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> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
> NASRIN SOTOUDEH WAS AGAIN ARRESTED, TRIED AND CONVICTED IN ABSENTIA.
A NEW DOCUMENTARY SECRETLY FILMED IN IRAN TELLS THE HEROIC STORY OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER IMPRISONED FOR HER BRAVE AND TIRELESS WORK.
THEN --
> IT IS, IN FACT, A VERY SPECIAL MOMENT FOR MODERNA AND THE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN WORKING INTERNALLY AND THROUGHOUT OUR PARTNERSHIPS TO GET TO THIS POINT.
THE NEW LIGHT AT THE END OF THE COVID TUNNEL WITH A SECOND VACCINE ON THE BRINK OF U.S.
APPROVAL.
OUR WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS TO THE MODERNA COFOUNDER.
> 25 YEARS AFTER THE DAYTON ACCORDS ENDED THE BOSNIAN WAR, A NEW IN EACH FILM SHOWS A TURNING POINT OF GENOCIDE.
> AND FINALLY, A DEEP DIVE INTO DEEP DIVING.
I SPEAK WITH ALENKA ARTNIK, WORLD RECORD HOLDER FOR WOMEN'S DEEP DIVING.
AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
THIS PAST WEEK, IRANIAN JOURNALIST ROHAAZAM WAS EXECUTED BY HIS GOVERNMENT.
HE WAS HANGED AFTER BEING FOUND GUILTY OF THE VAGUE CHARGE OF CORRUPTION ON EARTH.
THE OUTCRY FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS BEEN SWIFT AND FURIOUS.
THE U.N. HUMAN RIGHTS CHIEF MICHELLE BASHELET CALLING IT APPALLING.
THE JOURNALIST'S EXECUTION ONCE AGAIN UNDERLINES THE PLIGHT OF IRANIANS WHO CHALLENGE THEIR GOVERNMENT.
PERHAPS THE MOST FAMOUS OF THESE IS THE POLITICAL PRISONER WORLD-RENOWNED NASRIN SOTOUDEH, A HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER WHO DEFENDS WOMEN, CHILDREN, AND THOSE SEEKING FREEDOM IN IRAN.
ANOTHER GLOBAL OUTCRY WAS RAISED WHEN HER HUSBAND TOLD THE WORLD SHE HAD BEEN SENTENCED TO 38 YEARS IN PRISON AND 148 LASHES.
NOW HER EXTRAORDINARY FIGHT FOR JUSTICE AND THE PERSONAL COST IS THE SUBJECT OF A NEW DOCUMENTARY 'NASRIN.'
HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.
A PROMINENT LAWYER IN IRAN FIGHTING FOR CHILDREN'S RIGHTS, WOMEN'S RIGHTS, AND HUMAN RIGHTS --
SHE IS ONE OF THE BRAVEST VOICES IN IRAN.
SHE TOOK ON CASES THAT OTHER LAWYERS WERE TOO AFRAID TO TAKE ON.
WE'VE SEEN NASRIN SOTOUDEH RIGHTS.
JAILED FOR DEFENDING HUMAN
IT HAS COST HER AND HER YOUNG FAMILY A LOT.
THE LAW FORCES IRANIAN WOMEN TO WEAR THE HIJAB --
THE COUNTRY'S MOST PROMINENT HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST, A VOICE FOR THE VOICELESS --
I'D BEEN IN IRAN MAYBE A WEEK AND I KNEW HOW TO TOE THE LINE AS A WOMAN.
THEN I MEET NASRIN, WHO DOESN'T TOE THE LINE AT ALL.
AGAIN ARRESTED, SHE HAS BEEN TRIED AND CONVICTED IN ABSENTIA.
ACCORDING TO HER HUSBAND, SHE INTENDS TO CONTINUE HER ACTIVISM FROM PRISON.
IT IS A DRAMATIC STORY THAT TOOK YEARS TO MAKE.
I'M JOINED FROM LOS ANGELES BY THE HUSBAND AND WIFE TEAM BEHIND IT.
DIRECTOR JEFF KAUFMANN AND PRODUCER MARCIA ROSS.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, WHAT MADE YOU DO THIS, AND HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT?
BECAUSE IN THE INTRODUCTION, ACTUALLY YOU HAVE A SLATE WHICH SAYS, THANKS TO ALL THE HEROIC CAMERA PEOPLE AND JOURNALISTS IN IRAN WHO DID IT BUT WANT TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS.
WELL, I'D DONE SEVERAL OTHER FILMS ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS IN IRAN, SOME WITH AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL.
EACH FILM GAVE ME A DEEPER AND DEEPER APPRECIATION OF IRANIAN PEOPLE, IRANIAN CULTURE, AND REALIZATION THAT THERE'S A BIG GAP, OFTEN, BETWEEN THE PEOPLE OF A COUNTRY AND THE LEADERSHIP OF A COUNTRY.
PART OF THAT PROCESS ALSO CONNECTED ME TO THE AMAZING WORK OF NASRIN SOTOUDEH, WHO I ADMIRED FROM AFAR.
OVER THE COURSE OF THIS FILM, WE'VE HAD A CHANCE TO ADMIRE FROM CLOSE UP, THOUGH STILL DISTANCED BY 7,000 MILES.
WE REACHED OUT TO HER IN 2016 TO ASK IF WE COULD DO A FILM ABOUT HER LIFE AND HER WORK.
AND WE BOTH HAD THE SAME FEELING AT THE VERY BEGINNING THAT THROUGH HER, IT WOULD BE A CONNECTION TO IRAN IN A DIFFERENT WAY, AND ALSO A PORTRAIT OF A WHOLE COMMUNITY OF ACTIVISTS.
NASRIN WOULD ALWAYS BE THE FIRST PERSON TO SAY HER WORK IS JUST PART OF A LARGER COMMUNITY EFFORT.
INDEED.
MARCIA, HE IS A VERY SELF-EFFACING WOMAN.
YOU WATCH THIS HOUR AND A HALF DOCUMENTARY, AND SHE'S NOT A FIREBRAND, IT'S NOT LIKE SHE'S CHALLENGING THE TENETS AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.
SHE'S JUST TRYING TO GET THE PEOPLE'S FREEDOMS WITHIN REASON OVER THERE, WHETHER IT'S THE FREEDOM TO DRESS HOW THEY LIKE, THE FREEDOM TO SPEAK, THE FREEDOM TO CONGREGATE WHERE AND WITH WHOM THEY WANT.
WHAT ABOUT HER PERSONALLY, DO YOU THINK, DID YOU FIND COMPELLING?
COMPELLING ENOUGH TO MAKE THIS FILM?
I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS ABOUT HER, AND I THINK YOU TOUCH UPON SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT, WHICH IS A UNIQUE QUALITY OF HER TO REMAIN BOTH EXTREMELY THOUGHTFUL ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT SHE'S DOING AND VERY, VERY TARGETED IN HOW SHE WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH THINGS, AND YET REMAINING INCREDIBLY CHARMING AT THE SAME TIME.
AND I THINK ONE THING I REALLY TOOK AWAY FROM HER IS HOW SHE ALWAYS PUTS EVERYONE FIRST.
RECENTLY YOU MAY KNOW SHE WAS OUT ON MEDICAL FURLOUGH, THEN SHE HAD TO RETURN UNEXPECTEDLY TO PRISON.
AND SHE USED THAT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO CRY OUT FOR JUSTICE ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ELSE.
THAT'S WHAT SHE'S DONE THROUGHOUT.
I THINK ALSO, AS A MOTHER MYSELF, I FOUND HER REMARKABLY -- THE ABILITY TO BALANCE HER PERSONAL LIFE AND PROFESSIONAL LIFE AND HER POLITICAL LIFE, HER ACTIVIST LIFE.
YOU KNOW, AND JUST MAKE IT ALL WORK IN SOME WAY.
IT WAS PRETTY REMARKABLE.
YOU KNOW, YOU ACTUALLY DO GIVE -- YOU REALLY DO SHOW THAT.
IT COMES THROUGH VERY, VERY LOUD AND CLEAR IN THE FILM.
BECAUSE YOU TALK TO HER HUSBAND, WHO IS JUST REMARKABLE.
I MEAN, HE IS SOMEBODY WHO SUPPORTS HER, WHO SUPPORTS THE FACT THAT SHE WOULDN'T WEAR A HIJAB, THE HAIR COVERING, IN PRIVATE.
SHE WAS VERY CLEAR.
SHE SAID, WHEN I HAVE TO WEAR IT IN ACCORDANCE TO THE LAW, I'LL WEAR IT, BUT NOT IN PRIVATE, AND NOT IN ANY SITUATIONS LIKE THAT.
AND HE SUPPORTED HER.
WE'VE GOT BEAUTIFUL PICTURES OF THEIR MARRIAGE, THEIR CHILDREN HAVE PAID SUCH A HEAVY PRICE FOR THIS.
TELL ME ABOUT -- I MEAN, HE OBVIOUSLY -- WHAT DOES HE THINK WHEN HE WAS TALKING TO YOU, PARTICULARLY NOW THAT SHE'S BACK IN JAIL?
DID HE THINK IT MIGHT BE DANGEROUS?
WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE TO SAY THAT, TO QUOTE MARCIA ROSS, SHE HAS OFTEN REFERRED TO NASRIN'S HUSBAND AS NASRIN'S MARTY GINSBURG, COMPARING NASRIN TO RUTH BADER GINSBURG.
YOU SEE IN THAT CONNECTION SOMEONE STRONG, BRILLIANT, DEDICATED, BUT ALSO VERY WILLING TO SUPPORT THE WORK OF HIS REMARKABLE WIFE.
AND THAT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
EVERY TIME WE'VE TALKED TO REZA, UNDER THE MOST DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES, AND NASRIN AS WELL, IT'S AMAZING HOW PERSONAL THEY ARE AT THE SAME TIME.
THEY ALWAYS SAY, WE'RE NOT THAT SPECIAL, WE'RE A REGULAR FAMILY DOING WHAT WE BELIEVE IN.
WE FIND ALWAYS SOMETHING TO LAUGH ABOUT AS FAR AS FAMILY IS CONCERNED.
THEN GOING TO THE BIG WORK THAT THEY'RE DOING.
I HAVE TO SAY THAT REZRA REPRESENTS PEOPLE, THE REMARKABLE PEOPLE BEHIND THE CAMERA THAT DID THIS FILM, IT'S REALLY INSPIRING.
ESPECIALLY AS WE SEE A STRUGGLE IN OUR COUNTRY FOR DEMOCRACY, PEOPLE WILLING TO PUT SO MUCH OF THEIR LIVES AT RISK FOR DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS IN THEIR COUNTRY.
IT REALLY IS.
IT'S ACTUALLY HUMBLING.
AS YOU SAY, A GREAT LOVE STORY BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM.
I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF -- IT'S ACTUALLY, I BELIEVE, iPHONE VIDEO THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO ACQUIRE.
SHE WAS DEFENDING A BOY WHO HAD BEEN ACCUSED OF MURDER WHEN HE WAS 15 YEARS OLD.
WHEN IT TURNED OUT THEY WERE GOING TO ACTUALLY EXECUTE HIM WHEN HE TURNED 19, 20, SHE RUSHED TO MEET THE FAMILY OUTSIDE THE JAIL OR OUTSIDE THE COURTHOUSE TO TRY TO STOP IT.
AND THEY GOT THE NEWS WHILE THEY WERE OUT THERE THAT HE HAD BEEN HANGED.
AND THIS IS JUST TRAGIC TO LISTEN AND WATCH THIS.
YOU CAN SEE EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE.
SHE'S FORMED SUCH A BOND WITH FAMILIES OF CLIENTS LIKE THAT.
WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT HER DETERMINATION, DESPITE THE ODDS?
WE'VE SEEN THE SCENES IN THE COURTHOUSE WHERE SHE WAS ACCUSED OF BEING A TOOL OF THE UNITED STATES.
I MEAN, JUST VERY, VERY DIFFICULT FOR HER JUST TO BE A LAWYER.
WELL, IT IS VERY INTERESTING.
YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE AFTER SHE GOT OUT OF PRISON THE PREVIOUS TIME, SHE DIDN'T HAVE TO CONTINUE HER WORK, YET SHE CHOSE TO GO ON, KNOWING THE RISKS.
AND I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING REALLY REMARKABLE ABOUT HER.
AND I THINK HER WILLINGNESS TO TAKE THESE RISKS, I THINK YOU SEE IN THE FILM, I THINK IT'S AN INSPIRATION TO OTHER PEOPLE TO TAKE RISKS.
AND SHE STANDS BY HER CLIENTS, AND SHE NEVER LETS THEM GO.
I THINK IT REALLY HELPS THEM BE STRONG IN THE WAYS THAT THEY NEED TO BE STRONG.
YOU KNOW, WE REALLY WANTED TO SHOW THE PERSONAL SIDE OF NASRIN, NOT JUST THE ACTIVIST SIDE.
YOU MENTIONED HER LOVE OF HER HUSBAND AND HER CHILDREN.
AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT JUST AS A PERSON, BUT ALSO TO REALLY FEEL THE SACRIFICE.
SHE'S BACK IN PRISON NOW UNDER HORRENDOUS CONDITIONS.
AND YOU CAN IMAGINE THE PAIN OF BEING YANKED AWAY FROM THE CHILDREN YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO SEE.
IT'S HEARTBREAKING.
ALSO, THERE'S KIND OF A REALLY BEAUTIFUL HUMANITY TO NASRIN, YOU KNOW, THAT TRANSCENDS EVERYTHING.
YOU KNOW, AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO WHAT MAKES HER REALLY SPECIAL IS THAT SHE CARES ABOUT PEOPLE.
IT'S NOT AS MUCH POLITICAL AS INTENSE HUMANITY AND CONCERN FOR THE WELL-BEING OF OTHER PEOPLE AND THE SURVIVAL OF THE NEXT GENERATION IN IRAN, INCLUDING HER CHILDREN AND OTHERS.
THAT'S SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT FOR US TO CONVEY AS WELL.
I'M GLAD YOU MENTIONED THAT, BECAUSE IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND.
AND EVEN THOSE WHO MIGHT BE WATCHING FROM IRAN.
THAT SHE WASN'T POLITICAL, IT WAS ABOUT INDIVIDUALS' FREEDOM AND INDIVIDUALS WHO SHE INSISTED ON DEFENDING FROM MISCARRIAGES OF JUSTICE AND A RIGGED JUDICIAL SYSTEM THAT WE SEE VERY CLEARLY, AND CERTAINLY I'VE REPORTED ON A LOT FROM THERE.
I WANT TO ASK YOU ALSO, BECAUSE WOMEN WERE HER PASSION AS WELL.
AND IN TERMS OF DEFENDING THEM AND THEIR RIGHTS.
AND PARTICULARLY AFTER THE FAMOUS DEMONSTRATIONS BY INDIVIDUAL WOMEN, YOUNG AND OLD, WHO, OBVIOUSLY WE ALL REMEMBER, TOOK OFF THEIR HIJABS, WAVED THEM, AND THAT'S WHEN SHE WENT BACK INTO JAIL FOR DEFENDING, YOU MENTIONED OTHERS.
WE WANT TO PLAY A CLIP OF WHERE SHE'S TALKING ONE INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY WHERE SHE'S OUT, ABOUT WHY THIS IS SO IMPORTANT.
SAYS IT RIGHT THERE.
IT'S NOT ABOUT POLITICAL, IT'S ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS AND INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS.
AND THERE WE SEE PICTURES OF WHAT IRAN WAS BEFORE THEY FORCED WOMEN INTO THE HIJAB AND BEFORE THEY CREATED, DURING THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC, THIS RAFT OF LAWS THAT DENIED WOMEN SO MANY LEGAL RIGHTS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK AND WHAT DO YOU HOPE WILL BE THE RESULT OF THIS FILM?
FOR HER AND, POTENTIALLY, REACTION OUTSIDE, IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE?
WELL, WE ALWAYS HOPED THAT THIS FILM COULD BE PART OF A PROCESS OF TEARING DOWN SOME BARRIERS AND CREATING UNDERSTANDING.
WE NEED TO -- PEOPLE IN BOTH COUNTRIES SHOULD HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF OUR HISTORY, WHICH IS OFTEN COMPLICATED AND PAINFUL, AS THE BEST WAY TO MOVE FORWARD.
TO NOT LET THE EXTREMISTS IN EITHER COUNTRY DETERMINE HOW WE DEAL WITH EACH OTHER OR UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER.
IT'S ALSO JUST IMPORTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE'S BEEN SUCH A WONDERFUL GRASSROOTS EFFORT AROUND THE WORLD ON BEHALF OF NASRIN AND OTHER POLITICAL PRISONERS, AND ALSO EFFORTS IN LIKE THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT.
RECENTLY THE U.S. SENT HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION COMMITTEE RELEASED A STATEMENT ABOUT NASRIN.
SO MANY INTERNATIONAL GROUPS AND INDIVIDUALS HAVE COME TOGETHER TO SUPPORT NASRIN AND CALL FOR HER RELEASE.
THAT KIND OF PUBLIC PRESSURE REALLY DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
AUTHORITATIVE REGIMES REALLY DO LISTEN TO THAT KIND OF PUBLIC PRESSURE.
WE HOPE PEOPLE WILL KEEP BEING A PART OF THAT GROUP EFFORT TO BOTH UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER BETTER, BUT ALSO CALL FOR PROPER TREATMENT OF THE SYSTEMS.
MARCIA, BRIEF LAST WORD FROM YOU?
WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND IN MAKING THE FILM IS THAT IRAN IS A VERY BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY, AND A MISUNDERSTOOD COUNTRY WITH AN INCREDIBLE CULTURE.
FOR MANY AMERICANS, AS YOU SAY, WE ONLY KNOW ABOUT IRAN THROUGH WHAT WE HEAR FROM OUR GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT TO GOVERNMENT.
IT'S ALL POLITICAL AND IT'S NOT REALLY ROOTED IN REALITY OF LIFE FOR PEOPLE THERE AND THE GORGEOUS COUNTRY THEY LIVE IN.
WE THINK IT'S REALLY -- FOR US, WE REALLY WANT TO CONVEY THAT IN THE FILM.
AGAIN, I USE THE WORD HUMANITY, BUT WE SHARE A COMMON HUMANITY, AND WE'D LIKE PEOPLE TO SEE THIS COUNTRY AS PEOPLE TO PEOPLE, NOT JUST GOVERNMENT TO GOVERNMENT.
I THINK THAT WILL REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE GOING FORWARD POLITICALLY.
MARCIA AND JEFFREY, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
FOR THE SAKE OF HUMANITY, THE WHOLE WORLD IS ROOTING FOR NASRIN SOTOUDEH AND DEMANDING THAT SHE BE RELEASED.
> WHILE COVID RAVAGES IRAN AS WELL, IT IS UNLIKELY TO RECEIVE A VACCINE ANY TIME SOON.
TERRIBLE RECORDS ARE ALSO BEING SET IN THE UNITED STATES, WHERE THE LARGEST VACCINE ROLLOUT IN ITS HISTORY IS NOW, OF COURSE, UNDER WAY.
VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE GOT HIS SHOT TODAY IN A PUBLIC WHITE HOUSE EVENT, WITH ONE CLEAR MESSAGE, AND THAT IS, SAFE AND EFFECTIVE.
AND NOW A SECOND VACCINE IS ENDORSED AND AWAITING APPROVAL BY THE FDA.
THE MODERNA COFOUNDER SPEAKS TO OUR WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE VACCINE AND THE CHALLENGES AHEAD.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW, AND THANK YOU AND CONGRATULATIONS.
TODAY, AS WE SPEAK, THE FDA IS APPROVING YOUR COMPANY'S VACCINE.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
IT IS A VERY SPECIAL MOMENT FOR MODERNA AND THE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WORKING INTERNALLY AND THROUGHOUT THE RELATIONSHIPS TO GET TO THIS POINT.
HOW MANY DOSES ARE GOING TO BE DISTRIBUTED IN THE NEXT MONTH AND THE NEXT TWO MONTHS?
NEXT WEEK, 6 MILLION DOSES OR SO READY TO BE SHIPPED OUT.
IN DECEMBER, WE'RE AIMING FOR 20 MILLION DOSES.
THEN IT WILL BE RAMPED UP FROM THERE TO 30 MILLION IN JANUARY.
THEN GETTING -- BY THE END OF MARCH, WE EXPECT THEY'LL SHIP ANOTHER 100 MILLION DOSES.
THAT'S THE FIRST 100 MILLION WHICH THE U.S. HAS COMMITTED TO.
WHAT'S THE NEXT OPTION FOR THE U.S. TO GET 100 MILLION?
THAT WILL CONTINUE INTO THE SECOND QUARTER.
AND WE HAVE, AS HAS BEEN DISCLOSED RECENTLY, WE HAVE RECEIVED THE EXERCISE NOTICE BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT OF THE SECOND 100 MILLION-DOSE ORDER.
ACCORDING TO THE ORIGINAL RELATIONSHIP WE SET UP, THE U.S.
GOVERNMENT HAS THE ABILITY TO PURCHASE UP TO 500 MILLION DOSES OF OUR OUTPUT.
AND SO FAR, WE'VE RECEIVED 200 MILLION, AND WE'LL BE GEARING UP TO PRODUCE AND SHIP THOSE.
DO YOU THINK IT WILL GET TO 500 MILLION IN THE U.S. THIS YEAR, COMING YEAR?
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.
I CAN'T SPECULATE, BECAUSE IT DEPENDS SO MUCH ON RATE OF UPTAKE, ON AVAILABILITY OF OTHER VACCINES, AND THINGS WELL BEYOND OUR CONTROL.
BUT WHAT WE HAVE DONE IS TO AGREE TO SECURE THE AVAILABILITY, AND AS TIME GOES ON WE'LL LEARN ABOUT WHETHER THOSE OPTIONS ARE, IN FACT, TAKEN.
OR FULFILLED ELSEWHERE.
THE NEWS THIS MORNING THAT'S SOMEWHAT DISCONCERTING INVOLVES THE OTHER APPROVED VACCINE, THE BIONTECH-PFIZER ONE, THE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM, GOVERNORS SAYING THEY AREN'T GETTING THE AMOUNTS THEY EXPECTED, THINGS AREN'T WORKING.
HOW CLOSELY ARE YOU WORKING WITH THE DISTRIBUTION PEOPLE AT 'WARP SPEED,' AND ARE YOU WORRIED, CONCERNED, ABOUT THIS SORT OF MESS-UP, IT SEEMS, OF DID?
WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON'T -- AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, I DON'T HAVE DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF ACTUALLY WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THAT TOPIC, SIMPLY BECAUSE IT'S QUITE SPECIFIC TO THE PRODUCER AND THE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM THAT THEY HAVE PUT IN PLACE, WHICH IS A BIT DIFFERENT THAN OURS.
AS YOU MAY REMEMBER, IN OUR CASE, THE GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DISTRIBUTION OF OUR VACCINE.
AND SO THERE'S A LOT OF PLANNING THAT'S GONE INTO PLACE.
EVERYTHING I'VE SEEN SO FAR WITH THE SYSTEM THAT'S BEEN PUT IN PLACE BY GENERAL PARTA AND HIS PEOPLE IS TOP-CLASS PERFORMANCE.
OF COURSE WE HAVE SOME DEGREE OF ANTICIPATION AS WE HOPE OUR VACCINE STARTS GETTING SHIPPED THAT WE NOT RUN INTO ANY UNPREDICTABLE SITUATIONS, BUT I CAN'T COMMENT ON THE EXACT SPECIFICS OF WHAT MAY BE HAPPENING.
YOU KNOW, THIS TYPE OF UNDERTAKING IS SO UNPRECEDENTED IN TERMS OF THIS VOLUME OVERNIGHT OF DISTRIBUTING VACCINES TO EVERY STATE, TO EVERY CORNER OF THIS COUNTRY, THAT ONE CAN EXPECT SOME INITIAL, I'M SURE, BUMPS IN THE ROAD, WHICH I HOPE WILL BE ADDRESSED, AND I'M SURE WILL BE ADDRESSED QUICKLY ON THE SIDE OF OUR COLLEAGUES AT PFIZER.
THIS IS A WELL-ESTABLISHED COMPANY WHICH HAS VAST RESOURCES TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS ANY OBSTACLE.
SO I'M OPTIMISTIC ON THEIR BEHALF, AND I'M HOPEFUL ON OURS.
THERE ARE 310,000 PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES WHO HAVE DIED.
WE'RE LOSING ABOUT 3,500 A DAY AT THIS MOMENT.
HOW MUCH PRESSURE DO YOU FEEL IN SUCH AN URGENT SITUATION TO MAKE SURE THIS COMES OUT RIGHT?
YOU KNOW, WALTER, THOSE NUMBERS ARE SUPER MEANINGFUL TO ALL OF US, INCLUDING IN MY CASE WHERE I'VE HAD THE DISEASE.
IN FACT, FATALLY, A MEMBER OF MY FAMILY.
SO I DON'T NEED TO FEEL IT ANYMORE, I HAVE A SATURATING AMOUNT OF FOCUS ON MAKING SURE WE ARE DOING WHAT WE CAN.
ON THE OTHER HAND, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE PRODUCTION OF SOMETHING THAT I'LL CALL HIGH-TECH IN THE CONTEXT OF MEDICINE, AS OPPOSED TO THE PILLS WE DID SOMETIMES THAT REALLY DO RELY ON VERY DIFFERENT TECHNOLOGIES, I THINK WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT THERE'S ONLY THAT MUCH WE CAN DO.
THE PRESSURE IS, WAS HIGH, IS HIGH.
I'M NOT SURE IT CAN GET A LOT HIGHER, BECAUSE WE JUST HAVE TO KIND OF BE ABLE TO CONSIDER IT A FUNCTION AND DELIVER.
I'M QUITE CONFIDENT THAT THE TEAM AT MODERNA, LED BY A VERY, VERY CAPABLE LEADER WHO'S BEEN IN THE PHARMA BUSINESS FOR DECADES, THAT WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN.
YOU'VE MADE A LOT OF IMPROVEMENTS IN THE PARTICLES AND THE WAY IT CAN BE STORED OVER THE YEARS.
HOW MUCH OF THAT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND THE PATENTS ARE YOU SHARING WITH OTHERS AND WHAT'S YOUR POLICY ON THAT?
IN FACT, MODERNA HAD STARTED GOING DOWN THIS PATH 10 YEARS AGO, HAS AMASSED QUITE A SUBSTANTIAL INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY POSITION, AS WELL AS SECURING ACCESS TO ANY OTHER INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE IN THIS VAST SPACE.
AS WE APPROACHED THE COMMERCIAL STAGE, THINKING ABOUT THE NEXT TWO, THREE YEARS IS WHEN WE WOULD HAVE NORMALLY REACHED THAT, WE CERTAINLY LOOKED AT OUR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY WITH A VIEW TOWARDS ENSURING THAT OUR SHAREHOLDERS WHO INVESTED IN THIS ARE BENEFICIARIES OF THAT.
BUT WITH THE COVID SITUATION, WE REALIZED THAT THE WORLD NEEDED MULTIPLE VACCINES, MULTIPLE SIMILAR VACCINES, FOR THAT MATTER.
SO A FEW MONTHS AGO, WE TOOK THE DECISION AND ANNOUNCED THAT THE PATENTS THAT MAY COVER OTHER COVID VACCINES THAT ARE USING SIMILAR OR THE SAME TECHNOLOGY, WE WOULD NOT -- CHOOSE NOT TO ENFORCE DURING THE PANDEMIC SO THAT WE WOULD ENABLE OTHERS TO BE ABLE TO MAKE VACCINES FREE AND CLEAR FROM CONCERN OVER THAT.
AND THIS WAS PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED.
AND WE EVEN OFFERED LONGER-TERM LICENSES TO FOLKS FOR COVID-19 VACCINES, SHOULD THEY WISH TO TAKE THEM, EVEN BEYOND THE PANDEMIC.
WHEN THE FDA PANEL LOOKED AT THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, THEY WORRIED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT NOT USING IT ON CHILDREN, PEOPLE WITH ALLERGIES, PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE PREGNANT, AND WORRIED TOO A LITTLE BIT ABOUT BELL'S PALSY.
TELL ME ABOUT THE CONCERNS PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE WITH THIS VACCINE.
EVEN WITH A TRIAL OF 30,000 SUBJECTS, THERE ARE OBSERVATIONS THAT IF WE GO UP TO 30 MILLION SUBJECTS MAY REVEAL THEMSELVES THAT WE'RE NOT FULLY AWARE OF OR FULLY CHARACTERIZED.
IN THE 30,000 SUBJECT TRIAL THAT WE'VE DONE, THE PHASE 3 TRIAL, WE HAVE OBSERVED AND REPORTED ON FOUR BELL'S PALSY SITUATIONS.
ONE WAS IN THE PLACEBO, THREE IN THE VACCINE.
THIS IS A REACTION SEEN IN MANY OTHER VACCINES AS WELL.
IT IS A SERIOUS BUT REVERSIBLE CONDITION, OFTEN, AND IN THESE CASES IT WAS.
WHAT IT TELLS US -- AND THERE WERE OTHER OBSERVATIONS AS WELL.
WHAT IT TELLS US IS THAT WE NEED TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THAT AND MONITOR IT, LIKE WE DO WITH OTHER VACCINES.
AND MORE BROADLY, WITH CHILDREN, I THINK THE SAFE APPROACH IS TO GIVE US A BIT OF TIME TO TEST IN A TRIAL THAT WE'VE ALREADY ANNOUNCED THE 12 TO 18-YEAR-OLD REGIME, AND THEN 6 MONTH TO 12-YEAR-OLDS, WHICH IS COMING EARLY NEXT YEAR.
SO WE WANT TO GENERATE DATA TO ARM THESE DECISIONS.
I THINK THE CONCERN IS RATHER ABOUT THE LACK OF DATA, NOT A PARTICULAR CONCERN THAT IS RELATED TO THE VACCINE OR A MECHANISM OR THE DISEASE.
IT'S SIMPLY THAT WE JUST HAVEN'T HAD THE ABILITY TO GENERATE EVEN MORE DATA, EVEN MORE SUBGROUPS, TO FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH A BROADER USE OF THE VACCINE.
VICE PRESIDENT PENCE GOT HIS VACCINE TODAY.
PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NOT SAID IF OR WHEN HE WILL DO IT.
ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT MIXED MESSAGES COMING OUT?
I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL THAT WE NOT JUDGE EVERYTHING AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT IN TIME.
BUT SEQUENTIALLY, SO OVER THE NEXT DAYS, OVER THE NEXT WEEKS, I THINK THAT MANY OF THE LEADERSHIP, IF NOT MOST, IF NOT ALL, SHOULD CONSIDER AS PART OF THEIR LEADERSHIP MANDATE, TO CONSIDER WHETHER TO TAKE THE VACCINE AND TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE IN THEIR OWN WAYS HOW THEY'VE MADE THAT CHOICE.
SAME WITH THE HEALTH CARE PROFESSION, SAME WITH THE LEADERSHIP IN CORPORATIONS AND NONPROFITS, ET CETERA, CLERGY.
I THINK THAT SOCIETY WILL BE LOOKING FOR ALL OF US IN SOME WAY TO BE TRANSPARENT WITH OUR DECISION PROCESS.
AND SO I KNOW MANY OF THE FORMER PRESIDENTS HAVE INDICATED READINESS.
I LOOK FORWARD TO EVERYBODY WEIGHING THE SCIENCE, FOLLOWING THE GUIDANCE THAT THE LIKES OF DR. FAUCI AND OTHERS HAVE CLEARLY LAID OUT, AND THE FDA, AND TO ACT ACCORDINGLY.
BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE OF NOT TAKING THE VACCINE IS NOT THAT THE VIRUS IS GOING TO SOMEHOW GO AWAY.
THE VIRUS WILL PERSIST, AND WE NEED TO ACT IN A WAY THAT WE BALANCE AND WEIGH THE PROS AND CONS OF NOT TAKING A VACCINE VERSUS TAKING ONE.
WITH THE INCOMING BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?
I HAVE NOT PERSONALLY HAD CONTACT WITH THEM AS OF YET.
I KNOW THAT FOLKS WITHIN MODERNA, WE HAVE AN ACTIVE GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS GROUP THAT HAVE HAD TOUCH POINTS.
WE'VE KEPT THEM BRIEFED THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS, MAKING SURE THAT THEY HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION THEY NEED, AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING WITH THEM AND WITH ALL THE STATES AND EVERYBODY WHO'S NOW FEELING THE RESPONSIBILITY OF SAFELY DISTRIBUTING THE VACCINE AND MAKING SURE TO PREVENT INFECTION.
OF THE VACCINES ROLLING OUT, THREE-QUARTERS OF THEM SEEM TO BE DEDICATED TO WHAT I WOULD CALL THE RICH COUNTRIES.
WHAT'S GOING TO BE DONE TO HELP THE POORER COUNTRIES TO MAKE SURE THIS DOESN'T REMAIN A GLOBAL PANDEMIC?
I FORESEE TWO DIFFERENT APPROACHES.
ONE OF THEM IS THAT THERE ARE INTERNATIONAL BODIES SUCH AS COVAX THAT HAVE BEEN SET UP TO AGGREGATE PURCHASE ON BEHALF OF MIDDLE TO LOWER-INCOME COUNTRIES ADEQUATE SUPPLIES AND FAIRLY DISTRIBUTE THEM.
OF COURSE, THEIRS IS AN UNENVIABLE ROLE, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 100-PLUS COUNTRIES, EACH WITH THEIR OWN LAWS, THEIR OWN PREFERENCES.
SO THEY'RE UNDERTAKING A TRULY IMPRESSIVE AND IMPORTANT EFFORT.
NOW THEY IN TURN ARE WORKING WITH SUPPLIERS, INCLUDING MODERNA, TO ENSURE SUPPLIES, ADEQUATE SUPPLIES, TIMELY SUPPLIES.
OF COURSE, EACH ONE OF OUR VACCINES IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.
STORAGE, PERFORMANCE, COST, ET CETERA.
AND EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THAT FROM A COST STANDPOINT, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE MAKE THE VACCINE AVAILABLE, PARTICULARLY TO LOWER AND MIDDLE-INCOME COUNTRIES IN A WAY THAT CAN BE AFFORDED GLOBALLY.
AND THOSE DISCUSSIONS ARE ACTIVELY UNDER WAY, AND I'M SURE IT WILL LEAD TO ACCESS FROM ALL OF THE VACCINE SUPPLIERS IN TIME.
AND WE HOPE IT GOES FASTER, AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.
PRESIDENT LARRY BACOW OF HARVARD USED YOUR NAME IN A LETTER HE JUST SENT TO PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN ABOUT THIS ISSUE OF IMMIGRATION.
AND HE POINTED OUT THAT 50% OF THE Ph.Ds IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW IN SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING ARE FROM PEOPLE WHO WERE BORN OVERSEAS.
AND THAT ONE-THIRD OF THE U.S.
NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS IN SCIENCE ARE PEOPLE COME FROM OVERSEAS.
AND THAT WE THUS NEED TO GET BACK TO AN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM THAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO COME HERE AND STUDY AND THEN STAY, AS OPPOSED TO BEING SENT OUT.
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT BEING PART OF THAT LETTER, OR MENTIONED IN THAT LETTER, AND ABOUT U.S.
IMMIGRATION POLICY WHEN IT COMES TO SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING STUDENTS?
WELL, OBVIOUSLY I WAS SURPRISED AT THE MENTION PRESIDENT BACOW MADE, AND HONORED TO SOME EXTENT THAT HE USED MY EXAMPLE TO DEMONSTRATE THE POINT THAT IF WE CONTINUE DOWN A PATH WHERE WE EXCLUDE PEOPLE WHO COME TO THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY EXPECT TO CONTRIBUTE, BUT ALSO BENEFIT FROM THE OPPORTUNITIES WE PRESENT, THAT WE MAY NOT HAVE MANY INNOVATIONS IN ANY FIELD.
NOT JUST IN SCIENCE -- THAT WE NOW BENEFIT FROM.
I FELT A LITTLE BIT OF AN EXTRA BURDEN I HAVE TO CARRY TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT CONTINUES TO BE THE CASE.
BUT THE POINT IS A VALID ONE.
AND I MUST SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, AMERICANS WHO COME FROM OUTSIDE ONLY FEEL LIKE IMMIGRANTS WHEN THEY'RE MADE TO FEEL LIKE IMMIGRANTS.
I THINK ALL OF US WOULD RATHER FEEL LIKE AMERICANS.
WE ABSOLUTELY WANT TO BE CONSIDERED AND ACT AS THIS IS OUR COUNTRY, AND WE ALL HAVE ONE COMMON MISSION TO CREATE OPPORTUNITIES.
I DO THINK THAT THE TALK ABOUT IMMIGRATION IS WHAT'S CAUSED A LOT OF US TO FEEL LIKE, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE, THAT'S ME THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT 35 YEARS AGO.
AND I LOOK FORWARD TO THE TIME WHEN I CAN FEEL, AS AN IMMIGRANT, I MEAN, AS AN AMERICAN AGAIN, AND NOT JUST AS AN IMMIGRANT.
WHAT'S NEXT FOR MESSENGER RNA VACCINES, WHICH MODERNA HAS PIONEERED?
AND WHAT'S NEXT FOR MODERNA?
WELL, 12 MONTHS AGO, AS WE WERE WRAPPING UP 2019, WE WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO A GLORIOUS YEAR OF VACCINE DEVELOPMENT AT MODERNA WHICH HAD EVERYTHING BUT COVID ON ITS LIST.
WE HAD SOME 10 DIFFERENT VACCINES WE ALREADY WERE WORKING ON.
WE CONTINUE TO MOVE THOSE FORWARD.
BUT OF COURSE, GIVEN THE UNEXPECTED PROOF POINT THAT THE COVID-19 VACCINE HAS REPRESENTED, WE NOW LOOK FORWARD TO INTENSIFYING AND EXPANDING OUR EFFORTS, INCLUDING IN A QUITE SIGNIFICANT WAY IN THE AREA OF INFLUENZA.
I DO THINK THAT IN INFLUENZA, WE GENERALLY COLLECTIVELY NOT LOOK TO ATTACK IT MORE STRONGLY FEARING THAT THERE'S ALREADY VACCINES AND MAYBE WE CAN'T DO ANY BETTER.
I THINK IT BEHOOVES US TO ASSUME WE CAN DO BETTER THAN WHAT'S OUT THERE IN GENERAL AND FAIL TRYING.
AND THAT'S WHAT WE'LL DO WITH MANY DIFFERENT VIRUSES, INFLUENZA BEING AMONG THEM.
WE'VE WORKED IN THE PAST ON HIV.
THAT'S AN AREA WE MAY CERTAINLY STUDY FURTHER WITH COLLABORATORS.
I SHOULD MENTION PARENTHETICALLY THAT ONE OF OUR KEY AREAS OF VACCINE FOCUS IS CANCER.
BECAUSE IF WE COULD TRAIN THE IMMUNE SYSTEM TO DETECT THE VULNERABILITIES OF A PATIENT'S UNIQUE SIGNATURE OF MUTATION, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE THE IMMUNE SYSTEM TO GO AFTER CANCER.
AND THERE'S CERTAINLY EARLY INDICATIONS OF THAT.
SO BOTTOM LINE, I THINK THE MESSENGER RNA MOLECULE APPLIED BROADLY, AND SEE WHERE THE DATA TAKES US.
WHERE DATA SUGGESTS WE WILL HAVE AN EFFECT, WE WILL PURSUE IT.
DR. NOUBAR AFEYAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND THANK YOU IN WHAT YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO IN ROLLING OUT A VACCINE.
THANK YOU, WALTER.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME AGAIN.
> THE SCIENCE REALLY IS GALLOPING ALONG.
25 YEARS AGO, THE DAYTON ACCORDS BROUGHT PEACE TO BOSNIA AFTER A RIVER OF BLOOD FLOWED THROUGH THE BALKANS.
THE TRIGGER FOR DIPLOMACY WAS THE 1995 MASSACRE OF AN ESTIMATED 8,000 MUSLIM MEN AND BOYS UNDER THE NOSES OF THE UNITED NATIONS PEACEKEEPING FORCES WHO WERE SENT TO PROTECT THEM.
IT WAS THE WORST ATROCITY ON EUROPEAN SOIL SINCE WORLD WAR II, AND IT FINALLY FORCED THE WEST TO INTERVENE AND STOP THAT WAR.
NOW A HIGHLY ACCLAIMED NEW MOVIE TELLS THE STORY OF A LOCAL TRANSLATOR WHO BEARS WITNESS TO IT ALL.
HERE'S A CLIP, A GLIMPSE BEHIND THE SCENES AS THE BOSNIAN SERB GENERAL, NOW A CONVICTED WAR CRIMINAL, VISITS A BURNED-OUT VILLAGE THAT HAS JUST FALLEN TO HIS FORCES.
THAT CLIP SHOWS WHAT WAS KEY THROUGHOUT THE WAR, AND THAT WAS THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE.
THAT IS, THE BOSNIAN SERB LEADER TELLING HIS PEOPLE, THIS IS WHAT WE DID FOR YOU.
JOINING ME IS THE WRITER/DIRECTOR OF THE FILM, COMING TO US FROM HER HOME CITY.
IT'S A POWERFUL FILM, AND RARE TO SEE A FEATURE FILM, I'M SO USED TO SEEING DOCUMENTARIES ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN BOSNIA.
IT REALLY PACKS A PUNCH.
IT REALLY LOOKS LIKE WHAT WE ALL WITNESSED THERE.
TELL ME ABOUT WHAT MADE YOU MAKE IT.
THANK YOU, GOOD EVENING.
SO I WAS 20 WHEN I -- 17 WHEN THE WAR STARTED, 20 WHEN THIS HAPPENED.
WE ALL BELIEVED THAT IT WAS A SAFE AREA, PROTECTED BY U.N.
WHEN IT WAS TAKEN BY SERBIAN ARMY, SUDDENLY THE WHOLE SYSTEM FELL APART.
YOU KNOW, IF VIOLENCE IS WINNING OVER UNITED NATIONS, IF IT'S WINNING OVER ALL HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE, IF IT'S WINNING AFTER WE SAID NEVER AGAIN AFTER HOLOCAUST, THEN WHAT IS LEFT?
THIS SHOCKED ME FOR YEARS.
I WAS NOT AWARE IMMEDIATELY THAT I WANTED TO MAKE A FILM, BUT IT WAS ALWAYS LIKE A FIRE IN ME THAT I WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
LATER ON WE FOUND OUT HOW MANY PEOPLE GOT KILLED, IN WHICH WAY, THEY WERE BURIED IN MASS GRAVES, THEN TAKEN FROM THESE MASS GRAVES TO OTHER MASS GRAVES IN ORDER TO HIDE THE CRIMES.
I MET MOTHERS WHOSE STORY WAS UNBEARABLY PAINFUL, AND THEIR DIGNITY WAS SUCH INSPIRATION, HOW THEY WERE GOING THROUGH LIFE WITH THIS PAIN, HOW THEY WERE TRYING TO BUILD SOCIETY NEVER BASED ON REVENGE OR -- JUST SEEKING FOR JUSTICE AND FOR THE BODIES OF THEIR SONS, HUSBANDS, FAMILIES.
THAT'S WHAT MY INSPIRATION, HOW EVERYTHING.
INDEED.
THE MOTHERS FORCED THIS ISSUE TO STAY IN THE SPOTLIGHT, UNTIL FINALLY THEY WOULD GET JUSTICE.
IT IS TRUE NOW THAT THE MAIN PERPETRATORS OF THAT WAR AND THE GENOCIDAL CRIME OF THE MASSACRE ARE BEHIND BARS AT THE HAGUE.
THEY DID SEE THEIR DAY IN COURT, THEY HAVE BEEN CONVICTED.
BEFORE WE GET INTO THE FILM, ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH THAT?
LOOK, WHENEVER OBSERVING THE TRIAL, WHEN HE WAS SENTENCED, I THOUGHT I WOULD FEEL A KIND OF CLOSING OF THE CHAPTER.
IT WAS, YOU KNOW -- HALF OF MY LIFE WAS SOMEHOW CONNECTED WITH THIS POST-WAR SITUATION, THE STRESS OF IT, THE TRAUMA OF IT.
I FELT, OKAY, I WILL BE HAPPY BECAUSE SOMETHING IS OVER.
BUT I WASN'T.
I WAS THINKING NOT THAT I WAS NOT SATISFIED WITH THE TRIAL AND EVERYTHING, THAT WAS FINE.
BUT I WAS THINKING, WHAT IS THE -- WHAT WAS LEFT AFTER HIS ACT?
SERBS ARE UNHAPPY.
THEY LIVE VERY POORLY.
SO MANY DEAD PEOPLE.
SO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING BECAUSE THEIR LOVED ONES ARE KILLED.
WHAT IS LEFT AFTER THIS MAN?
ONLY MISERY.
I FELT REALLY, REALLY MISERABLE THAT THESE KIND OF FORCES MADE MY COUNTRY SO UNHAPPY.
AND THEY DIDN'T ACHIEVE ANYTHING, EVEN FOR THEIR PEOPLE.
IT'S REALLY REMARKABLE TO HEAR YOU PUT IT THAT WAY.
LET'S GET TO THE FILM.
AIDA PLAYS THE ROLE OF A MUSLIM RESIDENT, AND SHE IS EMPLOYED AS A TRANSLATOR, AS SO MANY PEOPLE WERE IN BOSNIA, FOR THE U.N.
FORCES.
THIS WAS A DUTCH CONTINGENT.
AS YOU SAY, THEY WERE THERE UNDER U.N. MANDATE, WHICH WAS TO PROTECT THE SAFE AREA.
AND HERE WE SEE THESE PICTURES, WE'RE PLAYING A CLIP, OF HER AS SHE'S TRANSLATING WHERE ALL THESE HUGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE SHOULD GO AFTER THEY'VE FLED THE FALL OF THE CITY.
TELL ME ABOUT AIDA.
WHY DID YOU FOCUS ON A TRANSLATOR?
IT'S AN INTERESTING THING.
WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE TITLE?
YES.
I WANTED TO TELL STORY FROM FEMALE PERSPECTIVE, BECAUSE I THINK THERE WERE A LOT OF WAR FILMS DONE BY MEN.
AND I ALWAYS FEEL I DON'T SHARE THE SAME FEELING FOR SPECTACULARITY OF WAR.
I FEEL WAR IS JUST BANALITY OF EVIL, AND I RARELY SEE THIS IN THE MOVIES.
I WANTED A FEMALE CHARACTER WHO WILL LEAD US THROUGH THE FILM, THAT PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO BE IN HER SHOES FOR THIS 103 MINUTES, THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO DECIDE WHAT SHE HAS TO DO.
BECAUSE SHE'S IN SUCH AMBIVALENT POSITION.
SHE'S WITH U.N. TRANSLATING FOR THEM AND HAVING MORE INFORMATION THAN ANYBODY ELSE, AND ALSO HAVING U.N. BADGE, WHICH MEANS SHE'S ABLE TO DO MORE THAN ANY BOSNIANS.
BUT HER FAMILY IS BOSNIAN, SO SHE'S IN BETWEEN THESE TWO WORLDS AND ABLE TO SEE BOTH.
I WANTED TO NOT ONLY TO SHOW WHAT HAPPENED IN THESE DAYS OF JULY, BUT ALSO TO CONNECT FILM WITH LIFE TODAY.
AND I WAS RETURNING TO THIS AREA, WHICH FOR ME WHEN I TALK TO WOMEN THERE, IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING THAT THEY HAVE COURAGE TO GO BACK AND LOOK INTO THE EYES OF PERPETRATORS.
BECAUSE THEY LIVE THERE.
THOUGH THE MAIN ONES ARE SENTENCED, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THERE, IN THE POLICE STRUCTURES, IN THE STATE STRUCTURES, THAT HAD BLOODY HANDS IN WAR, AND THEY ARE NOT SENTENCED, ALL OF THEM.
SO THIS GOING BACK, YOU KNOW, WHICH IS ALSO STORY FROM BIBLE, WAS FOR ME SOMETHING WHICH WAS VERY TOUCHING.
TO GO BACK AND NOT TO HAVE THIS SAINT WHICH WAS SOMEWHERE ELSE, BUT SAINTS FOR ME ARE WOMEN, ESPECIALLY WOMEN FROM HERE.
SHE REALLY DOES STAND OUT IN THE WAY YOU PORTRAYED HER.
YOU TALK ABOUT THIS BOSNIAN VILLAGE, IT'S NOW KEPT, AFTER DAYTON, BY THE PEOPLE WHO TOOK IT OVER, THE SERBS, AS YOU SAY.
WE ARE TALKING NOW, IT IS 25 YEARS SINCE DAYTON WHICH STOPPED THE WAR, AND THIS VILLAGE WAS THE TRIGGER FOR THAT.
BUT IT SOLIDIFIED THE ETHNIC BARRIERS AND BOUNDARIES AND THE NATIONALISM.
WHAT ARE YOUR FEELINGS TODAY?
DO YOU THINK THAT ANOTHER GENERATION OF BOSNIANS AND PEOPLE WHO BELONG TO YOUR COUNTRY CAN TRY TO KNIT THE COUNTRY BACK AGAIN, OR IS IT TOO LATE?
LOOK, IT'S VERY HARD.
WE WERE NOT ABLE TO FILM THERE BECAUSE A MAJOR DENIES THE GENOCIDE HAPPENED.
SO THERE ARE STILL FORCES, POLITICAL FORCES, WHO ARE HAVING THE SAME KIND OF LANGUAGE AND HATE LIKE IN '90s.
PEOPLE KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, THESE FORCES ARE GONE.
WE CANNOT SAY PEACE IS JUST AND NOTHING IS WRONG.
THERE ARE MANY, MANY THINGS WHICH ARE VERY PROBLEMATIC.
WHAT I FIND ALSO VERY HARD IS THAT THIS IDEOLOGY IS SPREAD THROUGH SCHOOL SYSTEMS, THROUGH MEDIA, YOU KNOW.
KIDS DON'T LEARN ABOUT THIS IN A PROPER WAY THROUGH MEDIA.
THEY ARE HEARING ABOUT THIS BIG CLASHES OF NARRATIVE, NOT EFFECT, NOT TRULY WHAT HAPPENED.
THIS IS A VERY HARD QUESTION, BUT FOR EXAMPLE, WE PREMIERED OUR FILM IN MEMORIAL CENTER HERE.
VERY FIRST SCREENING WAS FOR YOUNG PEOPLE.
WE DECIDED, WE DON'T WANT THE FILM TO BE CAPTURED BY ANY POLITICAL PARTIES, ANY SIDE.
THIS IS A FILM THAT IS ART PIECE THAT TALKS ABOUT THE CITY, BUT DEDICATED TO PEOPLE TODAY.
WE SHOW THE FILM TO YOUNG PEOPLE FROM SERBIA, CROATIA, AND BOSNIA.
ALL BOSNIA.
AND IT WAS SO MOVING TO TALK AFTER THAT.
ONE BOY SAID HE WAS CRYING THROUGH THE WHOLE FILM.
AND HE WISHES HIS FRIENDS TO SEE THIS FILM AND TO REALIZE WHAT THEY ARE CELEBRATING.
A HERO, EXACTLY.
I THINK YOU REALLY JUST SUMMED IT UP, JUST THE FACT THAT YOU HAD THAT EFFECT ON ONE BOSNIAN SERBIAN BOY IS PRETTY AMAZING.
AND THAT'S WHAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE, ISN'T IT?
IT'S GOING TO TAKE PEOPLE SEEING THE TRUTH.
I WANT TO PLAY ANOTHER CLIP FROM THE FILM, BECAUSE IT STILL IS REALLY DRAMATIC.
AND THIS IS BASICALLY THE EVIDENCE OF THE DUTCH TRYING TO CALL FOR AIR STRIKES AS HE WAS AT THE TIME BOMBING AND SHELLING, AND THEY WERE DESPERATELY TRYING TO GET THE UNITED NATIONS TO STOP -- AND YOU CAN SEE THE RESULT.
LET'S PLAY THIS CLIP.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE AIR STRIKES?
MR. SECRETARY-GENERAL?
NO, NO, SURELY NOT.
YOU -- YOU HAVE TO GET ME SOMEONE TO TALK TO.
YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT THE ENTIRE U.N. CHAIN OF COMMAND IS VACATIONING?
WHAT SHOULD I DO, THEN?
IT REALLY DID SUM UP THE IMPOTENCE OF THE U.N. FORCES WHO WERE TOLD TO PROTECT, THEN DID NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY OR THE WHEREWITHAL TO PROTECT.
AND IT REALLY ANGERED SO MANY PEOPLE.
AND THEY BLAMED THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IN BOSNIA, OF COURSE.
AS YOU KNOW, THE DUTCH -- WHOLE DUTCH GOVERNMENT HAD TO RESIGN AFTER A 2002 REPORT ON THIS.
WHAT ARE YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT THAT MOMENT TODAY, ABOUT RESPONSIBILITY OF THE WORLD?
YEAH, I THINK IT WAS POLITICAL DECISION THAT THE -- THIS POLITICAL DECISION WAS BLOCKING UNITED NATIONS.
AND THIS IS SOMETHING WHICH WE FEEL HUGE PAIN, WHY IT HAPPENED.
BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, IF WE TALK ABOUT TODAY, UNITED NATIONS ARE STILL NOT FREE.
WE HAVE INSTITUTIONS THAT WE NEED TO PROTECT TO BE FREE FROM POLITICAL INTERESTS.
AND THIS FILM IS NOT -- IT SHOWS HOW COWARDLY DUTCH COMMANDERS BEHAVED, HOW THEY COULD PROTECT PEOPLE BUT THEY DIDN'T.
EVEN IF THEY HAD REALLY VERY LIMITED MEANS.
BUT I HOPE THE FILM WILL INSPIRE PEOPLE TO GIVE MORE INDEPENDENCE TO UNITED NATIONS AND TO ALL INSTITUTIONS WHICH ARE PROTECTING HUMAN RIGHTS.
I THINK ESPECIALLY TODAY IN THIS POLITICAL CONSTELLATION THAT WE HAVE IN THE WORLD, WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF OUR INSTITUTIONS WHO ARE PROTECTING HUMAN BEINGS.
I WANT TO ASK YOU QUICKLY, I MET THE GENERAL SEVERAL TIMES.
I TALKED TO HIM A LOT.
LIKE ALL THAT SIDE, THERE WAS A LOT OF 'FAKE NEWS' BEING PUT AROUND.
THEY TRIED TO TELL THE WORLD THAT THE MUSLIMS, THE BOSNIANS, WERE ACTUALLY SHELLING THEMSELVES AND TRYING TO BRING THE WEST IN TO HELP BY DOING THAT.
THAT WAS CLEARLY NOT TRUE, BUT THEY DID TELL A LOT OF IMPORTANT PEOPLE THAT.
WHAT IS YOUR REFLECTION ON THE POWER TO MANIPULATE AND ESSENTIALLY CREATE FAKE NEWS THAT HAS SUCH AN IMPACT?
YEAH, THESE FAKE NEWS WERE SO PRESENT IN '90s THAT WE LEARNED HOW TO RECOGNIZE THEM.
SO WHEN THE SITUATION IN U.S.
WAS CHANGING WITH FAKE NEWS, WE ALL FROM BOSNIA WERE LIKE, WE RECOGNIZE THIS, IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME SYSTEM OF PROPAGANDA THAT WAS HAPPENING TO US.
AND IT'S STILL GOING ON, BECAUSE THERE ARE FORCES WHO STILL WANT TO KEEP STATUS QUO IN BOSNIA.
FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WAS A CRITIC ABOUT MY FILM SAYING -- WHO INVITED TWO WAR CRIMINALS TO TALK ABOUT THE FILM.
WHAT THEY SAID WAS, YOU KNOW, THIS FILM IS AGAINST ALL SERBIAN PEOPLE AND SAYING ALL SERBIAN PEOPLE COMMITTED GENOCIDE.
WHICH IS NOT TRUE.
GENOCIDE WAS COMMITTED BY THE GENERAL AND OTHERS, AND NOT ALL SERBIAN PEOPLE.
AND THIS IS WHAT WAR CRIMINALS WANT, TO HAVE -- HOLD NATION AS A HOSTAGE.
ME AS A BOSNIAN.
LIVING IN BOSNIA, I DON'T WANT THIS.
I WANT MY SERBIAN FRIENDS AND COUSINS TO BE FREE FROM THIS KIND OF NARRATIVE AND FAKE NEWS AND FAKE INFORMATION.
WE TRIED WITH THIS FILM TO REALLY BE AS ACCURATE WITH FACTS SO PEOPLE CAN GO INTO THE STORY WITH THE MAIN CHARACTER.
IT'S REALLY EFFECTIVE.
IT'S REALLY GREAT.
AND THE BOSNIAN FILM ACADEMY I THINK IS GOING TO ENTER THE FILM AS THEIR ENTRY INTO THE OSCARS FOR NEXT YEAR.
WE WISH YOU GOOD LUCK.
THANK YOU, YASMINE, WELL DONE.
> FINALLY TONIGHT, A DEEP DIVE INTO THE GREAT UNKNOWN.
THIS UNFORGETTABLY FORGETTABLE YEAR HAS MADE A LOT OF US WANT TO ESCAPE INTO NATURE.
WHAT IF YOUR ESCAPE TOOK YOU MORE THAN 100 METERS BELOW SEA LEVEL, WITH NO MASK, NO GOGGLES, AND NO OXYGEN TANK?
WELL, FOR ALENK ARTNIK, IT'S NOT JUST AN ESCAPE, IT IS A DARING SPORT WHERE SHE'S FOUND GREAT SUCCESS.
SHE IS A FOUR-TIME WORLD CHAMPION WHO HOLDS THE WOMEN'S FREE DIVING RECORD.
LAST MONTH SHE SPENT MORE THAN 3:30 UNDERWATER WHILE HOLDING HER BREATH.
SHE HAS SINCE COME UP FOR AIR, AND SHE JOINS US FROM FRANCE.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
HELLO.
GOOD EVENING.
GOOD EVENING.
IT WAS AN INCREDIBLE, INCREDIBLE FEAT.
I MEAN, TELL ME WHAT IT IS LIKE, I GUESS THE NIGHT BEFORE YOU'RE GOING TO DO THIS, ATTEMPT THIS WORLD RECORD.
WERE YOU CALM?
WERE YOU WORRIED?
WHAT HAD TO BE GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND?
WELL, OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, I WAS VERY EXCITED.
AND IT WAS REALLY HARD TO CALM DOWN MY MIND.
SO BASICALLY, I COULDN'T FALL ASLEEP THE WHOLE NIGHT.
THEN THE NEXT MORNING WHEN I KIND OF WOKE UP, I KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE REALLY, REALLY HARD.
SO THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I KNEW ALSO THAT I HAD TO CONCENTRATE, THAT A LACK OF BODY POWER WITH MY MIND -- IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I DID.
WELL, LOOK, WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS AMAZING VIDEO OF YOU, THE RED SEA OFF EGYPT.
IT IS YOU WITH A MONOFIN GOING DOWN THAT LINE.
TELL ME PHYSICALLY WHAT IT FEELS LIKE.
YOUR LUNGS, YOUR HEAD, THE PRESSURE OF TRYING TO GET DOWN THERE THAT DEEP.
YEAH, WELL, THIS IS A REALLY, REALLY DEMANDING DIVE.
YOU HAVE TO KNOW THIS.
I AM TRAINING THE WHOLE YEAR, EVERY DAY, FOR THIS ONE SINGLE DIVE.
SO I NEED TO SPEND A LOT OF HOURS IN THE POOL, IN THE GYM.
I HAVE TO DO A LOT OF SPECIFIC BREATH-HOLD TRAINING IN ORDER TO BE CAPABLE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
MOST OF ALL, I NEED TO BE MENTALLY REALLY STRONG.
THE FOCUS HAS TO BE REALLY, REALLY, REALLY STRONG.
THE ABILITY TO BE PARTICULARLY -- AS YOU MENTIONED, THE PRESSURE IS GETTING STRONGER AND STRONGER.
SO BASICALLY, EVERY 10 METERS, THERE IS AN ADDITIONAL BAR.
SO YOU CAN JUST IMAGINE THE PRESSURE IS VERY STRONG.
SO IT'S REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO BASICALLY SURRENDER TO THIS PRESSURE.
SURRENDER TO THIS PRESSURE.
I CAN'T IMAGINE IT, AND I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
I REALIZE IT'S A TERM, THEN YOU HAVE TO COME UP AGAIN.
SO WHAT DOES SURRENDER MEAN?
WELL, IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW -- FIRST OF ALL, OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE OF THE PRESSURE, THE PHYSICAL PRESSURE, YOU NEED TO SURRENDER.
YOU NEED TO RELAX YOUR BODY.
SO IF YOU PUT YOUR PHYSICAL BODY IN KIND OF LIKE A CRAMP, THEN YOU'RE JUST CREATING EVEN MORE PRESSURE.
THEN IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO EQUALIZE THE PRESSURE.
BECAUSE WE HAVE TO EQUALIZE IN ORDER TO GO DEEP.
SO THIS IS THE FIRST THING.
SECOND THING, SURRENDER MENTALLY.
YOU KNOW, YOU NEED TO KIND OF -- THE SURFACE, THE LIFE ON THE SURFACE, YOU NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.
YOU NEED TO BE COMPLETELY, COMPLETELY IN THE PRESENT MOMENT, COMPLETELY FOCUSED.
AND THAT'S BASICALLY SURRENDERING.
AS YOU SAID, WHEN YOU DO IT, THIS IS NOT GAME OVER BECAUSE YOU NEED TO COME UP ANOTHER 140 METERS.
SO THIS IS IN THIS MOMENT VERY CRUCIAL THAT I DON'T START THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, CELEBRATING, LET'S SAY, THAT I HAVE A WORLD RECORD OR SOMETHING.
I NEED TO KEEP THE FOCUS UNTIL THE VERY END.
BECAUSE THE MOMENT WHEN I COME UP TO THE SURFACE, AND THEN I DO THIS, AFTER THAT I CAN CELEBRATE.
IT IS EXTRAORDINARY.
AND WE HAVE TO KEEP SAYING YOU HOLD THE WOMAN'S WORLD RECORD FOR THIS.
AND IT'S INCREDIBLE.
YOU, THOUGH, DIDN'T GET TO IT UNTIL YOU WERE ABOUT 30.
WHAT MADE YOU DO IT?
WHAT WAS GOING ON IN YOUR LIFE?
WHAT DID FREE DIVING OFFER YOU?
YEAH, WELL, MAYBE BECAUSE OF MY AGE, BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, IN THAT PERIOD OF MY LIFE, I WAS REALLY UNHAPPY.
I COULDN'T FIND ANYTHING THAT I COULD REALLY ENJOY.
I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT MY TALENT WAS.
SO ONE DAY I WAS OFFERED THIS TRAINING IN THE POOL.
AFTER THE FIRST ATTEMPT, AFTER THE FIRST UNDERWATER SWIM, I KNEW THAT WAS IT.
I JUST -- I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW FAR IT WOULD GO, BUT I JUST KNEW, YES, THIS IS IT.
THIS IS ME.
I FELT LIKE I COULD FINALLY SPEAK, I COULD FINALLY COMMUNICATE.
EVEN THOUGH IT WAS JUST SWIMMING UNDERWATER.
AND IT WAS SO STRONG THAT, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T -- I NEVER LET IT GO.
FROM THAT MOMENT ON, KEEP ON HOLDING AND BUILDING.
THAT MEANS I WAS TRAINING MORE TO THE POINT WHEN I WAS LIKE 35, THEN I DECIDED TO BE A PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE, AND I'M STILL ON THIS PATH.
ALENKA, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.
I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
I WISH WE COULD TALK MORE, BECAUSE IT'S AN EXCEPTIONAL EXPERIENCE THAT YOU'VE HAD.
CONGRATULATIONS.
AND TAKING A DEEP BREATH NOW, THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
YOU CAN TOLL ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY' ON PBS.
JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.