Does the West Owe Pakistan Climate Change Reparations?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, HOST: So, the queen’s experience and knowledge of international relations will of course be missed by many. Just days before her death, she had expressed solidarity and sadness with the people of Pakistan as record floods swept through the country. As people there attempt to rebuild their lives, officials warn that it may take months for the waters to recede. While the death toll nears 1,500, concern is rising as diseases spread among the displaced who’ve seen their whole lives just washed away. Aisha Khan is chief executive of the Civil Society Coalition for Climate Change. And recently, she spoke to Hari Sreenivasan about the devastation and the impact of these floods.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARI SREENIVASAN, CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks. Aisha Khan, thanks so much for joining us. We have heard some of the statistics. I mean, put it in perspective for us, you’re on the ground there. You’ve been watching what’s happening. When we talk about a third of the population of a country the size of Pakistan, or 30 million people, how do we even conceptualize that?

AISHA KHAN, CHIEF EXECUTIVE, CIVIL SOCIETY COLLATION FOR CLIMATE CHANGE: Very difficult. You know, this country has seen disasters before. We’ve had the 2005 earthquake. We’ve had the 2010 floods. But this is like a monster disaster. When you look at the images, it’s mindboggling. So, one-third of the country, and you see that, you know, it’s happening in areas where people who are already unserved and underserved. It has struck the poorer areas the most. So, it has actually amplified their difficulties and put them in a very rough spot.

SREENIVASAN: So, for people who might not be familiar with just the geography of Pakistan, what stretch of the country are we talking about here, and how are the floods, soft of, progressing or working their way down?

KHAN: They’re actually not working their way down. This time, they’re working their way up. This started deep south in the province of Balochistan then they worked themselves up towards the province of Sindh, and then they went up north. So, what’s happened this time is that the monsoons and the global warming that has accelerated the melting of the glaciers has combined together. So, normally when the monsoons set in, there’s one system that becomes active, like, from the Bay of Bengal or from the Arabian Sea. This time, both systems were active simultaneously. And at the same time, the mountains and the snow started — the snows on the mountains, rather, started melting. So, when the two converge, we have an area that is deep south that is flooded first. And now we have, you know, up north that is also being flooded. So, it’s a mega, mega disaster that we’re facing.

SREENIVASAN: So, who is most affected by this? Is this more rural versus more urban? More poor versus more rich? More female versus more male?

KHAN: I think with the gender issue, it is equal numbers because in a household, usually they’re evenly divided. So, the areas where it has happened is the southern parts of the country. The remote and underdeveloped parts of the country. So, most of the poor people live there. Most of these people rely on agriculture. They rely on livestock. And both these sources of livelihood have been taken away from them. So, they’re getting the most affected. In the mountain areas, it becomes even more difficult because the terrain is very difficult and very different. So, they’re getting affected in a different way. And their difficulties, I think, we’ll see more problems because of the approaching winter. As the temperatures drop in the mountain areas, these people will be in need of shelter. And as you must have heard, you know, we are very short on temporary shelters, like tents. There’s something like 173,000 people in the province of Sindh who have been provided with temporary shelters. Whereas we need something like 5.2 million tents right now.

SREENIVASAN: Where is the government in terms of food aid? Where is the International Community?

KHAN: The International Community is helping and the government is providing them with the relief and rescue operations. But I don’t think that the needs of all the people can be met. So, there is malnutrition, there is disease, there are deaths as a result of, I think, starvation and exposure to the, well, elements.

SREENIVASAN: And when you talk about exposure, standing water, that is a perfect ingredient for the spread of malaria and dengue, and other waterborne illnesses, especially in areas where they don’t have sewage infrastructure. So, I mean, what are the health concerns?

KHAN: The health concerns are going to increase, they’re already there. Malaria is spreading very fast. Dengue is spreading very fast. And there are skin diseases also that are being reported, rashes on the skin, especially with children. Because there’s no hygiene, there’s no sanitation. And there’s another health crisis. A significant number of the women are pregnant, they’re expecting. And there is no way that they can be provided with any facility for deliveries.

SREENIVASAN: The United Nations Population Fund estimated 128,000 pregnant women that are caught up in this disaster. How do women face these disasters, perhaps differently in a country like Pakistan?

KHAN: Women always have a rough time. You know, even without disasters, I think in a country which is very low in the gender gap ranking and in the human development index as well. The women don’t have equal access to resources and opportunities. So, in a disaster situation when they’re in camps, they have health problems. You’ve indicated to that. But there are other problems as well. There’s problem of gender-based violence, there’s problem of sexual abuse, there’s problems of mental health. So, all these problems, you know, affect women. And because they are weaker and they have no economic independence, and socially, I think, they are not encouraged to take matters into their own hands. They don’t have social spaces or social safety nets. So, they actually bear the brunt whether it’s conflict or climate induced disasters.

SREENIVASAN: So, how are people making it out of these flood regions? Is there any transportation infrastructure that’s still working? Are there communities that are cut off, so to speak?

KHAN: Yes, they’re cut off. They’re cut off. We have, you know, so many bridges that were destroyed. We have almost, like, 5,000 kilometers of road infrastructure that was destroyed. So, these people are essentially trapped where they are and they are totally reliant on relief rescue by the state agencies and the support the state is getting from countries outside.

SREENIVASAN: And speaking of countries outside, is there any movements towards basically just higher ground, but also to countries in the neighborhood for India or Afghanistan?

KHAN: To reach out for help?

SREENIVASAN: No, no. I mean, are people trying to leave the country or their areas, or are they just trying to stay inside Pakistan but just someplace more dry?

KHAN: They’re staying inside Pakistan. They’re trapped where they are. They can’t move out right now. And if they move out, they will actually move to higher ground and they will move to, maybe, the urban areas because their standing crops have been destroyed. Their land on which they do crop cultivation has been destroyed. So, as it is, you know, in Pakistan, South Asia as a whole, but more so in Pakistan, the rate of rural to urban migration has been high in the last few years. In fact, they say by 2040 perhaps 50 percent of Pakistan will be living in urban areas. So, there are going to be urban sprawls, and another kind of problems that we will face in the next decade because the urban cities really don’t have the infrastructure right now to meet the needs of the existing population.

SREENIVASAN: The other thing I want to start looking at a little bit is, what is the state of Pakistan even before these floods. Economically, it was challenging. We’ve read stories about how high inflation is right now. What does this disaster do to a country that’s economically not in a great position to be able to deal with it?

KHAN: Good question. You know, I think even without climate change, we were facing a lot of difficulties. And I think this is probably the weakest that I have seen Pakistan. Because politically, there is instability. Socially, we are highly polarized. And economically, we are very weak. So, in this condition, when you have a disaster of this magnitude hit you, it just compounds the difficulties. And it makes it very difficult for the stakeholders to work together because of the polarization and because of the political fragmentation.

SREENIVASAN: And at this point, is the frustration from perhaps the lack of response or what is the reality in the lives of so many people, is that boiling over into the politics?

KHAN: I think it was there in the politics even before. And this is just going to exacerbate the differences between the different political parties if they decide to put political interests before humanitarian interests. Because if everyone tries to get political mileage out of it, it’s going to be at the expense of the people who are suffering right now. So, I hope that doesn’t happen. I hope some better sense prevails. And everyone comes together because this is a time for national unity, not for discord.

SREENIVASAN: You know, you’re have the chief executive for Civil Society Coalition for Climate Change and you are part of international conversations frequently. What does this tell you in terms of the responsibility or what the International Community needs to do. Not just specifically for this disaster, but are trying to decrease the climate change that Pakistan is witnessing.

KHAN: I think this is a time for reckoning. I think climate change conversations that started as way back as 1972 with the Stockholm Convention. And then it progressed to the Earth Summit in Rio. But they have been, perhaps, the longest in the history of negotiations. We’ve had 26 conference of parties and the outcomes have mostly been diluted, they’re delayed, they’re disappointing. At these climate conferences, there are lofty declarations about just transition about developments that leaves no one behind or one humanity and shared responsibility. So, now is the time, I think, for the International Community to come out and actually translate that into action. And the first thing that needs to be done right now is to identify the cause of this vulnerability. Because it is climate change. It is global warming. So, I think that the high emitting countries need to fast-track emission reduction. They need to spend more on mitigation at home. And they need to provide developing countries or low emitting countries that are highly vulnerable. And you’ve seen what’s happened to Pakistan. Today it’s us, tomorrow it might be somebody else. But more money has to be given for adaptation.

SREENIVASAN: The climate doesn’t necessarily care about borders, it doesn’t care about regions, right? It’s happening where — whether we like it or not. So, how does Pakistan, for example, make a case to the International Community. I mean, you’re generating less than one percent of greenhouse gases and here you are, along with other parts of South Asia, feeling the brunt of climate change in a much more personal and profound intangible way.

KHAN: I think Pakistan has been saying this, you know, for a number of years at the international negotiations that we are a low emitter but the country has to pay a disproportionately high price. Even before this event happened, the calculations were that about 3.79 billion annually will be the cost that Pakistan will have to pay for climate change. So, I think the call for climate justice will be taken up at this conference that is coming up at Sharm el-Sheikh to discuss these issues. And, I think, make a plea for it that this cannot go on because Pakistan is just one example of what climate change can do. The uncertainties that are packed into climate change. Because this is not an event that anybody expected to happen. A scientist had said that this kind of events will happen 30 years from now. But everything is fast-tracked. You saw how the northern hemisphere also went through a heat wave. There have been wildfires. There have been episodes of drought. So, there’s simultaneously too many things that are happening that are taking us to the edge of oppressiveness. And I think that, you know, everyone in the global community calls it and recognizes climate change as an existential threat. But I don’t think they’ve been able to frame this into a deeper understanding of the vulnerability. Everybody uses these words, but not quite, you, know, respond to take the urgent action that is needed.

SREENIVASAN: What are you expecting from this conference that could be different? Because you also see a lot of westerns or wealthier countries who are trying to figure out how to make themselves more resilient, how to spend on their own adaptation. At the same time, you have countries in the global south who are suffering from the effects in a much more acute way.

KHAN: I think we need to kind of revisit the concept of development. If we say, leave no one behind, then we can’t have some countries that are developing in the way in which they are developing at the cost of other countries. So, it makes one wonder, you know, how many more devastations, how many more lives lost before it will become unconscionable for people who are following a development trajectory that is putting the lives of millions at risk in other parts of the world. And Pakistan is just, you know, one country. I keep repeating that, that they are lots of other countries, especially the small island development states. They will submerge completely. Where will they go? So, it is, you know, taking the future of humanity into account. We should pivot, you know, our discussions at the upcoming CAP around human security. That is the number one priority. I think survival of everyone, with certain access to certain basic needs should be the fundamental thing that needs to be addressed. But again, you know, I think that, you know, the conversations will be about loss and damage. They will be about the green climate fund. And I do agree with you that, you know, since climate change is affecting the global north, they may have less to give and more to spend on themselves. Because, you know, it’s human nature to want to protect yourself first before you can be of any aid or assistance to someone else.

SREENIVASAN: When you look at the interdependence and interconnectedness of the South Asian region especially when it comes to things like food. Right now, with these fields flooded, next year’s wheat crop is gone. Not to mention all the crops that are underwater today. Are there enough grain supplies and stores for the people of Pakistan to have food in a few months?

KHAN: I’m afraid not. You know, we’re already facing food scarcity issues, and these will get amplified. Also, in the future because our population is increasing at an unsustainable rate of two percent. So, South Asia, as a whole, will be facing problems because we will, in the next two decades, probably have scarcity of water. Because if the glaciers we have of the snow on the mountains that provides the water in a river system — because the HKH, you know, provides water to about 10 river basins. So, when this water shrinks at source, everybody’s share will decline. And that will become a flash point for conflict. So, it’s much better before we reach that point to learn how to do more with less. And there’s another thing, you know, happening in South Asia is the mass movement of people. About 800 million are living in climate hotspots. So, that’s next disaster waiting to happen.

SREENIVASAN: Aisha khan, chief executive of a Civil Society Coalition for Climate Change. Thanks so much for joining us.

KHAN: Thank you.