERPETRATOR OF THE SYSTEM.

A WAY FOR ME TO NOT JUST PREACH TO THE CHOIR BUT TO REALLY GET PEOPLE -- TO REALLY KIND OF GET PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE FOR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT OR WHO MIGHT HAVE NO REGARD FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED.

IT'S FOR ME TO TELL THE STORY FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF SOMEONE WHO THEY THINK MIGHT BE MORE IN LINE WITH THEIR VIEWS.

AND WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE THAT SAY, YOU KNOW, SO WHAT?

SO WHAT.

THEY DID SOMETHING BAD.

THEY HAVE TO SUFFER.

SO WHAT?

MY INTENTION WITH MAKING CLEMENCY WAS TO FOCUS ON THE GRAY AND I DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE THE NARRATIVE WITH MY OWN PERSONAL POLITICAL POSITION.

I THINK THE FILM IS A VERY UNSENTIMENTAL LOOK AT THE COMPLEXITY OF PEOPLE TIED TO THE SYSTEM FROM ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF PERSPECTIVES AND I THINK THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WATCH THE FILM ARE SAYING THAT I'M NOT TELLING YOU WHAT TO THINK.

I'M NOT TELLING YOU WHAT TO FEEL.

BUT I DO BELIEVE REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU THINK YOU WILL FEEL SOMETHING UPON WATCHING THIS FILM AND I THINK THAT THAT FEELING IS THE POTENTIAL START OF SOME CHANGE.

THE SMART THING THAT YOU DID IS YOU NEVER CONCERNED YOURSELF OR THE FILM WITH WHETHER ANTHONY IS INNOCENT OR GUILTY.

IT'S BESIDE THE POINT OF WHERE WE WANT TO TAKE THAT CONVERSATION.

IT'S GREAT.

THEY THOUGHT I COULD PLAY THAT RELATIONSHIP ROLE.

BUT THE FACT THAT WE'RE BOTH AFRICAN AMERICAN TAKES US PAST IT BECAUSE YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO GET STUCK ON RACE AND NEVER GET TO ANYTHING --

WITHOUT GIVING TOO MUCH AWAY, IN FACT, MOST OF THE RELEVANT CHARACTERS ARE AFRICAN AMERICAN.

I'LL JUST SAY THAT BECAUSE THERE WAS A REVEAL THAT I DON'T WANT TO GIVE AWAY.

IT'S ONE PERSON WAS WHITE AND ONE PERSON WAS BLACK I THINK THAT THE RACIAL DYNAMIC WILL OVERTAKE THE NARRATIVE AND WILL KIND OF UNDERCUT THE FOCUS ON THE HUMANITY AT STAKE THAT I REALLY WANT PEOPLE TO PAY ATTENTION TO.

WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S GIVING TOO MUCH AWAY TO SAY WHAT HOPE OPENS THE FILM IS A BOTCHED EXECUTION AND IT'S ROUTED IN THE NEWS.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THERE'S BEEN BOTCHED EXECUTIONS IN RECENT YEARS WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FORCED TO SUFFER BEYOND WHAT THE LAW ENVISIONED.

YEAH.

AND I WAS JUST CURIOUS THAT THE INTENTION OF THAT IS ITS A CRISIS FOR BERNADINE OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE SHE BELIEVES THAT SHE IS DOING EVERYTHING ACCORDING TO WHAT SHE HAS BEEN TAUGHT IS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT BUT IN A WAY DO YOU WANT THAT TO BE A CRISIS FOR US?

TO SAY THAT THERE IS NO WAY TO DO THIS?

HE SAID THAT THE PRICE OF HIS OWN DESTRUCTION.

IT'S THE WAY DO THIS WITHOUT DEHUMANIZING OURSELVES, ALL OF US.

ABSOLUTELY.

IN ORDER FOR US TO, WE IN TERM BECOME DEHUMANIZED AS WELL AND BERNADINE AND THE OTHER STAFF EVEN THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIM.

AND EVERYBODY IS AFFECTED BY THIS SYSTEMATIC KILLING AND THE SYSTEMATIC DEHUMANIZATION AND A PIECE OF THEM OR PIECES OF THEM ARE INCREMENTALLY TAKEN AS WELL.

ARE YOU WILLING TO OFFER AN ALTERNATIVE THOUGH, I'M SAYING YOU AS HUMAN BEINGS.

THIS ISN'T YOUR MAIN EXPERTISE.

ARE YOU WILLING TO OFFER AN ALTERNATIVE.

LOCKING PEOPLE UP FOR DECADES.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE FUNDAMENTAL SOCIETAL THINGS THAT WE NEED TO DO AND DISMANTLE AND WE NEED TO NOT CRIMINALIZE POVERTY AND NOT CRIMINALIZE PEOPLE FOR WHO ARE JUST SURVIVING AND PROVIDE BASIC NECESSITIES TO BE ABLE TO SURVIVE AND IT SHOULDN'T BE CONTINGENT ON HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE OR DON'T HAVE AND THAT'S SOME THINGS THAT COULD BE A DETURRENT TO CRIMES AND ALTERNATIVE TO PUTTING INCARCERATED PEOPLE FOR DECADES AND DECADES.

THAT DOESN'T SOLVE THE FOUNDATIONAL ISSUES THAT ARE IN OUR SOCIETY.

AND HEINOUS THINGS HAPPEN THERE AND PEOPLE ARE IMPRISONED.

IT'S JUST THAT IT SEEMS TO BE IN THE AMERICAN CULTURE TO ALWAYS GO OVERBOARD.

WHAT DID THEY SAY?

IT'S A WOMAN'S PRISON IN OHIO AND THERE'S ONLY A FEW HUNDRED WOMEN IN THAT PRISON THEY DID A GROUP AND LIVED ALL TOGETHER AND THEY WERE HOUSED TOGETHER AND THEY HAVE THESE SONGS OUT AROUND THE WORLD TO ESPECIALLY LONG PEOPLE THAT WERE ILL AND GAVE THEM SO MUCH JOY AND SO MUCH SENSE OF PURPOSE IF THESE WOMEN HAD BEEN SHOWN RESPECT.

IF THEY HAD THAT SENSE OF PURPOSE, THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE FOLLOWED WHOEVER THEY FOLLOWED INTO THAT.

WHAT ARE YOU HOPING THIS FILM WILL DO?

I HOPE IT EXPANDS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED.

I DEVELOPED A PASSION FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE INCARCERATED.

I HOPE THIS WILL INSPIRE PEOPLE NOT TO DEFINE PEOPLE BY THEIR WORSE POSSIBLE ACTS.

SO NOT WRITE OFF OF DISREGARD THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE THAT ARE IN CORRECTIVE CONTROL AND TO REALLY SEE THEMSELVES IN THEIR HUMANITY.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING.

REMEMBER YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER, THANKS FOR WATCHING.

AMANPOUR AND COMPANY ON PBS AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.