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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" AND HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP.
>> I HAVE HONESTLY NOT SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
ABOUT 1,500 KIDS IN THERE.
>> SEPARATED, OSCAR WINNING ERROL MORRIS AND JACOB SOBOROFF HIGHLIGHT WHAT IT IS LIKE TO SEPARATE MIGRANT CHILDREN FROM THEIR FAMILIES.
>>> AND ISRAEL'S WAR WITH GAZA AND MORE SHOCKING REVELATIONS AND WE GET MORE FROM JOURNALIST OMER BARTOV.
>> AND PAUL KRUGMAN SAYS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S REPUTATION WILL RECOVER.
♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY-- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
AS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S INAUGURAL APPROACHES, WE ARE LEARNING THAT IT IS A TOUGH THING TO DO, BUT YOU HAVE TO DO IT.
>> IS IT REALISTIC TO DEPORT EVERYONE?
>> WELL, YOU HAVE TO DO IT.
WE ARE STARTING WITH THE CRIMINALS AND THEN OTHERS AND WE WILL SEE HOW IT GOES.
WE DON'T HAVE TO SEPARATE THE FAMILIES AND WE WILL SEND THEM HUMANLY BACK WHERE THE FAMILIES CAME FROM.
IT WILL BE HUMANE, YOU WILL SEE.
>> THE PRACTICE WAS DRIVEN IN PART BY HIS LONG-TIME ANTI-ACTIVIST STEVEN MILLER WHO SAID THAT WE WILL SEE THE LONGEST DEPORTATION IN HISTORY, AND FORCIBLY REMOVING CHILDREN FROM THEIR FAMILIES WAS PURPORTEDLY INTENDED TO SEPARATE THE FAMILIES AND SHOCKINGLY DIVIDING TRUMP'S OWN CABINET.
BUT EVEN TODAY, ACCORDING TO THE NEXT GUEST, THERE ARE STILL THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE EFFECTIVELY SEPARATED AND ORPHANED.
I HAVE BEEN SPEAKING WITH ERROLL MORRIS AND JACOB SOBOROFF ABOUT THESE PREDICTED INTERVENTIONS.
NOW, LET ME START WITH YOU, ERROLL, AND WHAT IS THE STATUS RIGHT NOW OF THE BORDER, THE PLANS, THE PEOPLE, CROSSINGS, AND WHAT ARE YOU FINDING IN THE REPORTING RIGHT NOW?
>> WHAT I LEARNED, CHRISTIANE, IN COVERING THE SEPARATION POLICY IN THE LAST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS WHEN THE INCOMING TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SAYS THEY ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING, BELIEVE THEM.
WHEN THEY SAID THEY WOULD DELIBERATELY SEPARATE THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN FROM THEIR PARENT AT THE BORDER, THEY DID.
AND WHAT ONE JUDGE SAID IS THE MOST SHAMEFUL CHAPTERS IN OUR HISTORY, IT WAS.
AND I STOOD FEET AWAY AS THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HELD UP SIGNS THAT SAID "MASS DEPORTATION NOW" AND IT IS NOW JUST NOT PART OF THAT ADMINISTRATION, BUT TIN COMING ADMINISTRATION.
IT IS NOT JUST TAKING THE CHILDREN AWAY FROM THE PARENTS AT THE BORDER, BUT AWAY FROM THE FAMILIES IN THE INTERIOR AND THEIR WORKPLACES POTENTIALLY AND CERTAINLY IN THE HOMES.
I THINK THAT HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE WE TALKING?
THIS IS A SUPER SIZED COMPARED TO THE ORIGINAL SEPARATION, AND 29 MILLION PEOPLE WHO LIVE WITH AN UNDOCUMENTED FAMILY MEMBER IN THE HOUSEHOLD, AND SO IT IS ORDERS OF THE MAGNITUDE GREATER THAN WHAT PEOPLE WERE OUTRAGED BY FROM WHAT ERROL MORRIS SO BEAUTIFULLY DOCUMENTS IN THE FILM AND THE WORLD IS NOT PREPARED FOR WHAT IS TO COME.
>> AND ERROL, IN A RECENT INTERVIEW, YOU ARE PROBABLY WELL ACQUAINTED WITH IT WITH JAY KOSHGS AND HE SAID, WELL, WE WON'T SEPARATE THE FAMILIES, BUT WE WILL SEND THEM BACK TOGETHER.
>> WHEN TRUMP AND HOLMAN SAYS, WE WILL SEND THEM BACK TOGETHER, THEY ARE MODELING WHAT DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER DID WITH A NAME SO RACIST WE SHOULD NOT SAY IT ON TELEVISION, BUT ELSEWHERE, BUT IT IS AN OPERATION THAT DEPORTED MILLIONS OF MEXICANS HERE UNDER THE BECERRA PROGRAM, AND WHAT THEY ARE TELLING AMERICAN CITIZEN CHILDREN OF PARENTS OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS WITH THE PARENTS WHO ARE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS THEY CAN GET UP TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY, AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IMMIGRANTS LEGALLY LIVING IN THE COUNTRY TODAY.
>> AND ERROL MORRIS, WHAT WAS THE TRIGGER POINT FOR YOU TO GET INVOLVED OF A DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE 1.0 SEPARATION POLICY ALSO KNOWN AS THE ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY?
>> JACOB ASKED ME TO TURN IT INTO A MOVIE, AND I DID, MYSELF, AND THAT HOW IT ALL BEGAN.
I FOUND THOSE POLICIES ABHORRENT THEN, AND I STILL FIND THEM ABHORRENT.
AND THE SHOCKING PART OF IT IS THAT WE HAVE LEARNED NOTHING, AND IT MAY ALL HAPPEN OVER AGAIN.
>> WHERE DOES THIS FIT, ERROL IN THE SORT OF THE COMPENDIUM OF WHERE YOU FOCUS THE LENLSS AND YOUR WORKS, AND YOU ARE SO WELL KNOWN FOR "FOG OF WAR" AND "THIN BLUE LINE" AND WHERE DOES THIS ISSUE FIT FOR YOU?
>> I AM ENDLESSLY FASCINATED BY SELF-DECEPTION, AND THE QUESTION OF WHAT DO PEOPLE THINK THAT THEY WERE DOING?
TO ME, THE POLICIES ARE UNMISTAKABLY RACIST.
THE CAMPAIGN, THE REPUBLICAN CAMPAIGN FOR PRESIDENT TO ME WAS ALSO UNMISTAKABLY RACIST.
AND YET, IT SELLS.
IT HAS AN APPEAL TO A VAST NUMBER OF VOTERS.
MYSELF NOT INCLUDED.
>> AND THE INTERESTING THING IS TO FOLLOW ON, JACOB, FOR WHAT ERROL IS SAYING THAT YOU WERE COVERING AT THE TIME.
IN THE DOCUMENTARY, IT IS SAYING FROM JUNE OF 2018, KIRSTJEN NIELSEN, AND HE IS WAS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY SAYING THAT WE DO NOT HAVE A POLICY OF SEPARATING FAMILIES AT THE BORDER, PERIOD.
JACOB, IS THAT TRUE OR NOT TRUE BACK THEN?
>> IT IS NOT TRUE, AND THEN SELF-DECEPTION MAY BY A CORRECT DECEPTION OF WHAT WAS GOING ON BACK THEN, BUT WHAT ERROL MORRIS LAYS OUT BACK THEN -- >> YOU COULD ALSO CALL IT A LIE.
>> YES, THAT IS VERY TRUE.
AND ERROL DOES WHAT HE DOES BEST IN THIS FILM, A FORENSIC REVIEW OF THE DEMOCRACY HERE THAT ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN.
AND WHAT THE JUDGE LOOKED AT WON A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WHICH MET THE DEFINITION OF TORTURE, AND IT WAS AT THE TIME GOVERNMENT-SANCTIONED CHILD ABUSE, AND WHAT YOU WILL SEE IS THE EMAILS ON THE SCREEN, AND HOW DO YOU SAY OBJECTIVELY THAT THE POLICY WAS NOT INTENTIONALLY CRUEL, AND WHAT ERROL MORRIS DOES IS TO LAY IT OUT WITH THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WHO SAID SET HARM TO THE CHILDREN ON THE SCREEN, AND WHEN FAMILIES WERE ACTUALLY BEING REUNITED AND AFTER BEING DELIBERATELY SEPARATED AFTER KIRSTJEN NIELSEN EFFECTIVELY WITH A STROKE OF THE PEN SEPARATED THEM, THAT MOTHERS AND FATHERS AND THE LITTLE CHILDREN, AND IN SOME INSTANCES BABIES BEING REUNITED INSTEAD OF FORCE FORCEABLEY BEING SEPARATED.
>> AND NOW, THERE ARE 1,000 OR MORE WHO THEY CANNOT MATCH WITH PARENT, AND THEY ARE STILL SEPARATED AND THEIR PARENTS ARE PROBABLY NOT IN THE COUNTRY, BUT CAN I ASK YOU BOTH A QUESTION, AND SOME OF THE OFFICIALS TALK ABOUT IT.
THE ADMINISTRATION OPENLY OR AMONGST THEMSELVES USED THIS POLICY, BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED THAT IT WAS A DETERRENT.
THAT WAS THEIR PHILOSOPHY, AND THEIR POLITICAL IMPERATIVE.
SO, WHY, ERROL -- >> YOU SEE, I DON'T BELIEVE IT.
THEY MIGHT HAVE SOLD IT AS A DETERRENT, BUT THE MAIN PURPOSE WAS A DOG WHIS TLE TO THE BASE, TO THEIR FOLLOWERS, TO SHOW THEIR FOLLOWERS, LOOK AT HOW MEAN WE CAN BE, LOOK AT CRUEL WE CAN BE, AND HOW TOUGH WE CAN BE WITH IMMIGRANTS, AND TO MANY, THAT IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF IT ALL.
>> UH-HUH.
AND NOW, LOOK, THERE IS A VERY BROKEN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM, AND THAT IS ABSOLUTELY BEYOND DENIAL, AND NOBODY IN CONGRESS HAS MANAGED TO ORGANIZE THEMSELVES TO MAKE IT EFFICIENT, AND SO WE HAVE TERRIBLE ISSUE, AND WE HAVE VOTERS WHO IN ALL OVER THE WORLD RIGHT NOW, IMMIGRATION HAS BECOME A MAIN VOTING ISSUE.
SO THAT IS THE FACT.
WHEN YOU FOUND THE PEOPLE TO SPEAK TO IN THIS DOCUMENTARY, AND FOR INSTANCE JONATHAN WHITE, HE IS AT THE HEART OF THE WHITE JUST ABOUT, HIS TESTIMONY, CAPTAIN JONATHAN WHITE, CAREER GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL IN THE OFFICE OF REFUGEE SETTLEMENT, AND BRAVE ENOUGH TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT THIS.
AND HERE IS SOME OF WHAT HE HAS TO SAY, JONATHAN WHITE.
>> FAMILY SEPARATION WAS NOT ABOUT UNACCOMPANIED CHILDREN, BUT ACCOMPANIED CHILDREN, CHILDREN WITH THEIR FAMILIES.
AND THE UNACCOMPANIED CHILDREN PROGRAM WHICH I WORKED IN WAS ESSENTIALLY HIJACKED FOR A PURPOSE FOR WHICH IT WAS NEVER INTENDED NOR AUTHORIZED IN LAW.
IT WAS A PROGRAM DESIGNED TO BE A CHILD PROTECTION PROGRAM FOR CHILDREN WHO ENTERED THE UNITED STATES WITHOUT PARENTS AND INSTEAD USED AS TOOL TO TAKE CHILDREN FROM THEIR PARENTS.
>> JACOB, HOW DID YOU FIND JONATHAN WHITE, AND HE IS PASSIONED AND MORALLY COMMITTED TO GETTING THIS STORY OUT, AND WHY DO YOU BELIEVE HE AGREED TO CIPATE DO YOU THINK?
>> HIS STRONG FEELINGS OF THIS POLICY BEING MORALLY WRONG.
HE WAS NOT REALLY ALLOWED TO SPEAK.
MOST PEOPLE COULD NOT OR WOULD NOT SPEAK TO ME AT ALL, BECAUSE THERE WERE RESTRICTIONS, AND GOVERNMENT RESTRICTIONS, IF THEY ARE STILL WORKING FOR THE GOVERNMENT, THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK, AND CERTAINLY NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT PERMISSION, AND JONATHAN WHITE FELT SO STRONGLY ABOUT THESE ISSUES, THAT HE WAS WILLING TO TAKE THE RISK, THE RISK OF TALKING PUBLICLY ABOUT HIS FEELINGS OF OUTRAGE, AND TO ME, HE IS AN AMERICAN HERO.
>> AND THEN THERE'S ANOTHER GUY WHO IS THE DIRECT OPPOSITE, A WHITE SUPERIOR SCOTT LLOYD.
HE WAS A POLITICAL APPOINTEE, UNLIKE WHITE WHO WAS A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE, AND HE WAS THE DIRECTOR OF THE REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT, AND WHEN YOU HAVE THEM HIM ON THE AIR, AND IN THE INTERVIEW, HE WAS MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE LEAKS AND THE CHILDREN, AND HE WAS E VA ZI.
WHY DID YOU WANT TO PUT HIM IN THE MOVIE?
DID HE SAY MUCH?
>> I THINK THAT HE TELLS US A LOT.
WE CAN SEE A PERSON IN THE CENTER OF THE PROGRAM, OF ESSENTIALLY KEEPING CHILDREN WHO HAS VERY LITTLE INTEREST IN THE CHILDREN, THEMSELVES.
HE HAS INTEREST IN HIS OWN REPUTATION.
TO ME, THE MOST HORRIFIC ASPECT OF ALL OF THIS IS NOT JUST THAT THEY SEPARATED CHILDREN WHICH IN ITSELF IS SHOCKING.
IT IS THAT THEY DIDN'T KEEP RECORDS.
THEY DIDN'T KEEP RECORDS OF HOW TO EVER POSSIBLY REUNITE THESE FAMILIES THAT HAD BEEN BROKEN APART.
AND WHEN INFORMATION WAS LEAKED TO THIS EFFECT, SCOTT LLOYD EXPRESSED OUTRAGE, AND HE DID NOT LIKE THIS FACT THAT SOMEHOW HE WAS GETTING NEGATIVE PUB LISLY AS A -- PUBLIC LYITY.
>> AND SO, ERROL, YOU POINTED OUT WHAT THE SOUTHERN MIGRATION LOOKED LIKE TO THE BORDER.
>> WHAT I CAME TO LEARN AFTER VISITING THESE FACILITIES IS THAT THEY WERE ALL WARNED.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOU SEPARATED, CREATING PERMANENT ORPHANS WAS THE WORST-CASE SCENARIO.
>> AND JACOB, REMIND US EXACTLY, AND I SORT OF APPROXIMATED THE FIGURES, BUT THERE ARE RIGHT NOW PERMANENT ORPHANS IN THE UNITED STATES.
HOW MANY ARE STILL OUT THERE?
>> YOU MENTIONED THE NUMBER AT THE END OF OF THE MOVIE, CHRISTIANE, WHICH AT ACCORDING TO THE HOMELAND DEPARTMENT IS 1,563 WHO ARE PERMANENT ORPHANS.
I WANT TO LOOK AT THE NARRATIVE THAT ERROL MADE THERE, AND WHY THIS IS A STORY THAT IS TOLD ONLY THE WAY THAT ERROL MORRIS CAN MAKE, AND WHEN I WAS INVITED IN AS A TELEVISION JOURNALIST, I WAS INVITED IN WITH PAD AND PAY PER -- PAPER ONLY, AND WE WERE NOT ALLOWED WITH CAMERA, AND WE WERE TO DESCRIBE IT TO SCARE OTHER PEOPLE TO NOT COME TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
AND SO WHAT ERROL MORRIS HAS DONE WITH THE PRODUCTION DESIGNER, AND THE ACTRESS WHO PLAYS THE MOTHER IN THE FILM, AND DIEGO, AND THE ENTIRE MEXICAN CAST AND CREW IS TO GET TO THE EMOTIONAL TOLL THAT ALL OF THE FAMILIES CAN SPEAK ABOUT.
AND THE GOVERNMENT ONLY ALLOWED PROPAGANDA IMAGES TO COME OUT, AND SO ERROL MORRIS HAS TAKEN THAT BACK FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND SHOWING THE PEOPLE WHO SEE THIS FILM WHAT PEOPLE WENT THROUGH AT THE HANDS OF THE UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION POLICY.
>> AND FINALLY, THE NUMBERS OF IMMIGRATION SEEM TO BE FALSE AS FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND THAT 1,300 CONVICTED MURDERS WERE ALLOWED INTO THE COUNTRY BY VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS, AND THEY WERE ALLOWED TO RAPE AND PILLAGE AMERICANS, AND THAT IS NOT TRUE.
SO WHAT EFFECT HAS THIS HAD ON THE BODY POLITIC, AND SO WHAT DOES THAT DO TO SOCIETY AT LARGE IN THE END?
>> IT IS A IBLY CORRUPTING EFFECT, AND THE QUESTION TO ME IS HOW DID A COUNTRY OF IMMIGRANTS SUDDENLY BECOME A COUNTRY OF WHERE THE IMMIGRANTS ARE SUDDENLY VILIFIED, AND IMMIGRANTS ARE CALLED DRUGGISTS AND RAPISTS AND DRUG DEALERS AND AS IF EVERYBODY COMING INTO THIS COUNTRY IS A CRIMINAL.
I DON'T KNOW HOW THE DESCRIBE IT HOW THIS COUNTRY WHICH IS MAYBE ALWAYS WRESTLING WITH ELEMENTS OF RACISM, HOW DID IT TURN OVER INTO A SOCIETY WHERE RACISM BECAME THE FUNDAMENTAL TURNING POINT OF AN ELECTION FOR PRESIDENT?
FOR ME, IT IS INCREDIBLY SAD AND FRIGHTENING.
>> AND JACOB, IT IS NOT EASY UNDER THIS CURRENT CLIMATE TO KEEP REPORTING IN THIS VERY TOUGH WAY ABOUT THESE POLICIES.
HOW DO YOU PLAN TO KEEP REPORTING ON THIS ISSUE?
>> I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO DO WHAT WE DID WHEN WE WERE INVITED INTO THE FACILITIES BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN 2018 WHICH IS TO HOLD UP A MIRROR TO SOCIETY TO SHOW THEM WHAT IS HAPPENING.
THIS MOVIE IS VERY TOUGH TO GRAPPLE WITH, AND IT IS ALSO INSPIRING FOR MY FELLOW JOURNALISTS WHO WENT OUT THERE TO SHOW WHAT IT IS FOR WHAT IT WAS, AND THE CAREER CIVIL SERVANTS WHO WERE BRAVE ENOUGH TO SPEAK UP, BECAUSE THEY DID EVERYTHING TO STOP THIS POLICY FROM HAPPENING, AND PREVENTED IT FROM BEING FAR WORSE, AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IF NOT MILLIONS CAME OUT IN A BIPARTISAN FASHION, AND THE POPE SPOKE OUT AS WE ARE REMINDED IN THIS FILM, TO STOP A POLICY THAT THE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT TRUMP, HIMSELF, HE STOPPED IT BECAUSE OF THE SIGHT OF PEOPLE BEING SEPARATED, AND BECAUSE OF NEWS MEDIA AND PEOPLE IN THE STREET.
SO WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHO ENDED THIS POLICY, AND KEEP THOSE VOICES IN MIND GOING FORWARD.
>> THANK YOU, JACOB SOBOROFF AND ERROL MORRIS, YOUR NEW BOOK OUT NOW.
>>> AND ALSO COMING UP IS THE ISRAEL WAR IN GAZA.
PALESTINIAN FAMILIES ARE SUING THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT TO SUSPEND U.S.-AVOIDED SERVICES ACCORDING TO THE "DEMOCRACY FOR THE WORLD NOW."
CIVILIANS ARE CONTINUING TO FACE WIDESPREAD HUNGER AND DISEASE AS WELL NOW.
AND NOW, A NEW INVESTIGATION SPEAKING TO THE IDF WHISTLE-BLOWERS ALLEGING ARBITRARY KILLINGS, AND OTHER KILLINGS INSIDE OF THE CORRIDOR.
WE HAVE NOT INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIED THIS.
BUT WE ARE TOLD THAT OMER BARTOV IS CONSULTING AND BACK FROM HIS OWN FACT-FINDING MISSION, AND HE IS A PROFESSOR AT CAMBRIDGE.
PROFESSOR BARTOV, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU.
>> WE SPOKE TO YOU WHEN THIS GENOCIDE WAS BEGINNING TO BUBBLE UP, AND YOU HAD A CLEAR DESCRIPTION THEN THAT IT HAD NOT REACHED THE LEVEL, AND I WILL ASK YOU AGAIN LATER IN THE INTERVIEW, BUT FIRST, I WANT TO ASK YOU, WHAT DID YOU FIND THIS TRIP IN ISRAEL, BECAUSE IT WAS A WHILE SINCE YOU HAD BEEN THERE, AND I WONDER HOW THE WAR IS BEGINNING TO PERCOLATE, AND BE TAKEN, YOU KNOW, SORT OF ABSORBED BY PEOPLE THERE.
>> YES, I WENT TO ISRAEL FOR THE FIRST TIME WHEN THE WORLD WAR BROKE OUT IN JUNE, AND I WENT AGAIN, AND I CAME BACK THIS MORNING.
I WOULD SAY THAT THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT IN WHEN I WAS THERE IN JUP, THERE WAS HUGE RELUCTANCE TO EVEN HAVE GAZA MENTIONED.
EVERYTHING GOING GAZA, GOING ON IN GAZA, WHEN YOU SPOKE TO THEM, THEIR EYES GLAZED OVER, AND THEY WANTED TO CHANGE THE TOPIC.
AND NOW, I THINK THAT THERE IS MORE AWARENESS OF THE TREMENDOUS DEVASTATION THAT HAS GONE ON THERE, BUT IT DOES NOT SEEM APART FROM SOME VERY LIMITED GROUPS, IT DOES NOT SEEM TO HAVE ANY EFFECT HOW PEOPLE RESPOND TO THAT.
AND SO, AS IT SEEMS, THE KNOWLEDGE HAS PERCOLATED AND THERE HAVE BEEN REPORTS OF THE ISRAELI PRESS, AND NOT ON TV, BUT IN THE PRESS, BUT THE PEOPLE ARE STILL IN A KIND OF STATE OF SHOCK AND MOURNING FROM OCTOBER 7th WHICH IS STILL RECYCLED OVER AND OVER AGAIN EVERY DAY, THE HAMAS MASSACRE ON THE ISRAELI MEDIA, AND WHAT IS BEING DONE IN THEIR OWN NAME IN GAZA.
>> SO, OBVIOUSLY, THE HAMAS MASSACRE WAS A TRAUMATIC EFFECT, AND, YOU KNOW, THE WAR CRIMES WERE COMMITTED ON THAT DAY.
AND SO, MANY SAY THAT CERTAINLY SOLDIERS THAT THIS WAS A JUST WAR TO GO INTO GAZA, AND TRY TO, TRY TO GET RID OF HAMAS.
I WONDER WHETHER THAT IS STILL THE CASE OF SOME OF THE SOLDIERS THAT YOU SPEAK TO, AND OTHERS AS WELL, BECAUSE IN THIS REPORT, ONE SOLDIER SAYING THAT THIS IS A JUST WAR, BUT PEOPLE NOW NEED TO KNOW WHAT WAR LOOKS LIKE WITH SERIOUS ACTS AND SOME COMMANDERS ARE COMMITTING INSIDE OF GAZA, AND THEY HAVE TO KNOW THE INHUMAN SCENES THAT PEOPLE ARE WITNESSING, AND WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT SOLDIERS AND WHAT YOU ARE ARE SEEING?
>> WHAT YOU ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW, IS GAZA AND THE WAR, AND I WANT TO SPEAK ABOUT THE WAR, AND THERE IS NO ORGANIZED RESISTANCE NOW OF THE IDEA BEING IN FULL CONTROL OF GAZA, AND OBVIOUSLY SOME GUERRILLA UNITS HERE AND THERE THAT MAY FIRE UP AND FIRE A ROCKET AT A TANK, AND IF THEY ARE LUCKY THEY MAY KILL A SOLDIER, BUT THE IDEA IS TO DESTROYING GAZA.
AND THE SOLDIERS THAT I HEAR ABOUT, AND THOSE VI HEARD REPORTS ABOUT, ONE THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT MANY OF THEM, WHEN THEY COME OUT, MOSTLY RESERVE SOLDIERS MANY OF THEM REGARDLESS OF THEIR OPINION, THEY SAY IT IS ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE, AND THEY HAVE NOT SEEN OR COULD HAVE IMAGINED THE DEVASTATION, AND PEOPLE LOOK AT THE IMAGERY, AND SAY IT LOOKS LIKE WHAT RUSSIA MIGHT OR GERMANY AT THE END OF WORLD WAR II, BECAUSE THE WHOLE AREA IS COMPLETELY DESTROYED.
THERE ARE ARE HORRIFIC ACCOUNTS BODIES ROTTING, AND BEING EATEN BY DOGS, AND SOLDIERS MAY STILL THINK THAT THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR A JUST CAUSE, BUT THE POINT OF IT IS THAT THERE IS NO REAL RESISTANCE ANYMORE, AND THE QUESTION IS WHAT THIS WAR IS ABOUT, AND WHAT IS IT TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH, AND ON THE GROUND WHAT YOU ARE SEEING IS THAT IT IS ACTUALLY A WAR OF ANNIHILATION OF THE ENTIRE GAZA STRIP WITH A PARTICULAR FOCUS ON THE NORTHERN PART OF IT NORTH OF THE SO-CALLED NETZERAIN CORRIDOR, AND ALSO THE PHILADELPHIA CORRIDOR WHICH IS EXPANDING CONSTANTLY INTO RAFAH AND DESTROYING IT.
AND THE POPULATION IS BEING RUN AROUND FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER TO SO-CALLED SAFE ZONES WHICH ARE THEN BEING BOMBED AND SHELLED BY THE IDF, AND SO THIS IS THE REALITY ON THE GROUND.
>> THE HORETZ REPORT WHICH WE CANNOT VERIFY INDEPENDENTLY, SAYS THAT THE LARGE SWATHES AROUND THAT CORRIDOR HAVE BEEN TAKEN, AND THAT THERE ARE LARGE-SCALE KILLINGS, THEIR WORDS, AND THAT THERE ARE CIVILIAN CHILDREN TO BE TAKEN, AND TAND WITH NUMEROUS STEPS TAKEN OUT TO MINIMIZE HARM TO MINIMIZE THE PEOPLE KILLED, AND WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT WHEN THE PRESS ASKS THE IDF TO RESPOND TO SPECIFICS?
>> WELL, LOOK, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY I DON'T HAVE ALL OF THE FACTS EITHER.
AND MOSTLY, THERE IS REPORTS OF THOSE FROM AL JAZEERA BEING SHOT, AND THERE ARE OTHER REPORTS OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH COMPILING AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF DATA SHOWING WHAT THE ACTUAL POLICY OF THE IDF IS.
IN THIS REPORT IN HARWITZ SHOWING WHAT THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED.
THE REPORTS HAVE A POLICY OF REPEATING THE KIND OF THE STANDARD ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CONDUCT OF THE SOLDIERS THAT RARE TO MY MIND NT TO BE BELIEVED.
JUST AS THEY SAY THEY WILL INVESTIGATE THIS OR THAT INCIDENT, AND WE NEVER HEAR MORE ABOUT THAT INVESTIGATION, AND THEY HAVE LAWYERS ACCOMPANYING THEM WHERE THEY GO, BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE LAWYERS ARE NOT THERE TO STOP ILLEGAL ACTS, BUT TO COVER THEM UP.
AND SO WITH THE NUMBERS OF THEM LOST OR KILLED SO HIGH, AND COMING CLOSE TO 50,000, WITH ANOTHER 10,000 PRESUMED KILLED UNDER THE RUBBLE WITH OVER 100,000 WOUNDED, AND ANOTHER 10,000 WHO DIED BECAUSE OF WOUNDS AND PEOPLE WHO CANNOT GET CHRONIC HEALTH PROBLEMS, YOU CAN TAKE THAT NUMBER AT FACE VALUE.
>> AND SO NOW, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER WHO HAS MADE A BIG SPLASH WHEN HE MADE HIS VIEWS OUTFRONT WHEN HE USED THE TERMS LIKE ETHNIC CLEANSING, AND WAR CRIMES, AND YOU MANY MET HIM GOING BACK A LONG, LONG TIME, AND YOU ARE AN ALONGSIDE HIM, AND I ASSUME THAT YOU TALKED TO HIM ABOUT ALL OF THIS, AND DOES HE STILL STICK BY WHAT HE SAID?
>>.
>> YES.
FIRST POFT ALL, HE SPOKE AT A TV INTERVIEW, AND HE SAID, LOOK, WHAT IS GOING ON IN NORTHERN GAZA, IS THAT THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OR -- AND THE REPORTER WAS SHOCKED AND SHE SAID, DID YOU ACTUALLY SAY "ETHNIC CLEANSING" AND IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID IS GOING ON THERE, AND HE SAID, "YES."
IT IS SHOCKING BUT IN 1994 WE WERE IN THE SAME PLATOON IN OFFICER SCHOOL, AND HE BECAME CHIEF OF STAFF AND I DID NOT.
I WROTE HIM AND I SAID, I COMPLETELY APPRECIATED WHAT HE SAID, AND THEN AND WHEN WE MET IN ISRAEL, HE SAID, YES, THIS IS WHAT IS GOING ON, AND I KNOW THIS, BECAUSE OFFICERS HAVE CONTACTED ME ON THE GROUND TO SPEAK ABOUT IT, AND SAY WHAT IS GOING ON THERE.
THE EXTRAORDINARY THING IS THAT, HE, ALONE, THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE BECAME VERY RIGHT WING, AND MUCH MORE THAN WHEN I NUMB AND DESPITE AND PEOPLE SAYING THAT HE IS CRAZY AND OUT OF HIS MIND, BUT ALSO BY THE OPPOSITION WHO SAY, THIS CANNOT BE.
SO, THERE IS A STRONG SENSE IN ISRAEL ACROSS THE BOARD THAT, YES, MAYBE SOME THINGS ARE NOT GOING WELL, AND THERE IS SOME DISCIPLINE ISSUES IN THE ARMY, BUT ACROSS THE BOARD MOST OF THE PEOPLE FIGHTING FOR ISRAEL, THEY CANNOT BE INVOLVED IN THIS SYSTEMIC AND UNFORTUNATELY, THE.
>> AND SO YOU HAVE JUST USED THE WORD GENOCIDE.
WHAT HAS MADE YOU CHANGE YOUR TERMINOLOGY SINCE EARLIER IN THE WAR?
>> WELL, WHAT HAPPENS IS EARLY MAY 2024.
THE IDF DECIDED TO MOVE INTO RAFAH, THE SOUTHERNMOST CITY IN GAZA STRIP DESPITE THE U.S.
TELLING HIM NOT TO DO SO, BECAUSE THERE WERE ABOUT A MILLION DISPLACED CIVILIANS THERE DISPLACED BECAUSE THE IDF WERE TOLD RMT AND TO MOVE THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS ONE MORE TIME.
>> AND TO MOVE TO THE BEACH AREA WITHOUT ANY INFRASFLSH AND THEN AND SO AT THAT POINT, I START E AND SO THE STATEMENTS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR, WHICH YOU RECALL WERE GENOCIDE ALAL AND IU LOOK AT THE POPULATION MOVING AROUND, AND EVERY ZONE TENDS TO BE ALSO BOMBED AND SHELL AND ATTACKED FROM THE AIR, BUT ALSO SYSTEMATICALLY DESTROYING UNIVERSITIES, SCHOOLS, MOSQUES, MUSEUMS -- ANYTHING THAT MAKES, AND HOSPITALS OF COURSE, ANYTHING THAT MAKES FOR THE HEALTH AND ALSO THE CULTURE THAT HAS BEEN COMPLETELY DEBILITATED WITH THOSE WHO WERE ALIVE SUFFERING FROM THE SKIN DI SEEDS AND TAND THEY HAVE SUFFERED FRO NOT ENOUGH SUPPLIES COMING IN AN AND THE HOPE OF THOSE WHO SURVIVE WITH THE POLICY OF THE ISRAELI POLICY MAKERS WHO ARE RIGHT WING, THERE IS A CAUSE FOR THE HUMANITARIAN AID FOR THOSE PEOPLE TO REMOVE THEM FROM THAT AREA WHICH THEY CANNOT LIVE IN TO OTHER PLACES, AND THEREFORE.
>> WE HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT, AND IT IS QUITE SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE BEEN SAYING JUST NOW.
WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR WORDS ARE GOING TO LAND?
WHAT RECEPTION FOR INSTANCE IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE IT IS SUCH A POLARIZED CONVERSATION?
>> WELL, I MEAN, IT IS REALLY HARD TO SAY.
I HAVE TO SAY THAT I AM GLAD TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THAT WITH YOU.
I THINK THAT THIS WORD HAS TO COME OUT, AND PEOPLE HAVE TO KNOW, THAT THERE IS A RESPONSE IN ISRAEL, AND IN THE UNITED STATES, AND SUCH MAKES THAT I MAKE ARE NOT OBVIOUS LY ANLY AN THAT PEOPLE WILL KNOW THAT ISRAEL CANNOT CONTINUE WITHOUT IMPUNITY AS THE UNITED STATES IS CONTINUING TO CARRY OUT WHAT IT HAS.
>> THANK YOU, PROFESSOR BARTOV.
>>> AND NOW, A CONVERSATION WITH THE NOBEL PRIZE WINNING AUTHOR PAUL KRUGMAN WHO HAS A SHARP TAKE ON THE ISSUES THAT SHAPE AMERICA AND THE WORLD.
HE SAYS THAT HE IS SEEING AN EMOTION OF OPTIMISM, AND THE CAUSE IS COLLAPSING THE TRUST AND ELITES IN INSTITUTIONS.
HE IS JOINING ME, MICHEL MARTIN WITH A NATE FASCINATING LOOK.
>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
PAUL, CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR RETIREMENT.
>> I HAVE NOT RETIRED FROM THE WORLD, BUT VI T I HAVE RETIRED THE "TIMES" AND I HAVE A NEWSLETTER UP AND RUNNING, AND I BELIEVE THERE IS GOING TO BE PLENTY TO WRITE ABOUT IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS.
>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN FROM GLOBAL POLITIC, AND THE FINANCIAL CRISIS, AND WHAT DO YOU FIND TO WRITE ABOUT?
>> IT IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO PEOPLE'S MINDS WHERE I THINK THAT I CAN FIND SOME VALUE.
AND OCCASIONALLY, THERE IS A PERIOD IN THE IRAQ WAR WHICH IS NOT SOMETHING THAT I EXPECTED TO DO IN THE IRAQ WAR AND NOBODY WAS SAYING THE OBVIOUS WHICH IS THAT THIS IS A VERY, VERY DUBIOUS CAUSE FOR WAR, AND I FELT THAT I NEEDED TO SAY THAT.
BUT FOR THE MOST PART, IT IS WHATEVER CAME UP.
WHEN THE FINANCIAL CRISIS CAME IP, AS HORRIBLE AS IT WAS, IT WAS A GREAT TIME IN MY LIFE, BECAUSE IT WAS A PERFECT CON VE IN A WAY, PEOPLE LIKE ME HAD BEEN WARNING THAT IT COULD HAPPEN, AND THEN ON THE AIR SAYING THAT IT COULD HAPPEN, AND THEN HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT IT COULD HAPPEN IN JARGON IN 800-WORD JUNKETS.
>> AND YOU GO THROUGH ALL OF THE CONS OF HOW TRUMP COULD WRECK THE ECONOMY, AND FOR THE LAST FEW LINES FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT READ IT, AND THIS IS NOT A SPOILER ALERT.
THE LAST LINE, PROSE, I CAN'T THINK OF ANY.
AND I WONDER IF THERE IS A FEELING OF THE I COULD HAVE BEEN MORE PERSUASIVE.
>> I THINK THAT I'M REALISTIC ABOUT IT.
"THE TIMES" HAS IMMENSE READERSHIP, AND IT REACHES LESS THAN 1% OF THE POPULATION, AND PEOPLE'S BELIEVES ON MANY SUBJECTS ARE JUST NOT MOVABLE REGARDLESS OF HOW GOOD YOUR ARGUMENT IS.
I LEARNED THAT A LONG TIME AGO BEFORE I EVEN WROTE FOR THE "TIMES."
AND WHEN WE HAD A DEBATE OVER THE SECURITY PRIVATIZATION, AND THAT WAS GEORGE W. BUSH HAVING WON THE ELECTION THOUGHT HE HAD A MANDATE TO PRIVATIZE SOCIAL SECURITY, AND I WAS PART OF THE GROUP THAT SAID IT IS A REALLY, REALLY BAD IDEA, AND I WAS SHOCKED WHEN IT FAILED, BECAUSE IT WAS THE FIRST POLICY SIDE WHEN MY SIDE WON.
>> YOU HAVE BEEN CRITICAL EQUALLY OF THE DEMOCRATIC/PROGRESSIVE SIDE WHEN YOU FELT THEY WERE ILL, IN SOME SORT OF WAY, AND SO, WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA LEFT OFFICE AND I WAS TEARING MY HAIR OUT OF THE STIMULUS PLANS, AND EVEN PARTICIPATED IN MEETINGS WITH GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, AND THEY DIDN'T DO IT.
SO, NO, IT HURTS MUCH MORE WHEN YOU WERE, YOU KNOW, I HAVE NO ILLUSION THAT ANYTHING THAT I WRITE IS EVER GOING TO PERSUADE DONALD TRUMP OF SOMETHING, BUT WHEN YOU FAIL TO PERSUADE BARACK OBAMA, IT HURTS MORE.
>> SO LET ME GO BACK TO WHEN YOU WROTE YOUR FINAL COLUMN FOR THE "TIMES" YOU LOOK BACK TO THE FIRST COLUMN, AND YOU LOOK AT THE OPTIMISM OF THE EARLY 2000s AND CONTRAST IT WITH TODAY'S RESENTMENT AND ANGER.
AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT READ IT, WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED?
>> I THINK THAT A LARGE PART OF IT IS THAT THE PEOPLE, AND THE INSTITUTIONS THAT WE LOOKED UP TO JUST KEPT FAILING US.
IN 2000 IF IF TOP PEOPLE IN THE NATIONAL SECURITY SPHERE TOLD US THAT ANOTHER COUNTRY HAD WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, THE IDEA THAT THEY MIGHT NOT BE LEVELING WITH US, AND THEY MIGHT BE TAKING US TO WAR UNDER FALSE PRETENSE PRETENSES FOR WHICH I DID RECEIVE PUSHBACK, AND SO PEOPLE WERE NOT BELIEVING IT, AND PEOPLE WERE RUNNING TO THE FINANCIAL REGULATORS, AND THE BANKS THEMSELVES COULD BE AND PEOPLE WERE BASICALLY RUNNING SCAMS, DOWN THE LINE.
I TALK IN THE COLUMN THAT I AM HAVING AN INTERNATIONAL FOCUS, AND I SPEND A LOT OF TIME IN EUROPE, AND A LOT OF THE EUROPEANS, AND THE CREATION OF THE EURO WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A WONDERFUL EVENT.
IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BRING EUROPE TOGETHER, AND IN THE MEAN, IT WAS AND AND THIS IS ALL OF THE GREAT AND THE GOOD, AND WE ARE TELLING THE EUROPEANS THAT WE HAVE A GREAT IDEA, AND TRUST US.
SO IT IS ACCUMULATION, AND I THINK THAT IT IS ALSO, AND SOMETHING THAT I SHOULD HAVE SAID IN THE COLUMN IS THE FACT THAT NOBODY SEEMED EVER TO HAVE PAID A PRICE.
YOU KNOW, THAT IN THE 30 AND WITH IRAQ, THERE WERE ARGUMENTS THAT PEOPLE SAID AT VERY LEAST, THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE LED A PRICE FOR LEADING US INTO WAR, AND NOBODY DID, BUT THAT DOES LEAD INTO THE WAR THAT THIS NOT WANTING TO TRUST THEM.
>> AND IS THIS BECAUSE PEOPLE USED TO LOOK AT THE VIETNAM WAR, AND THAT WAS A VERY FRACTIOUS PART OF THE WAR, AND TARGETING IN THE STREETS, AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF PROPERTY DAMAGE WITH PEOPLE FURIOUS LASHING OUT, AND THE VIETNAM WAR, AND IT BECAME VERY AND FALSE CONNECTION THAT YOU THINK AND SO SINCE THE 2000s, WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO CLAW OUT, AND I AM CURIOUS WONDERING WHY YOU THINK THAT WE WOULD?
>> WELL, IF PEOPLE WERE ABLE TO GET OUT THAT ELITES WERE AS WILLING, IF NOT EXACTLY AND THAT PEOPLE HAD A DEMOCRATIC PROCESS TO WORK.
I MEAN, WHY IN THE GUILDED AGE DID THE BOONACATS TRY TO SUBVERT THE ELECTION, AND I'M NOT SURE WHY THE POWERFUL DIDN'T TRY TO AVERT IN THE PAST.
FOR EXAMPLE, WATERGATE WOULD BARELY RECOGNIZE AS A SCANDAL THESE DAYS.
I AM NOT QUITE SURE.
>> YOU WROTE THAT IMPERIALISM, AND SABER RATTLING WERE OUT OF STYLE IN 2000, BUT TODAY, NATIONALISM IS SURGING GLOBALLY, AND DO YOU THINK THAT IT IS MEN AND SO WHAT WE DID HAVE IS WHAT THESE ELITES THAT WE TRUSTED DID HAVE, ESPECIALLY AT THE U.S.
ETHICAL DID IS THAT WE WERE A BENEVOLENT BENEVOLENT COUNTRY.
AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT THE UNITED STATES TOLERATED AND FOR COUNTRIES THAT WERE EFFECTIVELY IMPERIAL POWER, AND THE UNITED STATES BEHAVED INCREDIBLY WELL FOR MANY DECADES, AND NOW WE HAVE SOMEHOW LOST RELATIVE POWER, AND WE HAVE BASICALLY LOST OUR OWN SENSE OF BENEVOLENCE, AND SO STUFF BREAKS OUT.
AND SO, WE HAVE, THE WAR IN UKRAINE, A MASSIVE CONVENTIONAL WAR DESPITE THE TECHNOLOGY MIMICS WORLD WAR , AND IN LOOKING BACK AT THE DISCIPLINES, THERE IT IS.
>> IN 1990, YOU WROTE A GROUND-BREAKING PAPER ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WITH A STRUGGLING ECONOMY WHEN THEAND SO WE HAVE CHANGED THE NATIONAL ECONOMY, AND WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?
>> WELL, THIS IS THE POPULAR OPINION THAT WILL BECOME POPULAR IN A FEW DECADES, AND THAT IS THAT BIDEN AND THE TEAM HAVE HANDLED THE ECONOMY QUITE WELL.
THAT IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE LEARNED FROMED AND THEY WENT SOFT ON THE ECONOMY IN 2009, ANDs A AND AS A RESULT, IT TOOK A LONG TIME.
SO THEY HAD ONE SHOT.
AND THEY TEMPORARILY RAISED THE INFLATION, AND THAT IS THE CUMULATIVE RECESSION TO THE WHOLE REST OF THE WORLD, BUT THEY DID.
>> BUILDING BACK BETTER WAS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
THERE WERE MANY THINGS THAT WENT RIGHT BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THE RAZOR THIN MAJORITY IN CONGRESS SAID THAT WE HAVE A CRISIS, AND WE ARE GOING TO THROW A LOT OF MONEY AT IT, BECAUSE IT IS OUR ONCE CHANCE, AND IN RETROSPECT, IT WORKED, AND IT WORKED IN EVERY RESPECT EXCEPT FOR POLITICS.
>> WHY IS THAT?
>> AND SO THE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORTED TRUMP, IT WAS BY LARGE MARGINS, AND IT DID NOT FILTER THROUGH.
SO IT WAS LESS CONTEMPTUOUS, AND THAT CAME OUT TO TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE, WHICH I TRY TO AVOID DOING, BUT WE KNOW THAT, THIS SS AND SO IF PRICES GO UP, AND WE ALSO GO UP, PEOPLE THEY WE FEEL AS WAGE PRICE SPIRALS AS RELATED TO THEM.
BUT WE HAD A SHOCKING, FAIRLY BRIEF PERIOD OF ELEVATED INFLATION, WHICH WAS BUT PEOPLE FELT ANGRY.
PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, IF WE JUDGE BY CONSUMER SPENDING, PEOPLE WERE DOING OKAY.
THEY ACTUALLY INCOMES WERE ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION, AND UP, AND PEOPLE JUST NOW TRAVELING SEEMS LIKE EVERYBODY IN AMERICA HAS BOUGHT AN AIRPLANE TICKET LATELY, AND SO, THE OBJECTIVE MEASURES OF CONSUMER HEALTH ARE FINE, BUT PEOPLE FEEL THAT THEY MAY BE PERSONALLY DOING OKAY, BUT IT IS THANKS TO THEIR EFFORTS.
AND THE GOVERNMENT, WHOEVER IS IN POWER, IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FACT THAT THINGS COST AND TRY TO FIND YOURSELF A THIRD WORLTD DEFEAT, AND GOING DOWN THE LIST, AND YOU CAN SEE THAT IT IS ALL THE SAME THING SINCE EVERYBODY FACED THIS BURST OF INFLATION, YOU WOULD THINK THAT PEOPLE WOULD LOOK AROUND AND SAY, WELL, IT CAN'T REALLY BE THIS GOVERNMENT'S FAULT IF THE SAME THING IS HAPPENING IN EVERY COUNTRY AROUND THE WORLD.
BUT MOST PEOPLE DON'T LOOK AT IT THAT WAY.
>> THEY DON'T LOOK AT IT THAT WAY, AND SO IS THERE ONE PIECE OR TWO AT THE TIMES THAT YOU ARE PARTICULARLY PROUD.
>> AND SO I WROTE A 2005 PIECE SAYING "THIS SURE AS HELL LOOKS LIKE A HOUSING BUBBLE.
IT IS GOING TO BE UGLY."
I TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT.
I WROTE IN EARLY 2009 THAT OBAMA WOULD COME TO GRIEF BECAUSE HIS STIMULUS WAS TOO SMALL, AND HE WOULDN'T GET A SECOND CHANCE.
MAYBE ACTUALLY THERE WAS ONE, MOSTLY FOR THE TURN OF PHRASE, BUT I WAS MOSTLY TALKING ABOUT EUROPE OF PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT YOU SHOULD SLASH AND THAT WOULD WORK, BECAUSE IT WOULD AND SO YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE SUCCEEDED TO TURN A PHRASE THAT YOU USE WHY USE THE INNOVATION WHEN YOU CAN USE THE CONFIDENCE.
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
>> IS THERE SOMETHING THAT YOU FEEL THAT YOU CAN HOLD TO PULL PEOPLE TO BETTER GOVERNANCE?
>> WELL, I AM SELECTIVE, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, SOME PEOPLE HAVE HELD ON TO POWER FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME, AND I MEAN, I DO LOOK AT OTHER COUNTRIES, AND WE HAD AND RM AND SO, THAT WAS THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, BUT IT IS STILL TENUOUS, AND IF YOU BELIEVE THE OPINION POLLING, AND A LOT OF THE OPINION POLLING OF FEAR IS HUNGRY.
IT IS DEMOCRACY ON PAPER, BUT WHERE THINGS ARE SO HEAVILY RIGGED, THE SEATING PARTY LOSES POWER, BUT IF CURRENT POLLING HOLDS, AND GOD KNOWS, BUT WITH THE RIGGING, AND IF AND IT TAKES A WHILE, AND THERE IS ALWAYS EXCUSES, BUT AS LONG AS THERE IS -- THERE'S ALWAYS HOPE.
I HAVE BEEN IN THIS BUSINESS FOR A LONG TIME.
AND I HAVE SEEN VARIOUS KINDS OF FREEDOM REVOLUTIONS HAPPENING IN SOME COUNTRIES, AND THEN YOU WILL HAVE A POPULAR OUTRAGE AND THEN YOU MEET THE OLD BOSS IS THE SAME AS THE NEW BOSS, AND IT GOES BAD, BUT SOMETIMES IT GOES FORWARD AND IT GOES RIGHT.
>> PAUL KRUGMAN, THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> AND FINALLY, JUSTICE FOR GISELE PELICOT.
IT IS A TRIAL THAT CAUGHT THE WORLD IN FRANCE AND IT IS HER HUSBAND FOR SYSTEMATICALLY DRUGGING AND RAPING HER FOR NEARLY A DECADE.
50 OTHER DEFENDANTS WERE CONVICTED FOR JOINING HER HUSBAND RING.
SHE HAS BECOME A HERO FOR WAVING HER ANONYMITY, AND COURAGEOUSLY REVEALING WHAT HAPPENED TO HER IN PUBLIC.
THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.
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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.