Exclusive Interview with Larry Nassar Prosecutor

BAMBOOZLED BY THE MYSTIQUE OR AURA LARRY NASSAR PRESENTS HIMSELF TO BE A WELL QUALIFIED FAMILY MAN.

THAT'S ONE THING.

BUT THERE ARE OFFICIALS IN PARTICULAR FBI OFFICIALS TRAINED TO SEE THROUGH PEOPLE LIKE HIM AND IN THIS CASE, MANY FAILED.

I WANT TO READ A BRIEF PORTION OF A TWITTER THREAD YOU POSTED YESTERDAY.

YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT, YOU TALKED ABOUT CASE SPECIFICALLY.

YOU SAID WHEN I GOT THE CASE IN OCTOBER OF 2016, I/WE, YOUR TEAM, HAD MANY MEETINGS WITH LOCAL FBI SAID OFFICIALS.

I/WE REPEATEDLY ASKED WHAT HAD BEEN DONE BETWEEN JULY 2015 THAT FIRST REPORT TO THE FBI AND THE REPORTING IN AUGUST 2016.

OUR QUESTIONS WERE NEVER ANSWERED AND WERE ALWAYS EVADED.

WHAT ROLE IN DROPPING THE BALL HERE DID THE FBI PLAY?

WELL, WE SAW IT DEMONSTRATED FIRST HAND YESTERDAY BOTH IN THE POWERFUL TESTIMONY OF THE SURVIVORS, BUT ALSO IN THAT HISTORIC APOLOGY BY DIRECTOR WRAY.

IT'S LONG OVERDUE.

BUT WE KNOW THAT THERE WERE MANY OPPORTUNITIES THAT THE FEDERAL OFFICIALS HAD, OTHERS HAD, THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF LARRY NASSAR'S CAREER.

HAD THEY DONE THEIR JOB?

HAD THEY INVESTIGATED CLAIMS?

HAD THEY BELIEVED VICTIMS, WE KNOW IN JULY OF 2015 THREE OF AMERICA'S MOST BELOVED OLYMPIC ATHLETES REPORTED THEIR ABUSE TO THE FBI.

WE KNOW IN THE IG REPORT VERY LITTLE INVESTIGATION, IF ANY, WAS DONE FOR MANY, MANY MONTHS.

NO PROPER INTERVIEWS.

I WAS HEART BROKEN TO HEAR AGAIN IN GRAPHIC DETAIL THAT McKAYLA MARRONE WAS INTERVIEWED ABOUT IMPORTANT TRAUMATIC EVENTS.

OVER THE PHONE IN HER BEDROOM.

I JUST IMAGINE HER PUTTING HER PHONE DOWN WITHOUT A, YOU KNOW, ADVOCATE.

WITHOUT THERAPY HER ABUSE WAS MINIMIZED.

THERE ARE MANY OPPORTUNITIES THE FBI DROPPED THE BALL.

IT'S IMPORTANT WE LEARN FROM THOSE LESSONS.

I AM LEFT WITH THE IDEA HOW MANY OTHER VICTIMS AREN'T OLYMPIAN WHO ARE OUT THERE, WHOSE CASES ARE INVESTIGATED THAT MAY HAVE ALSO COME AGAINST AN AGENT SIMILAR TO THIS.

IT'S VERY DISTURBING WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE BIG PICTURE RAMIFICATIONS.

FIRST OF ALL, THE FACT THAT THE FBI ASSIGNED A MALE INVESTI INVESTIGATOR TO SPEAK WITH THESE WOMEN AND YOUNG GIRLS TO GO THROUGH GRAPHIC AND EMOTIONAL AND PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, I DON'T UNDERSTAND FOR THE LIFE OF ME WHY THEY WANT TO FIND WOMEN WHO I WOULD IMAGINE WOULD HAVE AT LEAST BEEN A BIT MORE COMFORTABLE FOR THESE GIRLS AND WOMEN TO TALK TO.

NONETHELESS, McKAYLA SAYS WHEN SHE FINALLY FINISHED AND TOLD THIS OFFICER WHAT HAD HAPPENED, HE JUST SAID, IS THAT ALL?

IS THAT IT?

AND TO HAVE THAT AS THE RESPONSE AFTER A YOUNG WOMAN ARC YOUNG GIRL REVEALED SUCH DETAIL, CAN I ONLY IMAGINE MENTALLY HOW TRAUMATIZING THAT WAS, WHICH LEADS TO ACCOUNTABILITY.

CHRIS WHAT WRAY NOTED ONE WAS FIRED, ONE RETIRED.

IS THAT IT?

IS THAT THE END OF THE STORY?

I SURE HOPE NOT.

THOSE THINGS SHOULDN'T HAPPEN AS A MATTER OF COURSE WHAT WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED IN THE COURSE OF THIS SESSION.

I BELIEVE ONE OF THEM UP UNTIL TWO WEEKS AGO WAS INVOLVED IN HUMAN TRAFFICKING INVESTIGATIONS IN OTHER CASES, SO, WHILE I THINK WE ALL WHO CARE ABOUT THIS CASE AND THESE SURVIVORS WELCOME THAT RESPONSE, I THINK THE QUESTIONS THAT WERE ASKED YESTERDAY BY THE SURVIVORS AND BY MANY OF THE SENATORS ARE ONES WE ARE STILL LEFT WITH.

QUITE FRANKLY, WE'RE INCREDIBLY DISAPPOINTED THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DIDN'T COME TO THE HEARING AND ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS.

WHY WERE CHARGES NOT BROUGHT WHEN WE HAVE AGENTS THE INSPECTOR GENERALLY CLEARLY IDENTIFIED AS LYING DURING THE COURSE OF THE INVESTIGATION.

AGAIN, THOSE LIES HAD REAL DIRECT CONSEQUENCES TO THESE VICTIMS AND TO THE OTHER VICTIMS NASSER HAD ACCESS WITH.

I THINK THAT'S THE FIRST QUESTION OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

WHY ARE THERE NO CRIMINAL CHARGES AND ARE THERE OTHER THAT WERE INVOLVED WE DON'T KNOW?

IS IT PLAUSIBLE THERE ARE ONLY TWO OFFICIAL WHO'S HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THIS IN 2015, WHO HAVE SEEM TO BE THE FOCUS OF WHERE THE BLAME IS GETTING PUT?

ARE THERE ANY OTHERS WHO WERE AWARE, WHO WERE AWARE WHEN AN INDIANAPOLIS STAR BROUGHT THAT REPORT WHICH BROKE THIS OPENED BUT FOR THAT INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST?

I FEAR NASSER WOULD STILL BE ABUSING VICTIMS INVOLVED IN THIS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS THAT REMAIN AND CONTINUE FOR ACCOUNTABILITY AND CHANGE.

YOU HAVE DEVOTED YOUR PROFESSIONAL CAREER TO HELP AND REPRESENT AND SPEAK OUT FOR THESE WOMEN AND THESE SURVIVORS OF SEXUAL ABUSE AND ASSAULT.

I AM CURIOUS FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, GIVEN THAT WE SAW JUSTICE WAS NOT SERVED FOR SO MANY YEARS, FOR THESE WOMEN OF SUCH HIGH PROFILE, IS THIS A SETBACK FOR YOU AND OTHER GIRLS AND WOMEN WHO ARE YOU DEFENDING WHOSE NAMES ARE NOT KNOWN TO OTHER AMERICANS AND PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD?

I DON'T THINK IT'S A SET BANG.

ANY TIME WE HAVE TIME TO SHED LIGHT ON THESE CRIMES.

THEY OCCUR IN DARKNESS AND BREED IN DARKNESS.

BY SHEDDING LIGHT ON THESE HORRIFIC ASPECTS OF OUR SOCIETY, WE CAN ONLY ENCOURAGE OTHER SURVIVORS, WHETHER THEY OCCURRED YESTERDAY OR 20 YEARS AGO TO COME FORWARD.

I AM A FIRM BELIEVER WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THIS MORE AND START BY BELIEVING VICTIMS.

McKAYLA AND ALY AND SIMONE CAME FORWARD TO TRUSTED ADULTS AND TOLD WHAT HAPPENED.

THEY WERE NOT BELIEVED.

THEY WERE NOT PROPERLY TREATED WITH A TRAUMA-INFORMED VICTIM-CENTERED APPROACH, THE BEST PRACTICES WE USE IN ORDER TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN OUR CASE.

SO I AM FOUGHT DISCOURAGED.

I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF WORK THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN WITHIN LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES, PROSECUTORS FEED TO DO A BETTER JOB.

WE AS A SOCIETY HAVE TO BELIEVE VICTIMS.

IT DOESN'T MEAN WE DON'T WHOLEHEARTEDLY INVESTIGATE.

WE HAVE TO SUPPORT THEM WHEN THEY DECIDE TO COME FORWARD, WE WILL DO SOMETHING WITH THAT INVESTIGATION.

WE WILL INVESTIGATE THESE THOROUGHLY.

WE WILL STOP PREDATORS FROM ABUSING OTHER VICTIMS.

ANGELA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL OF THE IMPORTANT WORK YOU DO AND, ONCE AGAIN, OUR THANKS TO THOSE BRAVE WOMEN YESTERDAY WHO NOT ONLY TALKED ACT THE IMPACT ON THEMSELVES BUT CLEARLY WHAT WAS MOST IMPORTANT TO THEM, LEFT TO EXPRESS THEIR CONCERN FOR ALL OF THE OTHER VICTIMS OF LARRY NASSAR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU.

> AND TURNING TO THE DANGEROUS SIDE OF SOCIAL MEDIA, INSTAGRAM SAYS IT'S LOOKING FOR NEW WAYS TO DISCOURAGE YOUNG PEOPLE FOCUSING ON THEIR APPEARANCE.

THEY REVEALED RESEARCHERS FROM FACEBOOK WHICH OWNS INSTAGRAM, REPEATEDLY FOUND THE AD WAS TOXIC, EVEN DEADLY FOR TEEN GIRLS IN PARTICULAR.

WHAT'S MORE, THE ARTICLE SAYS THE SOCIAL MEDIA GIANT KNEW IT AND DOWNPLAYED THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE IN PUBLIC.

HERE NOW IS GEORGIA WELLS AND KRISTEN HARRIS, THE CO-FOUNDER OF HUMANE TECH.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

GEORGIA, LET ME BEGIN WITH YOU.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN WITH THESE SOCIAL MEDIA STORIES AND ALLEGATIONS AND SCANDALS OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, IN PARTICULAR WITH FACEBOOK, FACEBOOK SAID, THIS ISN'T A FACEBOOK-ONLY ISSUE THAT APPLIES TO ALL APPs.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE HERE.

WHAT THIS REPORT INDICATES IS THIS WAS INSTAGRAM-SPECIFIC.

YES, EXACTLY.

THE DOCUMENT SAYS THIS ISSUE MAKES A SOCIAL COMPARISON WAS WORSE ON INSTAGRAM.

NEGATIVE SOCIAL COMPARISON IS THIS ISSUE WHERE YOU'RE LOOKING AT CONTENT RATHER FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF TRYING TO LEARN MORE AND MORE FROM HOW DO I STACK UP NEXT TO THESE PEOPLE?

THE DOCUMENT STATES THAT ON SNAPCHAT, THE EFFECT IS MITIGATED PARTLY BECAUSE A LOT OF THEIR FITTERS ARE SILLY RATHER THAN BEAUTIFYING, ON TikTok, A LOT IS PERFORMS-BASED.

INSTAGRAM THE BODY IS THE FOCUS.

WE TALK ABOUT HOW WIDESPREAD THIS ISSUE IS.

22 MILLION TEENS LOG ON EACH DAY.

40% OF INSTAGRAM'S USERS ARE UNDER THE AGE OF 22 IT WAS SO APPEALS, THEY SUE THEIR AUDIENCE AND USERS WERE CONTINUALLY OLDER DEMOGRAPHIC.

TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES PLAGUING IN PARTICULAR YOUNG GIRLS, EATING DISORDERS AND DEPRESSION AND EVEN THOUGHTS OF SUICIDE.

YEAH, YES, ONE OF THE DOCUMENTS SAID 32% OF TEEN GIRLS SAID WHEN THEY FELT BAD ABOUT THEIR BODIES, INSTAGRAM PAID THEM FEEL WORSE.

ANOTHER SAID WE MAKE THEM WORSE FOR ONE IN THREE TEEN GIRLS.

THAT WAS A STUDY OF KEEN GIRLS THAT STRUGGLED.

CLEARLY ACKNOWLEDGING FACEBOOK AND INSTAGRAM KNEW OF THIS ISSUE.

I WAS STRUCK BY AN INTERVIEW YOU CONDUCTED AND SHE TALKED ABOUT HER STRUGGLES WITH EATING DISORDERS AND MENTAL ISSUES AND THOUGHTS OF SELF HARM.

BECAUSE SHE SAYS OF WHAT SHE SAW ON INSTAGRAM AND WHAT SHE WAS EXPOSED TO, STARTING AT A VERY YOUNG AGE.

LET'S LISTEN TO SOME OF THAT INTERVIEW.

I DEFINITELY REALIZED A LOT OF THE CONTENT PRODUCED BY SOME OF MY FAVORITE FITNESS SPONSORS TRIGGERED MY BINGES OR RESTRICTIVE CYCLES.

I VIVIDLY REMEMBER THIS ONE TIME WHEN I ATE I THINK IT WAS A PIECE OF CAKE OR ICE CREAM, SOME DESSERT THAT ISN'T THE HEALTHIEST FOR YOU.

NO BIG DEAL.

I MADE MY MOM TAKE ME TO THE GYM AROUND 9:30 OR 10:00 P.M., JUST SO I COULD RUN 6 MILES AND BURN OFF WHAT I HAD JUST CONSUMED.

IT WENT DOWNHILL MORE SO FOR HER AS SHE GOT OLDER.

THE GOOD NEWS IS SHE IS OKAY NOW.

AND SHE IS HEALTHY.

BUT SHE GOT THERE BECAUSE, GEORGIA, SHE QUIT INSTAGRAM.

I MEAN, IS THAT THE ONLY SOLUTION HERE?

WHAT, IF ANYTHING, IS FACEBOOK DOING AND INSTAGRAM IS DOING TO MITIGATE THIS IN.

I HAVE SPOKEN TO MANY TEEN GIRLS OVER THE PAST SEVERAL WEEKS.

OTHER TEENS I HAVE SPOKEN TO SAID THEY NOW INSTALL THE APPs THAT CAN LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF TIME THEY SPEND EACH DAY ON INSTAGRAM.

BUT INSTAGRAM ALSO -- WE SPOKE TO CURRENT RESEARCHERS THERE WHO SAY THEY'RE CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC OF NEW FEATURES AND DIRECT A USER AWAY FROM HARMFUL CONTENT.

THE OTHER MIGHT BE A NUDGE TO REMIND THEM TO TAKE A BREAK FROM INSTAGRAM.

THE DOCUMENTS STATE SOME OF THE MOST VULNERABLE TEENAGERS CAN BE THE HARDEST TO REACH.

THIS IS WHERE I WANT TO BRING YOU IN.

I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH.

I WOULD IMAGINE THIS BOMBSHELL REPORTING THROUGH THE WALL STREET JOURNAL AND INTERNAL DOCUMENTS THAT THEY'VE REVEALED ARE FOUGHT OF A SURPRISE TO YOU?

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

I THINK THIS 'WALL STREET JOURNAL' INVESTIGATION IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

IT PUTS MEAT ON THE BONES OF WHAT SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FEELING.

SOME MIGHT BE FEELING THIS IS EQUIVALENT OF A STORY WATER IS WET.

I THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THIS IS A DERANGING BRIAN IMPLANT FOR OUR SOCIETY.

WE HAVE ESSENTIALLY 2 BILLION PEOPLE STACKED INTO A BRAIN IMPLANT THAT DOESN'T HAVE OUR BEST INTEREST IN MIND.

WE JACKED IT INTO OUR CHILDREN SO LONG.

IT'S NOT JUST FACEBOOK AGREE WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE RESEARCH AND INSTAGRAM SPECIFICALLY HAS DONE.

YOU CAN GENERALIZE THESE DIFFERENT EFFECTS IN A SENSE TO THE ENTIRE ENGAGEMENT INDUSTRY TO TikTok, TO SnapChat AND YOUTUBE, THEY PROFIT FROM VIEWS BLIND, WHATEVER IT IS THAT GETS ATTENTION IN SOME OF THE WALL STREET JOURNAL'S REPORTING, RADICALIZED PARTIES IN EUROPE, IT'S A 50-50 SPLIT BETWEEN NEUTRAL THINGS ABOUT POLICY, THE MORE THEY PLAYED UP NEGATIVE SORT OF YELLOW JOURNALISM, THEY PROFIT BY TURNING EACH OF US INTO YELLOW JOURNALISTS INCREASINGLY LIE, DISTORT, EXAGGERATE.

THAT'S BEEN DISTORTING EVERYTHING IN OUR SOCIETY.

FOR THOSE THAT SAW THE SOCIAL DILEMMA, THIS IS VALIDATION THAT THE BUSINESS MODEL AT THE CORE OF THESE SERVICES IS A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM.

EVERYTHING ELSE BESIDES THAT IS SORT OF A DISTRACTION OR RE-ARRANGING THE DECK CHAIRS ON THE TITANIC.

WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL BUSINESS MODEL OF THESE COMPANIES.

AND UNTIL THAT HAPPENS, WE CAN EXPECT MORE AND MORE EVIDENCE OF THAT WATER IS WET.

I JUST WANT TO READ FOR YOU WHAT FACEBOOK'S RESPONSE WAS TO THE 'WALL STREET JOURNAL' REPORTING.

I'M READ THIS, QUOTE, SOCIAL MEDIA ISN'T INHERENTLY GOOD OR BAD, MANY FIND IT HELPFUL ONE DAY, PROBLEMATIC THEIC IN.

WHAT HELPS MOST IS HOW PEOPLE USE THEIR STATE OF MIND WHEN THEY USE IT.

WHAT STANDS OUT TO ME IS FORGET ACCOUNTABILITY, EARLIER WE HEARD OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, ADAM ZUCKERBERG WOULD TESTIFY, THEY WOULD HIGHLIGHT THE BENEFITS OF SOCIAL MEDIA AND FACEBOOK AND INSTAGRAM.

NOT THIS.

THIS SOUNDS A BIT DIFFERENT.

THIS SOUND SORT OF TO EACH THEIR OWN AND OUR PRODUCT DOESN'T PLAY A ROLE IN THIS.

HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THEIR RESPONSE?

BOTH FOREVER, THIS HAS HAPPENED SO MANY YEARS NOW.

THEY CLAIM, HEY, WE'RE HOLDING UP A MIRROR TO YOUR SOCIETY.

IF YOU HAVE TEENAGERS WITH ANXIETY ISSUES OR MENTAL HEALTH, WE'RE SORRY IT'S SHOWING A MIRROR.

IT'S NOT A MIRROR, IT'S MORE LIKE A FUN HOUSE MIRROR, SPECIFICALLY THEY WANT TO AMPLIFY IN THAT MIRROR ARE THINGS GOOD FOR GETTING ATTENTION.

SO LONG THAT IS TRUE.

WE ARE WORTH MORE AS A SOCIETY WHEN WE ARE OUTRAGED, VALIDATION SEEKING.

THIS IS FORMS BECAUSE ALL OF THOSE ARE SUCCESS CASES AND WHILE THERE ARE THINGS THAT CAN COME FROM THESE SERVICES, THE BALANCE SHOOT, KIDS WHO HAVE BODY IMAGE ISSUES AND EATING DISORDERS, THEY CAN BECOME INFERTILE, OSTEOPOROSIS.

THERE IS DEEP ISSUES THAT CAN COME FROM ALL THIS.

THE BALANCE SHEET OF RISKS IS NOW SO OVERWHELMING WHEN THE WORLD STOPS WORKING AND OPEN SOCIETIES DON'T WORK, WE CANNOT AFFORD THAT OUTCOME.

SO IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE BALANCE SHEETS OF COSTS ARE NOT INTERNALIZED.

SO, GEORGIA, I MEAN, WE HAVE NOW ONE OF THE FEW TIMES IN THE MODERN DAY IN THIS ERA IN WASHINGTON WHERE YOU SEE BIPARTISAN SUPPORT FOR INVESTIGATION COMING FROM TWO SENATORS, ONE REPUBLICAN, ONE DEMOCRAT, BLUMENTHAL AND MARSHA BLACKBURN, BUT IS THAT GOING TO GET THE RESULTS AND THE ANSWERS THAT YOUR INVESTIGATION HAS MADE CLEAR ARE NEEDED?

ION WHAT KIND OF TASTES CAN COME FROM WHATEVER THEY MIGHT SUGGEST OR PROPOSE.

CAN I CONFIRM MY INBOX IS FILLED WITH E-MAILS FROM PARENTS THAT CARE ABOUT THIS ISSUE RIGHT NOW.

E-MAIL AFTER E-MAIL AFTER E-MAIL.

SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

ARE WE NOW GOING TO FOLLOW WHAT OTHER CEOs, WHAT TECH CEOs HAVE BEEN DOING FOR YEARS NOW AND THAT'S ALLOWING ZERO SCREEN TIME FOR THEIR CHILDREN AND EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY WORK AT SOME OF THESE OR INVEST, THEY DON'T ALLOW THEIR CHILDREN TO HAVE ANY SORT OF ACCOUNTS?

IS THIS A ZERO SUM GAME?

IS THERE ANYWAY, EXECUTIVES WILL SAY, THE GENIE IS OUT OF THE BOTTLE.

LIKE THIS IS THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE.

SO IT'S EITHER CONGRESS THAT DOESN'T APPEAR TO HAVE THE RIGHT ANSWERS RIGHT NOW OR PARENTS MAKING THE DECISIONS FOR THEIR CHILDREN?

WELL, I THINK IT'S SO ENORMOUS.

I THINK WE ARE IN NEED OF A CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION FOR TECHNOLOGY.

BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY HAS ACCELERATED SO QUICKLY BEYOND THE CAPACITY FOR GOVERNANCE TO ACTUALLY CATCH UP OR NO KNOW ABOUT THE ISSUES.

WHEN YOU CREATE HARM THAT YOU CAN REVERSE LATER, THAT'S ONE FORM OF ISSUES IN AN INDUSTRY.

WHEN YOU CREATE HARM THAT'S IRREVERSIBLE, DERANGING OPEN SOCIETIES SO THEY NO LONGER FUNCTION WHILE WHICH HAVE GEOPOLITICAL RIVALS COORDINATING, WE NEED A CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION TO SAY WHAT IS OPEN SOCIETY EQUALS A STRONGER OPEN SOCIETY.

RIGHT NOW A DIGITAL AUTHORITARIAN SOCIETY ARE CONSTANTLY USING TECHNOLOGY TO MAKE STRONGER MORE EFFECTIVE TOTALITARIAN SOCIETIES.

OPEN SOCIETIES ARE FOUGHT USING THAT.

OPEN SOCIETIES ARE ALLOWS PRIVATE TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES TO PROFIT.

THIS IS MORE THAN ALL THESE INCREDIBLE HARMS I THINK PEOPLE ARE TURNING INTO.

IT'S WHETHER OR NOT OPEN SOCIETY CAN EXIST IN THE FUTURE.

I THINK WE CAN GET THERE IF WE HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION IN AN OPEN SOCIETY.

THE KEY IS CHANGING THE BUSINESS MODELS.

THAT MIGHT REQUIRE VERY DRAMATIC INTERVENTION.

I WOULD IMAGINE A CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION IS A BIT OF WISHFUL THINKING.

SOMETHING MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE, THESE STORIES AND INVESTIGATIONS LIKE YOURS CONTINUE TO EXPOSE REAL DANGERS THAT PUT OUR CHILDREN AT GREAT RISK.

SO I APPRECIATE ALL THE WORK YOU ARE DOING.

THANK YOU AS ALWAYS FOR SOUNDING THE ALARM.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU.

> IF YOU OR ANYONE YOU KNOW ARE AFFECTED BY ANY OF THE ISSUES WE'VE DISCUSSED.

YOU CAN ASK FOR HELP WHEREVER YOU ARE ON FIND HELPLINE.COM.

> NOW WE TURN OUR ATTENTION TO VENEZUELA VENEZUELA FOR A SOBERING LOOK.

A NEW FILM ZEROS IN ON THE LIVES OF EVERY DAY PEOPLE AS THEY STRUGGLE TO FIND FOOD, MEDICINE AND EARN THE MONEY THEY NEED TO GET BY.

TAKE A LOOK AT THIS CLIP OF TWO MEN SO DESPERATE TO EAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR FOOD IN THE SEWERS.

THEY ARE LOOKING.

WHAT IS THIS.

THAT IS SO DIFFICULT TO WATCH.

FEATURED HEAVILY IS ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS FACES, AN EXILED LEADER WHO SPENT THREE YEARS IN PRISON FOLLOWED BY HOUSE ARREST FOR SPEAKING OUT AHEAD OF PRESIDENT NICHOLAS MADURO.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

AS I MENTIONED, IT'S DIFFICULT TO WATCH THIS FILM, EQUALLY IMPORTANT.

I WANTED TO ASK WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO PARTICIPATE?

WHAT MESSAGE IS IT THAT YOU ARE HOPING THE WORLD TAKES FROM THIS?

WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.

THIS FILM PORTRAYS A STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM AND THERE ARE MANY REASONS WHY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WERE FIGHTING AND CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR FREEDOM IN VENEZUELA AND I THINK THAT FILM IS VERY SUCCESSFUL IN PORTRAYING THIS FIGHT FOR FREEDOM BY THE REASONS THAT ARE VERY DIFFERENT, IN VERY DIFFERENT SECTORS OF VENEZUELA.

MY PERSONAL STORY IS A STORY OF THE FIGHT FOR FREEDOM FROM POLITICAL LEADERSHIP.

WE PROMOTED PROTESTS, SPECIFIC, NON-VIOLENT PROTESTS IN 2013, 2014 AND WE WERE, I WAS DETAINED.

I WAS SENT TO A MILITARY PRISON WHERE I SPENT ALMOST FOUR YEARS, I WAS TAKEN TO HOUSE ARREST AND BACK TO MILITARY PRISON.

THEN I SPENT A YEAR-AND-A-HALF AS A POLITICAL ASYLUM IN THE EMBASSY OF SPAIN AND THE COMMITMENT WE'VE HAD IS TO HAVE FREEDOM OF DEMOCRACY IN VENEZUELA.

WHEN YOU HAVE STREAMED, YOU REALLY STRUGGLE BECAUSE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS A GREAT NEED FOR EVERY DAY LIFE TO FUNCTION FOR THIS IDEA OF FREEDOM.

AND FREEDOM NOW FOR MANY IN VENEZUELA WOULD APPEAR TO BE A LUXURY, GIVEN THAT AS THAT CLIP SHOWED, MILLIONS DON'T HAVE ENOUGH FOOD.

80% OF THE COUNTRY IS NOW FOOD AND SECURE.

THERE IS ANOTHER STORY, ANOTHER CHARACTER WE HEAR FROM.

HIS PARENTS ACTUALLY IN A VERY HEART BREAKING MOMENT IN THE DOCUMENTARY.

A PROTESTER JUAN PABLO.

HE WAS KILLED BY A MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL GUARD WHO HAD FIRED A TEAR GAS CANNISTER AT HIM AS HE HAD BEEN PROTESTING, ALONG WITH MANY OTHERS THERE.

HIS FATHER, HIS PARENTS, WENT TO TESTIFY IN WASHINGTON ABOUT THEIR SON.

I WANT TO PLAY THAT CLIP.

WE CAN TALK MORE ABOUT IT AFTER.

[ SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE ]

> I BELIEVE HE WAS JUST 17-YEARS-OLD AND IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO WATCH THAT FATHER, SUCH HEARTACHE AND EXPLAIN THAT ALL HIS SON WANTED WAS A BETTER FUTURE FOR HIS COUNTRIES WHICH HE LOVES SO MUCH AS THE FILM DOCUMENTED MULTIPLE YEARS OF THE FIGHT FOR FREEDOM IN THE COUNTRY, WHY HASN'T MORE BEEN DONE?

I MEAN, YOU TALK ABOUT THE DE FACTO LEADER JUAN GUIDO.

AT ONE POINT HE WAS RECOGNIZED BY 60 COUNTRIES AS THE LEGITIMATE LEADER BY THE UNITED STATES AS WELL AND YET HERE WE ARE TODAY IN THE MIDDLE OF 2021, ARE YOU AN EXILE IN SPAIN AND NICOLAS MADURO IS STILL IN POWER IN VENEZUELA, NEARLY A FAILED STATE AT THIS POINT.

WHAT'S HAPPENED?

WHAT WENT WRONG IN YOUR FIGHT?

WITH HIM I WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THE TESTIMONY.

THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PARENTS HAVING TO BURY THEIR CHILDREN, CHILDREN BURYING THEIR PARENTS FOR THEIR WILLINGNESS TO CONFRONT A DICTATORSHIP.

NICOLAS MADURO IS A CRIMINAL.

HE'S A CRIMINAL THAT IS BEING PRESENTED AS SUCH BY THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT.

TODAY THE U.N. PRESENTED A REPORT THAT IS CALLED THE FACT-FINDING MISSION OF THE U.N.

COMMISSION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS AND IT STATES VERY CLEARLY THAT NICOLAS MADURO AND HIS DICTATORSHIP ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMMITTING VOLUMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

HE HAS COMMITTED ALL CRIMES THAT HAVE AFFECTED MILLIONS OF VENEZUELANS.

YOU HEARD THE TESTIMONY THAT PORTRAYS THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE GONE TO THE STREETS AND GONE OVER AND OVER MANY THINGS IN ORDER TO HAVE FREEDOM IN OUR COUNTRY.

UNFORTUNATELY, AND THAT'S YOUR QUESTION, TODAY WE CONTINUE TO HAVE PHYSICAL LAS MADURO AS A DICTATOR.

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO BRING THIS REFLECTION BEYOND VENEZUELA, WE HAVE SEEN SINGLE PROTESTS ELSEWHERE, IN NICARAGUA, IN CUBA, MYANMAR, AND MANY OTHER PLACES AROUND THE WORLD, WHERE YOU HAVE SEEN PEOPLE GO OUT TO THE STREETS.

BUT DICTATORS LEARN FROM EACH OTHER, HAVE TAKEN THE TACTICS OF OPPRESSION AND USING FEAR, VIOLENCE, PRISON AND EVEN DEATH IN ORDER TO CONTAIN THE PUSH FOR FREEDOM.

SO, YES, WE ARE CONTINUING TO FIGHT AGAINST NICOLAS MADURO.

HE CONTINUES TO HAVE DEFACTO POWER.

WE CONTINUE TO HAVE THE WILL TO FIGHT.

WE ARE A SUPER MAJORITY OF VENEZUELANS, MORE THAN 85% OF THE VENEZUELANS WANT CHANGE TO HAPPEN.

BUT THE REALITY IS THAT WE HAVE A STRONG CRIMINAL, RUTHLESS DICTATOR THAT IS HOLDING ON TO POWER, SINGULARLY IN PLACES THERE ARE STILL DICTATORS, NORTH KOREA, CUBA AND MANY OTHERS.

AND I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE UNITED STATES PUBLIC OPINION, THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS FIGHT FOR FREEDOM REQUIRES AN INTERNATIONAL ENGAGEMENT, IN PARTICULAR, THE COMMITMENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

BECAUSE WE ARE NOT ONLY FIGHTING.

YOU ASKED ME, WHY MADURO IS STILL WILL?

AND A PART OF THE REASON IS BECAUSE HE RECEIVES THE SUPPORT OF VERY STRONG AND MIGHTY COUNTRIES.

AND I AM TALKING ABOUT COIN, RUSSIA, TURKEY, IRAN, CUBA, ARE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE AN EXPANSIONIST VIEW OF THEIR AUTHORITARIAN SYSTEMS AND THEY ARE AFFECTING NOT ONLY VENEZUELA BUT ALSO MANY OTHER COUNTRIES THAT I MENTIONED BEFORE.

SO THIS IS A GLOBAL ISSUE.

AND AS A FILM IT PRESENTS THE CASE OF VENEZUELA, BUT YOU COULD VERY WELL EXTRAPOLATE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN CUBA, VENEZUELA, IN CUBA, TO NICARAGUA AND MANY OTHER COUNTRIES.

THIS IS A MOMENT TO RISE UP TO THE CHALLENGE THAT FREEDOM NEEDS TO BE A FLAG THAT REPRESENTS THE WILL NOT ONLY OF GOVERNMENT, A PART OF IT.

ALSO OF THE PUBLIC OPINION IN THREE COUNTRIES.

I HAVE INTERVIEWED THE OPPOSITION LEADER FROM BELARUS ALSO LIVING IN EXILE WHO HAS MADE THAT EXACT SAME POINT.

IT COMES AT A TIME WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID THE REAL FOREIGN AND GEOPOLITICAL CHALLENGE, THE FOREIGN POLICY CHALLENGE FOR THE FUTURE IS DEMOCRACY VERSUS AUTOCRACY.

HE'S TURNED HIS EYE TO ONE OF HIS BENEFIT FACTORS.

THAT OBVIOUSLY IS CHINA AND MY QUESTION TO YOU IS WE HAVE NOT HEARD MUCH OF A POLICY RELATED TO VENEZUELA FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN AS OF YES.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS A MISTAKE?

AND WOULD YOU EXPECT TO HEAR MORE FROM HIM?

Reporter: WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN AND VENEZUELA THIS IS KEY TO UNDERSTANDING, IT HAS BEEN AND IT CONTINUES TO BE AND I HOPE IT REMAINS THAT WAY IN A BIPOLARISM ISSUE.

IT'S AN ISSUE THAT MOTIVATES REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS.

IT MIGHT BE ONE OF THE FEW ISSUES THAT HAS THIS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT IN THE U.S.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS CONTINUED THE PRESSURE ON NICOLAS MADURO.

HE HAS CONTINUED TO SAY HE IS A CRIMINAL DICTATOR.

HE HAS CONTINUED THE POLICY OF IMPOSING PRESSURE THROUGH DIFFERENT TYPES OF SANCTIONS AND THE COMMITMENT TO PRESSURE UNTIL WE HAVE FREE AND FAIR PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.

AND, YES, I BELIEVE THAT MORE CAN BE DONE, BUT I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS THE A PROBLEM THAT IS SEEN ONLY AS A CASE FOR VENEZUELA.

IT WEAKENS OUR CASE.

THAT IS WHY WHAT YOU SAID BEFORE IS VERY IMPORTANT.

THIS IS A GLOBAL ISSUE.

IT'S AN ISSUE THAT AFFECTS BELARUS, NICARAGUA, VENEZUELA AND MANY OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE FIGHTING THIS SAME REALITY.

HOW TO CONFRONT AUTOCRATS THAT ARE TAKING AHOLD OF POWER IN COUNTRIES THAT ARE ALSO BEING PUBLISHED AND LOSING THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A BETTER FUTURE FOR ITS POPULATION.

SO OUR CALL FOR ACTION IS TO UNITE ALL OF THOSE LEADERSHIPS, COUNTRIES, PRESIDENTS, PARLIAMENTS AROUND FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY.

WHEN I STARTED HERE IN THE UNITED STATES IN THE 1990s, IT WAS A TIME WHERE DEMOCRACY AND MARKET ECONOMY WAS AT THE HEIGHTH OF THE HOPEFUL FUTURE FOR THE YEARS TO COME.

THE MODEL THAT EVERYBODY HOPED THAT WAS GOING TO BE REPLIED, REPLICATED ELSEWHERE, WAS DEMOCRACY AND FREE ECONOMY.

WELL, 30 YEARS AFTER THAT, THE SITUATION IS VERY DIFFERENT AND I THINK THAT AS PRESIDENT BIDEN AS YOU QUOTED CLEARLY STATED A REAL GLOBAL ISSUE TODAY IS AUTHORITARIANISM FACING DEMOCRACY AND I BELIEVE DEMOCRACY NEEDS TO PREVAIL.

BUT IN ORDER TO DO THAT, THERE NEEDS TO BE COMMITMENT AND COURAGE AND REAL POLICY THAT NOT ONLY DEFENDS DEMOCRACY FROM WITHIN, IN DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES, BUT THAT FOR MOST, LEADERSHIP MOVEMENTS AND ACTIVISM OR FREEDOM IN COUNTRIES LIKE VENEZUELA, WHERE WE ARE SUFFERING, THE CRUDE REALITY OF DICTATORS.

WHERE MANY OF THE PEOPLE CAN'T GET ENOUGH TO EAT AND TAKE CARE OF THEIR FAMILIES.

I FIRST HEARD YOUR VOICE AND YOUR NAME AND THAT DAILY PODCAST INTERVIEW IN THE 'NEW YORK TIMES', JUST A FEW YEARS AGO.

AND I APPRECIATE ALL THAT YOU ARE DOING NOW TO BRING THE VOICE OF MILLIONS OF VENEZUELANS DESPERATE FOR FREEDOM AND FOOD TO LIGHT FOR THE WORLD TO SEE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I APPRECIATE BEING IN YOUR PROGRAM AND ONE VERY LAST THOUGHT, FOR MANY PEOPLE, FREEDOM IS JUST THERE.

LIKE THE OXYGEN WHEN YOU BREATHE IT.

YOU KNOW IT'S LACKING WHEN YOU DONE DON'T HAVE IT.

> NOW WE TURN BACK TO THE UNITED STATES WITH BIG DIVISIVE ISSUES LIKE VACCINE MANDATES, ABORTION LAWS AND THE NOTION OF FREEDOM FUELING THE POLITICAL DIVIDE.

ARE AMERICANS BECOMING CONSUMED NOW BY DISCONTENT?

AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS?

IT'S THE FOCUS OF CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST GORGE WILLS NEW BOOK.

HERE HE IS WITH INCITE ON RESENTMENT IN TODAY'S AMERICA.

THANKS, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

THANK YOU.

GLAD TO BE WITH YOU.

YOUR NEW COLLECTION OF ESSAYS IS CALLED 'HAPPINESS AND AMERICAN HAPPINESS AND DISCONTENT.'

IT KIND OF REMIND ME OF THAT PHRASE THE HISTORIAN AND ITS DISCONTENT.

WHY ARE WE SO HIT WITH DISCONTENTS THESE DAYS?

WELL, THESE DAYS, THE TRADITIONAL AMERICAN TENDENCY TO SAY WE'RE NOT MEASURING UP TO OUR IDEALS ENUNCIATED IN THE 18th CENTURY IS AGGRAVATED BY THE FACT THERE SEEM TO BE A LARGE NUMBER OF AMERICAN WHO'S ARE ONLY HAPPY WHEN THEY'RE UNHAPPY, THAT THEY SEEM TO FIND LIFE AFFIRMED BY BEING FURIOUS ALL THE TIME.

I DON'T KNOW WHY.

YOU WAKE UP EVERY MORNING AND SAY HOW HAPPY YOU ARE, YOU TEND TO BE HAPPIER, RIGHT?

EXACTLY.

IN THE 19th CENTURY WE WERE FIGHTING WHETHER ONE SET OF HUMAN BEINGS CAN OWN OTHER HUMAN BEINGS AND WHAT TO DO WITH PUBLIC LAND AND ALL OF THAT THE GRIEVANCES TODAY SEEM TO ME TO BE STRIKINGLY UNSUSCEPTIBLE TO AMELIORATION BY LEGISLATION.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DO TO ASSUAGE THE GRIEVANCES OF PEOPLE AGGRIEVED ABOUT STATUS OR FEELING SLIGHTED OR CONDESCENDED TO OR ASPISED.

DO YOU THINK THE POLARIZATION, THE SPEED OF WHICH THEY TRAVEL IS AT THE TORE OF THIS RESENTMENT AND DISCONTENT WE FEEL?

I DO.

I THINK THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ATTESTS THAT.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS IN QUITE STAGGERING UNIQUE POSITION TODAY IN WHICH I THINK MOST OF THE ELECTED OFFICIALS, CERTAINLY IN CONGRESS, ALSO IN STATE HOUSES, MOST OF THE ELECTION E ELECTED OFFICIALS ARE TERRIFIED OF THEIR VOTERS.

AT LEAST TERRIFIED OF A SOPHISTICATE PORTION OF THEIR VOTERS.

THE ACT OF INTENSE EXACT BASE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IF YOU ARE TERRIFIED OF YOUR VOTERS, YOU DON'T LIKE THEM.

YOU DON'T RESPECT THEM.

THAT'S A VERY STRANGE POSITION FOR A POLITICAL PARTY TO BE IN.

I THINK THAT IS WHERE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS TODAY.

WE'RE LIVING IN TOTAL FEAR OF THE NEXT SULFURIC BELCH FROM MAR-A-LAGO.

GEORGE BUSH ON 9/11 GAVE A PRETTY AMAZING SPEECH IN WHICH HE TALKED ABOUT HOW POLITICS HAS BECOME A NAKED APPEAL TO ANGER, FEAR AND RESENTMENT.

IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?

SUNDAYR AND IS THAT THE SORT OF THE TWO POLLS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, A BUSH POLL AND A TRUMP POLL?

I DON'T THINK THERE IS MUCH FEAR, I THINK IT'S 98% ANGER.

AN UNFOCUSED FURIOUSNESS.

SOME PEOPLE WILL NOT GET VACCINATED BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE SAY GET VACCINATED.

JUST A GENERALIZED TRUCULENCE.

EXPLAIN THAT THINKING TO ME.

I'M NOT SURE IT'S A THINKING.

IT'S A REACTION AGAINST THE OTHER SIDE.

THE OTHER SIDE IS FOR IT.

THE SHIRTS AND THE SKINS.

HOW DO WE START WEAPONIZING AND POLARIZING NORMAL THINGS LIKE SHOULD YOU TAKE A VACCINE?

AGAIN IT'S THE TENDENCY NOW TO DEFINE YOURSELF NOT IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU ARE FOR BUT WHO YOU ARE AGAINST.

A LOT IS CLASS.

AGAIN STATUS, ANXIETY AND STATUS RESENTMENTS.

DRIVEN BY THE FACT THAT SOME PEOPLE SEEM TO BE THRIVING MUCH MORE THAN OTHERS.

BUT, AMERICA HAS ALWAYS HAD WINNERS AND LOSERS.

THIS IS DIFFICULT.

I DON'T QUITE KNOW WHY.

I DON'T WANT TO BE A TECHNOLOGOUS DETERMINOUS HERE.

THIS COINCIDES WITH THE ARRIVAL OF YES 2007 THE FIRST SMARTPHONE ARRIVED AND WE HAVE BEEN GETTING DUMBER EVER SINCE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF BIDEN'S VACCINE MANDATE?

I THINK IT'S EITHER ILLEGAL OR UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

IS IT WISE?

IT'S A WISE ASPIRATION AND I UNDERSTAND HIS IMPATIENCE.

BUT THE CONSTITUTION PARTICULARLY AND THE RULE OF LAW IN GENERAL REQUIRES PATIENCE.

WHAT I MEANT BY IT'S ILLEGAL IF THE CONGRESS DID NOT INTEND TO GRAB THESE EXTRAORDINARY SWEEPING POWERS.

WITHOUT LIBERTY PRINCIPLE TO THE OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION.

IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL IF CONGRESS DID INTEND TO GET THEM.

IN WHICH CASE IT WOULD VIOLATE THE NON-DELEGATION DOCTRINE, BUT SOMETHING THE COURT IS VERY RELUCTANT TO ENFORCE, BUT SOONER OR LATER HAS TO GET BACK TO ENFORCING, HASN'T REALLY DONE SO FOR 60 OR 70 YEARS.

WHAT THAT DOCTRINE SAYS IS THAT CONGRESS CAN IN THE WORDS OF JOHN ROCK, CONGRESS WITH MAKE LAWS, IT CAN NOT MAKE LEGISLATORS.

WHAT CONGRESS HAS BEEN DOING IS FUMING IN THIS CASE TO OSHA IN THE EVICTION CASE TO CDC HAS BEEN DELEGATING ESSENTIALLY LEGISLATIVE POWERS TO EXECUTIVE AGENCIES IN THIS CASE TO SEPARATION OF POWERS.

ALSO TO THE PRINCIPLES OF FEDERALISM.

YEAH, BUT LET'S IMAGINE THAT CONGRESS, ITSELF, DECIDED TO PASS A VACCINE MANDATE.

WOULD THAT MAKE SENSE?

NO, I THINK SUCH POLICE POWERS LONG TO THE STATES.

I AM ALL IN FAVE OF THE STATES IMPOSING VACCINES.

AS I RECALL, IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I WENT TO THIRD GRADE.

AS I RECALL WE'VE DONE OUR CHICKEN POX AND MEASLES VACCINATIONS, NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

AGAIN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SIMPLY DOES NOT HAVE THOSE POLICE POWERS.

DO YOU THINK THAT PRIVATE COMPANIES SHOULD PAN DATE MANDATE VACCINES?

YES.

HOW DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD GET THERE IF I CAN BE EXPOSED TO SOMEBODY THAT DECIDES NOT TO BE VACCINATED?

YOU I CAN TELL ARE VACCINATED.

THIS BRINGS US TO ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IN PRESIDENT BIDEN'S RECENT SPEECH.

HE SAID, HEY, GET VACCINATED.

IT'S SAFE, EFFECTIVE AND FREE BUT THEN HE SAID SIX PARAGRAPHS NATE LATER WE WILL PROTECT THE VACCINATE FAREED THE UNVACCINATED.

WHY DO WE FEED PROTECTED?

THE UNVACCINATED ARE A TERRIFIC THREAT TO THEMSELVES A. THREAT, THEREFORE, TO THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM AND INTENSIVE CARE UNITS AND THEY'RE NOT A GREAT THREAT TO THE ALREADY VACCINATED.

SO ARE YOU AGAINST SEATBELT LAWS AND HELMET LAWS?

I AM UP FOR IT.

IT'S INTO THE STATES.

EVEN A FEDERAL LAW THEN ON SEATBELTS, YOU WOULD FAVOR?

NO, IT'S UP TO THE STATES.

ON, IN TEXAS NOW, THERE IS A NEW ABORTION LAW THAT AMONG OTHER THINGS DELEGATES TO ORDINARY CITIZENS, ALMOST A VIGILANTE WAY TO ENFORCE IT.

GIVE ME YOUR TAKE ON THAT.

WELL, IT'S LUNATIC.

IT'S TRICKY, IT'S A SLIGHT OF HAND IN ORDER TO INSULATE THE LAW FROM CHALLENGES, BECAUSE TEXAS, THE GOVERNOR OF TEXAS SEND SOMEONE ELSE, THE FIRST TIME, WALTER, SOMEONE GOES FOR THIS $10,000 BOUNTY, THERE WILL BE A SUIT AND IT WILL GET TO THE COURT AND IT WILL BE SWATTED DOWN I THINK PROMPTLY.

THE TEXAS LAW IS A SIDE SHOW.

THE BIG EVENT IS COMING UP IN AWE ITEM WHEN WE HAVE ALL THE ARGUMENTS IN THE MISSISSIPPI CASE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN THERE?

I HAVEN'T A CLUE.

WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN?

I'M NOT SURE.

IT SEEMS TO ME, THIS IS CLEAR.

AS RUTH BADER GINSBERG AND JOHN HEART ELI, THEY HANDED DOWN A VERY DISTINGUISHED LAW PROFESSOR IT'S A TERRIBLE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.

IT'S BARELY, IT'S A RAW JUDICIAL POWER.

THE ONLY THING THAT'S TERRIFIED OF ROE V. WADE BEING OVERTURNED.

8,000 LEGISLATORS ALL OF A SUDDEN ROE V. WADE BECOMES A REGULAR ACTIVITY.

I THINK A LOT OF AMERICANS WHO DON'T PAY CLOSE ATTENTION THINK IF ROE V. WADE IS OVERTURNED, ABORTION BECOMES ILLEGAL.

NO IT DOESN'T.

IT BECOMES SOMETHING THE STATES HAVE TO DECIDE ABOUT.

THE LEGISLATORS, PROBABLY A LARGE NUMBER OF THEM WHO SAY THEY WANT ROE V. WADE OVERTURNED ARE IN TREPIDATION, THAT MIGHT HAPPEN AND THEY'D HAVE TO COME ONE A POLICY THROUGH REGULAR POLICY-MAKING.

YOU SAY THE TEXAS APPORTION LAW WITH ITS VIGILANTE ENFORCEMENT, LUNATIC WAS YOUR WORD, DO YOU THINK THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, WHICH TRIED TO FILE SUIT TO STOP IT?

DO YOU THINK THAT MAKES SENSE?

NO.

NO, BECAUSE WHO ARE THEY GOING TO SUE?

WHAT CONSERVATIVES ASK IS THIS.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU SAY CALIFORNIA SAYS, THAT'S A NEAT IDEA WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THESE PRIVATE ATTORNEY GENERAL LAWS AND ANYONE CAN SUE ANYONE GUILTY OF HATE SPEECH OR GUILTY OF VIOLATING 81 CONTROL LAWS AS WE HAVE BEEN IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA.

BOTH SIDES CAN PLAY THIS GAME.

IT'S A RECIPE FOR EVEN MORE SICK DISCORD THAN WE'VE MANAGED TO PRODUCE.

IS THERE ANY LESSON IN THE CALIFORNIA RECALL OF THIS WEEK WHERE NEWSOM WON HANDILY?

WELL, THERE ARE TWO LESSONS.

ONE IS, CALIFORNIA, THANKS TO JOHNSON, THE PROGRESSIVE GOVERNOR FROM EARLY 20th CENTURY INSTITUTED PROGRESSIVE POPULISM AND YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT CONSERVATISM IS IT'S WHATEVER POP LITTLE ISN'T.

POPULISM SAYS THE PASSIONS AND THE DESIRES OF THE PUBLIC ARE CLEAR, SELF GRATIFYING AND SHOULD BE TRANSLATED AS DIRECTLY AS POSSIBLE INTO PUBLIC POLICY.

CONSERVATISM SAYS, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

THE FACT IS PUBLIC SUBPOENA INCOATE.

IT SHOULD BE FILTERED AND FINED AND SLOWED TO REPRESENTATIVE INSTITUTIONS.

SO, POINT NUMBER ONE, THE RECALL, IT'S LIKE GOLF, YOU HIT A BAD SHOT, YOU DECLARE A MULLIGAN.

THE CALIFORNIA DIRECTORATE WANTS TO SAY MULLIGAN, WE WANT TO START OVER ON THE GOVERNOR.

IT SEEMS TO ME ABSENT A STRIP ON THE PART OF THE OFFICE HOLDER, YOU ARE STUCK WITH THE GUY YOU CHOSE, GET OVER IT.

WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT POPULISM AND THAT CONSERVATIVE HAS BEEN SOMETHING THAT DRIVES TO TEMPER POPULISM.

IT SEEMS TO ME THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT HAS BEEN IN SOME WAYS CAPTURED BY POPULISM.

ABSOLUTELY.

THAT'S WHY HE'S BEING CONSERVATIVE.

BECAUSE, BY THE WAY, THE THOUGHT TRANSLATES DIRECTLY INTO EXECUTIVE POWER.

WHICH HAS GROWN FAR TOO LARGE FOR THE CONSTITUTIONAL EQUILIBRIUM OF YOUR MADISON YARN ARCHITECTURE.

MY SECOND POINT IS THIS, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO IS GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA.

IT DOESN'T.

THE GOVERNORS OF CALIFORNIA ARE FUNGIBLE PARTS RUN BY THE GOVERNORS WHO IMPOSE CALIFORNIA.

IF MR. NEWSOM HAD BEEN RECALLED AND LARRY ELDER HAD BECOME GOVERNOR, ELDER CAN SAY, GREAT, I'M FOR SCHOOL CHOICE AND THE LEGISLATURE WITH DEMOCRATIC SUPER MAJORITIES VETO-PROOF MAJORITIES WOULD HAVE SAID, THAT'S AN INTERESTING OPINION.

BUT WE DON'T CARE.

CALIFORNIA IS EVEN MORE THAN MOST BLUE STATES A CRYSTALLINE MODEL OF BLUE STATES, THE BLUE MODEL OF GOVERNANCE, THE PUBLIC EMPLOYEE UNIONS NEGOTIATING WITH THEIR EMPLOYERS.

YOU SAY THAT POPULISM IN SOME WAYS HAS CAPTURED WHAT USED TO BE THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IT'S ALSO THERE ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE.

AP SENSE OF POPULISM ANTI-ELITE, ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT.

YOU KNOW, IN AMERICAN HISTORY, POPULISM HASN'T HAD A GREAT RUN, AT LEAST SINCE ANDREW JACKSON.

WHEN IS THE LAST TIME YOU HAD AN OUTRIGHT POP LIFT ELECTED PRESIDENT BOTH PARTIES ARE BECOMING MORE POPULOUS.

WHY IS THAT?

IT'S EASY.

THAT IS NO ONE EVER GOT IN TROUBLE?

AMERICA BY SAYING THAT THE PEOPLE ARE THE WISE AND SHOULD GO WITH MARIJUANA AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

OF COURSE, THAT CALLS BACK TO MIND THE DEFINITION OF DEMOCRACY, WHICH IS THE BELIEVE THE PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEY WANT DESERVE TO GET IT GOOD AND HARD.

WE'VE HAD ONE GREAT SUCCESSFUL POPULIST IN THE PREMIER STATE OF LOUISIANA.

HUGHEY LONG TRANSLATED POPULISM INTO A POLITICAL REGIME THAT IS PRETTY CLOSE TO A BAND AID POLICE STATE FOR A WHILE IN LOUISIANA.

NOT PRETTY.

DO YOU THINK THIS TYPE OF POPULISM WITH AN AUTHORITARIAN TINGE HAS PEAKED IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS WELL AND THAT PEOPLE LIKE GEORGE BUSH OR PAUL RYAN ARE ABLE TO PUSH BACK AT IT?

NOT YET.

NOT NEARLY YET.

THE QUESTION IS, DONALD TRUMP IS AN ENTERTAINER AND ONE THING AN ENTERTAINER CAN'T BE IS BORING AND PREDICTABLE.

HE HAS ONE PEDAL ON THE ORGAN.

HE HAS WORKED IT AFTER 20 YEARS, TO BE FAIR TO HIM.

IT USED TO BE JAPAN WAS GOING TO RUN ALL OVER US.

NOW IT'S CHINA.

THESE ARE MINOR TWEAKS TO HIS BASIC MESSAGE AND I THINK WE MAY BE RESCUED BY BORDOM.

THE WONDERFUL HUMAN CAPACITY.

WE MAY BE THE ONLY CREATURES WHO HAVE THE WONDERFUL HUMAN CAPACITY TO GET BORED.

AND I THINK DONALD TRUMP WAS ON THE WAY TO BECOMING A BORE.

THERE IS A PROTEST COMING UP THIS WEEKEND AND IT HAS CAUSED A FENCE TO GO AROUND THE CAPITAL.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

HOW DO WE PROTECT OUR CAPITAL STILL EXULTING OUR DEMOCRACY?

WELL, THAT FENCE IS AN OBSCENITY.

WHOEVER PUT IT UP SHOULD BE FENCED IN AND ROLLED UP WITH IT AND CARTED AWAY.

THE IDEA WITH THE I THINK SO SHOULD LOOK LIKE A BANANA REPUBLIC WITH A CAPITAL CONSTANTLY TREMBLING BECAUSE THERE IS REGIMENT AT THE END OF TOWN.

WHAT CAPITAL ARE WE?

I THINK IT'S THE GREATEST SECULAR BUILDING IF PUBLIC USE IN THE WORLD, IT'S A MAGNIFICENT BUILDING.

IT'S THE EPICENTER OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

IDEA IS WHENEVER A GROUP OF ANGRY PEOPLE COME TO WALK, WE HAVE TO PRETEND AS THOUGH IT HAS TO BE FORTIFIED BUT MY GOOD LORD, IF THE POLICE AREN'T BETTER AT CONTROLLING THE CROWDS.

YOU SAW WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th.

EXACTLY BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th, WE ARE KNOWN TO BE ALERT TO IT AND PREVENT IT.

IT'S NOT AN EXCUSE, JANUARYFth IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR MAKING US LOOK LIKE AN EMBATTLED ARMED CAMP.

BUT DO YOU BLAME SOME OF THE POLITICIANS, INCLUDING TRUMP, THAT SEEM TO, YOU KNOW, EXCITE US?

OF COURSE.

OF COURSE.

HE INCITED THAT RIOT.

I BLAME HIM.

OF COURSE, HE OBVIOUSLY INCITED IT.

HE DID IT ON TELEVISION.

WE ALL WATCHED IT.

I WATCHED EVERY MINUTE OF THAT DAY.

PAUL RYAN AND OTHERS DID.

PAUL RYAN TOLD ME HIS RESPONSE WAS HE WEPT TO SEE THIS HAPPEN TO THAT GREAT BIDDING.

WHY ARE PEOPLE INCITING AGAIN?

BECAUSE THEY'RE MORONS AND IRRESPONSIBLE.

THAT'S WHY.

AGAIN THE FACT THAT THESE PEOPLE DO THESE THINGS IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR MAKING THIS WASHINGTON LOOK LIKE A FRAGILE BRITTLE EXAM.

IT'S NEITHER.

GEORGE, AS ALWAYS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

ENJOYED IT.

LET'S DO IT AGAIN.

NO ONE WANTS TO SEE A REPEAT OF JANUARY 6th.

THAT IS FOR SURE, ONE OF THE DARKEST DAYS OF U.S. HISTORY.

THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.