FDNY’s First Female Commissioner on Diversifying the Dept.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, HOST: And turning next to New York City where the mayor has now asked the police and fire departments to enforce a state law to intervene and possibly commit someone involuntarily if they’re deemed to be suffering from a mental health crisis. Laura Kavanagh as the city’s new fire department commissioner. First woman in the role and the youngest to serve in over a century. Michel Martin joined the commissioner to discuss her historic appointment.

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MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thank, Christiane. Commissioner Laura Kavanagh, thank you so much for talking with us today.

LAURA KAVANAGH, FDNY COMMISSIONER: Thank you for having me

MARTIN: It’s — I — it’s one of those things that little boys, you know, grow up thinking they are going to be a firefighter. You know, they get the little red hat, you know, in Halloween. It’s a classic little boy costume for Halloween. So, I don’t know that too many little girls have been encouraged to grow up and think they are going to be firefighters, let alone fire commissioners. So, do you mind if I ask you, what did you want to be when you growing up?

KAVANAGH: Oh. Well, I mean, similar to what you just mentioned, I actually put in a bit — envisioned this as a career for myself. So, I do think that’s changing. You know, I talked to a lot of young women and I find that what they envision for themselves in the future is far vaster than I envisioned. And that gives me a lot of hope, right. It means, within a generation, the idea of what people believe they can be someday is changing. And that makes me really excited. But, you know, I actually had a love for animals when I was younger. So, my career definitely didn’t involve them at any point. But certainly, when I was that age, you know, that was where my interest lie. But I would say there is a theme through my entire career which is that I did always want to do something that I felt good about. And I’ve sort of followed that gut throughout my career. And the FDNY, when the opportunity came was an obvious organization that I would feel good about working for because of what they do every day and how incredible it is.

MARTIN: So, you joined the FDNY in 2014 as the director of external affairs. What attracted you to that role? I mean, to that point, you had been in the public service in a variety of different positions. But what attracted you to that role at that time?

KAVANAGH: It was — you know, exactly what I just said that while it wasn’t on where I expected to go on, sort of, my future list. When somebody said, FDNY to me, I thought just deep down in my gut that has to be an important job. They do these incredible things every day. These, you know, acts of bravery of bringing people back to life. And I think that, you know, when you feel good about what you do at work, you know, you do enjoy your job. And so, when somebody said, FDNY to me, it just seemed natural to me to take that leap even though it was something different because the organization does such good things. It’s such a part of New York City, too. You know, it’s really a part of the DNA of this city and I love that.

MARTIN: And then — just this, while you became New York City’s first female commissioner in the department’s 157-year history. You’re at 40, you’re also one of the youngest commissioners. And this is the largest fire department in the country. And I just, you know, have to ask what has it been like? I mean, obviously, you’re taking on this role has attracted a great deal of attention. Just what’s it been like?

KAVANAGH: Yes. So, the in — you know, that part has been an adjustment. It’s really incredible to think that I’m first. That I could inspire other people to do the same. I think that does take a little bit of adjusting. But what I would say is that, you know, I feel such a — I am so proud of the idea that I could open the door for anyone else. I should also say lots of people opened the door for me. You know, while I was the first, there are many other women who have come and have paved the way at the fire department in order to even allow this to be possible. So, you know, when it comes to the work, I feel very confident. You know, I’ve been at the fire department for a while. I know how to advocate for the needs of my members. You know, I have a good sense of what should happen every day in order to lead the organization forward. But certainly, that attention, and being in the spotlight is — you know, is a little bit of an adjustment for me. But, like I said, if I can help somebody else think that this is possible for them then, you know, that makes me feel really good about, kind of, the legacy I can leave behind. We open the door a little bit for everybody who comes after us.

MARTIN: Yet on the one hand, that I’m sure that your appointment is tremendously inspirational, you know, for some. But as I think, our first black president, our first whoever, to – you know, a first female speaker of the house has found out and also sometimes attracts some not so exciting things or some not so positive things. Sometimes it invites a backlash. I’m just curious if you’ve heard any of that so far?

KAVANAGH: You know, so, I’m — you know, copying Commissioner Sewell, another first, our police commissioner, in saying that, you know, the light is a little bit brighter and a little bit hotter when you’re the first. But I think that I can handle it. So, I agree with you. You know, it can be different to be the first and certainly there is a little more attention on you because of that. But I am OK with that, you know. I think in order to get at this point in my career, I knew, you know, what might be great about this job, what might be a little difficult, and I understood that going in as eyes wide open.

MARTIN: You didn’t come up through the ranks as a firefighter. So, what skillset do you think is it that caused the mayor to appoint you to this job?

KAVANAGH: Yes, it’s a fair question. I think, you know, one I had point out, there had been a number of civilian commissioners of this agency. So, it’s not as unusual as it may seem. But, you know, certainly being the first woman and being a civilian, people do ask that question. And what I always say is that, you know, the fire department is the largest fire department in the country. It’s almost the largest fire department in the world. It’s certainly, I think, the leader in the fire service. We are in an enormous organization. There’s 17,000 people. We have a $2.3 billion budget. And my role, and any commissioner’s role is about running the agency. We have men and women in the field who put out fires, who respond to medical emergencies, firefighters, EMTs, paramedics, fire marshals. They are doing, you know, the work of responding to emergencies. And that’s their expertise and they do it well. And that, you know, that is not my role. My role is to support them in helping them do that more safely. Making sure they have the equipment to do it. And it’s really leading a large organization into the future. And I think, you know, the mayor recognized that that’s something I’ve been doing my whole career. And I think, you know, many folks in city government, that is really where their expertise lies. It’s about, you know, having the decades of experience running large organizations and managing, you know, problem sets and navigating through really difficult times like the pandemic. And, you know, that’s where — that’s how I’ve always worked. So, to me, this is natural next step.

MARTIN: What are your priorities in this role? It’s interesting that firefighting hasn’t, sort of, been at the tip of spear in a way policing has been in recent years. Would you agree? I mean, it’s — you know, firefighting is such a critical role but in the urban context, that’s not what we’ve really been talking about. I mean, we’re talking — we’ve been talking a lot about forest fires. We’ve been talking a lot about, you know, western firefighting. But policing has really kind of been in the spotlight in recent years. So, what are your major challenges and what are your top priorities?

KAVANAGH: Yes, I think what’s critical, you know, to note is that we’re — at a really important juncture, I think in our city’s, you know, legacy coming out of COVID and looking at what does the city look like for the next 10 years. And that deeply affects and agency like ours. I think while certainly the firefighter running into a fire is the, you know, icon of the FDNY, really we’re an all hazards emergency response agency. And that can mean anything from putting out a fire to responding to a medical emergency, to responding both of — to both of those things in really unique circumstance, right. As we built taller buildings, we obviously have the subways that were underground, we’re 100 stories above. There are all kinds of complex emergencies that the FDNY has the responsibility to respond to. And you know that’s really where I us going over the next 10 years. Those, you know, complexities of emergencies in the city only continue to grow. And that’s really the mission I’m trying to meet. And, you know, that means giving our firefighter, EMTs, and paramedics new equipment to make sure they can do their jobs safely. It’s putting information into their hand which we do now via smartphones so that when they respond to a building, they can better understand what that building looks like. What’s the interior of that building like. What are some of the circumstances that might make doing their job more dangerous or more complicated. Certainly, bringing in the diversity of the city into the ranks of the FDNY and then working more collaboratively with our communities to prevent fires and medical emergencies. Those are all things I’ve worked on in my time here. And really, I’m passionate about expanding as I took over.

MARTIN: It is also the case that women in the fire service in some places have been subjected to some vicious harassment, it’s just a fact. I mean, there was a terrible story, I assume you’re aware of it, in 2016 in a — in what, has otherwise been a highly regarded fire service in the Virginia area where a young firefighter woman took her own life. It was revealed that she had been subjected to, kind of, a vicious campaign of harassment in her own house. And that other women firefighters came forward to say that they have been subjected to similar conduct. And I wonder given that women firefighters are still so few, even in New York City, which is more diverse than most. Have you heard reports about this? And if so, what does your — what’s your sense of how to address it?

KAVANAGH: Yes, it’s something I think about a lot. And when I talk to members in the field, when I talk to our staff here, that is what I talk about. You know, is that we need to be proactive in identifying the areas where we might not be needing that high-bar that I believe we generally meet and should continually be the example for. We really are the example for the fire service. And that’s a huge responsibility. And I think we need to live up to it. So, you know, really my call to our members is whether, you know, things are good in their firehouse, but maybe no somewhere else’s that we all have a responsibility to figure out how we’re doing, how are all of the members in our firehouses being treated? How are they feeling about their jobs? And it’s really our responsibility to, you know, set the example for the fire service and change those circumstances wherever we may find them proactively and not reactively. And I think that’s, you know, something our members can really — I — when speak to firehouses about it, they really understand that and they agree. You know, they love this department. They love the work they do. They feel great pride in it. And I think everybody wants to continue to feel that.

MARTIN: We’ve been talking a lot about gender but it is also the case that the racial and ethnic diversity of the department is not, in any way, reflective of the city. I mean, I think, what — you got, what? Eight percent of your firefighters are African American. I think, what, 14 percent are identified as Hispanic or Latino. Why is that? I mean it just seems odd in a city that as diverse as — racially and ethnically diverse as New York is.

KAVANAGH: The fire service, writ large, struggles with this issue. They’ve long been behind, you know, behind their other uniformed counterparts as you pointed out in diversifying across race and gender. I think also what you pointed out is something that we found in our recruitment campaigns is — this job is so incredible. But there’s not often much that’s known about how you actually do it. And so, what I found out in our recruitment campaigns, and those — you know, those have begun to make great strides, I should point out. You know, we’ve tripled the number of women since I came on the job. We have increased the number of black, Latino, and Asian candidates by 15 percent. So, we’ve made a big leap. We just need to go much further. And what I would say makes the biggest difference of all is actually just getting into communities and talking to people about the job. And what I find is most people have not considered it. Most people didn’t know whether or not it was a job that was available to them. And so, you know, I think that we can, you know, actually look at the model of the fire department where people have gone into this job because other people in their communities were in it and talked to them about. And we’re really just trying to take that and replicate it throughout all the communities in New York City. And we do find that when we do that, you see big increases in diversity. Once people realize not only how great this job is, but that it is available to them. It is not a job that you need a family member to recommend to you. It is a job anybody can apply for. We see huge increases in people across all, you know, race and gender categories looking to be interested in doing this work.

MARTIN: Obviously, one of the major tragedies that affected this department was 9/11. I mean, we are more than 20 years on from 9/11, you were a very young woman when that happened. But this department has lived with that for the last 20 years and I just wonder if you still feel that the department is marked by that in what way?

KAVANAGH: Oh, I — incredibly so. You know, 9/11 is very much present here every day. It does not feel like 21 years ago. Losing 343 people on one day when it is — it’s so difficult when we lose one member. You know, to just even try to imagine how the department could go on from that, it is really difficult. You know, I think it — there’s two things I’d say. Is one, part of the reason that 9/11 is very present in this department is not only because of the tragedy of that day but also because we continue to lose members from World Trade Center Cancer on a pretty regular basis. And so, 9/11 is truly still with us and will be with us for some time. It is still taking our members. And it’s something that we talk about a lot. We’re talking about, you know, mental health aspect of dealing with that sort of loss. But I — You know, I also think that what is so incredible to me about the fire department is their ability to rebound from such an epic loss, you know? I think no one would have blamed the fire department if they had not been able to respond to emergencies in the days and weeks after, and yet they did. You know, they still staffed every ambulance. Every fire truck still went out the door. And so, it’s really a testament, I think, to the resilience of the organization which, you know, unfortunately has been learned through many losses. But it also, I think, is really become part of the fabric is we do understand how to be there for one another. And I see a really powerful support and connection between our members that, I think, really gets them through. And, you know, I think is really a lesson for all of us about how to come together more as a community during these tough times. I think it’s certainly a great lesson coming out of COVID where people feel very disconnected. They feel like they don’t have a community. People don’t really feel that way in the fire department. I don’t feel that way. This feels like a very close-knit community where when something tragic happens, everybody shows up. And it’s a great, you know, it’s a great lesson and it’s one, you know, forged out of the toughest of times.

MARTIN: And if you and I were to talk a year from now, two, five years from now, what kind of conversation do you hope we’ll have? What do you hope we’ll be talking about?

KAVANAGH: I hope that we’re talking about me having been able to lead — leave a great organization a little bit better than I found it. You know, I think I’m very conscience of the long history of this organization. And I understand that, you know, while it is a great thing, a historic thing for me to be leading it right now, you know, we’re all really just stewards of this agency. It has been here for a long time. It will be here for a long time. And what I hope is that I can just leave it a little bit better than I found it. That it’s a little bit safer for our members. A little bit, you know, a little bit more innovation, more tools, more diversity that I can move these things forward just a little bit and leave it in the hands of someone else who’s great and hopefully another first.

MARTIN: And maybe more little girls will get those little plastic red fire hats that —

KAVANAGH: Absolutely.

MARTIN: — will be sporting those at Halloween, right?

KAVANAGH: Yes.

MARTIN: Commissioner Laura Kavanagh, thank you so much for talking with us today.

KAVANAGH: Thank you. I appreciate it.