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>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> THEY WILL ABANDON YOU WHEN THERE IS NO LIFE, AND JUST KEEP THE THINGS THAT ONLY REQUIRE YOU.
THE BOOK OF POEMS THAT ONLY YOU CAN DECIPHER.
>> MORE POETRY AMID THE HORROR AND HOW THE PALESTINIAN WRITER HARVESTED HIS ACCLAIMED WORK WHILE ISRAEL HAD ITS DEVASTATING CLAIM ON GAZA.
>> IT EXPLORED THE VIOLENCE THAT WE CAN HAVE AGAINST OURSELVES, AND THE HARSH CRITICISM AND DESPAIR.
>> AND DEMI MOORE OF BAGGING THE BEST REVIEWS OF HER CAREER ON "THE SUBSTANCE" AND SHE SAYS WHY PUSHING THE ENVELOPE WITH THIS BODY HORROR WAS WORTH IT.
> >> AND TRANSFERRING IT TO THE SPY.
>> AND MICHEL MARTIN TALKS TO RONAN FARROW ABOUT THE SPYWARE THAT COULD BE TRACKING YOUR EVERY MOVE.
> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
THE ISRAELI FORCES HAVE TAKEN BACK TWO CITIES FROM THE IRAN-BACKED FORCES AND THEY WILL BE PRESSING ON DAMASCUS, THE CAPITAL THEY SAY, WHILE ACROSS THE BORDER, IT IS FIRE ON ALL SIDES, AND THE FLIMSY CEASE- FIRE IS HOLDING DESPITE BOTH SIDES IS ALLEGING THE OTHER IS VIOLATING THE TERMS.
AND ISRAEL IS KEEPING UP THE SEEMINGLY ENDLESS ASSAULT AND BOMBARDMENT ON GAZA.
THIS WEEK, GAZAN AUTHORITIES SAY THAT 47 MORE PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN AIR STRIKES INCLUDING SIX PEOPLE.
AND ISRAEL SAYS IT WAS TARGETING HAMAS MILITANTS.
AND PERHAPS THE RAWEST IS COMING FROM NOT AID ORGANIZATION AND REPORTERS BUT FROM WRITERS LIKE PALESTINIAN POET MOSAB WHO WAS FORCED THE FLEE A YEAR AGO AND SINCE THEN, HE AND HIS WIFE HAVE LOST MORE THAN 100 FAMILY MEMBERS TO THE VIOLENCE.
AND WATCHING FROM AFAR, MOSAB ABU TOHA JOINED ME TO TALK ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK "FORREST OF NOISE" WHICH IS RECEIVING CRITICAL ACCLAIM AND BRISK SALES.
THANK YOU FOR COMING TO OUR PROGRAM AND WELCOME.
>> THANK YOU.
>> WE INTERVIEWED IN GAZA TRYING TO GET OUT AND NOW YOU ARE IN THE UNITED STATES.
FIRST AND FOREMOST, I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR FAMILY, BECAUSE YOU HAD DOZENS HAD BEEN KILLED BY THE ISRAELI STRIKES, AND GIVE US A SENSE IF MORE HAD BEEN KILLED, AND DO YOU HAVE SENSE OF WHAT IS GOING ON WITH YOUR FAMILY IN GAZA?
>> WHEN I TALK ABOUT MY FAMILY, I TALK ABOUT MY PARENTS AND MY SISTERS AND BROTHERS AND THEIR CHILDREN AND ALSO MY WIFE'S FAMILY, BECAUSE THEY ARE DIVIDED BETWEEN NORTHERN GAZA AND SOUTHERN GAZA AND EVERY ONE OF THEM IS STRUGGLING DIFFERENTLY.
THE PEOPLE IN NORTHERN GAZA AND LIVING IN TENTS AFTER THEY LEFT THEIR HOUSES, AND SOME OF THEIR HOUSES WERE DESTROYED.
I HAVE A BROTHER-IN-LAW WHO WAS ABDUCTED WHILE HE WAS TRYING TO LEAVE NORTHERN GAZA WITH MY SISTER, AND WITH THEIR THREE CHILDREN.
WE DON'T HAVE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT HIM THAT HE WAS ABDUCTED ON OCTOBER, NOVEMBER 7th THIS YEAR, WHICH MEANS ABOUT FIVE WEEKS AGO.
OR EVEN LAST MONTH, SORRY.
WE DON'T HAVE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT HIM.
TODAY, I LOST A NEIGHBOR OF MINE.
A FEW DAYS AGO WE LEARNED THAT MY AUNT'S HUSBAND WAS FOUND KILLED IN THE STREET AFTER HE WENT MISSING FOR ABOUT THREE WEEKS, AND MY COUSIN WHEN HE WENT LOOKING FOR HIS FATHER, HE SAID THAT I THINK THAT I SAW YOUR FATHER ON STREET EIGHT, AND WHEN HE WENT THERE WHICH WAS A DANGEROUS THING TO DO, AND HE RISKED HIS LIFE TO DO, AND HE FOUND HIS FATHER'S HEAD IN THE STREET.
HIS FATHER WAS 81 YEARS OLD AND HE WAS KILLED BY AN ARTILLERY SHELL.
SO, MY FAMILY HAVE BEEN STRUGGLING VERY, VERY SEVERELY.
I TALKED TO AN AUNT OF MINE WHO IS LIVING IN A TENT IN KHAN YOUNIS, AND THE LAST TIME THEY HAD BREAD WAS TWO WEEKS AGO.
>> I MEAN, IT IS REALLY HONESTLY TERRIBLE, AND WE KNOW FROM THE INTERNATIONAL AID ORGANIZATIONS WHO DEFINITELY CANNOT GET INTO NORTHERN GAZA HOW DESPERATE THE SITUATION IS THERE AND OTHER AREAS, AND STARVATION AGAIN IS RAISING ITS TERRIBLE HEAD, AND THAT ALL OF THE ATTACKS AS YOU SAY, YOU CAME FROM BADLER HERE THAT IS UNDER ATTACK AGAIN AND OTHERS AND THE ISRAELIS ARE TELLING PEOPLE TO LEAVE, AND THEN WE HEAR REPORTS WHEN THEY DO LEAVE, THEY ARE FIRING ON THE PEOPLE WHO ARE FLEEING.
WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT?
DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT FROM THE PEOPLE YOU ARE TALKING TO THERE?
>> OF COURSE.
OF COURSE, I YESTERDAY POSTED SOME VIDEOS AND PICTURES FROM MY INSTAGRAM, AND ON MY OTHER SOCIAL MEDIA.
AND SO, PEOPLE, THERE IS A SCHOOL IN AN AREA THAT HAD A SCHOOL WHERE PEOPLE WERE STAYING IN.
THEY TRIED NOT TO LEAVE THAT AREA, THEY ARE NOT GOING BACK.
THAT IS WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING.
AND WE SEE IT ON THE ISRAELI MEDIA THAT SETTLERS ARE GOING TO GAZA TO DIFFERENT AREAS WITH THE SETTLEMENTS THAT THEY ARE GOING TO.
AND PEOPLE KNOW THAT IF THEY LEAVE THERE, THEY ARE NOT GOING BACK.
SO THE PEOPLE TRY TO REMAIN THERE, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, ISRAEL KEEPS JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH THE HOSPITAL, THEY DROPPED SOME GRENADES FROM THE QUAD COPTERS AND BOMBED CLASSROOMS AND HOSPITAL ROOMS IN THE PAST FEW DAYS AND FEW WEEKS EVEN.
PEOPLE TRIED TO REMAIN, BUT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO STAY.
SO YESTERDAY, THE ISRAELI ARMY BROKE INTO THE SCHOOL, AND EXPELLED ALL OF THE PEOPLE FROM THE SCHOOL.
WE SAW THE MARCHES OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING FROM THAT CITY TO THE ISRAELI CHECKPOINT WHICH IS NEAR THE INDONESIAN HOSPITAL, AND THIS IS WHERE THEY USUALLY LET THE WOMEN AND THE CHILDREN WHO ARE YOUNGER THAN 15 TO PROCEED, BUT THEY KEEP THEM IN.
THAT'S WHERE THEY ABDUCTED MY BROTHER-IN-LAW, AND THAT'S WHERE THEY ABDUCTED MY WIFE'S COUSIN, SAYED, WHO WAS THE ONLY SURVIVOR OF HIS FAMILY KILLED ON OCTOBER 26th THIS YEAR.
HE WAS IN HOSPITAL.
I WOULD LIKE TO TELL YOU HIS STORY.
SO I WAS THE ONLY SURVIVOR OF HIS FAMILY, AND HE HAD THE CLEARANCE FROM THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION TO BE TAKEN FROM THE HOSPITAL TO ANOTHER HOSPITAL IN GAZA CITY, BECAUSE IN THE HOSPITAL, THEY HAD EXPELLED ALL OF THE DOCTORS AND THE NURSES AND EVEN THE CLEANER, AND SO HE WAITED FOR A FEW WEEKS BEFORE THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION MANAGED TO GET HIM A CLEARANCE TO GO FROM COMMAND ONE HOSPITAL TO THE HOSPITAL IN GAZA CITY.
AFTER HE ARRIVED AT THE CHECK POINT, HE HAD A RELATIVE OF HIS, THE UNCLE, WHO TOLD THUS STORY.
SO THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS OPENED UP THE AMBULANCE DOORS AND THEY SAID, WELCOME TO HAIB, AND WE WILL TREAT YOU LATER, AND THAT WAS NOVEMBER 10th, AND WHICH DON'T HAVE ANY INFORMATION SINCE THEN.
THAT IS THE CASE OF SO MANY OF MY FAMILY MEMBERS.
>> AND SO, THE PRIME MINISTER KEEPS SAYING THAT THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS AND THE ISRAELI POLITICS ARE ETHNICALLY CLEANSING NORTH GAZA, AND HE HAS TALKED ABOUT THE WAR CRIMES, AND THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THEMSELVES ARE SAYING THAT THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO FORCE THE POPULATION OF NORTHERN GAZA TO FLEE, BUT THEY ARE DOING WHATEVER THEY HAVE TO DO AGAINST HAMAS, AND THAT IS THE EVERYDAY REGULAR STORY THEY TELL.
AND I WANT TO PROCEED, BECAUSE WE KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE SAID, BUT PEOPLE WILL SEE WHAT THEY SEE ON SOCIAL MEDIA, AND I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU COPE FROM BEING AWAY AND HOW YOU HAVE MANAGED TO PUT A FACE OF HUMANITY AND FEELING INTO THE POETRY, AND IT SEEMS TO BE DOING INCREDIBLY WELL WITH AMERICAN READERS.
THE LATEST BOOK OF POETRY THAT YOU HAVE PUT OUT IS CALLED "FOREST OF NOISE" AND TELL ME ABOUT THE ROLE OF YOUR WORK IN THIS TIME.
>> AND YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, IT IS SOMETIMES HEARTBREAKING TO WRITE A POEM OF SOMETHING THAT YOU WITNESSED AND YOU SAW, AND YOU WRITE ABOUT A MASSACRE, THE WHEAT MASSACRE OF THIS YEAR, AND THE POEM OF THE TWO FATHERS KILLED IN JANUARY OF THIS YEAR WHILE THEY WERE TRYING TO GET SOME BREAD FOR THEIR KIDS, AND YOU WRITE A POEM ABOUT THAT, AND YOU SAY, OKAY, I TOLD THE WORLD ABOUT THIS STORY, AND I HOPE IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN, BUT WHEN EVERY DAY, I GO TO THE SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE LOCAL NEWS, AND I SEE THE SAME THING HAPPENING, AND FOR ME, THE POEM IS HAPPENING AGAIN.
IT IS DEVASTATING, BECAUSE WHEN WE WRITE LITERATURE, WE WRITE LITERATURE ABOUT THE THINGS THAT WE WERE TOLD ABOUT THAT WE LIVED AND NOW THE REALITY IS DIFFERENT NOW, BUT I AM WRITING THE POETRY ABOUT THE THINGS THAT KEEP HAPPENING, AND I FIND THINGS IN MY EAR, AND ESPECIALLY THE POEM "LOOKING FOR LAUGHTER" I WROTE ABOUT THE FAMILY, THE SIX PEOPLE FROM THE SAME FAMILY, THE FATHER, THE MOTHER AND THE FOUR CHILDREN, AND THE OLDEST WAS 10 YEARS OLD, AND THE FAMILY WHICH WAS KILLED IN MAY 2021.
LOOK AT HOW MANY, HOW MANY TIMES THIS POEM HAPPENED.
A WHOLE FAMILY WAS KILLED, AND JUST IMAGINE HOW MANY FAMILIES LIKE THIS WERE KILLED AND INCLUDING TWO FIRST COUSINS OF MINE.
AND MY FIRST COUSIN WITH HER CHILDREN.
AND I AM WRITING A POEM OF SOMETHING THAT NOT ONLY HAPPENED, BUT IT KEEPS HAPPENING, AND SOMETIMES I QUESTION IF WHAT I AM DOING IS REALLY PROTECTING PEOPLE BY TELLING THE STORIES ABOUT THEM.
AND WE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS NOT ONLY THROUGH POETRY, BUT THROUGH ESSAYS AND THROUGH THE MEDIA ENGAGEMENT, BUT, CHRISTIANE, IT IS VERY DEVASTATING THAT I AM READING A POEM, AND IT IS HAPPENING WHILE I AM READING IT.
>> I KNOW.
I KNOW THAT WHEN WE ARE READING IT, A LOT OF THE STORYTELLING IS COMING THROUGH A GROUP OF PALESTINIAN POETS, AND YOU ARE THE MOST RENOWNED AND YOURS SEEMS TO BE TO DOING THE BEST, BUT IT SEEMS TO BE REALLY INTERESTING HOW YOU ARE PUTTING YOUR FINGER ON THE PULSE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING TO YOUR PEOPLE.
COULD YOU READ FOR ME "NO ART. "
>> SURE.
>> "NO ART. "
THE ART OF LOSING IS IN A HEART.
ELIZABETH BISHOP.
YOU KNOW THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING TO COME TO AN END, THE SUGAR, THE TEA, AND THE DRIED FLOUR.
AND EVEN THE LIGHT WILL ABBON DON YOU, AND SO KEEP ONLY THE THINGS THAT REQUIRE YOU, THE BOOK OF POEMS THAT ONLY YOU CAN DECIPHER, THE BLANK MAP OF A COUNTRY WHOSE CITIES AND VILLAGES ONLY YOU CAN RECOGNIZE.
I HAVE PERSONALLY LOST THREE FRIENDS TO WAR, A CITY TO DARKNESS AND A LANGUAGE TO FEAR.
THIS WAS NOT EASY TO SURVIVE, BUT SURVIVAL PROVED NECESSARY TO MASTER, BUT TO ALL THINGS, LOSING THE ONLY PHOTO OF MY GRANDFATHER UNDER THE RUBBLE OF MY HOUSE WAS A REAL DISASTER.
>> IT REALLY DOES SPEAK OF SUCH LOSS.
YOU ALSO HAD FOUNDED A COUPLE OF LIBRARY BRANCHES.
YOU TAUGHT.
WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO ALL OF THAT AND TO THE UNIVERSITIES AND TO THE CULTURAL CENTERS THERE?
>> BEFORE I ANSWER, CHRISTIANE, THIS POEM WAS WRITTEN BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, AND THIS IS WHEN I SAID I LOST THREE FRIENDS TO WAR, AND IF THIS POEM WERE TO BE WRITTEN TODAY OR YESTERDAY, IT WOULD BE IN THE HUNDREDS.
I FOUNDED THE LIBRARY TO TRY AND BREAK SOME TYPE OF SIEGE THAT WAS IMPOSED ON GAZA AFTER 2007 BY BRINGING THE BOOKS FROM EUROPE, FROM AMERICA, SO THAT MY PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO TRAVEL AND SEE THE WOSHLD, --THE WORLD, THEY COULD SEE THE WORLD THROUGH THE EYES OF AUTHORS WHO HAVE BEEN TOURING THE WORLD FOR DECADES.
AND THIS WAS DESTROYED BY ISRAELI AIR STRIKES LIKE SO MUCH OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE.
ONE OF THE LIBRARIANS WAS KILLED WITH HER FATHER AND MOTHER AND SIBLINGS IN THE CITY NEAR GAZA CITY, AND I HAVE LOST CONNECTION WHERE THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE TEAM.
IT IS DIFFICULT TO GET IN TOUCH WITH ANYONE.
I PERSONALLY SOMETIMES SPEND AN HOUR TO TALK TO MY FATHER-IN-LAW OR MY BROTHER OR THE CHECK ON MY SISTER WHOSE HUSBAND WAS ABDUCTED.
SO ALL OF TO GAZA UNIVERSITIES HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.
MANY SCHOOLS, AND WE CAN SEE THIS, AND IT IS NOT PALESTINIANS WHO ARE COMMENTING THIS GENOCIDE, AND IT IS EVEN THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS DOCUMENTING THE BLOWING ING UP OF THE SCHOOLS AND THE PLACES WHERE THEY SHELTERED THEY BURN NOT ONLY THE SCHOOLS, BUT THE THINGS THEY WERE KEEPING, THE MATTRESSES AND THE BLANKETS AND THE CLOTHES.
SO IT IS DEVASTATING NOT ONLY ON A CULTURAL LEVEL, BUT HUMAN LEVEL.
THEY ARE NOT ONLY KILLING THE PEOPLE, BUT THE CITY.
THE CITY WHICH GAZA IS THE ONLY PLACE THAT I KNEW ALL OF MY LIFE.
IT IS MY HISTORY, AND IT IS MY PRESENT AND MY FUTURE.
SO I HAVE NOTHING TO RETURN TO, AND EVEN THE RUBBLE OF MY HOUSE HAS BEEN, IT IS EVEN BONLED.
ONE TIME AFTER OUR HOUSE WAS BOMBED OCTOBER 28th LAST YEAR, HOUSE GOT SOME ARTILLERY SHELLS AFTER IT WAS BOMBED, AND SO THEY ARE KILLING THE DEAD EVEN.
THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE ANYTHING.
>> MOSAB, AND YOU SAY THAT YOU HAVE NOTHING TO RETURN TO.
WOULD YOU RETURN IF THE WAR ENDED AND YOU ARE IN THE RELATIVE SAFETY OF UNITED STATES WRITING ABOUT THE HORRORS IN GAZA, YOUR HOMELAND, AND HOW IS THAT BEING RECEIVED?
THE BOOK SEEMS TO BE SELLING VERY, VERY WELL, YOUR POETRY?
>> YEAH, I MEAN, OF COURSE I WOULD LOVE TO GO TO GAZA NOW AFTER I FINISH THIS INTERVIEW, BUT THE FACT THAT ISRAEL OCCUPIED RAW -- RAFAH, THE BORDER CITY OF WHICH YOU CAN GO TO EGYPT AND THE OUTSIDE WORLD, AND ISRAEL HAS DIVIDED THE GAZA STRIP INTO THREE PART, SOUTHERN GAZA AND NORTHERN GAZA, AND NORTHERN IS DIVIDED INTO NORTHERN GAZA AND THE STRIP.
AND EVEN BEFORE THAT, ISRAEL HAD A SAY OF WHO WOULD ENTER GAZA AND WHO WOULD LEAVE, AND THEY DECIDED WITH THE EGYPTIANS WHEN TO OPEN AND CLOSE THE CITY.
AND SO THEY HAVE BEEN OCCUPYING OUR CITY, BECAUSE THEY SAID IN 2005, THEY LEFT, AND NO, THIS IS A BIG LIE.
GAZA REMAINED UNDER SIEGE.
NOW, WHY HAVE I NOT BEEN ABLE TO IN MY LIFE SAIL IN MY SEA AND OTHER PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SAIL IN OUR SEA AND SEE GAZA?
IS THIS NOT A GAZA SEA?
I AM 32 YEARS OLD AND I MENTIONED IT IN MY POEM, I HAVE NEVER SEEN AN AIRLINER IN THE SKY OF GAZA SKY.
AND NOT TO SAY THAT WE DON'T HAVE AN AIRPORT, BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN AN AIRLINER, AND THE ONLY TYPES WERE F-16s, AND HELICOPTERS AND DRONES, AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN AN AIRLINER, AND HOW DOES THE WORLD EXPECT US TO BE, AND HOW COME NOBODY HAS COME TO US, AND TALKED TO US ABOUT OUR LIVES, AND HOW MANY OFFICIALS HAVE COME TO TALK TO US, AND NOT A SINGLE OFFICIAL CAME TO US TO TALK TO US, AND MEET WITH JUST THE DOCTORS AND THE NURSES AND THE POETS AND THE FAMILIES IN THE TENTS TO SAY, WHAT CAN WE DO?
WHAT HAVE WE DONE WRONG?
HOW DO WE MOVE FORWARD?
NO ONE.
NO ONE CAME TO GAZA NOT EVEN BEFORE OCTOBER 7th.
BUT LOOK AT HOW MANY OFFICIALS CAME TO ISRAEL BEFORE AND AFTER, AND HOW MANY TIMES BLINKEN WENT TO ISRAEL, AND BIDEN CAME, AND HOW MANY PHONE CALLS HE HAD, BUT IN GAZA, PUBLISHED TODAY, THEY HAVE BEEN TREATING US SUBHUMANS AND NOT ONLY ISRAEL, BUT THE WHOLE WORLD.
>> THAT IS WHY THE TESTIMONY IS SO IMPORTANT AND WHY WE ARE SO PLEASED TO HAVE YOU ON.
MOSAB ABU TOBAN, THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU.
> >> AND A POET EXPOSING THE HORRORS OF WAR TO THE ACTRESS PORTRAYING THE MISOGYNY IN OUR SOCIETY.
ACTRESS DEMI MOORE HAS MADE HER NAME IN BLOCKBUSTERS LIKE "GHOST, "A FEW GOOD MEN" AND "INDECENT PROPOSAL" AND NOW STARRING IN ONE OF THE MOST ACCLAIMED MOVIES CALLS "THE SUBSTANCE" AND IT IS A HORRIFYING IS HORRIFY ING SATIRE OF OUR CULTURE.
>> HAVE YOU DREAMT OF A BETTER VERSION OF YOURSELF, YOUNGER, MORE BEAUTIFUL, MORE PERFECT?
ONE SINGLE INJECTION UNLOCKS THE DNA AND IT WILL RELEASE ANOTHER VERSION OF YOURSELF.
> >> THE ROLE IS BRINGING PLENTY OF OSCAR BUZZ AND SOME OF THE BEST REVIEWS OF DEMI MOORE'S CAREER, AND WE MET UP IN NEW YORK IN THE MIDDLE OF THE AWARD SEASON CAMPAIGN TO DISCUSS IT.
>> DEMI MOORE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, AND I AM TRULY SO HONORED BECAUSE I AM A FAN, AND THIS IS A VERY NICE AND BIG MOMENT FOR ME.
>> WE ARE HAPPY TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS AMAZING FILM AND SO MANY OTHER THING, BUT FIRST, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT "THE SUBSTANCE" AND IT IS ABOUT BODY HORROR, AND IT HAS BEEN OUT AND A RANGE OF CRITIQUES, AND SOME SAY IT A REALLY DEEP, AND SOME SAY IT IS REALLY SHALLOW, AND YOU, YOURSELF, YOU SAID IT IS AN AMAZING THING OR A DISASTER.
>> YES.
>> NOW THAT IT HAS BEEN OUT FOR A FEW MONTHS, IS IT AMAZE ORG A DISASTER?
>> I THINK IT IS AMAZING.
IT IS REALLY IN TRUTH HIT A CERTAIN KIND OF ZEITGEIST IN POPULAR CULTURE WHICH IS BEYOND WHAT I COULD HAVE EXPECTED, BUT ALL THAT I HOPED FOR.
AND FOR THOSE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING THAT IS VISCERAL ENTERTAINING EXPERIENCE, IT IS ALL THERE, AND FOR THOSE AND MORE SO I FIND PEOPLE WHO WHERE IT IS DEEPLY RESONATED AND TOUCHED THEM IN A PLACE OF THEIR, KIND OF THEIR OWN TRUTH, AND THAT'S REALLY KIND OF THE GREATEST HOPE.
>> IT OBVIOUSLY GOT THIS PHENOMENAL BUZZ OUT OF CANNES WHEN IT GOT A 13-MINUTE STANDING OVATION.
AND WERE YOU SURPRISED, BECAUSE YOU SAID A BUZZ BEYOND, AND WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THE INITIAL REACTION?
>> I WAS SHOCKED, BECAUSE I TRULY WENT IN WITH NO EXPECTATIONS, AND BECAUSE THERE IS A MIX, AND THERE IS NOTHING LIKE THIS FILM, AND SO I DIDN'T KNOW IF THE EXTREME NATURE OF WHERE IT GOES WOULD EITHER KIND OF WORK, CONNECT, WHAT IT WOULD DO, AND I HAD NO IDEA, AND I TRULY KEPT LOOKING OVER AT MARGARET, MY CO-STAR, AND GOING --AND IT IS WORKING.
AND THE CRAZIEST PART OF IT ALLOWED FOR ENOUGH OF A REPRIEVE, THE LAUGHTER TO KIND OF STEP BACK TO KIND OF TAKE IN THE PART THAT IS SO INTENSE.
>> AND IT IS INTENSE.
YOU MENTIONED MARGARET QVALE WHO IS YOUR YOUNGER, AND HARVEY WHO SAID THAT YOU ARE 50, AND YOU HAVE MAXED OUT OF HOLLYWOOD.
SO THAT IS THE PARADIGM, AND GIVE US THE STORY.
IT IS A VERY VISCERAL STORY ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS A BIG DEAL FOR WOMEN IN HOLLYWOOD AND ELSEWHERE.
>> I THINK, AGAIN FOR ME, THE SETTING IS, YOU KNOW, HEIGHTENED BY THE MERE FACT THAT IT'S, YOU KNOW, ELIZABETH IS SOMEBODY IN THE PUBLIC EYE, AND AN ACTRESS, BUT IT IS, AND SO THERE AN ACTRESS, BUT IT IS, AND SO THERE ARE GREATER EXPECTATIONS AND CHALLENGES THAT COME WHEN YOU ARE OUT FRONT FACING AND WITH JUDGMENTS AND CRITICISMS THAT COME FROM THE OUTSIDE.
THE FASCINATING PART FOR ME WITH THIS WAS NOT THE CIRCUMSTANCES, BUT IT IS THE ASPECT OF WHAT SHE WAS DOING TO HERSELF.
THE VALUE SHE WAS PLACING ON WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THOUGHT AND CARED ABOUT.
HER VALUE ON WHETHER SHE WAS SUCCESSFUL BEING THE VERY CRUX OF WHETHER SHE WAS WORTHY OR NOT.
AND I THINK THAT'S THE PIECE THAT REALLY MOVED ME.
IT EXPLORED THAT VIOLENCE THAT BECAN HAVE AGAINST OURSELVES, AND THE HARSH CRITICISM AND THE COMPARE AND DESPAIR.
>> WHEN YOU WERE STARTING OUT AND A MEMBER OF THE HOLLYWOOD BRAT PACK, AND YOU HAD FAMOUS FILMS, DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU WERE SO YOUNG, AND BARELY OUT OF TEENAGERHOOD THAT LIFE WOULD BE LIKE THAT AS AN ACTRESS, AND THAT YOU WOULD FACE ALL OF THESE EXTRAORDINARY PRESSURES AND NOT JUST YOU, BUT ALL WOMEN IN HOLLYWOOD?
>> I THINK THAT THE INTERESTING THING THAT THE FILM HAS AFFORDED ME IS TO LOOK BACK AND REALIZE THAT WHILE THIS IS DEALING WITH SOMEONE WHO IS AGING OUT, THAT LEVEL OF HARSHNESS AND SELF-JUDGMENT IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE PUT ON MYSELF IN THE 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s AND THE DIFFERENCE TODAY IS THAT IT IS NOT THAT IT DOES NOT COME UP, BUT IT IS JUST THAT MY ABILITY AND THE TOOLS THAT I HAVE TO SHIFT THAT ARE VERY DIFFERENT.
>> I SPOKE WITH THE DIRECTOR, THE FRENCH DIRECTOR ABOUT THIS, AND AGAIN, THERE WAS A LOT OF CONTROVERSY ABOUT THIS FILM, AND I ASKED HER WHEN IT WAS FIRST RELEASED WHAT IT WAS LIKE WORKING WITH YOU, AND WE WILL PLAY THE SOUND BITE.
>> I DISCOVERED SOMEONE WHO IS ABLE TO TAKE RISKS AND MAKE A STATEMENT TO THE WORLD WITH THIS STORY, AND PAIRING HER WITH ANOTHER ACTRESS WHICH HAS, WHO HAS KIND OF THIS SAME VISCERAL INSTINCT ENERGY WAS THE WAY TO KIND OF BUILD THE TWO SIDES OF THE CHARACTER.
>> AND SO IT IS A VERY INTERESTING INSIGHT OF YOU, AND WORKING WITH, YOU AND HOW FAR OUT OF YOUR COMFORT ZONE DID SHE PUSH YOU?
>> WELL, THE NATURE OF IT WAS KNOWING THAT I WAS STEPPING INTO SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY RAW AND VULNERABLE, AND TO REALLY TELL THE STORY REQUIRED TO REALLY EXPOSE ALL OF THE PARTS THAT WE GENERALLY MIGHT WANT TO MASK, COVER-UP OR GENERALLY JUST NOT SHARE.
AND, BUT IT WAS THE KIND OF STEPPING OUT OF MY COMFORT ZONE THAT I KNEW THAT IT WOULD BE EMPOWERING AND LIBERATING.
IN A WAY KNOWING THEY WOULD NOT BE PHOTOGRAPHED AND SHOT IN THE MOST GLAMOROUS WAYS, AND QUITE THE OPPOSITE, I WAS GOING TO BE HEIGHTENED SHOTS ACCENTUATING, AND PERHAPS THE THINGS THEY DON'T LOVE.
AND THE TRUTH IS THAT IT REALLY WAS FOR ME IN THE END, IT WAS A RECLAIMING.
IT WAS AND MORE EMPOWERING OWNERSHIP BY JUST SAYING I AM WHO I AM, AND THIS IS WHERE I AM AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, AND FINDING KIND OF THE POWER IN THAT IMPORTANT MESSAGE OF ACCEPTING WHO WE ARE AS WE ARE.
>> AND GIVEN THAT YOU WERE BEING PHOTOGRAPHED AS YOU JUST SAID MAYBE NOT -- >> NOT THE MOST FLATTERING.
>> AND REALLY MORE THAN THAT, YOU WERE FILMED ALONGSIDE SOMEBODY WHO IS VERY, VERY MUCH YOUNGER, AND VERY UBILE AND VERY TONED, AND HOW WAS THAT?
>> THERE ARE MOMENTS OF COMPARE, AND WHEN I TALK ABOUT THAT IDEA OF CIRCUMSTANCES ARE WHAT THEY ARE, BUT IT IS WHAT WE DO TO OURSELVES, AND HOW WE HOLD SOMETHING, HOW SOMETHING IS ON THE OUTSIDE, OR WHAT SOMEONE ELSE DOES OR DOESN'T DO IS IRRELEVANT, AND HOW WE HOLD IT IS EVERYTHING.
AND FOR ME SEEING THE MORE IMPORTANT THE BEAUTY AND FINDING THAT THERE IS BEAUTY IN EVERY STAGE, AND THIS IS ALSO WHAT WAS INTERESTING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, CHOOSING, YOU KNOW, ME TO DO THIS WHERE IT IS NOT WHERE I AM SUPER, SUPER HAGGARD AND SEE WHERE IT WOULD NOT WORK.
SO, I ACTUALLY LOVE AND APPRECIATED IT, WHILE I COULD ALSO SAY, OH, WOW, I CERTAINLY LIKED HOW HER BUTT LOOKED BETTER THAN MINE.
>> YOU LOOKED AMAZING.
>> NO, FOR ME, IT WAS ONE OF THE BEST PARTS OF HAVING THAT.
>> AND I SPOKE TO JODIE FOSTER A WHILE AGO ABOUT TRUE DETECTIVE AND SHE PLAYED THE MOST SUCCESSFUL SEASON, THE FINAL SEASON AND SHE SAID THAT TURNING 60 WAS INCREDIBLY LIBERATING FOR HER AS A FEMALE ACTRESS AND SOMEONE WHO PLAYS ALONGSIDE YOUNGER ACTORS AND HER TIME TO ALMOST PUT THE OTHERS AHEAD OF HER AND GIVE THEM THE CHANCE AND NOT THINK SO MUCH ABOUT HER OWN VANITY, AND DO YOU FEEL THAT HAVING TURNED 60 CONSCIOUSLY OR SUBCONSCIOUSLY A TURNING POINT.
>> I COULDN'T AGREE MORE.
THERE IS A GREAT FREEDOM IN IT, AND AGAIN, WHEN, YOU KNOW, LIKE IN THE STORY, WHEN YOU ARE CHASING THE IDEA OF PERFECTION OR YOU ARE PLACING A VALUE OF SOMETHING BEING BETTER AS YOUNGER VERSUS, YOU KNOW, AS I HEARD A WOMAN WRITE IN ON A BBC RADIO SHOW, AND THEY SAID, HOW DO YOU CELEBRATE YOUR BODY AT THIS AGE, AND SHE WAS IN HER LATE 70s AND SHE SAID, YOU KNOW, MY BODY HAS THE SIZE AND SHAPE HAS STAYED THE SAME, AND IT IS MORE LOOSELY WRAPPED.
I TOTALLY GET IT, AND I UNDERSTAND.
AND I THOUGHT WOULD I TRADE A TIGHTER [ BLEEP ] FOR THE WISDOM AND THE EACE AND SERENITY THAT I HAVE IN LIFE TODAY, NO, I WOULDN'T.
>> THAT IS IMPORTANT AND PROFOUND, BECAUSE YOU WROTE A MEMOIR WHERE YOU HAD POINTED VISCERAL INFORMATION THAT YOU SHARED ABOUT YOUR CHILDHOOD AND THE SEXUAL ABUSE THAT YOU ENDURED, THE DRUGS, THE ALCOHOL, THE FEAR OF BEING YOU AT THAT TIME, AND HOW YOU COPED WITH IT.
BUT YOU ALSO REALLY AGAIN CREATED HEADLINES WHEN YOU WERE TOGETHER WITH AND MARRIED TO ASHTON KUTCHER WHO WAS A LOT YOUNGER AND HE WAS 25.
AND YOU WERE -- >> 40.
>> AND THIS FILM IS ABOUT AGING, AND HOW TO DEAL WITH IT, AND HOW MUCH OF DOING THE FILM AND EXPERIENCING THE FILM COULD YOU LINK TO YOUR OWN PRIVATE LIFE OF BEING A OLDER WOMAN WITH A YOUNGER MAN?
>> I THINK THAT EVERYTHING IN LIFE IS IN SERVICE.
FOR ME, I LOOK AT EVERYTHING IN LIFE IS HAPPENING FOR ME.
NOT TO ME.
THAT INCLUDES IF NOT MORE SO THE MORE CHALLENGING THINGS.
YOU KNOW, IT IS INTERESTING THAT DURING THAT TIME, YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT I WAS THE FIRST PERSON WHO WAS WITH A YOUNGER MAN, AND I WAS NOT, BUT SOMEHOW I WAS PLACED AS A BIT OF A POSTER THAT CAME WITH A LOT OF JUDGMENT.
BUT I THINK THAT ALL OF MY LIFE HAS BEEN IN SERVICE THAT IN A WAY THE THINGS THAT I WRITE ABOUT IN THE BOOK THAT ARE DEALING WITH A LOT OF MY OWN CHALLENGES WITH MY OWN BODY ISSUES, THE VALUE, ESPECIALLY IN MY YOUNGER YEARS PLACED ON MY BODY BEING A CERTAIN WAY ALSO GAVE ME A LOT OF DEPTH TO BRING TO THIS.
EVEN THOUGH THAT IS NOT WHERE I AM SITTING TODAY.
BUT I THINK THAT I HAVE ALL OF THAT TO BRING INTO THE TABLE.
>> AND YOU WENT, AND SOBER AFTER A WHILE, AND THAT WAS COMPROMISED AS WELL DURING YOUR MARRIAGE.
>> IT WAS.
>> TELL ME ABOUT THAT.
OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT LEARN FROM THAT HAVING TAKEN A MORAL AND PHYSICAL STAND AGAINST THE ADDICTIONS -- >> YEAH.
>> --AND THEN TO HAVE A LOVER OR A HUSBAND SWERVE YOU OFF OF THE BEATEN PATH.
>> AGAIN, I THINK THAT ALL OF MY CHOICES I TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR.
NOBODY DOES ANYTHING TO YOU.
BUT I ALLOWED THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF WANTING TO BE SOMETHING THAT I AM NOT TO OPEN A DOOR.
AND WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT I CAN LOOK AT THE ARC OF EVERYTHING IN MY JOURNEY HAS ALL BEEN REALLY ABOUT ONE PATH WHICH IS IN SERVICE OF VALUING MYSELF.
AND IN A WAY, IT TOOK A LOT TO STRIP ME DOWN OF EVERYTHING FOR ME TO FIND AND REALLY EXPLORE THE VALUE OF WHO AM I WITH NOTHING.
LIKE IF I AM NOT A MOTHER, NOT A WIFE, NOT AN ACTOR, I CAN FIND VALUE AND LOVE FOR MYSELF AS JUST A BEING.
>> AND?
>> AND I HAVE.
AND BUT IT IS NOT A PLACE THAT YOU GET TO AND IT IS DONE.
IT IS A PROCESS OF A CONTINUING PROCESS.
>> YOU HAVE THREE DAUGHTERS, THREE GROWN DAUGHTERS IN THEIR 30s, AND HOW DO THEY REACT TO THE FILM AND TO YOUR BOOK, BECAUSE YOU SHARED A LOT OF SECRETS.
>> I DID.
I THINK THAT THERE WAS A LOT IN THE BOOK THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW PARTICULARLY ABOUT MY CHILDHOOD AND SOME OF THAT, BUT I THINK THAT IT GAVE THEM A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF MAYBE ASPECTS OF MY INTENSITY OF CERTAIN THINGS.
BUT OVERALL, IT GAVE THEM A CATHARTIC HEALING FOR THEM AS WELL.
IN A WAY, I FEEL LIKE THE FILM WAS ALMOST KIND OF A SECONDARY MAYBE INSTALLMENT TO PROCESSING WHATEVER WAS LEFTOVER FROM SOME OF THAT REAL LACK OF VALUE.
I HAD REALLY HAD NO VALUE FOR MYSELF.
I MEAN, EVERYTHING WAS IN MANY RESPECTS KIND OF BASED ON KIND OF MY --LIKE, I DON'T WANT TO SAY EXTERNAL ACHIEVEMENTS, BUT THERE WAS A PART THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT I HAD GIVEN A LOT MORE POWER TO.
AND EVEN IN STEPPING BACK, I TOOK A LONG TIME TO BE WITH MY KIDS AND ONE OF THE HARDER PARTS OF REENGAGING WITH MY CAREER IS THAT MY OWN SUCCESS DID NOT DRIVE ME.
>> AND DID THEY LIKE THE FILM?
>> IT WAS INTENSE TO SEE IT.
DEFINITELY DID.
MY DAUGHTER WHO HAS A BABY NOW -- >> YOU ARE GRANDMOTHER.
I AM SAYING IT ALOUD, BECAUSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE LOOKING AT YOU.
>> AND WE HAVE HAD MANY CONVERSATIONS AROUND THIS IDEA, AND I LOVE TO SHARE THAT IN PART OF THE CONVERSATIONS MY MIDDLE DAUGHTER SCOUT REFLECTED SOMETHING SO BEAUTIFUL WHICH IS THIS IDEA THAT SHE SAID, I WANT TO QUIT WASTING TIME ON ALL THAT I AM NOT WHEN I CAN BE CELEBRATING ALL THAT I AM.
>> THAT IS A VICTORY.
SCORE ONE.
>> 100%.
>> IN TERMS OF THE FAMILY DYNAMIC, YOU WERE MARRIED 13 YEARS TO BRUCE WILLIS, A HUGE MEGA STAR, AND HE IS DIAGNOSED WITH A KIND OF DEMENTIA.
>> FTD.
>> CAN YOU SAY WHAT THAT IS?
>> YES, FRONTAL TEMPORAL DEMENTIA.
>> AND YOU PUT OUT REGULAR UPDATES.
>> AND GIVEN THE GIVENS HE IS IN A STABLE PLACE, AND I HAVE SHARED IT BEFORE, BUT I REALLY MEAN IT SO SINCERELY, AND IT IS SO IMPORTANT FOR ANYBODY WHO IS DEALING WITH THIS TO REALLY MEET THEM WHERE THEY ARE AT, AND FROM THAT PLACE, THERE IS SUCH LOVING AND JOY.
I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT, AND IT'S NOT WHAT I WOULD WISH UPON ANYONE, AND THERE IS GREAT LOSS, BUT THERE IS GREAT BEAUTY AND GIFTS THAT CAN COME OUT OF IT.
>> AND ALSO, IN TERMS OF THE EXTENDED FAMILY DYNAMIC, AND THE FACT THAT YOU ARE AN EX-WIFE, AND HE HAS A CURRENT WIFE.
>> YES, HE DOES.
>> AND CHILDREN.
>> YES.
>> AND YOU ALL SEEM TO GET ALONG.
>> YES, AND IT IS IMPORTANT TO ME EVEN FROM WHEN BRUCE AND I SEPARATE AND DIVORCED IS THE RECOGNITION THAT WE'RE A FAMILY, AND WE WILL ALWAYS BE IN A FAMILY, BUT IN A DIFFERENT FORM, AND THAT FORM MAY EVOLVE AND CHANGE.
AND THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH WE CAN ALL BE IN THAT FORM.
I'M GRATEFUL BECAUSE IT IS NOT JUST ME, AND IT HAS TO REQUIRE EVERYBODY TO BE COMING TOGETHER, AND IT IS LOVELY.
I AM SO GRATEFUL.
>> BACK TO THIS FILM "THE SUBSTANCE" BECAUSE IT IS THE OSCAR CAMPAIGN AND BUZZ AROUND CORALIE BEING NOMINATED FOR BEST DIRECTOR, AND REMEMBER, IT TOOK MOVIE, THE STREAMING DEVICE TO RELEASE YOUR FEE CHUCK, AND THE - -FEATURE, BECAUSE THE BIG STUDIOS DIDN'T.
>> AND REMEMBER, IF WE DIDN'T HAVE "EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE ALL AT ONCE" WHICH IS A FILM THAT YOU DIDN'T EXPECT TO BE IN THE ARENA.
>> THAT IS MICHELLE YEO'S FILM.
>> I FEEL LIKE IT IS A UNIQUE FILM, AND THERE IS NOTHING LIKE IT.
SO, WE'LL SEE.
WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
>> ALL RIGHT.
DEMI MOORE, THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> REVEALING INDEED.
> >> AND NEXT, IT IS THE ONE THING THAT WE PRACTICALLY NEVER LEAVE HOME WITHOUT, BUT COULD TO SMART PHONES BE SPYING ON US.
AND PULITZER PRIZE WINNING WRITER RONAN FARROW JOINS MICHEL MARTIN NOW TO DISCUSS HIS NEW DOCUMENTARY "SURVEILLANCE" AND THE FRIGHTENING WORLD OF SPYWARE.
>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.
>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE.
>> THIS MAY SEEM BASIC, BUT TAKE US TO THE BEGINNING, AND WHAT IS SPYWARE AND HOW DID YOU BECOME AWARE OF IT?
>> THE MOST MODERN FORMS OF SPYWARE THAT WE MUST BE CONCERNED ABOUT CAN HIJACK THE PHONE UNDETECT BLI AND TURN ON THE LISTENING DEVICE AND TURN ON THE CAMERA, AND DISGORGE ALL OF YOUR PERSONAL CONTENT AND SEND IT REMOTELY TO WHOEVER IS OPERATING THE TECHNOLOGY.
SO THE CORE THING TO NOTE IS THAT IT HAS BEEN USED FOR A LONG TIME AS A TOOL OF OPPRESSION UNDER DICTATORSHIPS AND AUTOCRACIES AND WE SEE IT SHOWING UP UNDER MURDERED DISSIDENTS AND JOURNALISTS AND HUNDREDS OF ACTIVISTS AROUND THE WORLD.
BUT WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRACKING IN RECENT YEARS OF REPORTING IS THAT IN ONE WESTERN DEMOCRACY AFTER ANOTHER, AND COUNTRIES THAT HAVE PROTECTIONS AGAINST THESE ENTRUGSS INTRUSIONS IN THEIR BODIES OF LAWS IS THAT THESE S KAND CANDALS ARE HAPPENING OVER AND OVER.
WE HAVE SEEN NIT POLAND AND SPAIN, AND IN THIS DOCUMENTARY "SURVEILLED" IS WHERE WE SEE SOCIETY MEMBERS BEING HACKED IN THIS WAY.
AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT, MICHEL, FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE BEING SURVEILLED IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND INCLUDING HIGH-TECH WAYS AND SOMEBODY TRACKING MY GPS DATA, IT IS NOT JUST INFORMATION GATHERING, BUT IT IS INTIMIDATION, AND IT IS SHRINKING THE SPACE OF EXPRESS OF ALL KIND, AND SMIGT THAT WE SHOULD ALL BE CONCERNED ABOUT.
THE FILM IS SHOWING THAT NOT JUST OPPOSITION ACTIVISTS AND POLITICIAN, BUT PEOPLE ARE CAUGHT UP IN THIS ALL OF THE TIME.
>> WE HAVE TO GET VERY BASIC HERE, BECAUSE PEOPLE SAY, LOOK, IF YOU ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, WHAT DO YOU CARE IF PEOPLE ARE FOLLOWING YOU AROUND OR LISTENING TO YOUR CONVERSATION, AND I FEEL THAT YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WHY THIS MATTERS.
>> THE REASON TO CARE ABOUT THIS ARE TWO-FOLD, AND YOU COULD HAVE THE POSTURE THAT DESCRIBED, MICHEL, I AM NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, AND NOBODY WANTS MY DATA, AND INTUITIVELY THAT MAKES SENSE, BUT WHEN WE SEE OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THE ORWELLIAN DRAGNETS HAPPEN, AND PEOPLE SAY, IT COULD NOT HAPPEN HERE IN DEMOCRACIES IS THAT INNOCENT BYSTANDERS AND TOTALLY APOLITICAL PEOPLE ARE CAUGHT UP IN THE DRAGNETS.
>> WHY SHOULD PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD CARE ABOUT THE HACKING THAT YOU ARE DOCUMENTING HERE IN CATALONIA?
>> THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST CASES WHERE THERE IS A LARGE AND VAST AFFECTED NUMBER OF PEOPLE, AND FROM A LARGE AND VAST NUMBER OF CATEGORIES OF SOCIETY.
SO WE'VE HAD THE PARLIAMENT OF CATALONIA TARGET AND THE GOVERNMENT TARGETED AND LAWYERS TARGETED AND WE'VE HAD CIVIL LEADERS OF CULTURAL ORGANIZATIONS OF CATALONIA TARGETED.
>> THIS IS NOT SOME FUTURE ORWELLIAN SCENARIO, AND IT HAPPENED HERE, AND IT IS HAPPENING HERE.
>> IT IS HAPPENING HERE.
> >> AND TO GET AT THE OTHER PART OF WHY PEOPLE SHOULD CARE ABOUT THIS, WHETHER YOU WIND UP ON A LIST OR NOT, YOU HAVE TO BE INVESTED IN HOW THIS KIND OF TECHNOLOGY SHRINKS THE SPACE FOR ALL FORMS OF DISSENT AND OPPOSITION.
WE HAVE SEEN EXTREME CASES OF THAT, MICHEL, LIKE IN THE CASE OF THE JOURNALIST JAMAL KHASHOGGI WITH THE ALLEGATION THAT PEGASUS, ONE OF THE POWERFUL SPYWARE SHOWED UP IN RP ASSOCIATES OF HIS, AND THEY DENY IT, BUT THAT IS THE CASE.
AND THAT IS THE PATTERN, THAT YOU HAVE HIM COMMUNICATING DISSENT ABOUT THE SAUDI GOVERNMENT, AND HE WOUND UP DEAD.
THAT IS AN EXTREME CASE, BUT IN ALL OF THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE THIS TECHNOLOGY AT THEIR FINGERPRINTS, AND THE U. S. GOVERNMENT HAS PURCHASED THIS TECHNOLOGY, AND WE HAVE TO BE CONCERNED THAT PRIVATE COMMUNICATIONS THAT EXPRESS DISSENT CAN BE A FORM OF RETALIATION.
>> ONE OF THE PEOPLE INTERVIEWED TOLD YOU THAT THE SYSTEM OF CHECKS AND BALANCES HAVE COME TO TELL YOU THAT THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE TAKEN FOR GRANTED IN THE WEST HAVE UNRAVELED BEFORE OUR EYES.
GOING TO THE REPORTING IN SPAIN, WHERE A LOT OF THE REPORTING IN THE DOCUMENTARY IS FROM, WHAT HAPPENED THERE?
>> IN SPAIN, WHERE PEOPLE REALLY DID SAY, IT DID NOT HAPPEN HERE.
YOU HAD A PEACEFUL ELECTION IN CATALONIA, WHICH IS NEAR THE CAPITAL OF BARCELONA, AND THEY WANTED TO SEPARATE TO BECOME AN INDEPENDENT STATE, AND WHATEVER YOUR VIEWS, THESE ARE PEACEFUL POLITICIANS AND CIVIL SOCIETY MEMBER, AND WHAT WE FOUND THERE, AND I FOLLOWED THE WORK OF A WATCHDOG GROUP CALLED CITIZEN LAB, THERE IS ONE OF THE LARGEST CLUSTERS OF HACKING VICTIMS IN THE WORLD.
JUST ONE POLITICIAN AFTER ANOTHER, AND THESE ARE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT MEMBERS IN SOME CASES, AND WE SHOW IN THE FILM, THE CASES OF THE POLITICIANS TESTING THEIR PHONES AND FINDING OUT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN HACKED.
[SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE] >> WHEN DOES IT LOOK LIKE YOU WERE INFECTED?
>> I WILL HAVE TO CHECK THE DATE, BUT AROUND THAT DAY, I WAS APPOINTED MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT.
>> HOW DO YOU FEEL KNOWING THAT YOU MAY HAVE BEEN COMPROMISED IN THIS WAY?
>> WELL, I FEEL SURPRISED AND ANGRY AT THE SAME TIME.
>> THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT SENSITIVE CONVERSATIONS HAVE BEEN DISGORGED OR IF THE SPANISH GOVERNMENT WILL RETALIATE AGAINST THEM, AND IN THE U. S. , WE HAVE BEEN FLIRTING WITH THE TECHNOLOGY AND PARTIES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE HAVE PURCHASED THE TECH AND EXPLORED USING IT, AND COME CLOSE TO IT UNDER FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND THE FBI DID PURCHASE PEGASUS, ONE OF THE TYPES OF TECHNOLOGY, AND THEY HAVE SAID THEY HAVE DONE MORE THAN TESTING, BUT IT HAS NOT BEEN DEPLOYED OPERATIONALLY YET, BUT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME EFFORTS IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO LIMIT THE GOVERNMENT'S ABILITY TO PURCHASE SPYWARE, THEY HAVE GONE AHEAD TO PURCHASE MORE.
UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY HAS PURCHASED A SOFTWARE CALLED GRAPHITE BUILT BY PARAGON, AND THAT CONTRACT IS BEING REVIEWED, BUT YOU WILL HAVE A NEW ADMINISTRATION COMING INTO HAVE THIS AT ITS FINGERPRINTS WHERE THEY HAVE SAID THEY WILL GO AFTER JOURNALISTS AND YOU CAN SEE WHY PRIVATE RIGHTS ADVOCATES AND DEMOCRACY RIGHTS ADVOCATES ARE FEARFUL FOR THIS TO HAPPEN IN PLACE WHERE IS PEOPLE DID NOT EXPECT IT TO HAPPEN.
>> ONE OF THE INFAMOUS COMPANIES IN THIS FIELD IS THE NSO GROUP KNOWN FOR PEGASUS, THEIR SOFTWARE.
YOU WERE ACTUALLY INVITED INSIDE OF THEIR HEADQUARTERS IN TEL AVIV IN 2022, AND WHAT DID THEY SAY ABOUT WHAT THEY DO AND WHAT ARE THE CAPABILITIES OF WHAT THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY DO?
>> THE WHOLE FRAMEWORK OF THE DEBATE AROUND THIS TECHNOLOGY IS WHAT WE SEE ALL OF THE TIME IN TERMS OF THE POWERFUL INTRUSIVE LAW ENFORCEMENT TOOL, AND THERE IS AN ARGUMENT THEORETICALLY THAT IT CAN BE A GOOD THING FOR THE INVESTMENT, AND I TALKED TO LAW OFFICIALS FROM WESTERN DEMOCRACIES THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT PEGASUS, AND ALSO LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS SAYING THAT WE WOULD LOVE TO COMPLETELY OPEN UP ANYONE'S PHONE ANY TIME WE WANT, AND THEY SAY THEY USE IT TO TARGET TERRORIST, AND THIS IS THE KIND OF THE SHOW THAT IS PUT ON BY ADVOCATES OF THIS TECHNOLOGY, AND THIS IS WHAT I GET IN THE FILM WHEN I GO INTO THE NSOs OFFICES, AND LOOK, WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE THIS TECHNOLOGY TO HELP THE GOOD GUYS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND THEN I INTERVIEW ON THE BACKGROUND AND ON SHADOW, WHISTLE- BLOWERS WHO HAVE LEFT THAT FIRM BECAUSE OF THE ETHICAL OBJECTIONS, AND WHAT THEY ARE POINTING OUT IS THAT THE BUSINESS MODEL OF THE TOP MAKERS OF THIS IS SAYING THAT THEY ARE MAKING IT WITH AT LEAST SOME LIMITATIONS GET A REALLY LOW FEE, AND THE BREAD AND THE BUTTER OF THE BUSINESS, THE GIANT FEES COME FROM PLACES LIKE SAUDI ARABIA WHERE THE SPYWARE MAKERS KNOW THAT CLIENT IS GOING TO BE USING IT TO SQUASH DISSENT, AND WHAT THE SPYWARE MAKERS THEMSELVES, AND THE TOP PERSON SAYS IT IS JUST NOT THEIR FAULT, AND THERE IS NO GUIDELINES IN THE GENEVA CONVENTION THAT CAN REALLY HARM DEMOCRACIES.
>> AND SO THE BASIS OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, AND DO THEY MAINTAIN ANY CONTROL WHO THEY SELL TO?
>> AND THE NSO GROUP, THE SPY GROUPS, MAKE THE CLAIM THAT THEIR ACTIVITIES ARE TIGHTLY CONTROLLED BY THE ISRAELI AUTHORITIES AND THE FACT THAT THIS IS A TECHNOLOGY THAT IS FLOURISHING OUT OF TEL AVIV SPECIFICALLY IS NOT AN ACCIDENT, MICHEL.
THIS IS A HIGHLY INNOVATIVE TECH SETTING IN GENERAL WITH A REALLY STRONG POOL OF TALENT, BUT IT IS ALSO SPECIFICALLY A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE COME OUT OF MANDATORY MILITARY SERVICE, AND THEY COME OUT OF THE INTELLIGENCE UNITS IN THE ISRAELI MILITARY, AND THEY HAVE A SKILLSET EARLY IN THE CAREER THAT THEY SERVE THAT THEY APPLY STARTING THE COMPANIES WORKING FOR THESE COMPANIES, AND THAT IS WHY YOU WILL HAVE ISRAEL AT THE FOREFRONT OF THIS PRIVATE TECH, AND CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND THE PRIVATE SPYWARE MAKE, AND THE NSO GROUP HAS BEEN REPORTED TO DEPLOYING THE TECHNOLOGY ON BEHALF OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IN THE CURRENT CONFLICT IN THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES TO TRY TO FIND HOSTAGES.
AND BY THE WAY, ON THE OTHER HAND, WE TALKED TO PALESTINIAN POLITICIANS IN THIS FILM WHO SAY, LOOK, IT IS NOT JUST IN THIS CURRENT CONFLICT, AND FOR YEARS, ISRAEL HAS BEEN USING PALESTINIAN POPULATION AS A LAB THAT THEY SURVEIL ACTIVISTS IN THAT SPACE.
>> SO, LET'S GO BACK TO THE UNITED STATES, AND I WANTED TO MENTION THAT THERE IS BOTH THE DOCUMENTARY AND THERE'S ALSO A PIECE THAT YOU PUBLISHED IN "THE NEW YORKER. "
AND IN "THE NEW YORKER" YOU DETAILED HOW I. C. E. ACQUIRED PARAGON SPY TECHNOLOGY UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WHERE IT COULD BE USED MORE AGGRESSIVELY IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND YOU SPOKE TO THE ADMINISTRATOR WHO DEFENDED LEGITIMATE NATIONAL SECURITY USES OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES, BUT LET'S --WE RA --WE ARE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AWAY FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION RETURNING TO OFFICE, AND THEY EXPECT TO HAVE A VERY AGGRESSIVE DEPORTATION POLICY, AND HOW MIGHT THIS TECHNOLOGY BE USED IN THE SERVICE OF THAT?
>> WELL, THIS IS WHAT PRIVACY LAW ADVOCATES ARE SO FRIGHTENED ABOUT.
YOU HAVE FIRST OF ALL A LEGAL FRAMEWORK FOR PRIVACY PROTECTIONS AND LIMITING THIS SPYWARE TECHNOLOGY THAT IS VERY POROUS, MICHEL.
I MEAN, AFTER SOME OF MY REPORTING THE BIDEN WHITE HOUSE ANNOUNCED IN SOME OF THE STORIES THAT I DID THAT THEY WOULD LOOK INTO SOME OF THE SPYWARE THAT WAS USED ABUSIVELY, BUT THEY PURCHASED MORE, AND THAT MEANS MORE OFFICES CAN USE IT, AND LOWER THRESHOLD AND LESS EXAMINATION OF WHEN IT IS USE AND NO CLEAR STANDARDS OF LAID OUT OF HOW AND WHEN THE GOVERNMENT CAN USE THIS.
AND THEN, YOU HAVE THIS INCOMING ADMINISTRATION WHERE EVERY SINGLE PRIVACY LAWYER SAID, NOT ONLY CAN THEY EXPLOIT ALL OF THE HOLES IN THE EXISTING FRAMEWORK, THEY ARE NOT EVEN SURE THAT THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION WILL CARE ABOUT THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK.
YOU REALLY DO HAVE INCOMING OFFICIALS, ADMINISTRATION MEMBERS WHO HAVE SAID THAT THEY DISREGARD THE LAW, THAT THEY VIEW THE EXECUTIVE AS HAVING ABSOLUTE POWER.
IF WE HAVE A COMBINATION OF A DISREGARD FOR ANY GUARDRAILS, AND THIS TECHNOLOGY ALREADY BEING AT THE FINGERPRINTS OF THE GOVERNMENT, THE CONSEQUENCES ARE GENUINELY FRIGHTENING TO ME, AND ONE OF THE TIMES I HAVE BEEN AFRAID AS A JOURNALIST, AND ONE WHO HAS DEALT WITH A FAIR AMOUNT OF INTIMIDATION, AND THERE IS ALWAYS A LEGAL FRAMEWORK TO LIMIT THE INTRUSION IN WHAT WE DO, AND IF YOU LOSE THE SPACE FOR INVESTIGATIONS TO HOLD PEOPLE IN POWER TO ACCOUNT, YOU WILL LOSE THE POTENTIAL FOR THE NEXT WATERGATE, FOR THE NEXT PENTAGON S, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD ALL CARE ABOUT, AND IN THIS CASE, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY HAS THIS, AND BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAYS THEY HAVE PAUSED THE CONTRACT, AND IT IS POWERFUL PHONE TAPPING, AND YOU COULD SEE HOW I. C. E. COULD DEPLOY IT IN THE MANDATE OF MASS IMMIGRATION DEPLOYMENT.
>> AND IT COULD FIND YOU WHEREVER YOU ARE?
>> EVEN FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CAUGHT UP IN THE IMMIGRATION ISSUE AT PLAY, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE HERE IN A COMPLETELY PERMISSIBLE WAY, AND THEY ARE AWAITING IMMIGRATION PROCEEDINGS OF SOME KIND, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE HERE ILLEGALLY, AND I THINK THAT THERE IS ALSO A GOOD ARGUMENT FROM THE HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATES THE PRIVATE COMMUNICATIONS COULD NOT BE UP FOR GRABS WITHOUT A SPECIFIC LAW ENFORCEMENT WARRANT THAT IS ABOUT MORE THAN JUST THEIR STATUS, AND WHAT I HAVE HEARD FROM THE PRIVACY LAW EXPERTS AGAIN AND AGAIN, IT IS TECHNOLOGY PURCHASED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY IS THAT IT IS OFTEN THE TECHNOLOGY THAT IS LEGALLY QUESTIONABLE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A CLEAR NATIONAL SECURITY RATIONAL THAT IS CLEARING THEM FROM SCRUTINY, AND ONCE IT IS IN THE HANDS OF DHS IS THAT YOU CANNOT GUARANTEE IT IS JUST BEING USED BY I. C. E. , AND WE DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT, BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRANSPARENCY ON THAT, AND SO IT IS PIVOTAL THAT INDIVIDUALS DEMAND, AND CONGRESS DEMANDS, MORE TRANSPARENCY ABOUT WHO IS USING THIS TECHNOLOGY AND WHEN.
THIS IS REALLY GOING TO BE A PROTECTION THAT HAS TO COME THROUGH THE CHECKS AND BALANCES THROUGH AN OUTSIDE OUTSIDE COUNTER BALANCE IN THE FORM OF CONGRESS.
THIS IS A LARGELY UNREGULATED SPACE THAT I THINK THAT THE HISTORY THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED SHOWS US THAT IT DESPERATELY NEEDS REGULATION AS IT IS MORE INTRUSIVE.
>> WHAT ABOUT THE PARAGON ABOUT HOW THEIR TECHNOLOGY COULD BE USED IN THE IMMIGRATION EFFORTS THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT?
>> THERE ARE TWO CAMPS IN THE INDUSTRY, AND THE PEOPLE WHO SEE ALL OF THE SCANDALS THAT HAVE EMERGED ABOUT THE NSO GROUP, AND THE RESPONSE IS, WELL, WE WILL KEEP SELLING TO THE BAD GUYS AND WE WILL BE MORE SECRETIVE ABOUT IT, AND THEN THE PLAYERS WHO SEE THE LUCRATIVE MARKET FOR SELLING TO THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT AND OTHER BIG WESTERN GOVERNMENTS, AND THEY REALIZE THAT THOSE GOVERNMENTS ARE GOING TO BE AVERSE TO ASSOCIATION WITH SCANDAL, AND SO THEY TRY TO PRESENT THEMSELVES AS A CLEANER ALTERNATIVE.
PARAGON IS ONE OF THE COMPANY, AND PART OF THE PITCH IS, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO POLICE MORE EXPERTLY WHETHER OUR TECHNOLOGY IS ABUSED, AND YOU KNOW, WE ARE GOING TO BE A LITTLE CLEANER ABOUT WHICH CLIENT STATES WE DEAL WITH.
WE WON'T DEAL WITH THE REAL BAD GUYS.
AND THAT IS THE SAME PITCH THAT NSO MADE, AND WE DON'T KNOW IF PARAGON IS GOING TO SUCCEED, BUT THEY SAID THEY WOULD LIMIT IT TO COUNTRIES THAT WOULD NOT ABUSE IT.
AND ONE OF THE SOURCES SAID THAT THE VETTING PROCESS THAT LED TO THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY USING TECHNOLOGY LED TO THEM DEMONSTRATING OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THEY HAVE ROBUST MECHANISMS FROM PREVENTING THE OTHER CLIENT STATES FROM SPYING ON AMERICANS, BUT PIVOTALLY, THERE IS NO GUARDRAILS OF DHS SPYING ON AMERICAN, AND THOSE GUARDRAILS HAVE TO COME FROM WITHIN.
>> RONAN FARROW, THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.
>> THANK YOU, MICHEL.
>> THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTARY "SURVEILLED" IS AVAILABLE TO STREAM ON MAX.
> >> AND FINALLY AS THE DAYS ARE SHORTER AND THE NIGHTS ARE LONGER, THE FESTIVAL OF LIGHTS ARE BRINGING WARM TOTH THE CITY OF LEON, AND 2 MILLION PEOPLE ARE TO VISIT THE CITY, AND IT IS NOT THE ONLY CITY CHASING AWAY THE BLUES.
AND IN NEW YORK, THERE IS THE ANNUAL LIGHTING OF THE ROCKEFELLER TREE, AND IT HAS BEEN BRINGING FESTIVE CHEER TO THE CITY SINCE 1931.
THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, AND IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT AMANPOUR.
COM.
THAT IS OUR NEWS TONIGHT AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.