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> HELLO.
WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE PROGRAM.
WE MUST ACT WITH HONOR AND DUTY AND IN THE INTEREST OF OUR NATION.
THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE WRAPS UP AND ALL EYES TURN TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.
WE TALK TO TWO FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTORS ABOUT WHERE CRIMINAL REFERRALS COULD GO FROM HERE.
> THEN --
LIONEL MESSI AND HIS ARGENTINA TEAM HEAD BACK HOME FROM QATAR AFTER A WORLD CUP WIN FOR THE AGES.
ESPN SENIOR WRITER MARK OGDEN JOINS MY FOR A REVIEW OF A CONTROVERSIAL TOURNAMENT.
> PLUS --
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE JUST HOW EXTRAORDINARILY QUICKLY WE ARE PUSHING THE FRONTIER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY.
'THE ATLANTIC' WRITER DEREK THOMPSON TALKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE BIGGEST TECH BREAKTHROUGHS OF 2022.
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AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.
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> AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE AM.
I'M MICHAEL HOLMES IN ATLANTA.
AFTER 17 MONTHS, MORE THAN 1,000 INTERVIEWS, AND NINE PUBLIC HEARINGS, THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE MAKES ITS CLOSING ARGUMENT TODAY.
AND IT IS EXPECTED TO URGE THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO PURSUE CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, DONALD TRUMP.
TO CAST A VOTE IN THE UNITED STATES IS AN ACT OF FAITH AND HOPE.
WHEN WE DROP THAT BALLOT IN THE BALLOT BOX WE EXPECT THE PEOPLE NAMED ON THE BALLOT ARE GOING TO UPHOLD THEIR END OF THE DEAL.
THE WINNER SWEARS AN OATH AND UPHOLDS IT.
THOSE WHO COME UP SHORT ACCEPT THE RESULTS AND ABIDE BY THE RULE OF LAW.
THAT FAITH IN OUR SYSTEM IS THE FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.
IF THE FAITH IS BROKEN, SO IS OUR DEMOCRACY.
DONALD TRUMP BROKE THAT FAITH.
HE LOST THE 2020 ELECTION AND KNEW IT, BUT HE CHOSE TO TRY TO STAY IN OFFICE THROUGH A MULTIPART SCHEME TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS AND BLOCK THE TRANSFER OF POWER.
IN THE END, HE SUMMONED THE MOB TO WASHINGTON AND KNOWINGLY THEY WERE ARMED AND ANGRY, POINTED THEM TO THE CAPITOL AND TOLD THEM TO FIGHT LIKE HELL.
THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS.
ALTHOUGH THE REFERRALS DO NOT HOLD ANY LEGAL WEIGHT, IT IS AN HISTORIC MOMENT ON CAPITOL HILL AS THE SELECT COMMITTEE PRESSES TO GET ITS FINDINGS ON THE RECORD BEFORE THIS CONGRESS ENDS AND HOUSE REPUBLICANS TAKE POWER IN JANUARY.
HERE IS A LOOK BACK AT SOME OF THE PUBLIC TESTIMONY WE HEARD THIS YEAR.
NOT ONLY DID PRESIDENT TRUMP REFUSE TO TELL THE MOB TO LEAVE THE CAPITOL, HE PLACED NO CALL TO ANY ELEMENT OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT TO INSTRUCT THAT THE CAPITOL BE DEFENDED.
WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE TO LEAVE?
BASICALLY WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP PUT HIS TWEET OUT.
AFTER OUR LAST HEARING, PRESIDENT TRUMP TRIED TO CALL A WITNESS IN OUR INVESTIGATION.
THE PRESIDENT REACHED UP TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE VEHICLE TO GRAB AT THE STEERING WHEEL.
MR. ENGLE GRABBED HIS ARM, SAID, SIR, YOU NEED TO TAKE YOUR HAND OFF THE STEERING WHEEL.
WE'RE GOING BACK TO THE WEST WING.
WE ARE NOT GOING TO THE CAPITOL.
MR. TRUMP THEN USED HIS FREE HAND TO LUNGE TOWARDS BOBBY ENGLE.
WHAT I SAW WAS JUST A WAR SCENE.
IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE I HAD SEEN OUT OF THE MOVIES.
I COULDN'T BELIEVE MY EYES.
AFFECTED MY LIFE IN A MAJOR WAY.
IN EVERY WAY.
ALL BECAUSE OF LIES.
I THOUGHT THAT THE TWEET ABOUT THE VICE PRESIDENT WAS THE LAST THING THAT WAS NEEDED IN THAT MOMENT.
IT WAS ESSENTIALLY HIM GIVING THE GREEN LIGHT TO THESE PEOPLE, TELLING THEM THAT WHAT THEY WERE DOING AT THE STEPS OF THE CAPITOL AND ENTERING THE CAPITOL WAS OKAY, THAT THEY WERE JUSTIFIED IN THEIR ANGER, AND HE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DOING THAT.
HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN TELLING THESE PEOPLE TO GO HOME AND TO LEAVE.
A SUMMARY OF THE COMMITTEE'S FINDINGS WILL BE RELEASED TODAY.
THE FINAL REPORT WILL COME OUT ON WEDNESDAY.
JIM WALDEN IS FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SO, TOO RON PHILIPKOWSKI, HAS FOR YEARS MONITORED RIGHT-WING EXTREMISM, TRACKING DEFENDANTS FROM FOOT SOLDIERS TO LEADERS.
WELCOME.
WE WELCOME BOTH OF YOU TO THE PROGRAM.
THANKS FOR MAKING THE TIME.
RON, I'LL START WITH YOU.
SO IT'S A COMMITTEE OF SEVEN DEMOCRATS, TWO REPUBLICANS.
AS WE SAID, MORE THAN 1,000 WITNESSES, A DOZEN HEARINGS AND MILLIONS OF DOCUMENTS AS IT'S BEEN WORKING TO CREATE A COMPREHENSIVE RECORD OF THE INSURRECTION AS IT HAPPENED.
AS YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S COME OUT, HAVE THEY, THE COMMITTEE, DONE WHAT THEY SET OUT TO DO?
WELL, I THINK FOR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE FOLLOWED THIS SINCE REALLY DECEMBER OF 2020, BEFORE IT HAPPENED, THEY REALLY FILLED IN A LOT OF THE GAPS FOR US IN OUR KNOWLEDGE.
THOSE OF US WHO TRACK THESE INDIVIDUALS, THERE IS BASICALLY FIVE DIFFERENT GROUPS OF INDIVIDUALS THAT WERE INVOLVED IN JANUARY 6th.
ONE IS THE FOOT SOLDIERS THAT YOU MENTIONED.
GROUP TWO WOULD BE THE ORGANIZERS AND PLANNERS WHO BROUGHT THEM THERE AND PERSUADED THEM TO GO.
THOSE ARE THE FIRST TWO GROUPS.
BUT THE LAST THREE GROUPS ARE WHAT THE COMMITTEE IS REALLY FOCUSED ON.
THE PEOPLE INSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE, THE LAWYERS AND THE PEOPLE AROUND THE LAWYERS LIKE MICHAEL FLYNN, SIDNEY POWELL, PATRICK BURN, OTHER PEOPLE LIKE THAT, JOHN EASTMAN.
AND THEN THE THIRD GROUP WOULD BE THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS BECAUSE WE REALLY DIDN'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES AS FAR AS COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN THE WHITE HOUSE AND MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.
SO I THINK THE COMMITTEE HAS DONE A REALLY GOOD JOB FOCUSING ON THOSE THREE GROUPS, WHICH IS GOING TO BE THE SUBJECT OF, HOPEFULLY, CRIMINAL REFERRALS.
JIM, WE TALKED ABOUT THE LEGAL WEIGHT.
WHAT LEGAL WEIGHT WILL CRIMINAL REFERRALS HAVE?
IT'S UP TO THE DOJ AND SPECIAL COUNSEL JACK SMITH, OF COURSE.
SO IN A SENSE, PROCESS-WAYS, WHAT HAPPENS WITH ANY RECOMMENDATIONS?
THE RECOMMENDATION WILL GO A NUMBER OF PLACES.
WITH RESPECT TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THAT INVESTIGATION IS WELL UNDERWAY.
BUT CONGRESS HAS HAD THE BENEFIT OF TIME WHERE DOJ HAS THE BENEFIT OF TOOLS THAT CONGRESS DIDN'T HAVE.
SO THE TWO PARTS ARE SIGNIFICANT, ARE THE SYMBOLIC WEIGHT OF A REFERRAL FROM CONGRESS SAYING EFFECTIVELY NO PERSON IS ABOVE THE LAW, BUT THE SECOND PART THAT WILL BE HELPFUL TO DOJ IS TO GET A BROADER UNDERSTANDING AND A MORE GRANULAR UNDERSTANDING OF ALL OF THE EVIDENCE THAT UNDERLIES THE REFERRAL.
AND THAT, AS SOON AS IT GOES TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND JACK SMITH, WHO IS THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, A VERY DOGGED BUT VERY FAIR AND VERY AGGRESSIVE PROSECUTOR WHO IS ALREADY IN CONTROL OF HIS TEAM, THEY WILL BE DRILLING INTO THE REPORT FOR ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE THAT THEY HAVE NOT YET FOUND.
YEAH.
I GUESS IT'S TWO SEPARATE TRACKS.
RECOMMENDATIONS ARE ONE THING.
CHARGES, TRIAL, CONVICTIONS, THEY ARE OTHER THINGS.
JIM, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE LEVEL OF LEGAL JEOPARDY RIGHT NOW FOR THE PRESIDENT AND THOSE AROUND HIM?
I DIVIDE THAT INTO TWO PARTS.
ONE IS POLITICAL JEOPARDY AND ONE IS LEGAL JEOPARDY.
FROM THE LEGAL JEOPARDY PERSPECTIVE, IT'S UNCLEAR RIGHT NOW WHETHER JACK SMITH AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WILL TAKE ALL OF THE VARIOUS STRANDS OF CRIMINALITY AND PACKAGE IT INTO ONE LARGE CONSPIRACY FOCUSING NOT JUST ON JANUARY 6th, BUT ALL OF THE OTHER COLLATERAL PIECES OF ALLEGED CRIMINALITY THAT BOTH THE COMMITTEE AND OTHER PARTS OF DOJ HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD ON FOR MANY MONTHS.
BUT HE ALSO FACES A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION IN GEORGIA.
HE FACES A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION IN NEW YORK.
HE FACES A VERY SERIOUS CIVIL INVESTIGATION IN NEW YORK.
SO FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE, IT'S GOING TO BE WEEKS AND WEEKS OF BAD NEWS FOR DONALD TRUMP.
GO AHEAD.
NO, FINISH YOUR THOUGHT.
IN THE REAL WAY, THE REAL SIGNIFICANCE RIGHT NOW OF THE COMMITTEE'S WORK IS IN A REAL WAY THEY'VE ALREADY CHANGED THE DIALOGUE.
I MEAN, DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS ARE UNDER ATTACK IN THE UNITED STATES AND ACROSS THE WORLD.
CERTAINLY DONALD TRUMP HAS CERTAINLY CHALLENGED DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES.
GUESS WHAT?
DEMOCRACY IS WINNING.
WE CAN TELL FROM THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS FROM A POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE DONALD TRUMP'S TIME MAY VERY WELL BE OVER.
RON, TO YOU NOW.
YOU STARTED YOUR INVESTIGATION OF WHAT WAS GOING ON A VERY LONG TIME AGO.
YOU WERE SBRIERD BY THE SELECT COMMITTEE IN 2020.
WHAT WAS YOUR MESSAGE TO THEM?
WELL, WHAT I HAD -- WHAT I DID IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF JANUARY 6th WAS FOR THE FIRST COUPLE OF MONTHS HELPED IDENTIFY THE PEOPLE IN THE CROWD, THE PEOPLE THAT WENT INTO THE CAPITOL THROUGH VARIOUS DIFFERENT MEANS, HELPING OTHERS DO THAT.
AND THEN I SHIFTED FOCUS BECAUSE I NOTICED THAT A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WE TALKED ABOUT LIKE MICHAEL FLYNN, JOHN EASTMAN, JEFFREY CLARK AND MANY -- CHRIS MILLER, MANY OF THE PLAYERS INSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE AT THE HIGHER LEVELS, SIDNEY POWELL WOULD BE ANOTHER ONE, WERE GOING ON A LOT OF PODCASTS, A LOT OF RIGHT-WING PODCASTS AND STARTING TO DO INTERVIEWS IN MARCH AND APRIL WHICH SOMEWHAT SURPRISED ME BECAUSE I WAS SURPRISED THAT THEY WERE DOING SO MUCH TALKING.
BUT MAYBE THEY FELT LIKE SINCE THESE WERE SMALL PLATFORMS WITH FRIENDLY INTERVIEWERS, MAYBE THEY FELT THEY WERE SAFE.
A LOT OF THEM STARTED TALKING A LOT ABOUT JANUARY 6th AND THEIR ROLE AND THEIR INVOLVEMENT.
MANY GIVING INCONSISTENT ANSWERS.
SO I STARTED RECORDING A LOT OF THESE THINGS AND A LOT OF THESE INTERVIEWS AND WHEN I MET WITH THE COMMITTEE THAT'S MOSTLY WHAT I DID, IS I OUTLINED SOME OF THE INTERVIEWS THAT I HAD VIDEO OF, MANY OF WHICH NOBODY HAD EVER SEEN, NO PRESS HAD EVER REPORTED ON, AND I TURNED OVER ABOUT 100 OR SO OF THOSE INTERVIEWS TO THE COMMITTEE.
BACK TO YOU, JIM.
THE COMMITTEE RECOMMENDATIONS, DO THEY IN ANY WAY PUT THE DOJ IN A DIFFICULT POSITION IN LOOKING THAK THEIR ACTIONS, IF THEY PURSUED, COULD BE SEEN AS POLITICAL.
I MEAN, RATHER THAN THE DOJ COMING TO THE CONCLUSION WITHOUT REFERRALS FROM POLITICIANS?
I DON'T THINK REALLY THINK THAT CONGRESS IS TRYING TO PUT THE DOJ IN A BOX.
CONGRESS IS TRYING TO FULFILL CENTRAL TENET OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, WHICH IS CHECKS AND BALANCES.
A LOT OF OUR CONSTITUTION IS ABOUT CHECKS AND BALANCES, AND ONE OF THOSE IMPORTANT CHECKS, WHETHER IT IS INVESTIGATIONS OF BILL CLINTON OR INVESTIGATIONS OF RICHARD NIXON ARE TO MAKE SURE THAT CONGRESS HOLDS THE PRESIDENT OR FORMER PRESIDENT ACCOUNTABLE.
SO I THINK THAT ONE POSSIBLE OUTCOME, I DON'T THINK IT'S A LIKELY OUTCOME, BUT A POSSIBLE OUTCOME IS THAT JACK SMITH DETERMINES THAT THERE SUSPECT SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE OR THAT THERE IS COMPELLING EVIDENCE OF, FOR EXAMPLE, TRUMP GETTING ADVICE FROM HIS LAWYERS, WHICH COULD BE A DEFENSE TO CERTAIN CHARGES.
SO I WOULDN'T SAY THAT CONGRESS IS TRYING TO PUT DOJ IN A BOX.
I THINK THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO WHAT THEY CAN TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY SHOUT THROUGH THE BACKGROUND NOISE AND HELP AMERICANS UNDERSTAND THE QUANTITY AND QUALITY OF EVIDENCE OF CRIMINALITY THERE FROM THE PAST ADMINISTRATION.
RON, YOU SHARED SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS WITH THE COMMITTEE AS WELL FROM THE RUN-UP TO THE INSURRECTION.
WE HAVE GOT SOME OF THOSE.
WE WILL PUT THEM ON THE SCREEN.
THE VITRIOL OOZES.
WE WILL LET PEOPLE READ THEM THERE.
JANUARY 6th, OF COURSE, WASN'T A ONE-OFF EVENT.
IT WAS A CATALYST IN MANY WAYS FOR EXTREMISM AND YOU ARGUED THAT EXTREMISM HAS NOT ABATED, FAR FROM IT.
IT'S ALIVE AND WELL.
WHAT ARE YOU SEEING NOW?
HAVE THE HUNDREDS OF PROSECUTIONS OF THE FOOT SOLDIERS, IF YOU LIKE, SINCE JANUARY 6th DONE ANYTHING TO DETER RADICALIZATION OF TRUMP SUPPORTERS?
NO.
I DON'T THINK SO.
ONE THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE REALLY SEEN IS AN ATTEMPT BY PEOPLE IN THE RIGHT WING TO REWRITE THE HISTORY OF JANUARY 6th.
AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT A LOT OF THE PEOPLE THAT WERE INVOLVED HAVE BEEN DOING.
TO TRY AND COVER UP WHAT REALLY HAPPENED, TO TRY TO BLAME THE CAPITOL POLICE, CLAIM THAT THERE WERE PLANTS IN THE CROWD, THAT WERE FBI AGENTS OR FBI INFORMANTS THAT INSTIGATED THE WHOLE THING.
THERE HAVE BEEN BOOKS WRITTEN ABOUT IT, DOCUMENTARIES MADE.
SO THERE IS AN ENTIRE ALTERNATE HISTORY THAT'S BEING PRESENTED BY RIGHT WING AND RIGHT-WING MEDIA TO WHAT HAPPENED, WHICH IS JUST COMPLETELY DIVORCED FROM REALITY.
BUT THE REALITY IS, MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE IT.
AND THE FORMER PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT TRUMP, HAS EMBRACED THESE DIFFERENT CONSPIRACIES AND THEORIES AND PUT IT OUT THERE AS WELL.
WHEN IT COMES TO THE DOJ, I'LL PUT TO YOU, RON, AGAIN, THEY HAVE A BATTLE, THE MESSAGING HAS BEEN FROM THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, WHICH HAS FOUGHT THIS COMMITTEE EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.
LET'S LISTEN TO FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.
THIS SELECT COMMITTEE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING HAS REPRESENTED KIND OF A PARTISAN TANK, I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY SO FEW AMERICANS ARE PAYING MUCH ATTENTION TO WHAT HAPPENS TODAY OR TO THE RESULTS OR RECOMMENDATIONS OF THIS COMMITTEE.
AND TO THAT POINT, RON, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN REPUBLICANS TAKE CONTROL OF THE HOUSE NEXT MONTH?
HOW MUCH CAN THEY EFFECTIVELY UNDO?
WELL, MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN SAID SHE IS GOING TO RUN A COMMITTEE OR A SUBCOMMITTEE ON JANUARY 6th TO GET TO THE REAL TRUTH OF WHAT HAPPENED.
AND SUPPOSEDLY HER FOCUS IS GOING TO BE ON NANCY PELOSI AND TRYING TO BLAME WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th ON NANCY PELOSI.
THE THEME WOULD BE THIS CANARD THAT TRUMP SUPPOSEDLY OFFERED TO SEND IN NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS WHEN THIS WAS GOING DOWN OVER BEFORE IT EVEN HAPPENED AND THAT WAS TURNED DOWN BY NANCY PELOSI.
NOW, THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT TO SUPPOSEDLY INVESTIGATE.
SO IT'S ABOUT DEFLECTION.
IT'S ABOUT TURNING THE PUBLIC'S ATTENTION AWAY FROM WHAT REALLY HAPPENED INTO THESE DIFFERENT EXCUSES.
INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING IN WRITING THAT SHOWS THAT TRUMP OFFERED TO SEND NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS.
IT'S SUPPOSEDLY WAS A PHONE CALL, AGAIN A PHONE CALL.
AND THE WITNESS TO THAT PHONE CALL IS SUPPOSEDLY KASH PATEL, WHO IS ALSO THE WITNESS TO HIM VERBALLY DECLASSIFYING DOCUMENTS.
SO KASH PATEL APPEARS TO BE A HANDY WITNESS WHEREVER CORROBORATION OF A PHONE CALL NEEDS TO BE MADE.
JIM, DOES TRUMP BEING A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, A DECLARED CANDIDATE, COMPLICATE A POTENTIAL PROSECUTION TRACK, ESPECIALLY IF THE CASE, IF THERE IS ONE, DRAGS OUT CLOSER TO THE 2024 ELECTION?
POTENTIALLY, BUT I DON'T PREDICT THAT WILL HAPPEN.
MERRICK GARLAND, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR THE UNITED STATES, WAS VERY SMART TO BRING IN A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR LIKE JACK SMITH WHO UNDERSTANDS THIS MOMENT IN TIME AND THE IMPORTANCE TO COMB THROUGH THE EVIDENCE THOROUGHLY BUT QUICKLY AND TRY TO MAKE DECISIONS.
AND LISTEN.
AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE CAN SAY WHAT WE WANT ABOUT THE MESSAGING FROM THE OTHER SIDE, BUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HEARD IT IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.
ELECTION DENIERS LOST ACROSS THE BOARD.
AND IF MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE AND THE OTHER FAR-RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TRY TO GO DOWN THAT ROAD, THEY ARE BEING TONE DEAF TO WHAT THE COUNTRY IS SAYING, WHICH IS WE WANT EXTREMIST REPUBLICANS AND EXTREMIST DEMOCRATS OUT OF THE PICTURE.
WE WANT PEOPLE REACHING ACROSS THE AISLE AND COMING UP WITH SOLUTIONS FOR AMERICAN PEOPLE.
WE DON'T WANT MORE OF THIS POLITICAL BLOOD SPORT.
AND I THINK THAT IS REALLY THE MESSAGE OF THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.
I'D LIKE TO GET A COUPLE MORE IN, JIM, TEN YEARS FROM NOW HOW DO YOU THINK THIS COMMITTEE AND ITS WORK WILL BE VIEWED?
IS IT LIKELY TO BE DEFINITIVE OR NOT?
OR COULD AN ALTERNATE NARRATIVE TAKE HOLD, A VERSION OF HISTORY THAT WHITE WASHES JANUARY 6th?
YOU KNOW THE EXPRESSION THAT HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE WINNERS.
HONESTLY, HERE I THINK THE WINNERS HAVE ALREADY BEEN THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS THEMSELVES.
THEY STOOD UP TO A LOT OF POLITICAL PRESSURE AND WHAT DID THEY DO?
SUBPOENAED HUNDREDS OF WITNESSES, GOT MILLIONS OF DOCUMENTS, THEY ARE PUTTING TOGETHER A COMPREHENSIVE REPORT.
IT IS ALREADY HAVING AN AFFECT ON THE POLITICAL DYNAMIC WITHIN THE UNITED STATES.
AS MORE AND MORE EVIDENCE COMES OUT, AND AS I BELIEVE ONE OR MORE OF THESE INVESTIGATIONS RESULTS IN CHARGES AGAINST THE FORMER PRESIDENT, THE CENTER PEOPLE, THE REASONABLE PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE THAT PUT DEMOCRACY OVER THEIR PARTY ARE ULTIMATELY GOING TO WIN AND I THINK THAT THIS WAS A SHINING EXAMPLE OF EXACTLY HOW AMERICAN CHECKS AND BALANCES WORK AND AS PEOPLE AROUND THE GLOBE AND DEMOCRACIES ARE UNDER ATTACK, I HOPE THIS GIVES THEM CONFIDENCE THAT THE UNITED STATES REMAINS THE SHINING CITY ON THE HILL.
RON, TO YOU, WHAT HAS THIS WHOLE AFFAIR, I MEAN, EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED AFTER THE 2020 ELECTION AND BEFORE, FOR THAT MATTER, WHAT HAS IT ALL SHOWN ABOUT THE FRAGILITY OF DEMOCRACY IN THIS COUNTRY AND DO YOU THINK AT LEAST SOME OF THE DAMAGE DONE IS GOING TO BE PERMANENT?
I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S GOING TO BE PERMANENT.
I THINK WE DODGED A BULLET WITH A LOT OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE RACES WHO ALL LOST AS WAS JUST MENTIONED.
ALL OF THE ELECTION DENIER CANDIDATES FOR SECRETARY OF STATE RACES LOST AND I THINK THAT COULD HAVE BEEN CATASTROPHIC IF MANY OF THEM HAD WON.
BUT I TELL YOU, THE THING I'M PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TO RIGHT NOW IS, IF THERE IS AN ARREST OF DONALD TRUMP, HE IS ALREADY LAYING THE GROUND WITH WORK FOR GETTING HIS -- WHAT THE REACTION OF THE RIGHT IN THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO BE TO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
AND HE IS ALREADY PREPPING THE FIELD SAYING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO STAND FOR IT, THEY ARE GOING TO RISE UP, THEY ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING.
AND SO REALLY IF THERE IS ONE THING THAT MOST CONCERNS ME GOING INTO 2023, IT WOULD BE THAT.
IT'S NOT REALLY THE ARREST OF DONALD TRUMP.
IT'S WHAT WILL BE THE REACTION FROM THE POLITICAL RIGHT TO THAT ARREST.
AND THAT'S REALLY THE MAIN THING THAT CONCERNS ME.
YEAH.
RON FILIPKOWSKI, JIM WALDEN, APPRECIATE YOU TAKING THE TIME.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
> IT IS ALREADY DESCRIBED AS THE BEST WORLD CUP FINAL EVER.
IF YOU WATCHED, YOU WOULD AGREE.
IT SPARJD AN ALL NIGHT PARTY ON THE STREETS OF BUENAS ARIES AS PEOPLE POURED OUT TO CELEBRATE ARGENTINA'S WORLD CUP WIN, THE FIRST IN MORE THAN 30 YEARS FOR THAT COUNTRY.
LEADING FRANCE ON PENALTIES AFTER A DRAMATIC FINAL FINISH 3-3 AFTER EXTRA TIME.
IN THE PROCESS, LIONEL MESSI SECURING HIS PLACE AS ONE THE SPORT'S GREATEST EVER PLAYERS.
THE AMIR OF QATAR SAYS THE COUNTRY DELIVERED ON ITS PROMISE TO HOLD AN EXCEPTIONAL WORLD CUP.
TO MANY IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL SPORTING EVENTS IN HISTORY.
DON RIDDELL REPORTS.
IT WAS 12 YEARS IN THE MAKING.
ARGUABLY, THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL WORLD CUP OF ALL TIME.
ALLEGATIONS OF CORRUPTION AND CRITICISM OF QATAR'S CIVIL AND HUMAN RIGHTS RECORDS DOMINATED THE BUILD UP.
ON THE EVE OF THE STURMT THE FIFA PRESIDENT DEFLECTED ALL OF THE CRITICISM.
YOU WANT TO CRITICIZE SOMEONE, HERE I AM.
CRUCIFY ME.
I AM HERE FOR THAT.
DON'T CRITICIZE QATAR, THE PLAYERS.
Reporter: AND WHEN THE ACTION KICKED OFF, IT WAS RELENTLESS.
THE HOST TEAM QATAR QUICKLY SLIPPED OUT OF VIEW BUT MANY OF THE UNDERDOGS HAD THEIR DAY.
SAUDI ARABIA SENSATIONAL WIN AGAINST ARGENTINA SET THE TONE FOR A STURMT OF UPSETS.
JAPAN STUNNED GERMANY THE NEXT DAY.
IN THE BACKGROUND, THE CONTROVERSY LINGERED.
PROTESTS ABOUT QATAR'S DOMESTIC POLICIES WERE BRIEF BUT IMPACTFUL SAYING THAT THEY WERE SILENCED, GERMANY FOUND THEIR VOICES AND IN REFUSING TO SING, IRAN SIGNALED THEIR EMPATHY FOR THE BLOODY UPRISING BACK HOME.
FOR SOME IT WAS A PAINFUL WORLD CUP.
CHRISTIAN PULISIC'S INJURY WAS ENOUGH TO MAKE EVERYBODY'S EYES WATER.
YOU CALLED IT, I BELIEVE, THE PELVIC CONTUSION HEARD AROUND THE WORLD?
FELT AROUND THE WORLD.
OH, FELT AROUND THE BOULEVARD.
.
Reporter: THE REAL PAIN WAS THE LOSS OF TWO MIGRANT WORKERS WHO DIED AS A RESULT OF WORKPLACE ACCIDENTS DURING THE TOURNAMENT AND THE SUDDEN PASSING OF TWO MEDIA MEMBERS COVERING THE ACTION.
THE QATAR PHOTOJOURNALIST AND THE CELEBRATED AMERICAN SPORTS WRITER GRANT WAHL.
ON THE FIELD HISTORY WAS MADE.
STEPHANIE LED THE FIRST ALL-FEMALE REFEREEING CREW AT A MEN'S WORLD CUP AND THE GROUP STAGE KEPT THE FANS ON THE EDGE OF THEIR SEATS WHILE THE DRAMA PUT NEWS ANCHORS OUT OF THEIR MINDS.
I SAW YOU LAST HOUR.
I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO HESITATION IN SAYING TO YOU THIS IS YOURS, MATE.
THIS HEAP OF MESS IS YOURS.
TRY TO INTERPRET OR MAKE --
I AM NOT SURE I WANT TO -- IT'S SO COMPLICATED.
SUAREZ ASKED ME EARLIER, THIS HAPPENS, THIS HAPPENS, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
I WAS LIKE, I NEED TO CONSULT MY NOTES.
I DON'T KNOW.
Reporter: A NEW WORLD ORDER EMERGED.
THIS WAS ASIA'S MOST SUCCESSFUL TOURNAMENT IN THE SAME TOO, FOR AFRICA.
MOROCCO THE STANDARD BEARERS FOR A CONTINENT AND THE ARAB PEOPLE.
BLAZED TRAIL TO THE SEMIFINALS MAKING HEROES OF THEMSELVES AND STARS OF THEIR MOTHERS.
WE ARE HOME.
THIS IS A GOOD TIME FOR EVERYBODY FROM QATAR, FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, THE ARAB COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE WORLD.
THEY LOVE IT.
THEY ARE HAVING A DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE AND THEY ARE ENJOYING THEIR TIME.
Reporter: BUT IN THE END WE GOT THE FINAL THAT MANY WERE EXPECTING.
FRANCE AGAINST ARGENTINA WAS AN INSTANT CLASSIC.
KYLIAN MBAPPE SCORED A HAT-TRICK BUT WAS HEARTBROKEN IN A PENALTY SHOOTOUT.
LIONEL MESSI HAS NOW WON THE ONLY TROPHY TO HAVE ELUDED HIM, ELEVATING HIM TO THE PANTHEON OF KBRAETS AND PLACING HIM ALONGSIDE DIEGO MARADONA.
FIFA SAY THIS HAS BEEN THE BEST EVER WORLD CUP.
HISTORY WILL BE THE JUDGE.
BUT FOR SO MANY DIFFERENT REASONS, IT HAS CERTAINLY BEEN ONE OF THE MOST MEMORABLE.
THANKS TO DON RIDDELL FOR THAT GREAT REPORTING THROUGHOUT THE CUP.
LET'S DIG INTO ALL OF THIS WITH MARK OGDEN, A SENIOR WRITER AT ESPN WHO IS JUST BACK FROM QATAR.
DID SOME OF HIS OWN GREAT REPORTING.
LET'S TALK FOOTBALL FIRST.
I MEAN, I WATCHED IT.
I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DID.
IT WAS A FINAL FOR THE AGES.
AND AFTER IT YOU TWEETED THIS.
I JUST WANT TO QUOTE IT.
BEST WORLD CUP FINAL EVER.
PROBABLY THE BEST FINAL EVER.
AND FOR LIONEL MESSI THE PERFECT ENDING.
SO HOW MUCH DID IT MEAN NOT JUST FOR ARGENTINA, BUT TO FOOTBALL TO HAVE A FINAL LIKE THAT AND SHOWCASE THE SPORT THE WAY IT DID?
IT MEANT EVERYTHING FOR ARGENTINA.
OBVIOUSLY, A THIRD WORLD CUP.
THEY HAVEN'T WON SINCE 1986.
BRAZIL WON FIVE FOR ARGENTINA IT WAS MASSIVE.
FOR MESSI, IT WAS HUGE.
I THINK FOR FOOTBALL, I THINK WHEN YOU GET TO A FINAL, THEY ARE USUALLY QUITE DOUR AFFAIRS.
BOTH TEAMS HAVE SO MUCH PRESSURE.
IT BECOMES A DEFENSIVE GAME.
THIS WAS JUST -- IT WAS A FREE FOR ALL AND IT WAS A FANTASTIC GAME.
YOU KNOW, IT REALLY DREW PEOPLE IN THAT WEREN'T FOOTBALL FANS.
THE WORLD CUP REACHES AUDIENCES THAT NORMAL FOOTBALL WANT REACH.
THE FACT IT WAS SUCH A GREAT GAME WITH LIONEL MESSI, KYLIAN MBAPPE, THE NEXT STAR, THE NEXT GENERATION STAR, HAD EVERYTHING.
AT THE END THE SHOOTOUT, MESSI COULD HAVE WON WITH A SHOT THAT WAS SAVED.
IT WAS ONE THE BEST GAMES I THINK ANYBODY'S EVER SEEN.
TO HAPPEN IN A WORLD CUP FINAL SHOWED YOU HOW BIG THE GAME WAS.
IT WAS A HUGE, HUGE EVENT FOR THE GAME ITSELF, FOOTBALL ITSELF, A MASSIVE WIN.
ABSOLUTELY.
FRANCE SCORING THOSE TWO GOALS I THINK WAS IN TWO MINUTES WAS JUST A THRILLING THING TO WATCH.
THE FINAL AS YOU POINT OUT WAS DOMINATED BY MBAPPE AND MESSI, TWO STARS OF QATARI OWNED PSG.
FOOTBALL DID THE TALKING OF COURSE.
DID THE TOURNAMENT BURNISH OR TARNISH THE REPUTATION OF FIFA IN PARTICULAR ITS PRESIDENT GIANNI INFANTINO, WHO TENDSED TO PUT HIS FOOT IN A LOT.
IT TARNISHED HIM AS WELL.
THE KAY BEFORE THE TOURNAMENT STARTED HE GAVE THIS STRANGE 90-MINUTE PRESS CONFERENCE WHERE HE SPOKE ABOUT HE WAS GAY, HE WAS AN ARAB, HE WAS EVERYTHING APART FROM HIMSELF.
HE WAS TRYING TO DEFLECT THE FOCUS FROM QATAR AND THE SCRUTINY THAT THE COUNTRY HAS HAD OVER THE LAST 12 YEARS.
HAD THEY WON THE WORLD CUP, BUILT THE STADIUMS FOR THE WORLD CUP, TREATING MIGRANT WORKERS.
FIFA IN EVERY WORLD CUP I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED, FIFA HAS A DAILY BRIEFING WHERE THEY DISCUSS WHAT IS HAPPENING, OPEN TO QUESTIONS TO FIND OUT -- UNDER SCRUTINY.
NOT ONCE IN QATAR WERE THEY TAKING QUESTIONS.
I WAS AT A GAME SERBIA VERSUS SWITZERLAND WHERE DURING THE GAME THE PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT SYSTEM THEY TOLD FANS TO STOP MAKING DISCRIMINATORY CHANTS AND GESTURES.
WE WANTED TO KNOW WHAT WERE THE GESTURES, WHAT ARE THE CHANTS, WHAT WAS DOING IT.
FIFA DIDN'T RESPOND TO QUESTIONS.
THAT WAS TWO WEEKS AGO.
I THINK FIFA HAVE BEEN RUNNING SCARED IN THE WORLD CUP AND INFANTINO ACTED LIKE AN EMPEROR.
HE SITS ON A THRONE AND HIS BEHAVIOR WHERE HE WAS ALMOST TRYING NOT TO GIVE THE TROPHY TO MESSI WITHOUT PUTTING HIS ARM AROUND MESSI AND MAKING IT ABOUT HIM AS MUCH AS ANYBODY ELSE, IT WAS THE UGLY SIDE OF FIFA WHERE IT'S BECOME THIS MONEY CELEBRITY DRIVEN ORGANIZATION WHICH HAS BEGOTTEN THE ROOT OF FOOTBALLS.
THE FANS IN QATAR WERE AMAZING.
THE ARGENTINA FANS, THE MOROCCO FANS, THETU KNEESIANS, AMAZING FANS.
I DON'T THINK INPANTENE OWE SET FOOT -- SO FOR ME FIFA WERE ARE A TARNISHED BRAND AGAIN.
'THE NEW YORK TIMES' RORY SMITH DESCRIBED THIS AS THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL WORLD CUP OF ALL TIME.
I MEAN, WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE THE MIGRANT WORKERS, LGBTQ RIOTERS, DAVID BECKHAM CRITICIZED, I THINK HE SAID THAT IT WAS POSITIVE THAT THE DEBRIS ABOUT THE KEY ISSUES BEING STIMULATED DIRECTLY ABOUT THE WORLD CUP BEING HELD IN THE REGION BUT DO YOU THINK ANY OF THE CORE NON-FOOTBALL ISSUES WERE PROPERLY ADDRESSED TO OR WERE THEY BURIED?
DID QATAR SUCCEED IN SPORTSWASHING?
THEY TRIED EVERYTHING TO DEFLECT THE ATTENTION FROM THOSE ISSUES.
I THINK THE STADIUMS WERE AMAZING.
YOU CAN'T GET AWAY FROM THE FAT THAT THE STADIUMS ARE BUILT ON THE SUFFERING OF PEOPLE, EXPLOITATION BY MIGRANT WORKERS WHO PAID A PATEANS, TERRIBLE HOUSING ACCOMMODATION AT BEST.
IT WAS BASICALLY BUILT FOR QATAR'S GLORIFICATION.
THE LIKES OF DAVID BECKHAM PAID AN AWFUL LOT OF MONEY TO -- BUT I THINK THE TERM SPORTSWASHING IS MISPLACED.
IN MANY PLACE, SPORT HAS SHED LIGHT ON WHAT IS HAPPENING IN QATAR, THE FACT THE WORLD CUP IS THERE MADE PEOPLE REALIZE WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING.
THEY WILL SAY THAT THE SITUATION HAS IMPROVED IN QATAR, THE WORKERS RIGHTS ARE BETTER.
BUT YOU CAN'T GET AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT THE STADIUM WHICH HOSTED THE FINAL AND THE STADIUM WHICH WAS USED WHICH WAS BUILD BACK BETTER BUILT WERE BUILT BY MIGRANT WORKERS WHO WEREN'T TREATED PROPERLY, WEREN'T BE GIVEN THE RIGHTS THEY WOULD BE GIVEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES.
THE LGBTQ SITUATION AS WELL.
I DON'T THINK THAT CHANGE IN QATAR.
WILL THEY MAKE A CHANGE NOW THAT THE WORLD IS LOOKING AT THEM?
I DOUBT IT.
I HOPE THEY DO.
THESE ARE THE ISSUES FIFA DIDN'T WANT US TO DISCUSS.
WHEN YOU TAKE THE WORLD CUP TO A COUNTRY LIKE QATAR, YOU HAVE TO DISCUSS THEM.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE 2030 WORLD CUP WHICH IS YET TO BE -- SAUDI ARABIA ARE A POTENTIAL BIGGER FOR THAT COMPETITION.
SAME QUESTIONS.
FIFA HAS TO ACCEPT WHEN THEY TAKE WUBS, THE BIGGEST TOURNAMENT WITH THE EYES OF THE WORLD ON IT, THEY HAVE TO ACCEPT SCRUTINY AND I THINK INFANTINO DOESN'T WANT THE SCRUTINY.
BUT IT WILL COME.
I WONDER IF QATAR WILL FEEL THAT ON THOSE ISSUES IN A WAY IT GOT AWAY WITH IT AT THE END OF IT ALL.
I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT FOOTBALL, TOO, BECAUSE IT WAS A WONDERFUL TOURNAMENT.
MOROCCO'S PERFORMANCE WAS INSPIRING.
JAPAN BEATING GERMANY AND SPAIN.
IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT AFRICA AND ASIAN TEAMS REALLY SIGNALED AT THIS WORLD CUP THAT THEY ARE ON THE RISE?
THEY ARE SORT OF GIANTS EMERGING?
> HOPEFULLY.
WE HAVE SEEN RESULTS AT DIFFERENT WORLD CUPS GOING BACK TO 1990.
SO WE HAVE SEEN -- I DO THINK THAT THE GENERAL SPREAD -- IN THIS WORLD CUP, YES, MOROCCO MADE IT TO THE SEMIFINALS AND JAPAN WERE FANTASTIC AS WELL.
THEN WE HAVE TO MENTION OTHER NATIONS, SAUDI ARABIA BEAT ARGENTINA, LET'S NOT FORGET.
ONE THING THIS TOURNAMENT PROVED IT IS A GLOBAL GAME AND NOT A GAME JUST THE RESERVE OF THE SOUTH AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN NATIONS.
THE FACT THAT IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE EAST ENABLED FANS TO TRAVEL IN NUMBERS AND FANS FROM THE SUBCONTINENT.
I SPOKE TO FANS FROM INDIA, PAKISTAN, BANGLADESH, NEPAL, NEVER QUALIFIED FOR THE WORLD CUP.
THEIR INTEREST IS HUGE.
YOU COULD SEE STADIUMS FILLED.
I WAS IN PORTUGAL AND I SAW THOUSANDS OF RONALDO SHIRTS.
THERE IS A DESIRE TO WATCH FOOTBALL IN THAT REGION.
WHEN FIFA DOES ALLOCATE FUTURE YOU TOURNAMENTS, IT HAS TO REFLECT THAT IT'S A GLOBAL GAME AND HAVE A CONTINENTAL ROTATION BASIS WHERE IT IS TAKEN AROUND THE WORLD AND IT HAS TO GO TO ASIA AGAIN SOON, TO AFRICA, NOT BEEN IN AFRICA SINCE 2010.
WHEN 2030, 2034 REL GATES IT, IT'S NOT ABOUT INFLUENCE, IT APPEALS TO THE FAN BASE AND FAKE IT AROUND THE WORLD.
THE OTHER THING I FOUND FASCINATING, I KEEP GOING GOING BACK TO MOROCCO, HALF THE TEAM WASN'T BORN IN MOROCCO AND THAT KIND OF SPEAKS TO THE POWER OF THE DIASPORA IN A WAY.
THAT GOES FOR A LOT OF NATIONS.
AND THE EXPERIENCE MANY COUNTRIES PLAY IS GETTING IN OTHER COUNTRIES.
I THINK HALF THE JAPANESE TEAM PLAY IN EUROPE.
AND FOOTBALL'S GOT TO BE THE WINNER?
ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.
THE EUROPEAN GAME, THE CLUB GAME, THE STRONG EASTER EGGS BY FAR IN THE WORLD IS BECAUSE PLAYERS ALL OVER THE WORLD PLAY IN EUROPE.
THAT AT TIMES MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR OTHER AREAS OF THE WORLD TO GROW.
THERE IS A THRIVING LEAGUE IN SAUDI ARABIA AND I THINK THE QATAR LEAGUE IS TRYING TO GET GOING, AND THE J-LEAGUE IN JAPAN.
THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD HEADS TOWARDS EUROPE.
THAT WILL ALWAYS BE THE CASE.
MAYBE IN THE PAST SOUTH AMERICAN TEAMS WOULD HAVE THE BEST PLAYERS.
THE MONEY IS IN EUROPE.
FIFA WANT TO HAVE A CLUB -- FIFA TRY TO MAKE THE GAME MORE GLOBAL AND TRYING TO NULLIFY THE POWER OF THE EUROPEAN TEAMS AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE ARE -- WE WILL SEE A POWER STRUGGLE IN THE NEXT FIVE OR SIX YEARS, THE CLUBS DON'T WANT TO GIVE IT UP BUT FIFA WANTS TO SPREAD THE WEALTH, THE FOCUS AROUND THE GLOBE AND IT WILL LEAD TO A LOT OF FRICTION, A LOT OF TENSION.
THERE IS TROUBLE AHEAD IN FOOTBALL.
YEAH.
THAT'S A FASCINATING TAKE.
I MEAN, OKAY.
NOW SO WE KNOW THE LIONEL MESSIS, THE KYLIAN MBAPPES.
ELSE IS LEFT OUT FROM THE CROWD FOR YOU AT THE TOURNAMENT?
WHO TOOK THE BEST ADVANTAGE OF THE SHOWCASE ENVIRONMENT?
TEAM OR INDIVIDUAL?
I THINK WE MENTIONED THE MOROCCO TEAM.
DESPITE AGO BEEN OUT FOR A WHILEONG.
ALEXIS MAC ALLISTER HAD A FANTASTIC WORLD CUP FOR ARGENTINA.
BELK HAM, 19-YEAR-OLD FOR ENGLAND, HE HAS A MASSIVE FUTURE IN THE GAME.
IT WAS A TOURNAMENT WE SAW THE NEW AGE START TO COME.
LIONEL MESSI, CRISTIANO RONALDO, IT IS THE START OF THE NEW WAVE.
I THINK KYLIAN MBAPPE LEADS THAT WAVE- DIDN'T QUALIFY IN 2026.
PEOPLE HOME TO SEE HARLEM THERE.
HE IS THE RIVAL TO MBAPPE, THE NEXT STAR OF THE NEXT GENERATION.
I THINK 2026 WE WILL SEE THE TALENT FLEWISH.
YEAH.
AND FOR YOU PERSONALLY, YOU WERE THERE FOR, YOU KNOW, A NUMBER OF WEEKS.
WHAT WAS IT ACTUALLY LIKE BEING IN QATAR IN TERMS OF THE ATMOSPHERE, WORKING THERE AS A JOURNALIST?
WE KNOW IT'S HECTIC AND YOU PROBABLY -- AND YOU COULDN'T GO FOR A BEER AFTERWARDS.
WHAT WAS IT LIKE ON A PERSONAL LEVEL?
THE ATMOSPHERE, THE FANS MADE IT A FANTASTIC ATMOSPHERE.
IT WAS VERY KIND OF LOCALIZED.
EVERYONE STAYED IN DOE.
IT WAS KIND OF THE EVERY NIGHT THE -- WHERE THE FANS COME TO -- BUT PROFESSIONAL POINT OF VIEW IS IT WAS A DIFFERENT WORLD CUP THAN THE PAST IN BRAZIL, RUSSIA, SOUTH AFRICA, YOU WOULD BE FLYING ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, GAMES IN DIFFERENT CITIES.
A DIFFERENT FLAVOR, DIFFERENT CITIES, DIFFERENT CLIMATES, DIFFERENT FAN BASES AND THAT ADDED A BIT OF SOMETHING SPECIAL TO THE WORLD CUPS.
IN QATAR IT WAS LOCALIZED WHICH MEANT THAT EVERYTHING WAS ON THE DOORSTEP.
THE FURTHER STADIUM WAS 45 MINUTES.
SO I THINK I DID SIX DAYS, SIX STRAIGHT 10:00 KICK-OFFS.
IT WAS QUITE HE EXHAUSTING.
IT'S A PRIVILEGE TO DO IT.
I THINK IT'S BETTER WHEN THE WORLD CUP IS SPREAD ACROSS THE COUNTRY SO THE WHOLE COUNTRY CAN EMBRACE IT AND THE DIFFERENT CULTURE FINDS OUT WHAT IT'S LIKE.
IT'S A SUCCESS.
THIS WORLD CUP WAS A SUCCESS ON THE PITCH.
IT WAS A FANTASTIC SUCCESS.
THE FANS MADE IT A SUCCESS.
OBVIOUSLY, THE QUESTIONS WON'T GO AWAY.
I DON'T THINK WE CAN LOOK BACK AT QATAR AND SAY IT WASN'T A SUCCESS.
I THINK IT WAS DIFFERENT.
IT WAS AN UNUSUAL WORLD CUP AND A LOT OF IT WAS YOU FELT LIKE IT WAS TAKING PLACE IN ALMOST LIKE A DISNEYLAND VILLAGE WHERE IT WASN'T QUITE REAL BUT IT WAS A FANTASY ISLAND AT TIMES AND THERE IS A LOT OF UNFINISHED BUILDINGS AND INFRASTRUCTURE.
THEY GOT IT DONE.
THEY FINISHED IT OFF WITH THE BEST FINAL WE HAVE EVER SEEN.
THEY SORT OF IN SUMMARY HAS FOOTBALL THE SPORT AS OPPOSED TO THE POLITICS AT THIS ONE, HAS THE SPORTY MERGED FROM THIS WORLD CUP HEALTHIER AND STRONGER, OR DAMAGED IN ANY WAY?
I THINK THE SPORT IS EMERGED HEALTHIER IN TERMS OF THE PLAYERS.
I THINK THE SPORT IN TERMS OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE SENSE IS DAMAGED.
FIFA CHOSE TO LOOK AWAY.
YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY WERE IN QATAR THEY CHOSE TO HIDEAWAY AND LOOK AWAY AND LEAVE EVERYBODY TO ASK THE QUESTIONS WITHOUT THE ANSWERS.
IN TERMS.
GAME ITSELF, YOU KNOW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MESSI, MBAPPE, MOROCCO, GREAT GAMES, GREAT GOALS.
FOOTBALL WILL WIN IN THE SENSE THAT THE PLAYERS AND FANS, THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE GAME WIN.
I THINK, UNFORTUNATELY, THAT HAS BEEN THE CASE FOR TOO LONG IT DOESN'T SHOW ANY CHAINS OF CHANGING.
MARK OGDEN, SENIOR WRITING WITH ESPN.
FASCINATING TO CHAT WITH YOU ABOUT THIS.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR MAKING THE TIME.
THANK YOU.
> WELL, IN THE SPIRIT OF WINS AND REFLECTIONS, 2022 HAS BEEN A GROUNDBREAKING YEAR FOR SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY FROM LIFE-SAVING VACCINES TO ESSAY WRITING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.
STAFF WRITER AT 'THE ATLANTIC' DEREK THOMPSON DETAILS THESE EXCITING DEVELOPMENTS IN HIS RECENT ARM.
AND HE JOINED HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS HOW OUR FUTURES CAN BENEFIT FROM THEM.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
WHY DO THIS LIST?
WHY DO THIS SORT OF BREAKTHROUGH OF TECH?
WHAT'S IMPORTANT ABOUT IT?
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE JUST EXTRAORDINARILY QUICKLY WE ARE PUSHING THE FRONTIER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY AND I WANT TO PAY ATTENTION TO STORIES THAT ARE POSITIVE AND LONG AND THE LONG ARC OF TECHNOLOGY IS INTERESTING.
THERE ARE A LOT OF HORRIBLE THINGS THAT HAPPENED BUT THESE STORIES DON'T END.
ELECTRICITY GETS BIGGER AND BIGGER.
THE SOFTWARE REVOLUTION GETS BIGGER AND BIGGER.
I WANT TO AS A JANUARY 5th PAY MORE ATTENTION TO STORIES THAT DON'T END AND THIS THIS WAY OF IDENTIFYING THE MOST SCIENTIFIC, MOST IMPORTANT SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNOLOGY BREAKTHROUGHS OF 2022 IS A GOOD WAY OF DOING THAT.
YOU TACKLE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.
WE ARE NOT NECESSARILY TALKING ABOUT THE KIND THAT TAKES OVER THE WORLD AND RUNS YOUR SPACESHIPS FOR YOU, BUT THIS WAS REALLY THE FIRST YEAR AS YOU POINT OUT THAT A LOT MORE PEOPLE GOT TO PLAY WITH AN EVOLUTIONARY STEP OF A.I.
THAT'S RIGHT.
OPEN A.I. IS ONE OF THESE EXTRAORDINARY COMPANIES WORKING ON THE FRONTIER OF A.I. AND THEY UNVEILED SOME ABSOLUTELY EXTRAORDINARY TOOLS.
DALL-E 2 IS A TEXT TO IMAGE TOOL.
SAY SOMETHING LIKE I WANT TO SEE A TELEVISION HOST WEARING A SPACE HELMET ON THE SURFACE OF VENUS AND THE STYLE OF VAN GOGH AND IT WILL PRODUCE THAT, WHICH IS FAIRLY EXTRAORDINARY.
AND IT WILL PRODUCE SOMETIMES PRETTY WONDERFUL BEAUTIFUL IMAGES.
IT CAN PRODUCE SOME JANKY IMAGES AS WELL.
THAT'S PART OF THE FUN.
MAYBE MOST INTERESTINGLY FOR ME THIS TECHNOLOGY.
GPT.
GENERATIVE PRETRAINED TRANSFORMER, AND CHATGPT, A NEW PROGRAM FROM OPEN A.I., WHICH ALLOWS ME TO TALK TO OR ANYBODY TO TALK TO THIS A.I. AS IF IT'S A SUPER BRAIN DISEMBODIED CHATBOT.
YOU CAN ASK IT TO SUMMARIZE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES, SUMMARIZE COMPLEX MEDICAL JOURNALS, ASK IT TO DO PARODIES, WRITE ME A STORY OF A MAN FALLING DOWN THE HILL IN THE STYLE OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE AND DO THESE THINGS WITH PRETTY EXTRAORDINARY FACILITY.
AND I THINK THIS ENTIRE FRONTIER IS SO INTERESTING FOR IDENTIFYING THE WAYS THAT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IS STARTING TO RETRACE THE OUTER BOUNDS OF HUMAN CREATIVITY.
I AM IMAGINING THIS CONVERSATION IS BEING WATCHED BY MAYBE AN EIGHTH GRADER OR A SOPHOMORE IN COLLEGE SALIVATING SAYING, OH, I HATE WRITING ESSAYS.
I WOULD LOVE TO GET A GOOD HEAD START ON MY ESSAY THANKS TO CHOT.
HOW DOES THIS -- WHAT ARE THE RIPPLE EFFECTS SHEER IN.
IT'S A BIG, WONDERFUL, PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION.
WHAT DO WE DO WHEN WE INTEND TECHNOLOGY THAT DOES THAT WHICH WE BELIEVE TO BE IMPORTANT FOR HUMANS TO DO?
WE THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO BE -- WE THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE EIGHTH GRADER WATCHING THIS TO WRITE AN ESSAY ABOUT BRAVE NEW WORLDS.
BUT WHAT IF WE ARE IN A FUTURE WHERE IT'S EASIER TO SIMPLY PROMPT A CHATGPT TO WRITE THAT ESSAY FOR THE STUDENT THAT MAYBE THE STUDENT CAN ESSAY SORE MAYBE THE STUDENT CAN EDIT OR NOT EDIT BEFORE THEY TURN IT IN.
THIS SOUNDS LIKE A MACHINE FOR PLAGIARISM.
I GET THAT.
WHAT IF THOUGH ONE OF THE IMPORTANT SKILLS OF THE NEXT GENERATION IS LEARNING HOW TO PROMPT?
RESEARCH HAS CHANGED AT THE LAST 50 YEARS.
USED TO BE THAT IN ORDER TO DO GREAT RESEARCH YOU HAD TO UNDERSTAND THE DEWEY DECIMAL AND GO TO A LIBRARY.
NO, IT'S ABOUT SUBVARIANT-SIZING INFORMATION YOU GET ON YOUR COMPUTER BY BEING A GOOD GOOGLER.
WHAT IF BEING A GOOD A.I.
PROMPTER IS THE NEXT GENERATION OF BEING A GOOD GOOGLER?
THAT MIGHT BE A POSITIVE WAY OF REFRAMING THIS SORT OF NEXT GENERATION OF RESEARCH.
I THINK IT'S USEFUL TO FLIP IT TO SAY NOT ONLY IS THIS A WAY FOR STUDENTS TO DO THEIR HOMEWORK FASTER, WHAT IT'S A WAY FOR TEACHERS DO THEIR WORK FASTER.
HOW FAST TO CREATE A LECTURE ABOUT 'BRAVE NEW WORLD,' TO CREATE AN EIGHTH OR NINTH GRADIENT CURRICULUM FOR ENGLISH.
GIVE ME A LIST OF 20 BOOKS PUBLISHED IN THE LAST 350 YEARS IN THE STYLE OF 'BRAVE NEW WORLD' THAT YADDIE-YADDIE-YADA AND THIS A.I. DOES THAT AS WELL.
I THINK WE WILL SEE A REVOLUTION ON BOTH SIDES OF EDUCATION THE NEXT FEW YEARS.
ONE OF THE SUBTITLES YOU HAD FOR A BREAKTHROUGH TECHNOLOGY WAS THE POWER TO REVERSE DEATH KIND OF.
EXPLAIN THAT.
THIS YEAR, THIS IS EXTRAORDINARY, A GROUP OF SCIENTISTS AT YALE TOOK SOME PIGS THAT HAD BEEN DEAD FOR AN HOUR AND INJECTED THEM WITH A SUBSTANCE THAT BROUGHT THEIR HEART AND ORGANS BACK TO LIFE, CELLS JOSTLED AS IF THEY WERE ALIVE.
THIS IS SPOOKY.
HE KNOW THIS IS GOING TO SOUND TO A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE 'FRANKENSTEIN' OR 'MONKEY'S PAW' OR 'PET CEMETERY,' ANY NUMBER OF TERRIFYING STORIES OF THE DEAD BEING BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE IN WAYS THAT HAUNTED HUMANITY, AND SO I DON'T WANT TO GO ALL THE WIE TO SAY THIS IS CLEARLY A TECHNOLOGY THAT POINTS ONLY TO THE GOOD.
IT'S ALSO RECOGNIZING THERE ARE MANY, MANY DEATHS ON BATTLEFIELDS OR IN NURSING HOMES AND HOUSES THAT ARE QUITE SUDDEN, WHETHER IT'S A SUDDEN CARDIAC ARREST OR A STROKE.
WHAT IF WE HAD TECHNOLOGY, YOU KNOW, SITTING IN PEOPLE'S HOMES AT NURSING HOMES, AT HOSPITALS, ON BATTLEFIELDS THAT COULD REVERSE CERTAIN ORGAN DEATHS VERY, VERY QUICKLY.
WE MIGHT BE AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THAT KIND OF REVOLUTION.
AND EVEN BEFORE WE GET THERE, WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO KEEP ORGANS ALIVE SO THAT PEOPLE WHO NEED A LIVER, NEED A KIDNEY IN ORDER TO SURVIVE, WE SAVE THAT LIFE BECAUSE OF A TECHNOLOGY TO PRESERVE CELLULAR ACTIVITY IN THE ORGANS OF THE RECENTLY DECEASED.
A LOT OF PEOPLE BECAME VERY AWARE OF THE RAPID PACE AT WHICH VACCINES WERE BEING DEVELOPED, ESPECIALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF THE PANDEMIC.
BUT THE TECHNOLOGIES UNDERNEATH THEM ARE NOW STARTING TO SHOW OFF SOME DIFFERENT USE CASES BESIDES JUST TO FIGHT COVID.
WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE ADVANCES?
IT'S REALLY EXCITING WHAT WE ARE SEEING.
WE MIGHT BE IN A GOLDEN AGE OF VACCINOLOGY.
IN SEPTEMBER WE GOT A MALARIA VACCINE BY OXFORD UNIVERSITY.
SAW EXTRAORDINARY RESULTS FOR A FOUR-DOSE VACCINATION AGAINST MALARIA.
THIS IS A DISEASE THAT KILLS VERY FEW PEOPLE IN AMERICA, BUT IT KILLS ALMOST 500,000 PEOPLE, MORE THAN 400,000 PEOPLE, EVERY SINGLE YEAR.
MANY OF THEM CHILDREN.
THIS STILL MIGHT BE ONE OF THE WORST SCOURGES OF THE WORLD AND IF WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO VACCINATE AGAINST IT THAT WOULD BE AN EXTRAORDINARY MITZVAH.
WE HAVE SEEN EXPERIMENTAL VACCINES AGAINST INDIVIDUAL CANCERS.
PFIZER AND MODERNA ARE WORKING ON INDIVIDUAL CANCER VACCINATIONS THE SAME WAY THAT THE mRNA VACCINES TAUGHT OUR BODY TO RECOGNIZE THE SPIKE ON THE CORONAVIRUS, THESE VACCINES WOULD GET OUR BODIES TO RECOGNIZE AND FIGHT AGAINST A BIOMARKER OF A CANCER THAT WE HAVE SO THAT WE ATTACK IT SPECIFICALLY RATHER THAN USE SOMETHING LIKE CHEMOTHERAPY TO RANSACK OUR ENTIRE BIOLOGICAL SYSTEM.
AND FINALLY, EXPERIMENTAL FLU VACCINES.
EVERY YEAR WHEN PEOPLE GET A FLU SHOT THEY ARE GETTING A FLU SHOT AGAINST A VERY SPECIFIC STRAIN.
BUT THERE ARE 20 LINEAGES OF INFLUENZA AND WITHIN THOSE LINEAGES THERE ARE MANY STRAINS AND IF WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO COME UP WITH A PAN INFLUENZA VIRUS THAT REDUCES MORTALITY FOR ALL OF THOSE STRAINS, IT MEANS WE MIGHT NEVER HAVE A TERRIBLE FLU SEASON AGAIN.
WE WILL HAVE NO WAY OF HAVING A SPANISH INFLUENZA.
IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THE LAST PANDEMIC WAS A CORONAVIRUS.
THE NEXT ONE MIGHT BE A SUPER FLU.
IF WE GET AHEAD OF IT WITH THE PAN INFLUENZA VACCINE, MY GOD, WE COULD SAVE MILLIONS IF NOT TENS OF MILLIONS OF LIVES.
IN ALL, JUST AN EXTRAORDINARY YEAR FOR THE FRAN TIER OF VACCINES.
YOU ALSO WRITE ABOUT A HAPPY ACCIDENT IN THE WEIGHT LOSS REVOLUTION.
WHAT HAPPENED THIS YEAR?
IT'S INTERESTING.
WE HAVE HAD DIABETES MEDICATION THAT HAD THE SIDE EFFECT OF THE PATIENTS LOSING A TON OF WEIGHT.
AND AS A RESULT SOME OF THE COMPANIES THAT DEVELOP THESE DIABETES MEDICATIONS LOOKED INTO IT AND SAID, MY GOD, THIS SIDE EFFECT IS AN EFFECT AND SO WE WITH HAVE TAKEN OUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE WAY THAT SOME DIABETES MEDICATION CAN SHIFT OUR HORMONES IN A WAY THAT IT INCREASES SATIETY, IT SLOWS THE PACE WHICH OUR STOMACHS EMPTY AND CAN BE REALLY, REALLY EFFECTIVE FOR AS AN OWE BOWSTY MEDICATION.
THESE ARE DLINCAL TRIALS SHOWING THAT THESE MEDICATIONS REDUCE PEOPLE'S WEIGHT BY 15 TO 20% IN A MATTER OF MONTHS.
THAT'S EXTRAORDINARY WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE VARIOUS EFFECTS OF THE FACT THAT 40% OF AMERICANS TODAY ARE KLINCKE OBESE AND TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD IN ADVANCED COUNTRIES ARE KLINCKE OBESE AS WELL.
LIKE THIS GOLDEN AGE OF VACCINES, WE MIGHT BE ENTERING A GOLDEN AGE OF OBESITY THERAPIES WHICH COULD BE REALLY WONDERFUL.
ONE THE BIG IMAGES THAT STARTED TO MAKE ITS WAY AROUND THE WORLD WERE SOME OF THE FIRST PURSE FROM SPACE THE JAMES WEBB TELESCOPE.
WHAT WAS INTERESTING AND SURPRISING TO YOU WHAT WE SAW?
I THINK WHAT'S MOST THRILLING ABOUT THESE IMAGES IS THEY ARE NOT JUST THE GREATEST CAMERA ZOOM FUNCTION EVER INVENTED.
THEY ARE A TIME MACHINE.
THEY ARE A TIME MACHINE THAT ALLOWS YOU TO LOOK 13 BILLION IERS E YEARS IN THE PAST.
IF WE HAVE ENOUGH POLAROID SNAPSHOTS OF OUR UNIVERSE 13 BILL YEARS BAG WE FLIP THROUGH THEM AND SEE A MOVIE OF WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR THE UNIVERSE TO UNFOLD.
THE OTHER THRILLING THING ABOUT THESE PHOTOGRAPHS IT'S NOT JUST THAT WE CAN SEE INTO THE DEEP PAST.
WE CAN SPY ON AN EXOPLANET, SEE INTO ITS ATMOSPHERE THE SAME WAY THAT YOU GET THOSE CAMERAS ZOOM OPS WHEN YOU ARE WATCHING 'STAR WARS' OR 'STAR TREK,' THAT SORT OF NEW SORT OF PLANET COMING INTO VIEW.
WE SEE THE ATMOSPHERE AND MAYBE BE ABLE TO GUESS WHAT ARE THE GASES PRESENT, HOW DOES IT COMPARE TO OURS, IF WE SEE EVIDENCE OF LIFE, DOES THAT EXPAND OUR SEVENS OF WHAT KIND OF CONDITIONS ARE NECESSARY FOR LIFE TO BEGIN.
WE ARE JUST AT THE BEGINNING OF BEING ABLE TO UNDERSTAND LIFE THROUGHOUT THE COSMOS, MEANING AND TIME AND MATTER AND ALL THESE BIG QUESTIONS OF HOW DID IT ALL BEGIN, WE ARE BEGINNING TO SEW THAT BUT ARE YOU HAVE TO A IMAGES FIRST.
THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY HAD A PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT THAT AT THE LAWRENCE NATIONAL LABORATORIES WE CREATED THE FIRST EXPERIMENT WITH FUSION WHERE IT GENERATED MORE POWER THAN WE PUT INTO IT AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE SORT OF HOLY GRAILS.
THE LEVEL THIS WAS GENERATED AND HOW MUCH POWER WENT INTO IT, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL HAPPEN NEXT WEEK.
WHY WAS THIS SUCH A HUGE DEAL?
THE DREAM OF LIMITLESS POWER HAN BEEN POPULAR WITHIN SCIENCE FOR THE LAST 70 YEARS SINCE WE HAD OUR FIRST BREAKTHROUGH.
WE HAVE BEEN WORKING TOWARD IT.
IT IS A MASSIVE BREAKTHROUGH.
BUT YOU CON TEXASLIZED IT BEAUTIFULLY.
IT DOESN'T MANY YOU HAVE ACTUALLY ANYTHING FOR ANYBODY'S LIFE.
WE CREATED THIS MINI SHOULD HYDROGEN BOMB IN A LAB EXTRAORDINARY AT SCALE, CHEAP ENOUGH, EFFICIENTLY ENOUGH, RELIABLY ENOUGH, COULD HELP SOLVE THE ISSUE OF CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT, BUT THAT TECHNOLOGY IS NOT GOING TO BE AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE TO USE TO LIGHT THEIR ROOMS AND LIGHT THEIR LIGHT BES FOR DECADES.
MEANTIME, GLOBAL WARMING EXISTS.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO BE OPTIMISTIC AND REALISTIC.
OPTIMISTIC SCENE PUSHING FORWARD THE FRONTIER AND REALISTIC THAT BY THE TIME FUSION HAS ANY CONTACT WITH OUR LIFE WE ARE CONTINUING TO CHOKE THE PLANET AND WE STILL NEED TO DO OTHER THINGS RATHER THAN JUST INVENT IN THIS SPACE.
IT'S INTERESTING THAT ONE OF THE TYPES OF RESPONSES THAT I SAW TO THAT ANNOUNCEMENT PEOPLE WHO WERE SKEPTICAL OF WHAT SCIENCE CAN DO WERE LOOKING AT THIS AND SAYING, LOOK HOW MUCH THIS COST JUST TO GET US TO THIS POINT.
SHOULDN'T WE SPEND MONEY IN THE COMING DECADES TOWARDS OTHER TYPES OF MITIGATION STRATEGIES OF WHAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS GOING TO IMPACT ON US?
THEN PEOPLE LOOKING AT THIS AND SAYING THIS ACTUALLY THE ABSOLUTE JUSTIFICATION FOR WHY WE SHOULD SPEND MORE ON TRYING TO FIND SOMETHING LIKE THIS, RIGHT?
SO YOU LOOK AT THE SAME DATA AND VERY DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF WHAT TO DO WITH THAT.
YEAH, IT'S A RORSCHACH, ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK YOU COULD TELL A PARALLEL STORY WITH THE HISTORY OF THE SOLAR CELL, RIGHT, OF SOLAR TECHNOLOGY, SOLAR CELL MODERN SILICON, INVENTED IN BELL LABS IN 1954.
IF YOU TRIED TO USE THOSE FIRST SILICON SOLAR CELLS TO LIGHT THE TYPICAL AMERICAN HOUSE TODAY IT WOULD COST APPROXIMATELY 1 TO $2 MILLION TO LIGHT AND WARM YOUR HOUSE EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE YEAR.
SO $365 MILLION, THAT'S YOUR ENERGY BILL, RIGHT?
YOU COULD SAY IN 1954 AND 1955, WELL, THIS TECHNOLOGY DOESN'T DO ANYTHING.
WE ARE SPENDING ALL THIS TIME AND USING ALL OF THIS, YOU KNOW, BRAIN POWER, ALL THESE RESOURCES IN ORDER TO INVENT SOMETHING THAT ISN'T USEFUL.
IT WASN'T USEFUL THEN.
SINCE THE IS THE 70s THE COST OF SOLAR ENERGY IS CHEAPER THAN OIL OR GAS TO INSTALL AND USE.
SO YOU NEED MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF REVOLUTIONS ON THE FULL PATH OF PROGRESS.
YOU NEED BREAKTHROUGHS.
THEN YOU JUST SOLVE THE PRICE PROBLEM AND YOU HAVE TO SOLVE THE RELIABILITY PROBLEM AND YOU HAVE TO SOLVE THE TRANSMISSION PROBLEM AND YOU HAVE TO SOLVE THE REGULATORY PROBLEM.
IT'S AN OBSTACLE COURSE.
THERE ARE A BUNCH OF HURDLES TO OVERCOME.
IT'S OKAY TO BE HAPPY THAT YOU HAVE OVERCOME THE FIRST HURDLE AND SAY THERE IS MORE TO COME, NOW WE HAVE TO SOLVE THE NEXT PROBLEM.
THERE IS IDEAS AND THEN THERE IS SORT OF EXECUTION.
EVERY VENTURE CAN'T LIST TELLS YOU HOW DO YOU GET TO THIS MARKET.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE LONG ARC OF TECHNOLOGICAL EXECUTION IN THE UNITED STATES, WE WIN NOBEL PRIZEs, RESEARCH AWARDS, WE ARE FANTASTIC AT DISCOVERING LOTS OF THINGS.
YOU POINT OUT THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD CATCHES AND SOMETIMES PASSES US EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T INVENT THE STUFF.
THE U.S. IS THE GLOBAL CHAMPION OF INVENTING BUT NOT THE GLOBAL CHAMPION OF NOT BUILDING WHAT WE INVENT.
WE INVENTED NUCLEAR POWER BUT CLOSED MORE THAN WE HAVE OPENED IN 20 YEARS.
THE U.S. INVENTED SOLAR POW BETTER THE TECHNOLOGICAL FRONTIER WENT TO ASIA AND GERMANY.
THE U.S. INVENTED ELEVATORS AND SKYSCRAPERS WE HAVE A HOUSING CRISIS BECAUSE WE DON'T BUILD ENOUGH TALL APARTMENT BUILD THINGS PLAGUESES LIKE LOS ANGELES, SAN FRANCISCO, NEW YORK CITY, BOSTON.
SO WE INVENTED THE TECHNOLOGY BUT DON'T MAKE ENOUGH USE OF IT.
I AM FASCINATED BY THIS DISCREPANCY.
I DON'T KNOW THAT I HAVE THE FULL ANSWER TO WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.
I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THE ANSWER TO WHAT'S GOING ON HERE IS ONE OF THE MORE IMPORTANT MYSTERIES OF THE 21ST CENTURY.
WHY DOESN'T AMERICA BUILD WHAT IT INVENTS?
FRANKLY, I AM STILL WORKING ON THIS ANSWER.
I HAVE A COUPLE OF THEORIES.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO FOREGROUND INTO REALITY.
WE HAVE ALL THE NOBEL PRIZEs FOR SCIENCE AND PHYSICS AND TECHNOLOGY.
WE LEAD THE WORLD IN NOBEL PRIZEs B YOU IF THERE IS A NOBEL PRIZE FOR BUILDING OR DEPLOYING WHAT WE INVENT, WE WOULD NOT NECESSARILY BE AT THE TOP OF THE WORLD.
WE HAVE A LOT OF INTERESTING BARRIERS, A LOT OF INTERESTING BIASES AGAINST BUILDING.
I AM CURIOUS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THOSE ARE.
IF YOU HAD TO PICK WHICH OF THESE BREAKTHROUGHS THAT YOU WROTE ABOUT AND RESEARCHED IS GOING TO IMPACT PEOPLE MOST DIRECTLY?
GREAT QUESTION.
I DON'T HAVE A STRONGLY CONFIDENT ANSWER.
I'LL PROPOSE AN ANSWER.
I THINK A.I.
THE REASON IT'S A.I. IS THAT A CANCER THERAPY CAN'T WRITE AN ESSAY.
BUT A SOPHISTICATED A.I. THAT WRITES AN ESSAY CAN ALSO ASSIST A VACCINEOLOGIST IN IDENTIFYING MOW HE MOLECULAR COMBINATIONS THAT CREATE THE NEXT -- A.I.
MIGHT BE UPSTREAM OF EVERYTHING.
IF WE ARE BUILDING FOR THE HUMAN RACE, A KIND OF SECOND DISEMBODIED BRAIN, A DISEMBODIED SUPER BRAIN THAT CAN SIT ALONGSIDE US, LIKE A LITTLE -- LIKE A LITTLE COMPANION, AND HELP US BE SUPER BRILLIANT AT ANSWERING -- AND SUPER FAST, BUT ANSWERING ALL OF THESE COMPLICATED QUESTIONS, NOT JUST ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE THEMES OF 'BRAVE NEW WORLD,' BUT ACTUALLY INVENTING NEW MOLECULES AND PROTEINS AND SYNTHETIC mRNAs, WE'RE OPENING AN ENTIRELY NEW KINGDOM OF HUMAN POTENTIAL HERE.
I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY WHAT I'M MOST EXCITED ABOUT.
DEREK THOMPSON, THE ARTICLE IS BREAKTHROUGHS OF THE YEAR IN 'THE ATLANTIC.'
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU.
> AND FINALLY, PARTS OF UKRAINE HAVE BEEN PLUNGED IN DARKNESS REPEATEDLY AS RUSSIA CONTINUES ITS ATTACK ON KYIV.
BUT OVER THE WEEKEND A DEFIANT LIGHT TOOK HOLD IN KYIV.
ON SATURDAY, A CHRISTMAS TREE DUBBED THE INVINCIBILITY TREE BY THE CITY'S MAYOR BEGAN TO SHINE.
YOU SEE IT THERE.
SUNDAY, THE CITY ALSO MARKED THE START OF HANUKKAH, LIGHTING WHAT KYIV CLAIMS TO BE THE TALLEST MENORAH IN EUROPE.
AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
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